Torture

[wiskawind]

The torture of any living thing is appalling to me and I feel it is an inhuman act; it is also a War Crime under international law

Bush and Company committed War Crimes against the American people and against humanity; they also committed treason by torturing in OUR countrys name, without OUR permission.

As far as I am concerned, Bush and all his henchmen should be brought to answer for these crimes, or we are little more than a Nation of Hypocrites!

[new01]

Morality is allot more complex than you make it seem. It's not about what what you you do but why you did it and your ultimate intentions. On that note: I had myself waterboarded and it didn't make me feel like I was drowning, I just got some water up my nose towards the end. Bugs + small places = Fear Factor(minus the possible prize) = Not torture.

[MatthiasFarland]

True, I am being reductionist and oversimple. However, enclosing someone in a small space with something of which they have a phobia is psychological torture. Please search YouTube for videos on waterboarding, there's one involving Christopher Hitchens and another put out by Amnesty International.

[new01]

I never said I didn't think they should have done it, anything that cuases severe panic in interrogations is bound to lead to false information. I had seen the Chris Hitchens video and that is what made me want to try waterboarding to see if it was really like that. I'm all for more peacful aproaches to situations, being a pacifist I rarely even raise my voice at anyone who has upset me. Life is to short to cuase problems for other people even if they inconvinience you.

[sobebella]

fair enough, cant say i blame you, i can barely support it myself, its a horribal thing, but then again some of these people are horribal people, and if its in the name of saving inoccent lives, im ok with it, but if there are better methods, then use them first of corse.

[Sean2046]

oh and about water boarding. it most certainly is torture from what i've read about it. christopher hitchens said it wasn't torture, he volunteered to have water boarding done on him and he changed his mind.

[MatthiasFarland]

And Christopher Hitchens is a man we can trust!

"Christopher Hitchens, he can't be president, but he should be."

Paid for by the Christopher Hitchens for President foundation. We know we're unrealistic; we just have to hope.

[Sean2046]

but yeah it's not unusual at all for the people in power to break their own rules. they can kill, we can't. they can steal, we can't. they can torture, we can't. they can print money, we can't. the list goes on. oh the hypocrisy! you're right, the people in power SHOULD be following the same rules they try to impose on us peons. but that would be impossible, for the state would collapse if they did not steal from us.

[Sean2046]

i agree on the torture = wrong part. Sam Harris's 'The End of Faith' has an interesting dilemma about torture though and from what i remember i think Harris was for it in special situations. something about a theoretical situation about a terrorist that knew where a bomb was that was going to kill thousands. that kind of made me question my stance on being 100% against torture.

[MatthiasFarland]

I still can't agree with it as it has never been shown to gain reliable information. Even if the terrorist knew where a bomb was that was going to kill millions, he is less likely to reveal the information under torture than under other, more reputable forms of interrogation.

[lisauben]

On the other hand, didn't the USA learn about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq from information gathered through torture?

Oh.... wait... there weren't any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Still, what was the harm? (Dear Lord, PLEASE let them sense the sad sarcasm that that statement is dripping with).

[sobebella]

if we have exaused all other meathods, and we are absolutly sure they know something, then yes, i would say torture is an option.

[MatthiasFarland]

Despite the fact that torture has never been shown to yeild reliable information and in fact has been overwealmingly shown to NOT yeild reliable information?

[sobebella]

yes, because every one will react diffrently to torture, and we have to do what we have to do to protect inoccent lives, weather it means torturing or what ever.

[MatthiasFarland]

I can not agree with that.

[sobebella]

might not have worked yet, but keep our options open right? and again, only in extreem casis, where we absolutly know somethings up, and we need the details, and weve tryed it all. just keep the options open, might not work, but if theres a chance, take it, it might save some people. might not of wrked now, but doesnt mean it never will.

[MatthiasFarland]

So it's okay to torture people just in case it'll yeild some information that might save lives?

[sobebella]

well, its a last resort. we havnt got anything from them, so as a very last resort, try it, and maby itll get resaults. i agree that its a pretty sickening thing and that we realy shouldnt lower ourself to that level, but for the protection of innocent lives, if we can get info, we should do it by any means neccicary.

[MatthiasFarland]

But again, it didn't work. It didn't get any information. And torture throughout the ages has been shown to do exactly that. There were no 'innocent lives' saved.

[DidntKnowWhatToPut1]

I can only whole heartedly agree

[Yellow2011]

watch?v=8_tf25lx_3o

[pomeroy82]

Torture is what happens when we let religious zealot retards "run" the country! I'm sure they thought they were in the right because they believe god is on their side. When will everyone wake the fuck up and point these fuckers out for the fucked up hypocrites they are! Fuck Christians, Fuck Muslims FUCK ALL OF YOU STUPID RELIGIOUS FUCKS! You will be the end of us all!

[sobebella]

please read my comments bottem to top, hada break it up as it was too long.

[MatthiasFarland]

Unfortunately, torture has not been shown to yeild reliable results. In fact, it has been shown to get more False information than true. Therefore, using it is not only morally reprehensable, but is also counterproductive as the information gained via torture is completely unreliable. That's why we don't use it.

[sobebella]

as for what already happened, i do agree they should be punished. from what iv heard, they had barly any proof they knew anything, so yes, punish them. and on a side note, the levels of torture used should be broken up in catagorys of phisical and mental and the sevarety of it and it should have certain restrictions to the use of certain tortures.

[sobebella]

im not saying lets go torture every terrorest all the times, right when we get 'em, im saying if there is alot of proof that they know something, we should try alternitive meathods, and such, and as a very last resort, then torture is neccicary. only if there is serius proof and no other way has worked.

[sobebella]

you said if we were caught and tortured we'd want equil rights, but if we were terrorests and commited crimes of humanity or attempted to and knew there might be a plan to try again or anyhting like that, then we would deserve it. i mean were not gona wana be tortured when were in the seat, but sometimes its neccicary.

[lisauben]

"There is a real risk of death from actually drowning or suffering a heart attack or damage to the lungs from inhalation of water. Long term effects include panic attacks, depression and PTSD." -- Statement by Allen S. Keller, M.D., Associate Professor of Medicine, New York University School of Medicine, Director, Bellevue/NYU Program for Survivors of Torture, Member, Advisory Council, Physicians for Human Rights.

Just think, this is considered a MILD form of torture.

[tattooskin72]

I'm not sure I agree that water-boarding is a mild form of torture (according to other commenter). I read the stories in the description box and it's just sad.

I highly doubt we are ever going to see anyone prosecuted for this :(

[MatthiasFarland]

If we don't, we should riot.

[tattooskin72]

Shit, all during the Bush Presidency I was hoping for riots.. LOL

[whoarentyou]

Have to agree with you.

Anyone who knew the the orders were illegal or issued the illegal orders, deserve to be punished.

Water-boarding is just a mild form of torture compared to other techniques, but be it physical or mental torture, it still is torture.