BBC: An Unholy Row - New Kadampa Tradition & Dorje Shugden - Documentary 1998 - Part 1

[Incursus1]

@lamrimeater - I agree with you about following the wisdom given in the Kalama Sutra. One should not take what either HHDL or GKG as truth without considering for yourself what right and good. In this we entirely agree. Where we disagree is what, after due consideration, we feel to be good. We each have our own practises, I do not say that you are wrong to follow HHDL if that is what you feel is right for you. DS is right for me. I respect your right to choose, and only ask for the same right.

[lamrimeater]

Like Buddha said himself. Beleive nothing unless it goes to your common logic. not matter who said it, where it was written, law, or what considered doctorine. If it doesnt agree with your logic, you must abandon it. I was attracted to Buddhism through Geshe La... but since my experience, i have changed path to the true, middle way of Buddhism. NKT doesnt mesh with my common Logic.. therefore it has been abandoned... WE should never worship a deity or anything, its spiritual materialism.

[marcelo8115bis]

@lamrimeater me parece que no has entendido las enseñanzas de Buda a traves de la vision kadam Nunca se adora a dioses Fuiste cristiano?, porque parece que confundes

[sysdroid]

The 14th Dalai Lama is a politician. End of history.

[lamrimeater]

@sysdroid So is Geshe La. its all about perspective

[Varavaken]

@sysdroid

DS followers want to undermine the Dalai Lama.

DS actvists work for the CCP.

You can´t get more political than that.



[mingo09able]

These folks are held up as being more progressive and enlightened to us spiritually deprived people in the West - are you kidding me? To see young people in this day and age singing songs to some "spirit" is heartbreaking.

I am attracted to Buddhism and the Kadampa school has a nun who leads a meditation where I am, but after reading a book or two by the leader I quit going.

[smoothgoomer]

Batchelor didn't really summarize the issue at all. He said nothing of the antagonistic sectarianism of some practitioners in the other schools, Nyingma particularly, against the practice of Shugden. Also, by suggesting that practitioners of Shugden have a more traditional view than those of other schools etc., is downright silly. All schools of Buddhism have their conservatives and liberals, and those who practice Shugden are no different.

[Varavaken]

@smoothgoomer

All schools of Tibetan Buddhism are now non-sectarian ( thanks to the Dalai Lama) - with one exeption - the DS group.

The Gelug sectarians (DS) are opposed to non-sectarianism. They became quite influential after the death of the 13th Dalai Lama, the regents were DS practitioners. The Dalai Lama´s early tutors were DS practitioners. He was surrounded by DS people when he grew up in the Potala Palace...

Now they are seperated from the Gelug tradition.

That is good.

[marcelo8115bis]

@Varavaken que es bueno? que los budistas esten separados? Pareces cristiano Piensa por ti mismo

[Varavaken]

@marcelo8115bis

It was a good decision.

Learn more and you may understand.

[Bobotheluna]

@smoothgoomer

Its not secterianism to speak against Dorje Shugden (Dholgyal). 90% of all Tibetan Buddhists and masters agree that Dholgyal is a demonic force and it is their duty to speak out against it as it is against the intention of the Buddha in the core. Dholgyal worship is not buddhist, but a dangerous degeneration and against the very idea behind buddhist refuge. Dholgyal is a narrow minded and misleaded egoic energy that manifests in a karmically very severe sectarian view and action

[marcelo8115bis]

@Bobotheluna de donde sacas tus estadisticas? 90 % de budistas tibetanos y maestros? Dorje Shugden fue benefactor por 400 años y magicamente, de un dia para otro es demoniaco? Buda nos enseño a pensar por si mismo y no a seguir la moda de dirigentes. Eres hueco Debes pensar mas por ti mismo

[BillKiernan]

@Bobotheluna "90% of all Tibetan Buddhists and masters agree that" they're all equally retarded because they're all talking about magical invisible mythical things they have no actual experience of, but pretend to.

[Bobotheluna]

@BillKiernan

Actually there are a lot of realized masters like the 16th Karmapa, Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Sakya Trizin and many others, who have direct experience of those mystical things and know to distinguish between what is an enlightened energy and what is just a misguided harmful egoic force. It is a typical NKT view, that the only credible master to rely on is Kelsang Gyatso.

[BillKiernan]

@Bobotheluna How do you know if someone else has "direct experience" of something you have no experience of, and not even two schools can agree on what it even is? the whole thing is smoke and mirrors. "Dudjom Rinpoche was realized?" "really, why do you say that?" "well, because other lamas say so." the whole thing is an ancient family business. the majority of tibetan lamas are related to each other, it's an ancient family busines, a racket. was in it for most of my adult life.

[Bobotheluna]

@BillKiernan

Read their biographies. I have no problem, that you do not accept realized masters as realized and instead insist on a fraud to be superior. Reminds me of the issue of Buddha and Devadatta. Devadatta splitted the Sangha and claimed to be superior to Buddha. He too told that the Buddha is a fraud and his Sangha misleaded and he himself is the competent guide. See any parallels ?

[Bobotheluna]

@Bobotheluna Actually the Devadatta example is spot on. Devadatta "specialized" on newcomers to Buddhism. There was a following of five hundred people who wanted to enter the order of the Buddha. Unaware the Devadatta was already banished from the sangha by the buddha himself, they took ordination by him and took him as their guru. Later they became rescued by Ananda and Shariputra who clarified what is going on. GK is same. He specializes on Newcomers and seperates them from the real masters.

[Bobotheluna]

@Bobotheluna

Actually I stop it here and deleted your last post. I do not want to get this another battlefield where Geshe Kelsang devotees could air their propaganda. If you want a privat discussion, leave me your email, and I will take time for you.

[Varavaken]

Interesting videos!

Thank you.

[ABCDIR]

It's really a good documentary, still up to date. Especially Batchelor summarises the things well.

[HerbertLudwig]

Shugden ist keine "Jungfrau Maria"! Shugden is no "Virgin Marie"!



[artinmey]

@HerbertLudwig

Exactly. His reasoning is that Shugden is a malevolent entity.

If they want to continue to worship this spirit they can respect Tibet's religious leader and worship somewhere else