God is a just God but he's also a loving God and the wrath of the unbelievers and wickedness is their punishment to be purify of their carnal sin which is annilated not the person themselves.
The real point Im making without contradiction is those who were unbelievers or knew Christ but turned away still have that chance to enter the kingdom but its just going to be a longer delay in the fire of purity.
With reconciliation, alot of people thinks Jesus died for nothing and didnt pay for our sins but the point is we do not have to commit sin and go through that lake of fire for aions to be clean and reconcile when we all can go straight to the KINGDOM at the first resurrection.
You think the parent going to kill his/her child through annilation or forever punishment in his/her room. No!!!!! It all extend on the child's behavior to believe he or she can and will do better. Thats the same with the Lord.
If a parent had two kids, one came home with A on his report card and the other with an F, likely the parent is going to punish the child with the failing grade and send him to his/her room. But she loved that child so much, they aren't going to let that child be punished forever till he or she gets her grade up to EXCELLENT. That the same with the lake of fire.
@tentmaker777 To those who believe in christian universalism:Jesus Christ ransomed(purchased)all of us from sin and death on the cross(Romans 5:18-19;1Timothy 2:5-6).Everyone now belongs to Christ.But even though he purchased everyone,he purchased us as is(sinners).We still have the stain and filth of sin on us.This must be cleanse from us(1John 1:9).The true meaning of the lake of fire:The lake of fire is not for redeemption.The lake of fire is for cleansing that which is already redeemed!!!
@Tomekwinxs God overcomes Satan and all of his enemies in the lake of fire.But you must remember we were all enemies of God before we became believers.God overcomes his enemies the same way we're suppose to overcome our enemies--with goodness(Romans 12:20-21).God overcomes his enemies(you,me,the wicked)by reconciling them: "For if when we were enemies,we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,much more,being reconciled,we shall be saved by his life."Romans 5:10
@Tomekwinxs Even Satan and the fallen angels will be reconciled through the blood of Jesus Christ:"For it pleased the Father that in him{should all fulness dwell}; And having made peace{through the blood of his cross},by him to reconcile all things unto himself;by him I say,whether they be things in earth,or things in heaven"Colossians 1:19-20. God overcomes his enemies by making friends of them!!! The Bible teaches reconciliation not seperation.
@741rjohnson Those who are reconciled through Christ are those who love Him and Follow Him. Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace will reign through RIGHTEOUSNESS, resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Only by righteousness are those who are reconciled. If you reign in sin you will die. Those who reign in righteousness will be given grace and live. You can't serve two masters.
Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace will reign through RIGHTEOUSNESS, resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The point about people rejecting Jesus when He was on the earth - YES they did but that was BEFORE He walked the earth in His resurrected state. When Jesus rose from the grave, EVERYONE near Him worshipped Him.. We dont read anywhere in the scriptures that He was "rejected" AFTER He had risen.
Isn't the cross sufficient for ALL SIN? Wouldn't that include Hitler? Is Hitler excluded from the Grace of God? no. Aren't we in danger of assuming we "deserve" salvation whilst Hitler does not? Are we not ALL sinners?
The host obviously attempted to steer Gary ... Given a true open forum for public debate(on tv), then the scriptures could be brought more into play and then their traditional indoctrination would really begin to fall apart.
Garry did well ... I wish he had brought up Paul's encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus and doubting Thomas and Jonah in order to show it was always the power of God that caused men to repent. He started along that direction but they where throwing smoke screens and trying to work him over. I also wish Gary had brought up Romans 9 - 11 in answer to those who rejected Christ and why they rejected him. Still, good job Gary, keep up the good work.
@sprice676 Look ... the point is Hitler was little orphan any compared to geezers like Nebuchadnezzar ... People always get hung up on Hitler. Hitler was a loon ... He was a monster ... But so was Saul of Tarsus before his road to Damascus experience ... I wonder did Christ ever appear to Hitler and ask him in person why he was killing hews and Christians like he did for Saul/Paul? Gary was only saying we are all to a large extent products of our environments. Jesus said, love your enemies ,,,
@Tomekwinxs No really. I've seen wonderful reconciliations between Jews and Germans. Another awewark thing is all the Christians Jews killed in the Bolshevik revolution BEFORE WWII that we never hear about. There will be reconciliation there also.
@Tomekwinxs no why continue to sin and have to go through such discpline in the fire when you can be found in the Book of life at the first resurrection.
@Tomekwinxs - do you think those 6 million Jews will care if they are in eternal peace? I suppose that bears the question just how conscious are we in heaven? as I suppose the Jews would hold un-forgiveness towards Hitler. I doubt unforgiveness has any part in heaven.
2:29-3:04 raises a very interesting point. People with knowledge of Christ - who reject him go straight to Hell, whereas people who have never heard of Jesus will first be given a chance - when dead, to accept Him. Is it too much to assume from that logic that God could also extend forgiveness out to all men for all of time? I really don't understand why there is a cut off point for God's forgiveness - which is different according to heart knowledge of him.
@kingfisher64 Those who are in Hell have rejected God's grace. In my mind it's hard to understand why God does things, but nevertheless he is in charge and above our logic. I trust God on every level and I know what ever he does is right. Despite how hard it is for me or you to understand. For God is far beyond our level of conception. You must remember God is perfect and anything outside that will be thrown away from him. But, He did send his son Jesus Christ for all of us!
@Tomekwinxs Adam succeeded in condemning all mankind to death. Anything less than overcoming Adam's act upon all mankind makes Jesus a loser. "And I if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw/drag in Greek all mankind unto Myself." John 12:32. I realize this requires faith and most Christians don't have enough. May He enlarge your faith and your heart to receive it. Peace, Gary
@tentmaker777 Of course The Father draw/drag all men unto him. He love us all, but men also decide not to love the Father. I have many-many atheist friends who hate the Father with a fervent heart. Do you understand what Jesus did for you on the cross? He saved us all, but men can also reject his free gift of life. Yet, the Father continues to draw/drag all men unto him despite there sins. But, the sad thing is, most will reject his free gift. This, they will go to hell. According to the bible.
@Tomekwinxs Many atheists I know are convinced there is no God based upon watching Christians. When I was an atheist, for me, the church was the biggest obstacle for believing. And I bet you might be surprised how many people think there is no god based upon your actions. :-)
@Tomekwinxs 1 Cor 2 ... clearly teaches that the natural person cannot understand the things of the spirit because they are foolishness to them, It is the spirit of Christ that quickens us and renews our minds and hearts so that we produce understanding a faith and all the fruits of the spirit. It is God who works in us to make us desire and do the things that please him (Philip 2:13) ... We are clay in the hand of God, and he hardens whom he will and has mercy on whom ever he will ...
One day every know will bow and tongue confess that Christ is lord, after God has subjected all things to Christ ... Then Gods will for the salvation of all people, and his plan to accomplish just that, will be done on earth even as it is in heaven. God is the savior of all people, most of all those who are now believing. Christ is the word of God and he will accomplish all of Gods desires, he will not return in vain without having accomplished everything the father has sent him to do.
@Tomekwinxs, so if God says its okay to molest children then its okay because he is God? Or if God says its okay to kill your children if they are rebellious then its okay? Or if God says its okay to sell your daughter into slavery, then its okay? Really?
@Tomekwinxs ... You say that torturing most of humanity is okay because God says its okay ... or that the bible tells you that God says its okay. DO you believe torture is a good thing? Do you believe torturing people is holy and righteous and good? Do you believe sustaining people for ever in a constant state of suffering has a purpose other than causing them to suffer for suffering sake? Torture is a perversion worse than rape and molestation. Yet you say god will torture most people for ever.
@Ironmaw1776 I understand your view because I once was in your shoes, but the Holy Spirit opened my eyes. God does not torture people, but came to save the human race from itself. Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you JESUS CHRIST AND THE AMERICAN SOLIDER. One died for your soul. The other died for your freedom. Be thankful that God sent his only Son to die for you.
@Tomekwinxs ... it is I who was once in your shoes. My father was a baptist minister and I was raised all my life believing in hell and everlasting torment of most of humanity. Ask yourself if God came to save humanity from itself, then why does God leave it up to humans to save themselves? Why do most humans never get saved? What you believe is literally a contradiction of terms ...
@Ironmaw1776 Jesus came to save us all. You need to decide who your master is; Sin or Righteousness. God gave us freewill to choose and from freewill comes love and a personal relationship. Have you ever dated a girl before and then get dumped? If you had the power to take her freewill away from her and force her to love you- would you do it? That is why God leaves it up to humans to draw near the Father. Because it's true LOVE. People like you stop people from getting saved.
@Tomekwinxs I appreciate your romantic sentiments, but its a lot of hot air and has not scriptural foundation. Thew Greek philosophy of free will is not a concept to be found anywhere int he bible. There is no such thing as "free will" ... If man had free will then he could chose not to believe in God and there would be no repercussions for that choice. Free will means being free from all consequences and external influences ... God hardens some and he shows mercy and quickens others ...
@Tomekwinxs Your problem is authority and it's so blunt. You don't want anyone telling you what to do or believe. Did your parents lay down laws in there house? Did you choose to obey them? Or did you choose to break them? That's freewill. How about the laws in United States. You break one and you'll get punished. That's freewill. You know the Father is real because it is written on your heart. You choose to harden your heart. He loves you and offers grace despite your insurrection.
@Tomekwinxs It is more than obvious that you believe in the religion of Tomekwinx and not in the Gospel of scriptures. That is fine by me, freedom of religion and all ... Just don't try to sell it as gospel truth. I invite you to actually read the scriptures and stop reading the traditional inspirational literature. Jesus chose us, and revealed himself to us by his spirit, and he is the author and finisher of our faith. Were it not for him we would not believe. It is God that hardens men ...
And it is God who elects some of us, and who predestined and called us for his purpose ... A person dose not chose to believe in God ... A person believe when that person is completely persuaded, and it is God who persuades and convicts mans heart and mind of the truth of the gospel of Christ by the spirit of Christ.
Ephesians 1:4-5 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
@Tomekwinxs , Also to continue your analogy ... Do you torture and murder women who break up with you or who reject you out right? Because that is what you believe God does, that makes him something of a divine stalker right?
Telling someone they can make a free will choice to love you and then telling them if that if they don't they will be tortured and killed is not giving someone free choice, it is using extortion to manipulate them through fear tactics! ... Think about it ...
@Tomekwinxs God does not leave it up to humans to draw near to the Father. God will draw(not force)all men to himself(John 12:32).God will do this through His Love expressed in Power of the Cross(Colossians 1:19-20). When God delivers mankind from the bondage to corruption,everyone will then joyfully give praise to God(Romans 8:20-21; Romans 14:11-12; Philippians 2:10-11: Isaiah 45:21:25).
@Tomekwinxs The Shepard seeks his lost sheep(sinners)until he finds them(Luke 15:4-6).It matters not what road they are on.The prodigal son went down that broad road to destruction(the hog pen).Did not the Father find him?The Father destroyed the self will of the son in the hog pen(judgment).With the son's self will shattered,the son can clearly see the love of his Father as the Father tenderlydraws his son back home.The people in the lake of fire are just like the prodigal. Will they be found?
@Tomekwinxs "He that loveth not knoweth not God;for God is Love.In this{was manifested the love of God toward us},because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world,that we might live through him.Herein is love,not that we loved God,but that he loved us,and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." 1John 4:8-10: If God is Love,and God loves everyone(John 3:16),how will he{manifest his love to those in the lake of fire}?
@Tomekwinxs ... Oh and by the way, i am not charging God with anything, although the parts about selling your daughter into slavery and killing your rebellious children comes straight out of the old testament and was part of the perverted Hebrew law, among many other terrible things that Christ came to set straight by commanding we should love our enemies and bless those who abuse us ...
@Ironmaw1776 Again here you go blaming God for things he has not done. You must understand the time period these people where living in. Far different then today. Today in America we murder babies without consequences. You should see how they kill a little baby after abortion. They rip the head off and then rap it in a bag and throw it away. Yes, many Christian think this is okay, but God does not. Just because Hebrews had laws doesn't mean it was from God. It's only showing us how it was.
@Tomekwinxs I am not blaming God for anything. I understand people do terrible things all the time, my point is that God does not. God overcomes evil with Good, he does not return evil for evil, as the false doctrine of literal hell and eternal damnation teaches. All of Gods judgments are for the purpose of chastising and correcting those who are judged. That's what it means that many will be saved as though by fire(1 Cor. 3:15).
@Ironmaw1776 I completely agree with you, but God will not allow sinners who reject him into heaven. Weather Hell is fire or outer darkness I don't know, but being separated from the Father is Hell and can't be good.
@Tomekwinxs, hell does not exist, the grave exists or sheol/hades, and we all go there, and Gehenna exists - the valley of Hinnom which is just outside the walls of Jerusalem, Jesus used it as an analogy of Gods refining fire which is all consuming and will destroy the carnal nature. No one can reject God when he reveals himself to a person. Gods grace is irresistible, because his spirit quickens us and causes us to become new creatures. In the end all will confess that Christ is lord ...
@Ironmaw1776 Great! then I don't need Christ right now if what you speak is true. This means I can start up my old habits like smoking, having sex with several girls, drink beer, and so much more? I will not be held accountable? Thank you for setting me free.
@Tomekwinxs Oh i see, your one of those Christians who believes you earned salvation by being "good" right? You know because drinking bear and having sex and smoking cigarettes and dancing will send us straight to hell right? I appreciate your idealism, but you will eventually grow up and realize that salvation is a free gift without any strongs attached, and one that you cannot earn by being good or knowing the secret handshake ...
@Ironmaw1776 You completely missed my point. Jesus died for you and I, so that we might receive life. It's by His grace only not by works or being 'good' do we inherit His kingdom. Only those who love the Father will be with Him. Personal relationship with Him. Only the Father draws us to Him by his grace and mercy alone. Only by faith can you please the Father. Those who rejects the Father rejects life. 1 John 5:12
@kingfisher64 Well read 1 Corinthians 2 and you will see that Paul clearly taught that a knowledge of God cam by the quickening of the spirit of Christ. A natural man cannot understand of spiritual things, because they are spiritually discerned, God must first renew our minds and hearts and we must be born again of the spirit in order to produce the gifts and fruits of the spirit, faith being both. It is God who works inside us to make us desire and do what pleases him (Philippians 2:13).
@Tomekwinxs , but most of those Jews didn't believe in Jesus, so they went straight to hell to be tortured for eternity after they were tortured and killed by Hitler, right?
Get the book The Aqua Oracle by Ty Anderson, it is the best book on Universalism I have ever read. You can find it at amazon. Check out the chapter titles of this book, very intense.
The tougher question is if the 6 million Jews, after being tortured and killed, were afterwards thrown into hell for not believing in Jesus? Thats a more relevant question.
@danielthedreamer --Yes and you could also go further then that and ask about the Old Testiment Jews, before Jesus. Did all of them perish in hell because they did not know Jesus? Of course not. Faith was given onto them for believing in the "coming mesiah". Jews had to pray., make sacrifices and do good works before Jesus arrived.......
VERY MUCH SO, lightmane. This hellfire damnation teaching really hardens the hearts and minds of those it possesses. It's like alcoholism, the denial is pretty intense. This pulpitthumper thinks he's a pretty nice dude. He's nicer than the god he peddles. :-)
@tentmaker777 The notion that a loving Father would torture humans in raging fire forever- with no redemptive goal in mind is bewildering. You know, when the Israelites burnt their children in sacrifice to Molech in Jer32, God called it an abomination- something that had never entered into His mind (v35) How can people suppose that God will indulge in the same 'abomination' He rebuked and cursed Judah for? Gehenna stands as a reminder to us of what God thinks about those who practice such evil
1 John 4 verse18 here is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (KJV) Those who constantly fear-monger trying to scare people to church instead of loving them with the love of God simply reveal their hearts are full of fear, or hate or vengeance they are trying to project on God. God is love and love NEVER fails. Why is that so difficult to believe?
@tentmaker777 I read pretty much your latest statements which were more philosophical than biblical: No biblical support for your thought. At this point, what you can do in a short time is read a book on the 5 point of calvinism. The ``all`` has to be taken in context, and God does not contradict itself. Sure, I`d like everybody in Heaven, God also, but God is just. If to enter heaven you need to be born again, then all humanity will have to be born again, which is definitely not the case.
I'm very familiar with Calvinism. So you believe only the "elect" are saved. So why all your preachiness. Whoever is saved is saved no matter how good and bad the elect are. And those damned to Hell are damned no matter what they do. The god of Calvinism is a monster and those who embrace this concept become hard, proud and blind. John Calvin had Michael Servetus burned to death on slow burning green wood simply because Servetus thought differently from Calvin. Calvinism/reformed faith, ugh.
@tentmaker777 I don`t ask you to agree with all that Calvin did. I simply point out the notion of the ``all``. Election is not from Calvin but from the Bible (Eph 1:3-14, Romans 8:28-30). Divine election alongside human responsibility to respond to the gospel. You bluntly close your eyes to scripture to make a God that fits your theology. Just read the book of Jude. It describes the future judgment of apostates and false teachers. It was even prophesied from the time of Enoch! Be Biblical
Your logic is faulty. You start with a false premise that only the elect will be saved and that not all are elect. Therefore all can't be saved. What if the "elect" are the instrument to bring salvation ot the non-elect? Furthermore, God HARDENS ALLL, that includes the elect AND He has mercy UPON ALLLL, that includes those who are not elect. So he hardens all and has mercy upon all, that wipes out your only the elect will be saved. God has a plan, robvello, it would behoove you to find the plan.
@tentmaker777 I return the same compliment. Your argument is philosophical ,not at all in line with scripture.It is important to answer my arguments. One thing is very clear, the apostates and unbelievers in Jude, the epistles of John (I Jn2:18-19) , Peter (2Pet 2:1-20), in Revelation (Rev 20:12-15) are not in Heaven. Conversion is a transfer from the Kingdom of Satan to the Kingdom of God (Rom6, Eph2). One thing is sure, God makes it clear that some are not in heaven (I Tim 1:5-10,Rev22;14)
One thing is pretty clear to me, Jesus is the Savior of the whole world whether you believe it or not. John 4:42, 1 John 4:14, John 12:32, Phil. 2:10, Col. 1:16-20, 1 Tim 4:9-11, Rev. 5:13, 1 Cor. 15:22, etc. etc. Another thing is clear, most Christians are in unbelief. That is why they can't see what is plainly written, just like the scribes, Pharisees, Saduccees and lawyers in Jesus' day. Self-righteousness and pride has blinded most Christians justl ike it blinded the Jews.
@tentmaker777 Christ saves the World (Jew and non Jew) instead of only the Jews. But not all human beings will be in heaven, and this is clear. All men will confess Christ as Lord either as their savior now, or as their judge in the future.Your error is serious because you don`t even understand human history with the line of the serpent, and the line of the messiah (Gen 3:14-16). Anyhow, we both agree that the other is spiritually blind. That`s where it stands. I hope you don`t die today.
I have passed from death to life. You obviously don't read the bible very much or you would have known that. And it is clea to those whose hearts are not crowded with fear, that Jesus will save the entire world. Obviously, it's not clear to you because you talk like a fear monger. And folks, who have followed this thread, God loves you and desires you have a rich life on earth and Jesus is the way, the truth and the life in which you can find that. Don't let fear mongers keep you from Jesus.
@tentmaker777 Good for you. Like Jesus, I make sure that those who needs to be comforted against false accusation be secure in the work of salvation, and warn those who have a false sense of security to come to true knowledge of salvation (Mat 10:38-39). If you came out from the dead, you should have a passion to share the gospel with the lost, not tell them all kinds of fairytales. By not being willing to do that, I come back to the first question: You believed what? and were saved from what?
@tentmaker777 Good for you. Like Jesus, I make sure that those who needs to be comforted against false accusation be secure in the work of salvation, and warn those who have a false sense of security to come to true knowledge of salvation (Mat 10:38-39). If you came out from the dead, you should have a passion to share the gospel with the lost, not tell them all kinds of fairytales. By not being willing to do that, I come back to the first question: You believed what? and were saved from what?
Oh, I tell them all sorts of wonderful things that God has done for me and what He has saved me from. My testimony can be found at the Tentmaker Ministries site under the topic of testimonials under the name Gary Amirault. The wages of sin is death, NOT eternal torment. So he saved me from death. He healed me of alcoholism. He gave me His life, love, joy, peace, miracles. He opened my blind eyes and ears. He gave me hope. He gave me a life worth living. My security is in HIM, not in myself.
@tentmaker777 OK. I think it is more reformation than regeneration, but I will not judge. Honestly, I am happy that Christ changed your life, and you can see hope in Him: It is totally true. Here is the issue, the wage of sin is death physical...but definitely spiritual, and ultimately eternal. That`s the whole point of the gospel, and why it is such a ``good news``. When Adam and Eve sinned, they did not die physically, but spiritually. They were chased from the Garden.
@tentmaker777 Jn 16:13-14. To answer your question, Yes, I am happy for a meaning of your life in Christ. But you need to understand that salvation is from spiritual and eternal death, Hell, and that all the warnings in the Sermon in the Mount and during Christ Ministry were for people to be broken, feel their lostness, and come as beggars in Spirit to embrace God`s salvation (Lk19:10).Christ save the sinners (Rom 5:6-10), and the lost (Lk 19:10). Christ `s harshness was for the self righteous
@tentmaker777 If you go forward, read the gospel or the beginning of Acts, when after Peter preached Pentecost sermon (Acts 2:1-42), how these Jews had their heart pierced (convicted of their sin), and the fact that the resurrected Christ was now their judge..how they got converted by faith and repentance (Acts 2:42), and the new joy they found in the forgiveness of their sins. Christ came to forgive sins, and he does it through the gospel, the Holy Spirit convicts, and people get regenerated.
Yeah, when God convicts you and begins to remove the crud and fills you with His life, that is wonderful. Remember, it is the GOODNESS of God that leads to live, not sticking one's nose in their crap forever and ever. I am a NEW creation In CHRIST and I know it. And I didn't have to be dangled over a lake of fire to be that new Creation. He just gave me the Faith of Christ and I cried Abba Father. No one comes to the Father unless the Father draws Him. How many did the Father give him? Hmmm?
@tentmaker777 I corrected your statement that you are saved only from physical death.Salvation results in a true Love for Christ and the things of God.God gave the elect to Christ. Christ compares the unbelieving World to those the Father gave Him.(Jn 17).The sacrifice of Christ could have saved all human (God`s side of salvation), but most men chose not to believe and trust Him for their salvation. So, Yes, Hell exists, was never for anybody else than the devil, but will be full of people
The issue is not about the level of evil in someone. We are all inherently evil, and even the best of man is not enough for forgiveness of sins. Christ accomplished all that was necessary to bring any man who repents and trust in Him for salvation...but not all will receive Him and be born again. So, Helle who was first created for the Devil and his angels, will also be filled with all unbelievers in History (Hitler will not be alone) (Mat 25:41) Revelation is filled with image judgment
How do you KNOW without a shadow of doubt that your repented right AND REALLY put your trust in Him. I know of pastors and church leaders, who preached for many years losing their faith dying as atheists. How do YOU know that won't happen to you? How do you know you are getting the "right" doctrine to keep you on the straight and narrow. Remember NARROW is the gate that leads to life. How do YOU know your pride isn't fooling you? Maybe your closet is full of skeletons reading for judgment.
@tentmaker777 In the facts, I can see a different life and new affections. You are right, narrow is the gate and straight the path (Mat 7;13-14). First, someone has to understand the fundamentals of the Gospel, and not feel good belief. An honest confession of Jesus (Savior) Christ (King, Lord God) and a commitment to follow Him is enough (Eph 2:8-9)...but there will be a proof in new works produced in Christ(Eph 2;10). Finally, God-Christ will keep all those who trusted in Him (Jn 10:28-30)
So how do YOU know that you truly trusted Him enough to "be saved?" What if your heart is full of pride and self-righteousness and YOU were actually like the Pharisees and too blind to see it? How can you be sure of your salvation seeing that you think most of mankind is going to rot in Hell. Look in the mirror and ask God, Is this pride looking at me or true humility.
@tentmaker777 I think that all your questions are based more on ``unbelief``` than evaluating scripture. First, we are all proud and lost by nature. So, confessing Christ as Lord and savior, like beggars is already the first step to true salvation (Mat5:3). Humility of heart is a condition and a result of true faith (Mat 5:3-5), but God takes care of making christians more and more humble through trials (Rom5:3-5). In fact the roots of the greek word for humiliation and humility are the same.
You are right, it is a matter of faith, but who's faith, yours or Jesus' faith? I believe the Bible tells us we cannot even believe without the "faith of Christ" so that we cannot boast in ourselves. The author and finisher of MY faith is Jesus Christ. I realize most Christians have faith in their own faith. That usually turns one into a self-righteous Pharisee.
@tentmaker777 I think that you have to ask yourself if you believe in Christ. And if you have uncertainty about your faith, what is the cause? Do you have concerns about the Bible? Jesus Christ being the only way of Salvation, and/or being the very God? Other religions being right? If you have an honest doubt, that`s what we need to talk about. The Devil loves to make even good intentioned believer doubt of their faith;He is the adversary(Satan), the slanderer(Devil), accusing even the elect.
Robvello, I'm talking about YOU, not me. What makes YOU so sure that you are saved. The Pharisees were certain they were righteous and street sinners were not. But they were wrong. THEY trusted in the fact they thought they were right with God but they weren't. YOU seem to think you are right with God. What if it's only your pride telling you this? Could pride and self-righteousness be blinding you?
@tentmaker777 If you are a christian you should know the answer. But I will answer. My assurance does not rest on my opinion of myself but on what the Bible says and confirms (Rom 8:1, 10:9-10, I Jn 5:11-13). Here lies my questions to you. I trust Christ as the only savior (Jn14:6), the Bible as inerrant (2Tim 3:16) and true (Jn 17:17). For the moment you speak like an atheist or an agnostic, and not a christian.
Your Bible is inerrant? Which translation is that? I sure would like to have a copy of an "inerrant" Bible. What do you think of this? 1 Tim 4:9-11. What does that say in your Bible? That Jesus is the savior of only those that believe? Or that He is the savior of all? How does your "inerrant" translation read?
@tentmaker777 OK, so now I see. First inerrance is with the original texts (Hebrew OT, Greek NT). If you have doubts on that you can`t be a christian. By the way, christianity starts with being born again (Jn 3;3). Are you? If not, it is like a dark book. On I Tim 4:9-11, who does refer ``all``? All humans or all elects(christians)? Then, we even have a question on the word `savior`` (soter) which can mean `deliverer or savior``. Knowing that there will be people in Hell (Mat 25:41-46) suite
So do you have the "original texts?" Yes, I have been born from above. You missed the whole point of 1 Tim 4:8-11, it says He's the savior of BOTH, unbelievers and believers. The WHOLE WORLD. Why did you miss that? Tell me, if Jesus had all power and authority to save all mankind and actually did so, would you have a problem with that? And which would glorify God most, that most of mankind rots in Hell or that He actually saves all? Which brings Him more glory?
@tentmaker777 God is a savior/deliverer for all men in that He is good to all men(universal) as a Creator (Mat 5:43-45), but especially to believers (I Tim 4:11) because He is their Father and Savior. Christianity is a relationship with the savior. That most people will reject the gospel is a fact verifiable every day, because they choose THEIR life (Mat7:13-16, Jn 3:16-21), God desires all men to come to faith, but man has free will to reject the message, and many do. Universalism is..devilish
Gee, isn't that amazing. Unversalism, which Paul the apostle taught, is "devilish." Hmmm. It glorifies God FAR more than teaching most of mankind is going to be tortured in a place created by God, and yet you say universalism is devilish. Seems to me, the teaching that most of mankind will rot in Hell glorifies the devil and dishonors Jesus and His Father. I'd have to say you have been seduced by the Father of lies. God more than 'desires" to save all mankind, He WILL save all mankind. :-)
@tentmaker777 Simple question:Who is the authority, you or the Bible?You can`t isolate one passage to justify your theology. That`s why, Paul agonized defending the gospel against false doctrine and preached the gospel. Not all will repent and believe (Acts 2:42-46). First, you need to come to terms on why Hell exist. Then the provision of the work of Christ. Unless you can`t read (Rev 20:12-15) or are blind,you don`t have any basis, and are bringing an heresy.Rather be converted and evangelize
I have about six feet of Bible translations on my shelves that do not contain the concept of a Hell of everlasting punishment from cover to cover. I have Hebrew and Greek texts and there is no Hell in them. The Jews don't believe in Hell, it's not in the O.T. Most of the early Church Fathers didn't believe in the Hell you believe in. I find MANY verses in YOUR own translation that plainly teach universal salvation, but you have to twist them to conform to your tradition. Jesus saves all, believe
@tentmaker777 Are you sure that you are reading a Bible? The terms gehenna, fire and brimstone, gnashing of teeth, lake of fire, eternal judgment, eternal fire, etc....it`s all in the Bible. Second, God (and definitely I) does not want people to be self deceived and believe that they can reject the gospel, live like if God does not exist, Christ has no authority on their lives, and think that God will all forget that and go to heaven. Christ did his part. Salvation is AVAILABLE to all men
gehenna is the city dump filled with fire and worms. Today gehenna is a garden. gnashing of teeth, nice way to say angry. Eternal judgment? See articles on aion at the Tentmaker Ministries site under Scholars Corner, Lake of fire, see lake of fire article at Scholars Corner at tentmaker ministries, brimstone see youtube channel tentmaker777 and what tested in the lake of fire
@tentmaker777 You are lost, as lost can be. First, start studying from solid theological tools. I suppose that you even master greek and hebrew. You WANT to believe a lie, that`s exactly the Spirit of AntiChrist,and you will believe anybody who want to tell you what you want to believe.Sure, gehenna was a dumpsite, but Christ used it as analogy for hell.Even the Jews understood.There is not much time to lose. I gave you plenty of verses already.Christ WARNED of the wrath to come (Mat 10:36-37)
I use VERY good theological tools and I believe Jesus is the Savior of the world because Jesus says so, the Greek says so, early church fathers who knew the Greek says so and my heart that Jesus won 25 years ago says so. I think that's enough witnesses. And Jesus' Father says so. He gave all things into Jesus' hands and Jesus saif of all the Father gave Him He would love NONE. You are in unbelief and denigrate the name of Jesus by being so.
@tentmaker777 I don`t want people to fry in Hell, so I don`t flatter them telling them that all is OK, when it is not. Love is giving them the truth, that all men are lost by nature (Rom 1:18-31, 3:23, 6:23), God sent His son to save Sinners (Rom 5:6-8), and that by recognizing your own lostness depravity, inability to save yourself by your own works, and embracing the grace and Love of Christ, you CAN and WILL be saved. You exchange your life for His. He becomes your Lord and Savior.That`s Love
God is Love that never fails for who nothing is impossible. You teach that He created a place in which He sends most to burn forever. THAT is a lie. So when you make God appear worse than Satan, people will not want anything to do with Him. God is love. Do loving parents torture their children endlessly? Come on, man, it's ok to think. "Let us reason together."
@tentmaker777 You are a liar in denying what is plainly written. You don`t understand the gospel.You are not a christian, and are a fraud. I gave you plenty of explanation on God`s love sending His Son, but you want only an easy way in the kingdom, or who knows bring all those you know who are right now in Hell and which you can`t bring back. Take care of the living, and be sure to answer for your own life first.
Look at your answer. You say I want an easy way in the kingdom yet it is you who say all a person has to do is say a few words. Talk about easy. You call me a liar, not a Christian and a fraud. I think Jesus said a few things about people who do things like that. But heck, some folks are just Christians in name, words, empty words. Glad you're finally showing your true colors robvello.
@tentmaker777 By the way, Gospel (evanggelion) means ``good news``. There is no good news of forgiveness and salvation unless someone accepts the bad news of lostness, and being on their way to Hell.False teachers try to deceive and flatter people in believing a false gospel (I Thess 2:4-8, 2 Cor 4:1-3). Nobody has to go to Hell, but men choose naturally to close their eyes to the Gospel.It`s not gonna fly if people don`t rpent Heb. 2:1-3, 10:31-39.. Now is the PATIENCE , not when Christ returns
The King James Bible says that God WILL have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. You can take that to the bank, sir. But you don't believe it. Why? Because you've been deceived by the Deceiver and you do NOT glorify God with your unbelief. And I, if I am lifted up from the eath, will draw all mankind unto myself. John 12 verse 32. Oh, ye of so little faith, why do you doubt? Stop glorifying the devil.
@tentmaker777 What does ``all`` refer in these passages? That`s a theological question. ``All kinds of men ``(exactly what happend with the church, Jews-Gentiles) or ``all men``(every human being ever existed). The first one is conclusive. The second one is in contradiction with most of the Bible. Again, there is no debate because you don`t even understand the gospel, the parables of wheat and tares, the 4 soils, the unjust servant, and most of the epistles, and church history.
Col. 1 verses 16 through 20 makes it plain who the all are. Jesus saves all, but you don't want to believe it? Why? Who would you like to see tortured forever and ever? You got some enemies you'd like to fry?
So God created Satan, self and sin to win most of mankind. What a dumb or careless God. No wonder most of the world is not interested in the traditional Gospel of fear. God is love. Should you ever really experience that love, you would discover your foolish teachings need to be trashed.
@tentmaker777 No need to answer. But let`s say that my life as a Christian has been long enough and proven enough . Instead of asking questions like an atheist (which would be understandable if you don`t have a clue on true christianity), tell me if you have a doubt on any of the premices of Christian faith (Jesus, Bible, Justification by faith, Perseverance of the saints, Sola Fide,etc). If there is an element which you are concerned, we can speak, if not, I don`t have time justifying my faith
I have a problem with folks scaring sincere people using "traditions of men which make the word of God of no effect." The Bible tells me that NOTHING is Impossible with God and the His love NEVER fails. What don't you understand about that? YOu have most of mankind being tortured forever. Gee, I think that makes God look worse than Hitler.
@tentmaker777 You are right that being a church leader means nothing. Salvation is not based on an intellectual creed. The Pharisees hated Christ. There will be tons of apostates (Abandon the faith) in the history of the church, and false teachers, some for believing a false system near true christianity(JW, LDS, Cath., etc), but some because they were ALWAYS outside salvation while being professors (2nd and 3rd soils in the parable of the soils, tares). 2Pet 2:1-20, I Tim 4:1-4, 2Tim 4, Jude
My, my, you make God look like such a wimp and fool. Why, I think you could probably save more than the God you've been brainwashed into believing in. Why not bring Glory to God. You're scenario is so pathetic. A reasonable person wouldn't swallow the line you have been hooked on. Glorify God, not Satan. You make Satan more powerful than God.
3:51 - that's in the physical Walls. People will ALWAYS reject what they don't understand and CAN'T assimilate. There are probably hundreds of people that saw Christ and simply thought "This guy has a hidden agenda - I don't know what it is - but i don't like it - it refutes "my" religious ideas and traditions. Do those people deserve to "go to Hell"? Gimme a break.
Thank you Lord for going out and finding ALL the lost sheep. Even those as insane and evil as Hitler. May your perfect love transform ALL of us - even if it happens on the other side of this life. Thank you Lord!
Read "The Fire That Consumes" written by Edward Fudge. He argues for annihilationism (i.e. no eternal torment...which seems to make God a monster...but yes to the idea of eternal destruction. the notion of an immortal soul is Greek, not Biblical
The "is Hitler going to heaven" question is a huge distraction. The moderator clearly saw his guy wasn't doing so well, so tossed in a few red herrings. I'm not a universalist but what a joke the host turned the debate into ...."making an excuse for Hitler. right. Snarky shot. The Universalist kept going to scripture...the host and the evangelical guy kept going to philosophy...and dodges.
(I'm actually not ----yet----a Universalist....but this debate tilts me that way!)
@fightluv You're trying to say because everyone repents, we don't need to know about repentence? How would anyone know about repentence?
AJudge wrote to 1000 death row convicts telling them that if they did not have an authentic change (repentence) then they would be friedon the chair. The convicts eventually end up repenting before it's to late, and the judge never has to fry them.
Why would the judge write that letter if they all get out?
Ok, I'm sure you've "repented" of sin. So do you still sin? So that makes you worse than a heathen, doesn't it? Because you've tasted of the heavenly gift and then go back to the pigpen. So who's the worst sinner, one who knows better and still sins or one who doesn't know his left hand from the right. As to Abnormalbob, what are you doing messing with a site like that? Hmmmm?
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
We live in an age of time where Christians call themselfs "Calvanists" or "Arminians"
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to bring back to a former state of agreement and concord all things unto himself, by him I say whether they they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Why does Paul say whether they be things in earth, or things in "heaven"
Well, Revelation speaks of a war in the heavens. What heavens, is hard to say. Paul speaks of having gone to the "third" heaven. I don't know how he broke the heavens apart. I guess there is the natural sky, then the heavens beyond and then the realm of the Spirit which is another heavens.
In a post you sent that I got via email but can't find here for some reason (are you spamming or something) you said that I was really quite impossible. Don't give me such high esteem. With GOD all things are possible and "Love never fails." You simply have very little faith. True Christians believe the impossible for you see salvation is all God. But you can't see that because you trust in your "faith" instead of the Faith of Christ.
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Greek meanings
PEACE is: eijrhnopoievw, which means to make peace, to establish harmony.
RECONCILE is: Apokatallasso, which means to bring back a former state of harmony
HARMONY is: harmonía, meaning "joint, agreement, concord" from the verb HARMOZO which means to "TO FIT TOGETHER, TO JOIN
Well, you migh be the exception. Anyone who would call a paraphrase a "great reference" can't be much into serious study. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will DRAG all mankind unto myself." John 12:32 Go look it up in a Bible "reference" book. All, in this verse means ALLLLLLLLL. :-)
You don't even know what Christ was talking about. You take scripture out of it's context. It's obvious you don't examine it throughly. No where does God say people will in defenitely go to hell. All it says was not to fear mankind, for mankind can only kill the body that will cease once it's dead. but he said to fear God the father because he can destroy body and mind.
And if you read the whole chapter, you would know that Jesus was talking to his disciples about not fearing the future
You keep on using the word atone for verses that never used it. How much more dense can you get? You ignore clear verses in the Bible that declare that God will save everyone. Then you try to use scripture and make it sound in favor of your views. Like this one,
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Where does that say that 100 percent people will be in hell?
@TheOkstate2012 I never said 100% of people will be in Hell. When the physical body dies you go to judgment. Just because we pray for people doesn't mean they will be saved, they can be saved, it's ultimately up to God. Do you know what arrogance even is? You accuse me of being arrogant yet you don't even know the definition. Personal attacks don't work my friend. You said no-one will go to Hell? Personally I don't even know what you believe. It's definitely not Christianity though.
@sports444life You just thrown blank accusations without refuting why I am wrong. You just through in random verses that don't make any sense. If you examined the scripture with scrutiny you would come to a reasonable conclusion that most of what I have been saying has a lot of merit. Show me where it says johnas repented. How can you read a scripture and say it means something else then it simply does? And actually no mortal body is in heaven. No one does until Christ's return. Good luck.
@TheOkstate2012 Obviously we don't agree, and your viewpoint on Christianity ( i'm still not sure what it is) is skewed. I have one more question for you, what happens to everyone if they don't all go to Heaven?
@sports444life Well if I'm wrong they either go burn forever in hell, or God just kills their body and soul.
Look, I'm not saying that people who are not saved are going to heaven. I don't deny the condemnation that God says will happen if you are not saved. BUT
What I am saying is that God has already saved us before we even knew he would. Which is everyone!
@TheOkstate2012 Well the first one is backed by scripture, not so much the latter. It's not really making sense to me what you are saying. You don't deny condemnation if people aren't saved, yet everyone is saved so there is no condemnation? I agree that God has given the opportunity for us to be "saved", however as I said it's a choice whether we accept it or reject it. To have peace and harmony evil must be done away with, since evil exists. To reconcile is what God will do on his 2nd coming.
I'm sorry, but this just gives me a headache.
watchthefaithrain 3 weeks ago
God is a just God but he's also a loving God and the wrath of the unbelievers and wickedness is their punishment to be purify of their carnal sin which is annilated not the person themselves.
MrPaulryan76 1 month ago
The real point Im making without contradiction is those who were unbelievers or knew Christ but turned away still have that chance to enter the kingdom but its just going to be a longer delay in the fire of purity.
MrPaulryan76 1 month ago
With reconciliation, alot of people thinks Jesus died for nothing and didnt pay for our sins but the point is we do not have to commit sin and go through that lake of fire for aions to be clean and reconcile when we all can go straight to the KINGDOM at the first resurrection.
MrPaulryan76 1 month ago
You think the parent going to kill his/her child through annilation or forever punishment in his/her room. No!!!!! It all extend on the child's behavior to believe he or she can and will do better. Thats the same with the Lord.
MrPaulryan76 1 month ago
If a parent had two kids, one came home with A on his report card and the other with an F, likely the parent is going to punish the child with the failing grade and send him to his/her room. But she loved that child so much, they aren't going to let that child be punished forever till he or she gets her grade up to EXCELLENT. That the same with the lake of fire.
MrPaulryan76 1 month ago
So that mean Satan will be in heaven again and be leader of the angels?
Tomekwinxs 2 months ago
@Tomekwinxs Actually, the scriptures make it plain that Jesus will be first and foremost of all things including Angels.
tentmaker777 2 months ago
@tentmaker777 To those who believe in christian universalism:Jesus Christ ransomed(purchased)all of us from sin and death on the cross(Romans 5:18-19;1Timothy 2:5-6).Everyone now belongs to Christ.But even though he purchased everyone,he purchased us as is(sinners).We still have the stain and filth of sin on us.This must be cleanse from us(1John 1:9).The true meaning of the lake of fire:The lake of fire is not for redeemption.The lake of fire is for cleansing that which is already redeemed!!!
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@Tomekwinxs God overcomes Satan and all of his enemies in the lake of fire.But you must remember we were all enemies of God before we became believers.God overcomes his enemies the same way we're suppose to overcome our enemies--with goodness(Romans 12:20-21).God overcomes his enemies(you,me,the wicked)by reconciling them: "For if when we were enemies,we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,much more,being reconciled,we shall be saved by his life."Romans 5:10
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@741rjohnson So all the wicked will be saved through Christ, but not the fallen angels?
Tomekwinxs 2 months ago
@Tomekwinxs Even Satan and the fallen angels will be reconciled through the blood of Jesus Christ:"For it pleased the Father that in him{should all fulness dwell}; And having made peace{through the blood of his cross},by him to reconcile all things unto himself;by him I say,whether they be things in earth,or things in heaven"Colossians 1:19-20. God overcomes his enemies by making friends of them!!! The Bible teaches reconciliation not seperation.
741rjohnson 2 months ago
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@741rjohnson Those who are reconciled through Christ are those who love Him and Follow Him. Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace will reign through RIGHTEOUSNESS, resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Only by righteousness are those who are reconciled. If you reign in sin you will die. Those who reign in righteousness will be given grace and live. You can't serve two masters.
Tomekwinxs 2 months ago
Romans 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace will reign through RIGHTEOUSNESS, resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Tomekwinxs 2 months ago
I wanna see the interview at the end. Forget these guys
AbuBishir 2 months ago
The point about people rejecting Jesus when He was on the earth - YES they did but that was BEFORE He walked the earth in His resurrected state. When Jesus rose from the grave, EVERYONE near Him worshipped Him.. We dont read anywhere in the scriptures that He was "rejected" AFTER He had risen.
jvsm1971 3 months ago
Isn't the cross sufficient for ALL SIN? Wouldn't that include Hitler? Is Hitler excluded from the Grace of God? no. Aren't we in danger of assuming we "deserve" salvation whilst Hitler does not? Are we not ALL sinners?
jvsm1971 3 months ago
The host obviously attempted to steer Gary ... Given a true open forum for public debate(on tv), then the scriptures could be brought more into play and then their traditional indoctrination would really begin to fall apart.
Ironmaw1776 4 months ago
Garry did well ... I wish he had brought up Paul's encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus and doubting Thomas and Jonah in order to show it was always the power of God that caused men to repent. He started along that direction but they where throwing smoke screens and trying to work him over. I also wish Gary had brought up Romans 9 - 11 in answer to those who rejected Christ and why they rejected him. Still, good job Gary, keep up the good work.
Ironmaw1776 4 months ago
The Universalist had me until he blamed Hitler's actions on his childhood. That was the perfectly WRONG way to begin his argument.
sprice676 4 months ago
@sprice676 Look ... the point is Hitler was little orphan any compared to geezers like Nebuchadnezzar ... People always get hung up on Hitler. Hitler was a loon ... He was a monster ... But so was Saul of Tarsus before his road to Damascus experience ... I wonder did Christ ever appear to Hitler and ask him in person why he was killing hews and Christians like he did for Saul/Paul? Gary was only saying we are all to a large extent products of our environments. Jesus said, love your enemies ,,,
Ironmaw1776 4 months ago
This Year's Nominee for Impartial Referee: LEE STROBEL!
chefshitpiece 4 months ago
Another tougher question is if Hitler is in eternal heaven, then that means he is with 6 million Jews he killed?? Really awkward.
Tomekwinxs 5 months ago
@Tomekwinxs No really. I've seen wonderful reconciliations between Jews and Germans. Another awewark thing is all the Christians Jews killed in the Bolshevik revolution BEFORE WWII that we never hear about. There will be reconciliation there also.
tentmaker777 5 months ago
@tentmaker777 I doubt that. Also this mean I can continue with my sin and die with them and still go to heaven??
Tomekwinxs 5 months ago
@Tomekwinxs no why continue to sin and have to go through such discpline in the fire when you can be found in the Book of life at the first resurrection.
MrPaulryan76 1 month ago
@Tomekwinxs lol, good point!
bandcreator28 5 months ago
@Tomekwinxs - do you think those 6 million Jews will care if they are in eternal peace? I suppose that bears the question just how conscious are we in heaven? as I suppose the Jews would hold un-forgiveness towards Hitler. I doubt unforgiveness has any part in heaven.
kingfisher64 4 months ago
2:29-3:04 raises a very interesting point. People with knowledge of Christ - who reject him go straight to Hell, whereas people who have never heard of Jesus will first be given a chance - when dead, to accept Him. Is it too much to assume from that logic that God could also extend forgiveness out to all men for all of time? I really don't understand why there is a cut off point for God's forgiveness - which is different according to heart knowledge of him.
kingfisher64 4 months ago
@kingfisher64 Those who are in Hell have rejected God's grace. In my mind it's hard to understand why God does things, but nevertheless he is in charge and above our logic. I trust God on every level and I know what ever he does is right. Despite how hard it is for me or you to understand. For God is far beyond our level of conception. You must remember God is perfect and anything outside that will be thrown away from him. But, He did send his son Jesus Christ for all of us!
Tomekwinxs 4 months ago
@Tomekwinxs Adam succeeded in condemning all mankind to death. Anything less than overcoming Adam's act upon all mankind makes Jesus a loser. "And I if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw/drag in Greek all mankind unto Myself." John 12:32. I realize this requires faith and most Christians don't have enough. May He enlarge your faith and your heart to receive it. Peace, Gary
tentmaker777 4 months ago
@tentmaker777 Of course The Father draw/drag all men unto him. He love us all, but men also decide not to love the Father. I have many-many atheist friends who hate the Father with a fervent heart. Do you understand what Jesus did for you on the cross? He saved us all, but men can also reject his free gift of life. Yet, the Father continues to draw/drag all men unto him despite there sins. But, the sad thing is, most will reject his free gift. This, they will go to hell. According to the bible.
Tomekwinxs 4 months ago
@Tomekwinxs Many atheists I know are convinced there is no God based upon watching Christians. When I was an atheist, for me, the church was the biggest obstacle for believing. And I bet you might be surprised how many people think there is no god based upon your actions. :-)
tentmaker777 4 months ago
@Tomekwinxs 1 Cor 2 ... clearly teaches that the natural person cannot understand the things of the spirit because they are foolishness to them, It is the spirit of Christ that quickens us and renews our minds and hearts so that we produce understanding a faith and all the fruits of the spirit. It is God who works in us to make us desire and do the things that please him (Philip 2:13) ... We are clay in the hand of God, and he hardens whom he will and has mercy on whom ever he will ...
Ironmaw1776 4 months ago
One day every know will bow and tongue confess that Christ is lord, after God has subjected all things to Christ ... Then Gods will for the salvation of all people, and his plan to accomplish just that, will be done on earth even as it is in heaven. God is the savior of all people, most of all those who are now believing. Christ is the word of God and he will accomplish all of Gods desires, he will not return in vain without having accomplished everything the father has sent him to do.
Ironmaw1776 4 months ago
@Ironmaw1776 AMEN.
jvsm1971 3 months ago
@Tomekwinxs, so if God says its okay to molest children then its okay because he is God? Or if God says its okay to kill your children if they are rebellious then its okay? Or if God says its okay to sell your daughter into slavery, then its okay? Really?
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
@Ironmaw1776 Why would you charge God of such things? Why would you ask those dumb questions.
Tomekwinxs 3 months ago
@Tomekwinxs ... You say that torturing most of humanity is okay because God says its okay ... or that the bible tells you that God says its okay. DO you believe torture is a good thing? Do you believe torturing people is holy and righteous and good? Do you believe sustaining people for ever in a constant state of suffering has a purpose other than causing them to suffer for suffering sake? Torture is a perversion worse than rape and molestation. Yet you say god will torture most people for ever.
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
@Ironmaw1776 I understand your view because I once was in your shoes, but the Holy Spirit opened my eyes. God does not torture people, but came to save the human race from itself. Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you JESUS CHRIST AND THE AMERICAN SOLIDER. One died for your soul. The other died for your freedom. Be thankful that God sent his only Son to die for you.
Tomekwinxs 3 months ago
@Tomekwinxs ... it is I who was once in your shoes. My father was a baptist minister and I was raised all my life believing in hell and everlasting torment of most of humanity. Ask yourself if God came to save humanity from itself, then why does God leave it up to humans to save themselves? Why do most humans never get saved? What you believe is literally a contradiction of terms ...
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
@Ironmaw1776 Jesus came to save us all. You need to decide who your master is; Sin or Righteousness. God gave us freewill to choose and from freewill comes love and a personal relationship. Have you ever dated a girl before and then get dumped? If you had the power to take her freewill away from her and force her to love you- would you do it? That is why God leaves it up to humans to draw near the Father. Because it's true LOVE. People like you stop people from getting saved.
Tomekwinxs 3 months ago
@Tomekwinxs I appreciate your romantic sentiments, but its a lot of hot air and has not scriptural foundation. Thew Greek philosophy of free will is not a concept to be found anywhere int he bible. There is no such thing as "free will" ... If man had free will then he could chose not to believe in God and there would be no repercussions for that choice. Free will means being free from all consequences and external influences ... God hardens some and he shows mercy and quickens others ...
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
@Tomekwinxs Your problem is authority and it's so blunt. You don't want anyone telling you what to do or believe. Did your parents lay down laws in there house? Did you choose to obey them? Or did you choose to break them? That's freewill. How about the laws in United States. You break one and you'll get punished. That's freewill. You know the Father is real because it is written on your heart. You choose to harden your heart. He loves you and offers grace despite your insurrection.
Tomekwinxs 3 months ago
@Tomekwinxs It is more than obvious that you believe in the religion of Tomekwinx and not in the Gospel of scriptures. That is fine by me, freedom of religion and all ... Just don't try to sell it as gospel truth. I invite you to actually read the scriptures and stop reading the traditional inspirational literature. Jesus chose us, and revealed himself to us by his spirit, and he is the author and finisher of our faith. Were it not for him we would not believe. It is God that hardens men ...
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
And it is God who elects some of us, and who predestined and called us for his purpose ... A person dose not chose to believe in God ... A person believe when that person is completely persuaded, and it is God who persuades and convicts mans heart and mind of the truth of the gospel of Christ by the spirit of Christ.
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
@Ironmaw1776 I completely Agree:
Ephesians 1:4-5 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Tomekwinxs 3 months ago
@Tomekwinxs , Also to continue your analogy ... Do you torture and murder women who break up with you or who reject you out right? Because that is what you believe God does, that makes him something of a divine stalker right?
Telling someone they can make a free will choice to love you and then telling them if that if they don't they will be tortured and killed is not giving someone free choice, it is using extortion to manipulate them through fear tactics! ... Think about it ...
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
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741rjohnson 2 months ago
@Tomekwinxs God does not leave it up to humans to draw near to the Father. God will draw(not force)all men to himself(John 12:32).God will do this through His Love expressed in Power of the Cross(Colossians 1:19-20). When God delivers mankind from the bondage to corruption,everyone will then joyfully give praise to God(Romans 8:20-21; Romans 14:11-12; Philippians 2:10-11: Isaiah 45:21:25).
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@741rjohnson But most will no be in heaven. Path is narrow to heaven and wide the path to destruction.
Tomekwinxs 2 months ago
@Tomekwinxs The Shepard seeks his lost sheep(sinners)until he finds them(Luke 15:4-6).It matters not what road they are on.The prodigal son went down that broad road to destruction(the hog pen).Did not the Father find him?The Father destroyed the self will of the son in the hog pen(judgment).With the son's self will shattered,the son can clearly see the love of his Father as the Father tenderlydraws his son back home.The people in the lake of fire are just like the prodigal. Will they be found?
741rjohnson 2 months ago
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@Tomekwinxs "He that loveth not knoweth not God;for God is Love.In this{was manifested the love of God toward us},because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world,that we might live through him.Herein is love,not that we loved God,but that he loved us,and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." 1John 4:8-10: If God is Love,and God loves everyone(John 3:16),how will he{manifest his love to those in the lake of fire}?
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@Tomekwinxs ... Oh and by the way, i am not charging God with anything, although the parts about selling your daughter into slavery and killing your rebellious children comes straight out of the old testament and was part of the perverted Hebrew law, among many other terrible things that Christ came to set straight by commanding we should love our enemies and bless those who abuse us ...
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
@Ironmaw1776 Again here you go blaming God for things he has not done. You must understand the time period these people where living in. Far different then today. Today in America we murder babies without consequences. You should see how they kill a little baby after abortion. They rip the head off and then rap it in a bag and throw it away. Yes, many Christian think this is okay, but God does not. Just because Hebrews had laws doesn't mean it was from God. It's only showing us how it was.
Tomekwinxs 3 months ago
@Tomekwinxs I am not blaming God for anything. I understand people do terrible things all the time, my point is that God does not. God overcomes evil with Good, he does not return evil for evil, as the false doctrine of literal hell and eternal damnation teaches. All of Gods judgments are for the purpose of chastising and correcting those who are judged. That's what it means that many will be saved as though by fire(1 Cor. 3:15).
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
@Ironmaw1776 I completely agree with you, but God will not allow sinners who reject him into heaven. Weather Hell is fire or outer darkness I don't know, but being separated from the Father is Hell and can't be good.
Tomekwinxs 3 months ago
@Tomekwinxs, hell does not exist, the grave exists or sheol/hades, and we all go there, and Gehenna exists - the valley of Hinnom which is just outside the walls of Jerusalem, Jesus used it as an analogy of Gods refining fire which is all consuming and will destroy the carnal nature. No one can reject God when he reveals himself to a person. Gods grace is irresistible, because his spirit quickens us and causes us to become new creatures. In the end all will confess that Christ is lord ...
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
@Ironmaw1776 Great! then I don't need Christ right now if what you speak is true. This means I can start up my old habits like smoking, having sex with several girls, drink beer, and so much more? I will not be held accountable? Thank you for setting me free.
Tomekwinxs 3 months ago
@Tomekwinxs Oh i see, your one of those Christians who believes you earned salvation by being "good" right? You know because drinking bear and having sex and smoking cigarettes and dancing will send us straight to hell right? I appreciate your idealism, but you will eventually grow up and realize that salvation is a free gift without any strongs attached, and one that you cannot earn by being good or knowing the secret handshake ...
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
@Ironmaw1776 You completely missed my point. Jesus died for you and I, so that we might receive life. It's by His grace only not by works or being 'good' do we inherit His kingdom. Only those who love the Father will be with Him. Personal relationship with Him. Only the Father draws us to Him by his grace and mercy alone. Only by faith can you please the Father. Those who rejects the Father rejects life. 1 John 5:12
Tomekwinxs 3 months ago
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741rjohnson 2 months ago
@Tomekwinxs Because he trying to put some sense into you.
MrPaulryan76 1 month ago
@kingfisher64 Well read 1 Corinthians 2 and you will see that Paul clearly taught that a knowledge of God cam by the quickening of the spirit of Christ. A natural man cannot understand of spiritual things, because they are spiritually discerned, God must first renew our minds and hearts and we must be born again of the spirit in order to produce the gifts and fruits of the spirit, faith being both. It is God who works inside us to make us desire and do what pleases him (Philippians 2:13).
Ironmaw1776 4 months ago
@Tomekwinxs , but most of those Jews didn't believe in Jesus, so they went straight to hell to be tortured for eternity after they were tortured and killed by Hitler, right?
Ironmaw1776 3 months ago
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Get the book The Aqua Oracle by Ty Anderson, it is the best book on Universalism I have ever read. You can find it at amazon. Check out the chapter titles of this book, very intense.
This book INCINERATES THE DAMNATIONISTS.
MichaelBoryAlis 6 months ago
If one has to believe it, it's not grace. How is eternal punishment justices? God is not a terrorist .
bobbyles 7 months ago
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HELL IS REAL. View my Channel to watch a video.
SupportFreedom1 8 months ago
lol this is what me and my sister sound like... i feel bad though, both guys are against the universalist
moonlightkirameki 8 months ago
How can someone preach forgiveness... and say, that if they were God, they would send him to hell?
moonlightkirameki 8 months ago
Yeah, those two really know God. hahaha
TheSololobo 8 months ago
God's mercy is incredible, still it would be wise to not test the limits.
I'd like to see the debate on 'Faith Under Fire' concerning eating meat/vegetarianism.
kub73158 9 months ago
The tougher question is if the 6 million Jews, after being tortured and killed, were afterwards thrown into hell for not believing in Jesus? Thats a more relevant question.
danielthedreamer 9 months ago
@danielthedreamer True!
tentmaker777 9 months ago
@danielthedreamer --Yes and you could also go further then that and ask about the Old Testiment Jews, before Jesus. Did all of them perish in hell because they did not know Jesus? Of course not. Faith was given onto them for believing in the "coming mesiah". Jews had to pray., make sacrifices and do good works before Jesus arrived.......
aldotkd1 6 months ago
You getting tired of dealing with these Calv-Arminians Gary? LOL
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@Lightmane321
VERY MUCH SO, lightmane. This hellfire damnation teaching really hardens the hearts and minds of those it possesses. It's like alcoholism, the denial is pretty intense. This pulpitthumper thinks he's a pretty nice dude. He's nicer than the god he peddles. :-)
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 Now if only he could understand that (that he's nicer then the God he peddles). That kinda says it all, doesn't it.
Lightmane321 11 months ago
@Lightmane321 Yes, that realization would open his eyes.
tentmaker777 9 months ago
@tentmaker777 The notion that a loving Father would torture humans in raging fire forever- with no redemptive goal in mind is bewildering. You know, when the Israelites burnt their children in sacrifice to Molech in Jer32, God called it an abomination- something that had never entered into His mind (v35) How can people suppose that God will indulge in the same 'abomination' He rebuked and cursed Judah for? Gehenna stands as a reminder to us of what God thinks about those who practice such evil
etherform66 11 months ago
I love how these two jokers gang-fuck Gary. Lee Strobel is not an impartial mediator, he brags all the time about his bullshit hell fairy-tale.
chefshitpiece 11 months ago
1 John 4 verse18 here is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (KJV) Those who constantly fear-monger trying to scare people to church instead of loving them with the love of God simply reveal their hearts are full of fear, or hate or vengeance they are trying to project on God. God is love and love NEVER fails. Why is that so difficult to believe?
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 I read pretty much your latest statements which were more philosophical than biblical: No biblical support for your thought. At this point, what you can do in a short time is read a book on the 5 point of calvinism. The ``all`` has to be taken in context, and God does not contradict itself. Sure, I`d like everybody in Heaven, God also, but God is just. If to enter heaven you need to be born again, then all humanity will have to be born again, which is definitely not the case.
robvello 11 months ago
I'm very familiar with Calvinism. So you believe only the "elect" are saved. So why all your preachiness. Whoever is saved is saved no matter how good and bad the elect are. And those damned to Hell are damned no matter what they do. The god of Calvinism is a monster and those who embrace this concept become hard, proud and blind. John Calvin had Michael Servetus burned to death on slow burning green wood simply because Servetus thought differently from Calvin. Calvinism/reformed faith, ugh.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 I don`t ask you to agree with all that Calvin did. I simply point out the notion of the ``all``. Election is not from Calvin but from the Bible (Eph 1:3-14, Romans 8:28-30). Divine election alongside human responsibility to respond to the gospel. You bluntly close your eyes to scripture to make a God that fits your theology. Just read the book of Jude. It describes the future judgment of apostates and false teachers. It was even prophesied from the time of Enoch! Be Biblical
robvello 11 months ago
Your logic is faulty. You start with a false premise that only the elect will be saved and that not all are elect. Therefore all can't be saved. What if the "elect" are the instrument to bring salvation ot the non-elect? Furthermore, God HARDENS ALLL, that includes the elect AND He has mercy UPON ALLLL, that includes those who are not elect. So he hardens all and has mercy upon all, that wipes out your only the elect will be saved. God has a plan, robvello, it would behoove you to find the plan.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 I return the same compliment. Your argument is philosophical ,not at all in line with scripture.It is important to answer my arguments. One thing is very clear, the apostates and unbelievers in Jude, the epistles of John (I Jn2:18-19) , Peter (2Pet 2:1-20), in Revelation (Rev 20:12-15) are not in Heaven. Conversion is a transfer from the Kingdom of Satan to the Kingdom of God (Rom6, Eph2). One thing is sure, God makes it clear that some are not in heaven (I Tim 1:5-10,Rev22;14)
robvello 11 months ago
One thing is pretty clear to me, Jesus is the Savior of the whole world whether you believe it or not. John 4:42, 1 John 4:14, John 12:32, Phil. 2:10, Col. 1:16-20, 1 Tim 4:9-11, Rev. 5:13, 1 Cor. 15:22, etc. etc. Another thing is clear, most Christians are in unbelief. That is why they can't see what is plainly written, just like the scribes, Pharisees, Saduccees and lawyers in Jesus' day. Self-righteousness and pride has blinded most Christians justl ike it blinded the Jews.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 Christ saves the World (Jew and non Jew) instead of only the Jews. But not all human beings will be in heaven, and this is clear. All men will confess Christ as Lord either as their savior now, or as their judge in the future.Your error is serious because you don`t even understand human history with the line of the serpent, and the line of the messiah (Gen 3:14-16). Anyhow, we both agree that the other is spiritually blind. That`s where it stands. I hope you don`t die today.
robvello 11 months ago
I have passed from death to life. You obviously don't read the bible very much or you would have known that. And it is clea to those whose hearts are not crowded with fear, that Jesus will save the entire world. Obviously, it's not clear to you because you talk like a fear monger. And folks, who have followed this thread, God loves you and desires you have a rich life on earth and Jesus is the way, the truth and the life in which you can find that. Don't let fear mongers keep you from Jesus.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 Good for you. Like Jesus, I make sure that those who needs to be comforted against false accusation be secure in the work of salvation, and warn those who have a false sense of security to come to true knowledge of salvation (Mat 10:38-39). If you came out from the dead, you should have a passion to share the gospel with the lost, not tell them all kinds of fairytales. By not being willing to do that, I come back to the first question: You believed what? and were saved from what?
robvello 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 Good for you. Like Jesus, I make sure that those who needs to be comforted against false accusation be secure in the work of salvation, and warn those who have a false sense of security to come to true knowledge of salvation (Mat 10:38-39). If you came out from the dead, you should have a passion to share the gospel with the lost, not tell them all kinds of fairytales. By not being willing to do that, I come back to the first question: You believed what? and were saved from what?
robvello 11 months ago
Oh, I tell them all sorts of wonderful things that God has done for me and what He has saved me from. My testimony can be found at the Tentmaker Ministries site under the topic of testimonials under the name Gary Amirault. The wages of sin is death, NOT eternal torment. So he saved me from death. He healed me of alcoholism. He gave me His life, love, joy, peace, miracles. He opened my blind eyes and ears. He gave me hope. He gave me a life worth living. My security is in HIM, not in myself.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 OK. I think it is more reformation than regeneration, but I will not judge. Honestly, I am happy that Christ changed your life, and you can see hope in Him: It is totally true. Here is the issue, the wage of sin is death physical...but definitely spiritual, and ultimately eternal. That`s the whole point of the gospel, and why it is such a ``good news``. When Adam and Eve sinned, they did not die physically, but spiritually. They were chased from the Garden.
robvello 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 Jn 16:13-14. To answer your question, Yes, I am happy for a meaning of your life in Christ. But you need to understand that salvation is from spiritual and eternal death, Hell, and that all the warnings in the Sermon in the Mount and during Christ Ministry were for people to be broken, feel their lostness, and come as beggars in Spirit to embrace God`s salvation (Lk19:10).Christ save the sinners (Rom 5:6-10), and the lost (Lk 19:10). Christ `s harshness was for the self righteous
robvello 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 If you go forward, read the gospel or the beginning of Acts, when after Peter preached Pentecost sermon (Acts 2:1-42), how these Jews had their heart pierced (convicted of their sin), and the fact that the resurrected Christ was now their judge..how they got converted by faith and repentance (Acts 2:42), and the new joy they found in the forgiveness of their sins. Christ came to forgive sins, and he does it through the gospel, the Holy Spirit convicts, and people get regenerated.
robvello 11 months ago
Yeah, when God convicts you and begins to remove the crud and fills you with His life, that is wonderful. Remember, it is the GOODNESS of God that leads to live, not sticking one's nose in their crap forever and ever. I am a NEW creation In CHRIST and I know it. And I didn't have to be dangled over a lake of fire to be that new Creation. He just gave me the Faith of Christ and I cried Abba Father. No one comes to the Father unless the Father draws Him. How many did the Father give him? Hmmm?
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 I corrected your statement that you are saved only from physical death.Salvation results in a true Love for Christ and the things of God.God gave the elect to Christ. Christ compares the unbelieving World to those the Father gave Him.(Jn 17).The sacrifice of Christ could have saved all human (God`s side of salvation), but most men chose not to believe and trust Him for their salvation. So, Yes, Hell exists, was never for anybody else than the devil, but will be full of people
robvello 11 months ago
The issue is not about the level of evil in someone. We are all inherently evil, and even the best of man is not enough for forgiveness of sins. Christ accomplished all that was necessary to bring any man who repents and trust in Him for salvation...but not all will receive Him and be born again. So, Helle who was first created for the Devil and his angels, will also be filled with all unbelievers in History (Hitler will not be alone) (Mat 25:41) Revelation is filled with image judgment
robvello 11 months ago
How do you KNOW without a shadow of doubt that your repented right AND REALLY put your trust in Him. I know of pastors and church leaders, who preached for many years losing their faith dying as atheists. How do YOU know that won't happen to you? How do you know you are getting the "right" doctrine to keep you on the straight and narrow. Remember NARROW is the gate that leads to life. How do YOU know your pride isn't fooling you? Maybe your closet is full of skeletons reading for judgment.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 In the facts, I can see a different life and new affections. You are right, narrow is the gate and straight the path (Mat 7;13-14). First, someone has to understand the fundamentals of the Gospel, and not feel good belief. An honest confession of Jesus (Savior) Christ (King, Lord God) and a commitment to follow Him is enough (Eph 2:8-9)...but there will be a proof in new works produced in Christ(Eph 2;10). Finally, God-Christ will keep all those who trusted in Him (Jn 10:28-30)
robvello 11 months ago
So how do YOU know that you truly trusted Him enough to "be saved?" What if your heart is full of pride and self-righteousness and YOU were actually like the Pharisees and too blind to see it? How can you be sure of your salvation seeing that you think most of mankind is going to rot in Hell. Look in the mirror and ask God, Is this pride looking at me or true humility.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 I think that all your questions are based more on ``unbelief``` than evaluating scripture. First, we are all proud and lost by nature. So, confessing Christ as Lord and savior, like beggars is already the first step to true salvation (Mat5:3). Humility of heart is a condition and a result of true faith (Mat 5:3-5), but God takes care of making christians more and more humble through trials (Rom5:3-5). In fact the roots of the greek word for humiliation and humility are the same.
robvello 11 months ago
You are right, it is a matter of faith, but who's faith, yours or Jesus' faith? I believe the Bible tells us we cannot even believe without the "faith of Christ" so that we cannot boast in ourselves. The author and finisher of MY faith is Jesus Christ. I realize most Christians have faith in their own faith. That usually turns one into a self-righteous Pharisee.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 I think that you have to ask yourself if you believe in Christ. And if you have uncertainty about your faith, what is the cause? Do you have concerns about the Bible? Jesus Christ being the only way of Salvation, and/or being the very God? Other religions being right? If you have an honest doubt, that`s what we need to talk about. The Devil loves to make even good intentioned believer doubt of their faith;He is the adversary(Satan), the slanderer(Devil), accusing even the elect.
robvello 11 months ago
Robvello, I'm talking about YOU, not me. What makes YOU so sure that you are saved. The Pharisees were certain they were righteous and street sinners were not. But they were wrong. THEY trusted in the fact they thought they were right with God but they weren't. YOU seem to think you are right with God. What if it's only your pride telling you this? Could pride and self-righteousness be blinding you?
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 If you are a christian you should know the answer. But I will answer. My assurance does not rest on my opinion of myself but on what the Bible says and confirms (Rom 8:1, 10:9-10, I Jn 5:11-13). Here lies my questions to you. I trust Christ as the only savior (Jn14:6), the Bible as inerrant (2Tim 3:16) and true (Jn 17:17). For the moment you speak like an atheist or an agnostic, and not a christian.
robvello 11 months ago
Your Bible is inerrant? Which translation is that? I sure would like to have a copy of an "inerrant" Bible. What do you think of this? 1 Tim 4:9-11. What does that say in your Bible? That Jesus is the savior of only those that believe? Or that He is the savior of all? How does your "inerrant" translation read?
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 OK, so now I see. First inerrance is with the original texts (Hebrew OT, Greek NT). If you have doubts on that you can`t be a christian. By the way, christianity starts with being born again (Jn 3;3). Are you? If not, it is like a dark book. On I Tim 4:9-11, who does refer ``all``? All humans or all elects(christians)? Then, we even have a question on the word `savior`` (soter) which can mean `deliverer or savior``. Knowing that there will be people in Hell (Mat 25:41-46) suite
robvello 11 months ago
So do you have the "original texts?" Yes, I have been born from above. You missed the whole point of 1 Tim 4:8-11, it says He's the savior of BOTH, unbelievers and believers. The WHOLE WORLD. Why did you miss that? Tell me, if Jesus had all power and authority to save all mankind and actually did so, would you have a problem with that? And which would glorify God most, that most of mankind rots in Hell or that He actually saves all? Which brings Him more glory?
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 God is a savior/deliverer for all men in that He is good to all men(universal) as a Creator (Mat 5:43-45), but especially to believers (I Tim 4:11) because He is their Father and Savior. Christianity is a relationship with the savior. That most people will reject the gospel is a fact verifiable every day, because they choose THEIR life (Mat7:13-16, Jn 3:16-21), God desires all men to come to faith, but man has free will to reject the message, and many do. Universalism is..devilish
robvello 11 months ago
Gee, isn't that amazing. Unversalism, which Paul the apostle taught, is "devilish." Hmmm. It glorifies God FAR more than teaching most of mankind is going to be tortured in a place created by God, and yet you say universalism is devilish. Seems to me, the teaching that most of mankind will rot in Hell glorifies the devil and dishonors Jesus and His Father. I'd have to say you have been seduced by the Father of lies. God more than 'desires" to save all mankind, He WILL save all mankind. :-)
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 Simple question:Who is the authority, you or the Bible?You can`t isolate one passage to justify your theology. That`s why, Paul agonized defending the gospel against false doctrine and preached the gospel. Not all will repent and believe (Acts 2:42-46). First, you need to come to terms on why Hell exist. Then the provision of the work of Christ. Unless you can`t read (Rev 20:12-15) or are blind,you don`t have any basis, and are bringing an heresy.Rather be converted and evangelize
robvello 11 months ago
I have about six feet of Bible translations on my shelves that do not contain the concept of a Hell of everlasting punishment from cover to cover. I have Hebrew and Greek texts and there is no Hell in them. The Jews don't believe in Hell, it's not in the O.T. Most of the early Church Fathers didn't believe in the Hell you believe in. I find MANY verses in YOUR own translation that plainly teach universal salvation, but you have to twist them to conform to your tradition. Jesus saves all, believe
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 Are you sure that you are reading a Bible? The terms gehenna, fire and brimstone, gnashing of teeth, lake of fire, eternal judgment, eternal fire, etc....it`s all in the Bible. Second, God (and definitely I) does not want people to be self deceived and believe that they can reject the gospel, live like if God does not exist, Christ has no authority on their lives, and think that God will all forget that and go to heaven. Christ did his part. Salvation is AVAILABLE to all men
robvello 11 months ago
gehenna is the city dump filled with fire and worms. Today gehenna is a garden. gnashing of teeth, nice way to say angry. Eternal judgment? See articles on aion at the Tentmaker Ministries site under Scholars Corner, Lake of fire, see lake of fire article at Scholars Corner at tentmaker ministries, brimstone see youtube channel tentmaker777 and what tested in the lake of fire
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 You are lost, as lost can be. First, start studying from solid theological tools. I suppose that you even master greek and hebrew. You WANT to believe a lie, that`s exactly the Spirit of AntiChrist,and you will believe anybody who want to tell you what you want to believe.Sure, gehenna was a dumpsite, but Christ used it as analogy for hell.Even the Jews understood.There is not much time to lose. I gave you plenty of verses already.Christ WARNED of the wrath to come (Mat 10:36-37)
robvello 11 months ago
I use VERY good theological tools and I believe Jesus is the Savior of the world because Jesus says so, the Greek says so, early church fathers who knew the Greek says so and my heart that Jesus won 25 years ago says so. I think that's enough witnesses. And Jesus' Father says so. He gave all things into Jesus' hands and Jesus saif of all the Father gave Him He would love NONE. You are in unbelief and denigrate the name of Jesus by being so.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 I don`t want people to fry in Hell, so I don`t flatter them telling them that all is OK, when it is not. Love is giving them the truth, that all men are lost by nature (Rom 1:18-31, 3:23, 6:23), God sent His son to save Sinners (Rom 5:6-8), and that by recognizing your own lostness depravity, inability to save yourself by your own works, and embracing the grace and Love of Christ, you CAN and WILL be saved. You exchange your life for His. He becomes your Lord and Savior.That`s Love
robvello 11 months ago
God is Love that never fails for who nothing is impossible. You teach that He created a place in which He sends most to burn forever. THAT is a lie. So when you make God appear worse than Satan, people will not want anything to do with Him. God is love. Do loving parents torture their children endlessly? Come on, man, it's ok to think. "Let us reason together."
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 You are a liar in denying what is plainly written. You don`t understand the gospel.You are not a christian, and are a fraud. I gave you plenty of explanation on God`s love sending His Son, but you want only an easy way in the kingdom, or who knows bring all those you know who are right now in Hell and which you can`t bring back. Take care of the living, and be sure to answer for your own life first.
robvello 11 months ago
Look at your answer. You say I want an easy way in the kingdom yet it is you who say all a person has to do is say a few words. Talk about easy. You call me a liar, not a Christian and a fraud. I think Jesus said a few things about people who do things like that. But heck, some folks are just Christians in name, words, empty words. Glad you're finally showing your true colors robvello.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 By the way, Gospel (evanggelion) means ``good news``. There is no good news of forgiveness and salvation unless someone accepts the bad news of lostness, and being on their way to Hell.False teachers try to deceive and flatter people in believing a false gospel (I Thess 2:4-8, 2 Cor 4:1-3). Nobody has to go to Hell, but men choose naturally to close their eyes to the Gospel.It`s not gonna fly if people don`t rpent Heb. 2:1-3, 10:31-39.. Now is the PATIENCE , not when Christ returns
robvello 11 months ago
Gee a visit to Tentmaker Ministries and search reconciliation scriptures and you'll find dozens listed.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
The King James Bible says that God WILL have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. You can take that to the bank, sir. But you don't believe it. Why? Because you've been deceived by the Deceiver and you do NOT glorify God with your unbelief. And I, if I am lifted up from the eath, will draw all mankind unto myself. John 12 verse 32. Oh, ye of so little faith, why do you doubt? Stop glorifying the devil.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 What does ``all`` refer in these passages? That`s a theological question. ``All kinds of men ``(exactly what happend with the church, Jews-Gentiles) or ``all men``(every human being ever existed). The first one is conclusive. The second one is in contradiction with most of the Bible. Again, there is no debate because you don`t even understand the gospel, the parables of wheat and tares, the 4 soils, the unjust servant, and most of the epistles, and church history.
robvello 11 months ago
Col. 1 verses 16 through 20 makes it plain who the all are. Jesus saves all, but you don't want to believe it? Why? Who would you like to see tortured forever and ever? You got some enemies you'd like to fry?
tentmaker777 11 months ago
So God created Satan, self and sin to win most of mankind. What a dumb or careless God. No wonder most of the world is not interested in the traditional Gospel of fear. God is love. Should you ever really experience that love, you would discover your foolish teachings need to be trashed.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)
MrPaulryan76 1 month ago
Robvello, how old are you? How long have you been a Christian? What type of church do you attend?
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 No need to answer. But let`s say that my life as a Christian has been long enough and proven enough . Instead of asking questions like an atheist (which would be understandable if you don`t have a clue on true christianity), tell me if you have a doubt on any of the premices of Christian faith (Jesus, Bible, Justification by faith, Perseverance of the saints, Sola Fide,etc). If there is an element which you are concerned, we can speak, if not, I don`t have time justifying my faith
robvello 11 months ago
I have a problem with folks scaring sincere people using "traditions of men which make the word of God of no effect." The Bible tells me that NOTHING is Impossible with God and the His love NEVER fails. What don't you understand about that? YOu have most of mankind being tortured forever. Gee, I think that makes God look worse than Hitler.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
@tentmaker777 You are right that being a church leader means nothing. Salvation is not based on an intellectual creed. The Pharisees hated Christ. There will be tons of apostates (Abandon the faith) in the history of the church, and false teachers, some for believing a false system near true christianity(JW, LDS, Cath., etc), but some because they were ALWAYS outside salvation while being professors (2nd and 3rd soils in the parable of the soils, tares). 2Pet 2:1-20, I Tim 4:1-4, 2Tim 4, Jude
robvello 11 months ago
My, my, you make God look like such a wimp and fool. Why, I think you could probably save more than the God you've been brainwashed into believing in. Why not bring Glory to God. You're scenario is so pathetic. A reasonable person wouldn't swallow the line you have been hooked on. Glorify God, not Satan. You make Satan more powerful than God.
tentmaker777 11 months ago
Everyone can go to heaven after they have experienced what they put others through! :D
LifeIsABigPuzzle 1 year ago
3:51 - that's in the physical Walls. People will ALWAYS reject what they don't understand and CAN'T assimilate. There are probably hundreds of people that saw Christ and simply thought "This guy has a hidden agenda - I don't know what it is - but i don't like it - it refutes "my" religious ideas and traditions. Do those people deserve to "go to Hell"? Gimme a break.
RationalPrejudice 1 year ago
Thank you Lord for going out and finding ALL the lost sheep. Even those as insane and evil as Hitler. May your perfect love transform ALL of us - even if it happens on the other side of this life. Thank you Lord!
RationalPrejudice 1 year ago
3:13 - Walls loses. Amirault FTW
RationalPrejudice 1 year ago
2:20
He said "I believe God loves the people in hell"
Well He certainly has a peculiar way of showing it them doesnt He?
God only loves HIS PEOPLE - the ELECT.
God does not love those who are not His people.
doctorh2005 1 year ago
Find the video "Are Evangelical Universalists really heretics?? "
Jeeves1952 1 year ago
Read "The Fire That Consumes" written by Edward Fudge. He argues for annihilationism (i.e. no eternal torment...which seems to make God a monster...but yes to the idea of eternal destruction. the notion of an immortal soul is Greek, not Biblical
Jeeves1952 1 year ago 3
The "is Hitler going to heaven" question is a huge distraction. The moderator clearly saw his guy wasn't doing so well, so tossed in a few red herrings. I'm not a universalist but what a joke the host turned the debate into ...."making an excuse for Hitler. right. Snarky shot. The Universalist kept going to scripture...the host and the evangelical guy kept going to philosophy...and dodges.
(I'm actually not ----yet----a Universalist....but this debate tilts me that way!)
Jeeves1952 1 year ago 7
@Jeeves1952 This debate was so pathetic it wouldn't sway me one way or the other.
StormTrek 1 year ago
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TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
@fightluv You're trying to say because everyone repents, we don't need to know about repentence? How would anyone know about repentence?
AJudge wrote to 1000 death row convicts telling them that if they did not have an authentic change (repentence) then they would be friedon the chair. The convicts eventually end up repenting before it's to late, and the judge never has to fry them.
Why would the judge write that letter if they all get out?
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
@fightluv
Ok, I'm sure you've "repented" of sin. So do you still sin? So that makes you worse than a heathen, doesn't it? Because you've tasted of the heavenly gift and then go back to the pigpen. So who's the worst sinner, one who knows better and still sins or one who doesn't know his left hand from the right. As to Abnormalbob, what are you doing messing with a site like that? Hmmmm?
tentmaker777 1 year ago 2
@fightluv
Could it not be, that everyone will eventually repent? If everyone does repent then it doesn't make the Bible a lie.
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
It might be because of this
2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
We live in an age of time where Christians call themselfs "Calvanists" or "Arminians"
WAKEE UP!!!
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to bring back to a former state of agreement and concord all things unto himself, by him I say whether they they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Why does Paul say whether they be things in earth, or things in "heaven"
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
@TheOkstate2012
Well, Revelation speaks of a war in the heavens. What heavens, is hard to say. Paul speaks of having gone to the "third" heaven. I don't know how he broke the heavens apart. I guess there is the natural sky, then the heavens beyond and then the realm of the Spirit which is another heavens.
tentmaker777 1 year ago
@tentmaker777
Hmm, I thought that war that broke out was because Christ was born?
But I can only only think that Paul is somehow saying that fallen angels and satan can or will be reconciled.
What beings in heaven would need reconcilation, you know? Hm just found something interesting wil post bellow.
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
@TheOkstate2012
In a post you sent that I got via email but can't find here for some reason (are you spamming or something) you said that I was really quite impossible. Don't give me such high esteem. With GOD all things are possible and "Love never fails." You simply have very little faith. True Christians believe the impossible for you see salvation is all God. But you can't see that because you trust in your "faith" instead of the Faith of Christ.
tentmaker777 1 year ago
@tentmaker777
That doesn't make any sense. I've been agreeing with what you have been saying....
I meant it for sports. and deleted it....
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
1 Corinthians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Greek meanings
PEACE is: eijrhnopoievw, which means to make peace, to establish harmony.
RECONCILE is: Apokatallasso, which means to bring back a former state of harmony
HARMONY is: harmonía, meaning "joint, agreement, concord" from the verb HARMOZO which means to "TO FIT TOGETHER, TO JOIN
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
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TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
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TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
@fightluv
Well, you migh be the exception. Anyone who would call a paraphrase a "great reference" can't be much into serious study. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will DRAG all mankind unto myself." John 12:32 Go look it up in a Bible "reference" book. All, in this verse means ALLLLLLLLL. :-)
tentmaker777 1 year ago
persecution that was going to come when they went out to spread the Gospel
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
You don't even know what Christ was talking about. You take scripture out of it's context. It's obvious you don't examine it throughly. No where does God say people will in defenitely go to hell. All it says was not to fear mankind, for mankind can only kill the body that will cease once it's dead. but he said to fear God the father because he can destroy body and mind.
And if you read the whole chapter, you would know that Jesus was talking to his disciples about not fearing the future
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
You keep on using the word atone for verses that never used it. How much more dense can you get? You ignore clear verses in the Bible that declare that God will save everyone. Then you try to use scripture and make it sound in favor of your views. Like this one,
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Where does that say that 100 percent people will be in hell?
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
@TheOkstate2012 I never said 100% of people will be in Hell. When the physical body dies you go to judgment. Just because we pray for people doesn't mean they will be saved, they can be saved, it's ultimately up to God. Do you know what arrogance even is? You accuse me of being arrogant yet you don't even know the definition. Personal attacks don't work my friend. You said no-one will go to Hell? Personally I don't even know what you believe. It's definitely not Christianity though.
sports444life 1 year ago
@sports444life scripture however you like. All I can do is pray that our Lord and savior Jesus Christ leads you in the right direction. God Bless.
sports444life 1 year ago
@sports444life You just thrown blank accusations without refuting why I am wrong. You just through in random verses that don't make any sense. If you examined the scripture with scrutiny you would come to a reasonable conclusion that most of what I have been saying has a lot of merit. Show me where it says johnas repented. How can you read a scripture and say it means something else then it simply does? And actually no mortal body is in heaven. No one does until Christ's return. Good luck.
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
@TheOkstate2012 Obviously we don't agree, and your viewpoint on Christianity ( i'm still not sure what it is) is skewed. I have one more question for you, what happens to everyone if they don't all go to Heaven?
sports444life 1 year ago
@sports444life Well if I'm wrong they either go burn forever in hell, or God just kills their body and soul.
Look, I'm not saying that people who are not saved are going to heaven. I don't deny the condemnation that God says will happen if you are not saved. BUT
What I am saying is that God has already saved us before we even knew he would. Which is everyone!
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
@TheOkstate2012 Well the first one is backed by scripture, not so much the latter. It's not really making sense to me what you are saying. You don't deny condemnation if people aren't saved, yet everyone is saved so there is no condemnation? I agree that God has given the opportunity for us to be "saved", however as I said it's a choice whether we accept it or reject it. To have peace and harmony evil must be done away with, since evil exists. To reconcile is what God will do on his 2nd coming.
sports444life 1 year ago