What a useless debate! mine was a practical discourse! obvious that the two instruments are constitutionally different. Enjoy Hindemith rather than continue this discussion!
"The Heckelphone is often confused with Lorée's redesigned hautbois baryton which was introduced in 1889, the term "bass oboe" being widely used to describe both instruments."
"The Heckelphone has also been employed in chamber music, one of the most notable instances being Hindemith's Trio for Heckelphone, Viola, and Piano, Op. 47 (1928)."
Just saw Alpensymphonie of Strauss on You Tube. At long last, the heckelphone is quite visible next to the cor anglais where it belongs. That's the one with Sinopoli conducting. Worth a visit for all heckelphonophiles.
Cool, who are the performers? I have Arthur Grossman's recording of this...he actually did get his instrument on eBay. Heckelphone and bass oboe are subtly different. I have tried and written for bass oboe and it really is basically like a large English horn, whereas the Heckelphone has a somewhat bigger, slightly-saxlike sound by comparison.
I like the warm sound this player gets. Bass oboes fit better with the higher oboes, in my opinion, but I also think this sounds great.
@nineblackkasabian Not that different since if you can't get your hand on one you can use the other. Not as different as a clarinet and an alto sax for example, which are basically the same thing in two different materials.
Not at all our friend, Madame Amar the 'double-reedist" of the Montreal Symphony Orchestra owns both a bass oboe AND a heckelphone. During a performance of Alpensymfonie she used bass oboe since the Heckel had a leak.. or something. Later on, for ELEKTRA in concert,the heckelphone was back to my great pleasure.I do not confuse Engl. Horn with Heckelphone, not at all the same. regards
love that piece and love the heckelphone.but why no pic of a musician playing it??? all major orchestras have an heckelphone, but cant see it on video
Not to be a pain, but perhaps it would be more accurate to say "all major orchestras can get ahold of a heckelphone." Man, I wish every orchestra in the world had one.
All major orchestras definitely do NOT have a Heckelphon, as Heckel manufactured only about 40 of them. They are rentable, however. There was one on Ebay years back, and it went for $15,600!
Recorded in 1964, the musician is oboist John Ellis playing Heckelphone #33 (German system, "thin wall") borrowed from Don Christlieb. Heckelphone #33 was next owned by Jon Clark, now by Chris Bleth. Out of perhaps a dozen or so recordings made to date, this 1964 John Ellis recording is still most often cited as being THE premiere recording of the Hindemith Trio Opus 47...
How do you know it is a heckelphone? The one on the picture is of course a heckelphone, but the one playing doesn't have a low B-flat and therefore I think it is a bass-oboe. Soundwise it is difficult to say which one it is.
it is a heckelphone! ...apart from the fact that this piece was designed specifically for a heckelphone and not a bass oboe, I don't think it's so important: can you distinguish the almost identical sound of the two instruments?? If yes, then congratulations for your talent...
And, you are right, soundwise the instruments are quite close to each other. However, a heckelphone has much more power. The reason why I think this is a bass oboe is that the player has to play the low B-flat in the end by closing the bell of the instrument (works pretty well!).
The heckelphone has deeper and richer sound (it has a more conical bore), it can clearly be heard on the Berliner Philharmoniker / Karajan "Planets" recording, which has a Heckelphone. I also have a recording of this Hindemith trio with a Heckelphone, the difference is clear. When listening to a bass oboe you can't be sure it's not a bassoon, but a Heckelphone's tone is something special, more akin to the English horn.
actually Holst specifically wrote for Bass Oboe in The Planets, and if you listen carefully to the bassoon soli in Uranus, when the bass oboe joins in it sounds completely different.
It is still often played on a Heckelphone and without doubt on the BP recording. I think there isn't any manufacturer that has produced Bass oboes, Lorée and Rigutat sell Baritone oboes but a bass oboe is just a word over either the Heckelphone and the Baritone oboe.
"The Orchestra is the largest Holst ever used. In this he was no doubt influenced by the recent scores of Schoenberg, Strauss and Stravinsky. The so-called bass oboe (either baritone oboe or heckelphone) he might have learned from Strauss;" - from page V in the Eulenburg edition of The Planets score.
I have already explained that, in my opinion, this difference is not so strong...
is not to be polemical: we talk about two different instruments, of course, but extremely similar, as the basset horn and the contralto clarinet, for exemple.
If they were so differents, don't you believe that their use would be more differentiated?
@akseli88 There is a HUGE difference between the Basset Horn and Contra alto clarinet; almost an octave difference. Maybe you meant to compare the BH to an Alto Clar. but there is a substantial difference between those as well.
With all do respect, Bari. Oboes and Hecklephones are Vastly different; Bore dimensions, reeds, Range tone quality. You must not be a wind player to group this very different instruments in together...
@akseli88 As a musician and composer, I'm gonna say they're very different. Sorry pal. It's pretty important to tone-color minded people, and musicians in general.
@akseli88 Okay, to show you how wrong you are, here's the downward progression of pitch in the clarinet family from the Basset Horn to the Contralto: Clarinet in A -> Basset Horn in F -> Alto Clarinet in E-flat -> Bass Clarinet in B-flat -> Contralto Clarinet in EE-flat. See, the Basset horn is pitched an octave and one whole step apart from the contralto clarinet. not to mention contralto has a double octave key. they are different in virtually every way, save both being clarinets...
@Trey5511 Not QUITE right. The Basset Horn goes down to F2 (the bottom space on the bass staff); the alto only goes down to G2 or G-flat2 in some cases. Not much of a distinction in terms of range, but they sound different from what I've read.
The contra alto (that is the correct name) is pitched an octave lower than the alto (apparently some can go lower).
@Trey5511 I meant by "alto / contralto" something different from "contra-alto / sub-contralto". It's esay to misunderstandings... Then stop, please, I prefer to enjoy the trio!!!
you are absolutely right...but it is also true that many composers, especially british, have used the name "bass oboe" for both instruments, without difference, so that it became impossible to understand what they refer... and then the difference between the two instruments is really minimal: the heckelphone simply has a wider bell, which produces a more powerful sound, and a slightly different fingering system... basically they are extremely similar, and the heckelphone is more "commonly" used
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the Heckelphone also has an extension down to low A that the bass oboe lacks, so there's a slightly larger range difference as well.
no it still uses teh "bagpipe bell" principal where th eair expands and is then forced tehrough an aopening he same size as the bore of the sinstrument which is found on most oboes.
the hekelphone should not be used in the place of the bass oboe. they were invented for two different pourposes. the bass oboe to be a bass oboe the heckelphone to combine the sound of the bassoon with that of the alphorn
What a useless debate! mine was a practical discourse! obvious that the two instruments are constitutionally different. Enjoy Hindemith rather than continue this discussion!
akseli88 6 months ago
is it midi-file?
ViolerMuxa 9 months ago
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ViolerMuxa 9 months ago
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ViolerMuxa 9 months ago
THis is really great !! Thank you !
leuven1945 10 months ago
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ThaMastaOfGuitars 10 months ago
thanks a lot for letting to hear how the instrument sounds
pinturner 11 months ago
I can't believe I've never heard this before! I've fallen in love with this piece! :D
MELONMOVIES 1 year ago
From Wiki:
"The Heckelphone is often confused with Lorée's redesigned hautbois baryton which was introduced in 1889, the term "bass oboe" being widely used to describe both instruments."
"The Heckelphone has also been employed in chamber music, one of the most notable instances being Hindemith's Trio for Heckelphone, Viola, and Piano, Op. 47 (1928)."
aculturemind 1 year ago
@aculturemind wikipedia isnt the most reliable of sources lets be honist, i could go on there and change it right now.
mikeycraigsluman 1 year ago
@mikeycraigsluman
And it would likely get changed back pretty soon. Usually does. They have 'checking' resources, you know.
This attitude by many about Wiki is the same kind of fuddy-duddiness that condemned Tesla.
aculturemind 1 year ago
Just saw Alpensymphonie of Strauss on You Tube. At long last, the heckelphone is quite visible next to the cor anglais where it belongs. That's the one with Sinopoli conducting. Worth a visit for all heckelphonophiles.
papoocanada 1 year ago
Hi, who are the performers here? and which part of the piece is it?
kgskaug 1 year ago
I found one on a skip once. It's now a very attractive support for this years tomatoes in my greenhouse!
TheRalphieginger 1 year ago
The heckelphone and the baryton oboe are not the same, the sonority is different.
NoirOrchestre 2 years ago 3
Cool, who are the performers? I have Arthur Grossman's recording of this...he actually did get his instrument on eBay. Heckelphone and bass oboe are subtly different. I have tried and written for bass oboe and it really is basically like a large English horn, whereas the Heckelphone has a somewhat bigger, slightly-saxlike sound by comparison.
I like the warm sound this player gets. Bass oboes fit better with the higher oboes, in my opinion, but I also think this sounds great.
philidor2005 2 years ago
The bass oboe is different than the heckelphone. two completely different instruments...
nineblackkasabian 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
YES COMPLETELY. Oboe is a kind of drum and the heckelphone is the member of the lute family.
madaraszi 2 years ago
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BandolAFL 2 years ago
@nineblackkasabian Not that different since if you can't get your hand on one you can use the other. Not as different as a clarinet and an alto sax for example, which are basically the same thing in two different materials.
lennic95 1 year ago
Beautiful,rich rhythmic frenzy> Thanks for posting.
eddyvibe 2 years ago
the planets has a bass oboe in it, big solo in saturn.
the crocks on a bass oboe are different from a hecklephone...
mikeycraigsluman 2 years ago 2
Not at all our friend, Madame Amar the 'double-reedist" of the Montreal Symphony Orchestra owns both a bass oboe AND a heckelphone. During a performance of Alpensymfonie she used bass oboe since the Heckel had a leak.. or something. Later on, for ELEKTRA in concert,the heckelphone was back to my great pleasure.I do not confuse Engl. Horn with Heckelphone, not at all the same. regards
papoocanada 2 years ago
love that piece and love the heckelphone.but why no pic of a musician playing it??? all major orchestras have an heckelphone, but cant see it on video
papoocanada 2 years ago
Not to be a pain, but perhaps it would be more accurate to say "all major orchestras can get ahold of a heckelphone." Man, I wish every orchestra in the world had one.
TheThomasChannel 2 years ago 6
They certainly haven't. What you've seen playing in "all major orchestras" is an English Horn.
klausthemusician 2 years ago 9
All major orchestras definitely do NOT have a Heckelphon, as Heckel manufactured only about 40 of them. They are rentable, however. There was one on Ebay years back, and it went for $15,600!
pfitzner1 2 years ago
Recorded in 1964, the musician is oboist John Ellis playing Heckelphone #33 (German system, "thin wall") borrowed from Don Christlieb. Heckelphone #33 was next owned by Jon Clark, now by Chris Bleth. Out of perhaps a dozen or so recordings made to date, this 1964 John Ellis recording is still most often cited as being THE premiere recording of the Hindemith Trio Opus 47...
heckelmaniac 2 years ago
Who plays on this recording?
hautboisjj 2 years ago
That's quite some piano playing.
sshuck 2 years ago
This would transcribe well to sax
topologyrob 3 years ago
It is actually sometimes played on a sax insted of a heckelphone. I think there is even a note in the score about that possibility.
BlueCougar 3 years ago
Actually there is a optional tenor sax part. its transcribed by hindemith and sounds great!
jazsax 2 years ago
Cool piece..... but then again I am a violist who has spent a fair amount of time playing Hindemith. Thanks for posting this. :-)
isabellanakahara 3 years ago
it sounds awkward..
OboeforLife 3 years ago
yes...yes it does
McInc101 3 years ago
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McInc101 3 years ago
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jiwonast222 3 years ago
oh my god bass oboes are so much fun to play!
but when I played one, it seemed very akward to hold and play..
birdeeboo 3 years ago
oh, this is a heckelphone. not a bass oboe! there is a defference!
photographreek 3 years ago
I know but with all the talk of bass oboes on here, I just had to say something.
birdeeboo 3 years ago
How do you know it is a heckelphone? The one on the picture is of course a heckelphone, but the one playing doesn't have a low B-flat and therefore I think it is a bass-oboe. Soundwise it is difficult to say which one it is.
TurhamRanger 3 years ago
it is a heckelphone! ...apart from the fact that this piece was designed specifically for a heckelphone and not a bass oboe, I don't think it's so important: can you distinguish the almost identical sound of the two instruments?? If yes, then congratulations for your talent...
akseli88 3 years ago
Yes Akseli but do you know who's playing it here?
And, you are right, soundwise the instruments are quite close to each other. However, a heckelphone has much more power. The reason why I think this is a bass oboe is that the player has to play the low B-flat in the end by closing the bell of the instrument (works pretty well!).
TurhamRanger 3 years ago
The heckelphone has deeper and richer sound (it has a more conical bore), it can clearly be heard on the Berliner Philharmoniker / Karajan "Planets" recording, which has a Heckelphone. I also have a recording of this Hindemith trio with a Heckelphone, the difference is clear. When listening to a bass oboe you can't be sure it's not a bassoon, but a Heckelphone's tone is something special, more akin to the English horn.
Iloerk 3 years ago
actually Holst specifically wrote for Bass Oboe in The Planets, and if you listen carefully to the bassoon soli in Uranus, when the bass oboe joins in it sounds completely different.
ndosg15 2 years ago
It is still often played on a Heckelphone and without doubt on the BP recording. I think there isn't any manufacturer that has produced Bass oboes, Lorée and Rigutat sell Baritone oboes but a bass oboe is just a word over either the Heckelphone and the Baritone oboe.
Iloerk 2 years ago
"The Orchestra is the largest Holst ever used. In this he was no doubt influenced by the recent scores of Schoenberg, Strauss and Stravinsky. The so-called bass oboe (either baritone oboe or heckelphone) he might have learned from Strauss;" - from page V in the Eulenburg edition of The Planets score.
Iloerk 2 years ago
Who is actually playing the bass oboe here?
TurhamRanger 3 years ago
The heckelphone and bass oboe are two very different instruments.
cellofellow1223 3 years ago
two VERY different instrument?????
I have already explained that, in my opinion, this difference is not so strong...
is not to be polemical: we talk about two different instruments, of course, but extremely similar, as the basset horn and the contralto clarinet, for exemple.
If they were so differents, don't you believe that their use would be more differentiated?
akseli88 3 years ago 2
@akseli88 There is a HUGE difference between the Basset Horn and Contra alto clarinet; almost an octave difference. Maybe you meant to compare the BH to an Alto Clar. but there is a substantial difference between those as well.
With all do respect, Bari. Oboes and Hecklephones are Vastly different; Bore dimensions, reeds, Range tone quality. You must not be a wind player to group this very different instruments in together...
srmarvel 2 years ago 3
@akseli88 As a musician and composer, I'm gonna say they're very different. Sorry pal. It's pretty important to tone-color minded people, and musicians in general.
c0rv377 1 year ago
@akseli88 Okay, to show you how wrong you are, here's the downward progression of pitch in the clarinet family from the Basset Horn to the Contralto: Clarinet in A -> Basset Horn in F -> Alto Clarinet in E-flat -> Bass Clarinet in B-flat -> Contralto Clarinet in EE-flat. See, the Basset horn is pitched an octave and one whole step apart from the contralto clarinet. not to mention contralto has a double octave key. they are different in virtually every way, save both being clarinets...
Trey5511 8 months ago
@Trey5511 Not QUITE right. The Basset Horn goes down to F2 (the bottom space on the bass staff); the alto only goes down to G2 or G-flat2 in some cases. Not much of a distinction in terms of range, but they sound different from what I've read.
The contra alto (that is the correct name) is pitched an octave lower than the alto (apparently some can go lower).
There is also a B-flat contrabass.
MaestroTJS 7 months ago
@Trey5511 I meant by "alto / contralto" something different from "contra-alto / sub-contralto". It's esay to misunderstandings... Then stop, please, I prefer to enjoy the trio!!!
akseli88 6 months ago
the heckelphone is different from the bass oboe and the baritone oboe
fagottist 3 years ago
you are absolutely right...but it is also true that many composers, especially british, have used the name "bass oboe" for both instruments, without difference, so that it became impossible to understand what they refer... and then the difference between the two instruments is really minimal: the heckelphone simply has a wider bell, which produces a more powerful sound, and a slightly different fingering system... basically they are extremely similar, and the heckelphone is more "commonly" used
akseli88 3 years ago
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the Heckelphone also has an extension down to low A that the bass oboe lacks, so there's a slightly larger range difference as well.
HerrWozzeck 3 years ago 3
I thought that a heckelphone's bell vents the sound out the side of the bell, and not out the bottom.
AudredDax 3 years ago
no it still uses teh "bagpipe bell" principal where th eair expands and is then forced tehrough an aopening he same size as the bore of the sinstrument which is found on most oboes.
the hekelphone should not be used in the place of the bass oboe. they were invented for two different pourposes. the bass oboe to be a bass oboe the heckelphone to combine the sound of the bassoon with that of the alphorn
fagottist 3 years ago
totally agree. but this doesn't alter the fact that the heckelphone, in practice, is almost always used in place of the bass oboe
akseli88 3 years ago
well it bloody well should affect the situation.
fagottist 3 years ago
@akseli88 no it's not. there is a significant difference in bore shape and, as result thereof, projection tendencies of both
also why are you so insistent that they are virtually the same when they are not?
brutusbassoon 1 year ago