i wont buy anything but a yamaha for my life im very brand loyal they have been good to me since my first one so i wont get anything els. and why would i want something for dessert racing when i live in the north east the closest thing we have anywere around here to a desser is a sand pit hahaha
i am a two stoke man and ive always rode two strokes but i just got a brand new yz450f and the thing revs like a two stoke and is way better on gas and the thing is just plain fast
@colonblast420 They rev a lot higher than the 2 strokes. But is it as fast as a CR500AF or a KX500 which will both do over 100mph and are absolute torque monsters.
@motox747r The bike Cardboard Robot KX 500 runs up to speeds of 125.854 miles per hour. Change the stock gearing on a CR500 (which is geared for about 70mph standard) and 65hp will easily get you to 100mph. 16kmh (104.44mph) KX500 watch?v=aLsGHVvQzLw 171kph (106.94mph) KX500 run /watch?v=GzYIl1E95Hk&feature=related Sorry could not find videos of a CR500 going that fast, but Motor Cycle Mechanics tested one a few years back and changing the gearing got them 115mph.
@motox747r Uhm I didn't. The KX500 is standard gearing & hits 106.94mph. You said a CR500 couldn't hit 100mph and it can while still hitting a 10 second standing 1/4, do you want a video of that too. It can with higher gearing and will still out accelerate a CRF450.
So it CAN do 100mph. People play with their gearing all the time high gearing for long tracks shorter gearing for tight technical tracks. The KX does it without a gearing change & the CR goes down a few teeth on the rear sprocket.
@Scootertuner1000 I am simply stating facts not arguing. No motocross bike will go 100 mph without modifications. A 10 second cr500 isn't even a motocross bike anymore.
@motox747r An unmodified KX500 will do over 100mph without even changing the gearing. Watch the video, that is fact. A CR500 that does 115mph just by losing 5 teeth off the rear sprocket is also really unmodified, that is a fact too. But if you consider changing the s[rocket modification, which it isn't, then well use the KX as the example capable of way more than 100mph with no mods, not even gearing. The old Maico 490 was also capable of over 100mph those are the facts, no argument
@Scootertuner1000 no it isnt as fast not even close and idc because why do i need to do over 100 mph on a dirt bike i have an r6 to do that on haha. i was never putting 2 strokes down i love them they are 100% better then any 4 stroke out there if the still made a 500 2 stroke that what i would have got but they dont so i got a 450 is there a problem with that and i still have my yz 250 and i bought another 125 so yes i think 2 strokes are better to but i bought a 450 because i wanted to
@colonblast420 KTM and Maico as well as ATK make huge 2 stroke dirt bikes. I would want a 100mph plus dirt bike for desert racing. Maico/ATK 700 is a fantastic choice for that. I didn't say there was a problem with it. I just asked a question.
@Scootertuner1000 i wont buy anything but a yamaha for my life im very brand loyal they have been good to me since my first one so i wont get anything els. and why would i want something for dessert racing when i live in the north east the closest thing we have anywere around here to a desser is a sand pit hahaha
@ilikepie5720 Wow you are really grasping at straws aren't you. Not a question. Of course I know that compression creates heat. It is quite obvious you do not have a clue what you are talking about. I am not going to respond to any more of your infantile comments.
@ilikepie5720 I just looked at your profile, the first time since we have been discussing this. You are only 19, you grew up with 4 strokes and learned how to ride on 4 strokes, of course you have a preference for them. Learn how to ride a 2 stroke, you will be far more successful with it.
@Scootertuner1000, I appreciate your input, but I am fully aware and have been for some time the advantages and disadvantages of both. My point and question is how could anyone think that 120 year old 4 stroke tech that was never competitive with 2 strokes, now say that the 4 strokes are superior when the ONLY thing that changed is the rules? For someone to say that 2 strokes will someday be uncompetitive because of rule changes, then say because of it, 2 strokes are inferior, is assanine.
@sSTRE3TDR3EMZz94 damn it thats gay. hey avoidthedog..you should re upload without any music or with a different song. but please no 009 Sound System.
@motomagnet09 lol, im not the guy who uploaded it. ive just seen this video before when it had sound and the band that was playing was Escape The Fate
Ever ridden an older Honda CR500 or CR480R or a YZ 490 or IT 490? or a KX500?
Freaking scary ass big bore two strokes... I had a CR 500 and a CR 480R...the 480R was actually faster than the 500.. It was scary evil..Like it was possessed or something...
Then I got a a Honda XR600 Enduro...which was four stroke.... HUGE Low end power and would climb anything you threw at it... a different animal but as far as the top end was... the CR500 or 480 ate it for breakfast, lunch, dinner and a midnight snack...
im not sure how the 250 does against 450f. But i do know my yz250f had a step up on my cr125 that was punched out .050 and had a 6th gear. Cr was a lot easier to throw around and jump but my yz250f has the power right when you need it. You can nut it in 4th or 5th and still break the tire lose.And it sounds scary instead of annoying!
@RovingLandRover If you can handel the power of a 500 2 stroke it will smoke a 4 stroke no problem. Even if its a 2 decade old heavy meteal frame under suspened piece of shit
@RovingLandRover just remeber mr. 4 stroke when you fry a piston on a 2 stroke ur only out for a few hours if you have the parts and back runnin again as for the four stroke your done for the weekend
@RovingLandRover No shit the 450 has an 80 percent larger displacement and I know of plenty of 2 stroke 250s who can smoke any 450 out there. All things equal, 250 2 stroke versus 250 4 stroke, its not even a competition, 2 strokes all the way!
@RovingLandRover good one, for the 250 2ts size, it still keeps up with the 450f and has basically the same power. like to see a 450f against a cr500,hahahahahahahahah. even if they made a 500 4 stroke the 2 stroke will fuckin DOMINATE
@RovingLandRover your retarted the two strokes kills a 4 strokes preformance wise. Its why you need a huge engine size advantage to keep up with them 250 2t vs 250 4t depending on rider the 2 stroke always wins.
@RovingLandRover how can u possibly say faggot 2 jokes 2 strokes are harder to ride than 4 strokes so if anything its the 4 strokes that are faggots because only faggots ride them!
It basically boils down to this, they both have their advantages and disadvantages by their very nature. But, why does the 2 stroke HAVE to have extra disadvantages hung on them just to allow the 4 strokes a competitive edge? Let them race size for size ands THEN decide. No one can argue, which machine has a superior engine, the 2 stroke makes much more power and torque by it's principle and if it wasn't true, why does the 4 stroke need a double displacement advantage?
@Revanche2strokes You either tune the 4T for hp or you tune it for torque, actually that is the same with both 4T & 2 T engines, it depends on port/valve timing. The way 250F's aretuned for HP. They get their torque advantage from the size advantage, not from the fact that they are 4 strokes. Compare the torque produced and where in the rev range and the HP produced and also where in the rev range between a CRF250 & a YZ250, the YZ produces more torque & more HP and at lower RPM than the CRF
Hey Jakeshift, contrary to what you hear and read, look at some articles where you will get the REAL truth. Read some Dirt Bike mag tests where they run a new YZ250F against a new YZ250. It's not even close, the 2 stroke smokes the 250F every time and it always will. It's much, much faster and generates more HP and torque. The basic engine principle is superior by nature. The biggest benefit will come at rebuild time. $300.00 for the 2 stroke and $4000.00 or more for the 4 stroke.
does anyone still seem to not understand its personal preference whether u like 2 stroke or 4 stroke?? i ride my 125 and i love, i ridden some of my friends 250F's and i like them too..
@RovingLandRover dude look at the size difference..? its a 450 and 250. the piston is about 20 mm difference, know ur bikes b4 u go saying 2 strokes suck. i bet my rm 250 will beat any 250 4 stroke cuz it alwaws does
Everyone has a preference and everyone should be allowed to ride what they want. But, the competitions should be fair so people can make a decision based on fairness. How many people read a test and say they want the 4 stroke 450 because it makes more torque than the 250 2 stroke. Well, no kidding, it's almost twice the size. The 250 2 should rave the 250 4, THEN let the reader decide. If 4 strokes are so superior, why wasn't everyone racing them from the get-go, they've been around forever!
RovingLR, I ride a 250 KX and have only 2 strokes. We tried the 4 stroke thing. Too heavy and way to expensive. BUT, my point is. Everyone automatically pits the 2 stroke against the 4 stroke that is TWICE the size or close to it. This should prove which machine is better. If it has to race against machines much bigger, ask yourself why. The reason the Japanese do it, is because they want to kill the 2 stroke off, we do it, because we are conditioned to. I am trying to change this "conditioning"
@RovingLandRover ive got an rm 250 2t and a yz450f and whilst they are completely different bikes to ride there is not a big difference in overall power, just the way it is delivered.
@smokeweedtilidie Oh really, you mean the 450 cc makes more torque than the 250 cc bike? Wow, a bike with almost twice the size and the horsepower is almost the same but the torque is not? You try racing against a guy with your legs tied together, this would be the same kind of disadvantage the 2 stroke has to compete with.
@Revanche2strokes its all about the rider, i dont agree with the 'legs tied together' bit, if you can keep the lighter 2 stroke up in the revs then its just as quick as the 450. and i know this for a fact from personal experience. what do u ride?
@RovingLandRover i wouldnt say they kill 250s.. i ride a 450 now but i ride a friends steel framed 04 yz250 and i was turning faster lap times than on my properly setup 450f, it was more of a tight track so the 250 had an advantage but the 450 is obviously faster power wise. both can be just as fast as the other
@avoidthedog Depends, my friends isn't used to 4 stokes, so he cant ride anything but a 2 stroke! Me i prefer a 4 stroke, no lack of power anywhere! Maybe you just miss clutched with your 450f? cause even REED CARMICHEL AND STEWART say 2 strokes are passed...
@avoidthedog why compare a 250 with a 450 the 450 will have more power at the bottom anyways because its more cubic inches ^^^^ 450 2 stroke vs 450 4 stroke is what it should be :p and the 4stroke is smoked
It was once the king of the Open class. But then the kingdom slowly withered away. The CR500R remains as a current artifact in the fossil record, showing us how much dirt bikes have changed in 10 or so years. Compared to modern MX bike, it’s cumbersome and sometimes scary. At least it’s less of a brute than the KX500. The one area where 500cc two-strokes still have a place is in the desert and going up steep, sandy hills.
Sure the 500 two stroke puts down a good 8hp on a modern 450f, but a 450 is producing SIGNIFICANTLY better power delivery that is much more beneficial FOR ACTUALLY RACING.
Thats with an old 2-stroke motor, the yz250 is putting out 48 hp stock. The new yamaha puts down alsmost 54hp. Yes they a bit faster, but im having more fun on my yz250. They also make 295cc big bore kits that help bridge the gap
@avoidthedog True but the 450 has almost 100% capacity advantage. i want to go back to 250cc against 250cc regardless of whether 2 or 4 stroke, that would be fair racing.
@Scootertuner1000 that is not fair racing, capacity and positive displacement are completely different. Technically a 250 2t has the positive displacement advantage.
@ilikepie5720 The way the 2 stroke makes up for it's lack of efficiency in each individual power stroke is to make twice as many power strokes as the 4 stroke. The whole positive displacement argument goes right out of the window when you look at the thermal efficiency of each engine. The 2 stroke is much less thermally efficient, but wins out slightly for a given capacity because it produces 2 times as many power strokes. That does not however make it twice as powerful.
@ilikepie5720 Positive displacement was thought up by 4 stroke mfgs so that they wouldn't have to compete on an even playing field. It completely ignores the fact that a 4 stroke engine's individual power strokes are much more efficient than those of a 2 stroke (because there aren't gaping holes in the side of the cylinder) giving 4 strokes a much greater power sustain in the power stroke. Also 4 strokes rev higher because they produce less heat. Fair racing would be 250 against 250 etc.
@Scootertuner1000 i think positive displacement is how much gas (molecular state) comes out the ass end per equal strokes, and although four stroke have a more efficient power stroke, there are three strokes the piston is merely coasting, 75% of it's combustion cycle, versus the 50% of a 2 stroke.
@ilikepie5720 Or to put it another way every 2nd stroke as opposed to every 4th stroke, hence the terms 2 stroke and 4 stroke. 2 strokes do not have nearly as efficient power strokes, by a factor of about 40% which means that 2 strokes only have a power advantage in total of about 15-20%. Given that fact at most 4 strokes should be allowed a 15 to 20% capacity advantage, not almost 100%. 4 strokes make up for that by being able to rev to ca 300rpm more which produces still more power.
@Scootertuner1000 my point it is that equal amounts of exhaust gases come out of the exhaust per four strokes, or divide the engine capacity by the number of strokes(per classes). It's up to the manufacturer to improve the design, not the displacement's fault. And AMA never banned 2 smokes from the pro's. Yamaha fielded a YZ 250 a few months ago, they just aren't competitive enough at that level. The only rule was positive displacement imposed by the AMA (450F vs 250 2t : 250f vs 125 2t).
@ilikepie5720 Your point is wrong it was a swindle perpetrated by Honda and other 4 stroke mfgs. who wanted to be able to sell road going bikes based on the reputation built by racing. Now that Maico and KTM & other Euro mfgs. have 2 stroke 250s that will easily beat the 450 4 strokes, they're close to 60hp 250cc 2 strokes, the 4 stroke mfgs. said they would pull out of racing altogether if they allowed any 2 strokes, so now they won't even allow 2 stroke 250cc to race against 4 strokes 450s
@Scootertuner1000 you're a dumbass, my point is wrong? How? And road bikes need to be sold by dirt? You know honda has a successful road racing history and uses that to prove it's point because a good dirt bike doesn't make a good road bike, both have to be proven winners. A four stroke thumper can be designed to make 60hp, but why sacrifice the torque? that's why they class by displacement and not hp, torque is a big factor also you seem to overlook in your point.
@ilikepie5720 I have not insulted you once. Your point is wrong because positive displacement is a fucking lie you fucking retarded motherfucker. It is a lie made up by 4 stroke mfgs. to justify their almost 100% capacity advantage that's how it's wrong you cunt. There are plenty of places where dual purpose bikes (road going dirt bikes) are very popular, but they can't sell 2 T for road use so they insisted that 2 strokes not be allowed to race against them.
@ilikepie5720 Nobody had a problem racing 2 Ts until emissions laws got so strict they couldn't sell them for road use. They want to race what they can sell for road use so made up the bullshit positive displacement and when 2 strokes of 250cc caught up with 450s in terms of HP the 4 T mfgs threw a hissy fit and threatened to remove all sponsorship for racing unless 2 T's were banned altogether. They are not classed by displacement but positive displacement which is a croc.
@Scootertuner1000 You can't use 4 strokes on the road here in Washington State anymore, if it's an offroad bike, you're no longer allowed to convert, so much for your emissions conspiracy. 2 strokes are still allowed to race in ama, they can't place high enough to make the main. Positive displacement ("bullshit" point) was actually made by engineers, not manufacturer's R&D depts. and still widely used, including myself as a student, it's used to measure things other than just engines dipshit.
@ilikepie5720 They have simply tightened up the laws concerning converting X bikes to road use bikes. You can however buy a ton of dual purpose/enduro bikes and super moto bikes which are allowed for use on the road, there are no 2 strokes among them. You can't do it without insulting can you (not a question). Every time I try to have a conversation with you you resort to insults, that shows how weak your argument is. I am an engineer and have worked for companies like Cosworth in England.
@Scootertuner1000 No, it shows my lack of patience with people like you, I have looked at both sides of the arguments and notice the fundamental differences between the 2 engines, you can't race just of raw displacement, everything has to be looked at, and you should know that better than anyone if you worked for cosworth. That's like saying a race built subaru using cosworth components should be allowed to race a bone stock subaru since displacement is the same, same idea in mx.
@ilikepie5720 No it shows your lack of a real argument. You don't need to insult if you have a real argument, you rely on facts, not diverting attention by insulting.
@Scootertuner1000 i apologize for the insults, but answer my question about subie vs built subie instead of diverting yourself away from answering a valid comparison question by reminding my about my vulgarity overshadowing my real argument. I've riden my friend's kx 250, and I was much faster on it than my 250f, and i'm a novice, so i don't see how they are fair, especially with him having 10 years experience on me.
@ilikepie5720 The Subarus are group N WRC cars and so can race against each other. the only ones that can't are the Cosworth WRX's as they only built 75 of them and that is no where near enough for homogolation
@ilikepie5720 The 10 year advantage is neither here nor there, we are talking about the bikes. Both bikes have the same capacity, displacement. It is fair because the KX produces more power for the same capacity without the addition of turbochargers or any other additoinal means of induction.
@Scootertuner1000 but it does in fact use a different combustion cycle, like how the subie engines are different, yet still the same, for rhetorical purposes at least. And yeah, i thought i had won that round, especially after how anti-2 stroke he was despite racing them, i still find it funny his POV changes when he gets on the team that has the2 strokes and wants to field them and updates the technology.
@ilikepie5720 He was anti 2 stroke because his job relied on it. Why do you think he went to work for KTM? Because he knows that 2 strokes are are faster.
@ilikepie5720 Ps. All that said you will notice that I have both 4 and 2T bikes and in fact I went out and bought a CRF250 last night. Not because I think it's better than my YZ, but because I love motorcycles. Hell, I have even built my own home made mopeds using a beach cruiser and an 80cc 2 stroke engine mounted into the frame (not on the rack at the back) I have built 5, I ride them for a while and sell them at a large profit.
I have also almost finished a diesel powered motorcycle.
@Scootertuner1000 Why do you care anyway? you ride a scooter for fuck's sake, and for the record, thumpers had to catch up to the two strokes first and they originally had the yz 400f face off against the 2 smoke onslaught, it was a technology change that made the 4 stroke become the new standard. KTM is in favor of the 250 vs 250, but their team manager isn't, what does that tell you, even he thinks it's a croc of shit for 250 vs 250 and he's been involved for decades in the sport.
@ilikepie5720 I ride a 4T converted from 50cc to 250cc, a 4T 50 to 150cc, a2T converted from 50cc to 110cc , a CZ 175 2T dirt bike, a Suzuki GT380 2 stroke triple, a CR500, a YZ250 and a YZF450. Really? From what I have seen in interviews, KTM and Maico team managers want 250cc against 250 etc. If you think otherwise give me a link I call myself scooter tuner because I can make 30mph scooters do 100mph. I ride more than just a scooter & my fastest bikes are 2T
@Scootertuner1000 so why is yamaha against it? they field one of the only 250 2 smokes in the SX series and they push to keep the premixers comin to the US. And Roger DeCoster, one of the biggest names in the sport, is actually against it, and guess what team he now manages? KTM. And he was a hard core 2 smoke racer. So maico is the last real die hard, but i've never seen them competing even in the amateur division where 250 vs 250 is legal.
@ilikepie5720 Yamaha is playing both side of the fence. They were, in years gone by, THE 2 stroke mfg.
They however realize which side their bread is buttered on and have had little to no development of the YZ for years while pouring tons of money into the YZF. They want to keep their hand in for the advent of clean burning direct injection 2 strokes to the masses (read Orbital Injection).
@ilikepie5720 That's odd this is from an interview DeCoster did for MXA. MXA: DO YOU THINK THAT 250 TWO-STROKES SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO RACE AGAINST 250 FOUR-STROKES?
Roger Decoster: Yes. I think it would be fine. The two-stroke makes more horsepower, but it makes it over a narrower range, while the four-stroke makes less power, but has a broad powerband. I think they are equal machines.
@ilikepie5720 Carried on from the previous post (DeCoster) The two-stroke would be better in sand and deep loam, while the four-stroke would be better on harder dirt. It takes a more talented rider to race the two-stroke and I can see where it would be difficult for most of the current 250 four-stroke riders to make the change. I'd wouldn't oppose a rule change.
@Scootertuner1000 did you even read what i wrote? 250's can race 250f's at the amatuer level. And look back to the 07/19/2010 forum posts of MXA, stating how Decoster was against it when he was with Suzuki, now that he's with KTM, he's changed his story, i find that interesting how when his company makes 2 strokes he's for it, but when he's on a thumper only line he's against it.
@ilikepie5720 We are talking about the pros not amateur. 250 can ride against 259 in the amateurs, I know that. So when you get a good new 250 2T riding against 250 4T the 2 T wins. The KTM 150 beats the 250cc 4 strokes for Christ sakes.. As far as what DeCoster said, you brought him up, not me, as if it were some kind of trump card. All I did was point out that his POV changed.
@Scootertuner1000 hell, 85cc's are 1 sec slower on lap times than the pro-am lites classes, i'm sure a skilled 85 rider could beat a 250f, and i was just using what DeCoster saidas a point, then you brought up a counterpoint using the same individual, i was merely affirming the validity of my source for his anti 250 vs 250 quote, prior to his pro-250 v 250 POV, no trump, just a point.
@ilikepie5720 "And Roger DeCoster, one of the biggest names in the sport, is actually against it, and guess what team he now manages? KTM"
That sounds very much to me like you thought you had won that round. Plus it was wrong anyway, you implied a connection between being a team manager for KTM and having that point of view, which is clearly untennable.
@Scootertuner1000 Ok, point is, you roll up to a track, you have the 2 smoke, you're gonna want to use it knowing it is a faster bike, and KTM knows that, or else they, and every 250 2t rider i know, is pushing for the rule change. 250f riders like myself know they are for the most part are impossible to beat in a flat out battle, so we're against it. I'll really make an issue out of it by making a sterling engine powered bike using a candle and ice, 250cc capacity, and complain, lol
@ilikepie5720 The 2 stroke engine is simply better, it produces way more power for a given capacity, but it takes a lot more skill to ride. You should switch to 2T, change your riding style and given that ams are allowed to race cc against cc, race a 250 2 stroke against the 250 4 strokes, you will beat them. Don't get tied to the 4 strokes because of the marketing and hype of the 4 strokes manufacturers. Choose the bike that is going to get you over the line first in a fair cc for cc race.
@Scootertuner1000 i got a thumper because i will be using the bike for as a trail bike as well as novice racer, besides my local track keeps the 250 2t's out of the novice lites class, so i'm racing other 250 thumpers or 125 2t's. After riding both, i still prefer my thumper just because of the low end, no hype, no bull, just because i prefer the power delivery characteristics over a ring-dinger's.
@ilikepie5720 a 4 stroke for a trail bike is great. Of course your 250 will have more low end than a 125 2T, it has a 100% more capacity. It is twice the size, and therefore produces more torque. Farmer Giles' tractor also has tons of torque, but that doesn't make it fast. A 2T 250 will produce more torque and more importantly more hp than a 4 stroke 250. Both are nice though. A 2T takes more skill though, which is why people who learned on 4Ts don't like em.
@Scootertuner1000 no, my thumper isn't dependent upon a pressure differential to make torque and power, the valves keep it more linear, which i prefer. I don't like having to build revs just to make power, and at the low end, the 2 stroke doesn't make that instant hit, kinda like a turbo lag, Faster yes, instant power not so much. nothing to do with capacity, but engine design. Come on Cosworth, you know that.
@ilikepie5720 Your thumper makes more torque because it has a 100% capacity advantage, pure and simple. Linear power delivery has nothing to do with torque produced. If you compare your 250f to a 250 2 stroke, the 2 stroke makes more torque at lower rpms. It is actually the 4 strokes that have the sky high rev ceiling in order to produce power, not the 2 strokes. Remember I ride both, but for different reasons. If I want fast fast fast and exciting I ride 2 t if I want relaxed I ride 4T
@ilikepie5720 It depends on the port/valve timing, where power is made. That said, a 250cc 2 stroke has more torque and more hp than a 250cc 4 stroke. A 2008 Yamaha YZ250F produces 36 hp at 11,300 rpm, while a YZ250 two-stroke makes 46.4 hp at 8500 rpm.The 4 stroke has to rev far higher to produce its hp and still produces less. Guess what? A YZ250F makes 20.1 ft lbs of torque. Are you ready? A YZ250 two stroke pumps out 30.6 foot-pounds. Those dyno charts.
@Scootertuner1000 I always thought that the 2 stroke shined in the powerband, and the thumper had the low end grunt. Then, that's comparing bikes of the same class, say 125cc 2t and a 250 4t. So looking at these charts, how is it fair to race the 250's if the 2 stroke makes more of everything at lower rpm? Strictly looking at dyno charts, I don't care for you to bore me with equal displacement garbage, you've beat that dead horse already. Numbers don't lie, racing politics do.
@ilikepie5720 It is fair, they were until recently the same class (in every class of racing). That is why you can race a 250cc 2T against a 250cc 4T, at least in the amateur classes (same size engines). Just because 4T do not produce as much power for a given CC doesn't make it unfair for them to race against 2T of the same CC. What is unfair is to give the inferior engine design a 100% advantage to make up for its lack of power. And again, you have no real argument so resort to insults.
@ilikepie5720 Yeah numbers don't lie and racing politics do. The numbers tell you that a 250cc 2T is a superior engine design. Politics tells you that it is alright to cheat and use an engine that is twice the size of your competitor, just because you chose the inferior, less powerful design.
Politics is the BS, 125 2T being in the same class as something with twice the engine size, a 250F, just because, just because the 250F produces far less power CC for CC and lb for lb.
@Scootertuner1000 what insult? i said you're beating a dead horse by stating the same point over and over again, i know your opinion on the matter, you know mine. numbers say they are similar, i say let the numbers decide what races what, I don't care if 85's race 450's, if the numbers are the same, fucking go for it. You make an engine that runs on a temp differential with a 500's power, race them. hp for hp, ft-Ib to ft-Ib.
@ilikepie5720 Telling someone they are talking garbage and beating a dead horse is insulting. I am sorry you don't like that, but it remains a fact. If I tell you you are talking garbage and beating a dead horse, would you not take that as insulting? Not really a question, of course you would. Racing HP for HP is nonsense, you can produce a really poorly performing 1000cc and race it against a 125cc because they produce the same hp? Come one now.
@Scootertuner1000 The numbers are the size of the engine. How do you ever hope to improve engine performance when you race to a horsepower limit, which is what you just advocated. That means that everyone would be stuck on the same 30hp dogs and if you produce more HP you are disqualified. True it would be a real test of rider skill, but you would never advance engine design and power output. Essentially you would have 2 wheeled NASCAR.
@ilikepie5720 In addition, I am no more "stating the same point over and over again" than you are. There's one big difference, every time I have said something, it has been born out by facts and figures, almost every time you have said something it has been false or incorrect. For example your Subaru point, or where 2 strokes and 4 strokes produce their power in the rev range or why your 250F has more torque than a 125 2T and so on and so on.
@ilikepie5720 We could discuss this forever, until you learn more about how engines work you will never get it. I am done. I will not respond to any more of your messages.
@Scootertuner1000 you just now learning that i'm sticking to my opinion? We were discussing a point, and you just wrote a break up letter. And i didn't grow up on bikes, i hang out with dirt riders who are 2 stroke only, i got the thumper for reasons stated already. Until you get off your ego, we'll never see eye to eye, 4 strokes are where the tech is invested, you know that, and it's only a matter of time now, enjoy joining the dodo bird mate.
@ilikepie5720 Don't stick by your opion just for the sake of it, that is idiotic. Look at all the eveidence and instead of trying to find eveidence that proves YOUR point of view, find what that proves the truth. I think it is you that needs to let go of your ego. You talk nonsense time after time with completely unfounded arguemnts that I have proven wrong time after time. With direct injection, 2 strokes are proving not only more powerful, which they always were, but more eco friendly too.
@Scootertuner1000 i stuck to my opinion because i think i'm right, you think you're right, maybe you should have stuck to your "i'm done replying to your messages" idea you had, because if this was an idiotic ramble i'm typing, you've made it clear that it's not worth your time, but yet you reply? Still idiotic? I think not. And stop resorting to insults because you have no real argument, I get butt hurt getting insulted over Youtube like you did.
@Scootertuner1000 4 strokes are just a scheme to make more money youre right. Ill continue racing my cr250 in the lites class and deal with a little bit of arm pump thank you. No 250f can touch a 250 2 stroke straight up.
@TheDirtball69 actually the 250f has a big chance. It run's circles around the 250. The 250 is bound to run out of gas way before 1/4 tank on the 250f.
@ilikepie5720 Ps. Subara built or not built both group N. 250 vs 250, 125 vs 125, 500 vs 500. 4 strokes should not be given a huge capacity advantage just because they produce less power for a given displacement. That is not fair racing.
@ilikepie5720 Continued from post below. So 4 strokes should only be allowed a 10% advantage. Honda fought like hell to get the 100% advantage. You can't sell 2 strokes for road use any more and racing is a form of advertising, "Win on Sunday sell on Monday". Now 2 strokes are not allowed to compete at all in the pros; why? because Maico and KTM etc are making 250cc 2 strokes with close to 60hp and the 4 stroke mfgs know they would be beaten even on 450s, so they got them banned altogether.
@Scootertuner1000 You can increase positive displacement by changing the size of the carb (or injection) and therefore push more fuel into the engine. It then has more gas coming out the rear end, due to the fact that more was taken in (more pos dis), does that mean then that we shouldn't allow fuel injection, because you can push more fuel into the engine than you can with a carb? No of course it doesn't and that is why positive displacement is BS. CCfor CC is the only fair standard to use.
@Scootertuner1000 positive displacement is BS because you can push more fuel? And gives you more than 250cc of exhaust in a 250cc engine???? That statement goes against Conservation laws and Ideal Gas Laws (you did take chemistry and physics Mr. Mechanical Engineer?). You can only make so much exhaust per cycle, and molecules can't magically be made out of nothing. Stoichiometry, do some, then tell me your statement is correct.
@ilikepie5720 Alright I'll bite. Yes you can push more fuel into an engine. A bigger carb will push more fuel into an engine than a smaller carb. That's why to maximize performance you put a bigger carb on. Or fuel injection can be turned up so that it pushed more fuel into the engine. The higher the compression ratio of the engine and the more fuel that is pushed into the engine the more psotive displacement you will get for the same size engine. What do you not understand about that.
@ilikepie5720 Increased positive displacement can be a achieved in a lot of ways from big carbs (letting more fuel into the engine) to direct injection that pumps the charge into the cylinder once all the valves or ports are closed putting more fuel into the engine than atmospheric pressure and the suction of the engine alone can achieve (the charge is simply more compressed) which is why for instance a super charger is also known as a compressor, at least by those who invented it, the Germans.
@ilikepie5720 With a high pressure direct injection system on a 4 stroke, a super charger on a 2 or 4 stroke, a turbo charger on a 4 stroke, an expansion chamber and a big carb on a 2 stroke, an expansion chamber and a high pressure direct injection system or a 2 stroke are all ways of squeezing more charge into the engine and thus increase the positive displacement for any given CC. Really if you are going to argue a point, make sure you know what you are talking about first.
@Scootertuner1000 all of what your putting in the engine still has to fit inside the cylinder, and after combustion, by gas and conservation laws (notice this part, you didn't read the first time), the exhaust must still fit inside the cylinder. it doesn't matter how compressed it gets initially, because you can still compress that back into the 250cc sized cylinder, resulting in an equivalent of 250cc of exhaust, after accounting for heat expansion, etc (gas laws again) how is this hard to get?
@ilikepie5720 Look up positive displacement pumps. If something is compressed to greater than atmospheric pressure you will fit more of it into a given space. Take a 250cc of helium as a gas at atmospheric pressure, now compress it until it is a liquid, it take up far less space, or in other words you are able to fit far more of that same material into the same 250cc space. So you have, guess what, positive displacement.
@ilikepie5720 Ever heard of Boyle's Law? The mathematical equation for Boyle's law is: pV = k where: p denotes the pressure of the system, V denotes the volume of the gas. k is a constant value representative of the pressure and volume of the system.
@ilikepie5720 The ratio between the pressure-volume product and the temperature of a system remains constant. pV /T = K (I am using a forward slash instead of an underscore) p is the pressure V is the volume T is the temperature measured in kelvins k is a constant (with units of energy divided by temperature).
If you are going to quote gas laws, make sure you know what you are talking about first.
@Scootertuner1000 guess what, combustion makes heat, so boyle's law doesn't hold true in this case,temp change is modeled by Charle's law, but the piston increases pressure, so this can't work, hmmm, combined gas law makes this work, but we have a set amount of gas in the cylinder, so throwing in avagadro's law gives us the ideal gas law, and has been proven as the law to describe engine combustion, by NASA. Tell me i'm still wrong, you cited the wrong law smartass.
@ilikepie5720 No I didn't you retard. Now go away and play with your little friends. I could have gone through all of the combined laws, but it would have taken up too much room. Dud you are quite simply wrong, no ifs and or buts. Nothing you have said is right, nothing.
@Scootertuner1000 you cited Boyle's law, which is a special case ONLY where temperature is constant, well combustion makes heat, breaks the special case, making your long ass comment wrong. You could have explained the correct, but you didn't, i did the jest of the derivation for the correct law, which uses Boyle's law, pulled directly out of my old chem books and NASA's explanation of an internal combustion engine. you were almost right, but almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
@ilikepie5720 I know compression makes heat. That doesn't change the fact that when you compress something it means you can fit a greater charge into the same area. A greater charge in an internal combustion engine equals more power through positive displacement. That's how turbo chargers, super chargers and high pressure direct injection works. You are grasping at straws now, nothing you have said, not one point has been right. Nothing.
@Scootertuner1000 it just means you crammed more shit into a given space, more stuff = greater boom, no fucking shit cosworth. Any engine can do that, 2 or 4 stroke, but take the fuel and air "out" of the equation, make them arbitrary constants, then compare that way, that's what i've been trying to say. Hell if we went off your idea, all the 250f's would be in different classes, none are the same exact fueling setup, which means positive displacement by your definition.
@ilikepie5720 "positive displacement is BS because you can push more fuel? And gives you more than 250cc of exhaust in a 250cc engine???? Yes because it is Kompressed or rather compressed. Wow, do a little research first.
you dont need sound you know that 2 stroke sounds better
lolomen123 7 months ago
sound?
AradCrossLeuL 7 months ago
i wont buy anything but a yamaha for my life im very brand loyal they have been good to me since my first one so i wont get anything els. and why would i want something for dessert racing when i live in the north east the closest thing we have anywere around here to a desser is a sand pit hahaha
colonblast420 8 months ago
i am a two stoke man and ive always rode two strokes but i just got a brand new yz450f and the thing revs like a two stoke and is way better on gas and the thing is just plain fast
colonblast420 8 months ago
@colonblast420 They rev a lot higher than the 2 strokes. But is it as fast as a CR500AF or a KX500 which will both do over 100mph and are absolute torque monsters.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 Sorry but they don't even get close to 100 mph.
motox747r 8 months ago
@motox747r The bike Cardboard Robot KX 500 runs up to speeds of 125.854 miles per hour. Change the stock gearing on a CR500 (which is geared for about 70mph standard) and 65hp will easily get you to 100mph. 16kmh (104.44mph) KX500 watch?v=aLsGHVvQzLw 171kph (106.94mph) KX500 run /watch?v=GzYIl1E95Hk&feature=related Sorry could not find videos of a CR500 going that fast, but Motor Cycle Mechanics tested one a few years back and changing the gearing got them 115mph.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 Thank you for prooving my point. They dont go 100 mph. Who would want to change the gearing because then the bike would be shit.
motox747r 8 months ago
@motox747r Uhm I didn't. The KX500 is standard gearing & hits 106.94mph. You said a CR500 couldn't hit 100mph and it can while still hitting a 10 second standing 1/4, do you want a video of that too. It can with higher gearing and will still out accelerate a CRF450.
So it CAN do 100mph. People play with their gearing all the time high gearing for long tracks shorter gearing for tight technical tracks. The KX does it without a gearing change & the CR goes down a few teeth on the rear sprocket.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 I am simply stating facts not arguing. No motocross bike will go 100 mph without modifications. A 10 second cr500 isn't even a motocross bike anymore.
motox747r 8 months ago
@motox747r An unmodified KX500 will do over 100mph without even changing the gearing. Watch the video, that is fact. A CR500 that does 115mph just by losing 5 teeth off the rear sprocket is also really unmodified, that is a fact too. But if you consider changing the s[rocket modification, which it isn't, then well use the KX as the example capable of way more than 100mph with no mods, not even gearing. The old Maico 490 was also capable of over 100mph those are the facts, no argument
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@motox747r So no, I didn't prove your point for you.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 no it isnt as fast not even close and idc because why do i need to do over 100 mph on a dirt bike i have an r6 to do that on haha. i was never putting 2 strokes down i love them they are 100% better then any 4 stroke out there if the still made a 500 2 stroke that what i would have got but they dont so i got a 450 is there a problem with that and i still have my yz 250 and i bought another 125 so yes i think 2 strokes are better to but i bought a 450 because i wanted to
colonblast420 8 months ago
@colonblast420 KTM and Maico as well as ATK make huge 2 stroke dirt bikes. I would want a 100mph plus dirt bike for desert racing. Maico/ATK 700 is a fantastic choice for that. I didn't say there was a problem with it. I just asked a question.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 i wont buy anything but a yamaha for my life im very brand loyal they have been good to me since my first one so i wont get anything els. and why would i want something for dessert racing when i live in the north east the closest thing we have anywere around here to a desser is a sand pit hahaha
colonblast420 8 months ago
@colonblast420 Desert racing is a blast. They're also great for Hare Scrambles. You don't want one, that's fine, but not a basis for an argument.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 apparently you didn't know compression makes heat, you cited boyle's law retard.
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ilikepie5720 Wow you are really grasping at straws aren't you. Not a question. Of course I know that compression creates heat. It is quite obvious you do not have a clue what you are talking about. I am not going to respond to any more of your infantile comments.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 I just looked at your profile, the first time since we have been discussing this. You are only 19, you grew up with 4 strokes and learned how to ride on 4 strokes, of course you have a preference for them. Learn how to ride a 2 stroke, you will be far more successful with it.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000, I appreciate your input, but I am fully aware and have been for some time the advantages and disadvantages of both. My point and question is how could anyone think that 120 year old 4 stroke tech that was never competitive with 2 strokes, now say that the 4 strokes are superior when the ONLY thing that changed is the rules? For someone to say that 2 strokes will someday be uncompetitive because of rule changes, then say because of it, 2 strokes are inferior, is assanine.
Revanche2strokes 8 months ago
@Revanche2strokes I fully agree with you. The 2 stroke engine is far superior and even better than that is a wankel engine.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Revanche2strokes Ps. My post was actually meant for ilikepie5720, I clicked on the wrong post when responding.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
looks like some fun spots to ride!
mynamesmitchel 9 months ago
where is that track you ride on all the time at the end of this video
heard156 9 months ago
song?
motomagnet09 10 months ago
@motomagnet09 the band is called Escape the Fate but now u cant hear it anymore in the video
sSTRE3TDR3EMZz94 7 months ago
@sSTRE3TDR3EMZz94 damn it thats gay. hey avoidthedog..you should re upload without any music or with a different song. but please no 009 Sound System.
motomagnet09 7 months ago
@motomagnet09 lol, im not the guy who uploaded it. ive just seen this video before when it had sound and the band that was playing was Escape The Fate
sSTRE3TDR3EMZz94 7 months ago
@sSTRE3TDR3EMZz94 i know i was talking to avoidthedog haha.
motomagnet09 7 months ago
@motomagnet09 ohh yea sorry haha ima idiot
sSTRE3TDR3EMZz94 7 months ago
@sSTRE3TDR3EMZz94 no problem dude
motomagnet09 7 months ago
Gotta say I've watched 2 of your videos and love your choice I'm music and bikes lol yamaha all the way. Sick bike BTW
bobmcfod 10 months ago
escape the fate!!
sSTRE3TDR3EMZz94 10 months ago
looks like a fun tack
TheIISPIRITIX 10 months ago
ALL THAT BRAGIN AM HEARING ABOUT THE 4STROKES.ALL THE GOOD STUFF AM HEARINABOUT THE 2STROKES;]
2strokebeast 10 months ago
250f is way better and faster
thebranden777 10 months ago
i wanna there 2
batman3w3 10 months ago
i wanna ride there :D
MrMrdoornob 11 months ago
IM PROB GETTING A 250F AS SOONA S IM BIG ENOUGH AND IM RIDIN AN 100 NOW SHOULD I GO TO 250 OR LIKE A 125 OR 150???
humanacho12 11 months ago
@humanacho12 go 125 or 150 but if you are a 4 stroke guy go with a 250
MrSuaveeito 11 months ago
BUT they look so familiar! - maybe your right, you know the traisl afterall.
RubberSalt 11 months ago
Dude, i ride those trails alot on my 3 wheeler, wichita kansas right? down off seneca?
RubberSalt 11 months ago
@RubberSalt These trails are not in Kansas
Spywell 11 months ago
under 250 u go 2 stroke but 250 and up it is all about the 4 stroke
TheJaxonzworld 1 year ago
@TheJaxonzworld
Ever ridden an older Honda CR500 or CR480R or a YZ 490 or IT 490? or a KX500?
Freaking scary ass big bore two strokes... I had a CR 500 and a CR 480R...the 480R was actually faster than the 500.. It was scary evil..Like it was possessed or something...
scott93257 10 months ago
@TheJaxonzworld
Then I got a a Honda XR600 Enduro...which was four stroke.... HUGE Low end power and would climb anything you threw at it... a different animal but as far as the top end was... the CR500 or 480 ate it for breakfast, lunch, dinner and a midnight snack...
scott93257 10 months ago
Nice car chassis.
CordleThe44 1 year ago
im not sure how the 250 does against 450f. But i do know my yz250f had a step up on my cr125 that was punched out .050 and had a 6th gear. Cr was a lot easier to throw around and jump but my yz250f has the power right when you need it. You can nut it in 4th or 5th and still break the tire lose.And it sounds scary instead of annoying!
khonky 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover If you can handel the power of a 500 2 stroke it will smoke a 4 stroke no problem. Even if its a 2 decade old heavy meteal frame under suspened piece of shit
Hungovercheese 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover im doubting it the 250 will get the 450 in acceleration but in the long run the 450 would smoke him
dummy5521 1 year ago
what was that first song and sweet bikes
awe212 1 year ago
U must be out your fucking mind i have a cr 250 that would destroy any 450 u bring to it 2stroke rule bitch
Antpo2150 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover just remeber mr. 4 stroke when you fry a piston on a 2 stroke ur only out for a few hours if you have the parts and back runnin again as for the four stroke your done for the weekend
terrywoodley 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover No shit the 450 has an 80 percent larger displacement and I know of plenty of 2 stroke 250s who can smoke any 450 out there. All things equal, 250 2 stroke versus 250 4 stroke, its not even a competition, 2 strokes all the way!
colbythomas336 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover good one, for the 250 2ts size, it still keeps up with the 450f and has basically the same power. like to see a 450f against a cr500,hahahahahahahahah. even if they made a 500 4 stroke the 2 stroke will fuckin DOMINATE
neckali 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover harleys arent made for the mx track, sorry.
btbierman 1 year ago
@btbierman 4t = harleys
btbierman 1 year ago
@btbierman 4t = harleys
numbnuts
btbierman 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover your retarted the two strokes kills a 4 strokes preformance wise. Its why you need a huge engine size advantage to keep up with them 250 2t vs 250 4t depending on rider the 2 stroke always wins.
Hungovercheese 1 year ago
most jump competitions use 2 stroke
mikepassword2 1 year ago
must be the same reason all the crusty's ride 2 strokes. All them guys are jokes, no idea how to ride. ;)
starlessredbrush 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover a bolt on 250f will stick it to a 250 two stroke on mosts track.
CODEEmx527 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover same to compare 450 4 stroke and 500 2 stroke!
hiiman1234 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover well i doubt it but ive never seen u on a bike so i cant say!
mo2tercross 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover how can u possibly say faggot 2 jokes 2 strokes are harder to ride than 4 strokes so if anything its the 4 strokes that are faggots because only faggots ride them!
mo2tercross 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover no my 03 110 2stroke smoked a 150 4 stroke
THEunknownCLOWNable 1 year ago
the 2 stroke will smash the 4 stroke around a small track but 4 stroke will bette it around a long distance track
TheJBshow100 1 year ago
It basically boils down to this, they both have their advantages and disadvantages by their very nature. But, why does the 2 stroke HAVE to have extra disadvantages hung on them just to allow the 4 strokes a competitive edge? Let them race size for size ands THEN decide. No one can argue, which machine has a superior engine, the 2 stroke makes much more power and torque by it's principle and if it wasn't true, why does the 4 stroke need a double displacement advantage?
Revanche2strokes 1 year ago 6
@Revanche2strokes You either tune the 4T for hp or you tune it for torque, actually that is the same with both 4T & 2 T engines, it depends on port/valve timing. The way 250F's aretuned for HP. They get their torque advantage from the size advantage, not from the fact that they are 4 strokes. Compare the torque produced and where in the rev range and the HP produced and also where in the rev range between a CRF250 & a YZ250, the YZ produces more torque & more HP and at lower RPM than the CRF
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@RovingLandRover your a dumbass. they race 2 stroke 250s in 450 classes also, they are about the same in speed you prick :D
larrythestoner415 1 year ago
Hey Jakeshift, contrary to what you hear and read, look at some articles where you will get the REAL truth. Read some Dirt Bike mag tests where they run a new YZ250F against a new YZ250. It's not even close, the 2 stroke smokes the 250F every time and it always will. It's much, much faster and generates more HP and torque. The basic engine principle is superior by nature. The biggest benefit will come at rebuild time. $300.00 for the 2 stroke and $4000.00 or more for the 4 stroke.
Revanche2strokes 1 year ago
does anyone still seem to not understand its personal preference whether u like 2 stroke or 4 stroke?? i ride my 125 and i love, i ridden some of my friends 250F's and i like them too..
SplitSecond199 1 year ago
guy riding with no shirt.......hummmm not very smart
dimeogod 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover dude look at the size difference..? its a 450 and 250. the piston is about 20 mm difference, know ur bikes b4 u go saying 2 strokes suck. i bet my rm 250 will beat any 250 4 stroke cuz it alwaws does
flowrida13579 1 year ago
Everyone has a preference and everyone should be allowed to ride what they want. But, the competitions should be fair so people can make a decision based on fairness. How many people read a test and say they want the 4 stroke 450 because it makes more torque than the 250 2 stroke. Well, no kidding, it's almost twice the size. The 250 2 should rave the 250 4, THEN let the reader decide. If 4 strokes are so superior, why wasn't everyone racing them from the get-go, they've been around forever!
Revanche2strokes 1 year ago
RovingLR, I ride a 250 KX and have only 2 strokes. We tried the 4 stroke thing. Too heavy and way to expensive. BUT, my point is. Everyone automatically pits the 2 stroke against the 4 stroke that is TWICE the size or close to it. This should prove which machine is better. If it has to race against machines much bigger, ask yourself why. The reason the Japanese do it, is because they want to kill the 2 stroke off, we do it, because we are conditioned to. I am trying to change this "conditioning"
Revanche2strokes 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover its all down to the rider
smokeweedtilidie 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover ive got an rm 250 2t and a yz450f and whilst they are completely different bikes to ride there is not a big difference in overall power, just the way it is delivered.
smokeweedtilidie 1 year ago
@smokeweedtilidie Oh really, you mean the 450 cc makes more torque than the 250 cc bike? Wow, a bike with almost twice the size and the horsepower is almost the same but the torque is not? You try racing against a guy with your legs tied together, this would be the same kind of disadvantage the 2 stroke has to compete with.
Revanche2strokes 1 year ago
@Revanche2strokes its all about the rider, i dont agree with the 'legs tied together' bit, if you can keep the lighter 2 stroke up in the revs then its just as quick as the 450. and i know this for a fact from personal experience. what do u ride?
smokeweedtilidie 1 year ago
2 stroke = orgasm. 4 sdtroke = fart
santiaguito3234 1 year ago
very good rider man !!
8henery8 1 year ago
@RovingLandRover i wouldnt say they kill 250s.. i ride a 450 now but i ride a friends steel framed 04 yz250 and i was turning faster lap times than on my properly setup 450f, it was more of a tight track so the 250 had an advantage but the 450 is obviously faster power wise. both can be just as fast as the other
avoidthedog 1 year ago 5
@avoidthedog Depends, my friends isn't used to 4 stokes, so he cant ride anything but a 2 stroke! Me i prefer a 4 stroke, no lack of power anywhere! Maybe you just miss clutched with your 450f? cause even REED CARMICHEL AND STEWART say 2 strokes are passed...
SkyJunper 1 year ago
@avoidthedog why compare a 250 with a 450 the 450 will have more power at the bottom anyways because its more cubic inches ^^^^ 450 2 stroke vs 450 4 stroke is what it should be :p and the 4stroke is smoked
slyyyy1 1 year ago
@slyyyy1 taken from dirtbike mag article:
1999 HONDA CR500R
It was once the king of the Open class. But then the kingdom slowly withered away. The CR500R remains as a current artifact in the fossil record, showing us how much dirt bikes have changed in 10 or so years. Compared to modern MX bike, it’s cumbersome and sometimes scary. At least it’s less of a brute than the KX500. The one area where 500cc two-strokes still have a place is in the desert and going up steep, sandy hills.
avoidthedog 1 year ago
@slyyyy1
TEST BIKE WEIGHT: 233 lb.
PEAK HORSEPOWER: 56 hp @ 5800 rpm
Sure the 500 two stroke puts down a good 8hp on a modern 450f, but a 450 is producing SIGNIFICANTLY better power delivery that is much more beneficial FOR ACTUALLY RACING.
avoidthedog 1 year ago
@avoidthedog
Thats with an old 2-stroke motor, the yz250 is putting out 48 hp stock. The new yamaha puts down alsmost 54hp. Yes they a bit faster, but im having more fun on my yz250. They also make 295cc big bore kits that help bridge the gap
LazyWaffleman 1 year ago
@slyyyy1 not to mention a much larger rpm range to work with
avoidthedog 1 year ago
@avoidthedog True but the 450 has almost 100% capacity advantage. i want to go back to 250cc against 250cc regardless of whether 2 or 4 stroke, that would be fair racing.
Scootertuner1000 10 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 that is not fair racing, capacity and positive displacement are completely different. Technically a 250 2t has the positive displacement advantage.
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
Comment removed
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 The way the 2 stroke makes up for it's lack of efficiency in each individual power stroke is to make twice as many power strokes as the 4 stroke. The whole positive displacement argument goes right out of the window when you look at the thermal efficiency of each engine. The 2 stroke is much less thermally efficient, but wins out slightly for a given capacity because it produces 2 times as many power strokes. That does not however make it twice as powerful.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Positive displacement was thought up by 4 stroke mfgs so that they wouldn't have to compete on an even playing field. It completely ignores the fact that a 4 stroke engine's individual power strokes are much more efficient than those of a 2 stroke (because there aren't gaping holes in the side of the cylinder) giving 4 strokes a much greater power sustain in the power stroke. Also 4 strokes rev higher because they produce less heat. Fair racing would be 250 against 250 etc.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 i think positive displacement is how much gas (molecular state) comes out the ass end per equal strokes, and although four stroke have a more efficient power stroke, there are three strokes the piston is merely coasting, 75% of it's combustion cycle, versus the 50% of a 2 stroke.
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Or to put it another way every 2nd stroke as opposed to every 4th stroke, hence the terms 2 stroke and 4 stroke. 2 strokes do not have nearly as efficient power strokes, by a factor of about 40% which means that 2 strokes only have a power advantage in total of about 15-20%. Given that fact at most 4 strokes should be allowed a 15 to 20% capacity advantage, not almost 100%. 4 strokes make up for that by being able to rev to ca 300rpm more which produces still more power.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 my point it is that equal amounts of exhaust gases come out of the exhaust per four strokes, or divide the engine capacity by the number of strokes(per classes). It's up to the manufacturer to improve the design, not the displacement's fault. And AMA never banned 2 smokes from the pro's. Yamaha fielded a YZ 250 a few months ago, they just aren't competitive enough at that level. The only rule was positive displacement imposed by the AMA (450F vs 250 2t : 250f vs 125 2t).
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Your point is wrong it was a swindle perpetrated by Honda and other 4 stroke mfgs. who wanted to be able to sell road going bikes based on the reputation built by racing. Now that Maico and KTM & other Euro mfgs. have 2 stroke 250s that will easily beat the 450 4 strokes, they're close to 60hp 250cc 2 strokes, the 4 stroke mfgs. said they would pull out of racing altogether if they allowed any 2 strokes, so now they won't even allow 2 stroke 250cc to race against 4 strokes 450s
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 you're a dumbass, my point is wrong? How? And road bikes need to be sold by dirt? You know honda has a successful road racing history and uses that to prove it's point because a good dirt bike doesn't make a good road bike, both have to be proven winners. A four stroke thumper can be designed to make 60hp, but why sacrifice the torque? that's why they class by displacement and not hp, torque is a big factor also you seem to overlook in your point.
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 I have not insulted you once. Your point is wrong because positive displacement is a fucking lie you fucking retarded motherfucker. It is a lie made up by 4 stroke mfgs. to justify their almost 100% capacity advantage that's how it's wrong you cunt. There are plenty of places where dual purpose bikes (road going dirt bikes) are very popular, but they can't sell 2 T for road use so they insisted that 2 strokes not be allowed to race against them.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Nobody had a problem racing 2 Ts until emissions laws got so strict they couldn't sell them for road use. They want to race what they can sell for road use so made up the bullshit positive displacement and when 2 strokes of 250cc caught up with 450s in terms of HP the 4 T mfgs threw a hissy fit and threatened to remove all sponsorship for racing unless 2 T's were banned altogether. They are not classed by displacement but positive displacement which is a croc.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 You can't use 4 strokes on the road here in Washington State anymore, if it's an offroad bike, you're no longer allowed to convert, so much for your emissions conspiracy. 2 strokes are still allowed to race in ama, they can't place high enough to make the main. Positive displacement ("bullshit" point) was actually made by engineers, not manufacturer's R&D depts. and still widely used, including myself as a student, it's used to measure things other than just engines dipshit.
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 They have simply tightened up the laws concerning converting X bikes to road use bikes. You can however buy a ton of dual purpose/enduro bikes and super moto bikes which are allowed for use on the road, there are no 2 strokes among them. You can't do it without insulting can you (not a question). Every time I try to have a conversation with you you resort to insults, that shows how weak your argument is. I am an engineer and have worked for companies like Cosworth in England.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 No, it shows my lack of patience with people like you, I have looked at both sides of the arguments and notice the fundamental differences between the 2 engines, you can't race just of raw displacement, everything has to be looked at, and you should know that better than anyone if you worked for cosworth. That's like saying a race built subaru using cosworth components should be allowed to race a bone stock subaru since displacement is the same, same idea in mx.
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
Comment removed
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 No it shows your lack of a real argument. You don't need to insult if you have a real argument, you rely on facts, not diverting attention by insulting.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 i apologize for the insults, but answer my question about subie vs built subie instead of diverting yourself away from answering a valid comparison question by reminding my about my vulgarity overshadowing my real argument. I've riden my friend's kx 250, and I was much faster on it than my 250f, and i'm a novice, so i don't see how they are fair, especially with him having 10 years experience on me.
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 The Subarus are group N WRC cars and so can race against each other. the only ones that can't are the Cosworth WRX's as they only built 75 of them and that is no where near enough for homogolation
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 The 10 year advantage is neither here nor there, we are talking about the bikes. Both bikes have the same capacity, displacement. It is fair because the KX produces more power for the same capacity without the addition of turbochargers or any other additoinal means of induction.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 but it does in fact use a different combustion cycle, like how the subie engines are different, yet still the same, for rhetorical purposes at least. And yeah, i thought i had won that round, especially after how anti-2 stroke he was despite racing them, i still find it funny his POV changes when he gets on the team that has the2 strokes and wants to field them and updates the technology.
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 He was anti 2 stroke because his job relied on it. Why do you think he went to work for KTM? Because he knows that 2 strokes are are faster.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Ps. All that said you will notice that I have both 4 and 2T bikes and in fact I went out and bought a CRF250 last night. Not because I think it's better than my YZ, but because I love motorcycles. Hell, I have even built my own home made mopeds using a beach cruiser and an 80cc 2 stroke engine mounted into the frame (not on the rack at the back) I have built 5, I ride them for a while and sell them at a large profit.
I have also almost finished a diesel powered motorcycle.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 /watch?v=Elm7I6X3Z3o
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 Why do you care anyway? you ride a scooter for fuck's sake, and for the record, thumpers had to catch up to the two strokes first and they originally had the yz 400f face off against the 2 smoke onslaught, it was a technology change that made the 4 stroke become the new standard. KTM is in favor of the 250 vs 250, but their team manager isn't, what does that tell you, even he thinks it's a croc of shit for 250 vs 250 and he's been involved for decades in the sport.
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 I ride a 4T converted from 50cc to 250cc, a 4T 50 to 150cc, a2T converted from 50cc to 110cc , a CZ 175 2T dirt bike, a Suzuki GT380 2 stroke triple, a CR500, a YZ250 and a YZF450. Really? From what I have seen in interviews, KTM and Maico team managers want 250cc against 250 etc. If you think otherwise give me a link I call myself scooter tuner because I can make 30mph scooters do 100mph. I ride more than just a scooter & my fastest bikes are 2T
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 so why is yamaha against it? they field one of the only 250 2 smokes in the SX series and they push to keep the premixers comin to the US. And Roger DeCoster, one of the biggest names in the sport, is actually against it, and guess what team he now manages? KTM. And he was a hard core 2 smoke racer. So maico is the last real die hard, but i've never seen them competing even in the amateur division where 250 vs 250 is legal.
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Yamaha is playing both side of the fence. They were, in years gone by, THE 2 stroke mfg.
They however realize which side their bread is buttered on and have had little to no development of the YZ for years while pouring tons of money into the YZF. They want to keep their hand in for the advent of clean burning direct injection 2 strokes to the masses (read Orbital Injection).
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 That's odd this is from an interview DeCoster did for MXA. MXA: DO YOU THINK THAT 250 TWO-STROKES SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO RACE AGAINST 250 FOUR-STROKES?
Roger Decoster: Yes. I think it would be fine. The two-stroke makes more horsepower, but it makes it over a narrower range, while the four-stroke makes less power, but has a broad powerband. I think they are equal machines.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Carried on from the previous post (DeCoster) The two-stroke would be better in sand and deep loam, while the four-stroke would be better on harder dirt. It takes a more talented rider to race the two-stroke and I can see where it would be difficult for most of the current 250 four-stroke riders to make the change. I'd wouldn't oppose a rule change.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 did you even read what i wrote? 250's can race 250f's at the amatuer level. And look back to the 07/19/2010 forum posts of MXA, stating how Decoster was against it when he was with Suzuki, now that he's with KTM, he's changed his story, i find that interesting how when his company makes 2 strokes he's for it, but when he's on a thumper only line he's against it.
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 We are talking about the pros not amateur. 250 can ride against 259 in the amateurs, I know that. So when you get a good new 250 2T riding against 250 4T the 2 T wins. The KTM 150 beats the 250cc 4 strokes for Christ sakes.. As far as what DeCoster said, you brought him up, not me, as if it were some kind of trump card. All I did was point out that his POV changed.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 hell, 85cc's are 1 sec slower on lap times than the pro-am lites classes, i'm sure a skilled 85 rider could beat a 250f, and i was just using what DeCoster saidas a point, then you brought up a counterpoint using the same individual, i was merely affirming the validity of my source for his anti 250 vs 250 quote, prior to his pro-250 v 250 POV, no trump, just a point.
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 "And Roger DeCoster, one of the biggest names in the sport, is actually against it, and guess what team he now manages? KTM"
That sounds very much to me like you thought you had won that round. Plus it was wrong anyway, you implied a connection between being a team manager for KTM and having that point of view, which is clearly untennable.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 Ok, point is, you roll up to a track, you have the 2 smoke, you're gonna want to use it knowing it is a faster bike, and KTM knows that, or else they, and every 250 2t rider i know, is pushing for the rule change. 250f riders like myself know they are for the most part are impossible to beat in a flat out battle, so we're against it. I'll really make an issue out of it by making a sterling engine powered bike using a candle and ice, 250cc capacity, and complain, lol
ilikepie5720 9 months ago
@ilikepie5720 The 2 stroke engine is simply better, it produces way more power for a given capacity, but it takes a lot more skill to ride. You should switch to 2T, change your riding style and given that ams are allowed to race cc against cc, race a 250 2 stroke against the 250 4 strokes, you will beat them. Don't get tied to the 4 strokes because of the marketing and hype of the 4 strokes manufacturers. Choose the bike that is going to get you over the line first in a fair cc for cc race.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 i got a thumper because i will be using the bike for as a trail bike as well as novice racer, besides my local track keeps the 250 2t's out of the novice lites class, so i'm racing other 250 thumpers or 125 2t's. After riding both, i still prefer my thumper just because of the low end, no hype, no bull, just because i prefer the power delivery characteristics over a ring-dinger's.
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 a 4 stroke for a trail bike is great. Of course your 250 will have more low end than a 125 2T, it has a 100% more capacity. It is twice the size, and therefore produces more torque. Farmer Giles' tractor also has tons of torque, but that doesn't make it fast. A 2T 250 will produce more torque and more importantly more hp than a 4 stroke 250. Both are nice though. A 2T takes more skill though, which is why people who learned on 4Ts don't like em.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 no, my thumper isn't dependent upon a pressure differential to make torque and power, the valves keep it more linear, which i prefer. I don't like having to build revs just to make power, and at the low end, the 2 stroke doesn't make that instant hit, kinda like a turbo lag, Faster yes, instant power not so much. nothing to do with capacity, but engine design. Come on Cosworth, you know that.
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Your thumper makes more torque because it has a 100% capacity advantage, pure and simple. Linear power delivery has nothing to do with torque produced. If you compare your 250f to a 250 2 stroke, the 2 stroke makes more torque at lower rpms. It is actually the 4 strokes that have the sky high rev ceiling in order to produce power, not the 2 strokes. Remember I ride both, but for different reasons. If I want fast fast fast and exciting I ride 2 t if I want relaxed I ride 4T
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 2 strokes build more torque at low rpm? and a thumper has the high end power? What dyno chart are you looking at?
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 It depends on the port/valve timing, where power is made. That said, a 250cc 2 stroke has more torque and more hp than a 250cc 4 stroke. A 2008 Yamaha YZ250F produces 36 hp at 11,300 rpm, while a YZ250 two-stroke makes 46.4 hp at 8500 rpm.The 4 stroke has to rev far higher to produce its hp and still produces less. Guess what? A YZ250F makes 20.1 ft lbs of torque. Are you ready? A YZ250 two stroke pumps out 30.6 foot-pounds. Those dyno charts.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 I always thought that the 2 stroke shined in the powerband, and the thumper had the low end grunt. Then, that's comparing bikes of the same class, say 125cc 2t and a 250 4t. So looking at these charts, how is it fair to race the 250's if the 2 stroke makes more of everything at lower rpm? Strictly looking at dyno charts, I don't care for you to bore me with equal displacement garbage, you've beat that dead horse already. Numbers don't lie, racing politics do.
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 It is fair, they were until recently the same class (in every class of racing). That is why you can race a 250cc 2T against a 250cc 4T, at least in the amateur classes (same size engines). Just because 4T do not produce as much power for a given CC doesn't make it unfair for them to race against 2T of the same CC. What is unfair is to give the inferior engine design a 100% advantage to make up for its lack of power. And again, you have no real argument so resort to insults.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Yeah numbers don't lie and racing politics do. The numbers tell you that a 250cc 2T is a superior engine design. Politics tells you that it is alright to cheat and use an engine that is twice the size of your competitor, just because you chose the inferior, less powerful design.
Politics is the BS, 125 2T being in the same class as something with twice the engine size, a 250F, just because, just because the 250F produces far less power CC for CC and lb for lb.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 what insult? i said you're beating a dead horse by stating the same point over and over again, i know your opinion on the matter, you know mine. numbers say they are similar, i say let the numbers decide what races what, I don't care if 85's race 450's, if the numbers are the same, fucking go for it. You make an engine that runs on a temp differential with a 500's power, race them. hp for hp, ft-Ib to ft-Ib.
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Telling someone they are talking garbage and beating a dead horse is insulting. I am sorry you don't like that, but it remains a fact. If I tell you you are talking garbage and beating a dead horse, would you not take that as insulting? Not really a question, of course you would. Racing HP for HP is nonsense, you can produce a really poorly performing 1000cc and race it against a 125cc because they produce the same hp? Come one now.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 The numbers are the size of the engine. How do you ever hope to improve engine performance when you race to a horsepower limit, which is what you just advocated. That means that everyone would be stuck on the same 30hp dogs and if you produce more HP you are disqualified. True it would be a real test of rider skill, but you would never advance engine design and power output. Essentially you would have 2 wheeled NASCAR.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 In addition, I am no more "stating the same point over and over again" than you are. There's one big difference, every time I have said something, it has been born out by facts and figures, almost every time you have said something it has been false or incorrect. For example your Subaru point, or where 2 strokes and 4 strokes produce their power in the rev range or why your 250F has more torque than a 125 2T and so on and so on.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 We could discuss this forever, until you learn more about how engines work you will never get it. I am done. I will not respond to any more of your messages.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 you just now learning that i'm sticking to my opinion? We were discussing a point, and you just wrote a break up letter. And i didn't grow up on bikes, i hang out with dirt riders who are 2 stroke only, i got the thumper for reasons stated already. Until you get off your ego, we'll never see eye to eye, 4 strokes are where the tech is invested, you know that, and it's only a matter of time now, enjoy joining the dodo bird mate.
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Don't stick by your opion just for the sake of it, that is idiotic. Look at all the eveidence and instead of trying to find eveidence that proves YOUR point of view, find what that proves the truth. I think it is you that needs to let go of your ego. You talk nonsense time after time with completely unfounded arguemnts that I have proven wrong time after time. With direct injection, 2 strokes are proving not only more powerful, which they always were, but more eco friendly too.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 i stuck to my opinion because i think i'm right, you think you're right, maybe you should have stuck to your "i'm done replying to your messages" idea you had, because if this was an idiotic ramble i'm typing, you've made it clear that it's not worth your time, but yet you reply? Still idiotic? I think not. And stop resorting to insults because you have no real argument, I get butt hurt getting insulted over Youtube like you did.
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 4 strokes are just a scheme to make more money youre right. Ill continue racing my cr250 in the lites class and deal with a little bit of arm pump thank you. No 250f can touch a 250 2 stroke straight up.
TheDirtball69 6 months ago
@TheDirtball69 Exactly
Scootertuner1000 6 months ago
@TheDirtball69 actually the 250f has a big chance. It run's circles around the 250. The 250 is bound to run out of gas way before 1/4 tank on the 250f.
joma13344 1 month ago
@ilikepie5720 Ps. Subara built or not built both group N. 250 vs 250, 125 vs 125, 500 vs 500. 4 strokes should not be given a huge capacity advantage just because they produce less power for a given displacement. That is not fair racing.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Continued from post below. So 4 strokes should only be allowed a 10% advantage. Honda fought like hell to get the 100% advantage. You can't sell 2 strokes for road use any more and racing is a form of advertising, "Win on Sunday sell on Monday". Now 2 strokes are not allowed to compete at all in the pros; why? because Maico and KTM etc are making 250cc 2 strokes with close to 60hp and the 4 stroke mfgs know they would be beaten even on 450s, so they got them banned altogether.
Scootertuner1000 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ilikepie5720 Not one thing you have said has been right not one.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 You can increase positive displacement by changing the size of the carb (or injection) and therefore push more fuel into the engine. It then has more gas coming out the rear end, due to the fact that more was taken in (more pos dis), does that mean then that we shouldn't allow fuel injection, because you can push more fuel into the engine than you can with a carb? No of course it doesn't and that is why positive displacement is BS. CCfor CC is the only fair standard to use.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 positive displacement is BS because you can push more fuel? And gives you more than 250cc of exhaust in a 250cc engine???? That statement goes against Conservation laws and Ideal Gas Laws (you did take chemistry and physics Mr. Mechanical Engineer?). You can only make so much exhaust per cycle, and molecules can't magically be made out of nothing. Stoichiometry, do some, then tell me your statement is correct.
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Alright I'll bite. Yes you can push more fuel into an engine. A bigger carb will push more fuel into an engine than a smaller carb. That's why to maximize performance you put a bigger carb on. Or fuel injection can be turned up so that it pushed more fuel into the engine. The higher the compression ratio of the engine and the more fuel that is pushed into the engine the more psotive displacement you will get for the same size engine. What do you not understand about that.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Increased positive displacement can be a achieved in a lot of ways from big carbs (letting more fuel into the engine) to direct injection that pumps the charge into the cylinder once all the valves or ports are closed putting more fuel into the engine than atmospheric pressure and the suction of the engine alone can achieve (the charge is simply more compressed) which is why for instance a super charger is also known as a compressor, at least by those who invented it, the Germans.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 With a high pressure direct injection system on a 4 stroke, a super charger on a 2 or 4 stroke, a turbo charger on a 4 stroke, an expansion chamber and a big carb on a 2 stroke, an expansion chamber and a high pressure direct injection system or a 2 stroke are all ways of squeezing more charge into the engine and thus increase the positive displacement for any given CC. Really if you are going to argue a point, make sure you know what you are talking about first.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 all of what your putting in the engine still has to fit inside the cylinder, and after combustion, by gas and conservation laws (notice this part, you didn't read the first time), the exhaust must still fit inside the cylinder. it doesn't matter how compressed it gets initially, because you can still compress that back into the 250cc sized cylinder, resulting in an equivalent of 250cc of exhaust, after accounting for heat expansion, etc (gas laws again) how is this hard to get?
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Look up positive displacement pumps. If something is compressed to greater than atmospheric pressure you will fit more of it into a given space. Take a 250cc of helium as a gas at atmospheric pressure, now compress it until it is a liquid, it take up far less space, or in other words you are able to fit far more of that same material into the same 250cc space. So you have, guess what, positive displacement.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 Ever heard of Boyle's Law? The mathematical equation for Boyle's law is: pV = k where: p denotes the pressure of the system, V denotes the volume of the gas. k is a constant value representative of the pressure and volume of the system.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 The ratio between the pressure-volume product and the temperature of a system remains constant. pV /T = K (I am using a forward slash instead of an underscore) p is the pressure V is the volume T is the temperature measured in kelvins k is a constant (with units of energy divided by temperature).
If you are going to quote gas laws, make sure you know what you are talking about first.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 guess what, combustion makes heat, so boyle's law doesn't hold true in this case,temp change is modeled by Charle's law, but the piston increases pressure, so this can't work, hmmm, combined gas law makes this work, but we have a set amount of gas in the cylinder, so throwing in avagadro's law gives us the ideal gas law, and has been proven as the law to describe engine combustion, by NASA. Tell me i'm still wrong, you cited the wrong law smartass.
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 No I didn't you retard. Now go away and play with your little friends. I could have gone through all of the combined laws, but it would have taken up too much room. Dud you are quite simply wrong, no ifs and or buts. Nothing you have said is right, nothing.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 you cited Boyle's law, which is a special case ONLY where temperature is constant, well combustion makes heat, breaks the special case, making your long ass comment wrong. You could have explained the correct, but you didn't, i did the jest of the derivation for the correct law, which uses Boyle's law, pulled directly out of my old chem books and NASA's explanation of an internal combustion engine. you were almost right, but almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 I know compression makes heat. That doesn't change the fact that when you compress something it means you can fit a greater charge into the same area. A greater charge in an internal combustion engine equals more power through positive displacement. That's how turbo chargers, super chargers and high pressure direct injection works. You are grasping at straws now, nothing you have said, not one point has been right. Nothing.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
@Scootertuner1000 it just means you crammed more shit into a given space, more stuff = greater boom, no fucking shit cosworth. Any engine can do that, 2 or 4 stroke, but take the fuel and air "out" of the equation, make them arbitrary constants, then compare that way, that's what i've been trying to say. Hell if we went off your idea, all the 250f's would be in different classes, none are the same exact fueling setup, which means positive displacement by your definition.
ilikepie5720 8 months ago
@ilikepie5720 "positive displacement is BS because you can push more fuel? And gives you more than 250cc of exhaust in a 250cc engine???? Yes because it is Kompressed or rather compressed. Wow, do a little research first.
Scootertuner1000 8 months ago
2 strokes sound like justin bieber having an orgasm
clokedbigman 1 year ago 2
@RovingLandRover lol you mad? why care to read them then?
christmaspoo911 1 year ago
are these bikes street legal in the u.s if you put super moto wheels on them?
christmaspoo911 1 year ago
Comment removed
christmaspoo911 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
sub to me ill sub to u anybody?
MrHewhorules 1 year ago
hey can i ride this im bout 5'5
motomanwithkfx400 1 year ago
@motomanwithkfx400 go to the dealer and sit on a few