Final Cut: The Making and Unmaking of Heaven's Gate (Part 1 of 8)

[TheIntruders]

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[ReyAce00]

Great documentary, thanks for posting this.

[MrKUBRICKIAN]

You gotta give cimino credit for something,curing insomnia.I went in trying to love this film,but it is hands down,the dullest film ive ever seen.It is one of the few times i have completely agreed with the paid critics.This film is horribly cast,horribly written,and totally forgettable.

[mikebelgrave]

Thanks so much for uploading this. Just watched the whole lot in one go. brilliant.

[aplantage]

What first made me realize that UA was gone was when I sat in OCTOPUSSY and the MGM lion roared. At first I thought I was in the wrong film. I don't know what is most idiotic about this - they money they wasted that one doesn't even see on the screen, or thinking that enough Americans would want to see a revisionist western, much less one that falsifies history (so that not even leftist critics could like it).

[AlexDeLarge90]

@aplantage

Sigh. Revisionist history is nothing new in Hollywood. The western genre in particular is all revisionism.Do you think duels existed in the real wild west??

It wasn't the faulty history that made people avoid "Heaven's Gate" like the plague. People in general don't know **** about history anyways.

The reason nobody saw it is because it's insanely long and dull. Tons of pointless scenes that go on forever and add nothing to the plot (which takes forever to get started).

[aplantage]

@AlexDeLarge90 There are different kinds of historical inaccuracy. Duels are a mythical element, cattle barons killing sheep farmers with the approval of the government is revisionism of myths of the West, but the numbers are exaggerated. And I was talking of a educated audience segment who is interested in history.

[aplantage]

@aplantage I agree that the movie is slow-paced, but so are Sergio Leone's westerns. Whether one finds that boring is a matter of taste. The bigger problem here is that too much of the "perfectionism" that the documentary lauds makes hardly any difference on screen. Hence it is just magalomaniac waste rather than technique.

[AlexDeLarge90]

@aplantage

Seriously, WHAT world do you live in which people go to see a movie because it's "historically accurate"?

Out of all nitpickings you can find in a movie you picked one which more often that not is the norm. The idea that two gunmen would see who has the quickest draw is a Hollywood enforced myth about the Wild West. What about all those Biblical movies? Are they also "historically accurate"?

"Heaven's Gate" had pointless long scenes and dull characters.THAT made it flop

[aplantage]

@AlexDeLarge90 You are comparing very different things. To a believer, a Bible film that depicts the Biblical story correctly is historically accurate, including miracles etc. A typical Oliver Stone film like JFK has a critical intention and claims that it is more accurate than the usual versions of history (this is revisionism). GATE doesn't work by any standards.

[illsleepwhenimdead17]

Does anyone know the name of the song that plays at the 8:35 mark? I don't think its on the OST.

[SavageBroadcast]

Wait, didn't Cutthroat Island lose more money than Heaven's Gate, and also destroyed Carolco (the studio behind T2)?

[EverettDudgeon138]

This was the end of Independent Film Making. PERIOD.

[thedrmat]

I saw the movie about 2 months ago on DVD (took me 2 days to finish it, of course), and I've had very mixed thoughts about it. For one, I think it had the potential to be a masterpiece, only that it was terribly mishandled. For other, it was indeed a tad overrated, because the story is fairly simplistic and had no need to extend the way it did. I agree on the fact that it was used as an example of "how not to make certain types of movies anymore".

[EricAKATheBelgianGuy]

@thedrmat Well put. It's not as bad as many people make it out to be, but it is much longer than it should be and the character development is put in the backseat behind the visual aspects. Plus, with Cimino alienating many of the executives, I believe that's where many critics started lambasting him. Many critics were still divided on the virtues of "The Deer Hunter," and this validated their notion that Cimino was a hack.

[thedrmat]

@EricAKATheBelgianGuy

Quite true. He managed to fall just as fast as he rose.

[EricAKATheBelgianGuy]

@thedrmat Also, something I just learned: Cimino actually started as a painter, so I think he took a painter's perspective to a different medium, and obviously, it backfired severely.

[FilmFanClaire]

That scene at 3:00 is one of the most stunning visual images I have seen in film

[jonathanmelia]

Narrated by Willen Defoe, who actually got fired from the set of Heaven's Gate when he was playing a chicken farmer, for talking out of turn during a crowd scene. But here he is, the star, narrating how the film flopped. So he had the last laugh....

[jksonny]

Classic tragedy. Executives trying to satisy their own egos turning to a man whose own ego swallowed them all.

[CenyddRos]

I consider Heaven's Gate a majestic masterpiece. In terms of craft it is unparalleled. Everything is shot "in camera" and the detail is amazingly rich. But if you are a big fan of chicken nugget films then you probably will not like Heaven's Gate. It is a film for people who admire the craft of filmmaking and who love art - not for people who want a simpleminded quick fix or amusing two-hour distraction.

[Urvy1A]

@CenyddRos AKA Film Snobs who like boring movies.

[EricAKATheBelgianGuy]

@Urvy1A Snobbery is in the eye of the beholder.

[JubalCalif]

Fascinating clips! THANKS for posting! The early sixties production of "Cleopatra" almost ruined 20th Century Fox (they only survived by selling off some VERY valuable real estate - much of which became Century City) and "Heaven's Gate" brought United Artists to its knees. I've never seen all of "Heaven's Gate"...the few clips I have seen certainly LOOK amazing. And notable for being the last feature film appearance of screen icon Joseph Cotton.

[jngr1]

@JubalCalif FACT CHECK! Fox was looking to unload Century City several years before Cleopatra was conceived. It just wasn't finalized until after.

[thesanspower]

ATTENTION FOLKS! IF ANYONE REMEMBERS THE SERGIO MYERS VIDEO HE UPLOADED OF HEAVEN'S GATE, THEY'LL REMEMBER THE SONG THAT WAS FEATURED IN THE VIDEO. ANYWAYS, MANY REQUESTED THE SONG AND ARTIST, SO PLEASE GO TO MY CHANNEL AS I'VE UPLOADED IT.

-tony

[EricAKATheBelgianGuy]

To tell you the truth, The Deer Hunter isn't even Cimino's best movie. His best movie is probably Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, and that was his debut. There was nowhere to go but down.

[depechemodevilla]

It's a great film. I love it. 

[jbdream3]

I wonder if this documentary is on DVD?

[moviefreak2011]

@jbdream3 I don't have the DVD but i know it came out in 2000 and was no reissue. This came out in 2005 so most likely not. Sad but true. This be great to put on DVD.

[zenmachinefilms]

Some enterprising editing student needs to get a hold of the 4 hour version of this and cut it into something 2 hours long that flows better and makes more sense.

[zenmachinefilms]

Thanks for posting this. Excellent documentary! 

[Doom2012Today]

the deer hunter is best... but heaven's gate isnt bad at all

[Bynkers83]

This movie changed Hollywood. The fiasco made it very difficult for independent directors to work in Hollywood. The studios wanted to regain control and it meant the end of the New Hollywood era 1965-1980. In my opinion Hollywood had it's best days in the 1970's. "Dances with Wolves" was thought to be a new Heavens Gate.

[CristinaFernandez]

"Heaven's Gate" is another example of a director having total control and producing totally unwatchable, self-indulgent garbage because there was no one to reign in their excesses. "Episode I" is another example.

[BlackHoleSun1921]

@CristinaFernandez Episode 1 would have been okay if somebody else wrote the script; George Lucas can do a lot of things, but screenwriting isn't one of them.

[GTBurns48215]

There was a good 90 minute movie in here somewhere, but it got bogged down. First of all there was no need to show so many events in REAL TIME. Did we really need to see the entire harvard dance number, or the roller skating scene, both should have been edited DOWN. Too many scenes in this film overstayed their welcome.

[theflorgeormix]

The Godfather and Apocalypse are full of Comic relief..Brando was Funny, etc., this movie may not have anything close to that dimension, Brando and Coppola did the same thing as Cimino when given the chance

[stlgtrace]

Watching Heaven's Gate is like trying to eat a sack of flour!!! A terrible, ungodly waste of film, talent and money!!! 

[dropzone52761]

I hate Kris Kistofferson, what a pompous ass.

[IslandRyno]

Thumbs up if you're here because of Professor Leydon.

[industrialsun]

This documentary is quite impressive. It perfectly addresses all lingering intrigue surrounding the massive folly that Cimino inflicted on the world of cinema. It is infinitely more interesting and entertaining than the movie.

[BlackHoleSun1921]

@intermitrj Oh yeah, because this has EVERYTHING to do with Heaven's Gate.

[ajrossjr]

Should be required viewing for every film student. Period.

[kewoods99]

I remember when this documentary first came out on TRIO. It is to this day the best "Making of" doc ever made, in my opinion. I have never seen the movie, but would like to. Just because making it was total hell, that may not mean the film itself is no good. Thanks very much for posting this.

[SNCLHN]

where can i see this epic turd?

[The4thGuy]

@SNCLHN On DVD.

[Verd1m5]

I guess this is where we all say in this internet community:

E P I C F A I L

[lavinder11]

I thought this was about the Heaven's Gate cult. :(

[vewdew3]

@lavinder11 yeah me too...lol

[TheGatorfan93]

@luiselmonster Beautifully photographed?Yes,at times,at other times cimino tries to hard for realism and it becomes distracting and muddy.And about set designs,the costumes,art direction,landscapes used etc,etc..Of course there wonderful,the look is there,thats where all the money went apparently!

[jslbrt]

8:04 Fuck me, is that Cricket from IASIP?

[Methrt3]

what an interesting story but i have never seen this film. is it really that bad?

[luiselmonster]

@Methrt3

no it´s not, is really not bad at all. Is it great? Well it depends. It does have lots and lots of flaws, but the final result is not even close to the worst movie ever made. This film it´s and needs to be rediscovered. One thing I can assure you for sure, it´s probably one of the most beautifully photographed films of all time. The direction of photography, the set design, the costumes, the art direction, locations, scenario, landscapes, action, choreography are flawless!

[brabon1]

@luiselmonster had all the bad press about going over budget not come out before the movie was released, it may have done ok at the box office

but to this day, i find the movie boring and overblown

[ufuckfacesonofabitch]

That guy says "Pictures" way too much!

[HammyofDoom]

The movie looks good...but thats it. I've seen parts of this movie, and its not interesting, and the violence just isnt done right. I dont mind violent movies (in fact i enjoy them), but the violence in this movie was just disturbing. I mean look at how walken's character dies in the film, its so over the top its rediculous

[BlackHoleSun1921]

@HammyofDoom It's how it actually happened. (!)

[jonathanmelia]

I think it's hilarious that Willem Dafoe narrates this documentary. He had a small part in Heaven's Gate as a chicken farmer, and got fired from the shoot for talking out of turn during a crowd scene. And here he is, the star, narrating how the film flopped. So who had the last laugh? Ha ha...

[CristinaFernandez]

@jonathanmelia I did not notice that, but that's a very interesting insight!

[amusement420]

Thanx for posting the entire doc.

[RiotShield]

I'm not gonna defend Michael Bay's honor here, but Michael Cimino really goes way too far in the opposite direction when it comes to filmmaking, and look what happened as a result.

At least Michael Bay is willing to make fun of himself (the commercial he did for Verizon FiOS), Cimino is still the same doughy, pompous man he was 20 years ago.

[halbie71]

Heaven's Gate=MASTERPIECE!!!

[cobolsaurus]

They didnt approach the task properly, they should have looked for a good script first, then think of the director and the cast, etc. They just bought cimino because of the prestige the oscar award gave him... letting alone the mismanagement...

[dannypurple1979]

@cobolsaurus Cimino had the script and the idea 5 years before The Deer Hunter. They turned him down but let him do it after all of the acclaim. He wrote it and it was HIS baby. He was the one calling ALL the shots.

[Fawksian21]

It's not a bad film. It's basically the exact same kind of film as "The Deer Hunter": slow, impressionistic and melodramatic. A bad film would have nothing on its mind but titilation.

[ManfromSudan1]

One of the BEST westerns ever MADE!

[TheGatorfan93]

One of the BEST westerns ever MADE!

...at putting you to sleep

[bsjt]

Thanks for this - the book by Steven Bach is fascinating.

[KIDxMIZER]

lol, Narrated by Willem Dafoe himself... how ironic.

[chriskoob]

put in prespective, they thought they could make heaven's gate for 7mill,  pulp fiction was made for 10 mill back in 1994 and that was considered chump change

[THEFRANKLINFILM]

There's such a thing as inflation, 7 mil in 1978 is not the same as 7 mill in 1994.

[nypad5]

good god I saw a price guide there in the opening montage , 6 bucks...ttickets are 10 bux today :(

[peabody66]

I've seen a little piece of Heaven's Gate last month and it doesn't look that bad. The only problem I have with it is that it's a little slow. But it's visuals are ahead of its time. I also like the costumes.

[Fawksian21]

See the whole thing. It's very impressive, especially on a visual level. Say what you will about Cimino's overspending, but the movie looks like all of it went onscreen.

[TheGatorfan93]

Great visuals?slow?barry lyndon is that as well.But,it's kept continually interesting throughout because of the voice-over,and it's an original rise and fall story.This movie needed a voice over,some serious editing,and a different lead.And even with that,it would only be halfway decent AT BEST!It's just simply an uninteresting story,with no interesting characters.We certainly see no motivation for them..nothing.All you get are mumbled words,and immigrants screaming for 3 hours.And great visuals

[Fawksian21]

Basically, you think it needed the "Apocalypse Now" treatment.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Kristofferson's performance or the story. True, it can be hard to follow because of the pacing, but watch closely and you'll be rewarded, just like in "The Deer Hunter." The film's biggest mistake was that it asked people to pay attention, rather than just be entertained.

[TheGatorfan93]

it asked people to pay attention,rather than just be entertained

Well,you need something compelling,to keep your attention.You can have both you know.And kristofferson has NO screen presence,maybe in a small role as a motorcycle rapist in ''bring me the head of alfredo garcia''.But he cannot be a lead,let alone in an epic!

[geekboyII]

@Fawksian21 : True, the biggest mistake was it asked people to pay attention.

People are not going to pay attention to the movie just because they're asked to, you have to get it from them.

[Ramble1212]

lol what a stupid fuck I mean how hard is it to make a hit?! seriously I bet I could make a movie that would gross 122million smackers for the cost of $200 bucks.

[djmmcee]

Sure you would. Sure.

[Ramble1212]

lol so your a fan of his I gather?

[BlackHoleSun1921]

@Ramble1212 Yes, we all know what you can do, Michael Bay. We're still not impressed.

[KronantheBarbarian]

This feels like the "Heart's of Darkness" but for "Heaven's Gate".

[goback3spaces]

This documentary is excellent. It doesn't swallow the Vincent Canby/Kathleen Carroll line whole, but perceives Cimino's motivations and tries to give his epic enterprise (and its aftermath) a balanced view. I still haven't seen HEAVEN'S GATE, but I intend to keep an open mind. There's no motivation stronger than the "piling on" syndrome that seems to characterize the film critics' response to this movie.

[BlackHoleSun1921]

@goback3spaces I'd highly reccomend it. Even if you don't like the film in the end, it's still worth a watch.

[kaneko269]

Looks like the producers were after the awards and reputation, so they went after the hottetst director at the time, they didn´t have a story or a project they wanted to make, they were just after the director, and the director´s extreme antics didn´t help either, but a flop out of 3 other good projects at the time (they mentioned Raging bull, apocalypse now and Manhattan coming around that same time) is not bad.

[BlackHoleSun1921]

@kaneko269 Actually, Cimino did have a script for Heaven's Gate, but he kept it on the shelf. After The Deer Hunter won big at the Oscars, he brought it back out and filmed it.

[GlitterMike]

I just saw this movie myself, and I liked it. Yes, it has its shortcomings, but I'll take this over another Paris Hilton movie any day.

[kubrickfan21]

Incoherent plot,characters,dialouge,even its cinematography, its a mess.Voice over would have helped like in barry lyndon,which is what makes that film stay interesting.Yes i believe in passion and vision,cimino was lacking on the latter though.Characters are introduced without any motivation,no set up they just come and go and you don't care.

[zamboangaVillain]

@GlitterMike they should have hired ROGER CORMAN...ROGER CORMAN IS THE BEST FILMMAKER IN HOLLYWOOD...

[GlitterMike]

@zamboangaVillain LOL! I'm a big fan of both "Battle Beyond the Stars" and "Rock'n'Roll High School."

[Booharv1]

@GlitterMike rofl if that ain't damning with faint praise, I don't know what is.

[GlitterMike]

@Booharv1 Perhaps so, but I still applaud Cimino's effort to make a great movie, even if it did fail.  Anyone who's willing to throw so much as a dime at another Paris Hilton movie would be a far bigger idiot.

[boinky35]

movies are about bringing someones

vision and passion on to the screen,not

about formulating plots to provide the

biggest profits.Hence the problem with

Hollywood today,I wonder how many

remakes and sequels will be made

in the coming years.

[AtomicCombustion]

Actually you're wrong. Movies are about both. I offer no explanation. Do not reply to this message.

[HiredGunz]

lol dickhead

[xJazvindax]

I still love this movie, despite all the media shit flying around about irresponsibility, egomania etc. etc. I saw this on the big screen when it was first released and it left a lasting impression - not just the epic canvas and stunning visuals but the whole pity of it, the futility of it. Michael Cimino, if you are reading this, I really mean it when I say you did good.....really good.

[Anynom]

If you want a movie that really destroyed a company, see Cutthroat Island, utterly sank Carloco Pictures.

[elbethere]

Honestly, as a movie Heaven's Gate looks fantastic. It's just the plot and character development that lags

[ozzipunx]

Great film. Don't know why it still has a bad rep - count the 1,000s of millions lost on these following shit films: Osmosis Jones, Stealth, The Postman, Cutthroat Island, Pluto Nash and Town and Country!

[unhinged1980s]

One of the best looking films I have ever seen. What filmaker's today have this guy's courage to make something closer to art? Instead today we have Michael Bay type crap and an occaional entertaining flick. Even arthouse films are dumbed down and maybe its only the small screen that occasionally has something interesting to offer.

[robhere1982]

@unhinged1980s I agree, you do get the odd entertaining movie but even then they lack something, it's staggering when you look at the movies of the 70's, 80's & early 90's & realise how many great movies were made, directors had passion & money was the last thing on their mind. Even 'indie' movies now are boring & souless and with the overuse now of lazy CG & 3D I can't see it ever returning to the quality we had in every genre of movie in the decades I mentioned. Grt movie making is a lost art

[mudboymudboy]

@robhere1982 you're a fucking idiot. sure theres money grabbing movies rampant everywhere but to say great moving making is a lost art is a fucking lie.

[robhere1982]

@mudboymudboy That's a good way to but across a point, calling someone a 'fucking idiot'! You've proved with that line you're part of the braindead 'Twilight' & 'Avatar' crowd. You know nothing about movies & you're probably one these media hyped whores that thinks The Fighter is the 'Greatest Boxing Movie Ever'. Go away, I don't converse with foulmouthed SCUM like you. Another thing, if you called me that in the REAL WORLD coward I would break your neck.

[mudboymudboy]

@robhere1982 Why would you make baseless assumptions like that? I'm not some media hyped whore, I'm just not an idiot who romanticizes the 'good-old days' of art. You have a terrible, defeatist attitude towards modern movies. I do agree that there are a lot of money grabbing films, but by saying that the art of great film making is gone, you're completely ignoring the modern output of directors such as Scorsese, Tarantino, Aronofsky, Chris Nolan, Gus Van Sant, Michael Gondry and countless others

[lamentate07]

@mudboymudboy I'm not sure if it's just romanticising. The 70's was a watershed period for American cinema, that is undeniable.

A lot of great films have been made in the last 10 years though, and those directors you mentioned have not responsible for making them either. at least not imo.

[darkkramer666]

@unhinged1980s "best looking" does not mean "best" - one of the most boring pieces of shit I have ever seen.

The real tragedy is that utter hack Cimino found it necessary to murder a horse for his "masterpiece". That his career is utterly ruined proves that there is a God.....

[SdM45]

FYI the narator a.k.a Willem Dafoe's first move was as an extra in Heaven's Gate

[joboots007]

Heard that Steven Bach,who greenlit

Heaven's Gate,lost his bout with cancer

at his Vermont retreat earlier this week.

Perhaps say a prayer for his family,if you

can!!!!!

[halbie71]

I always thought of Heaven's Gate as a masterpiece of film making!

[vincentpricesnephew]

man, Cimino and United Artists really fucked up the studio system by putting the un-creatives (studio executives) in charge. this whole thing was just one big CLUSTER FUCK

[bsjt]

The execs were not at all in charge of Cimino or this film. Cimino led them by the nose.

[mike1964180]

Thanks for posting mate. I have read a version of the story behind HG in the hollywood hall of shame book by the medveds. It was damming about cimino. But I loved thunderbolt and lightfoot and the deer hunter. and desperate hours had mimi rogers in it so that was cool with me too. I think the real villan was cimino going in agreeing to 8 million and having a secret plan to exploit a very week studio. Read "Titanic: the making of James Cameron" by paula parisi, to get an idea of the pressures . .

[AuronTsubaki85]

Call me crazy if you want, but didn't this problem occur with Lawrence Of Arabia, Alexander, Cleopatra & many other longer movies eagering for a true final cut?

[CTM1978]

Read Easy Riders Raging Bulls, Cimino was a megalomaniac and he was responsible for running everything into the ground.

[smichelle65]

Thanks for posting this; I've been looking for this doc since it originally aired. (Trio was a great channel!)

[saintsubversive]

The post production of the film was rushed in order to achieve a Christmas release. If they had abandoned their obsession with getting it trimmed down in time for the holidays, and had let Cimino have another 6 months to edit (with a gun to his head if necessary), the final product would have been much better received and a tighter film in general. Theyd already spent a fortune, what would the extra time hurt? As it is, the film is very underrated and much better than its infamous reputation.

[bananaluvs]

This is a fascinating look at the business behind Hollywood and what happens when things go horribly awry... very very interesting documentary!

[saintsubversive]

Very cool, Ive been wanting to see this for a long time! thanks for posting!

[jerrylentz]

This is great! I still love Heaven's Gate!