a little leaven leavens the whole bunch, mixing a little truth with an abundance of lies, they are not for Jesus or you, they have an agenda, the new world order, follow Jesus, read the Bible, test the spirits of these teachings, and you will see their errors..1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Why do so many Christians get angry when they have a different belief than another Christian? They use all CAPS and sometimes call names. They tell the person they are headed for Hell and God will judge them. Why not love and state your case but do it in a graceful way? It's no wonder so many people don't want anything to do with Christianity. Jesus is amazing but His followers, not so much.
@PenSword35 a little leaven leavens the whole bunch, mixing a little truth with an abundance of lies, they are not for Jesus or you, they have an agenda, the new world order, follow Jesus, read the Bible, test the spirits of these teachings, and you will see their errors..1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
very intellectual and very wrong. The gospel has always been very open and very easy to understand. There is no hidden message of Jesus that has been kept a secret. Here is prime example of the arrogance of intellect verses the simplicity of spiritual truths. Spiritual thuths always upset the intellectual who worships his great thinking mind. The great thinking mind is so valuable but there are simple spiritual truths that will not register on the great thinking minds. Heretic heretic heretic
If we put aside our desire to play "hang the heretic," then we'll see that he's actually CORRECT. The scriptures teach that Christ's gospel or "good news" was about the Kgdm of God or literally, the "reign of God" on Earth. (See Mat 4:23, 9:35, Mk 1:14-15, Lk 4:43, 7:22, 8:1...)
The Kgdm of God and Kgdm of Heaven were similes... Kind of like when we say, "we have a message from the president," and "we have a message from the White House."
Nothing heretical here. Just out of the box thinking.
@Pray4Revival a little leaven leavens the whole bunch, mixing a little truth with an abundance of lies, they are not for Jesus or you, they have an agenda, the new world order, follow Jesus, read the Bible, test the spirits of these teachings, and you will see their errors..1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
@Pray4Revival Satans the only one trying to usher in a "kingdom", read Revelation, Jesus destroys them in an instant, a little leaven leavens the whole bunch, mixing a little truth with an abundance of lies, they are not for Jesus or you, they have an agenda, test the spirits of these teachings, and you will see their errors..1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
I am angry anyone would portray themselves as a Christian and speak this way. The gospel is so clear. We don't need fancy words-lots of confusing fancy words-to share the love of Christ. What was his point in sharing this anyway. I couldn't understand what he was really getting at-and I am glad for that!
I just want you to cite me one person that actually witnessed the Birth and indeed resurection of the so called christ. not to mention all of the miracles attributed to him/it...And why if he was the son of God who createdthe Universe, could only muster up feeding a group of people and rising people from the dead...Not very cool for the son of God. that's like the prodigy of bill Gates working in a
If Brian is this dissatisfied with Christianity then he is a doubter and needs some strong Bibical teaching from someone like Chuck Missler or Carter Conlan- he is confusing the gospel for those truly seeking and will therefore be accountable to the Lord for that
Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits - if you think swearing pleases him then you should study Scripture which tells you not to speak with foul language
WARNING!! Brian McLaren is not a REAL Christian! He is making up lies about the Bible and is now attacking Christians for believing in Jesus and his return and denies that The state of Israel and the jewish people are God's chosen as stated in the Bible. Brian Mclaren is also Obama's new assistant on a new bill passed called the hate crime bill and stated he wants to destroy the Christian majority and its belief as Jesus will return. He is a Heretic! Brian Mclaren is a wolf in sheeps clothing
notice he doesnt talk about the most importent thing jesus addressed SIN, and REPENTING, and people needing a savior, wy did god have to die a horrible death what was he saving us from, how bad must sin and the judgment be when god would die such a way as to save us sinners, this guy is diverting people away from the most importent things of the gosple
it case you didnt know, the big importent message god was sharing with people will he was here on earth befor he died a horrible death was are you ready ! A ECOSYSTEM, thats right folks, NOT sin or truely repenting of how we have affended a holy GOD, and that we need a savior but a ECOSYSTEM, thats what god was talking about in those parables, WOW this guy is something els
god talks quite fine to this day and age, thats wy its called the livivng word , god is always talking to his children, i think the god who created the heavens and earth was smart enough to know what he was doing when he wrote the bible, and how it would apply to this age and the age to come, this guy is what a dummy, he needs to go study the word of god, rather than twist it out of context, there will be many decievers in the last days , watch out, see if it checks out with the bible
and I bet he is married, so then he thinks people that are not married, by authority of "church", a priest, can counsel married people, when they dont know about marriage!
And this guy thinks making statues of Mary and placing them all over a church building is okay, even though Jesus clearly called Mary woman many times, in the BIBLE
As we see repentance acted out in the scriptures we see that it is a turning from sin, because we've offended a Holy God. Maclaren has a much broader use of repentance by changing it to "rethinking". He wants to get people to "rethink" the Gospel and try and broaden the Narrow way. Maclaren is not a preacher of righteousness nor does he address sin the way the bible does.
Repentance is a different word than repent. The greek for repentance is "metavnoia."
In any case, isn't it true that you simply disagree with how Mr. McClaren interrupts scripture. You were taught to interpret one way and he suggests another.
Who of us followers can claim to understand God's ultimate will. We cannot begin to fathom God's true self. Not that we should try to understand.
I just don't think it's fair to pretend anyone has the absolute truth. You, me, McClaren.
When I say "repentance" or "repent", I am using them synonomously. They aren't entirely different conepts. To come to Christ you must be willing to "repent" but your life should be marked by "repentance". It's a one time thing and an ongoing thing.
Yes I do assert that the way Maclaren interprets scripture is wrong. The words on the page have meaning. To clarify that we see these meanings acted out by the people in the bible. People like Maclaren shove their own ideas into the scripture and make it appear tha that's the way it's "always been". The scriptures are not as complicated as these type of guys make it. Many people have become born again believers simply by reading the bible. The plain teachings are enough to convert the soul.
I'm sorry, are you implying that you have accept to the mind of God. You fully understand all elements of scripture. You are intelligent, but come on.
Jesus did not come to convert souls. He came to save us. He came to show us love. He came to show us a better way.
I don't understand the first part of your question.
Jesus came to seek and save the lost and to call sinners to repentance. He came to do that which we are incapable of doing; that is to satisfy the righteous requirements of God.
Type-o. "Are you implying that you have access to the mind of God?"
I ask b/c you commented, "The scriptures are not as complicated as these type of guys make it."
I know that you are intelligent, but before you can make claims that others are heretics, shouldn't you be a scholar in ancient greek & hebrew, shouldn't you have a full understanding of the historical, political, and cultural atmosphere in which the scriptures were written?
Even w/ all that, we don't fully understand God's grace
That seems to be a common thought with people these days that one must know "all" things in order to affirm "some" things. Jesus didn't say "after you receive your PHD, watch out for wolves in sheeps clothing". Jude talks about "certain persons creeping in UNNOTICED".
Christians are to CONTEND EARNESTLY for THE faith. So while I don't have "all" knowledge that does not disqualify me from standing firm on what I do know.
I understand that. I too don't know it "all." I was suggesting it might be unfair to call someone a heretic when we admittedly don't know all the facts.
In any case, God doesn't need us to defend him. God does, however want us to love each other. I think our time is better spent servicing & loving than "earnestly contending for the faith."
I would have to respectfully disagree with you on almost every point you made. First, the point about "contending for the faith" is from Jude. That is a mandate for all christians, not just the people he wrote to. Sure God doesn't "need us to defend Him", but we are His ambassadors here on earth. Paul even told Timothy that false teachers "Must be silenced". It is the christian's responsability as much as he is able to proclaim the truth and exploit falsehood.
"Owe nothing to anyone—except for your obligation to love one another. If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill the requirements of Gods law."
St. Francis of Assi, "Preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words"
As God's ambassadors on earth we can preach the Gospel by loving, we can silence false teachings with love. Christ used harsh words (at times) b/c he had authority to do so. We do not have such authority. But we can love effectively.
Also, biblical love is expressed by Truth, even if someone gets angry or offended. God does not compromise His word for the sake of man.(Psalm 138:2)
Lastly, you cannot "love someone" into the kingdom of God. It is by the preaching of the Gospel alone, that man is converted. That is the "foolish" method that God has chosen so that He gets the glory and man gets none. If anyone preaches "another gospel" as Paul said, "let him be accursed."(Gal.1)
Loving others doesn't mean you have to lie, it doesn't mean people won't get angry. Loving people does not mean you compromise your beliefs. It means you accept people for who they are, not what they do. We ALL fall short of the glory of God. Nothing we "do" earns us salvation. That was given freely.
Our intentions are to care for people. You want to use words, I want to use love. We simply differ on our approach of how we are to care for others.
I think we've detracted from the original point of focus. My point I was trying to make is about defending the faith from attacks from within the church and confronting false doctrine.
I certainly understand what you mean. In a way, if I am to be honest, I too must place some importance on defending the faith with words b/c I engage in debate.
I wonder, does God place more emphasis on defending the faith or servicing others? My contention is that the best way to defend the faith is by loving/servicing others.
We can agree God loves us. I think we should all work together to spread that message. Instead of fighting each other, lets unify on the common ground of God's love.
I think the best way to defend the faith is to look at scripture and see what it looks like. I believe that God places the most emphasis on that which brings Him glory and that which shows who He is. Never in scripture do we see God compromising His word and His Truth for the sake of a person. God just will not do that. I understand your view on "common ground", but where is that line drawn? How far down do we go to determine what that is?
"Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is to bring Christ down)or 'Who will descend into the deep?' (that is to bring Christ up from the dead)."
Romans 10:6-7
Neither you, or I should be telling anyone what happens after this life. It is not for us to worry about. So, let's start servicing and loving one another.
The passage you keep quoting is not talking about "what happens after this life". The context is about righteousness that comes by faith and the righteousness that comes from keeping the law.
Vs.3~ "For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
Vs.6~"But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),..."
I know what verse 3,6, etc say. I understand that the passage is concerned with the ideals of righteousness. That in no way changes that fact that we still are Not to be concerned with who is going where.
Are you still insisting that we are to be judges and jury over people's eternal resting place?
There is far more scripture about loving one another than there is about judging or defending the faith.
What I'm saying is that this passage has nothing to do with judging someone's eternity. When did I say "who" was going to heaven or hell? Based on scripture's revelation I certainly can tell someone that if they don't repent and put their faith in Christ that they will be judged by God and spend eternity in hell.
I do agree we will all be judged. Judged but still loved.
I respect you & your thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to engage in debate. You have helped me examine my own thoughts & ideals.
Admittedly I don't have it all figured out, so I plan to love & service as many people as I can. For me to love others is not continent upon me knowing the absolutely truths of how far God's love, mercy, & forgiveness stretches.
Thanks for your courtesy and being polite. That's hard to come by. If you don't want to continue talking about this, that's fine. I would just like to ask you a question. If you knew that lost sinners went to Hell for eternity, would you still love Jesus and follow Him?
The reason I asked you that question is because many people tend to create God in their own image. They create a god that acts like them and thinks like them. The problem with the universalist view is that it is the "way that seems right to man". There are many hard truths of the bible that people just don't like. Therefore they "explain away" the things that don't agree with the flesh.
I agree Jesus came to save the lost. That would be all of us.
I also agree that Jesus wants us to repent, to re-evaluate the way we are living & to start living with Christ. (i.e. following Jesus' teachings)
I also agree Christ did what we are incapable of.
I think we both agree these goals were accomplished. We only disagree on how far God's mercy, grace, and love stretches. I believe it covers everyone and you do not. I believe we stand on more common ground than we realize.
I am ALWAYS skeptical of people who think they can speak for God. How does Brian McLaren know what Jesus would say today. Since we know that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, why would his message and language change? It doesn't need to be altered in any form or fashion. The Gospel message, which is what Jesus came for, is the same today as it was 2000 years ago. Why does BM feel the need to clarify?!
If we keep the same old language and customs, some consequence follow.
For instance:
Should we still be stoning people who don't observe the Sabbath (EXO 31:14)?
Or are we to believe that earth is only a couple thousand years old based on the genealogies in the Bible?
I do understand what you are trying to say however. We can not change God's message. I agree. But I do think it is okay to try and come to terms with God's message in the context of the present day.
The stoning thing doesn't really make a good example. We opperate under the New covenant. Why would we not believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old? What does it mean to "come to terms with God's message in the context of present day"?
Yea I suppose these cases should not be used in this context. It is more appropriate for the literalists.
To come to terms with God's message in the context of our lives today means that we understand the historical context and the culture of the individuals who wrote scripture. And then how it relates to a people who are not submerged in that culture or history.
We do not have the same language, historical perspectives, or cultural realities. This doesn't negate fundamental truths however.
Maclaren preaches an entirely different "gospel" all under the guise of being "relevant" to today's culture. It really is true that people can be decieved by smooth speech.(Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, Maclaren, etc.)
okay... I kinda see what you're saying. Some of the language is hmmm problematic and lends itself to misinterpretation by biblically illiterate people and it doesn't fit within the greater picture presented by Scripture. If it's purely an analogy then it will naturally have it's flaws. for example, look at Psalms where God's king will make his enemies a footstool, the day of the Lord, all these passages in the Bible which go against the notion that it's some kind of ecosystem.
Brian asks Jesus probably wouldn't use the word kingdom to describe the kingdom of God. So does that mean we need to rethink what the old testament said about kings? What about Jesus' kingship? The Bible says the universe was made by him and for him, the image of the invisible God, and the exact representation of his person. Jesus is the central subject of Christianity, not some ecosystem. What I am concerned about is lessening of the importance or centrality of Christ in Christianity today.
and in Christian doctrine. Another good example is Rick Warren who says "God blesses methods." The implication is that if you find the right method God will bless your church. God uses different methods throughout history to reach people. If I use method A I will get result B. But that places the importance on me to find the current method God is blessing.
That's the principle of the Church Growth Movement.
In contrast, the disciples simply devoted themselves to the Word and prayer and serving one another in love and THE LORD added to their number daily. they didn't need any methods. We don't need any methods. We just need to be alert to people's needs physically and spiritually, treating all people as if they need to hear the Gospel and be loved because they are image bearers of God. I believe that is what we need to engage culture.
is Brian asking us to realign our thinking with the good news of God's grace towards sinful people, or with a McLarenism i.e. an ecosystem analogy that we need to harmonize with?
PS: I hate using these message boards. Maybe it's better if I shut up. I've said some pretty harsh things here, of which I need to repent. Brian comes across warmly and speaks well. We all need to learn to preach the Gospel, completely and lovingly because well, Colossians 1. There's some pretty bold statements there
Satan is also the father of lies and has been a liar from the beginning. This word from Brian is not the Gospel. It sounds just like one of the other religious options available to religious consumers. Nothing distinctly Christian about it. Repentance has been redefined to be unrelated to sin. He is redefining Christianity much like the Purpose Driven movement has and it's very different to Biblical doctrine revealed throughout the Bible. Read your Bible and don't listen to this guy.
Brian talks about sin the kind of sin you're in that's why you cannot recognise his orthodoxy does he deny the divinity of Jesus? does he deny the incarnation? does he deny the Cross? does he deny the atonement? does he deny the resurrection? does he deny the ascension? does he deny Jesus coming again? NO!! to all of those it is you who are being unbiblical I bet you are quite a young [in spiritual years] Christian so let's discuss again in 10 years when you grow a bit.
again no discussion of SIN. NONE. Get in tune with nature and God. What a load of hooey. This is not the Gospel. Do not listen to this man. Read your Bible.
He is talking about Gaia and the "interconnectedness" of things. He calls us by the Gospel and repentance and belief in Jesus. You can't have a gospel without sin, repentance and forgiveness.
You are wrong Brian. Repentance is agreeing that you are sinful and changing your way.God's Holy Spirit CHANGES US. Read Romans.
euterpesmuse > i'm not making 'accusations' i'm stating facts & exposing a False Teacher.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
sadly, a lot of the younger generation christians believe these false doctrines of devils because they have not the discernment of the Holy Spirit.
Duhh...r u guys Christians? Whats wrong with living in harmony with one another n taking care of Nature? I thought God created this world. So we should pollute and kill? If u have a relationship with God, shouldn't your mind change? I thought love is patient and kind, never jealous or envious.
I'm saddened by the fact how few make any kind of real attempt trying to understand what Brian is saying. Instead, people choose to hear what they want to hear even if it has nothing to do with the his argument whatsoever. I'd like to ask the critics: why is it inconceivable for you that sin and turning away from it has a lot do with how we look at God, at ourselves and at other people? What term would you choose to communicate today that the "kingdom" of God is at hand (the original context)?
How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame ? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ? Selah
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.For this reason I have given them over to strong delusion.
The word "repent" in the Bible does mean to think differently or reconsider (strongs#3340). But in the context of most New Testament passages it refers to SIN, not how we look at the world and various social issues.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Why don't we just call ourselves the socialist party of Jesus Christ? That's what Brian is sayin..."Repent... it will change you view of yourself, God, and other people" in worse circumstances. Repent means to HATE the sin you once loved and to LOVE the God you once hated. By hating other people we are hating God and his Kingdom, I'll give you that. But if we do not cast of sin, and begin to hate it, we are not of the Kingdom of God!
He didn't tell anyone what this "change of mind" should look like. Just "change your thinking", so it doesn't matter what I change it to as long as I just change it...clear as mud!
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a little leaven leavens the whole bunch, mixing a little truth with an abundance of lies, they are not for Jesus or you, they have an agenda, the new world order, follow Jesus, read the Bible, test the spirits of these teachings, and you will see their errors..1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
sharlyates40 1 month ago
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Why do so many Christians get angry when they have a different belief than another Christian? They use all CAPS and sometimes call names. They tell the person they are headed for Hell and God will judge them. Why not love and state your case but do it in a graceful way? It's no wonder so many people don't want anything to do with Christianity. Jesus is amazing but His followers, not so much.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
BRIAN IS AWESOME!!!!!
PenSword35 6 months ago
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@PenSword35 a little leaven leavens the whole bunch, mixing a little truth with an abundance of lies, they are not for Jesus or you, they have an agenda, the new world order, follow Jesus, read the Bible, test the spirits of these teachings, and you will see their errors..1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
sharlyates40 1 month ago
Don't drink the Kool-Aid
djdanaman 1 year ago
repentance is turning away from sin, not rethinking about your sin
zoltron30 1 year ago
Jesus is the only answer!!!
zoltron30 1 year ago
I see another option: Ignore all of it.
ChesapeakeBeach 1 year ago
@ChesapeakeBeach Agreed. Wonder what kind of car this guy drives?
djdanaman 1 year ago
very intellectual and very wrong. The gospel has always been very open and very easy to understand. There is no hidden message of Jesus that has been kept a secret. Here is prime example of the arrogance of intellect verses the simplicity of spiritual truths. Spiritual thuths always upset the intellectual who worships his great thinking mind. The great thinking mind is so valuable but there are simple spiritual truths that will not register on the great thinking minds. Heretic heretic heretic
FLINTER47 1 year ago
If we put aside our desire to play "hang the heretic," then we'll see that he's actually CORRECT. The scriptures teach that Christ's gospel or "good news" was about the Kgdm of God or literally, the "reign of God" on Earth. (See Mat 4:23, 9:35, Mk 1:14-15, Lk 4:43, 7:22, 8:1...)
The Kgdm of God and Kgdm of Heaven were similes... Kind of like when we say, "we have a message from the president," and "we have a message from the White House."
Nothing heretical here. Just out of the box thinking.
Pray4Revival 1 year ago 4
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@Pray4Revival a little leaven leavens the whole bunch, mixing a little truth with an abundance of lies, they are not for Jesus or you, they have an agenda, the new world order, follow Jesus, read the Bible, test the spirits of these teachings, and you will see their errors..1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
sharlyates40 1 month ago
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@Pray4Revival Satans the only one trying to usher in a "kingdom", read Revelation, Jesus destroys them in an instant, a little leaven leavens the whole bunch, mixing a little truth with an abundance of lies, they are not for Jesus or you, they have an agenda, test the spirits of these teachings, and you will see their errors..1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
sharlyates40 1 month ago
I am angry anyone would portray themselves as a Christian and speak this way. The gospel is so clear. We don't need fancy words-lots of confusing fancy words-to share the love of Christ. What was his point in sharing this anyway. I couldn't understand what he was really getting at-and I am glad for that!
ilovealan1000 2 years ago
I just want you to cite me one person that actually witnessed the Birth and indeed resurection of the so called christ. not to mention all of the miracles attributed to him/it...And why if he was the son of God who createdthe Universe, could only muster up feeding a group of people and rising people from the dead...Not very cool for the son of God. that's like the prodigy of bill Gates working in a
deldred69 2 years ago
@ilovealan1000 Is anger a religious expression?
bchungdmd 1 year ago
Kingdom of God = a spiritual state of being, not a physical place as most people think of it - Rom 14:17
Love, joy, peace, kindness, mercy, patience, freedom from guilt / worry, etc... all reign in the "Kingdom of God"
Religion fills people with rules, rituals, traditions, judgment, anger, self-righteousness, etc... which is the exact opposite of the Kingdom of God.
Don't take my word for it, Ask God about it. :)
ChristianNewsWatch 2 years ago
@ChristianNewsWatch/ It is both..
RealityDefenseLeague 1 year ago
@ChristianNewsWatch Ok, will ask God about it.
bchungdmd 1 year ago
If Brian is this dissatisfied with Christianity then he is a doubter and needs some strong Bibical teaching from someone like Chuck Missler or Carter Conlan- he is confusing the gospel for those truly seeking and will therefore be accountable to the Lord for that
pianohbc 2 years ago
I agree with Brian.
You christian are the ones fucking up the Value of jesus.
Everyone on youtube against Brian because he speaks truth.
Get out of Church, Christianity, religion and enter into the Kingdom.
Yarmisius 2 years ago 2
Perhaps you should look at your language- does that honour the Lord?
pianohbc 2 years ago 2
Following jesus is not just about stop swearing, not drinking alcohol and attending church.
Religion of christianity preach that but Jesus' kingdom is much bigger.
i recomend you to re-visit jesus and study about him.
Yarmisius 2 years ago 2
Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits - if you think swearing pleases him then you should study Scripture which tells you not to speak with foul language
pianohbc 2 years ago
Perhpas you should look at your language- does that honour God?
pianohbc 2 years ago
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WARNING!! Brian McLaren is not a REAL Christian! He is making up lies about the Bible and is now attacking Christians for believing in Jesus and his return and denies that The state of Israel and the jewish people are God's chosen as stated in the Bible. Brian Mclaren is also Obama's new assistant on a new bill passed called the hate crime bill and stated he wants to destroy the Christian majority and its belief as Jesus will return. He is a Heretic! Brian Mclaren is a wolf in sheeps clothing
opios80 2 years ago
notice he doesnt talk about the most importent thing jesus addressed SIN, and REPENTING, and people needing a savior, wy did god have to die a horrible death what was he saving us from, how bad must sin and the judgment be when god would die such a way as to save us sinners, this guy is diverting people away from the most importent things of the gosple
greatestgiftis 3 years ago
it case you didnt know, the big importent message god was sharing with people will he was here on earth befor he died a horrible death was are you ready ! A ECOSYSTEM, thats right folks, NOT sin or truely repenting of how we have affended a holy GOD, and that we need a savior but a ECOSYSTEM, thats what god was talking about in those parables, WOW this guy is something els
greatestgiftis 3 years ago
god talks quite fine to this day and age, thats wy its called the livivng word , god is always talking to his children, i think the god who created the heavens and earth was smart enough to know what he was doing when he wrote the bible, and how it would apply to this age and the age to come, this guy is what a dummy, he needs to go study the word of god, rather than twist it out of context, there will be many decievers in the last days , watch out, see if it checks out with the bible
greatestgiftis 3 years ago
what this guy says is so out of context it is ridiculous.
parakeethands 3 years ago
but, this guy is catholic.
and I bet he is married, so then he thinks people that are not married, by authority of "church", a priest, can counsel married people, when they dont know about marriage!
And this guy thinks making statues of Mary and placing them all over a church building is okay, even though Jesus clearly called Mary woman many times, in the BIBLE
so everything this guy says is blah blah blah
eastsackevster 3 years ago
I have a question for McHeretic: Who decided we need to "rethink evrything"?
gtrjunky 3 years ago
Jesus did.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
When was this?
gtrjunky 3 years ago
The original greek word for repent was "metanoevw" It means
1)to change one's mind
2)to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins.
It is found in Matthew 5 times, Mark 2 times, Luke 9 time, Acts 5 times, just to name a few.
When we "change our mind, or heartily amend for past sin" we have to "rethinking" what we are doing so we can change our ways. (to repent).
McClaren is saying what Jesus said. Rethink the way you are living. This is not new.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
As we see repentance acted out in the scriptures we see that it is a turning from sin, because we've offended a Holy God. Maclaren has a much broader use of repentance by changing it to "rethinking". He wants to get people to "rethink" the Gospel and try and broaden the Narrow way. Maclaren is not a preacher of righteousness nor does he address sin the way the bible does.
gtrjunky 3 years ago
Repentance is a different word than repent. The greek for repentance is "metavnoia."
In any case, isn't it true that you simply disagree with how Mr. McClaren interrupts scripture. You were taught to interpret one way and he suggests another.
Who of us followers can claim to understand God's ultimate will. We cannot begin to fathom God's true self. Not that we should try to understand.
I just don't think it's fair to pretend anyone has the absolute truth. You, me, McClaren.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
When I say "repentance" or "repent", I am using them synonomously. They aren't entirely different conepts. To come to Christ you must be willing to "repent" but your life should be marked by "repentance". It's a one time thing and an ongoing thing.
gtrjunky 3 years ago
Yes I do assert that the way Maclaren interprets scripture is wrong. The words on the page have meaning. To clarify that we see these meanings acted out by the people in the bible. People like Maclaren shove their own ideas into the scripture and make it appear tha that's the way it's "always been". The scriptures are not as complicated as these type of guys make it. Many people have become born again believers simply by reading the bible. The plain teachings are enough to convert the soul.
gtrjunky 3 years ago
I'm sorry, are you implying that you have accept to the mind of God. You fully understand all elements of scripture. You are intelligent, but come on.
Jesus did not come to convert souls. He came to save us. He came to show us love. He came to show us a better way.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
I don't understand the first part of your question.
Jesus came to seek and save the lost and to call sinners to repentance. He came to do that which we are incapable of doing; that is to satisfy the righteous requirements of God.
gtrjunky 3 years ago
Type-o. "Are you implying that you have access to the mind of God?"
I ask b/c you commented, "The scriptures are not as complicated as these type of guys make it."
I know that you are intelligent, but before you can make claims that others are heretics, shouldn't you be a scholar in ancient greek & hebrew, shouldn't you have a full understanding of the historical, political, and cultural atmosphere in which the scriptures were written?
Even w/ all that, we don't fully understand God's grace
danmeyer95 3 years ago
That seems to be a common thought with people these days that one must know "all" things in order to affirm "some" things. Jesus didn't say "after you receive your PHD, watch out for wolves in sheeps clothing". Jude talks about "certain persons creeping in UNNOTICED".
Christians are to CONTEND EARNESTLY for THE faith. So while I don't have "all" knowledge that does not disqualify me from standing firm on what I do know.
gtrjunky 3 years ago
I understand that. I too don't know it "all." I was suggesting it might be unfair to call someone a heretic when we admittedly don't know all the facts.
In any case, God doesn't need us to defend him. God does, however want us to love each other. I think our time is better spent servicing & loving than "earnestly contending for the faith."
Love changes people, not words.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
I would have to respectfully disagree with you on almost every point you made. First, the point about "contending for the faith" is from Jude. That is a mandate for all christians, not just the people he wrote to. Sure God doesn't "need us to defend Him", but we are His ambassadors here on earth. Paul even told Timothy that false teachers "Must be silenced". It is the christian's responsability as much as he is able to proclaim the truth and exploit falsehood.
gtrjunky 3 years ago
I could quote Romans 13:8:
"Owe nothing to anyone—except for your obligation to love one another. If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill the requirements of Gods law."
St. Francis of Assi, "Preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words"
As God's ambassadors on earth we can preach the Gospel by loving, we can silence false teachings with love. Christ used harsh words (at times) b/c he had authority to do so. We do not have such authority. But we can love effectively.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
Also, biblical love is expressed by Truth, even if someone gets angry or offended. God does not compromise His word for the sake of man.(Psalm 138:2)
Lastly, you cannot "love someone" into the kingdom of God. It is by the preaching of the Gospel alone, that man is converted. That is the "foolish" method that God has chosen so that He gets the glory and man gets none. If anyone preaches "another gospel" as Paul said, "let him be accursed."(Gal.1)
gtrjunky 3 years ago
Loving others doesn't mean you have to lie, it doesn't mean people won't get angry. Loving people does not mean you compromise your beliefs. It means you accept people for who they are, not what they do. We ALL fall short of the glory of God. Nothing we "do" earns us salvation. That was given freely.
Our intentions are to care for people. You want to use words, I want to use love. We simply differ on our approach of how we are to care for others.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
I think we've detracted from the original point of focus. My point I was trying to make is about defending the faith from attacks from within the church and confronting false doctrine.
gtrjunky 3 years ago
I certainly understand what you mean. In a way, if I am to be honest, I too must place some importance on defending the faith with words b/c I engage in debate.
I wonder, does God place more emphasis on defending the faith or servicing others? My contention is that the best way to defend the faith is by loving/servicing others.
We can agree God loves us. I think we should all work together to spread that message. Instead of fighting each other, lets unify on the common ground of God's love.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
I think the best way to defend the faith is to look at scripture and see what it looks like. I believe that God places the most emphasis on that which brings Him glory and that which shows who He is. Never in scripture do we see God compromising His word and His Truth for the sake of a person. God just will not do that. I understand your view on "common ground", but where is that line drawn? How far down do we go to determine what that is?
gtrjunky 3 years ago
This is why I cannot find "common ground" with people that preach a gospel that teaches that "every person will be saved".
gtrjunky 3 years ago
How about this then:
"Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is to bring Christ down)or 'Who will descend into the deep?' (that is to bring Christ up from the dead)."
Romans 10:6-7
Neither you, or I should be telling anyone what happens after this life. It is not for us to worry about. So, let's start servicing and loving one another.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
The passage you keep quoting is not talking about "what happens after this life". The context is about righteousness that comes by faith and the righteousness that comes from keeping the law.
gtrjunky 3 years ago
Vs.3~ "For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
Vs.6~"But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),..."
gtrjunky 3 years ago
I know what verse 3,6, etc say. I understand that the passage is concerned with the ideals of righteousness. That in no way changes that fact that we still are Not to be concerned with who is going where.
Are you still insisting that we are to be judges and jury over people's eternal resting place?
There is far more scripture about loving one another than there is about judging or defending the faith.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
What I'm saying is that this passage has nothing to do with judging someone's eternity. When did I say "who" was going to heaven or hell? Based on scripture's revelation I certainly can tell someone that if they don't repent and put their faith in Christ that they will be judged by God and spend eternity in hell.
gtrjunky 3 years ago
I do agree we will all be judged. Judged but still loved.
I respect you & your thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to engage in debate. You have helped me examine my own thoughts & ideals.
Admittedly I don't have it all figured out, so I plan to love & service as many people as I can. For me to love others is not continent upon me knowing the absolutely truths of how far God's love, mercy, & forgiveness stretches.
I wish you lots of peace.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
Thanks for your courtesy and being polite. That's hard to come by. If you don't want to continue talking about this, that's fine. I would just like to ask you a question. If you knew that lost sinners went to Hell for eternity, would you still love Jesus and follow Him?
gtrjunky 3 years ago
Thank you for your honesty and politeness. You clearly are a intelligent and have a strong Love for God. I appreciate and respect that.
Thats a good question. I would still follow and Love Christ. What about for you? If God did save everyone?
danmeyer95 3 years ago
Yes I would.
gtrjunky 3 years ago
The reason I asked you that question is because many people tend to create God in their own image. They create a god that acts like them and thinks like them. The problem with the universalist view is that it is the "way that seems right to man". There are many hard truths of the bible that people just don't like. Therefore they "explain away" the things that don't agree with the flesh.
gtrjunky 3 years ago
I agree Jesus came to save the lost. That would be all of us.
I also agree that Jesus wants us to repent, to re-evaluate the way we are living & to start living with Christ. (i.e. following Jesus' teachings)
I also agree Christ did what we are incapable of.
I think we both agree these goals were accomplished. We only disagree on how far God's mercy, grace, and love stretches. I believe it covers everyone and you do not. I believe we stand on more common ground than we realize.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
I am ALWAYS skeptical of people who think they can speak for God. How does Brian McLaren know what Jesus would say today. Since we know that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, why would his message and language change? It doesn't need to be altered in any form or fashion. The Gospel message, which is what Jesus came for, is the same today as it was 2000 years ago. Why does BM feel the need to clarify?!
ah64dwyfe 3 years ago
wake up and open your mind!!
brianf777 3 years ago
"open your mind"?? I wonder what verse that is?
gtrjunky 3 years ago
If we keep the same old language and customs, some consequence follow.
For instance:
Should we still be stoning people who don't observe the Sabbath (EXO 31:14)?
Or are we to believe that earth is only a couple thousand years old based on the genealogies in the Bible?
I do understand what you are trying to say however. We can not change God's message. I agree. But I do think it is okay to try and come to terms with God's message in the context of the present day.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
The stoning thing doesn't really make a good example. We opperate under the New covenant. Why would we not believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old? What does it mean to "come to terms with God's message in the context of present day"?
gtrjunky 3 years ago
Yea I suppose these cases should not be used in this context. It is more appropriate for the literalists.
To come to terms with God's message in the context of our lives today means that we understand the historical context and the culture of the individuals who wrote scripture. And then how it relates to a people who are not submerged in that culture or history.
We do not have the same language, historical perspectives, or cultural realities. This doesn't negate fundamental truths however.
danmeyer95 3 years ago
Maclaren preaches an entirely different "gospel" all under the guise of being "relevant" to today's culture. It really is true that people can be decieved by smooth speech.(Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, Maclaren, etc.)
gtrjunky 3 years ago
P.S. so many mix up confession, with what repentance.
Keep learning - pay attention to detail
confess your sin/repent - two stages - but not the same.
He is dealing with 'repent'
stop falsely accusing.
maz59 3 years ago
okay... I kinda see what you're saying. Some of the language is hmmm problematic and lends itself to misinterpretation by biblically illiterate people and it doesn't fit within the greater picture presented by Scripture. If it's purely an analogy then it will naturally have it's flaws. for example, look at Psalms where God's king will make his enemies a footstool, the day of the Lord, all these passages in the Bible which go against the notion that it's some kind of ecosystem.
numbersbad 3 years ago
Brian asks Jesus probably wouldn't use the word kingdom to describe the kingdom of God. So does that mean we need to rethink what the old testament said about kings? What about Jesus' kingship? The Bible says the universe was made by him and for him, the image of the invisible God, and the exact representation of his person. Jesus is the central subject of Christianity, not some ecosystem. What I am concerned about is lessening of the importance or centrality of Christ in Christianity today.
numbersbad 3 years ago
and in Christian doctrine. Another good example is Rick Warren who says "God blesses methods." The implication is that if you find the right method God will bless your church. God uses different methods throughout history to reach people. If I use method A I will get result B. But that places the importance on me to find the current method God is blessing.
That's the principle of the Church Growth Movement.
numbersbad 3 years ago
In contrast, the disciples simply devoted themselves to the Word and prayer and serving one another in love and THE LORD added to their number daily. they didn't need any methods. We don't need any methods. We just need to be alert to people's needs physically and spiritually, treating all people as if they need to hear the Gospel and be loved because they are image bearers of God. I believe that is what we need to engage culture.
numbersbad 3 years ago
is Brian asking us to realign our thinking with the good news of God's grace towards sinful people, or with a McLarenism i.e. an ecosystem analogy that we need to harmonize with?
PS: I hate using these message boards. Maybe it's better if I shut up. I've said some pretty harsh things here, of which I need to repent. Brian comes across warmly and speaks well. We all need to learn to preach the Gospel, completely and lovingly because well, Colossians 1. There's some pretty bold statements there
numbersbad 3 years ago
Satan is also the father of lies and has been a liar from the beginning. This word from Brian is not the Gospel. It sounds just like one of the other religious options available to religious consumers. Nothing distinctly Christian about it. Repentance has been redefined to be unrelated to sin. He is redefining Christianity much like the Purpose Driven movement has and it's very different to Biblical doctrine revealed throughout the Bible. Read your Bible and don't listen to this guy.
numbersbad 3 years ago
maz59 3 years ago
again no discussion of SIN. NONE. Get in tune with nature and God. What a load of hooey. This is not the Gospel. Do not listen to this man. Read your Bible.
He is talking about Gaia and the "interconnectedness" of things. He calls us by the Gospel and repentance and belief in Jesus. You can't have a gospel without sin, repentance and forgiveness.
You are wrong Brian. Repentance is agreeing that you are sinful and changing your way.God's Holy Spirit CHANGES US. Read Romans.
Read Galatians.
numbersbad 3 years ago
Brian McLaren is a Liar & a False Teacher.
He's a Wolf....a Liar.
He's a False Teacher in the Great Apostasy, the Great Falling Away.
This man works for Satan himself !
XJayX7 3 years ago
euterpesmuse > i'm not making 'accusations' i'm stating facts & exposing a False Teacher.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
sadly, a lot of the younger generation christians believe these false doctrines of devils because they have not the discernment of the Holy Spirit.
XJayX7 3 years ago
Christians always think they are stating facts LOL... no wonder they arent taking seriously.. like come on... they have made the bible GOD
myfacevids 3 years ago
alot of his thoughts are thoughts ive had.
i like the way he explains things
even though they are able to be taken in a wrong way
some people don't see what he is trying to state,
they dont get it. Jesus had this same problem too when he was re-teaching the people of Israel.
but i get it and it makes sense
he is targeting a type of believers..Those who think. haha..
briano1983 3 years ago 2
Duhh...r u guys Christians? Whats wrong with living in harmony with one another n taking care of Nature? I thought God created this world. So we should pollute and kill? If u have a relationship with God, shouldn't your mind change? I thought love is patient and kind, never jealous or envious.
danieldyz 3 years ago
Brian McLaren is a Liar & a False Teacher.
He's a Wolf....a Liar.
He's a False Teacher in the Great Apostasy, the Great Falling Away.
This man works for Satan himself !
XJayX7 3 years ago
I'm saddened by the fact how few make any kind of real attempt trying to understand what Brian is saying. Instead, people choose to hear what they want to hear even if it has nothing to do with the his argument whatsoever. I'd like to ask the critics: why is it inconceivable for you that sin and turning away from it has a lot do with how we look at God, at ourselves and at other people? What term would you choose to communicate today that the "kingdom" of God is at hand (the original context)?
pjedmonton 3 years ago 2
Psalm 4:2
How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame ? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ? Selah
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.For this reason I have given them over to strong delusion.
denisedavis1 3 years ago
The word "repent" in the Bible does mean to think differently or reconsider (strongs#3340). But in the context of most New Testament passages it refers to SIN, not how we look at the world and various social issues.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
As far as "us and them" Jabo777 is right on
ericdraws 3 years ago
Why don't we just call ourselves the socialist party of Jesus Christ? That's what Brian is sayin..."Repent... it will change you view of yourself, God, and other people" in worse circumstances. Repent means to HATE the sin you once loved and to LOVE the God you once hated. By hating other people we are hating God and his Kingdom, I'll give you that. But if we do not cast of sin, and begin to hate it, we are not of the Kingdom of God!
Propitiation325 3 years ago
Let's see...Kingdom of God = sacred ecosystem.
Maybe our new translations should have Jesus saying..."Repent, for the sacred ecosystem is at hand."
Please don't buy what he is selling.
darrenjodi 4 years ago
The Answer is to give, and you can only give when you love,
and you can only love when you come into union with God,
and the only way to do that is to do onto others as you
would have them do unto to you, Deuteronomy 6:1-9
brotherfuture 4 years ago
The Answer is to give, and you can only give when you love,
and you can only love when you come into union with God,
and the only way to do that is to do onto others as you
would have them do unto to you, Deuteronomy 6:1-9
brotherfuture 4 years ago
He didn't tell anyone what this "change of mind" should look like. Just "change your thinking", so it doesn't matter what I change it to as long as I just change it...clear as mud!
gtrjunky 4 years ago
Repentence explained without any mention of sin. Interesting...
AllHailXcelceor 4 years ago
Crosby, are you a follower of Jesus?
greatwhitehype27 4 years ago
wow never heard more crap in my life
crosby2006 4 years ago
i guess you dont watch tv
teedubyo 4 years ago
amen
glenpug 4 years ago
Amen!
glenpug 4 years ago