Enhanced Security Camera Video of Civic Center Platform 1 July 3, 2011

[MrMadamedemontespan]

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[JSMITH8505]

What is with the female pointing to the cop with her leg as she walked by? (at 45 seconds). Was she a lookout and was warning the knife guy about the officer coming off the train? Something was defininately in the works before the train stopped. Odd, that everyone speeds up when the commotion starts, and she keeps walking at the same pace like there's nothing going on. I think she knew the knifeman.

[TheBayBelleSF]

I'd feel safer with a knife wielding drunk than a gun wielding bart officer. No joke.

[laseriacsl]

I find more interesting the blue lights that pass over a men while waiting for the bart, could it be that was the reaper coming to pick up a soul??

[icex2010]

I don't get it. The cop looks away from the guy to see if anything is comming and puts on gloves then all of a sudden draws his weapon? Don't get me wrong I'm all for criminals getting what they deserve, but looks to me the cop over reacted.

[Peacetoyouandyours]

Why is the murderer allowed to hide his face? BART is gong to get it's comeuppance. When I hear about some cop getting killed, I think of all the people the cops have tortured and murdered. When the Police start showing respect for the Citizens they can't expect it back. For now, they are just thugs with badges. Wonder where tomorrows beating, torture and murder at the hands of Police will be?

[eimajin7]

@Peacetoyouandyours Lol that citizen lost his respect when he decided to pull his knife out... Police have allways showed respect to me, because i respect them... You pull an attitude or start acting fucking dumb... Then shit doesn't go to well for you

[Peacetoyouandyours]

@eimajin7 Oh sure, "pull an attitude or act dumb" should be cause to torture and execute on the spot. You are an abhorrent human being.

[flinx]

@Peacetoyouandyours Why did the dead man throw a knife at the police?

[Peacetoyouandyours]

@flinx He threw the weapon away as is clearly seen in the vid. Thank you for confirming that you didn't even watch the vid before talking out of your ass.

[flinx]

@Peacetoyouandyours Of course I watched it. The man is alleged to have been winding up to throw a second knife when he was shot. The point is the man shouldn't have thrown a knife at anyone. Why did he? If he hadn't he wouldn't have been shot. Or is that too complicated to understand?

[Peacetoyouandyours]

@flinx 2nd knife??? LOL. That's a good one. Now let me tell you about the one Eula Mae Love.....

[flinx]

@Peacetoyouandyours You know what's also a good one? Throwing a knife at the police. You should do that and see what happens. Or wait for the police report to see if witnesses say there was a second knife or not.

[SFBayGman]

@Peacetoyouandyours Another late reply but if he threw the weapon away then why did it come from behind the officer as if it had bounced from the train? Sorry to tell you but the officer was recently found by the SF DA to have used necessary force. It's not looking good for the transient's family (where were they before?) that are filing a wrongful death lawsuit.

[AnonymousElder]

The blue circle highlights a knife that was recovered as evidence.

BS! he threw his weapon away then got shot.

[TheInternetizen]

How far away was the suspect? Is this just a case of a cop shooting a man for throwing his weapon away? Last I checked, self defense requires a threat to ones life, not an insult against an officer.

[SFBayGman]

@TheInternetizen A bit of a late reply but to answer your question, no. It was the case of a drunk and drugged up transient pulling his knife and throwing it at the cop. If he was just throwing it away why would it come from behind him like it bounced off the train? Let me guess, the tape was doctored and it's a big conspiracy?

[No1Complainer]

That, and I like how all but one person in the background is just walking casually while a cop shoots a man that is throwing a knife.

[No1Complainer]

Believe me, I'm a horrible shot with a pistol or rifle (I've only shot a 9mm and an AR15). But I'm fully confident I can get a man down, without killing, with a gun from 20-30 feet away. Thats me, no formal training and not being a good shot. I'm guessing the cop is trained well and shot at a range mulitple times, and can easily shoot to incapacitate. Unless he was mostly trained in the military, where it's shoot to kill, not to incapacitate.

[eimajin7]

@No1Complainer cops are trained to immobilize a threat... shooting them in the chest... usually puts them down, sometimes for good sometimes not

[No1Complainer]

Yes, I know that's how they're trained. I'm blaming their training. Why aren't they trained to go for better methods. Pepper spray can immobilize a threat from 20 feet away. Why wasn't he trained to go for pepper spray first. Especially against an already inebriated man, who couldn't even come close with throwing his only weapon. They were informed of a drunk at that station, he knew he probably have to use a tazer or pepper spray, he came of the train without his hands being on either.

[flinx]

@No1Complainer coming out of the train with his hands on the tazer or spray escalates the situation. If an officer approaches with hands open and loose it's less threatening than with hands already on an object.

[No1Complainer]

@flinx You mean escalate like the man throwing the knife then being shot? It was already escalated. At the very least, kept his hand off anything, then go to pepper spray as soon as the drunk pulled the knife. Cops aren't trained to subdue, they're trained to shoot people in the chest and make sure they go down. The situation went where it shouldn't have because of this horrible training system they have. The man shouldn't have been shot so he could go to trial, then 15 years in prison.

[DoctorWeeTodd]

@No1Complainer And because of the horrible criminal justice system, he would've spent more than 15 years in prison with other gang members, killers, rapists, but eventually be released due to prison overcrowding. He'll be hooked on more drugs, have no prospect of a job and go back to being homeless and throwing things at cops and little girls pushing strollers.

[DoctorWeeTodd]

@No1Complainer I've use pepper spray. When I was 14, some idiot friends decided to spray each other with them, and accidently got it all over my clothes. It DOES NOT IMMOBILIZE! It just hurt like a motherfucker and I beat the shit out of those assholes.

Tasers do immobilize on the other hand, but most are a one shot deal.

[No1Complainer]

@DoctorWeeTodd That is true, it does not immobilize. It does hurt, and can easily blind a person if shot in the face. Did you get full force or watered down? I know for training in the military and most law enforcement, they have to be sprayed in the face, but I think it's not full dosage. Could be wrong. Maybe the BART enforcement guys should be armed with gas masks and tear gas.

[WarfighterCapable]

@No1Complainer Oh no its full dosage.... Same thing with CS Grenades "teargas".

[No1Complainer]

@WarfighterCapable I know for a fact that the military waters down actual teargas, since I did it in basic myself (got yelled at as well for spitting up spaghetti sauce, they were angry because they thought I was coughing up blood).

[WarfighterCapable]

@No1Complainer I'm telling you as a former CBRN NCO, The person who preps the chamber and teaches those courses... The capsule used isn't diluted its just not that big, A CS grenade which I have also used and in order to be allowed to use a CS grenade you need to be hit by one, Back a few years ago I used to prep gas chambers WITH a CS grenade.

[No1Complainer]

@WarfighterCapable Oky, so I guess I was given wrong information by my RDC's. Course, back to my first point, DoctorWee was hit when he was 14 by friends, and I was asking him if he SPECIFICALLY was hit by full dosage. This is because my point of this whole thing is, why didn't the BART officer use pepper spray instead of a gun, or at least attempt pepper spray first.

[DoctorWeeTodd]

@DoctorWeeTodd Luckily I only got it watered down, but my idiot friends took turns passing it to one another and spraying it full force (Jackass was a very popular show then) and it didn't seem to slow them down much.

[No1Complainer]

Yes, Hill is a criminal and should not be seen as a hero. Based on this video, he couldn't throw a knife. Either he was too far away from the officer, or he was drunk. Look where the knife goes, several feet to the officer's right, and low. Probably 5 feet away from the torso of the cop. The cop, who's trained to shoot a pistol quite accurately at 30 yards, shot the man dead, by bullets in the torso. Why not shoot a leg or arm? Pepper spray or tazer. Nope, bullets to the man's chest.

[code3cowboy]

@creat3d Because a knife is a lethal edged weapon, there is no reason to confront someone posing an imminent life threat with a less lethal force option. Potentially lethal force is matched with lethal force.

[creat3d]

@code3cowboy A taser would've disabled him and the knife would've dropped to the ground (along with him). A capable officer could've handled it without shooting the guy. No reason to defend the pig.

[elizabethfrantes]

Oh, and I thought that Oscar Grant had it coming . .. at most the cop in that incident did a bonehead move and mistook his gun for a tazer. grant and his pals were a menace to all, and this old drunk was not. Funny how when a white dude gets shot, no one cares . ..let some nonwhite career thug get some karma and we've got Riots is Oaktown . ...

[prokrastinatorSF]

@elizabethfrantes Grant was HANDCUFFED, lying FACE DOWN on the platform, NOT MOVING. How on Earth was he a threat to anyone? He was lying face down on the floor with his hands cuffed behind his back! "This old drunk," on the other hand, threw a knife.at a police officer. I think you have it backwards. Grant was not a menace to anyone, in fact he was fully incapacitated, not a threat to anyone, and fully complying with officers. There was no reason to even taser him, let alone shoot him.

[creat3d]

@prokrastinatorSF Exactly.

[code3cowboy]

@prokrastinatorSF Grant was a two striker known to have violent outbursts and carry firearms illegally. His hands were not restrained but were under his body in a spot many males in the East Bay keep their hands either to give the illusion of carrying a pistol or to keep their oversized pants up.

[elizabethfrantes]

Just to let you know, BART cops are not considered to be the cream of the crop . ... I think they should completely disband the dep and hire some of the real, trained cops who got laid off from Oakland and San Jose.

[jsooterlexsc]

@elizabethfrantes That may be true, but in this instance, the officer did it right (unlike Mehserle). As a police defensive tactics instructor, I know you never respond to a lower level of force than you are confronted with. TASER would only be appropriate if he already had lethal cover (someone else covering him with a gun). I've had to deploy my TASER 4 times. Twice it failed to incapacitate the subject. With a 50% failure rate, why would I use it to defend my life when I have a gun?

[SFBayGman]

@jsooterlexsc Looks like your comment was spot on and the DA believed the same thing.

[elizabethfrantes]

Uh, since none of the bystanders were reacting at all to the "perp" it's clear that this is a case of officer-induced killings. Sorry, but any young dude, or dudette, with a badge, and a gun, and a partner, and what looks to be "performance enhanced muscles" should be able to subdue an old drunk using at most a nightstick. It *is* a dangerous job, and it's odd there is NO video of what happened before the shooting. But it's clear that the "perp" was THROWING AWAY THE KNIFE.

[mmtaraval]

@elizabethfrantes

So, according to your logic, since no one was reacting to that crazy guy chasing me with a brick before he hit me with his elbow and went nuts means that he was no harm to anyone, except when I came along. And if you call that just throwing away his knife I think you had the clip on slow motion. A drop the knife on the floor would have been more appropriate.

[tybabs0926]

I really can't believe some of these responses. The sheep always complain about the sheep dog...until the wolf shows up. If you had a crazy homeless guy throwing knives at you, would you be screaming at the cop to reach for his tazer? No. You meet lethal force WITH lethal force.

[YourFaceGDI]

whats tha flying thing?

[khmersols]

The officer did the right thing. That person with a knife could have attacked an unarmed person.

[TheGarnerjustin73]

pigletts

[CTMotorcop]

@TheGarnerjustin73 What a very immature reply.

[TheGarnerjustin73]

@CTMotorcop yea but the good thing about being american, i'm entitled to my opinion, and its protected by the constitution.

[CTMotorcop]

@TheGarnerjustin73 Yes you are so right, and thus I too have that same right,. Enjoy it while we can, for I fear that under this government things will change

[TheGarnerjustin73]

@CTMotorcop unfortunately i'm going to have to agree with you there.

[Hbryant188]

I can tell you that if a suspect is advancing towards me with a knife or other deadly weapon for that matter I am NOT going to put my life on the line in the hopes my TASER will end the threat.

[hanky2112]

You are sadly mistaken to think that police carry arms to protect you or I , Police carry guns to protect them self's in the line of duty , the duty of enforcing the law. 

[Hbryant188]

@hanky2112 YOU are the one who's mistaken. Police officers use their weapons to protect others as well as themselves. Haven't you heard the story of the police helicopter that landed in a field adjacent to someone's house in Florida and one of the deputy/pilots got out and killed a guy who was beating a todler to death? Friendly fire happens often at police departments when they mistake an off duty officer as an agressor when he tries to assist in the apprehension of a suspect.

[hanky2112]

@Hbryant188 Not sure exactly the point your trying to make but thanks for sharing the story.



[Hbryant188]

@hanky2112 You say the only reason why cops have guns is to only protect themselves and noone else and I proved you to be mistaken. I don't see how you could have missed my point.

[elizabethfrantes]

Hmmmm. The cop pulled out his weapon and pointed BEFORE THE KNIFE WAS THROWN . . .so it is likely that the vic was just trying to show he wasn't armed . .. and he couldn't throw well, any decent knife fighter would say you never throw away a weapon. So the cop WAS IN NO DANGER. And back in the day . ..anyone who couldn't handle a drunken middle aged man without shooting was considered a pussy at best. Of course he had knives, if one is homeless, having a weapon is necessary. Unnecessary.

[dumaznbum]

@elizabethfrantes Your only seeing the situation from the point of view of the camera. The "vic" as you say, most likely drew out his knife and threatened the officer (off camera) prompting him to draw his firearm, and firing when the knife was thrown (on camera).

[heytherejoey1]

@zh3nghaoxiang It is quite possible to kill by shooting someone in the legs. Hit a main artery in the thigh and that person has only minutes (sometimes even less because their heart is racing from adrenalin and pushing the blood out even faster) until they bleed out. And if you miss the leg there is the real chance of a ricochet hitting a bystander. After all, Guns are lethal weapons... Although I do see your logic.

[mllave240]

@zh3nghaoxiang What I don't understand is why baseball players don't hit perfect home runs every time they are at bat. Hitting a home run is guaranteed to put points on the board, and they dont risk getting struck out. It is just a question of logic, why aim to not hit it out of the park? Its so easy right?

[Silveracity]

@zh3nghaoxiang

Try doing some real shooting yourself, and experience the reality of the situation. Perhaps a Navy SEAL can target any part of the human body with deadly accuracy, but normal humans have to shoot for center of mass.

[P1089]

@masculine31- racist for doing their job? Shooting an armed/dangerous person. Clearly justified shooting.

[BigPrimo33]

@zh3nghaoxiang Because you are not trained to shoot the legs, shooting the legs will not stop someone who has a weapon. What if he had another knife on him when the move in. He should have not pulled a weapon and thrown it at the officer.

[OhNoPaypal]

@zh3nghaoxiang

You think shooting is easy ah? Just shoot the legs, yeah right...

[mpcrosson]

This is a perfect example of why training is so important:

1. The BART police are trained in the use of both tasers and guns to defend the public

2. The dumbass that got shot obviously never got basic street training: don't bring a knife to a gunfight. End of story.

[masculine31]

Ridiculous at best! So sad that racist peons are hired so they can feel like a man, by killing people. If u were homeless, i'm sure u would be no better off than he was....

[200Sac]

@masculine31 Racist? You assume just because the officer is white that he must be racist? That just sounds ignorant and racist. That means you are what you are accusing this officer of being, which also makes you a hypocrite... and racist.  Your comment was truly ridiculous.

[masculine31]

@200Sac Sorry that u reside in Sac where racism exist every day! It's reality, deal with it. U come across like someone who lives in a small world of autism, u have one way thinking, and ur always wrong. Police are trained to kill 1st, ask questions later, because they're COWARDS! When u depart this world, u have to answer to GOD for what done to people. My advice is change ur LOW DOWN WAYS, it only catches up with u in the end.

[IKSNIOTS]

Check out the black in the back walking like its nothing while everyone is running. 

[boaster]

I agree. Good job. On the train today a homeless guy sat down and started stroking a random woman's hair! He got belligerent when several male passengers including myself told him to stop. People want to commute in peace. If you think the BART PD are dangerous or out to get you, then DON'T RIDE BART. There are plenty of other alternatives.

[modeleccentric]

It's all about escalation of force. The Tazer is a non-lethal (most times) device, designed to incapacitate and ensure compliance, a knife is a lethal weapon and must be met with equivalent force. Trust me, the officer knows where the taser is on his belt.

[Brandan09997]

@modeleccentric Actually here its strapped to your left leg xD

[modeleccentric]

@Brandan09997 Thanks. In my neck of the woods, it's weak hand cross draw.

[rocdad]

@modeleccentric Trust You? So your saying that is was murder when the officer shot the handcuffed suspect? because he claimed he thought his Taser was his gun... can't have it both ways

[modeleccentric]

@rocdad Not talking about the Grant case. Keep your comments limited to the subject at hand please.

[PyROphantasie]

@modeleccentric Police ARE not and SHOULD not be JUDGE, JURY, and EXECUTIONER all in one instant.

If they need to arrest him for some reason then all for it, but there was no need to MURDER the man, that's called the DEATH PENALTY and that's for the COURTS to decide.

Since when does wielding a Knife, even threatening an officer with it, deserve the DEATH PENALTY?!

[modeleccentric]

@PyROphantasie (sigh) Really? You can get just as dead with a knife wound as with a gunshot wound. I'm not making a political comment . I'm just going back to the escalation of force training I received in the Sheriff's Academy and going from there. I ask of you all: read no politics into my comment. Nether of you have no Idea who I am, or what my leanings are. If you're trying to bait me, this is as far as it gets. Thanks for your attention.

[PyROphantasie]

@modeleccentric The Nazi Germany training probably taught the SS to find and take any Jews to the concentration camps but that didn't make it right.

As an INDIVIDUAL you should be able to decide what's right and wrong.

As a Citizen if I shot and killed a man because he had a Knife I'd be serving a HELL of a lot more time than these Police are getting.

I'm not trying to "Bait" you, just trying to have a Moral Conversation with someone who thinks it's EVER OK to KILL someone.

-Thank You.

[modeleccentric]

@PyROphantasie I do think it's okay to kill someone, in defense of Personal life, loved ones, small children, woodland animals, (except when it's dinnertime) and when you're on a crowded subway platform filled with potential hostages, stabbeees and other potential victims. You've no clue who I am, what I feel and what makes me sad or happy. All I see of you is "Believing What You Think." Throw Nazi @ Me, I raise you Pol Pot. Oh, and let's get Ad Hominem.. You Are a Scoundrel and Fool.

[PyROphantasie]

@modeleccentric I was not calling you a Nazi, i was pointing out that to follow orders/training blindly is insanity.

The world is not black and white, there are many shades of grey.

Brittan's police force didn't even used to carry guns. They seemed to be doing fine.

Now they do, someone innocent got shot, and violent riots ensued.

What do you expect?

Especially when 9 time out of ten when a police officer murders an innocent (which seems to happen often) they get off with barely any charges.

[PSPDWB]

Thank you, Officers, for risking your life daily to protect us from these dangerous crazies.

[thenoorys]

@PSPDWB trade liberty for state enforced security. Classically moronic

[shiggashane1]

Good shooting. At least no innocent civilians were hurt by this knife wielding madman. I support any and all officers who take down armed suspects

[Antagonist77]

Trained to reach for his gun first, not for his taser. The problem is in the training.

A case needs to be made as to why BART officers need lethal force to police a transit system.

[alboydo]

@Antagonist77 Have you ever been on BART, or outside your front door for that matter? So if someone is brandishing lethal weapon, does that mean that for some reason they will randomly choose to NOT get on BART or go to a BART station? Obviously not. Lethal force against a knife wielding suspect at close range is absolutely the correct response. I wish I had the time to type another thousand words on how incredibly ignorant your post was.

[police111b]

@Antagonist77 The problem is, you have no training or a brain. the unwritten rule for weapons and distance use to be 21 feet, but now it is up to 28 feet. That's the distance someone can cover before an officer can pull out his gun or other tools to take appropriate action. The average taser cables are 21 feet.

As for the case why bart needs to be armed, you just saw the video didn't you?

[hazeywolf]

@police111b There is wide misconception about the Tueller 21/28 foot rule; once an officer has drawn a firearm, a suspect cannot be considered an actual threat justifying deadly force until he takes the first overt action in furtherance of harmful intent.

Support Constitutional Open Carry and Legal Concealed Carry on BART!

[200Sac]

@Antagonist77 He should have reach for his gun first. If he attempted to use the taser and he missed or it failed, the armed suspect could have that knife in the officer's chest before the officer could even think of transitioning to his gun. I've had the taser fail to fire when I've had to use it. I've also shot people with the taser who seemed to not even be slowed down by it and continued attacking me and my partners. The taser is an awesome tool but is not a substitute for a gun.

[code3cowboy]

@Antagonist77 Where did you go through POST? I am really missing out by not at least getting my in service hours through your trainers.

BART officers are Peace Officers just like the city cops. They deal with warrant arrests, violent individuals, mentally ill individuals, intoxicated individuals, and have to be prepared to respond to any incident within or adjacent to BART property as well as assisting outside agencies. Ergo, they need to carry firearms.

[Meezealini]

Good job to police who are bombarded with crazy people every day. One less bum on the streets