Karl Marx, as Spoken of by David O. McKay, LDS Church Pres.

[TheRorybreaker]

“The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point, however, is to change it”

[gted65]

@ApertureHistory- indeed Marx's intent was to transform, control, and rob humanity of it's very core and most precious gift, agency. Marx's idea of communism would enslave men and crush agency. Agency has at it's core our godly birthright, the fire that burns within us to achieve, become better individuals, evolving society to a higher level, a whole greater than the sum of its parts. Marx would extinguish that fire. His concept of transformation is frighteningly misguided and evil.

[ApertureHistory]

The merit of Marx is that he suddenly produces a qualitative change in the history of social thought. He interprets history, understands its dynamic, predicts the future, but in addition to predicting it, he expresses a revolutionary concept: the world must not only be interpreted, it must be transformed.

[spinordie1]

God states what the results of personal decisions and actions are and then counsels and gives commandments on how to achieve happiness in this world and beyond the grave. Marx wanted to manipulate and force people to do his will.

The forces applied to follow Mormonism is the force of your own conversion and conscience. The force to follow communism is the fear of fines, imprisonment, and death.

[utgeekmattie1]

"Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost." When the Lord comes a second time, those who seek to hide deep their intellectual-only rationalizations will be the one's flustered. The Holy Ghost and the Lord do not mess around and have testified of the gospel themselves; to say you can only know truth through exercizing the brain or showing some physical phenomenon is myopic and short-sighted and lacking in character. You can prove the gospel is true by the Holy Ghost, but it is internal & individual.

[personatoobject]

Also your misreading of Hume is haunting you. Hume said that sensory responses dictate human morality, it is a manifestation of the naturalistic fallacy. You are denying the fundamentals of your and every faith by claiming a Humean understanding of morality. To you they are universal laws to which all are bound irrespective of their origins and culture, that is an apt building block for the sort of totalitarianism you claim to abhor. You are obligated to believe that morals are empirical

[TheOptimusprime9]

@personatoobject I'm not obligated moral exist at all according to human widsom alone. That's my point. Mankind left wholly to itself knows nothing. Human understanding to morality is merely a weak construct that can be undone by other men, as the nihilistic discipline proves. The only real knowlege one can ever obtain is from God. Otherwise we can never really no anything about anything. So for all your jargon and conceit, your knowlege is only a superficial vanity that will pass away.

[personatoobject]

The leaders of this church and indeed any church may pretend to humility and flawed conscience, but they all believe the religions they profess are the infallibale mind of God. Do you see how utterly contradictory that is? If there is contradiction it cannot be the flawless will of God.

[TheOptimusprime9]

@personatoobject How interesting. You've shifted the arguement for Marxism to my religion. Which is it that you'd like to discuss? Also, you've obviously never spoken about moral truth with a nihilist. According to them you are only arbitrarily putting value on what you call rational morality. Using empirical realilities can only help to to descibe how things behave in nature, not *prescribe* how a moral person ought to behave. Mister I'm smarter than 99% of the world. lol give me a break.

[personatoobject]

We were discussing the validity of the religious analysis of another opinion, naturally your and his religious opinions are at the core of your and his credibility. Would you be defending McKay if he were a Muslim or an atheist? Of course not, and you don't find that in the least bit telling do you? How risible. Your religion is nihilistic by definition because like Marxism it places no value on the world. It sanctifies death and martyrdom, it abnegates the individual in fabour of the whole.

[TheOptimusprime9]

@personatoobject I have defended Muslims and people of other beliefs many a time. I believe in the tolerence, reverence, and embrace of relgion. People who try to prove that their religions are superior to others, whether they are aetheist, muslim, jewish ect. are the one's with the problems. By the way, my religion is not nihilistic by definition, it offers value and purpose in the universe and empowers the individual. You're way off. Ta ta.

[personatoobject]

Rational principles are dictated by a posteriori empirical realities. If you derive your morality and politics from an 'unworldly' source you are an irrationalist, and everything you believe will yield harm for the world. That is why missionaries are resented by people. Not because we are misotheists, but because their arrogance is astounding. What of the harm his religion has wrought? Why are men like thiis incapable of self-critique?

[personatoobject]

I am not violating the reversibility criterion because the weight of evidence is in MY favour. Have you actually read Hume? Furthermore, it is McKay that is 'calling names' here. He doesn't summon a single logical rebuttal of Marx here, all he does is appeal to scripture. I am smarter than the majority of people, 99th percentile. How does one pretend to intelligence? Is such a thing possible? Isn't it that that's OXYMORONIC? lol

[TheOptimusprime9]

@personatoobject Not so actually. McKay never calls anyone a single name, he merely quotes the works of people who personlly knew Marx in life in order to get a feel for the kind of person that he was. After this he quotes the words of men throughout history influenced by Marx as a way of showing the fruit that Marxist ideology yields. In the very begining he points out parallels between Marxist teachings and statan's goals for humanity.

[personatoobject]

And he never calls into question or scrutinises his own ideology (i.e. Mormonism) and how much obscurantism, bigotry and stultification it has yielded. Why? Because his intellect has been partialised by religion. What of the racism, the polygamy, the Mountain Meadows Massacre? A philanthropist? The religious never engage in philanthropy without the ulterior motive of spreading the faith, it provides them with a convenient opportunity to do so. He is a transparent hypocrite, and so are you.

[personatoobject]

@TheOptimusprime9 Let the record speak for itself, I am no Marxist. My only claim here, and I am obviously correct, is that McKay is not making a valid case against Marx by citing Mormon notions of prehistory. What of the comonalities between the communalism of the early Christians and indeed the united order? That is Christian socialism, what of the parallels between Marxism's ultimate objectives and those of Christianity? Your thinking is unilateral, bye now. I have a degree to earn.

[TheOptimusprime9]

@personatoobject Good luck on earning your degree. I have one to earn as well. My thinking is not unilateral or hypocritical by any means. For all the similarities between marxism and the communalism of early christianity, there is one major difference: free will. In Christian communalism it is not believed people should be forced into making the system work against their will, in Marxism it is. And I m not disagreeing that McKay isn't making a conclusive case against Marx, but his infoisuseful.

[TheOptimusprime9]

@personatoobject Was Marx rebutted here? Not in the least. I'm not sure that was Mckay's goal. What he was doing was an attempt to show why he dislikes and is cautious of Marxist teachings due to their eternal origin, wordly source, and historical influences. As for pretending to intelligence, I would suppose it is possible especially when you take into account that no one has ever truly to been able to define what intelligence really is. Having a good vocab makes no no better than your peers.

[TheOptimusprime9]

@personatoobject Would you like a rebuttal of Marx? I have a few. The fact that he promote a strong centralized government as a rememedy to capitalism and facism. He replaces one form of oppresion with another. Also, the fact that he promotes the use of force in order to acheive his ends. Marx promotes violent activism in order to bring about the ends of his political and economic ideals. These are problems with his system, and no one can deny that Marxist teachings have at least some flaws.

[personatoobject]

My branding of McKay as an idiot actually illustrates the qualitative validity of my reasoning. His 'reasoning' is partial therefore it is not objective it is sans-evidence therefore it can be dismissed without evidence therefore he is a fool. I'll grant you the conclusion is something of an epistemic leap, but given the weight of the evidence against him, and the shoddiness of his oratory, I wager he is a fool nonetheless. Hone your arguments lest you look a fool also. Whoops too late.

[TheOptimusprime9]

@personatoobject If you say so. Call me a fool all you want, it doesn't make a difference to me. You still violate the reversibility criterion. Calling names has never been a good way of conducting a debate. So if you're ready to talk like a grown up we can discuss Marx and McKay fairly. Stop pretending you're so much smarter than others and that your belief system is superior to everyone else's. McKay might not have the right method of analyzing Marx, but he was right to be leery of him.

[utgeekmattie1]

AntidoteY:Your claim that Mormons believe that ALL Native Americans descended from Lehi's family (and thus a tribe of Israel) is false, and disputed from a casual reading of the Book of Mormon (you have actually read the book, have you not?) and also science. Your simplistic answer to me says you do not know all the details of Genetics and Native Americans. There are many good websites that go into more academic detail. Basic antimormon crapware: claim we believe something that is not true.

[freetube1to1]

@mistawu66 Yes we like to do what Jesus did and expose lies and false teachings, we could even tell you that your father is Satan and still be in line with Jesus.

[GohModley]

Jesus was a socialist, not a supply-side conservative. Use the New Testament and prove me wrong.

[utgeekmattie1]

God exists and everyone can know it. Those who don't know have no one else to blame but themselves. God has not hidden the process on how to gain an knowledge of Him our Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the witness of the Holy Ghost. Pseudo-intellectuals who claim that the method is hogwash are either liars, ignorant, walk by the lamp of their own self-conceit, or rejected by God and not beneficiaries of this wonderful knowledge on account of their own haughty pride and self-aggrandizement.

[deceiver123m]

hahahahaha fake ass mormons; even freemasons get more credibility and they lie by design

[utgeekmattie1]

@deceiver123m

Mormon doctrine is sound. Since when have you heard of a religion that states Jesus Christ appeared to its leaders, on top of the old Apostles Peter,James, and John, in addition to actual appearances from Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Elias, and John the Baptist? Not only is the doctrine of the Church extremely sound and rational, but the Church belongs to Jesus and numerous of it's leaders and ordinary members are guided by personal revelation daily. The Mormons have everything.

[CrustVegan]

@utgeekmattie1

The mormon doctrine is rational? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Jesus christ, you're a fucking retard.

[Revolutionarythought]

The foundation of irreligious criticism is this: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is indeed man's self-consciousness and self-awareness so long as he has not found himself or has already lost himself again. But, man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man -- state, society.

[Revolutionarythought]

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

[Davidboomsplat]

hey morons, how the hell can you deny that Obama and his people are commies, every action they take mirrors that of commies before them. Every word they say defies any logic.

[quickgasgang]

Marx was notoriously dismissive of theologians. This man is not even a theologian. He is merely a fanatic. No self-respecting philosopher, Marx included, would spare him a breath.

[ediblesponge]

I mistakenly read 'LSD .. press', and was expecting a very different video :\

I'm not too keen on this guy, though... and i doubt that Marx would be either, so it's only natural that they would oppose... although here we find a drawback of death; the possibility of a debate becomes only that of a monologue :\ :(

[deceiver123m]

@ediblesponge drop dead commie scum

[utgeekmattie1]

@ediblesponge

You are not discussing the merits/lack of merit of the statements made by David O McKay who was mostly just quoting what these evil leaders said (who made millions of people suffer) so I have to assume you have not made any valid intellectual contribution to this discussion. You sound more like a lot of people I know who disdain religion, perhaps because God does not mince words when he lets us know we are committing wrong. Monologue? This video is very insightful.

[ediblesponge]

@utgeekmattie1 Well, to steal your phrasing, you sound more like a lot of people I know who dogmatically and closed-mindedly pursue religion and attempt to deny others of the rights to their own opinions. God's minced more words since the dawn of time than butchers have minced sausages in the same period... proof of this is that if there was no mincing of words then perhaps all people would worship one God and agree on everything about him/her rather than following strange cults like Mormonism.

[AntidoteY]

Marx's teachings will resonate throughout history. McKay, the prophet of a pederast cult and follower of the charlatan demagogue Joseph Smith, is a forgettable man whose words will only resonate with forgettable people.

[utgeekmattie1]

@AntidoteY

You have no proof Joseph Smith actually had sex with the women who were sealed to him since we have no idea where his additional children are. Book of Mormon stands on it's own two feet: you could never produce any religious dogma so simple and yet so overarching in subject matter as found in the Book of Mormon. You make generic blatant hate-filled statements without specifics knowing that the anti-Mormon rhetoric has already been proven false.

[AntidoteY]

@utgeekmattie1

Fuck you you Mormon slut. Go find the Garden of Eden in Missouri, take some gold plates with you, and your multiple ugly wives with the worst haircuts in the world, and kill yourself.

Faggot.

[utgeekmattie1]

@AntidoteY

I'll let Jesus judge between me and you. I dare you to repeat that when we both are standing before Him. But Apostle Peter mentions how even Satan the Accuser will accuse the brethren before the throne of God day and night, so I will not be surprised to see others accusing one another in the day of judgement. Jesus condemns the sin but loves the sinner. We are doing ourselves a favor and allowing Him to be merciful toward us as we show mercy toward others.

[AntidoteY]

@utgeekmattie1

I suppose at the gates of heaven you will be willing to suck off your impotent prophets and saviors just to prove how much of an ideological whore you are.

Do us all a favor. Go in the kitchen, leave the gas of your oven on for a few minutes, and then light a match.

[personatoobject]

@utgeekmattie1 Faith is called faith precisely because it is unqualified belief in the unseen, hence it is outside the bounds of rational discourse. You are a fool. These appearances you speak of are a matter of faith, they are unverified, nor can they be verified by rational means of validation. I really do pity you, I have insufficient space to provide you with a complete rebuttal. Suffice it to say that your every claim here is utter bullshit.

[TheOptimusprime9]

@personatoobject Your comtempt for faith suprises me since you yourself must also base the decisions of your life upon the same principle. You may invest your faith in other things, but you must never the less rely on faith just as much as any other person.

[personatoobject]

@TheOptimusprime9 Indubitably, that is true. However, I invest my faith in things which can be qualitatively validated. For instance the demonstrable truth that religious affiliation by definition partialises the intellect and produces partisan evaluations like this one, allegations that do not take into account the times in which Marx lived, but instead depict him as an antichrist with the aid of ad hominem arguments that don't even try to dismantle the man's claims. McKay was an idiot.

[TheOptimusprime9]

@personatoobject Your "qualitively" validated analysis of religion is a short sighted generalization. Even those who claim no religious affiliation can be prone to produce "partisan evaluations." McKay was a very good man, a philanthopist who was just as prone to human error as you or I. His weakness caused him to let his emotions get the better of him. I found it funny that you called McKay an idiot for his ad hominem. An ad hominem attack in itself. Remember your rules apply to you also lol.

[personatoobject]

@TheOptimusprime9 Furthermore, it's qualitatively. I understand your American, and the English language is hard for you, but please try not to despoil it this way.

[utgeekmattie1]

@AntidoteY The Mormons have the priesthood of God and their members receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost when baptized if they are worthy. Jesus Christ founded via Joseph Smith as His authorized servant the Restoration of His Church with His authority and power and spiritual gifts. All you have are bitter words, but the Mormons have living prophets because it is Jesus' true Church. Marxist philosophy caused great sufferingl; it is an oxymoron to think you can create equality via violence.

[AntidoteY]

@utgeekmattie1

Genetic evidence of Native American tribes compared to the ancient Israelites proves your absurd, quaint cult of child-molesting, polyamorous murderers to be based on nothing more than superstition and lies like the Christian myths Joseph Smith decided to found his shit-scheme off of... So you can shove those golden plates up your self-righteous ass, Brigham Young.

[personatoobject]

You assert that the Mormons have priesthood and the holy ghost, assertions for which you have NO corroborating evidence at all. Hence you cannot on that shaky basis deduce conclusively that violence cannot achieve equality, which is a cosmetic analysis of Marxist thought anyway. Religion and free market economics (of which I myself am a champion) are the primary causes of global unrest. Marx ventured a solution. Pray tell, what fucking difference has your dogma made to human misery? None.

[cpenter]

McKay sure chose an odd source in Bakunin to criticize Marx, since Bakunin was a collectivist anarchist. Saying that he fell under the purge is a bit misleading, he was kicked out of the International, and died in Switzerland in 1876.

[omiolo]

Two months after Latter-day Saint historians returned from New York after winning several documents at auction, dozens of private LDS collectors handled the personal letters of prophets Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young and many others at BYU's annual "A. Dean Larsen Book Collecting Conference."

[omiolo]

Brad Westwood, manager of collections development for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' history department, passed around several letters of 19th-century Mormon correspondence at the annual conference on March 19.

[omiolo]

On a chilly December day, we gathered in the Salt Lake Tabernacle to pay honor and tribute at the funeral services for a man whom we loved, honored, and followed--even President Harold B. Lee. Prophetic in his utterance, powerful in his leadership, devoted in his service, President Lee inspired in all of us a desire to achieve perfection. He counseled us, "Keep the commandments of God. Follow the pathway of the Lord.

[larstorsson]

a) The idea that Marx was a "demon incarnate"

b) The idea that Obama is going to implement Marxist ideas

Cloud-cuckoo land!

[larstorsson]

I think you are stark raving mad

[wjsprsn]

why? or is that just your opinion,

[LukeAir2008]

Fantastic. Pres. McKay was under no illusions as to the nature and philosophy of these incarnate demons. The US now has a President who wants to implement these terrible ideas.

[seanpdineen]

He was a great man, as a Catholic, one of my best friends, a physical therapist, was his caregiver. great mind

[DefendingMormonism]

Very interesting talk. Thank you for posting!

[JoeE71]

Love it! Thanks!

[12345fraser]

Great Vid! Keep em coming!