Ash in an engine

[MastersOfInfinity]

I'd rather just have flying saucers.

Where is newnewscientist?

[ALAPAT1]

Better porn?

[sickdeathshappen]

actually they did this experiment on "Bang goes the theory" already

[Hemulen40]

Fire down below !

[deadNIGHTCRAWLER]

he ive seen that jump thingy on the top of can lids when i put a new one on the stove

[userwl2850]

this was shown on aircrash investigation, all 4 engines stopped on a BA flight, then restarted,,,,,, phewwww,

[M30W3R]

Why would I fly a jet in a cloud of volcanic ash

[roguemale57]

Ok, so the effect on the engines is temporary.But, other than airline companies, who would chance this?

[MastermindX]

I thought jet engines can only be turned on when the airplane is landed.

[SteffersFavourites]

Nice find

[GiantDoucheNG]

I wish I could see more pure research on NewScientist instead of this inane applied research crap.

[Hefotos]

@GiantDoucheNG

Inane? When you consider the economic disaster that Icelandic volcano caused, this area of applied research seems very relevant.

I doubt many people would be interested in my pure research into quaternion infinities. Most people are interested in applied science.

[RDJim]

So after your engines fail, just go into a dive until the engines cool and restart them 50 feet from the ground. No problem, I do it all the time for fun.

[PennyDreadfuI]

Have you ever seen the physical structure of volcanic ash? It's like tiny, jagged little bits of razor sharp glass. The moron taking the photos in the beginning of the video of airborne particles might want to wear a mask next time. Welcome to the wonderful world of mesothelioma.

[Fr0stBlade]

To all you "DOES THIS SAVE LIVES?!?!" retards. Science has NEVER been just dedicated to saving lives. So shut the fuck up already.

[tramvaj12]

@Fr0stBlade if you do not fly it doesn't save lives but if you do this actually can save your live.

[AreaQNH870]

@Fr0stBlade I think the answer you would be looking for is "Yes"

[Razzfazz87]

@Fr0stBlade "just" you mean never been dedicated to saving lives at all!

sience is for the heck of knowing stuff. research in a particular area.. well that you might want to argue.

Then again: if this research gets me to the bahamas this time why the hell not?

[Fr0stBlade]

@Razzfazz87 Thats my point. People seem to think if it wont save lives or cure cancer its not worth doing. And they wont hesitate to sit on their lazy ass and criticize others that are actually contributing.

[IbanezMetal]

@Fr0stBlade Apart from your correct statement, this can actually save lives, by knowing how much risk there is when an airplane flies through ashes.

[KuroTempest]

better of bringin old school propellers back into play me thinks..

[Pelonetillo]

so, just put some ice on it and itll pop off

[wtfizzjus]

@Pelonetillo and crack the engine...

[chris7toronto]

Cool

[asumazilla]

That is okay if all the ash stays on the outside, but if the dust is dense enough there is also the chance to block the cooling holes with ash.

[Colaglass]

is this the cure for cancer?

[XphR]

@Colaglass Yes, yes.. it is.

[HiJaayD]

@Colaglass LOL

[Fr0stBlade]

@Colaglass Well if you throw someone in a volcano or a jet engine it would eliminate the cancer, so.. yes.

[YousefNjjr]

This should help to save mores lives!!

[bawlfakash]

wtf man

[connardbomb]

okay folks we are now approaching the ash cloud; so for approximately the next 35 min we will be coasting without engines and flying blind. Please put on your seatbelt and refrain from standing.

[ki6eki]

umm.. ok. i guess knowing this is worth the money spent to recreate the scenario.. i mean i have my pilot's ifr license and i wouldn't even dare to enter a volcanic ash cloud..

[ORACLE063]

Shut down engine, engage liquid nitrogen spray (to cool), engage secondary fan (to blow away ash), restart engine.

[ericsbuds]

@ORACLE063 do jet engines really have liquid N2 spray available on board?

[annyonghaseyo90]

@ericsbuds Nope. But they have Freon fire extinguishers :)

[jackleg693]

I would still think twice if my pilot came over the tanoy and said "Sorry for the delay folks but as soon as the ash cools and falls out of our engines we'll be off"!

[daggerGforcefahrer]

why has this experiment never been done before - looks like anyone could do it in school?

[YuneShik]

@daggerGforcefahrer No one really thought of how heated and cooled ashes are affected on vanes. It's just like asking, "why hasn't anyone tried to heat acid acetylsalicylic on glass?"

[daggerGforcefahrer]

@YuneShik no it's not the same because it was already known that flying through clouds of volcanic ash may cause a plane to crash

[YuneShik]

@daggerGforcefahrer No you're only half correct. There was a story of a plane that stopped but a few moments later it started up again. THAT's the reason why they experimented this. Did you even read about the plane?

[egglumber]

so, if you could put superior cooling on the jet engines, this would no longer be a problem?

[Vrael1022]

@egglumber no, coz then the engine wouldnt work.

[Mrmtjones]

I was hoping they were putting the pokemon character in a jet engine

[YuneShik]

always with lame "clever comments" on these newscientist videos

[TravvyG]

Looks like it made it cleaner when the ash was coming off?

[littlestworkshop]

Blasting a stationary blade with ash using a sand blaster does not seem like any kind of scientific test to me.

[thenub641]

@littlestworkshop I was gonna say. It's sort of like if I tested the effects of a vacuum (space) by putting a vacuum hose up to my face haha.

But nonetheless, I guess that means if I plane where to fly through an ash cloud (and had enough engines) it could shut some down and run on others, and then switch them back on later and turn off the others, allowing for the engines to cool off and be clear of debris.

[YuneShik]

@littlestworkshop ok how else would you test to see why ashes stop jet engines? the point is still made about ashes when they are heated and when they are cooled on the same material.

[littlestworkshop]

@YuneShik You take an engine on a test bed and introduce ash.

[YuneShik]

@littlestworkshop Yeah and either way the discovery remains the same with less of a hassle.

[BonScottAC]

It puts the ash in the basket.

[catclips]

"ass in an engine"that would be an invention

[watermelonpizza]

This was on an episode of air crash investigations; its nothing new.

[Doviux09]

Mistake in the video, this problem was met practicly, when in 1984 I think, a 747 flew from australia to usa, over a ash cloud (volcano) somere in malaysia. The plane began glowing becouse of the static electricity, ant egines failed. Then they decended few miles without the engines (duh :D), and engines restarted cuz ash layer fell of after it cooled. The plane did not crash, but engines were damaged.

[DamienHell]

I saw this on mayday a couple years ago. The bigger threat is the ash scratching the windshield till you can't see through it, so even after you get out of the cloud you're flying blind.

[Mobbymick]

@DamienHell

Thats not a realy big deal.... the only thing the pilot does is the start... at least on flights with bigger airplanes.

[Satanic1992]

lovely experiment

[anthonyfoxtrott]

useless experiment. those samples don't imitate the cloud at all.

[myshoescramp]

@anthonyfoxtrott you think you know better than those scientists? how ignorant.

[anthonyfoxtrott]

@myshoescramp i responded above.

[gabe228]

@anthonyfoxtrott lmao what a dumbass

[anthonyfoxtrott]

@gabe228 i responded above.

[BillyBobsEel]

@anthonyfoxtrott What makes you say that?

[anthonyfoxtrott]

@BillyBobsEel the particles in a dust cloud will climb to different levels depending on their weight, temperature and electric charge. i see none of those conditions recreated in this video. if a volcano errupts in the near future, you'll hear the same thing - "we don't know what will happen if a jet engine is flown through an ash cloud". regarding the samples, there is no way you can take a trowel of ash and think it will behave anything like an ash cloud. so, who' s ignorant?

[gabe228]

@anthonyfoxtrott guess the ignorant tard didn't read the article, they only took the volcano dust that were able to reach the altitude of the plane based on their diameter. retard

[anthonyfoxtrott]

@gabe228 i give up. try diversifying your diet.

[reptilezsweden]

@anthonyfoxtrott So you don't think they have simplified and dumbed this down for the video ?

[BillyBobsEel]

@anthonyfoxtrott Fair enough but by recreating the condions as well as they can and using other knowledge or predictions i'm pretty sure they can get some very usefully information on what would happen.

[FocusWithin]

@anthonyfoxtrott We CAN say we now know what happens when ash meets a jet engine. No insignificant variable is going to take this away as ash all has similar properties and react the same as other ash when it hits a jet engine...

[MrValzen]

@anthonyfoxtrott

They had someone on BBC news who had to fly through it when they didn't know about it (different volcano a whileback) and his jet engine failed.

[MyFatMonkey]

@anthonyfoxtrott It doesn't imitate them perfect, of course. But it shows at least roughly how the engines are effected - Which is always a good first start to a full and detailed explanation.

[Canonpixmalogitechko]

Would have been more fun if they just blew some ash into a jet engine and watched what happened.

[tomek123kotek]

they did that with chickens. why dont they do it with ash like you said?

[Destro7000]

cool, some proper experimental proof there - they went out and actually tested it!

(wonder why they didn't do that at the time of the groundings though?)

[drakenbakken]

seriously wtf all they did is report what happened. this is the science channel WHY DOES IT DO THAT!

[MilitantPeaceist]

@drakenbakken

The ash is super heated silicate (glass) which has a 'charge'. The particles would be attracted to the metal surface of the turbine which is charged (static) & heated too. When cooled the 'charge' either drops or reverses (I do not know the electron outer shell for this to be acurate) & would then either shatter off or be repelled off.

That's the best armchair tale I can give you 8)

[drakenbakken]

@MilitantPeaceist

thank you! I thought something like that, why didnt they say that in the flipping video? lol

[MilitantPeaceist]

@drakenbakken Coz they have better drugs than I do 8s

[martiangrundy]

@MilitantPeaceist

Surely not. Surely the forces would not be enough to repel it?

Is it not more likely down to the differential of expansion/contraction rates of the different materials as they cool? Literally just cracking off the material, as the metallic blade contracts at a greater rate than the silicate.

Indeed an analog of this would be the flux pinging of a weld bead as the job cools, in the case of an old flux covered rod type arc welder.

Seems more probable to me at any rate.

[MilitantPeaceist]

@martiangrundy

Yes you could be correct with that too. Just like a thermostat with 2 substances that conduct heat at different rates, so would this effect this situation as well.

I still would not rule out charge as that, in the end, would be the reason why it stuck in the 1st place or at least aided the cohesion. The silicate would cool faster & shatter off.

So I would think it would be a mixture of both but I would not rule out charge as heated electrons behave completely different to cool.

[martiangrundy]

@MilitantPeaceist

I'm not sure I agree. I'd imagine it's a possibility in adhering originally, (like a powder coating process uses) but not in the "cracking off". Surely the forces would be too small for the particle size then.

Also one would need to take into account the polarities. To coat, the polarities would need to be opposite, then only one would need to switch polarity, in order to be repelled. But the pieces now are far larger than the powder particles.

Needs further thought though EH?

[MilitantPeaceist]

@martiangrundy

The polarity would only need to switch on 1 surface & heat creates excited electrons that pass more freely thus creating charge - so a pseudo charge could be formed by the silicate & on cooling & contracting be 'helped' to repel. Hey I am 25 years out of school, this is all basic guess work from me. I do know however that those chips did not fall off,...

[MastermindX]

@MilitantPeaceist Yeah, reverse the polarity. It always works. For anything.

[MilitantPeaceist]

@MastermindX

Not as effective as empty assertions ;)

[MilitantPeaceist]

... they were propelled & as much as the force on the glass itself would crack it & have potential >> kinetic energy, a change of charge will have to be present.

I do believe they should have gone further into it but I just like throwing in tangents that do in fact exist. I do know that if the created a pseudo charge that was the same as heated sillicate, the sillicate would be more reluctant to adhere to the metal surface in the 1st place. ...

[MilitantPeaceist]

...

So maybe my hypothesis is incorrect but the idea does in fact have physical applications with further deliberations on the 1st idea I posed. If I was einstein, you think I would have time to watch these shitty vids? LMAO ;)

[martiangrundy]

@MilitantPeaceist

Einstein indeed. HA HA HA! nice one. :-)

There aren't many of those around.

[MilitantPeaceist]

@martiangrundy

Well 2 minds, lol.The turbine rotating will create charge + heat 'may' exagerate that charge. But I do think what you said sounds logical in the way that the transfer of energy would cause the now 'chip' to gather momentum enough to repell. So after allowing these inferior drugs to wain from my membrain :) your addition of 'electroplating' + a pseudo charge could solve that problem.

Sha ching ;)

[MilitantPeaceist]

@martiangrundy I still like the idea of sticking a rocket booster up the arse of the plane though - so much more exciting & gut wrenching for the passengers HAHAHAHAHA.

[marsCubed]

@martiangrundy About my previous comment, I did not mean to imply that you were stupid.

I should have said that you were too easily dismissive, you would benefit IMO from a deeper understanding of wave particle duality and what is meant by conduction of electrons through a conductor for instance.

I threw in ridicule because you dismissed my contribution with what seems to me to be a much weaker understanding.

No hard feelings.. I am off to watch other vids.

[martiangrundy]

@marsCubed

No, No hard feelings whatsoever M8.

By the way, I'm pretty well acquainted with quantum theory, and wave particle duality.

As I stated earlier on, I wasn't looking to explain in-depth, or model the system. 500 chars is a little limiting for such.

I still can't ascertain what you thought was wrong with anything that I stated.

You still have not answered about the phonon, being a quasi particle?

You seemed to be suggesting it was a real physical particle. Am I wrong in my understanding?

[marsCubed]

@martiangrundy "Literally just cracking off the material"

You are describing sound in the observed phenomenon?

Sound comes in packets; quanta of energy called phonons. crystaline lattice elasticity, bonds between molecules & atoms, exchange of electrons, the harmonics & resonances of materials, L is made smaller with shrinkage, E somewhere grows.

Just saying it 'cracks off' is not really an explanation.

Although it kinda is, but understanding what that actually means is useful too.

[martiangrundy]

@marsCubed

I wasn't attempting to describe any real processes. And certainly not down to the atomic physical modelling. 500 chars is a little limiting for such. It isn't necessaries to get a general grasp of what's occurring, it's a simple first approximation to describe it as sound being the compression and rarefaction of the air, (or material/media it is travelling through), causing our ears to vibrate in sympathy.

And phonon's actually DON't really exist as such. They are a

Cont.---

[martiangrundy]

@marsCubed

---Cont.

quasi particle. A way of measuring/describing/quantizin­g a phenomenon to make it easier to model. In effect trying to simplify a many body problem.

If it was indeed a real particle would sound not also travel through space/vacuum?

And it does actually just crack off, the differing rates of change create stress between them until it can take no more and breaks off, the ensuing vibrations are the energy still left in the system dissipating naturally.

Modelling is more detailed.

[marsCubed]

@martiangrundy You're probably right, not my field, If Phonons were massless, had zero rest energy and yet were somehow able to carry momentum Just like photons do in fact, then it would be you who seemed stupid. Don't bother examining lattice electrical bond dynamics of cooling solids.

Gremlins & smoke dragons obviously did it. Fit planes with joss-sticks & lucky charms to encourage stuff to luckily 'crack off' turbine blades.

Solved on YouTube, EastJet should give you an award or something.

[martiangrundy]

@marsCubed

What the fuck are you talking about?

Gremlins and dragons, are you all there? Or just trying to imply something I NEVER said.

SO are phonon's a REAL particle then, in your opinion?

Stop trying to sound intelligent, and answer simple questions.

IF phonon's are indeed real, why do they need a medium? Why does sound NOT propagate through a vacuum?

Why are they refereed to as quasi particles, as indeed an electron hole is referred to as a quasi particle. And NOT a real particle.

[marsCubed]

@martiangrundy LOL

[marsCubed]

@MilitantPeaceist Actually if you look through the comments, the ridicule came the other way first.

[MilitantPeaceist]

@marsCubed apologies - it was unfair of me to unload like that, energy from a different thread, no excuse - apologies.

[marsCubed]

@MilitantPeaceist Same here, no problem. :)

[tw1stedgrudge]

Obviously there is no way to fix this problem then.

People should return to the more important research - like curing cancer. Instead of vandalizing and damaging property to find out how we cannot fix something.

[martiangrundy]

@tw1stedgrudge

Absolutely. They should have just nose dived a jet into the caldera of an active volcano instead, (fully loaded of course). That would have been a far far more reliable test. And it wouldn't need any fixing after that test too. Bonus.

In fact fill it up with cancer patients, and there's even less to worry about. Multiple bonus.

[tw1stedgrudge]

@martiangrundy LOL, Nice to meet you again. xD

Well, technically I was arguing against the destruction of expensive pieces of machinery to find out something we largely already know. A highschool kid would tell you that ash would fall off as it cools, because though it sticks, the shape would change upon cooling. Obviously. That, and the destruction and loss of precious and highly specialized habitats such as ash fields for the sake of some scientific curiosity is not excusable!

[VulgarityDivine]

Now, how can this be applied to porn?

[MilitantPeaceist]

@VulgarityDivine

"Now, how can this be applied to porn?"

Whilst fucking the friction + volcanic ash can cause a 'rough rider' effect to create more agonisingly erotic & realistic moans from the actress & while just after blowing can add to the 'Kat-ching" as the particles fly off - can even be dyed to support breast cancer week or of the likes.

8p

[Vortex42]

I do wonder if the "period of cooling" which would allow the plane to restart it's engines, is equal to or greater than the drop in altitude which would take the plane down to the point where it cannot re-ascend.

[MilitantPeaceist]

@Vortex42 Very good point, you also have the problem of the arc angle of re elevation - a heavy plane needs to travel further along the curcumference of an arc to level the altitude to allow the ailerons to create lift in order to gain atitude as well or needs to be a shit load off the surface to be able to arc out.

1 possible solution would be to have back up engines just powerful enough to allow extra speed to create extra lift or too have rocket boosters to take over while the turbine cools.

[Vortex42]

@MilitantPeaceist : I like your suggestions, and it would be great if airlines would install those kind of features on passenger aircraft... However, it's far more likely that they will simply continue to strongarm governments, aviation authorities and the meterological organisations to allow them to continue flying passenger aircraft through potentially dangerous ash clouds.

[MilitantPeaceist]

@Vortex42

That is one thing that would be worse than dying instantly hitting the ground, that is slowly sinking into molten lava 8(

I fear you are right though.

[thethingthatwants]

good to know

[TurboHertz]

I saw this on mayday years ago...

[ItchyFlea1]

One of the suggested videos to watch is 'Burn Baby Burn'...

[zeesmash17]

I DO

3RD!!

LOL

[TheYou0Tuber]

I dont want to say it...