Atheist Who Want to Find God

[ozbrad]

Religion is geographical if you were born in Iran you'd be a muslim or India you'd be a Hindu.

[vonbiron]

yeah, he reveals himself, appearing as idol in a body, a nice one too

[NemoUtopian]

"why would god reveal himself to people that are not seeking him out?"

because he really really cares?you know because he loves everyone with an awe inspiring love no matter how unworthy,ring any bells?

[Chuck1863]

If someone seeks God enough, there's a chance that he'll think he's found God even if God doesn't exist. People don't like to think that they've wasted their lives and will often cling to failed theories and will imagine justification even if there is none.

[sailing19100]

@Chuck1863 Good logic Chuck, but it leads to a false conclusion; if God exists, then peoples theories about chance and observation bias don't really matter.

[wahwah21008]

Thank you.......You care so much & keeping going if only they all knew !

[gusb232]

'we are not forced to have a certian dispostion towards YHWH?

Read Romans 8+9 Did pharoh have a choice, Did Esua?

[sailing19100]

@gusb232 God is sovereign, which means he can raise up individuals who are used by him for his purpose. Such as pharoah, as you mention, or, in the gospels, the "man blind from birth". Look also at how Jesus intercepted Paul. God is sovereign over both the rules and the exceptions to the rules.

[gusb232]

@sailing19100 'God is sovereign' Ok Maybe.

But what presuppostion allows you to judge YHWH is god?

its seems so arbitrary . What not say Allah is god or the FSM is god?

[sailing19100]

@gusb232 The entire jewish bible prophesies the arrival of Jesus as God's only begotten son, and the redeemer, even stating when he would arrive, and that he would in fact be God in the flesh. This fact is refuted buy Islam and all other religions.

[sailing19100]

@gusb232 Gusb232, if you want to understand prophecy, go study it. Start with the seventhy day adventists presentation of the prophecies of Daniel as they pertain to the timing of the arrival of Jesus. I am not a prophecy teacher, not my calling.

[gusb232]

@sailing19100 'if you want to understand prophecy, go study it. '

What makes you think I have not studied it?

I have read most of the bible and all the NT much of it more then once when i was a Christian.

' I am not a prophecy teacher, not my calling If you dont understand it why are you saying its we must accept it as irrefutable. I just asked for ONE example of a valid prophesy.

[sailing19100]

@gusb232 Gusb, I already told you, study the prophecy of Daniel, Daniel 7 and 9, along with the timing of the commnand to rebuild jerusalem as expressed in the book of Nehemiah. I did not say you have to have to accept it as irrefutable. I said that it is irrefutable, using any manner of human logic that you choose. It is not my job to prove the existence of God to you! It is my job to show you faults in your own logic that you use to refute God's existence. If you want more, go study.

[gusb232]

@sailing19100 ' entire jewish bible prophesies '

I asked for ONE or your best example of such a prophesy.

There have been many people that have claimed to be the son of god.

from Hercules, to david koresh. do they also fufill prophesy? You just have the word of the bible as evidence that Jesus was gods son, you think its difficult to make up a story like this, Peopel died for daid koresh as well.

[gusb232]

Do you still want to find god? How do you know you have found him?

Many people have found god but that god is not YHWH, so only people that have found YHWH have found god?

[desb0nes]

If there is a God, and he is deserving of worship, he would not punish those who do not worship him.

[miking193]

@desb0nes says who you? If you don't want to seek out God now, then when you face him at judgment he'll won't grant entrance into the kingdom of heaven, because you never sought it out, or didn't think it was big enough to put on your to do list, I don't want your money or respect, I just want to tell you how to get right with God, go alone away from distractions close your eyes, & start by repenting for your selfishness & see what happens

[sailing19100]

@desb0nes In your comment, you attribute human reasoning to God. By human logic alone, that attribution is prohibited. If there is a god, and if he created us, then his ways are higher than our ways, and he is not bound by the dictates of human reason.

[desb0nes]

@sailing19100 If God's morality defies human comprehension, how are we to know if he is a benevolent god or a malevolent one?

[sailing19100]

@desb0nes First, your conscience already tells you there is a God, and tells you the difference between right and wrong. Second, God's morality does not defy human comprehension as you state; God's sovereignty defies human comprehension. Third, it is not our business to decide whether God is benevolent or malevolent in any given situation; you woke up this morning, you breathe; thank God.

[gusb232]

@sailing19100 First, your conscience already tells you there is a God, and tells you the difference between right and wrong. Second, God's morality does not defy human comprehension as you state;'

Granted, 'maybe'.

'not our business to decide whether God is benevolent '

Then your are not saying YHWH is benevolent or that YHWH is god?

[gusb232]

@sailing19100 'God's morality does not defy human comprehension as you state; God's sovereignty defies human comprehension'

So your saying your comprehension of gods morality may be in conflict with your god's sovereignty?

If you find genocide to always be immoral yet YHWH's commands genocide then genocide is actualy moral?

[sailing19100]

@gusb232 Again, gusb232, you are attributing your human logic to god. There is no morality except as created by god or as created by humans.  God, or YHWH as you say, commanded a moral code for human beings in order to separate his people from worshippers of false gods, and also presented a judicial code, often commanding death to those who disobeyed; and rightly so. There is no conflict. God is sovereign, he IS morality, whether we understand it or not.

[gusb232]

@sailing19100 'God, or YHWH as you say, commanded a moral code'

So are you saying you have judged YHWH =god or not?

Yet one can not judge that YHWH is not god, or is not moral.?

[gusb232]

@desb0nes 'If God's morality defies human comprehension, how are we to know if he is a benevolent god or a malevolent one'

:) exactly , its an argument from ignorance, we cant judge YHWH 's morality , therfore we can judge YHWH is moral.

[sailing19100]

@gusb232 Gusb, it is not an argument from ignorance, but from logic; if there is a god, and if he created us and not the other way around, then god is morality, and we are not. It exists outside of humanity, it is external. What is ignorant is to say that there is no god, but there is a moral code that we must all adhere to; that is ignorant and illogical.

[gusb232]

@sailing19100 ; 'if there is a god, and if he created us and not the other way around,then god is morality' Ok fine but you have not demostrated your premises to be true nor that this god must be YHWH.

I didnt say there is no god, Im saying Why do you judge YHWH is god?

So if no god existed there would not be morality? How would you verify this claim?

If there was no god we would all become a physco-paths?

[sailing19100]

@gusb232 Gusb; if we are created, then morality comes from outside of us, not from inside of us. If no god existed, there would be only human-based morality, which is, of course, the moral code of the atheists. If we are psychopaths, it has no bearing on whether or not there is a god; psychopathic behavior is just that, behavior. Even if there is a god, psychopaths still exist. Your "YHWH" wording is irrelevant; Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. Jesus is the singularity, the proof.

[gusb232]

@sailing19100 ' if we are created,' You nor any religion have demostrated a god created us.

so this argument goes no where.

'the moral code of the atheists' Atheism does not posit any moral code.

'Your "YHWH" wording is irrelevant'

HUH? Is it irrelevant to you? do you believe YHWH is God or not? Are you saying you dont know the name of your own god?

[desb0nes]

@sailing19100 If your God acts in ways that contradict human morality, he is malevolent toward us. I would agree that a malevolent god could exist, and that the God of the Bible would fit this description.

However, you suggest that a such a God should be worshipped. I don't know that I could do that in good faith even faced with the punishment of eternal suffering. I suppose it's good that I do not believe eternal suffering awaits.

[sailing19100]

@desb0nes Desbones: Your assertion that God is malevolent because he is God and us, we are created, is another manifestation of trying to use human logic to define God. By the very nature of creating human beings and endowing them with a concept of free will, God's morality will oppose human morality - by essence, nature and design. It is a question of the infinite creating and entering into the finite. You cannot define God or God's moral essence. You can only submit to it, if you will.

[aestimatio]

If god decides he doesn’t want someone to know him, he isn’t an omnibenevolent god. If god wants us to accept him as the god of the universe without evidences, that’s a recipe that could result in people worshiping false gods. I genuinely sought out god for years as a former christian. No answer or evidence. In fact, a lot of evidence contradicted god’s existence as he’s portrayed in the bible. Because of this, I had to conclude that I may be worshiping a false god if I continued to worship him.

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio did you repent from all known sin? Did you give up everything that came between you and God? did you read the words of Jesus and obey them? If you did, then you began to suffer severe persecution, especially from other "Christians" and even among your family, friends and coworkers.  When you began to suffer that persecution, what did you do?

[aestimatio]

@sailing19100 It sounds like you feel persecuted for your beliefs. I may be wrong, but if this is the case, you don't know the level of persecution that can occur until you become an atheist.

This still does not address my concern about your statement about an omnibenevolent god not wanting some people to know him. Why would a god want someone to be persecuted before that person can truly know him/her as god. That does not sound like an omnibenevolent god.

.

[miking193]

@aestimatio if I may cut in, if I were an atheist my life would be a lot easier, most of family & friends from growing up are either atheist or don't make God a priority, & would like to see me take this seriously & get more grounded on earthly things not constantly obsessed with eternity. I don't know what kind of persecution you get as an atheist your on the right medium where atheist are the hero's & make fun of believers, look at our comments 90% of then are on how dumb we are

[aestimatio]

@miking193 A University of Minnesota study has shown that atheists are the most distrusted group in America. Many theists think that atheists are at the worst devil worshippers and even more think that atheists have no morals and they feel free to do whatever is in their own self interest without regard for others. On top of that Atheists represent less than 20% of the population. We are vastly outnumbered, highly distrusted, and believed by many to have no morals.

[miking193]

@aestimatio most professors are atheist believers are usually ridiculed for their fantasy land beliefs by the person in authority who grades their work ensuring whether or not they get a job a way to provide for themselves, you can see the bias towards natural materlism ath this level, accept it or don't get a degree & be a social out cast who can't make enough money to support themselves

[aestimatio]

@miking193 From my experience, your statement about professors is not true. Professors teach what the evidence supports, but I must say again, in my experience, they don't fail someone because they believe in a god. Even if that is the cause, there are many religious based universities that can provide a degree. Beyond that, will not your god take care of you if you spread his word? If so, you have nothing to worry about.

[Hopeful71]

@miking193

"most professors are atheist believers are usually ridiculed for their fantasy land beliefs by the person in authority who grades their work ensuring whether or not they get a job "

WTF? Where do you get that 'fact'?

(as a side note, maybe your poor grades are a result of your borderline illiterate grammatical structure)

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio I do not "feel" persecuted. The persecution that comes to followers of Jesus is objective, and it is the same in spirit for all of them. You do not know this persecution, which means you never even attempted, ever, to obey the words of Jesus. If you had, you would not describe the persecution as a feeling. I did not make any statement about the omnibenevolence of god, and cannot comment there..

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio Again, please try to answer the question, because you said about yourself "I genuinely sought out god for years as a former Christian" . So, rather than reply to questions by asking questions, can you simply answer: Were you branded a heretic by your own church when you started to obey the words of Jesus and taught others to do so? Were you persecuted by your "Christian" friends who were not willing to obey, and by your family and coworkers?

[aestimatio]

@sailing19100 Sure, I will answer your question. No I was not. Before I came to the point I would have to get to in order to experience what you described, I came to the realization that the bible is not true and it is more likely than not that the god described in the bible does not exists. This was not a quick process. This attempt to reconcile what the bible said with what the evidences showed went on for years. Now, can you answer my question? Are you a bible literalist?

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio Well, nobody can come to the "realization" about the truth or non-truth of the bible. The singularity that allows understanding of the bible, as described by Jesus, is being born from above ("born again"), at which point it is god himself who teaches the believer. Until that point, the bible is meaningless, and perhaps designed to be meaningless, as if the entire thing were a parable. Along the same lines, the bible is not to be interpreted entirely literaly or figuratively.

[aestimatio]

@sailing19100 If the bible cannot be interpreted entirely literally or figuratively, who decides what can and what can't?

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio You tell me. Even atheistic scholars can see - wait - even children can tell the difference between a metaphor and a literal statement. Your question about the figurative or literal meaning of the bible is not forwarded out of a true intent to know, but instead out of an attempt to use human logic to be tricky. I suspect you will ask next "Can God create a rock so large that He cannot lift it?". Your mind (hence its questions) are carnal, i.e. anti-spiritual.

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio An atheist subscribes to the philosophy of moral relativism. Atheists do not persecute each other, it is against their moral code. A Christian may try to convert you, but that is not persecution. Persecution means when you lose your job, friends, family or life for telling the truth. That does not happen to atheists.

[aestimatio]

@sailing19100 Now you are making up your own definitions for words. In any case, if you do not think that atheists lose jobs, friends, and family for life when they admit they are atheists, you are mistaken. Those are the reasons many atheists do not publicly come out as an atheist.

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio I'm sorry, I don't believe you. That is not the same as saying that you are a liar. I simply don't believe you. Mind you I am speaking of atheists in a permissive society such as the USA, and not a theocracy that kills people for not believing. Atheists are applauded and rewarded in the world, except perhaps in their own private circles, if they happen to find themselves surrounded by thick-headed (carnal) theists.

[aestimatio]

@sailing19100 I don’t know if you are serious our just being a troll at this point. If you are serious, search using the following terms in Google to read about examples of atheists being fired:

1.) atheist fired fort dodge

2.) Amanda Donaldson fired atheist

Use the Youtube video id tag below to watch how a mother reacts when her son admits he is an atheist:

watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio The story of how a mother reacts when her son admits he is an atheist is irrelevant; that story is about her comportment only, or, another way, we cannot use a single person as an example to generalize. I will research the other two, thanks for the leads. I esteem that you are not a troll, nor am I, move beyond that.

[aestimatio]

@sailing19100 I never said all people, nor all Christians, act that way. It was an example to show that some people do react in a negative manner when they find out someone close to them is an atheists. If you do not believe people lose friends and family members when they tell them they are an atheist, your perception as to the degree to which many people have a negative view of atheists is not accurate.

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio aestimatio; of course atheists suffer that kind of persecution among their own private circles; i am not talking about that, because that is not persecution. That is akin to a kid who tells his friends "i won't smoke pot with you" suffering from peer pressure. We are not talking about that . We are talking about real persecution, where those who profess the name of Jesus are persecuted globally, while all other religions are welcomed and applauded as valid.

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio Researched both of them; they are not examples of persecution of atheists in society; they are examples of employers enforcing office policy. Do you really think a Catholic School who fires an atheistic teacher is persecuting that teacher? You must have heard of the concept of the right of free association? Would you argue that a Jew should be allowed to become Pope? These atheists approached their employers dishonestly, and were properly fired as a consequence.

[MyFamilyTribe]

@sailing19100 I did feel far more persecuted as a atheist then I do as a christian today. It is just a sad fact Christians today are doing much of the persecuting here in the US. Drive down any road and you see billboard promoting God everywhere. But when atheist try and put one up all hell brakes loose. Protest and threaten, etc...  watch?v=_j7IbRI9ZDY And then Christians are happy that they just trampled on other peoples free speech watch?v=dE0UjrUT4UQ And this is just some examples.

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio The first wave of persecution comes from the local church. When a church-goer first responds to God and strives to be a spirit-led believer and starts to obey Jesus, the first wave of persecution comes from his or her local church. He or she ends up being branded a heretic, and is forced to leave. Did this ever happen to you?

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio When you understand the words of Jesus, you realize that you don't need an IRA account or health insurance. When you realized this, did you tell others in your church that individual retirement accounts and reliance on health insurance were acts of the flesh, and in direct opposition to having faith in God? When you did that, what did they say to you? What happened? How did you react?

[aestimatio]

@sailing19100 You sound as if you are a bible literalist. Is this true?

[miking193]

@aestimatio God doesn't not want someone to know him, he gives us all the capacity to seek him out, but doesn't force it, he gives us the free choice, given the one choice is a horrible one. How did you seek God? What evidence lead you away? You do know that Jesus said the whole world is deceived by the devil & so lots of experts are going to say things that go along with Jesus isn't the messiah & here's why. Not that you don't hear what they have to say, you ask God is this true or deception

[aestimatio]

@miking193 You need to watch your own video. “ We’re talking about god almighty, not a butterfly, not something we can catch and run experiments on, but something that is all powerful all knowing and if he doesn’t want us to catch him, we’re not going to catch him and there is no way that you know you can try and even wrap him up in your logic or whatever and go because I am not able to dissect him…it doesn’t mean an all powerful being, who doesn’t want to be caught, doesn’t exist. ”

[sailing19100]

@aestimatio I do not perceive that God ever claimed to be "omnibenevolent". I perceive that God claims to be "absolutely sovereign".

[amadain17]

why would you consider it alright to believe in the existence of an intangible being like your particular god (there are many other people with other gods) and not alright to believe in a different intangible being like a leprechaun?

[miking193]

@amadain17 who says I don't believe in Leprechauns? they were demonic possessed people or fallen angels appearing to people, I don't think the story is just made up, they might not have looked like happy short red haired green hat & jacket beings, but I think leperchuns are how the celts or picts described fallen angels, Satan & fallen angels have appeared in many forms all over the world

[amadain17]

@miking193 Well is there any imaginary being that you don't beleive in the existence of? Whatever that being is why would you consider it alright to believe in the existence of an intangible being like your particular god (there are many other people with other gods) and not alright to believe in a different intangible being like a [insert imaginary being that you don't believe in the existence of's name here]?

[MyFamilyTribe]

@miking193 ''Leprechauns? they were demonic possessed people or fallen angels appearing to people''

HaHa! Now that is a first time I ever heard someone respond to the Leprechaun arguments like that.

[sailing19100]

@amadain17 In response to your question starting with "why would you consider it...." .....the answer is because the advent of Jesus Christ was prophesied all throughout the old testament bible of the Jews, even to the half-decade of his arrival here, most specifically by the prophet Daniel approximately 500 years before the advent of Jesus, and the proof is irrefutable that Jesus came as prophesied, and right on time.

[gusb232]

@sailing19100 'is irrefutable that Jesus came as prophesied'

This is far from irrefutable! Can you name ONE prophesy in the bible the could not have been staged by men, contrived, or self fullfilling?

Also Jesus's prophesies have failed Mark13:30, Matt 16:28

Also His birth stories are inconsistent. There is no year he could have been born that fit both lukes and matts birth naratives.

[sailing19100]

@gusb232 Gusb, just because an even can be contrived, it does not mean that it was. Using your logic, we could argue that Lincoln was not assasinated. Remember in the history of Exodus, how Pharoah's magicians performed many miracles. Doesn't the new testament also attest to the presence of false miracles, and contrivances, and heresies? However, if you study the book of Daniel and do the math, you will see that he prophesied the exact timing of the arrival of Jesus.

[gusb232]

@sailing19100 'can be contrived, it does not mean that it was'

Right no it does not, But it gives us no reason to believe it actually happened, unless you also want to believe every contrived prophesy of every religion.

'Pharoah's magicians performed many miracles' I dont think they did. but even so why couldnt just be such a sourcer and false prophet, read Duet 18, Jesus is a false prophet by the bible's standards. All his prophesy did not come true.

like the ones i mentioned.

[amadain17]

@sailing19100 Actually taylorx04 did a great series refusing the messianic prophecies called making a messiah. Jesus did not fulfil the messianic prophecies - this is why the jews don't accept him as god. The early chrsitians didn't either (read 'who wrote the new testament' by burton mack). Are you afraid to question the origins of your beliefs in case you find out something you won't like?

[sailing19100]

@amadain17 Jesus spoke to these kinds of Jews : "You search the scriptures looking for eternal life, and don't see that the scriptures speak of me". Spiritually blind bible scholars, Jews or not, are the norm, not the exception. I have read enough of the higher textual criticism to see that they all cling to the same weak arguments. The scriptures only point to Jesus, that's it. The Spirit of God reveals the rest (removes the veil of blindness).