-Because the death penalty is the punishment given by a neutrel judge, there is no vengance in it. Therefore, there is no moral objection to be had with the death penalty.
-The death penalty defends human rights by establishing a mentality that "we will not tolerate any violation of any innocent person's human right's. Those who take the life of another have their human rights stripped
-It holds people responcible for the horrible content of their character. This fulfills what MLKJ always wanted: judge not by the color of your skin, but by the content of your character. The characterof these criminals warrants death
-It holds the criminal responcible for his actions
-appeals and shit aside, it's cheaper then prison
-it decreases the prison population, which saves even more taxpayers money
There is no logical argument against the death penalty. Any argument anybody has made against the death penalty has been deconstructed and proven void. I challenge you to come up with some logical reasons
And furthermore, prove to me that you are NOT pro-criminal. It's people like you who defend the criminal by being against the death penalty that are dangerous to our society. Just why the HELL would you be against the death penalty? (without any regards to what Jesus would do)
"I simply stated that not everyone believes Jesus IS God"
And why is that relevant? If your so knowledgable about the bible, you would know damn well that Jesus IS God, and any claims by people who believe he isn't God become moot. But yet, you bring up those people over and over again in an attempt to validate your point about Jesus being anti-death penalty. Why?
"i've taken two college level classes on the bible"
Apparently you learned nothing, considering you don't believe that jesus is God, despite what he claimed. You prefer to believe what the people WANT to believe (that Jesus ISN'T God), because it fits your pro-criminal agenda.
You are ignorant, and you make assumptions. I never said anything ever about what MY beliefs were. I simply stated that not everyone believes Jesus IS God. LEARN TO READ. And you're assumption of my pro-criminality is unfounded and a cheap, yet pathetic, shot at me. Try again. Thanks, bye.
honey, in the real translation, it isnt "thou shall not kill" its "thou shall not murder". murdering and killing are two different things. if youre going to post something like this, do a little research first.
yes i'm sure you're right. i've done research, i've taken two college level classes on the bible. my point has nothing to do with research though. what i'm saying is, based on what most people believe about Jesus, that he would not kill or murder. if i am so incorrect about this, then why didn't Huckabee, a person with a DEGREE in theology, explain this to us at the debate? why didnt he say, "yes, Jesus would support the death penalty, and here's why..."?
"And yes, it is God/Jesus doing the killing, the JUDGING - not MAN."
Yes, but God gives man the authority to judge like that. That's why it says at the end of Genesis 9:6 "by MAN shall his blood be shed. For in the image of God, has God made man"
"Please let me have mine, and treat me with respect. Thank you."
You can believe whatever you want to believe. I don't care. You were the one who said that Jesus would be against the death penalty, and I'm merely disproving that. And believe me, you aren't the only one I'm trying to disprove in regards to Jesus and the death penalty.
"Are you saying Born Agains are the only one's who believe in Jesus that can answer questions about Jesus? Sorry, but you're wrong."
A born again Christian can be associated with every denimonation you mentioned (even though I'm skeptical about Jehovas Witnesses and mormons) Personally, I am a baptist, but I know many other born again believers that are of different denimonations
That being said, I choose to take God's stance on the death penalty literally, and I choose to not do so with love your enimies, because tkae what God said about the death penalty literally is common sense, IMO, whereas taking "love your enimies" literally is absolute madness, in some circumstances.
Besides, Jesus himself-or God, whoever-blatantly failed to love their enimies in Revelation 19:11-21, so I'm thinking Jesus doen't take what he said literally either.
"so then why are you taking the examples you're showing me literally?"
You don't have to take the verses that I've quoted literally. And if you want to take love your enimies literally, go ahead. Yohcan't take both verses literally-that's for sure. But I do think you can choose to take one or the other literally.
I think we've exhausted this topic. I respect your beliefs. It's OK for you to have them. Please let me have mine, and treat me with respect. Thank you.
"YOU are using your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to support YOUR stance on the death penalty"
Jesus agrees with me on the death penalty, but my justification of it is not because of what Jesus said. I justify it because it serves due justice in the court system, it puts taxpayers money to good use (it puts them 6 feet under the ground instead of clothing and feeding them), and it thoroughly ensures a 0% recidivism rate.
"God CHANGES HIS MIND ABOUT KILLING AT THE END OF GENESIS."
I think you mistaked Genesis for Exodus 20, and even so, the death penalty is justified by God, and By Jesus. God said so. Get Genesis 9:6 through your criminal loving head, and read what God/Jesus do in Revelation (and I don't give a shit what their intent was. Feeding your enimies to the birds and taking a sword out of your mouth is damn harsh)
Yes I meant Exodus. I get Genesis 9:6. I also understand that Exodus comes after Genesis, and God contradicts Himself with the 5th Commandment. I don't love criminals. And yes, it is God/Jesus doing the killing, the JUDGING - not MAN.
God oesn't speak in our language. That's why he says in Jeremiah that "his ways aren't our ways, and his thoughts aren't our thoughts." love your enimies doesn't mean "tolerate sin," like you advocate (and when you tolerate the actions of first degree criminals, that's just flat out dangerous). there are exceptions to love your enimies, and the death penalty )and punishing crime in general) is one of them.
You can't just read stuff like Matthew 5 and and the 5th commandment (thou shall not kill) and take it literaly. You have to balance out the Bible. The Bible blatantly contradicts itself if you take everything literaly. Yiou have to make it "fit together."
Well then it seems as if we're "fitting it together" differently. You just said you can't take everything literally - so then why are you taking the examples you're showing me literally? What makes those different than "Thou shall not kill?"
And about Ecclesiastes: when God says that there is a time to kill, the death penalty is one of those times. That's why he says what he says in Genesis 9:6. I don't give a damn if he was "judging anybody or not." The BL is, he gives to authgority to kill those who have killed others.
"Well, buddy, you're dealing with people like me who feel all people matter, and all opinions and views and interpretations matter"
Why the hell would anybody propose a WWJD scenerio to an athiest or a Jew or a muslim-people who don't give two shits what the Bible says? WWJD is for born again Christians and born again Christians only. We are the people qualified to answer this question, not Joe Schmo from the ACLU.
Furthermore, even if Jesus ISN't the man on the white horse, and that it's God the father instead, really, it dosn't matter, because born again Christians like myself believe that Jesus is God, so therefore, everything that that man on the white horse did (sword coming out of his mouth and killing his enimies, etc) either Jesus did himself OR Jesus 100% approved of.
If you don't believe that Jesus is God, that's fine by me. Because if that is really true, then I don't believe a DAMN thing that Jesus says, and I'll speak for God and how he gets in the face of evil.
But I firmly believe that Jesus is God, and that he can speak for God, and that God can speak for him. Therefore, everything that God said in Genesis, Ecclesiastes, whatever, echo's what Jesus believes.
"Revelation is God judging people, Genesis is God, Ecclesiastes doesn't even say anything about death penalty, just "a time to kill"
For heavens sake, this is becoming a circus. God and Jesus are one-Jesus even says tghroughout Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. IO thought I explained this already. Apparently I didn't. God speaks for Jesus in Genesis 9:6, Ecclesiastes 3:3, and in Revelation, that's Jesus himself feeds his enimies to the birds.
You've been saying that Jesus isn't God. Well guess what buddy, you're dealing with people like me who believe that Jesus is God. I don't give 2 shits what people say about Jesus if they don't believe that he is God. WWJD is a question for born again Christins and born again Christians only. any body who wishes to pos this question will discuss it according to OUR beliefs about the Bible. Otherwise, the question is completely irrelevant and worthless.
So you're the only Christians that matter, huh? Well, buddy, you're dealing with people like me who feel all people matter, and all opinions and views and interpretations matter. It's called Democracy, it's called America. Get out if you think you're the only one that matters, because you're not.
people like you are using my lod and Savior-Jesus Christ-to justify your stance against the death penalty. That's a disgusting act. The Bible clearly shows Jesus's stance on the death penalty-and he's for it. End of story.
It doesn't get much simpler then if a man sheds another man's bllod "by men shall his blood be shed."
If I am using your lord and Savior Jesus Christ to justify my stance against the death penalty, then YOU are using your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to support YOUR stance on the death penalty.
Sorry but I disagree. That is GOD saying that, in GENESIS. NOT JESUS. What about the 10 commandments?! "Thou shall not Kill" EXPLAIN THAT. God CHANGES HIS MIND ABOUT KILLING AT THE END OF GENESIS. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
Lets get back to the original question here, as everything is becoming too abstract:
What would Jesus do in regards to the death penalty?
He would support it. Revelation 19:11-21, Genesis 9:6, and Ecclesiastes 3:3 prove this.
By the way, God's name 's GOD. Every one knows that too. I'm waiing on you to explain how the "name only he knoes" proves or disproves that Jesus isn't ther man on the white horse. That seems like a pointless topic to debate.
I thought you were done discussing this with me? I could keep going if you'd like, so I'll humor you.
Sorry, but those passages do not show Jesus supporting the death penalty. Revelation is God judging people, Genesis is God, Ecclesiastes doesn't even say anything about death penalty, just "a time to kill"
You scare me. Just like Islamic extremists twist their holy book to support killing people, you seem to be twisting words to support a death penalty. I'm not saying Killing isn't necessary in terms of defense, or in times of war. I'm saying the death penalty.
And GOD is not God's real name. PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH. Just google Yahweh. God says this is his name with Moses and the burning bush.
Also, if you don't believe that Jesus is God's son AND that Jesus is God himself, I have no interest in debating this topic. The man in Revelation 19:11-21 IS Jesus. Jesus can definitely have a name that "no one knows but himself."
Apparently, "love your enimies" has a deeper meaning then simply "tolerate sin" (and raping and torturing innocent victims is the worst kind of sin)
I have no further interest in debating with you either. You don't back up any of your arguments. How is that "Jesus can definitely have a name that 'no one knows but himself.'" No he doesn't. It's Jesus, everyone knows it. Where are you basing this statement from? It is GOD's true name no one knows. Do some research beyond only reading the Bible. (Did you know that "feet" in the Old Testament is a euphemism for genitals? No, I don't think you do.)
I've tried to have a good, honest discussion with you, but I suppose that's a lost cause.
Further, I don't know what your trying to prove with this "love your enemies" stuff, which only seems to support my argument, not yours. yes raping and torturing innocent victims is the words kind of sins. Ok. Fine. What do you MEAN by this? Never mind. I don't care anymore. Thank you for your time.
I don't know, WWJD is a ctachy phrase among peopl who think they are Christians. Jesus would kill first degree criminals anyways, but beyond that, look at what he did to (and not just Revelation 19:11-21, but look at his "love your enimies" emotions in Matthew 23 and John 2. Pretty intense, huh?)
I just read Matthew 23 and John 2. I don't see what you're saying here. Jesus is not killing anybody in these passages. Sure, he's pissed in Matthew 23, calling the Pharisees snakes and vipers.
All I'm saying is Would Jesus support the Death Penalty? Would Jesus leave it up to Man to kill another man, to judge another man. I'm sorry, but I will no longer discuss this with you if you still think Jesus would bestow that responsibility on man. BTW, why do you love gore-fest videos? You seemed to be obsessed with violence.
"Jesus died over 2000 years ago, but yet he's in the future?"
And according to the beliefs of born again Christians like myself, he rose from the dead (as is recorded in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the first part of Acts).
Yes I know he rose from the dead, resurrected. I know he died, descended to Hell, rose from the dead, and finally ascended to Heaven - at least according to the Apostles' Creed. And I do not believe this belief belongs solely to born again Christians, don't all types of Christians - or at least most - believe in Christ's resurrection? Isn't that the foundation of Christianity??
These are rhetorical questions. You do not need to further comment unless you reveal something to me that I wouldn't know. Of course I know the belief is that Jesus rose from the dead.
"Lastly, you're failing to understand that not everyone believes Jesus=God and God=Jesus. )If so then why don't people ask "What would God do?")"
I have no interest in dealing with people who don't believe that Jesus isn't God's son. I will not to debate with you on this topic any further if you believe that Jesus isn't God's son, but rather a "prophet." If I'm wrong, and Jesus really was a prophet, then this whole WWJD and the death penalty thing doesn't apply to me.
I never said that Jesus wasn't God's son. Everyone knows Jesus is God's son. Please Read My Words. What I'm saying is that not everyone believes that God IS Jesus/Jesus IS God, at least not in Genesis - meaning that when you gave an example of Jesus killing in Genesis (when it was really God, way before Jesus ever existed) - not everyone will see it that way. Not everyone will read Genesis and think Jesus is in it and that Jesus is the one who, say, kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah.
I understand that Jesus is God in the flesh in the New Testament, but to a lot of people - not in the Old Testament. Speaking of which, I actually watched The Nativity Story last night (a movie that came out recently), it was pretty good.
One more thing: it is clearly implied in Rwevelation 19:11-21 that the man on the White horse with the double edged sword is Jesus. No offense, but I think you're a little delusional if you can't see that.
Delusional: "A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith)."
So, if I were you, I'd know what the definition means before using it. Further, If I were you, I would not resort to insulting other people (even if I preface it with "No offense"). It's called respect.
Lastly, you're failing to understand that not everyone believes Jesus=God and God=Jesus. )If so then why don't people ask "What would God do?")
Upon reading the passage, I do see how one would think that it is Jesus on the horse. "His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns." The crowns allude to his crown of thorns.
However what makes me think it is not Jesus but God Himself is the following, "He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself." As I'm sure you know, there is a belief that no one knows God's true name (although the Jewish people refer to Him as Yahweh, however they never say it - and may I state that the Jewish God in the Old testament is the same God in the New testament).
Regardless, we know Jesus died for our sins. Revelations, especially this passage, is apocalyptic (note: NOT the Apocalypse) - meaning taking place towards the end of time. Jesus died over 2000 years ago, but yet he's in the future?
It's possible, I'm not denying that, nor am I denying that you are wrong or "delusional." But I see it as God, or at least the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit) as the Christian idea of God is the Trinity: three entities in One Being.
Like Huckabee said: Are we supposed to understand everything in the Bible? No, finite beings will never be able to understand the words of an Infinite being (God).
And to further quote Huckabee, a former Minister, not all of the bible is literal - it is allegorical, metaphorical, etc...
You may disagree, and that is fine. I respect that.
And about the politicians: I can't answer that for you. I don't know what they think when they answer simple questions like that (yes or no questions).
"Although you state that God and Jesus are one in the same, not everyone believes that, and you need to respect that."
This question "would Jesus support the death penalty" was directed at conservative Christians such as myself. A true conservative Christian believes that Jesus and God or one. It's fine to believe that Jesus and God aren't one, but if that's the case, that paerson can't technically classify himself as a "Christian."
however my point was different. What I meant was either two things:
A) if i'm right, and Jesus would never kill anybody, then why can't they give a straight answer and say "no, Jesus would not support the death sentence?"
B) If you're right, and Jesus would kill and support the death sentence, then why can't they then say, "Yes, Jesus would support the death sentence?"
And plus, like I already mentioned, Revelation 19:11-21 is a perfect example of Jesus using the death penalty in action (a pretty brutal one, at that).
He also mentione something about taking a sword out of his mouth and killing people somewhere in Revelation 1.
When it comes to evil, Jesus would get in it's face, just like his father would.
Again, you're saying Jesus, but this passage does not mention Jesus. Although you state that God and Jesus are one in the same, not everyone believes that, and you need to respect that.
You don't need to agree, but at least respect other perspectives.
"but I do know that jesus is no in the first testament, and therefore not in Genesis. So pardon me if I take what you say with a grain of salt."
Also, consider this: Jesus says throughour Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John that "I and the father (God) are one." In other words, Jesus can speak for God, and God can speak for Jesus. The two can never contradict themselves. Jesus spoke for God in Matthew, Mark, etc, whereas God spoke for Jesus in Genesis 9:6 and Ecclesiastes 3:3.
you should also keep in mind that the old testament is a jewish book, not a christian one.
and while you may be right, you're interpretation could be wrong. and i think a significant amount of people would disagree with you, especially the people who wrote the book: Jews.
perhaps you're correct, but I do know that jesus is no in the first testament, and therefore not in Genesis. So pardon me if I take what you say with a grain of salt.
And if it is true that Jesus would kill, why can't any of the candidates say it? Or, conversely, why can't they say that he would not kill?
And may I remind all of you that we're talking about Jesus here, not me, not you, not anybody else.
If you want to know what Jesus would really do, Jesus would forgive, not kill.
Although I don't think we should forgive a person who kills little girls and then says, after getting caught, that he would kill more little girls if he could.
-Because the death penalty is the punishment given by a neutrel judge, there is no vengance in it. Therefore, there is no moral objection to be had with the death penalty.
-The death penalty defends human rights by establishing a mentality that "we will not tolerate any violation of any innocent person's human right's. Those who take the life of another have their human rights stripped
08pooled 4 years ago
-It holds people responcible for the horrible content of their character. This fulfills what MLKJ always wanted: judge not by the color of your skin, but by the content of your character. The characterof these criminals warrants death
-It holds the criminal responcible for his actions
-appeals and shit aside, it's cheaper then prison
-it decreases the prison population, which saves even more taxpayers money
08pooled 4 years ago
Meanwhile, here are my arguments FOR the death penalty:
-it serves due justice (the punishment fits the crime), and serving due justice is the NO.1 job of a court of law
-it shows that we are tough on crime
-it gets bang for the taxpayers buck
-criminals given the DP have a 0% recidivism rate
08pooled 4 years ago
There is no logical argument against the death penalty. Any argument anybody has made against the death penalty has been deconstructed and proven void. I challenge you to come up with some logical reasons
08pooled 4 years ago
And furthermore, prove to me that you are NOT pro-criminal. It's people like you who defend the criminal by being against the death penalty that are dangerous to our society. Just why the HELL would you be against the death penalty? (without any regards to what Jesus would do)
08pooled 4 years ago
"I simply stated that not everyone believes Jesus IS God"
And why is that relevant? If your so knowledgable about the bible, you would know damn well that Jesus IS God, and any claims by people who believe he isn't God become moot. But yet, you bring up those people over and over again in an attempt to validate your point about Jesus being anti-death penalty. Why?
08pooled 4 years ago
"i've taken two college level classes on the bible"
Apparently you learned nothing, considering you don't believe that jesus is God, despite what he claimed. You prefer to believe what the people WANT to believe (that Jesus ISN'T God), because it fits your pro-criminal agenda.
08pooled 4 years ago
You are ignorant, and you make assumptions. I never said anything ever about what MY beliefs were. I simply stated that not everyone believes Jesus IS God. LEARN TO READ. And you're assumption of my pro-criminality is unfounded and a cheap, yet pathetic, shot at me. Try again. Thanks, bye.
philostophist 4 years ago
haha check this out guys: evilbible dot com
seems to support most of what you're saying so im sure you'll agree with the site!
philostophist 4 years ago
honey, in the real translation, it isnt "thou shall not kill" its "thou shall not murder". murdering and killing are two different things. if youre going to post something like this, do a little research first.
lilmissperfectnl 4 years ago
yes i'm sure you're right. i've done research, i've taken two college level classes on the bible. my point has nothing to do with research though. what i'm saying is, based on what most people believe about Jesus, that he would not kill or murder. if i am so incorrect about this, then why didn't Huckabee, a person with a DEGREE in theology, explain this to us at the debate? why didnt he say, "yes, Jesus would support the death penalty, and here's why..."?
philostophist 4 years ago
"And believe me, you aren't the only one I'm trying to disprove in regards to Jesus and the death penalty."
Yes, I know I'm not alone in my opinion. So it goes.
philostophist 4 years ago
"And yes, it is God/Jesus doing the killing, the JUDGING - not MAN."
Yes, but God gives man the authority to judge like that. That's why it says at the end of Genesis 9:6 "by MAN shall his blood be shed. For in the image of God, has God made man"
08pooled 4 years ago
"Please let me have mine, and treat me with respect. Thank you."
You can believe whatever you want to believe. I don't care. You were the one who said that Jesus would be against the death penalty, and I'm merely disproving that. And believe me, you aren't the only one I'm trying to disprove in regards to Jesus and the death penalty.
08pooled 4 years ago
"Are you saying Born Agains are the only one's who believe in Jesus that can answer questions about Jesus? Sorry, but you're wrong."
A born again Christian can be associated with every denimonation you mentioned (even though I'm skeptical about Jehovas Witnesses and mormons) Personally, I am a baptist, but I know many other born again believers that are of different denimonations
08pooled 4 years ago
That being said, I choose to take God's stance on the death penalty literally, and I choose to not do so with love your enimies, because tkae what God said about the death penalty literally is common sense, IMO, whereas taking "love your enimies" literally is absolute madness, in some circumstances.
Besides, Jesus himself-or God, whoever-blatantly failed to love their enimies in Revelation 19:11-21, so I'm thinking Jesus doen't take what he said literally either.
08pooled 4 years ago
"so then why are you taking the examples you're showing me literally?"
You don't have to take the verses that I've quoted literally. And if you want to take love your enimies literally, go ahead. Yohcan't take both verses literally-that's for sure. But I do think you can choose to take one or the other literally.
08pooled 4 years ago
I think we've exhausted this topic. I respect your beliefs. It's OK for you to have them. Please let me have mine, and treat me with respect. Thank you.
philostophist 4 years ago
"YOU are using your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to support YOUR stance on the death penalty"
Jesus agrees with me on the death penalty, but my justification of it is not because of what Jesus said. I justify it because it serves due justice in the court system, it puts taxpayers money to good use (it puts them 6 feet under the ground instead of clothing and feeding them), and it thoroughly ensures a 0% recidivism rate.
08pooled 4 years ago
"God CHANGES HIS MIND ABOUT KILLING AT THE END OF GENESIS."
I think you mistaked Genesis for Exodus 20, and even so, the death penalty is justified by God, and By Jesus. God said so. Get Genesis 9:6 through your criminal loving head, and read what God/Jesus do in Revelation (and I don't give a shit what their intent was. Feeding your enimies to the birds and taking a sword out of your mouth is damn harsh)
08pooled 4 years ago
Yes I meant Exodus. I get Genesis 9:6. I also understand that Exodus comes after Genesis, and God contradicts Himself with the 5th Commandment. I don't love criminals. And yes, it is God/Jesus doing the killing, the JUDGING - not MAN.
philostophist 4 years ago
God oesn't speak in our language. That's why he says in Jeremiah that "his ways aren't our ways, and his thoughts aren't our thoughts." love your enimies doesn't mean "tolerate sin," like you advocate (and when you tolerate the actions of first degree criminals, that's just flat out dangerous). there are exceptions to love your enimies, and the death penalty )and punishing crime in general) is one of them.
08pooled 4 years ago
You can't just read stuff like Matthew 5 and and the 5th commandment (thou shall not kill) and take it literaly. You have to balance out the Bible. The Bible blatantly contradicts itself if you take everything literaly. Yiou have to make it "fit together."
08pooled 4 years ago
Well then it seems as if we're "fitting it together" differently. You just said you can't take everything literally - so then why are you taking the examples you're showing me literally? What makes those different than "Thou shall not kill?"
philostophist 4 years ago
And about Ecclesiastes: when God says that there is a time to kill, the death penalty is one of those times. That's why he says what he says in Genesis 9:6. I don't give a damn if he was "judging anybody or not." The BL is, he gives to authgority to kill those who have killed others.
08pooled 4 years ago
"Well, buddy, you're dealing with people like me who feel all people matter, and all opinions and views and interpretations matter"
Why the hell would anybody propose a WWJD scenerio to an athiest or a Jew or a muslim-people who don't give two shits what the Bible says? WWJD is for born again Christians and born again Christians only. We are the people qualified to answer this question, not Joe Schmo from the ACLU.
08pooled 4 years ago
What about Catholics? Lutherans? Baptists? Presbyterians? Episcopal? Methodist? Pentecostals? Congregationals? Mormons? 7th Day Adventists? Jehovah's Witnesses? Unitarians?
Are you saying Born Agains are the only one's who believe in Jesus that can answer questions about Jesus? Sorry, but you're wrong.
philostophist 4 years ago
Furthermore, even if Jesus ISN't the man on the white horse, and that it's God the father instead, really, it dosn't matter, because born again Christians like myself believe that Jesus is God, so therefore, everything that that man on the white horse did (sword coming out of his mouth and killing his enimies, etc) either Jesus did himself OR Jesus 100% approved of.
08pooled 4 years ago
If you don't believe that Jesus is God, that's fine by me. Because if that is really true, then I don't believe a DAMN thing that Jesus says, and I'll speak for God and how he gets in the face of evil.
But I firmly believe that Jesus is God, and that he can speak for God, and that God can speak for him. Therefore, everything that God said in Genesis, Ecclesiastes, whatever, echo's what Jesus believes.
08pooled 4 years ago
"Revelation is God judging people, Genesis is God, Ecclesiastes doesn't even say anything about death penalty, just "a time to kill"
For heavens sake, this is becoming a circus. God and Jesus are one-Jesus even says tghroughout Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. IO thought I explained this already. Apparently I didn't. God speaks for Jesus in Genesis 9:6, Ecclesiastes 3:3, and in Revelation, that's Jesus himself feeds his enimies to the birds.
08pooled 4 years ago
You've been saying that Jesus isn't God. Well guess what buddy, you're dealing with people like me who believe that Jesus is God. I don't give 2 shits what people say about Jesus if they don't believe that he is God. WWJD is a question for born again Christins and born again Christians only. any body who wishes to pos this question will discuss it according to OUR beliefs about the Bible. Otherwise, the question is completely irrelevant and worthless.
08pooled 4 years ago
So you're the only Christians that matter, huh? Well, buddy, you're dealing with people like me who feel all people matter, and all opinions and views and interpretations matter. It's called Democracy, it's called America. Get out if you think you're the only one that matters, because you're not.
philostophist 4 years ago
And furthermore, I want to point this out:
people like you are using my lod and Savior-Jesus Christ-to justify your stance against the death penalty. That's a disgusting act. The Bible clearly shows Jesus's stance on the death penalty-and he's for it. End of story.
It doesn't get much simpler then if a man sheds another man's bllod "by men shall his blood be shed."
08pooled 4 years ago
If I am using your lord and Savior Jesus Christ to justify my stance against the death penalty, then YOU are using your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to support YOUR stance on the death penalty.
Sorry but I disagree. That is GOD saying that, in GENESIS. NOT JESUS. What about the 10 commandments?! "Thou shall not Kill" EXPLAIN THAT. God CHANGES HIS MIND ABOUT KILLING AT THE END OF GENESIS. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
philostophist 4 years ago
Lets get back to the original question here, as everything is becoming too abstract:
What would Jesus do in regards to the death penalty?
He would support it. Revelation 19:11-21, Genesis 9:6, and Ecclesiastes 3:3 prove this.
By the way, God's name 's GOD. Every one knows that too. I'm waiing on you to explain how the "name only he knoes" proves or disproves that Jesus isn't ther man on the white horse. That seems like a pointless topic to debate.
08pooled 4 years ago
I thought you were done discussing this with me? I could keep going if you'd like, so I'll humor you.
Sorry, but those passages do not show Jesus supporting the death penalty. Revelation is God judging people, Genesis is God, Ecclesiastes doesn't even say anything about death penalty, just "a time to kill"
philostophist 4 years ago
You scare me. Just like Islamic extremists twist their holy book to support killing people, you seem to be twisting words to support a death penalty. I'm not saying Killing isn't necessary in terms of defense, or in times of war. I'm saying the death penalty.
And GOD is not God's real name. PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH. Just google Yahweh. God says this is his name with Moses and the burning bush.
philostophist 4 years ago
Also, if you don't believe that Jesus is God's son AND that Jesus is God himself, I have no interest in debating this topic. The man in Revelation 19:11-21 IS Jesus. Jesus can definitely have a name that "no one knows but himself."
Apparently, "love your enimies" has a deeper meaning then simply "tolerate sin" (and raping and torturing innocent victims is the worst kind of sin)
08pooled 4 years ago
I have no further interest in debating with you either. You don't back up any of your arguments. How is that "Jesus can definitely have a name that 'no one knows but himself.'" No he doesn't. It's Jesus, everyone knows it. Where are you basing this statement from? It is GOD's true name no one knows. Do some research beyond only reading the Bible. (Did you know that "feet" in the Old Testament is a euphemism for genitals? No, I don't think you do.)
philostophist 4 years ago
I've tried to have a good, honest discussion with you, but I suppose that's a lost cause.
Further, I don't know what your trying to prove with this "love your enemies" stuff, which only seems to support my argument, not yours. yes raping and torturing innocent victims is the words kind of sins. Ok. Fine. What do you MEAN by this? Never mind. I don't care anymore. Thank you for your time.
philostophist 4 years ago
then why don't people ask "What would God do?"
I don't know, WWJD is a ctachy phrase among peopl who think they are Christians. Jesus would kill first degree criminals anyways, but beyond that, look at what he did to (and not just Revelation 19:11-21, but look at his "love your enimies" emotions in Matthew 23 and John 2. Pretty intense, huh?)
08pooled 4 years ago
I just read Matthew 23 and John 2. I don't see what you're saying here. Jesus is not killing anybody in these passages. Sure, he's pissed in Matthew 23, calling the Pharisees snakes and vipers.
philostophist 4 years ago
All I'm saying is Would Jesus support the Death Penalty? Would Jesus leave it up to Man to kill another man, to judge another man. I'm sorry, but I will no longer discuss this with you if you still think Jesus would bestow that responsibility on man. BTW, why do you love gore-fest videos? You seemed to be obsessed with violence.
philostophist 4 years ago
"Jesus died over 2000 years ago, but yet he's in the future?"
And according to the beliefs of born again Christians like myself, he rose from the dead (as is recorded in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the first part of Acts).
08pooled 4 years ago
Yes I know he rose from the dead, resurrected. I know he died, descended to Hell, rose from the dead, and finally ascended to Heaven - at least according to the Apostles' Creed. And I do not believe this belief belongs solely to born again Christians, don't all types of Christians - or at least most - believe in Christ's resurrection? Isn't that the foundation of Christianity??
philostophist 4 years ago
These are rhetorical questions. You do not need to further comment unless you reveal something to me that I wouldn't know. Of course I know the belief is that Jesus rose from the dead.
philostophist 4 years ago
"Lastly, you're failing to understand that not everyone believes Jesus=God and God=Jesus. )If so then why don't people ask "What would God do?")"
I have no interest in dealing with people who don't believe that Jesus isn't God's son. I will not to debate with you on this topic any further if you believe that Jesus isn't God's son, but rather a "prophet." If I'm wrong, and Jesus really was a prophet, then this whole WWJD and the death penalty thing doesn't apply to me.
08pooled 4 years ago
I never said that Jesus wasn't God's son. Everyone knows Jesus is God's son. Please Read My Words. What I'm saying is that not everyone believes that God IS Jesus/Jesus IS God, at least not in Genesis - meaning that when you gave an example of Jesus killing in Genesis (when it was really God, way before Jesus ever existed) - not everyone will see it that way. Not everyone will read Genesis and think Jesus is in it and that Jesus is the one who, say, kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah.
philostophist 4 years ago
I understand that Jesus is God in the flesh in the New Testament, but to a lot of people - not in the Old Testament. Speaking of which, I actually watched The Nativity Story last night (a movie that came out recently), it was pretty good.
philostophist 4 years ago
Lastly, you didn't respond to my question: If God IS Jesus, and Jesus IS God - then why don't people ask "What would God do?" (Instead of WWJD)
philostophist 4 years ago
One more thing: it is clearly implied in Rwevelation 19:11-21 that the man on the White horse with the double edged sword is Jesus. No offense, but I think you're a little delusional if you can't see that.
08pooled 4 years ago
First of all...
Delusional: "A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith)."
philostophist 4 years ago
So, if I were you, I'd know what the definition means before using it. Further, If I were you, I would not resort to insulting other people (even if I preface it with "No offense"). It's called respect.
philostophist 4 years ago
Lastly, you're failing to understand that not everyone believes Jesus=God and God=Jesus. )If so then why don't people ask "What would God do?")
Upon reading the passage, I do see how one would think that it is Jesus on the horse. "His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns." The crowns allude to his crown of thorns.
philostophist 4 years ago
However what makes me think it is not Jesus but God Himself is the following, "He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself." As I'm sure you know, there is a belief that no one knows God's true name (although the Jewish people refer to Him as Yahweh, however they never say it - and may I state that the Jewish God in the Old testament is the same God in the New testament).
philostophist 4 years ago
Regardless, we know Jesus died for our sins. Revelations, especially this passage, is apocalyptic (note: NOT the Apocalypse) - meaning taking place towards the end of time. Jesus died over 2000 years ago, but yet he's in the future?
It's possible, I'm not denying that, nor am I denying that you are wrong or "delusional." But I see it as God, or at least the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit) as the Christian idea of God is the Trinity: three entities in One Being.
philostophist 4 years ago
Like Huckabee said: Are we supposed to understand everything in the Bible? No, finite beings will never be able to understand the words of an Infinite being (God).
And to further quote Huckabee, a former Minister, not all of the bible is literal - it is allegorical, metaphorical, etc...
You may disagree, and that is fine. I respect that.
philostophist 4 years ago
And about the politicians: I can't answer that for you. I don't know what they think when they answer simple questions like that (yes or no questions).
08pooled 4 years ago
"Although you state that God and Jesus are one in the same, not everyone believes that, and you need to respect that."
This question "would Jesus support the death penalty" was directed at conservative Christians such as myself. A true conservative Christian believes that Jesus and God or one. It's fine to believe that Jesus and God aren't one, but if that's the case, that paerson can't technically classify himself as a "Christian."
08pooled 4 years ago
"you should also keep in mind that the old testament is a jewish book, not a christian one."
Jewish or Christian, it's in the Bible, so it's applicable. How we interprete it is a whole other story.
08pooled 4 years ago
"And if it is true that Jesus would kill, why can't any of the candidates say it? Or, conversely, why can't they say that he would not kill?"
They are politicians: when do politicains ever answer a question straightforward?
You could also ask them: "did Michigan beat Ohio State this year?" and they would probably give a long, abstract answer that never ends in yes or no.
08pooled 4 years ago
haha so true.
however my point was different. What I meant was either two things:
A) if i'm right, and Jesus would never kill anybody, then why can't they give a straight answer and say "no, Jesus would not support the death sentence?"
B) If you're right, and Jesus would kill and support the death sentence, then why can't they then say, "Yes, Jesus would support the death sentence?"
philostophist 4 years ago
And plus, like I already mentioned, Revelation 19:11-21 is a perfect example of Jesus using the death penalty in action (a pretty brutal one, at that).
He also mentione something about taking a sword out of his mouth and killing people somewhere in Revelation 1.
When it comes to evil, Jesus would get in it's face, just like his father would.
08pooled 4 years ago
Again, you're saying Jesus, but this passage does not mention Jesus. Although you state that God and Jesus are one in the same, not everyone believes that, and you need to respect that.
You don't need to agree, but at least respect other perspectives.
philostophist 4 years ago
"but I do know that jesus is no in the first testament, and therefore not in Genesis. So pardon me if I take what you say with a grain of salt."
Also, consider this: Jesus says throughour Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John that "I and the father (God) are one." In other words, Jesus can speak for God, and God can speak for Jesus. The two can never contradict themselves. Jesus spoke for God in Matthew, Mark, etc, whereas God spoke for Jesus in Genesis 9:6 and Ecclesiastes 3:3.
08pooled 4 years ago
you should also keep in mind that the old testament is a jewish book, not a christian one.
and while you may be right, you're interpretation could be wrong. and i think a significant amount of people would disagree with you, especially the people who wrote the book: Jews.
philostophist 4 years ago
Sorry, bad typo. The below line should say "Jesus wants them to DIE"
08pooled 4 years ago
"If you want to know what Jesus would really do, Jesus would forgive, not kill."
Wrong. Jesus would kill all first degree criminals (see Genesis 9:6 and Ecclesiastes 3:3)
Here's a way Jesus would kill them: He would feed his enemies to the birds of the field (see Revelation 19:11-21)
Yes. Jesus hates first degree criminals. He wants them today. Scripture proves this.
08pooled 4 years ago
perhaps you're correct, but I do know that jesus is no in the first testament, and therefore not in Genesis. So pardon me if I take what you say with a grain of salt.
And if it is true that Jesus would kill, why can't any of the candidates say it? Or, conversely, why can't they say that he would not kill?
philostophist 4 years ago
WWJD?
Jesus would kill them.
08pooled 4 years ago
No he wouldn't.
And may I remind all of you that we're talking about Jesus here, not me, not you, not anybody else.
If you want to know what Jesus would really do, Jesus would forgive, not kill.
Although I don't think we should forgive a person who kills little girls and then says, after getting caught, that he would kill more little girls if he could.
philostophist 4 years ago