Why Are Parallel Fifths Bad Voice Leading?

[thisisntagoodname]

If you made a video on HOW to avoid writing parallel 5ths (though I'll assume that'd be a bit more difficult to do), I'd be very appreciative.

In my theory classes we have to write four part voice leading and I spend an extra hour or so checking the intervals of EVERY single part, melodically and harmony just so I can avoid parallel 5ths and 8ves.

[Funmichi]

i like the melody with the parallel fifths. i dont understand it why it is weak or should be avoided.

[AliTaylor777]

@Funmichi Neither did Beethoven....

[ixsetf]

@Funmichi The main problem with parallel fifths in classical music is that they tend to blend the voices together, this doesn't make any individual melody sound bad. However, if you want to create music based off of counterpoint it should have independent melodies, and parallel fifths detract from independence. If you want to write popular music this doesn't matter since counterpoint isn't used.

[SplinterCell37]

Wow. This makes so much sense.

[ChronoGXay]

I think these videos are INVALUABLE, because they have the viewer(s) participate in demonstrating why parallel fifths are so difficult to sing, so that the viewer(s) can experience the difficulty for themself! Brilliant! :D

[MrArtEffete]

What you're explaining are devices composers developed to make themselves 'free' of static harmony, or break through a wall. From the viewpoint of a student seeing this, static harmony seems as freedom from it. Its a regression they can perceive as a step forward. Its how we got minimalism; but students are going to have to 'grow backwards' to go forward. Its bad teaching saying things are 'bad' and not qualifying that response. All music can use the same stuff. Teach creativity with music.

[ComposerOnline]

@MrArtEffete

I wouldn't agree that the parallel fifth rule and other similar rules were developed from a desire to break from static harmony. These rules came before static harmony was even 'invented". They emerged from the art of polyphony, which only later became codified as vertical chord structures. Not sure about going backwards to go forward. I would call that artistic devolution or regression. I believe art always evolves, never repeating itself.

[ComposerOnline]

@MrArtEffete

My friend, this is YouTube, not Wikipedia! Don't forget we are limited to 500 characters per comment, and this medium is meant to be thought-provoking, not an ultimate source of truth. But are you aware that students of composition must study counterpoint, and parallel fifths are one of the cardinal sins in that style?

[ComposerOnline]

@MrArtEffete

I take both your joke and your point. I see that I am assuming too much when I say that it is obvious that 4 well-fashioned melodies, interacting in complex and subtle ways is more interesting that 4 melodies all moving in exactly the same way, without individuality. To prove this is to try to define the very essence of Art.

[ComposerOnline]

Honestly, theres nothing wrong with parallel fifths. There just a limit to the harmonic density and harmonic movement one can state/imply with it. Saying they are just 'bad' is being musically weak and problematic person. BTW- there's a funtional use if you understand sum/difference tones which result from just the 1&5 sounding simultaneously. Please, stop making videos.

@MrArtEfferte

[ComposerOnline]

@MrArtEfferte

You are right, there's nothing "wrong" with parallel fifths in the context of Gregorian Chant, Power Rock, Heavy Metal, Modern Jazz or Contemporary Music, but I'm referring to the style of J.S. Bach, i.e. Baroque and Early Classical music. The word 'bad' must be taken in context. In 4-part harmony, singers will not thank you for writing parallel 5ths. It just isn't as interesting as independent lines. It's obvious, no?

Could you explain what sum/difference tones are?

[MrArtEffete]

@ComposerOnline Sum and difference tones are the result of superimposed soundwaves. As in: sound two waves of different frequencies at the same time, and those two frequencies will actually werge in the air, producing a wave that is: F'+F'' and F'- F'', where F=frequency. When you do this with a root and fifth, a note one octave lower than the root is produced (F'-F''), which is why power chords (root/5th) sound so 'fat', there is a note which can be heard that is one octave lower than the root

[ComposerOnline]

@MrArtEffete

Fascinating! I was not aware of this phenomenon.

[MrMikomi]

Interesting, thanks for the video.

[Coppertunes]

I would rather listen to Parallel Fifths than rap.

[leetfeetman]

is this supposed to be Soprano, Alto, Tenor and Bass? or Tenor1/Tenor Tenor2/Lead Bass1/Baritone and Bass2/Bass? because im coming from a barbershop video to this @.@ also there is nothing hard about this style :/ I fail to see why Parallel Fifths are bad. It takes practice to sing this =.= you just played the tenor line once and the bass line once and expect people to memorize that? especially considering the fact that many people have no musical experience. also the bass line was too high

[leetfeetman]

during the second run though of your "harmony"... majority of basses and I mean TRUE basses cant hit that high... thats more of Baritone and Tenor2/lead notes... Basses would have to sing in Falsetto to hit those notes... and the Tenor's notes are more like Tenor1/Tenor notes :/ I am a Tenor2/Lead and I cant hit those notes without singing in Falsetto... You did not support your argument very well and left many holes... It may be hard to sing in Parallel Fifths, but it can be done if there was

[leetfeetman]

enough practice time... Your argument is invalid due to no solid information other than your fabricated "its easier to sing this way and not that way" argument... I dislike the fact that your video explored all the areas... not enough info, no solid facts, and faulty way of proving your argument dissuades me from believing that your argument should be true... Ive seen many videos of people singing in Parallel Fifths and singing them fantastically...

[ChronoGXay]

@leetfeetman - You just defeated yourself with your own argument. ("It may be hard to sing in Parallel Fifths, but it can be done IF THERE WAS ENOUGH PRACTICE TIME"). You need to do more research... It IS in fact easier to sing a piece of music when it isn't strewn with Parallel/Consecutive/Hidden Fifths and Octaves. Listen to popular music where the guitarist is moving one chord shape up and down the neck for I-IV-V. Even when using IV/IV, IV/V, IV/V, and V/V, does it not sound rather odd?

[phlipashiz]

I couldn't do tenor, but bass was easy

[cnmaster01]

@stealthedscout evidently someone did enough to remind me I said it a month later. Jus sayin'

[DICACIO1]

What's so hard about singing those simple parts? If people can't remember those easy bass lines or tenor parts, then why are they in a choir? Music has to be unique and original, it can't always take the same boring coarse or formulas.

Ok, ok...I'll just pretend I can't remember them. ha ;)

BTW: Mozart used perfect fifths a lot. Was it to piss people off? Probably, Yes. LOL

[cnmaster01]

I for one found the tenor line easy to sing

[ComposerOnline]

V 4/2 to I 6/3 is "ineffective" because the inverted I chord is weak. I've posted a video that explains (and plays) different kinds of cadences, so you can compare the sounds of weak and strong cadences:

See YouTube video: What's a Perfect Authentic Cadence?

[vampiracy]

Can you do a video on why a V 4/2 to a I 6/3 is an ineffective cadence?

[ZachEatonMusic]

Awesome video -- I subbed you ^_^ It'll be good for me to look at your videos. It will be good for my music, possibly! =D

Thanks for sharing!

[leggings85]

Fuck how really cares about parallel fifths nowadays? This was a musical rule set up by early baroque composers (or even earlier)...As a modern day composers no one is interested in parallel fifths anymore. Take a look at the work of Debussy, Mahler, Strauss, even Haydn...Especially the French impressionists used parallel fifths en masse to create new musical landscapes and harmonies...

[manthasagittarius]

@leggings85 Know why they called it the "common practice"? Nobody set it up as a set of rules. The practice developed through centuries, as counterpoint became complex, in the direction of independence of the parts as melodies on their own. The "rules" were later codifications of what was already in play. You throw the name of Mahler around at your peril, btw -- that was the very canon of late 19th century counterpoint, and it follows the principles of linear independence with great beauty.

[wcbroccoli]

@leggings85 ...and a lot of ugly music. You make no distinction between sonority and counterpoint.

[VioletFox19]

Final point, just had to point it out. I'm sure Captain America would like to think that it's the only culture capable of forging new musical styles, but believe me, the rest of the world isn't caught up in the 1500's anymore either. Especially if you're going to bring up syncopation...Think more Africa then America. These guidelines are not supposed to limit musicians. They are merely for composers writing in a specific style. Making a big deal out of nothing is how you say,"Musically Juvenile'

[VioletFox19]

Second, let me just point out on your slam to the world's current Pop Stars, Justin Bieber is a kid who (novelty or not) was asked "Hey, do you want a FUCKLOAD of money to sing?" What kind of 16 old would pass that up... Also, "Lady Garbage" is a very talented musician and member of an increasingly smaller list of Pop stars that write their own music/lyrics. Hell she was even the writer for other Pop stars (i,e, Britney Spears). Those two are living proof of your point by the way.

[VioletFox19]

Well Brunostung2... Let me be the first to say put the freakin' hounds back on the leash. There's no dictator trying to tell you what music sounds good to every single person on the planet and that you are forbidden to work outside of these "guidelines". If it helps you rest peacefully tonight, know you can be as creative as you want, and that just because you aren't following classical theory from hundreds of years ago you're music will still probably sound very good.

[brunostung]

I will also add that it was a very well put together video, and it makes perfect sense. It is very straight ahead theory. Though when an intelligent and creative composer uses consecutive fifths they can actually be used to create something extremly interesting, fresh and new. Just like "avoid tones" (tones a half step above a chord tone) if you are aware beauty lays within.

[brunostung]

Old and tired classical theory. It does make sense, but american music has moved beyond this, has it not? This is like saying a major and minor third won't work together. Also the tritone is used all of the time and our ears love it. Also syncapated beats are accepted. I hate justin bee and lady garbage by the way.... Im not saying that parallel fifths sound exiting or anything, but to say that they are BAD and wrong is just musically juvinile. Grow up its not hurting anyone, and its not wrong.

[theinck]

The 3 dislikes are from people who don't understand this. Probably Justin Bee Bee, Lady Gar Gar and Pink.

[kratanuva725]

Except you forget to mention that the reason why parallel fifths obscure line independence is because fifths have a very simple frequency ratio (3/2). Same with octaves (2/1)

[markoparko]

Parallel fifths are of the Devil!

[PrivateBuckwheat]

Really interesting; I had never thought about this but it is really simple to understand when you sing along.

[doctortrumpet]

Parallel 5ths and 8ves sound just GREAT!

[eolianwold]

This explanation is not correct. Anyone, with practice, can sing parallel 5ths over a baseline. The correct explanation is that parallel 5ths, depending on your ear, can sound jarring, even dissonant. Parallel 5ths are to be avoided in all types of voice leading, not just vocal, if one is imitating a style of music, e.g. baroque, where they were not used. Parallel 5ths were common in vocal singing in the medieval era and are ubiquitous in the harmonies of modern (e.g. pop) music.

[gmajor2011]

"hard to sing" explanations are common in counterpoint textbooks, but in written form it never really comes across. "Huh?" is often the reaction to such books, but this video is frighteningly clear on why it is so. Thank you. Come to think of it, it's amazing how people like Bach picked up on something like this. I understand its because some of them worked with amateur singers who needed their lines to be as distinguishable as possible.

[thedrumbum1990]

Excellent video. THanks for posting!

[LonelyPker]

This makes so much more sense now. Thank you!

[ComposerOnline]

I'm glad you found this video interesting! All too often we are asked to follow rules without understanding the reasons WHY. As composers, we must always question the aesthetics behind what we take as acceptable or unacceptable. A good example of this is the rule on hidden fifths, where there are different opinions about the exceptions to the hidden fifths rule, based on different theorists's musical perception.

See video: Why Are Consecutive and Hidden Fifths (and Octaves) Bad?

[xentryst]

Thanks for taking the time to put these up . They are very helpful!

[kongming819]

A very very excellent video! I always wondered why this is, but now it makes perfect sense. An excellent way to describe it!

But we all know that they're bad because people like kittens, and not a murderous Bach :)

[KiptaviusFuzz]

This is a good video. Very informative. It should have more views.