Dr. Steve Wiseman Investigates Thomas Szasz Scientology [1/6]

[Chuichupachichi]

I'd like Steve Wiseman to explain in a scientifically empirical manner, how it is that the immaterial mind can be made ill by an immaterial culprit? I have previously posed this question to mental health professionals & others. The problem is not that they presented invalid replies. The problem is that not one has ever replied

Simply the fact that every entry into the DSM is not determined by the scientific method, but by the subjective process of voting, is sufficient to invalidate Psychiatry

[Chuichupachichi]

Governmental authoritarianism has used the credibility attributed to Psychiatry by the uninformed public, for the purpose of circumnavigating American law. Legally speaking, the government can impose its will upon a person, only if due process results in a conviction, based upon evidence. Its important to note that "evidence" is objective. In short, governmental imposition is legal only if derived from objective conclusions

[Chuichupachichi]

However, government often imposes its will upon lives, based upon a "professional opinion". The adjective is irrelevant because whether its professional, amateur, novice or expert, in the end, its still merely an opinion. But opinions are subjective & hardly are they evidence. Worse yet, they often do this to persons not even charged with a crime. Objective & subjective are at opposite ends from each other. This type of imposition is a violation of American law

BTW, empiricism is also objective

[Transmintosity]

... to conceal their role as agents of social control and the role of the hospital as total institution. The reason why so many patients are are resistent to the coercive interventions is because they are fully cognisant of the fact that psychiatrists are not acting in their best interests (a rationale used by inquisitors and slaveowners), but acting in the interests of themselves, third-parties, the pharmaceutical companies etc.

[Mrscientificmethod]

@Transmintosity I fully agree with your position. I am currently attempting to debate 13Heathens about Szasz... I feel I am losing.. probably because my intellect is inferior to Szasz and I cannot compete with the Anonymous totalitarian herd. Bah!!

[Transmintosity]

You say the vast majority of psychiatrists are dedicated and empathic, but this is what I call the majority fallacy, the belief that the majority are unimpeachable, a preponderant misconception, but in my opinion, this is irreconcilable to the true mandate of the psychiatrist. Psychiatrists work, in their many situational contexts, usually in the interests of the social and political hegemony, only it has always used the iconography of the hospital and the idiom of medicine and caring...

[Transmintosity]

Persianelephant claims that if Szasz had had a friend who went through what he did, he wouldn't be so dismissive. I've had these some problems mislabeled as mental illnesses and am aquainted with many people as I have on de facto mental prisons at both ends of the socio-economic spectrum, and I agree with Szasz. Love does not furnish you with insight into people's problems. Szasz's view does not marginalize, it empowers the patient who labours against his wishes under psychiatric tutelage.

[Mrscientificmethod]

Dr Wiseman states 'In fact what he (Szasz) talks about, what he’s talked about in his entire career, as far as I can tell, are simply words and definitions.' Dr Wiseman... what do you use to talk with apart from words and the definition of those words?

[Transmintosity]

@Mrscientificmethod Exactly, and the reason why Mr Weaselman refuses to acknowledge that words are not mere labels and means of communicating, is because the meaning and the effect are in the eyes of the stigmatised and the wise, and not in the eyes of those who do the stigmatising and avail themselves of the instrumental-function of those words, like slaveowners availed themselves of them.

[anonymous915]

Szasz's views don't just come from libertarianism - they are soundly based in science. In the absence of pathological evidence there is no "illness" - if there was it would be handled by neurologists.

[nicmart]

It is surely a remarkable coincidence that there is not a single objective physical finding to affirm any psychiatric diagnosis. It is equally remarkable that every time a "psychiatric" disorder has been found to have physiological basis (e.g., epilepsy) it instantly becomes a neurologic disorder which nobody would dream of having a psychiatrist treat. By definition, psychiatrists treat "disorders" with no biological basis.

[whiff1962]

@nicmart There is not remarkable about this. The notion of "diagnosis" in psychiatry, and what the enterprise (and what an enterprise it is!) defines as a disease state, is so far removed from anything meaningfully scientific and medical. However, I do believe that the latter troubles the mainstay of the profession, in the least. Psychiatry, as Dr. Szasz has cogently stated, is a moral-legalistic enterprise and has increasingly come to be used as an apparatus of the state (and its status quo).

[nicmart]

@whiff1962

As Szasz has noted, there was never a time when psychiatry was not coercive.

[whiff1962]

@nicmart It is a feature of present-day society, and very much an extra-legal means of punitive sanction, certainly used against individuals that the state finds to be problematic, i.e. whose political act cannot be justified, only pathlogized. Most psychiatrists work for the state in an important capacity.

[whiff1962]

There is nothing remarkable about this. The notion of "diagnosis" in psychiatry, and what the enterprise (and what an enterprise it is!) defines as a disease state, is so far removed from anything meaningfully scientific and medical. However, I do believe that the latter troubles the mainstay of the profession, in the least. Psychiatry, as Dr. Szasz has cogently stated, is a moral-legalistic enterprise and has increasingly come to be used as an apparatus of the state (and its status quo).

[nicmart]

Why accept second-hand interpretation when you can simply read Szasz's writings? Start with his book, "Insanity: The Idea and Its Consequences."

[rjgignac]

Also, to suggest that Szasz doesn't get at the "essence" of mental illness, or that he ignores the "experience" of patients is to entirely miss the point. That charge is precisely what Szasz feels the psycho-pharmaceutical paradigm is guilty of. The "essence" of a mental disorder is hardly the simple DSM derived symptoms, but rather the full breadth of political/economic/social hurdles, road blocks, and incarcerations that go along with them. That, I think Szasz would argue, is the "experience".

[persianelephant]

@rjgignac I agree with you- it is frustrating when people marginalize those suffering from mental illness and they often don't realize it. I am currently training to be a psychiatrist myself and I agree that when a clinician focuses solely on interviews, checklists and DSM, they run the risk of missing the bigger picture. I have had family who suffered from depression. I have seen poor therapists but in my experience they are the minority.

[persianelephant]

The vast majority of psychiatrists are dedicated empathic individual's who take a patient-centered approach to care. Although Szasz has done a lot to raise awareness about patient rights, his denial of the existence of mental diseases has done a lot of harm. We need to recognize mental illness in the communities in order to help people get treatment. The family member I told you about dropped out of school because of her depression- a lot of people didn't understand why she wouldn't

[persianelephant]

@rjgignac get out of bed in the morning. Why she seemed distant and treated everyone rudely. They didn't recognize that she had depression and thus people started to argue with her and ignore her (including me). Some of her friends even judged her as being lazy. It took three months before she got treatment (dropped out of school, went on medication and therapy) and she has felt much better since. I really wish people wouldn't make the assumption that every depressed person is suffering

[persianelephant]

@rjgignac from personal grief or simply having a bad day. If Szasz had a family member who went through what I did (ie. seeing someone you love repeatedly try and fail to live a normal life) he wouldn't be so dismissive of mental illness. Extremist views such as 'everyone has mental illness' or 'nobody has mental illness' are two sides of the same coin. Both marginalize sufferers. We need to take an evidence based approach to do whatever is necessary to help people live normal lives.

[Mrscientificmethod]

@persianelephant You show your ignorance of what Szasz is saying. He does not say that 'mental illness' does not exist. Only that it is not a 'disease'. That this term is metaphorical which has become literalised. The results of this misunderstanding have been catastophic. Even today millions of young children are being forcibly drugged in order to change their behavious on the pretense that they are 'ill' and need to be 'cured' . This is outrageous.

[rjgignac]

Szasz is not suggesting that we simply play a game of semantics with diagnostic terms. Rather, he is suggesting that because we are already embroiled within a game of (political/economic/social) semantics, we ought to pay close attention to where and how power is exercised with respect to the diagnostic terms we use if we are to be sure that power is exercised responsibly (democratically, ethically, etc...)

[SuperDelta000]

this guy was probably an alcoholic and drug user as a child.

[SuperDelta000]

This guy is a dangerous criminal.. beware.

[uberhandle]

Wow, he could be Toby Flenderson's twin.

[arthurbraxton]

wiseman has a very stilted, bizarre manner of speech...he's definitely depressed! commit him to the nearest psychiatric hospital immediately!!

[gdbruyck]

If you talk to God, you are praying. If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.

[TubeShooter9]

Look at this guy's body language. Who cares about his words. He doesn't believe in himself. Szasz is dangerous for the same reasons as Osho; he speaks truth and is a contrarian.

[annoncangirl]

Thank you so much for posting this....there are so many people that suffer (me included) with real Psychiatric conditions that never venture to seek help because they have been told by uneducated and uninformed individuals that there is nothing wrong with them. The stigma created by said individuals does even more to harm those suffering. Mental Illness is real...and there are more treatments available to patients today than drug therapy, such as CBT and DBT. Inform yourself and GET HELP!!!

[annoncangirl]

Thank you so much for posting this....there are so many people that suffer (me included) with real Psychiatric conditions that never venture to seek help because they have been told by uneducated and uninformed individuals that there is nothing wrong with them. The stigma created by said individuals does even more to harm those suffering. Mental Illness is real...and there are more treatments available to patients today than drug therepy, wsuch as CBT and DBT. Inform yourself and GET HELP!!!

[Manuhashidate]

Dr. Wiseman's tone is a failed attempt at persuasion... and really, would anyone entrust their therapeutic needs to this sad weirdo?

When I hear Szasz, I am full of admiration for how he can be so lucid, intelligent and charming in his 90th year, and all that speaking an adopted tongue! There a reassuring vibration there and it goes perfectly with his humanitarian standpoint!

Steve Wiseman on the other hand is just creepy - his tune empties my dancefloor!

[scarred10]

@Manuhashidate the guy isnt a good speaker,szasz is ,that doesnt mean the content has any more merit.This isnt a popularity contest,its a scientific debate where only content matters.

[Manuhashidate]

@scarred10 ... "its a scientific debate where only content matters." - actually it's a You Tube video posted from Wiseman's office with a copy of the 1987 DSM-III-R on a bookshelf in the background.

They way I described Szacz - "lucid, intelligent and charming in his 90th year, and all that speaking an adopted tongue! There is a reassuring vibration there, and it goes perfectly with his humanitarian standpoint" - is called an 'opinion'!

At least I watched the whole thing!

[scarred10]

@Manuhashidate i mean the argument between psych and antipsych is a debate where only content matters.After watching all wisemans vids ,Id agree he is a useless communicator.

[tridentmovies]

Thomas Szasz is not a scientologist. Their views on psychiatry are the same.

But this does not mean Szasz shares the other beliefs of scientologists. To claim so is the same as claiming that anyone who agrees with Hitler that the Earth is round, must himself also be a Nazi. It's a non sequitur, and an obvious and pathetic one at that.

[ShadowPa1adin]

@tridentmovies

Szasz co-founded the CCHR ***with*** the Church of Scientology. Forgive me for perceiving Szasz's pleas of concern for vulnerable people being exploited by greedy, power-hungry quacks with no concern for human-rights as a crock of shit while he continues to pal around with (and receive speaking-money from) an organization that does just that.

[ShadowPa1adin]

So basically Szasz did what some fundamentalist creationists do when they take biology courses: fake their way through it, get the sheepskin, then write crap about "evolution= people coming from rocks" under their new title.

[wangchung311]

@ShadowPa1adin You must know of some other Thomas Szasz...

[whiff1962]

"but also irresponsible and hazardous." Calling the profession out for its abridgements of civil rights, and coercions, all in the name of "treatment" of the "patient". What is irresponsible about urging society, and its agent, the psychiatrist, to pluck the mote from its own eye, especially when so many of the excuses of psychiatry are about "reintegrating" the liberty of individuals, by restoring the sanity of the patient? Alter the individual and you alter the social, but at what cost?

[whiff1962]

I don't blame Wiseman and his ilk for fearing a man who is now 90 years of age. Thomas Szasz is the real humanitarian, and doesn't mince words, nor does he say one thing and do another, as does the mainstay of psychiatry. The fact that psychiatry calls coercion its cure, and oppressions on "patients" lberty, anyone who values civil rights ought to take notice! I applaud Szasz for his moral, medical, and political constancy and consistency.

[whiff1962]

Dr. Szasz left Hungary, with his father and brother, to avoid the Nazis. The assertion, at the beginning of the video, that he (Szasz) left Hungary to "avoid the war", seems rather underhanded a statement.

[nicmart]

@whiff1962

True, Szasz and his family, Jews by ethnicity (if not religion), correctly anticipated the holocaust and had the foresight and resources to leave. Dr. Wiseman shades many facts and explicitly distorts others.

[Psychstudio]

Thank you for posting...people (such as a certain Mr. Tom Cruise) should see this - instead of blindly believing in a sensationalist propaganda machine...We know that psychiatry has a checkered past but to discredit the entire field and try to imagine that these symptoms and illnesses are not real is not only mindless but also irresponsible and hazardous.

[WorBlux]

@Psychstudio

Nonsense, there is no proof that these things are illnesses in the literal sense and definition.

There is no doubt pain, compulsion, and fear which plague to human mind, some minds more than others. Those who have abnormal amounts however are not ill, and a still rational creatures and should be dealt with as such.

What is irresponsible is to wantonly prescribe drugs like prozac whose benefits are minimal to none, with detrimental side effects whose extent is not fully known.

[draziom902]

This guy is a freak and a fraud. Don't believe a word he says.

[mychar111]

Looking at how little evidence there is to back up psychiatric practice, it's kinda difficult to discredit Szasz's argument. Perhaps the day will one day come where "expertise" will be derived via the scietific method. Good luck protecting your profession :)

[gerryarmstrong]

Thanks, sKepptiksowat for making these important vids.

Here's an OCMB thread with transcript excerpts and comments about Dr. Wiseman's excellent talk at

ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.p­hp?p=379896#379896

[xknowledgeisfreex]

Thanks for the upload.