سؤال,"اصالت وجود خدا را توضیح بدهید" - Bahram Moshiri

[223344mm]

u r great man i just love u man

[kasra20giv1]

مشیری خرد ورز بزرگ و گرامی

ایکاش مثل مشیری هزاران در ایران بودند

[Mrknightrider777]

Then , there should be a living entity that we may not be able to comrehend him fully to creat this universe, is this a right assesment that i made???

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

Not at all. where did you get your entity, let alone a "living" entity?

Assuming a the beginning nothing existed and considering the fact that no existence can drive from non-existence, then as soon as you assume the existence of God, you run into a paradox and contradiction.

You need to explain God's coming to existence, when nothing existed, including God, without breaking the rule that no existence can come out of nonexistence. No exception.

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar to be honest, i could not follow your rational , 1) why try to sound so intelectual sometimes being simple works better, give me a reason that things can be created from nothing a simple question? and you did say no then a living thing creats is not it??as i mentioned before space-time dimesion is the consequence of big bang, time is created so as space at a singular point , 2)have read carl saygen book "flat land"? there are other dimension than 4 dimension, is proven mathematicaly

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

You are telling me to talk simple, yet you want to talk about forth dimension and time and space continuum! Here is my question as simple as I can ask:

If an Existence can not drive from Non-Existence, then how do you explain the Existence of God, when nothing existed before God?

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar chon ke ba kudak saro karat fetad rasm o rahe kudaki bayad nahad, aziz man in harfha ra zadam chon shoma khodetan az paradox va az in harfha mizadid vagharne simplicity is the best,dear both materialistic point of wiew and religous one based on phylosofy and logic agrees that the universe started at some point , nature is materialist's god , God is religous creator who is alive.thanks for responding

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar dear atgar , as i mentioned before, the existance as we know is 3th dimension one, x-y-z t(time) is realized later , even though time can not be detected by our 5 senses but by rationalizing we can measure. it in any rate this 3 dimenstion is what we are accustom with and our frame of mind like to see entities in this frame. anything out of this frame makes us skeptical , like 4yh or 5th or 14th dimension but we are compeld to accept them.Almighty God has the same story.

[Mrknightrider777]

mesal mizanam: shoma yek monkey ra dar moghabele yek computer boghzarid , va moshahede konid , what is the probability that this monkey type word monkey ,according to probability theory 1/6 x 1/6 1/6 x 1/6 1/6 x 1/6=2.14x10^-5 very small number now imagine the entire universe with perfect ordinance the probability that this ordinance occurs by a noninteligent entety is zero ==> there is a GOD. MOVAFAGH BASHID.

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

All your logic can be applied to the question of who created GOD???? Where did God came from?? what was before GOD????

What is God who creates ~200 BILLION Galaxies, each holding ~200 BILLION stars, and many stars have many planets, which some are larger than Earth. And this is only the known universe!!! Our great Earth only a dust particle in universe and we live, eat and fight on this dust particle!!!

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar both materialist and monotiest agree that the chain of existance end up to one entity , materialist say that this origin is the nature but monoteist belive in a creator , but i proved mathematicaly that this entetity should have inteligence, we call it God

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

I believe both Materialists and Monotheist are wrong. we simply don't know. There was a time when we didn't know the reason for earthquake then we as human would make up stories, and it turned out all were false. At the time each group would swear by their theory and was thinking that they have the truth.

Only when we can scientifically prove or disprove any claim we have achieved something. Otherwise we are wasting our time.

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

Once you understand the universe and its uncomprehending vastness, you realize how small we are imagining the God. Our greatest minds can not create a computer program as intelligent as a cock roch, and our supposed God has this earth and creatures within it and at least 4,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets, but yet cares if Aghdas Khanoom hair shows or not!!! We assume God so small, like ourselves.

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar 1)so you do agree the existance of God 2) God cares about everything small or big but you again mixing culture , with fegh , there no punishment in quran for bihejabi simple as that .for adultry iffffffff proven some number of slashes is prescribed, stoning is mosaic law not quranic.but i thought you agree with moshiri that there is no god, ??

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

I am much smaller to think about God and it's existence or non-existence, and if exist what is God, or if don't then how the universe began. We simply have very little information on the matter and any time spent on this subject is waste of time.

So far all we know of the known universe is that it started from a source with an explosion called Big Bang. This we can prove. However, only one second before the Big Bang, nobody knows yet.

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar please explain small??!! do you mean by size of body or ???/ 2)this subject is not waist of time atall, knowing that there is a creater will do a lots mentioning a few, psychologicly we know that this life is not vain and this craetor punishes and rewards our deeds here and the other world, in the other hand there is a huge relif to know that this world is not the end of it but transitory , beside beliving in god (not in only word but in action) on average is preventive.

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

Silly question, of course small in the sense of our mind and knowledge not the body size, otherwise if we go by size of the body then elephant must know much more that me and you on the subject.

Yes it is very comforting to believe in God who is watching over us, and punishes the nutty and rewards the people with good deed, and this is the reason we create this type of God. We as human are so small, helpless and we love living for ever, and God will solve all these issues.

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar 1) God gave us tools to solve our own problem he may interfer somtimes depends on his wisdom," We as human are so small, helpless and we love living for ever, and God will solve all these issues" what is wrong with this??? please explain 2) you talk as a sofist(not sufi) , do you belive if there exist a world independent from us?? the answer to this would answer your statment that we creat god!!! if that is the case we craet everything in our imagination and then call it reality!!!

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

What I mean is believing in God will make us feel these problems are solved and we no longer fear or feel helpless, I didn't mean that there is actually a God who would really do anything for us.

[godseeker11]

@artagar let me ask you this, do you think universe just created itself?? i guess we have to start from here, do you think that noexistance can creat??? .then we go from there.

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar we will get to that, but please answer my question is it possible that nonexistance creat existance? a very simple question, dont dance around the question like these sheiat or sunnis moslem or like christaians , is it possible that any thing that we know of came to existance by itself? waiting for your answer.thanks

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

No. Impossible.

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar , then it would be logical and fair to say that there should be an entity who creat the existance ? if you say no then you contradict yourself and if you say yes therefore there is a creator for the entire universe==> there exist a GOD simple as that, this moshiri is void of reason and just mocking thoes who belive in creator.

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

Lets say YES, there should be an entity who create the existence. Then the question would be who created the entity who creates existence?

The fallacy of your logic is that you use the cause and effect rule as a fact when it suites to prove your argument, bu you choose to ignore it when it contradicts your basis.

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar dear I did explained it before, try to look at it with unbiased glass, imagin that you ask a person to move an object if this person say that i need some else elp to move it, and this story goes from one person to another one , is there any chance that the object moves????never but since we the object is moving ==> there has to be an end this chain, that right there proves that the chain of cause and effect has an end . some call this entity at the end cause of causes.

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

My friend, I am very unbiased. Starting a sentence saying don't be unbiased, or emotional or close minded is a fallacy on its own. It is called Ad Hominem fallacy. Just make your argument.

Anyway, in an nut shell what you are claiming is that the cause and effect rule does not apply to the "cause of causes", right?

If YES Then : the cause and effect is not a rule can not be used in your argument

If NO Then : You need to explain the cause for "cause of causes"

Do you agree?

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar i oppoligize for misunderstanding, in any rate, as i explained befor i hpe it was clear i am not good at analogy but i try, look if i am asked to move an object and i need some one help to move it and this goes all the way to infinity , this object will not move , now if this object is already move it has to start from some one who does not need any help , in the other hand this chain of cause and effect should be stped at a cause who is not effect of any cause.

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

My dear, you have explained well and I understand the problem, which is more than 1000 years old, back to Aristotle. We don't know the answer beginning of the universe without breaking or making an exception to the causality rule.

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

I do understand you are offering the concept of God, which is a very old solution to a very old problem. But my point is that your solution is flawed because you must break the causality rule in order to introduce the concept of God, and you are offering the problem itself, the causality rule and question of universe beginning, as a proof to your God solution. Please ponder on you proof of God, it basically is the problem itself!

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar Dear , please enlighthen me about the wrongness of my analogy, please articulate on this.thanks

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

I honestly can't explain it any better. Lets leave here as food for our thoughts. good luck and take care...

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar Dear atgar, by the same token , if this universe came to existance (it is moved like the object in my example)==> therfore it has a begining that is the cause without being an effect , now some say that nature is this some say an inteligent design creat the universe , i stop here and see if you agree then we go furthur.

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

But believing in this type of God as comforting as it is, it is not without a price. For one thing, it is like taking drugs. When you have problems you can take drugs and make you feel good as you no longer have the problem, but the fact is you still do, and nothing has been solved. Like in our case, you like higher punishment and justice from higher power and you don't like dying out of existence for ever and believe in God or not these problems do exist.

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar that is a silly analogy, beliving in god does not equate to listless, you iranian you know this prover , you have to move in order God helps you, if you sit and ask god for your help you have to take inititaive otherwise god will not help you,o this is not like taking drugs atall,

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

I am sure if Ramses, the Pharaoh of Egypt who built a pyramid to rise in the after life and live for ever, would come back to life and see his body in Egyptian museum instead of any after life paradise, would either choose not to believe what he sees or would pass out. Also, I am sure if you would tell him that his inherited believes are false, he would never believe you and might have even kill you for telling him the truth!

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar "Big Bang" in quran : Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?” (Quran 21:30)

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

Please continue..."and we have placed in the earth firm hills lest it quake with them and we have placed therein ravines as roads that haply they may find their way" (21:31)

What hills have to do with earth quake? or are the ravines are made by God so we can find our way??? These "holy" books have said a lots of thing and some times by chance is close to truth and most of the time are down right wrong!

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

In order for me to prove a book is not from any God, I need to find only one error and it is more than enough prove that no God has written that book. I can do this many time over. Generally speaking, I promise you Gods never and never write any book. And it they ever do that, you and me would in deed be dazzled beyond comprehension. It certainly wouldn't need many interpreters to try to remedy the blunt errors.

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar And according to enstein we are living in space_Time , time and space is created at that singular point called bigbang, there is no second befor bigbang, time did not exist before that, even pholosofer affirms this,you have listened by moshiri like why not give it a chance to other school of thought, the reality is not monopolized by a single ideology or religion, the best is to listen without ant prejudicity and then decide.

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

That is the point, we don't know what was or was not there before the Big Bang. I am not prejudice in thought. Far from it. I was born in a Muslim family and I was brain washed into many believes. I f I was prejudice I would stuck with those believes. But once my knowledge grew, I have pondered while keeping an open mind and controlling my fear and greed, which at first was hard to do, I have recognized my false believes and don't waste my precious short life on them.

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar Mr atgar , what is god? God can not be imagined we can not compare its creation to God and we are not supposed to know what God it, let me ask you do you know what is energy ??its nature??? no but we by knowing its behavior we attach some adjective to it in physics energy is defined as the ability to do work!! you see this is not the description of nature of energy but what it can do, by the same token God's nature is not know but its behavior is what we need to learn for our own good

[artagar]

@Mrknightrider777

Yes we sometimes recognize a phenomena from its behavior. But that behavior is scientific, meaning they are predictable and consistent. However God's behavior is neither predictable nor consistent. We can verify the light properties but we can not do this with God. So, the scientific proof of God is out of question. We don;t even have a universally accepted definition of God, let alone any scientific proof of it.

[godseeker11]

@artagar Mr atgar , in the world of quantum mechanics , we dont face with deteministic world but probabilistic one, so the prediction is not exact at all so even in material world nothing is exact and we have to see with probabilistic glass, " the scientific proof of God is out of question. " you see fishs are emersed in water always => can not prove the existance of water, this is similar to our situation.god is every where , ther is no locality for God!=> ????. think about it.

[Mrknightrider777]

@artagar we can not imagin God that is for sure God is faceless .God bless

[Mrknightrider777]

pas haghayeghe gheyre madi ham vojud darand , dar biology khandeim ke mojude zende az mojude zende padid miayad ya ghyre zende, pas aghar shoma in ghanun ra ghabul konid berahati mitavan ghoft ke yek mojudi hast ke in jahan ra khalgh karde, ma har ghah rade paie mibinim be vojude mojudi ke an rade pa ra ijad karde ezan mikonim hala chetor mishavad ke in jahane por azemat ke manade rde paiest be vojude asar ghozar ezan nemikonim, in ra man vaghean motevaje nemisham.lotfan tozih dahid.

[Mrknightrider777]

aghaye moshiri aghar chizi ra ba havase panjghane daryaft nakonim dalile bar in nist ke vojud nadarad, shoma dalil nemiavarid faghat darid khodetan ra tekrar mikonid, moteasefane shoma az jade aghl be ehsasat miravid. tanafore shoma az islam cheshmetan ra kur karde.

[kasra20giv1]

@Mrknightrider777

اگر شما چیزی را با حواس و آنچه که وصل به حواس انسان و امتداد حواس انسان است مثل میکروسکوب و تلسکوب و تلویزیون و رادیو و دیگر ابزار نمیتوانید وجودش را اثبات کنید پس اساسن چگونه متوجه میشوید که ان چیز وجود دارد و شما از کجا به وجود ان چیز وقوف یافتید در این جهان هر آنچه که هستی دارد اشغال کننده ی یک مکان است و در نتیجه دارای ادرس معینی است ایا شما در حیطه ی علم میتوانید ادعا بکنید که پدیده ای وجود دارد که با حواس دریافت نمیشود ولی با این وجود وجود دارد مگر دیوانه باشید

[Mrknightrider777]

@kasra20giv1 1) havase panjghane inha faghat sense mikonand ama yek padide nadidani be esme zehn vojud darad ke az in etelaate jam shode mafhum sazi mikonad , edrak yek padide madi nist,....makan nadarad adrese moshakhasi nadarad sohbat az ehtemalat hast.2)daneshmandan ta be hal electron ra nadidand va nature an ra doghane farz mionand ama be vojudash indirectly ezan mikonand.aslan rabete elat ma mamul zehnist na madi.havas faghat sense mikonad va zehn dark minoad.

[kasra20giv1]

@Mrknightrider777

من متوجه این گفتار شما نمیشوم شما چه چیزی را با این استدلال تان میخواهید نتیجه بگیرید و یا اثبات کنید شما میگوئید که ذهن دیدنی نیست ولی وجود دارد البته ذهن با چشم غیر مسلح قابل رویت نیست همانطور که میکروب نیست اما کارکرد انرا علم بیولوژی به شکل امواج الکترومگنتیک اندازه گیری میکند یعنی در یک معنا منشا مادی دارد و از مغز انسان سرچشمه میگیرد در این جهان هرچه هست مستقیم و یا غیر مستقیم ریشه ی مادی دارد این خدائی که میگویند وجود دارد اما موجود نیست از نگر علمی یک پارادوکس است

[Mrknightrider777]

@kasra20giv bebinid , zehne ma mahfum sazi mikonand in mafhum momken hast ke etebari bashad yani dar kharej az zehn vojud nadarad, the law of cause and effect in ghanun amri madi nist aslan elam ke kashfe ravabete made hast khod madi nist, lotfan kami inja tamol konid, bahs in nist ke dar in jahan har che hast mostaghim ya gheyre mostaghim madi hast ay kashfe in ertebat dar zehne adami aya mdi hast ya na? ma 1 sib ya do sib ya 3 sib ra mibinim ama in zehne ma mojudi bename "jaama " ijad mikonad

[Mrknightrider777]

@kasra20giv1 IN AGHAYE MOSHIRI KHODASH GHOFTARASH por az maghlate hast , ama chon in hokumate iran mardom ra az islam bizar kardand in agha moshtari peyda karde. be ghole molavi " ma sammiim o basirim o hoshim ba shoma namahraman ma khamoshim.

[kasra20giv1]

@Mrknightrider777

خوب نگفتی که کدام سخن مشیری مغلطه است تا من هم ارشاد شوم و از شما چیزی یاد گرفته باشم در ضمن مولانا به عنوان یک عارف کارش این بوده که این احکام ضد بشری و خشک اسلام را از ذهن مومنین به آن بزداید و جایش را با عشق و محبت و دوستی به انسانها پر سازد و اگر کمی مطالعه در اشعار وی و دیگرانی از نوغ ایشان بنمائی میبینی که آنها بسیاری از باورهای اساسی اسلام را نفی میکنند مثلن در شعر مشهور ای قوم به حج رفته کجائید به صراحت ایشان مسئله ی حج را به سخره میگیرند عرفا سخنشان را پوشیده میزدند

[Mrknightrider777]

@kasra20giv1 ?????? aya donbale haghighat hastid?? ya faghat mojadele mikonid?

[kasra20giv1]

@Mrknightrider777

مگر حقیقت بدون تفحص و کندو کاو و مطالعه خود بخود بدست میاید شما فرض کنید که حقیقت نزد شما است خوب چگونه میخواهید دیگران را به این حقیقت راهنمائی کنید فقط با ادعا کردند و هیچگونه استدلال عقلی ارائه نکردند خوب اگر اینگونه است که این ملایان بیش از 1000 سال است که میگویند حق با آنها است و هیچ استدلال منطقی وعقل و دانش پسند هم ارائه نمیکنند و میگویند که کار ایمان با خرد نیست بلکه با قلب سروکار دارد و باور من هم همین است که اهل ایمان از عقل مرخص هستند ایمان یعنی جهالت موروثی

[Mrknightrider777]

shoma faghat mighid hafe mofte ama dalil nemiavarid?????????? unvaght esmetun ro ghozashtig ostad???????????????lollllllll­llllll

[zangir2007]

مرگ بر استعمار ۱۴۰۰ ساله اعراب

[elh2tah]

fuck u

[tafarda]

God is an imaginative narrative which has no basis in fact.

[Sheatallica]

na tanha khoda dar islam mard boodeh, balkeh dar masihiat, va sayere adyan ham hamisheh be soorateh mozakar nam bordeh shodeh...false religions!!

[allexbratson]

I reckon Ostad is an agnostic

[XUltra00]

@allexbratson He points out to all different kinds of gods being worshiped in India and else where, so what he is saying is that there is not just one "god", but many gods all in different forms as we know societies have ever believed in throughout human civilization.

[WALLSTREET56]

you have not answered the question

[parsajavid]

GOD will make the GREAT PERSIA again

خداوند کشور آریایی بزرگ را دوباره می سازد

[kasra20giv1]

@parsajavid

داداش اگه خدا رو پیدا کردی سلام من رو هم خدمتش ارائه بده التماس دعا

من هرچی گشتم پیداش نکردم خدا یک موجود ذهنیست تو قبولش داری برای تو وجود داره من قبولش ندارم برای من وجود نداره اما این جهان چه من و چه شما بخواهیم و یا نخواهیم وجود داره چرا چونکه مستقیما با حواس هم بنده و هم شما قابل دریافت است مسخره اینکه این خدای موهوم با بشر هم حرف زده باشد و پیغمبر هم فرستاده باشد و کتابش هم پر از اشتباهات علمی و عقلی و اخلاقی باشد

[803arash]

@kasra20giv1 ....آفرین...با کمترین کلمات بهترین مفهوم را رساندی ...بیشتر بنویس....قربانت...

[kuroshe1]

man inja mokhalefam, shoma az rahe nazm be khalegh pey mibarid, shoma hame harfhayetan amanteghi nist, makhsusan dar morede khoda, ama shoma harfhaye manteghi ham darid.

[tamarkis3000]

albate kesi monkere vojode ie afaridegar nist. moshkel ba tarif e khoda va zehni'at e mardom az khodast ke on ham nash'at gerefte az adiani e ke mote'alegh be hezaran sal e pish hastan va ba tarz e fekreshon dar on zaman ie khoda bara khodeshon tasavor kardan. amsale man hargez nemigim khoda vojod nadare balke migim khoda ie iahod va eslam va masihiat va gheire vojod nadare. age khob be hamin film gosh koni shaiad behtar manzoram ro motevajeh beshi.

[dolatabadi2]

man tamam sokhanane in mard bozorg ra mo be mo ghsh kardeham ta beha harfe na rabt nashenideam drood bar to.

[bahador666]

ma ye irani didim ke mozakhraf nmige onam ostad MOSHIRI e ey val karet dorost

[tamarkis3000]

albate ostad foladvand ro iademon nare. harchand ziad fosh midad vali ba ie karesh kheili hal mikardam chon ziad ba tarikh kar nadasht ke in moslmona bahane biaran tarikh ghalate. mostaghim khod e ghoran o tafsir mikard.

[albundy0007]

درود بر استاد گرامی مشیری.