The fog of War - Lesson 5 HQ (日本語字幕)

[Heyokat]

They can define it as they like. I KNOW what they mean, and I'll use the definition I'm comfortable with. They've separated themselves from the rest of us with all of this needless cruelty in the name of money and and power. do and will oppose them any way I'm able for as long as I'm around. Sometimes just surviving is all I can manage, but it's a start.

[BeethovenWannabe]

The Japanese were ready to surrender as early as May '45, just not unconditionally. Truman just wanted to show off his new toy to Stalin. Read "The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb" by Gar Alperovitz.

[MrAmerican76]

"The object in war is kill as many of your advesaries as possible untill you compleatly break their morale".. Dwight D.Eisenhower to Georgi Zukov after the defeat of Germany.

"Ill make them so sick of war they wont want another one for generations" .. William T. Sherman to Abraham Lincoln before the battle of atlanta and his march to the sea...

[ppp9922]

war crime

haha

all is fair in love and war

[Heyokat]

@ppp9922 - And THAT is another filthy lie. All is NOT "fair"; that attitude is simply a justification for taking what you want.

[ppp9922]

@Heyokat

there is no rules in war...

if there wasn't we wouldn't drop nukes on the Japanese.

the final solution in Europe wouldn't have been done.

chemicals wouldn't be used in war

civilians wouldn't be targeted

those who think there is need to learn that no one follows them when they are in war and after no one cares as long as they win.

its not an attitude towards war its face...tell me one time when people actually didn't do things that weren't "fair" to win a war.

[Heyokat]

@ppp9922

I agree completely, but damned if I'll call it "fair." I WILL call it an excellent reason not to permit the 'elites' and our so-called "leaders" to create wars for the profits and power of the rich and powerful.

[ppp9922]

@Heyokat

sadly fair is defined by the leaders and the powerful...

[joltmeoff]

This is ntersting too. i know some of the YT shit i post is over 30 sec. long. far beyond the average human attention span lol

[devildoc225]

What the Douchebag McNamara fails to talk about, is that the industry of Japan at that time was locally based, and in many cases more often than not, was located in villages. Thus, this called for the bombing of those villages and cities. Of course McNamara and his "whiz kids" knew nothing of what it took to keep out of war...And that is to make sure you are prepared for it. Thankfully, we had Gen LeMay.

[DritteWalpurgisnach]

The horror.

[TheHardProblem]

So even after all those places were bombed, Japan STILL didnt surrender? What inhuman force would have swepped over Asia (and beyond) if Japan were not stopped in their tracks? Was there time, money and lives left to change the strategies, would that have been moral?

[The90089]

Watch it from the beginning. I think another point is Lemay wanted to apply the same logic with the USSR and Cuba. Attack & win while you can. What we didn't know then, is that unlike Iraq, Castro already had Nuclear capability  (it wasn't just in transit) If we had attacked, it would have been nuclear war right off the US coast. The world would have been very different today. The USSR fell with out war. Negotiation has to exist to avoid nuclear war.

[salamander337]

The Japanese Empire were stubborn, no surrender, only until the dropping of the 2 atom bomb did they realize if they don't surrender they all would be wiped out.

Don't forget the Japanese army also committed worst crimes while they occupied cities all over asia at the time. The Rape of Nanking, the death march of U.S. soldiers in Gradal, and etc...It's not your fault McNarama or anyone elses that's just war.

boi the time has changes now.

[ppp9922]

55% of Sacramento...

thats where i live and if that much was destroyed then that would be horrible

[smartprimate]

in my experience McNamara is right: all that matters is winning. My whole life I have seen the nasties, from school bullies to the cheating lying business people all get the prizes. It's what we are.

And the USA bad? Compared to what? The Japanese butchery in China and murder of POWs? The Nazi death camps? Stalin's liquidation of millions of political and ethnic foes. China's own ethnic cleansing? How about PolPot?

Humans always form large groups to destroy other large groups of their own kind.

[tenacioustaut]

@smartprimate

Japan was punished for its war crimes.

If you believe in Justice, people should be treated equally under laws.

So US should be punished for its war crimes,

Those bombbbings over civilians in Japan are war crimes.

[happykid987]

@tenacioustaut thing about war that i have learned you are not punished if you win you are punished only if you lose if you really think about it, its just adding insult to injury...Victors reap the riches, no matter how awful they got to where they are

[tenacioustaut]

@smartprimate

So-called atorosities in China.

It was made up by Shiang KaiShek

watch?v=zU5icsJhLuw

[masterj345]

great now all the chinese are gonna learn mac the knifes secrets and use em against us

[69jaymez]

Some commentators here do not seem to realise that the Vietnamese were fighting each other, it was essentially a civil war. However the Communist Viet Cong had the support of Russia and China so the US and some allies supported the South Vietnamese. When the Viet Cong took power after the US pulled out, hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese were tortured and killed, millions had to attend re-education camps for years to work as slave labour, and Hundreds of thousands fled the country.

[sunragnarok]

the true and the only true is that McNamara and Lemay were terrible war criminals, what they did to japan has no name, killed hundred thousands of civils has no excuse, it doesn´t matter from what side you see this situation, both allieds and the exe had his demonds.

[Xzjackthelad]

***US, British Empire - Japanese war***

[starcraftfan911666]

i like macnamara. why did you need the unconditional? if your not willing to die to conqure the other completley with troops. you should negotiate peace. being war weary is no excuse for this.

[starcraftfan911666]

yup

[brasilcork]

The USA lost in Vietnam and are losing in Afganistan. How safe are they now that their enemies know they can be beaten?

[waltereg0]

@brasilcork Much less safe. After Vietnam Saddam Hussein decided that the USA was a paper tiger. He thought the same of the USSR after afghanistan. So he set about taking over the Gulf since there was no one to oppose him. This forced the US to send forces into Iraq in 91 but failing to remove Hussein, which resulted in the formation of Alqaeda to clease the Saudi kingdom of lingering infidel armies, & also eventually resulted in the US invading again in 03 to finish what had been left undone.

[KingGerry519]

@brasilcork You need to wake the fuck up shithouse cuntbag bloody bastard

[brasilcork]

@KingGerry519 My, but you are articulate. How can I respond to such cutting wit and pointed argument? What an intellect. As for your threat to kill me, privately sent I note, why it just makes me shudder to know I've made an enemy of so powerful a person as yourself. Woe is me.

Although your profile states that you are a proud citizen of Antarctica I do have a suspicion that you might be American.

[KingGerry519]

@brasilcork Hey cockmuncher! Why dont you fuck off and jump off a bridge? yes i am a proud antartica citizen u ignorant assclown. I'd say ur from fucking lesotho you stupid fucking cunt bucket gimp master.

[brasilcork]

@KingGerry519 Still waiting for you to fulfill your empty threat and finish me. Still alive. Guess there is nothing to fear from the likes of you. Look in the mirror, that's a loser staring back at you.

[whop9]

@brasilcork.

Though the Vietnam war was ultimately lost, the Vietnamese had to expend an incredible number of it's population in order to achieve it. Guerrilla warfare can be a viable means of winning a war depending on who you're fighting, but primary cost of running it is not in bullets, shells, or materials, it is in human lives. The death to kill ratio was entirely one sided, likewise for Afghanistan.

[brasilcork]

@whop9 But they won. I've been to vietnam. Dirt poor. David slew Goliath. How did they do it? It's amazing. America was defeated by a third world country. Sheer determination won through. The Americans were prepared to killl millions. They used agent orange and napalm and mines and yet they lost. It is astounding.

[whop9]

@brasilcork

I'm not contesting that the Vietnamese army won at all, all I'm saying is that, like any war with guerrilla warfare as one of the main crutches, the cost of winning in this manner is exceptionally high in body count. There's very little in answers to artillery and aircraft if you're a guerrilla fighter.

And even the war is won, it is likely to be of the Pyrrhic nature. The massive amount of lives spent to win the war in Vietnam, came back to haunt it for generations.

[brasilcork]

@whop9 It shows that anyone can be beaten. In time a new country will top the pile. No empire stands forever. America won every battle in Vietnam and yet lost the war through lack of will.

[makisjnx007]

@brasilcork they where testing modern warfare tactics and high tech military equippment in extreme wheater conditions. What doesn't destroy you makes you stronger. US military just got stronger with this war. They lost? Well they just fled when they saw they had achived what they where trying to achive. Is my humble point of view I just share it with you.

[brasilcork]

@makisjnx007 Vietnam remains a communist country. The USA lost the war. The Korean war was also a failure. No one country stays on top forever. Europe was once the seat of power, then America and soon the torch will be passed...to the East.

[happykid987]

@makisjnx007 i feel that the vietnam war (if this is what your talking about) i dont feel that we felt we had accomplished anything i think thats the reason we pulled out we were accomplishing absolutely nothing so they decided why stay were doing nothing

[starcraftfan9112012]

great man good movie

[whop9]

Philip Glass is a genius.

[generalcircle]

I love how Errol Morris just yells random things in the background

[ENCOMAN]

@generalcircleErrol has a mental condition where he shouts out words in a uncontrolable maner.I don't know what his condition is called at this moment.I have worked with him before and he's very talented film maker.He invented what is called the"picture prompter" instead of words in front of the camera he projected an image of his face,thats why McNamara looks into the camara and sees Errol Morris's face so now he's listens from and respons directly into the camara.Won acad award best documentry

[recheveste31]

what is the background music ?

[SatoshiBatista]

hands down the best documentary i have ever seen

[kingdickthefirst]

Should be required viewing for anyone who still thinks that WWII was "the good war".

[Sierra688]

The Japanese should have surrendered after Saipan fell, because the jig was up. Also, If you don't want your country destroyed from the air, don't attack the country that invented the airplane. War is hell.

[civilrights64]

I am not disagreeing with you, but I would like to hear the perspectives of the Koreans, Chinese and vietnamese about the presence of Japan in their respective countries during the 20th century.

[kuinosenmonkey]

Japan Liberated Asia from Euro-American Colonizers

watch?v=_PwbHPaGWLw

Japanese Samurai :who contributed to Indonesian independence

watch?v=z9tYurVJKG4

フィリピンで語り継がれる特攻精神

watch?v=HknYSn-sGtU

親日国インド

watch?v=CunDINRHP_8

[technoguy07]

As an American taking a class about all the peoples of WW2 i begin to see war crimes and faults even in the allies. Dresden and Tokyo were definitely uncalled for extremes. But Japan's treatment of the peoples it conquered were appaling as were the peoples on the Eastern Front against the Nazis. It was a bad war and unfortunately a lot of civilians died, but you have have to wonder what the world would be like if the Axis won. After all Facism is still worse than capitalism correct?

[danielgrynines]

If you are American, and you already made room in your mind for your own attrocities, that's indeed very positive.

As for your question, WWII was not a war from capitalism against fascism. As a matter of fact, many of the societies that evolved on the "allied" camp after WWII were as totalitarian as fascists.

Besides, ask you the question : if the axys had won the war and shaped the world, what would you likely believe now as being "worse"?

WWII, like all wars, was about power, not ideas.

[youfailidont]

@danielgrynines

well if the axis had won and hitler was still alive he would have continued his genocide against the jews and various other groups. he would have eventually enslaved and probably massacred the japanese and other races. so i think that the world would probably be worse for everyone who isnt aryan.

[crocop60]

@danielgrynines I think if the axis won, humans would still be able to recognize that wiping out an entire group of people was wrong.

[tenacioustaut]

@danielgrynines

GERMANY is Differnt from Japan.

Japan would have wthdrawn from Vietnam, if the Hull note was demanded by Roosevelt.

According to the former US president Hoover, Japan would not have attacked Hawaii if the US had not provoked Japan by the unacceptable demand.

[tenacioustaut]

@danielgrynines

The PM of Japan who decided to attack Hawaii saved the lives of 30,000 Jews.

He refused to hand over the jews to Germany although Germany demanded Japan to do so.

[tubub]

@danielgrynines

But if the Allies and Axis had shared ideas, than there would've been little fault. But the difference in ideas is what leads to a power struggle, and yes, it becomes about power. Well, for one, there would be no Jews left in this world if the Axis had truly won the war, but more importantly the world would've been shaped in the image of a madman with a totalitarian vision for the world. The West is not totalitarian, that is nonsense.

[Heyokat]

@tubub - The PEOPLE of the West are not totalitarian. The nationless super-wealthy who have been running the West, however, ARE. And they use blackmail, assassination, bribery, lies, whatever it takes to achieve their goals. That is how they finally got the Fed into America - how they took control in the first place. Our leaders have been chosen for us for a long time now.

[slowcreole]

@danielgrynines As someone who had an entire branch of my family exterminated in the holocaust, I can give you a few reasons as to how it would be worse...

[tenacioustaut]

@technoguy07

The point is that Japan was punished for its war crimes.

Yet US was not.

[tenacioustaut]

@technoguy07

The point is that the bommings of Tokyo, Osaka, Hiroshima Nagawaki were totally unnecesary to end the war.

Although you are taught that it was UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER, the truth is that it was a CONDITIONAL surender. Japan accpeted the demand ONLY AFTER THE REQUISITE ASSURANCES FOR THE EMPEROR WERE GIVEN BY THE US.

[kuinosenmonkey]

Zeitgeist Movie : 2007 : 11/14 : War Games

watch?v=dBVaGJZzgWk

FDR plans sneak attack before Pearl Harbor

watch?v=C1cX_Fr3qyQ

watch?v=2Uf_3E4pn3U

America's Plan to Bomb Japan before Pearl Harbor

watch?v=_wNA--Pw9Y8

[Killericon]

Just a heads-up, McNamara wasn't Decretary of State, he was Secretary of Defense, and he was President of Ford, not the CEO.

An incredible movie. Most interesting thing I've ever seen.

[danielgrynines]

Got it fixed, thanks for the corrections.

[se7en00110111]

Curious that this was subbed into Japanese. I'm interested to know what would have been their reaction to this fine documentary.

[danielgrynines]

Well, myself I'd like to know as well, which is why I took the extract from the Japanese DVD and burned the subtitles hoping that the Japanese audience would have access to it.

So far though, only 5% of the views come from Japan, and no comments. In any case, Japanese people are usually very reserved, so I'd be surprised if one of them dared to write something here. It's also a very sensitive matter...

[threebobs]

You may be interested in knowing: I just showed this to two classes of 25 students at an international school in Shanghai which is full of Japanese 6th graders.

Thanks for the translation.

This is one of the greatest documentaries of all time.

[danielgrynines]

Hey, thanks for doing that!

I always wonder how to deal with this things though. When you hear some Japanese pretending they didn't do anything bad either, that their Asia expansion was simply "helping their neighbours", you wonder if it's a good thing to show them this. (hopefully) those may not be the majority, but still... Being from Europe though, this movie certainly helped to put things into perspective, since here we've been told a very different story...

[threebobs]

@ danielgrynines

I have found that eliminating false moral categories like "country" or "japanese" or "the government" really clarifies the discussion.

Does one person or group of persons have the moral right to initiate force against another? They all unanimously say "no".

So, therefore the war couldn't have even started if the people in the NAZI, or American, or Japanese government didn't have the right to steal money from taxpayers to fund murder.

The complexities then just wash away.

[danielgrynines]

I wish it was that simple... but I believe most people would answer your question with: "it depends". Sure they may end up justifying it using words like "country", but not necesarilly. You could follow the human justification of war all the way down to the individual, his/her personal conscience, and the fact that he is likely to value more his life than that of others. From then on it's only a matter of expanding the concept of "oneself" (familly, neighbour, city, country, ...), and use it.

[threebobs]

There are only individuals. Only an individual can act.

One group of people can't have extra moral rights. The people in the state can't logically force tax payments because they are just people like you and me.

In practice: If war was voluntarily paid for, it would end

For example: The Iraq war bill is 45,000 per person. Say half the US was willing to mail that check...but then it would cost 90,000 each. But then even fewer people would want it, so the bill becomes 180,000....unworkable.

[danielgrynines]

@threebobs

So you believe individuals are totally free, and therefore responsible from their acts. I'm afraid I believe your conception, while ultimately true in theory, it's way to simple and close to irrelevant in a complex modern society.

All regimes are stablished and perdurate by self-sustained communication ("propaganda"), and most wars are first fought on those terms. Individual's will is weak; it can only get stronger by projecting itself into larger entities: family, city, nation...

[danielgrynines]

@danielgrynines

On that theme, a very good movie to watch is Clint Eastwood's "Flags of Our Fathers". Certainly not one of his best ones as far as the art of cinema goes, but pretty interesting otherwise.

It does indeed a beautiful job showing how did the American powers manage to reach American's individuals and rally them behind a single idea, projecting their own individual conscience on that of the "nation" one, which is what made their huge war effort possible on WWII.

[starcraftfan9112012]

@danielgrynines Free will matters c'mon! would you consider your own actions and thoughts irrelevant in society? what about bohr i think and this guy. what if einstien had never thought of the bomb in time to stop ground invasions for japan commencing? einstien did not even take action but his own free will and independant thought allowed the bomb to become a reality. will has little to do with projection.

[starcraftfan9112012]

@starcraftfan9112012 socialist leader ceasar chavez made it so grape picking was safer. if you picked grapes you would know some have the will to stay in the sun and pick many while others do not.

[kuinosenmonkey]

@danielgrynines

Japan was not going to extend the territory.

Japan was only fighting with Western imperialists or communists.

[danielgrynines]

@kuinosenmonkey

That is actually where the problems come from... When one keeps on thinking from one point of view, oneself's point of view, it results in sentences like yours.

I'm not saying some Japanese didn't believe in what you wrote; I'm sure many Americans thought they fought against Irak for "freedom and democracy". You should make some Chinese or Korean friends and ask them how did they feel about Japanese war efforts; you may found how wrong their point of view may have been.

[technoguy07]

that is completely wrong what about the rape of nanking, the puppet emperor, the philipines. My aunt was from there and the japanese took all her property. The "East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere" is the same thing as manifest destiny so call it waht you want it simple conquest.

[kuinosenmonkey]

THE FAKE OF NANKING - 1 watch?v=4LbVeadjSbo Precious film of soon after the Fall of Nanking(5-6)sub watch?v=mLME_hW0CCg Talk between Jin Matsubara and Shoichi Watanabe(1-2) watch?v=3orlrcenBSw Fabricated Japanese history in WW2 by Japan's Asahi Shimbun watch?v=76eghqbFa0I Every photo of NANKING MASSACRE seems to be fake. watch?v=V55JFJjbelo watch?v=CX8b7RouN0U

[kuinosenmonkey]

The reason Japan helped founding of Manchuria is for coping with the threat of the Soviet Union and communism. Japan was not going to make Manchuria its territory. If the United States did not devise an unnecessary war to Japan, China was not communized and the United States did not need to fight the Korean War. You should know that the United States even tried to drop an atomic bomb to Manchuria which is communists' supply base.

[kuinosenmonkey]

The capital of Manchuria

watch?v=7LAAM2JSnr4

watch?v=tir3-u3OL8Y

[kuinosenmonkey]

Japanese Annexation of Korea was performed in an amicable way according to the request of Korea which feared being absorbed by Russia.

Korea under Japanese rule 1931

watch?v=w4fdhAz0VSw

The true history in Korea

watch?v=94umHT7aBu4

The Truth of Japan's annexation of the Korean Peninsula

watch?v=-JHeghTfaVU

watch?v=rk3-YzsugcY

watch?v=JESc4H0awH0

[VivianBenderson]

Thanks for posting this up! =]

[danielgrynines]

Well, I haven't checked it out, but to me it really sounds like one of "Philip Glass" works.

[Rheinheld]

and Philip Glass it is

[OneMad8]

It's called "67 Cities."

[threebobs]

It is Glass. Great stuff.

[SwordShard]

What song is this I fell n love with the soundtrack of this documentary lol.