EPA Toughens Stance on Greenhouse Gas Emissions

[JonThm]

Global carbon dioxide is pegged at two PPM by plants doing photosynthesis. Any local readings higher than this do not matter. It is the global number which would affect the weather. And there carbon dioxide has remained static for 200 years. If you doubt this, kill are reset your high school biology idiot!

[JonThm]

Like converts water into helium oxygen, and a load of heat. Power with no toxic death.

[JonThm]

High school biology predicts correctly that green plants have converted all man is carbon dioxide into life. So there is no more carbon dioxide in the air. That is all lie from nuclear power.

[JonThm]

All man's carbon dioxide is taken in by the of plants alive in the C and on land today. Harvard University says there has been no increase in free carbon dioxide for 200 years

[JonThm]

Carbon dioxide has remained static at two parts per 1,000,000 for 200 years, due to the effect of green plants. Man made global warming and climate change are fiction by nuclear power.

[MrHicks091]

Wow, the ignorance of some posters is absolutely astounding. #1, not all Greenhouse gases are created equal-on a ppm basis, CO2 has 10 times the IR absorbing ability of water vapor, & methane has 20 times the IR absorbing ability of CO2. #2, Carbon Sinks currently account for 100% of natural CO2 emissions & 40% of human emissions. It's the remaining 60% of human emissions that have pushed up atmospheric CO2 levels over the last century. That's basic chemistry & physics.

[MrHicks091]

@feelzthelove Actually according to all the satellite data I've seen, CO2 is very well mixed & uniform across the planet-at the tropospheric level. Obviously point sources of CO2 (like power stations) will generate more CO2 at ground level, but it mixes well in the atmosphere.

[Darthbelal]

what a waste of time. We're recording the emission of a harmless gas. The EPA is a good idea, right up to the part where bureaucrats start mandating silly things for it to do.

[MrHicks091]

@feelzthelove I could argue the same thing about any law you care to mention. Telling me I can't kill you means taking away my freedom to commit murder. What you're arguing for here, though, is the freedom to have the oil & coal industries continue to pick your pocket.

[jabrams45]

dude, man, don't listen to oil companies, like ExxonMobil. They just want to gain popularity.

[Dayversion]

• "Exxonmobil corp., the world's largest crude oil refiner, supports taxing carbon dioxide as the most efficient way of curbing greenhouse gas emissions, its chief executive said.

"As a businessman, it's hard to speak favourably about any new tax, but a carbon tax strikes me as a more direct, more transparent and more effective approach," Rex Tillerson, CEO of the Irving, Texas based company, said Thursday at the Woodrow Wilson international center for scholars in Washington."

[judomagyar]

IT IS ARROGANT TO BE SO SELF CONFIDENT, THAT YOU think THAT YOU KNOW THE TRUTH.

We have a hundred times more H2O in the air than we have CO2. Isn't it logical that the H2O has hundred times more effect that the CO2? Besides, only 3% of the CO2 in the atmosphere is man made. Now, how is it not arrogant to say that we determine climate by decreasing the 3% to 2% of the 0.036%CO2 in the air?

Math 101....

[duck24x]

The EPA needs to get FAR tougher on anti-environmental criminals: oil, coal, nuclear power companies, toxic-waste producers. These unpatriotic multi-trillion-dollar corporate-welfare-loving anti-American freedom-hating CEOs have caused millions to become unemployed & impoverished by stealing & poisoning our private property, by unconstitutionally taking away personal rights to consume pot, by stopping us from getting jobs in solar & wind power.

[JonThm]

The only importanrt green hoiuse gas is water vapour.

[MrHicks091]

@JonThm Actually, water vapor is the *weakest* of all the known Greenhouse Gases-on a parts per million basis. It is a major component of the *normal* Greenhouse Effect (the thing that keeps our planet habitible) only by dint of its massive volume in the atmosphere (1% to 3%, as compared to only 0.03% of CO2). Of course, water vapor isn't the Greenhouse gas that's currently rising at unprecedented rates.

[JonThm]

@MrHicks091 At about 10% water vapour against 0.0002% CO2, water vapour is the only Game in town. Worse still

the level of CO2 has remained static for 200 years. GW is nuclear PR. But p thelants have sun thek all man's emissions.

[MrHicks091]

@JonThm Wow mate, if you're gonna regurgitate utter false-hoods as *fact*, then there really is no point. #1, the maximum amount of water vapour in the atmosphere is 3% (not 10% as you claim), & current levels of CO2 are almost 0.04%. #2 A single molecule of CO2 absorbs about 10 times more IR radiation than a single molecule of water vapor. #3 Current CO2 levels are higher than at any point in the last 7 million years, & have risen by more than 100ppm over pre-industrial levels.

[MrHicks091]

@JonThm #4 the ocean & plants account for only 40% of man-made CO2 emissions (& 100% of natural emissions), which means that about 2-3 billion tonnes of CO2 is getting into the atmosphere *every year*. Seriously, the only person pushing PR is you-how long you been working for the coal/oil industry buddy?

[ezze902]

Seriously, what a joke. The U.S. isnt going "Green" anytime soon.  If it does it will be only for show, actual emissions will never be accounted for nor is it that easy to measure.

[skeletonmom]

If your company burns a certain amount of coal, you have to report it...

You have to report it? How are we making sure those companies are reporting it? Are we just hoping they will freely do this? Or, is there an impartial (with no conflict of interest) watchdog group with legal power in place to do this?

[vechorik]

@skeletonmom -- Ron Paul says end the EPA and pollution laws should be TOUGHER!

/watch?v=XsZ6-2BdpIQ

Learn about United Nations Agenda 21 which is the true agenda behind the carbon tax.

[rainin]

OK!so you guys found a way to track the amounts of green house gasses being emitted in order to do what?Slow down global warming?

Common sense tells me it should be stopped entirely;but hey that's just me.

[2xtream]

Clean Coal is a JOKE! IT does not exist!

Carbon Dioxide is a gas that plants breath, humans exhale and makes life on earth.

It is Carbon Monoxide that is the poison gas that comes out of your tail pipe on your car. But the Government wants to curb the very gas that life needs to exist! This is such a HOAX and SCAM I cant believe it has gone on this long! Obama and Al Gore both are co Owners in the very Corp that will issue the Carbon Credits that the world will be forced to use. What a joke!

[fhavenger09]

LMAO! we'll we'll lose 20% of our total gdp but we'll learn!!! LMAO! not a wise option!

[truthadvocate]

The EPA is a joke. It's just another coercive government monopoly that destroys jobs & freedom. If they were serious about reducing pollution they would take the "tragedy of the commons" seriously & auction off public property to private citizens & businesses. People take care of property they own. They would also allow free market agencies to investigate & report on environmental impacts. Competitive services are much more effective than government.

[Daniel44125]

Rome is burning and the Communists worry about CO2

[spikesmth]

At least in this case the Communists seem to care about mankind. Markets fail sometimes, the perfect market assumptions are almost entirely flawed when you look that the corporate, monopolistic competition we actually live under.

[Daniel44125]

Yeah sure. The communist care about mankind. CO2 is not pollution. Its about taxation and income redistribution. Why don't you look into what industries are lobbying for these laws. PG&E loves carbon regulations. I wonder why? Monopolies only exist with the help of government.

[spikesmth]

I think you have this backward... the Government rules at the pleasure of the (near)monopolies. Why do you think the banks got bailed out so easily?

[Daniel44125]

The government creates monopolies as I said before. Read alternative economics. Not just the BS thy spew in school. The banks got bail outs because they are corrupt. Much of the money went to helping banks buy up smaller banks. Much of the regulations are basically fees big companies pay to make it harder for smaller companies to break into the market. Read some Ludwig von Mises. Hayek and many other Austrian economists.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 Hence, if we don't have a truly libertarian choice, and government takes away their money in reverse socialism and gives it to fanatic extremist CEOs & black budget military corporations for wars that many citizens don't want (and does no good for wars I DO want but that the gov't won't carry out), then the only solution is to fight back with socialism to get our money & property & freedom back.

[Daniel44125]

I don't think I got it backward. The bank bailouts are a perfect example of how criminal corporations use corrupt politicians to bail them out and allow competitors to fail. Finance their swallowing of smaller firms. A perfect example. Health insurance companies and state regulations keeping them from competing with out of state insurance companies. Who do you think benefits from these regulations? Who do you think lobbied for them?

[spikesmth]

Actually it's my last undergrad semester in Economics so don't drop names just to impress me. It seems to me, that through all my fancy book-learning, I've been able to conclude (as I mentioned prev) that the assumptions of a perfect market are flawed and therefore MOST of what the Austrians and Chicagoans talk about is only marginally correct. Not that my buddy Keynes is right, but the Free Market mantra relies on theories that aren't backed up empirically.

Markets fail, government can help.

[Daniel44125]

It wasn't to impress you. Keynes was a block head. I think the current crisis and the fact that most Keynesians didn't see it coming proves they were wrong. Austrian economists have been forecasting the trend for years. The idiot Keynesians are making it worst. Printing money and regulations are their only fix. They blame lack of regulations when it was regulations combined with the flawed fractional reserve banking. Print print print. Enjoy your hyperinflation

[spikesmth]

I think Keynes (well, his Neo-Keynesian follow-uppers) was on to something, but I didn't say he is "right." The fact that you consider the Austrians to be "alternative" doesn't give me confidence that you really know what you're talking about. I still haven't seen you cite one source to me and your gross mischaracterization of Keynesian economics is disappointing.

[Daniel44125]

Read alternative sources. quit being a sheep, unless you are applying for Monica Lewinsky's old job.

[spikesmth]

NAME A SOURCE. What organizations take global climate measurements besides NASA, NOAA, IPCC, and others like them?

Show me some alternative science "studies" that conclude that GHGs are nothing to worry about and that the environment can handle whatever industry throws at it. For science sake, all "we" want to do is make people consider their carbon footprints so we can prevent environmental collapse down the line.

[monkeybudge]

I haven't really got a problem with your position but would you stop calling people "sheep" just because they have a different world view to your own .

[Daniel44125]

Would you prefer lemmings? People believe whatever is on the news or what some politician feeds them makes them a sheep, not because their view is different then mine.

[monkeybudge]

I cant speak for americans but i dont personally know anyone who does not view politicions with scepticism . We (irish) dont have a news system like yours either . No Glen Becks , Hannitys or Olbermanns

[monkeybudge]

And no , i wouldn't prefer lemmings ! i would prefer you made your point with out being rude

[duck24x]

@spikesmth You tell 'em, spikesmith! Daniel44125 = an extremist & terrorist. All the so-called evils of communism are due entirely to fanatical cultural nationalism by the Chinese, the Soviets, the Khmer Rouge. They burned Western musical instruments. WTF does THAT have to do with paying workers equal to what factory owners get paid?! Answer: nothing.

[trickmastermonkey]

if Marxist theory is correct, then Capitalism will have Socialized babies, and those babies in turn will give birth to Commie bastards!! ohh make it stop, this neverending cycle of hypocrisy !!!

[Daniel44125]

The Communist in office already knows people are suffering. Maybe he needs more people to lose work and get frustrated so he can have his Communist revolution.

[spikesmth]

If it weren't for the consumerist Capitalists who inflated our living standards unsustainably for decades, maybe we wouldn't be in the situation where pollution might be at a critical point. But this isn't about blame, this is about holding ourselves accountable to ourselves, our children and the earth itself.

[Daniel44125]

Capitalism didn't cause this crisis. Read Meltdown by Thomas Woods Jr. and Read Housing Boom and Bust by Thomas Sowell. Global warming is a scam anyways. I have plenty of videos on my channel of documentaries from people that worked for the U.N saying it was a scam and they said it was highly politicized.

[spikesmth]

I didn't say global warming... I said a critical point of pollution. You see, basic environmental science tells us that the environmental system can only sustain a certain level of damage continuously. The data I've seen suggest we are far beyond that point and our industrial processes need to be FAR more responsible about their use of natural resources.

This has little to do with housing bubbles or finance, this is about industrial development and energy use.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 Capitalists are selfish babies who never want to take responsibility for their actions, for polluting other people's property far more than their fair share. Monsanto illegally dumps its own genetically modified seeds onto farmers' lands, then illegally tries to steal farmers' land & money with frivolous lawsuits, when farmers ought to sue Monsanto. I have nothing against GMO, but capitalists don't care about property rights & law except only for those who do the least work.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 How about, instead of just yapping books that - even if they are good books - can't possibly apply to current situations NOW, you do some CALCULATIONS OF YOUR OWN? How about more than just reading, you DO? You take political action, like Ralph Nader & Greenpeace have done? THAT is an even MORE important form of learning.

[Daniel44125]

More folks would lose their jobs due to stiffer regulations. CO2 is not pollution.

[spikesmth]

CO2 can reach toxic levels at which point it IS pollution. If we keep destroying rainforests (the largest land CO2 sinks) we diminish the earth's ability to process the CO2 back through the carbon cycle and it accumulates in the atmosphere which affects the acidity of the oceans and climate patterns.

Stiffer regulations create incentives for industry to invest in sustainable technologies/practices which will employ many people indefinitely.

[Daniel44125]

Tell that to Spain. Green jobs haven't appeared for them. CO2 reaches toxic levels. Its a trace gas. Its not even close to toxic levels. CO2 does not change acidity of oceans. It has not effected climate patterns. Humans produce almost no CO2 in comparison with nature. Not to mention it isn't the biggest greenhouse causing gas. That is water vapor. Would you like to regulate and tax that too?

[spikesmth]

Sources?

[Daniel44125]

Where are yours? I am not here to educate you. CO2 is a trace gas. Its measured in parts per million. There are many graphs out there. CO2 is only 3% of greenhouse causing gases.

[spikesmth]

Ok, according to the EIA, Total Energy-Related Carbon Dioxide Emissions by End-Use Sector, CO2 emissions have nearly tripled since 1950. 2007: 1,633M metric tons.

According to NOAA, 2005-2009 CO2 concentration has increased from 377-386ppm (increased by ~2.5% in only 4 yr)... but the growth rate trend for the last 40years has been steadily increasing. So you tell me, is this sustainable for your grandchildren, say 100 years?

[Daniel44125]

There is no proof it causes global warming. No proof. Humans cause 3% of CO2 and the rest is caused by nature. In total that accounts for 3% of greenhouse gases. We are pretty insignificant in terms of changing climate. Humans do far worst to hurt the environment. Water vapor is 95% of greenhouse gases. You should read alternative point of views instead of government propaganda. I spent all my life listening to their lies. Read the alternative science.

[spikesmth]

Well since you've not mentioned a single source, and can only repeat 3%, 3%, 3%... I have no reason to believe that the "alternative" (read ignoring science) points of view are credible.

Wiki: It is estimated that volcanoes release about 130-230 million tonnes (145-255 million tons) of CO2 into the atmosphere each year. This is about a factor of 1000 smaller than the sum of the other natural sources and about factor of about 100 smaller than the sources from human activity. (1/100th of humans)

[Daniel44125]

Volcanoes aren't the only source of naturally occurring CO2. I am not going to list sources on info I have read over the course of a few years. I am not here to educate you. Use google. Look for graphs that give natural GHG's and human caused GHG's. Its not ignoring science. As I stated before scientists that worked for the U.N and quit because the U.N. put them on their so called list of 2000 scientists that say the debate is over, they had to file suit to get their names off.

[spikesmth]

I never said humans were the only or even primary source of GHGs. But, if we think economically for a moment...

Assume nature produces/absorbs roughly the same amount of GHGs period over period... this is the Fixed "cost". Humans however, produce GHGs on TOP of that we will call Variable "cost". Surely you must understand that the goal would be to minimize variable cost. On top of that, we are increasing the fixed cost by reducing the rate of absorption.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 Only after you & all the deniers read all the source material: peer-reviewed journals & add up all the variables mathematically on a computer the way NASA & the NAS have done instead of just randomly "prove by proclamation" that "humans are pretty insignificant" blah blah blah. Add it up. If you want to attack a hoax, attack "terrorism". There's no such thing.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x I am no fan of Monsanto's so called practices but global warming is a sham. Terrorism does exist you moron. Suck my capitalist dick communist trash. I have family that died because of your Marxist ideology and government power. You utopia dreaming morons go move to Cuba.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 And anthropogenic global warming exists you fucking subhuman shithead worthless to society. Like all AGW-deniers, you can't prove your point, so you just name-call. And, you don't even rationally explain the nuanced points about Marxism that are good & bad. You immediately show off your freedom-hating undemocratic fascism & fanaticism. Patriotic socialist soldiers should proudly kill scum like you to win fair elections in the USA.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x There is nothing good about Marxism. Why would I debate with an inbred impotent brained retard like you. Marxist cunt. I am not a fascist either moron read a book they followed Marx too. Idiot Marx and freedom don't belong int he same sentence you early ejaculation  mistake. News flash idiot you can't be patriotic and socialist in America.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 You got any mathematical or scientific proof for your psychotic theories, you psycho? Have you ever even READ Karl Marx's "Das Capital" in order to critique? No. You are just like any other fanatic religionist. You obviously don't know a thing about loyalty, sacrifice, and supporting those (Greens, Socialists) who fight for YOUR freedom & money, you ungrateful piece of shit.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x There has been many refutes of global warming mathematically and by a twenty year observation by professor Richard Lizden of MIT.

Marxist idiots don't fight for my money just the right to steal it from me idiot. You are the people that don't read counter arguments or critics. I read Das Full of Shit. Its an economic fallacy. Try reading Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk's critic of Karl Marx's works. He utterly destroyed it. To bad Marx died before the book came out.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 And Marx was a man of action. When you honor Marx & Lenin as the courageous revolutionaries that they were, fighting against the massive poverty that kings & monarchs forced people into, slaving away 18 hours a day in hideously unsafe conditions - the same way you undoubtedly gush over George Washington, who fought far less oppression (oh, boo hoo, a tax on tea), only THEN should anyone listen to your psychotic bullshit.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x Go read the book you dogmatic marxist fuck. Morons like you follow lies likes its religion. You losers never accomplish anything in life. You only know how to suck off of the real producers.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 That proves what a fucking fanatic extremist you are, just like the christians & the muslims who gotta pray 50 billion times a day and are like robots that repeat the same meaningless useless dogma. Yeah.. and you expect people to learn and read YOUR shit? Daniel44125= poster boy for deliberate ignorance & hatred of reading & learning.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x OK.....you moron. I suggested you read a book instead of blindly embracing failed philosophies as if they were a religion so you make a dumb statement like that? You got anything original? You making a statement that the American Revolution was about a petty tea tax alone proves your lack of historical knowledge.

I will gladly be considered a terrorist to the an insect like you. Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x Read the books I suggested. Read Human Action. I read Karl Marx. My family immigrated from a communist country. I know personally what happens when unnatural theories like Karl Marx's are put into practice. Only mentally impaired or extremely naive would embrace Karl Marx. Blaming Stalin and Khmer Rouge for the fall of communism is a stupid statement in its self. Karl Marx and Engels both called for extermination of Slavic people and societies that have no yet achieved capitalism.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 Bullshit. Where in "Das Capital" do Marx & Engels (who edited the book) call for killing Slavic people? And, even if they did - so what? So did all the big pro-capitalist industrialists of the time & all the pro-slavery and anti-feminist fanatics, too, only a LOT worse.Nah. You're full of shit. You've never read Karl Marx, because you wouldn't excrete the shit that you have if you ever really did.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x I never said it was in Das Capital

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x You are obviously delusional.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x Which brings me back to my point of only the mentally impaired or extremely naive would embrace Marx. I think I figured out which one of the two you are.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x Read Eugen von Böhm Bawerk's critic of Marx. It was a direct response to Das Capital. If you suggest me reading a book (Which I already have) you should be open to reading a book that directly responds to the one you suggested.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x The socialists of Eastern Germany, the self-styled German Democratic Republic, spectacularly admitted the bankruptcy of the Marxian dreams when they built a wall to prevent their comrades from fleeing into the non-socialist part of Germany.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 I'm sorry (if) they did that, but don't go blaming the Socialist or Communist Party of the USA. Obviously, that's a German thing - i.e. cultural/nationalist problem - not a socialist thing. Along with the Greens & Libertarian parties, all non-Demopublican parties are suppressed, oppressed, and denied fair & equal access to ballots & not given the MASSIVE free media that the Republicrat dictatorship party gets.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x Karl Marx thought he was criticizing capitalism. He didn't even know what capitalism was. He was describing mercantilism not free enterprise capitalism. He was just confused as the common man is today about economics. Try reading some Austrian economics.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 Karl Marx knew more about capitalism than all the capitalists in the world combined. He knew about slavery, about mercantilism, about feudalism. He researched the hell out of all these different political & economic systems. He knew more about his current world without the benefit of the internet than you or I know about our world WITH the internet.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 You've got zero proof for any of your economic paranoid theories. You just scare people with your lies & bullshit, causing the bigger corporations to poison and destroy the private property of small businesses, such as farmers, and poor individuals. You capitalist extremists are responsible for big government intrusion that give unequal treatment in courts of law & forces poor people into prison.

[duck24x]

@Daniel44125 Even Karl Marx's "Das Capital" doesn't apply in EVERY aspect to the world now, such as employers' power being considered proportional to the # of employees instead of inversely as it is today. How about also using logic: most importantly: in an idealistic libertarian world, big government wouldn't force me to court over trivial laws that invade a person's privacy & then force me to choose jail or give up all my $ to a lawyer.

[Daniel44125]

@duck24x Your ramblings make no sense. Books written in the last century on economics based on logical observations don't make sense but books written in the 19th century by a person that never lived in the closest thing to a free enterprise capitalist country at the time do? Please I can't take anymore of you irrational insane ramblings. Go seek help. Take your pills or something. I didn't know mental hospitals gave internet access to the sick.