Gaza at Home and Abroad, Part 2

[nijaexhile3]

A person dedicated to a philosophy of championing self centeredness and ignoring the the suffering of others shrugs at the slaughter of little kids...shocking.

[zardozcs]

Innocent people do not stand by when their neighbors are throwing grenades at a neighboring country. -- absolutely goddamn right! You vote with your feet or your handgun. If you're caught in a warzone you either flee or take a side.

[nijaexhile3]

Tell me all about the children that were killed in that UN building or the children of the palestinian peace activist that were killed when an isreali tank shelled their home.

"Innocent people do not stand by when their neighbors are throwing grenades at a neighboring country."

I know thats the fantasy that helps you sleep at night. The real world doesnt work like a rambo movie. People who are ACTUALLY innocent die in war.

[sameer9900]

It seem some ppl are speaking as if world revolve around them. What if someone was throwing rocket at you? Excuse me, what if some one was killing your people at Niagara fall. What if some one impose a blockade? When Suez Canal was blocked, Israel attacked Egypt. What do you expect Palestian to do. Sit back and listen to excuse.

[justinwlaurab]

McKeever Rules!

[proffesor02]

Paul, I usually agree with you. But, I am having difficulty here. If Israel is justified at shooting through innocents to defend itself, aren't starving Palestinians also justified at shooting through innocents to defend themselves?

[PaulMcKeever]

Starving has nothing to do with it. The issue is whether Palestinians are defending themselves, or aggressing/sanctioning agression by Hamas. They are agressing and/or sanctionig agression by Hamas: they elected them, they do no combat with Hamas, they SUPPORT Hamas overwhelmingly. Hence: they are not innocent of the attacks by their elected Hamas "government"; they are not defending themselves; rather than are being wupped for initiating force.

[proffesor02]

My understanding is that there was and is a blockade resulting in 1.5 million Palestinians on the edge of starvation, 70% of Palestinian kids are malnourished. A bad guy forcibly confining me and starving me seems roughly equivilant to a bad guy shooting at me... both can result in my death and both can make me violently self-defensive. Maybe you could do a video on self defense to clarify when force is crossing the line... I'm confused.

[PaulMcKeever]

First, if, say, Canada is prevented from obtaining food from the rest of the world, the answer is: do some farming, fishing, hunting, etc.

Second, consider another example of self-defence from the end of last season's "Lost" episode. Bad guy plants bomb on large boat loaded with people. Bomb will blow up if bad guy's heart monitor determines his heart has stopped. Bad guy goes to murder or arrest Ben. Ben kills bad guy in self-defence. Boat blows up, killing maybe hundreds...

[PaulMcKeever]

...Does this change the fact that Ben was defending himself, and Bad Guy was initiating coercion against Ben? Nope. Who murdered the people on the boat? The Bad Guy, not Ben.

Ben=Israel

Bad Guy=Hamas

people on boat=palestinians, many of whom supported Bad Guy and his plan to arrest or kill Ben.

[PaulMcKeever]

One disclaimer: at this point in the Lost story, that's how the facts appear to me, with Bad Guy NOT appearing to be some sort of pro-individualist, pro-freedom force but, rather, some sort of murdering, thieving entity. The story might unfold differently as the show continues to air and that change of context may change my characterization of who is offending, who is defending etc...but, though context provided by LOST is limited, at this point, the example is useful for our purposes here.

[proffesor02]

I don't think I dispute that Israel is acting justly in self defense. If I were an Israeli and rockets threatened my home I would want Gaza carpet bombed, until everyone was dead. On the other hand if I were a Palestinian prevented from trading for food and had no means to feed my children I would consider any means necessary to fix the situation. When the context is survival I would throw in with any ideology ( including statism, or, Islamo-terrorism) that gave me the best chance....

[sameer9900]

I do not think you know how big Gaza is. Gaza is not as big as Canada. It is a very small place. So forget about idea about farming etc. You are writing as if Hamas has killed many of Israeli while Israel only act in self defence by carpet bombing and capturing and using human shield. How about Gazan right to self defence? Since according to you, there are bad guys, they do not hv right for self defence, only to be killed.. Israel use to do same thing PLO before.

[1emart1]

"My understanding is that there was and is a blockade"

Israel does not, as far as I am aware, prevent Gaza from trading with Egypt. The Egyptians opt not to trade with them entirely of their own accord.

Not trading with a given territory is hardly an 'act of agression'. Furthermore, Israel has been providing electricity, water, and other services to the Gaza Strip quite generously. How much more should the support a people who want to kill them?

[1emart1]

"A bad guy forcibly confining me and starving me seems roughly equivilant to a bad guy shooting at me.."

You do understand that the Gaza Strip is not a house, but a territory? And that the residents of this territory want to be considered their own sovereign state? In other words, they WANT to be left alone by Israel?

[1emart1]

I hope you dont mind me responding as well, but how, exactly, is firing rockets at Israeli civilians defending themselves from starvation?

Additionally, Gaza is a territory that was taken from Egypt after Egypt initiated agression against Israel. After being captured, Israel offered the territory back to Egypt, who refused to accept responsibility for taking it back. More recently, Israel unilaterally pulled out settlers from the territory in order to allow Gazans to try and run themselves.

[proffesor02]

I'm not sure whether Isaac, or, Ishmael started this fight. If I'm the school yard teacher it doesn't seem to be that relevant in terms of dispute resolution. I suppose killing Ishmael and all his friend would prevent further conflict.

[1emart1]

"I'm not sure whether Isaac, or, Ishmael started this fight. If I'm the school yard teacher it doesn't seem to be that relevant in terms of dispute resolution"

If you do not know the reason for the fight starting, then your ability to resolve the dispute in the long term is most certainly hampered. If Ishmael suckerpunched Isaac because he was wearing a kippah, for example, then it will be important to be aware of this fact 1) In order to justly resolve the first and 2) prevent furhter ones

[Chrisnoscrub047]

This is the FIRST time I've seen McKeever on this show and disagreed with him. Now, obviously I also disagreed with his debate partner. But his views on innocence, i'm afraid, are a little off.

[Beethovens7th]

How?

Not trying to put words in your mouth, but you might answer, "because the people in Gaza aren't free to resist Hamas or leave whenever they want." Well in that case, yeah, you're right, such people are innocent. However, who, then, is at fault from them being in the line of fire?

[Nelapidae]

There's one of the reasons I'm not very good at debating; as soon as that stupid woman said, "we can't take sides" I would've slapped her right off that chair before I even knew my arm had moved. Moral equivalency is the air true evil breathes and she was pumping it out like it was going out of style.

[PortfolioManager1987]

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[PaulMcKeever]

Dude. That's a hair's breadth from spam. Coming from you though, I'll leave it in.

[PortfolioManager1987]

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[Kurtyoungblood]

"You bomb em'."

[Signofthedollar]

It's sickening that Hamas is calling Israel, Nazis. With their, "We will not be silent.", bs. Israel should shoot rockets back at the enemy. Let Hamas and Hezbulla find out how much fun rockets are. It's too bad the Israeli's seem to have no spine. If it were up to me, I'd put the fear of Allah into those bastards.

[incrediblemulk42]

That was a great analogy with your neighbor bombing buffalo.

[Beethovens7th]

At 5 minutes, she says that Hamas and the Palestinian people are all integrated together, that they can't be separated from one another, THEN she has the gall to call the Palestinian people "innocent."

[SuperFinGuy]

yeah that was surprising lol

[Beethovens7th]

Oh god....this woman....the man calls and identifies the cause of the humanitarian crisis, of the mass civilian deaths, and she goes all "hear no evil see no evil, let's not take sides, let's get peace one way or another!"

[Moragauth]

Apparently, Hamas "is the people". Collectivist nuttiness.