It is worthwhile seeing the film 'Dance With A Stranger' about Ruth Ellis which convinced me that she should not have been hanged in view of the violence she suffered at the hands of David Blakely. I am in favour of hanging for the most extreme cases such as child murder and would have been happy to see the likes of Myra Hindley and Rose West on the end of a rope.
The "peroxide blonde" slutty look Ruth is known for was one adopted towards the end of her life, at the behest of Desmond Cussons who had an influence over her and was a shadowy figure almost certainly involved with the intelligence services. As probably intended, it did her no good in court nor in engendered public sympathy.
Pierrepoints fastest hanging: 10.3 seconds. The most accurate on screen is that in "10 Rillington Place" where Timothy Evans (played by John Hurt) is hanged. Even the time is accurate,not all details are correct. Below is a lot of speculation over one of the closest guarded state secrets. It was intended that death should be instantaneous with long-drop, through dislocation of vertebrae. Often went wrong most of the remarks below are on details not in the public domain.
Harry Allen was never strictly a hangman, only ever a "number 2" to hangmen. "The Last Hangman" is, If I remember the title of his book (years since I read it). He was the last surviving no1 or no2. Some of his items (working model gallows etc) are in the Crime Museum at New Scotland Yard.
It should be remembered that Pierrepoint was not the "last hangman" and there is no "last" execution in Britain. The last two hangings took place in 1964 simultaneously in different prisons to avoid (in)famous "lasts". There are technical errors in the clip.
Ruth Ellis was most likely given her gun by Desmond Cussons, which she discharged without killing David Blakely. Cussons was probably waiting downhill from the Magdela pub and killed him as he fled.
@noonsight2010 you just going to rewrite history on youtube, Ruth Ellis took 3 shots the first 2 missed. When the 3rd caught him she stood over him and took 2 more shots killing him. Then turned the gun on herself but the gun jammed. After that she was arrested by an off duty police officer
As ex-curatorial staff at the Crime (nee Black) Museum at New Scotland Yard I think I know more than most. I've handled the revolver produced in court (there is doubt it was the one actually in Ruth's possession). The Smith and Wesson 4" barrel .38 is difficult for trained firearms officers to use. I've fired one on a Police range. Not easy and I was familiar with firearms. Ruth discharged her revolver (supplied by Cussons) but almost certainly did not hit Blakely. Cont...
It seems Ruth was involved in intelligence surveillence of some sort, involving prominent people. Stephen Ward (Profumo) was involved. The truth is very obscure. An interesting fact is that Justice Havers paid for Ruth's sons private education after her execution. Unprecedented. Later, prosecuting counsel, Christmas Humphries paid for him to move to better accomodation from a dingy flat. When he committed suicide many tape recordings supposedly went missing.
Rith was extremely myopic but chose not to wear glasses for the sake of vanity. She also had arthritic hands, making it virtually impossible for her to have fired the .38.
It is possible she was involved in work for the intelligence services - taping prominent people in her club. Furthermore there are other irregularities in the police investigation, her custody in prison (Cussons got access to her)and even in respect of her post-mortem. An effort was made to blur the truth.
@noonsight2010 judging by the reaction to my comment I stand corrected, I wondered why there was such an out cry to what seems like a close and shut case
When I read of a nasty crime such as the killings of Holly and Jessica I know I could put a bullet through the head of the bast**d that did it and not lose a minutes sleep over it.
But for me the killing of Ruth Ellis will always be an overwhelming argument for never bringing back capital punishment. The problem was never her guilt of shooting the low life that treated her so badly but the inhumanity of the legal establishment and the judges who did not take this into account.
I do take your point.The likes of Ian Huntley,Fred,(had he not topped himself), & Rose West will never be rehabilitated so they can re-enter society & at the risk of sounding mercenary are simply a drain on tax-payers' money.Ruth Ellis,on the other hand,was tragically a victim of a male-dominated judicial system with little regard for victims of domestic violence.I believe that so long as there are miscariages of justice Britain won't see a return of the death penalty.
If you actually read Albert pierrepoints autobiography he started assisting his father in executions at a early age also when he resigned he was against capital punishment he said that capital punishment does not act as a deterrent but to exact revenge I am pro death penalty but only if the case can be proved beyond reasonable doubt if there is one shred of doubt no death penalty
Safety. They are not standing on solid ground, but on narrow planks placed over the trap door. If they somehow stand in the wrong place when the trapdoor is released they can hold onto the rope and not fell down.
@squeezycheeseypeas I agree. The film is riddled with factual and technical inaccuracies - not the least of them being that Albert Pierrepoint was not in fact 'the last hangman' in the UK - and it was rightly criticised for promoting left wing liberal views on capital punishment with total disregard for its supporters and the details of execution. But if you accept that it is fundamentally flawed in that respect, it's a reasonable movie and Timothy Spall is excellent.
@eggmangoogoogoojoob The film in the UK was simply called Pierrepoint the American version was called The Last Hangman, you're certainly right about the inaccuracies he actually didn't know James Corbitt (tish/tosh) that well. much of the dialogue was a device in order to get the sentiments of the time and the order of events across to the audience efficiently. Pierrepoint ended up being an advocate against the death penalty so maybe that's the liberal bias.
Her family appealed against her conviction years later, but it was refused on the grounds that the defence of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility did not exist then. They said that she was properly convicted according to the law at the time, and in fact when asked at her trial why she shot David Blakely, she replied "It was obvious that when I shot him I intended to kill him."
@mertonparka Yes thats right. If I remember correctly, it was the only time a women prison officer or governer was not present as was the case when hanging women.
@ozzirt Inglis was dropped in only 7.5 seconds. Actual death takes about 8 minutes, although if the neck is first broken, the condemned is unconscious during this time.
@ozzirt In a sense, a proficient hangman is an angel of mercy to the condemned. Death is unavoidable, although the pain and suffering can be lessened significantly if he does his job properly.
gert you are making assertions here for which there is no proof. LPC4 forms were required to be completed by the prison surgeon after the execution and post 1913, surviving ones do not show asphyxiation. I have seen quite a few of these forms. I am not trying to sanitise executions or am I saying that hanging is pain free.
Asphyxial changes petechiae etc. result from increased BP etc, but LD hanging damages the autonomic NS.
The victim is being asphyxiated by definition - you're preventing them breathing by two methods - 1) occlusion of airways, 2) damage to phrenic nerve.
Question is whether they are conscious while this occurs and for how long? I would suggest this is completely random.........
Oh, one other thing I just noticed in your reply that I don't want to let slip by. You need to take a very close look at the British noose. Because it constricts completely, there is no randomness about closing off blood to the brain. I'd say that using that noose constriction was 100% in all cases.
Death, as in total body death, may well take 25 minutes as was found by doing electrocardiographs on some of the Nazi prisoners in the British sector, all of whom were hanged by Albert.
Exactly - death takes up to 25 minutes, it's from asphyxia.
The long drop is supposed to render the victim unconscious during period of asphyxiation, so they don't feel pain.
if you undergo a long drop hanging, you're going to get massive nerve, muscle and blood vessel damage and a huge smack on the head too, so it seems unlikely you'd be conscious for long, but 1 minute would be an eternity in those curcumstances.
leopard32, people who are very pro-capital punishment tend to sanitise what it actually is. They claim execution methods are pain free, because it deflects the argument away from what capital punishment is really about - i.e. taking violent revenge on those guilty of grave crimes.
If you really wanted to kill people in a pain free way you could give them an overdose of morphine, yet still the US, for example, chooses the electric chair, hanging or lethal injection.
I am not arguing that hanging is painful or pain free. None of us can know for sure. There is plenty of medical opinion that states that if painful the suffering is only for a few seconds.
I do not accept the 80% figure for asphyxia, post 1913. The previous drop table was modified (drop increased from 840 ft/lbs to 1000) to eliminate asphyxia which had been found in some cases.
It is this massive blow to the neck and severance of the spinal cord that causes the unconsciousness.
As to Albert being qualified. Of course he was, he did the week's training at Pentonville and then in effect was apprenticed as an assistant to his uncle Tom.
What Albert was qualified to do was to carry out the sentence of the court. That is the prisoner be "hanged by the neck until dead" or after 1947 "suffer death by hanging". Note the sentence does not refer to instant or pain free death. In Albert's time any botching led to immediate removal from the official list, as happened to Kirk.
The 1913 table of drops was designed to impart an energy of 1000 ft/lbs to the neck. This is a massive blow which would typically cause instant unconsciousness, especially as the position of the eyelet snaps the head backwards.
Typically it takes 0.7 seconds for the person to reach the end of the drop and a further 0.02 secs for the rope to constrict the neck which it does by typically 5 inches. This causes massive constriction to the blood vessels and may cause carotid reflex.
Leopard32, nobody can be sure about any of this. Examination of skeletal remains of long drop hanging victims showed a range of potentially fatal injuries ranging from serious skull fractures to c1- subluxation. It also found fractures located throughout the cervical spine, most of which were improperly placed in the autopsy. Most (80%) showed signs of asphyxiation and it's impossible to know how long they were conscious.
This is the point- it's completely inexact, no matter who pulls the lever
I have the names for all of Albert's executions, plus the names of the executioners for all the 20th century ones in Britain.
600 is not possible. He did 200 in Germany plus the others I have listed in other countries. There were simply not that many executions in Britain between 1932 and 1955 to bump the figure up to 600 and bear in mind Albert wasn't the sole practitioner.
Autopsies were only normally carried out in the 3 London hanging prisons.
The suspended prisoner was examined almost immediately after the drop by the prison doctor to listen to the change in heart beat. Heart action can continue for up to 25 minutes. Leaving the body on the rope for an hour was a) traditional and b) ensured total death. The practice was discontinued after 1957 and the body taken down when no audible heart beat could be found.
@ricmilu He said ruth ellis deserved nothing less than what she got. Most other serial killers and Nazi war crimminals he said if he had his time over "Oh god, I would do it again." This film really poorly portrays his actual stance on capital punishment. Although, he was against hanging murderers who killed in the "heat of the moment" and said the main problem with the death sentence was that "nobody ever wanted it for everybody."
Hi darkmossie - Execution is intended to be cruel. In long drop hanging the cause of death is asphyxiation, and can take many minutes. Even without a noose you would not be able to breath due to loss of diaphragm function, but clinical C1-2-3 fractures rarely cause instant coma, so there's no reason to assume a judicial one would always cause it either - nobody has survived a judicial hanging so there's no way to be sure.
i said in previous note that at end of drop, the heart may go on beating for a few seconds, but the condemned person is unconscious at end of drop- heart stops beating-pronounced dead
what y are saying amounts to all death being by
asphyxiation, -EVEN AFTER HEART STOPS
BEATING???????????????????????????????
right? so if person is shot by firing squad, and the heart stops beating, in effect y are still saying that the shot person still dies of asphxia several minutes after being shot ?
darkmossie - I repeat - a Hangman's fracture does not stop the heart. A fracture at C1 would, but classical hangman's is C2-3, which would only stop the diaphragm
Theory is massive peripheral vasodilataion and resultant hypotension causes coma, so you're unconscious during asphyxiation, but evidence is scant - nobody has survived a judicial hanging to say what happened! People do survive clinical hangman's, however, and they do not usually go into immediate coma unless head trauma is involved.
Buddy, I AM a doc, and bodies were left hanging for an hour for a reason - it took a while to die.
Someone killed by long drop hanging (or a clinical hangman's) WOULD typically show signs of aspyhxiation. There are photos online of Saddam Hussein post long drop and his face shows clear signs of cyanosis and petecheia. You don't have to believe me...... You obviously don't. There is really no physiological reason to assume instant coma occurs post neck dislocation.
@gert83 There is nothing revolutionary in suggesting those hanged eventuall died from asphyxiation, as that is generally accepted. The idea was that the drop would cause massive damage (especially when the eyelet snapped the head backwards), break the neck and clinical death would occur depending on how long the asphyxiation process took.
Think it is a fair assumption the eyelet would render the victim unconscious, although there is no way to be 100% certain.
@habibi1213 long drop hanging is easily botched, and a clinical hangman's fractures doesn't produce instant uncionsciousness unless accompanied by a head injury, so there's no reason to assume a judicial one would render the victim immediately unconscious.
In short - the chance of an excrutiating death is probably very high - it is inhumane.
@gert83 Long drop hanging, when it was done properly according to weight / length of drop calculation charts, actually meant that unconsciousness was to all intents and purposes instantaneous. In other words, the prisoner was already unconscious at the moment of death, which usually followed some minutes afterwards. Ceratinly, it was botched one more than one occasion in the early days, back in the late 19th century, but it was later fine tuned as a science and absolutely was humane.
@habibi1213 on what basis do you think it is fair to assume the eyelet would render the victim unconscious? The brainstem would probably get a good tug, you might get a skull fracture, but none of this is guaranteed.....
@gert83 There is no way to be absolutely certain what pain the victim feels in any circumstance. However, in a standard suspension hanging the victim kicking is quite a visible sign. No signs of physical distress were ever observed during long drop hangings in the 20th century in Britain (including botched ones where no fractures were found in the autopsy).
This strongly suggests through deductive logic, when properly carried out, the loss of consciousness is almost certain.
I don't know why you insist on saying this - let's get this straight - unless dislocation occurs at C1, the heart does not stop beating immediately after a hangman's fracture, OK?
It typically takes a number of minutes (in Saddam Hussein's case 3, but up to 10 is not at all abnormal) for the heart to stop beating.
You're trying to suggest Long Drop hanging is some kind of pain free execution method, when, in fact, it is almost certain to cause excrutiating pain, and, moreover, this is by design.
There's no point in denying what the death penalty is - it's about being cruel to those who have been cruel themselves.
If you want a "pain free" method of inflicting death, think of a hypobaric chamber and oxygen deprivation. You'd probably feel quite euphoric as you breathed your last.
If Im not mistaken, wasn't there medical research conducted in the past, that concluded that a proper judicial hanging was indeed painless? Due to the rapid unconsciousness brought about by the breaking of the neck? The question though I believe will always be murky, since no two people will die alike. For most I believe, rapid seperation of the vertebre in that manner, would be enough to invoke rapid unconsciousness. But for a minority of others, it may not be. Thus great suffering will ensue.
Not that I know of. It's true that one response to a massive shock is coma, and there's some evidene lower order animals (rabbits etc.) lose consciousness very quickly after high cervical sep, but there's also evidence decapitation victims have some moments of consciousness post beheading, and clinical hangman's fracture victims usually die of suffocation, unless they also hurt something else like their head!
I have heard of such medical evidence before about how a decapitated head can live (fully concious) after a beheading,particularly by means of guillotine. That is perhaps the one bit of evidence that I base any logical skepticism about the method of hanging;that a severed spine does not necessarily mean instant unconsciousness. None the less, hanging still seems to be the punishment that is most fair. The condemed meets a quick death,and the victims' party gets the satisfaction of a violent end.
Exactly - the death penalty is about infliction of pain and the science of it is more a kind of pseudo science with opinions about a method's painlessness usually divided according to which side of the pro/against divide you fall on.
It's difficult to see, from a medical perspective, how any commonly used execution methods could be pain free, and the scope for bungling in all of them is huge.
Long-drop hanging is completely inexact - an example of execution pseudo-science. I agree that a C1 fracture-dislocation would result in almost immediate death, but you would maybe achieve that in....10% of hangings? The rest of the time the victim would die of something else - if they were lucky a fractured skull, massive cord damage or vagal stimulation would cause rapid death, if they were unlucky just simple asphyxiation with a high possibiity of consciousness for some time post-dislocation.
The method is indeed an imperfect science, based upon the many possible variables. Which is why Britian employed lone experts in the field to carry out these sentences. I think by the time of Pierrepoint, the method was nearly perfected, proof is that he never performed a botched execution as of record. I believe any kind of suffering in the prisoner would have been apparent in some way or another, unless there was a medical reason that they could be both comatose and conscious of pain?
After British judicial hangings, an autopsy was carried out by a patholigist, for the Coroner to read-if death was by asphyxia, (the symptoms
are protruding tongue, eyes agape, and face flesh tinted to blue/purple) would have been reported-I dont think Pierrpoint would have conducted hangings if he knew the condemded persons had suffocated to death
do you think that the hangman, would have watched or accepted the terrible body contortions of a person dying of asphyxia from British judicial hanging
A) Post hanging autopsy reports were notoriously inaccurate - examination of skeletal remains exhumed from prison grounds by modern paths. has shown they often didn't even place the fracture correctly, and sometimes no neck fracture was present at all.
B) Pierrepoint undoubtedly thought what he was doing was painless. It wouldn't have been painless, the question is how long the pain lasted, and in some, maybe many cases the victim may have been conscious.
darkmossie, out of interest, you seem very passionate in your insistence that long-drop hanging causes instant death. Why?
It's simply a fact that in most cases it doesn't - it's established, attested in any number of text books, autopsy reports, whatever you care to read, so why the insistence that it does?
If your talking after measured drop, you need to take another look at those reports. I think the Ellis autopsy is online somewhere.
It seems by the few autopsy reports that I have seen as well as the reports of the differences between the US and British hangings after WWII that the 2 methods are quite distinct. British judicial hangings seemed to be quite expertly done at the hands of someone who was experienced at doing them. I suppose that's the trick.
The autopsies of hanged prisoners were notoriously innaccurate. Victims were left to hang for an hour before before being examined for vital signs. If death was instant, why not do it immediately?
Death is supposedly caused by comatose asphyxia and it takes 5 - 20 minutes. Spinal shock and hypotension supposedly cause coma, but this is inexact. Some people get spinal shock more easily than others, just the same as some boxers have a glass jaw, others don't.
darkmossie - if you're not going to listen there's no point arguing with you. FYI: - stopping the heart requires a lesion at C1. You'd be lucky to get this in a judicial hanging. More likely you'd get a lesion at C2-3, which would simply paralyse you and stop the diaphragm.
Granted - you might well get other injuries which would render you unconscious as you asphyxiated - a fractured skull for example, but it's far from guaranteed, and death in most long drop hangings is by asphyxiation.
If you severed the cord really high up - and I mean just about in the brainstem, you might damage the vagus nerve. Cutting C2-3 will stop diaphragm function. Lower cervical fractures (4-7)/ would produce tetraplegia only.
Whether you got a C1 or C7 sublux. would be completely random - depending on knot placement, your physique etc.
So how long you'd last and how much youd suffer post long-drop is basically totally random.
I suppose one would need to also define "suffering". If by that you mean conscious in the final seconds knowing you can't feel your body and that life is ebbing away, then yes... I suppose somewhat true. If your talking about being in physical agony? Probably not. Hypoxia is probably the cause of death as blood flow is stopped. Just like a pilot blacking out in a hard turn. The onset of this much more quick then suffocation.
the c2-3 fracture is supposed to cause spinal shock and instant coma, but we're talking about an unqualified bloke dropping someone through a trapdoor with a noose round their neck.
I would not like to bet where, in the cervical spine, a fracture would occur, and modern examination of remains showed evidence of strangulation in 80% of victims.
There are so many variables - knot placement, musculature, general physique - it's an imprecise way of adminstering death at best.
I'd hardly call Albert Pierpoint "unqualified"... would you?
As far as cause of death, I think the medical reports state clearly the differences between a strangulation death and one where the neck was broken. I don't buy that you have support for you 80% figure unless you are speaking of older British executions or US executions. The Brits got it right after 1900.
Oh course he was unqualified! In fact, hanging is so imprecise it's not possible to be "qualified" - there are a million variables which are impossible to account for - how muscular the victim's neck is, exactly where the knot is placed, his weight..it goes on. Examination of remains exhumed from (I think) Liverpool prison dating to the 1950s showed fractures all over the cervical spine, some of which were incomplete, most of which were inaccurately ID'd post mortem!
Albert was never reported to have any of his hangings botched. No reports of any signs of struggle after the drop. This to me makes him qualified. Even doing an activity like loading barrels on a truck, after you do 80 or so of them, you get a pretty good idea of what's going on. I'm thinking that given his background and the fact that he himself did over 400 of them without issue.. speaks for his qualifications as a hangman. There are many reports of botched executions, but not for Albert.
Yes, but "no signs of struggle" only means the victim is paralysed, not dead or even unconscious. A fracture in the cervical spine will paralyse you, but it won't neccesarily kill you. A hangmans' fracture will - by suffocation (paralyses your diaphragm). Very few remains of hanged criminals show c2-3 fracture, most were elsewhere in the cervical spine.
Yes, but that's not what we're talking about here. As I stated earlier, what we're talking about is how long the person is conscious of what has happened to them and how they die. The word "asphyxiation" is being used when that's not the actual modality of death. If you take a look at a British noose you will quickly realize that it constricts completely. Thus there are no signs of suffocation and the cause of death is hypoxia or depletion of oxygen to the brain, not asphyxiation.
We've been through that and it seems like I'm John Cleese arguing for the fun of it after the money has run out.
Please read my previous response about loss of consciousness and death. Your 2 points, your right, it's not immediate as it would take a few moments to pass out, and your wrong because you are apparently not looking up hypoxia is or how quickly it affects the brain once blood flow is cut off. You pass out.. just like a fighter pilot or someone in shallow water blackout, then die.
However you do it, unconsciousness through hypoxia takes minutes. Hypoxia in a barometric chamber (e.g. fighter pilot) hurts less because breathing is not prevented. Hypoxia in any form of hanging, on the other hand, is caused by asphyxiation, and this is agonising. Try holding your breath until you get desperate, then go another 30 seconds, OK? The question is whether long drop renders victim immediately unconscious during asphyxiation?
Couple statements you've made have me wondering if you actually are a doctor. Firstly, unconsciousness from Hypoxia caused by restriction of the blood supply to the brain takes seconds.. not minutes. It's the same as from a sleeper hold, so holding your breath has nothing to do with it. Also, the autopsy reports for those I've found make clear statements that there are no signs of engorgement. or asphyxial changes to the lungs, eyes, tongue or face. A virtual decapitation occurred.
Couple of points Palehearse - hypoxia in a perfused brain takes minutes, you're suggesting hanging occludes carotid etc. - Yes it may (might even tear it!), but this would be totally random, dependent on victim build etc.
2nd Asphyxial changes rely on functioning sympathetic NS system/ phrenic nerve which is usually damaged in a hangmans fracture. All LD hanging victims would show hypoxic changes.
Bottom line - consciousness is possible providing brain is perfused and undamaged.
Not saying unconsciousness is instant, just saying that blackout from a total constriction of the neck would be in a matter of seconds, not minutes. Only slightly longer then decapitation where I would suspect due to a loss of intercranial pressure it would set on a bit sooner. So again, if you read my previous posts on the matter you will see we have little conflicting opinion on the matter. Basically though, British Judicial hangings rank among the most humane as far as I can tell.
Sure, but total constriction of the neck relies on so many variables - it doesn't always occur in short drop or no drop hangings, there's no reason to assume it would in a long drop.
You may not know, but in the 40s and 50s there was quite a lot of pressure on those involved to show that the British way of executing people was the most humane....
Also, there is evidence that consciousness is possible post complete decapitation for up to 30 seconds......
Your quite the dancer. You seem to decide what you will and will not use or admit to depending on how you can best sell your agenda. Contrary to how you paint this, no, folks don't want to see them violently die, they just want to ensure they do. That is what the death penalty is about. do a web search for escaped killer(s) or murderers and you'll quickly find a few poster children for the death penalty. It was clear that no death can be made humane enough for you... your just against it.
I am absolutely opposed to capital punishment, and I find the attempts by the pro-capital punishment lobby to hide their true intentions (i.e. to exact retribution by infliction of violence and pain) utterly reprehensible.
Claiming that various execution methods are painless is one such smoke screen.
Just admit it - it hurts and you want it to! Then we can have a debate about whether that attitude is morally right or not.
I'm absolutely for capital punishment. It's not about retribution, it's about me wanting them gone. It's an unfortunate reality that some people can't be re-introduced into society. Lethal injection is as painless as possible probably, but that's not the point here.
Morally, I have no issue putting to death someone with a basement full of bodies.
It's not the black and white world you want to paint it with sanctimonious statements like you just made. Hurt? no.. gone? Yes.
I simply can't subscribe to your radical views that no crime no matter how reprehensible or repeated warrants the death penalty and that no method will every be humane enough.
I feel that some crimes are so vile and some people so dangerous that they need to be dealt with in a very final way. As to method, I think we have identified 3 thus far that if employed would cause me no lack of sleep for trying to find a better one. It's not about violence, it's about putting the violence to rest.
I think capital punishment can actually increase your problems, not diminish them.
It says very clearly that some lives are worth nothing. In the US it's part of a rather bleak, dog eat-dog culture that produced Enron, the Credit Crisis etc. the biggest wealth gap in the developed world and that demands narcissism.
"stop dancing?!" Bernie Madoff is most likely a diagnosable psychopath, as was Jeff Skilling, Andy Fastow, Dick Fuld, Denis Koslowski, Sam Waksal and a load of others (George Bush? Dick Cheney?).
At one of your society you're stringing these maladjusted creeps up, at the other your dog eat dog culture allows them to prosper, so long as they don't (directly, at least) kill anyone.
Half of america thinks society = socialism, and by stringing these nobodies up you're revocating your societal responsibility for creating these serial killers.
Hardly any American I've spoken to can fathom the idea that these people might be a product of their environment - it's all the responsibility of the individual.
There's more of these creeps in the US than anywhere else, so you must be doing something wrong.
Actually what the US is doing right is finding them where other countries simply deal with the fact that people "disappear". No one just "disappears" inthe us. You don't have some corrupt official simply telling the family that a person "left the country" when they are just another body under their brother in law's house.
But again, this isn't about "some creep", it's about some creep with a fridge full of heads.
Are you for real? So America's crime rate is down to the fact that you catch the crims whereas all those other developed nation police forces either don't or lie about it?
Yup... I'm for real. You look at the countries that are serious about law enforcement and you'll quickly see that these types of crimes are close to if not exactly the same when measured against population. So saying "probably has" won't cut it without hard numbers. If you look at the web page for the British judicial hangings you'll see a whole string of serial killers from the early 1900's.
I think you're deluding yourself. The US is a more violent society than other developed nations, with the possible exception of the UK, which is even more violent than the US if one excludes gun crime and murder. The UK has a very similar dog-eat dog culture - in fact we invented it and exported it to you.
Can't comment on swedish suicide rates, or what it may be attributable to. We're talking about US prevalence of psychopathy and associated disorders, and the evidence is it's higher in individualistic countries such as the US (and UK!) than in those with more communal cultures (e.g. far east).
I'm sure their poverty leads to plenty of depression, most of which probably goes untreated. I doubt they have much psychopathy though.
They don't have (many) big corporations instilling them with a win at all costs grandeur delusion, you see.
Yeah, see you pal, I thought you'd be too narrow minded to draw a link between a culture espousing greed and a personality disorder characterised by greed.
Look the US probably does have more violent crime than other developed countries.
It also has a higher incidence of psychopathy than some other countries - about 4% (or 12 million or so, so most aren't in jail - they might be in the senate or a hedge fund).
This is not all explained by genetics. Americans are not different from other people.
Again, same as with your crime statistics, does that 4% actually represent an increase over other nations or does it represent a society that is good at finding them and getting them on the books so they can get some type of therapy or at least be tracked in some way.
Sweden has the highest suicide rate of any nation. If there was ever a key indicator of the hopelessness you describe it would be there yes? What's their reported rate of mental illness? 4%? Higher? Lower?
No it's an estimate but it's based on obersvation. Other studies have shown a marked increase in narcissistic character traits in US college students since 1987.
You're bringing up a generation whose entire raison d'etre is to ruthlessly consume, what do you expect to happen?
Look at reality TV, or the apprecntice - these effectively advertise the "benefits" of being a manipulative, self aggrandising creep.
Psychopathy is prob. caused by complex interplay of genes (incl. epigenetics) and environment. US culture (& anglo-saxon culture in general) is macho, individualistic and brutal. I don't see why the idea that such a culture could produce high. rates of a disorder characterised by extreme selfishness, violent/ unethical behaviours and prevalent in males should be so controversial.
@gert83 Psychopathic tendencies, at least from what I understand, are genetic (if the environment plays a role it probably does so during pregnancy). A psychopath lacks feelings of empathy (for example) because the areas of the brain that are responsible for those emotions are defective in some way. However, it could be a genetic trait caused by evolution by natural selection, perhaps psychopathic tendencies played a role in our evolutionary past...
@pillsareyummy id twins fostered by diff. families at birth usually share their psychopathy despite diff. upbringing, so genetics does play some role. Environment plays a role too though - aggressive individualist cultures as found in the US or even UK produce higher incidences of psychopathy than communal cultures e.g. scandinavia or far east.
Psychopaths still exist in those communal cultures however.....
@gert83 One has to account for social ideologies, dogmas,etc that can effect 'behaviour'. 'Aggressive societies' may produce aggressive people, however that doesn't fall under the term psychopath. For example, 'dehumanization of the enemy', something that happens during war, wouldn't fall under the term psychopath. Many of these people can still feel empathy for others. A psychopath lacks a moral compass, because the emotional centres of the brain appear to be defective ('bad wiring').
@pillsareyummy There could be loads of reasons, maybe some epigenetic - the idea that the environment switches expression of certain genes on and off.
Mybe there's a psychopath lurking in all of us, just some of us are able to keep the genes switched off, others aren't. It is known t hat normally decent people will readily inflict pain on others under certain circumstances - e.g. when ordered to or authorised to by others.
@gert83 Again, from what I understand, the genetic component has to do with the development of the brain itself; not genes that may effect the neural circuitry of our brains after we are born (effecting neurotransmitters, enzymes, or any other process that effects the processing of data in the brain). Anyway, I'm unaware of any Mono zygotic twin studies that address this...
That's VERY incorrect. Sweden has NOT the highest suicide rate in the world. In fact very FAR from it. They are not even on top of the Scandinavian list, and the Scandinavian countries are not well known for the high suicide rates, because they haven't got it. The highest official rate pr. 2008 is Russia. Sweden's rate is a lower than a third of that.
Claiming these methods are "painless" or "humane" is simply an attempt by the pro capital punishment lobby to dodge the fact that their philosophy espouses violence.
It's pathetic. Some (such as Jay Chapman) have the decency to admit their indifference to the suffering of capital criminals, but not many.
It might sound strange but there was "execution snobbery". The yanks used the electric chair because they were cowboys, and the russians used short drop hanging because they were barely human.
Churchill did want to use the chair for Hitler, though.
Execution is supposed to be violent and brutal, and debates about which method is humane don't contribute to the real issue, which is ethical - they all have potential for botching and they probably all hurt, even lethal injection.
Most sources say that the prisoner was executed wearing their own clothes and this usually meant the clothes he/she was wearing at the trial. This scene shows her wearing pretty much what she wore at her trial. Google British Capital Punishment by Richard Clarke for well researched articles.
Perhaps Pierrepoint looked just like that. I know for sure most of the actress in this film playing the "hangees" looked nothing like the real murderesses.
The best estimate of Albert's execution tally, including being an assistant, is 434, 417 men and 17 women. 200 of these were in Germany after the war. 8 in Austria and 3 in Egypt. Like so many other aspects of the film 600 is simply wrong as was the original title Last Hangman. It was obviously pointed out the makers that hanging continued for more than 8 years after Albert resigned.
Yes, I agree that this film was disappointing. Spall was hopelesly miscast with his silly facial gestures and physical disimilarity to Pierrepoint. The storyline was fiction.
The additional hangings may.. and I do say may because I have little supporting evidence, have been carried out in Scotland and Ireland. There was some speculation at the time that the additional hangings that Albert claimed at the time were many where the hangman was not named. It would stand to reason that if you were in Ireland or Scotland and had a hanging to do that one might call on Albert to do them quietly and with no recognition. Hard to say. Did Albert every publish his logbook?
Pale Hearse, the figure I gave includes hangings in Ireland and Scotland. Albert took over from his uncle Tom in the Irish Republic and carried out all the executions there.
Yes.. I have probably seen the same list you have. What I was wondering is if there were any hangings done where the name of the hangman was not recorded. It's totally plausible that Albert himself puffed up the numbers. Human nature that. Just wondering if his 600 figure could be supported by his log.
Well one could but I would say that the condemned has been tried by a jury and has a defence lawyer. Whereas the Nazi death squads just slaughtered innocent people without trial or defense
Albert Pierrpoint hanged Irma Grese, Juana Bormann and Elisabeth Volkenrath, three of the SS guards... All three women were tried at the Belsen Trial and found guilty.
SHE MURDERED HER MAN, SHE GOT WHAT I WOULD HAVE GIVEN HER. END OF STORY.
michaelwright999 1 month ago
It is worthwhile seeing the film 'Dance With A Stranger' about Ruth Ellis which convinced me that she should not have been hanged in view of the violence she suffered at the hands of David Blakely. I am in favour of hanging for the most extreme cases such as child murder and would have been happy to see the likes of Myra Hindley and Rose West on the end of a rope.
6edTelevision 2 months ago
The "peroxide blonde" slutty look Ruth is known for was one adopted towards the end of her life, at the behest of Desmond Cussons who had an influence over her and was a shadowy figure almost certainly involved with the intelligence services. As probably intended, it did her no good in court nor in engendered public sympathy.
noonsight2010 4 months ago
Pierrepoints fastest hanging: 10.3 seconds. The most accurate on screen is that in "10 Rillington Place" where Timothy Evans (played by John Hurt) is hanged. Even the time is accurate,not all details are correct. Below is a lot of speculation over one of the closest guarded state secrets. It was intended that death should be instantaneous with long-drop, through dislocation of vertebrae. Often went wrong most of the remarks below are on details not in the public domain.
ex-Crime Museum
noonsight2010 4 months ago
type42sheff
Harry Allen was never strictly a hangman, only ever a "number 2" to hangmen. "The Last Hangman" is, If I remember the title of his book (years since I read it). He was the last surviving no1 or no2. Some of his items (working model gallows etc) are in the Crime Museum at New Scotland Yard.
noonsight2010 4 months ago
why does he look like he is cumming???
benohudo 4 months ago
Harry allen the last hangman.
type42sheff 5 months ago
It should be remembered that Pierrepoint was not the "last hangman" and there is no "last" execution in Britain. The last two hangings took place in 1964 simultaneously in different prisons to avoid (in)famous "lasts". There are technical errors in the clip.
Ruth Ellis was most likely given her gun by Desmond Cussons, which she discharged without killing David Blakely. Cussons was probably waiting downhill from the Magdela pub and killed him as he fled.
Former Crime (Black) Museum staff.
noonsight2010 5 months ago
@noonsight2010 you just going to rewrite history on youtube, Ruth Ellis took 3 shots the first 2 missed. When the 3rd caught him she stood over him and took 2 more shots killing him. Then turned the gun on herself but the gun jammed. After that she was arrested by an off duty police officer
highnine9 4 months ago
@highnine9
As ex-curatorial staff at the Crime (nee Black) Museum at New Scotland Yard I think I know more than most. I've handled the revolver produced in court (there is doubt it was the one actually in Ruth's possession). The Smith and Wesson 4" barrel .38 is difficult for trained firearms officers to use. I've fired one on a Police range. Not easy and I was familiar with firearms. Ruth discharged her revolver (supplied by Cussons) but almost certainly did not hit Blakely. Cont...
noonsight2010 4 months ago
@noonsight2010 I hear you, why do you believe they convicted the wrong person for, just to save face ?
highnine9 4 months ago
@highnine9
It seems Ruth was involved in intelligence surveillence of some sort, involving prominent people. Stephen Ward (Profumo) was involved. The truth is very obscure. An interesting fact is that Justice Havers paid for Ruth's sons private education after her execution. Unprecedented. Later, prosecuting counsel, Christmas Humphries paid for him to move to better accomodation from a dingy flat. When he committed suicide many tape recordings supposedly went missing.
noonsight2010 4 months ago
@highnine9
There has been a massive cover-up of some sort.
noonsight2010 4 months ago
@highnine9
Rith was extremely myopic but chose not to wear glasses for the sake of vanity. She also had arthritic hands, making it virtually impossible for her to have fired the .38.
It is possible she was involved in work for the intelligence services - taping prominent people in her club. Furthermore there are other irregularities in the police investigation, her custody in prison (Cussons got access to her)and even in respect of her post-mortem. An effort was made to blur the truth.
noonsight2010 4 months ago
@highnine9
I've been to the Magdela Public House and met both Ruth's sister and a historian on the case.
noonsight2010 4 months ago
@noonsight2010 judging by the reaction to my comment I stand corrected, I wondered why there was such an out cry to what seems like a close and shut case
highnine9 4 months ago
Ruth Ellis,one of the biggest miscariages of justice in British history! "Pierrepoint" as docu-dramas go was ok but without Spall it would've bombed!
popazz1 6 months ago
@popazz1
When I read of a nasty crime such as the killings of Holly and Jessica I know I could put a bullet through the head of the bast**d that did it and not lose a minutes sleep over it.
But for me the killing of Ruth Ellis will always be an overwhelming argument for never bringing back capital punishment. The problem was never her guilt of shooting the low life that treated her so badly but the inhumanity of the legal establishment and the judges who did not take this into account.
TheSpiritof1969 5 months ago
@TheSpiritof1969 ,
I do take your point.The likes of Ian Huntley,Fred,(had he not topped himself), & Rose West will never be rehabilitated so they can re-enter society & at the risk of sounding mercenary are simply a drain on tax-payers' money.Ruth Ellis,on the other hand,was tragically a victim of a male-dominated judicial system with little regard for victims of domestic violence.I believe that so long as there are miscariages of justice Britain won't see a return of the death penalty.
popazz1 5 months ago
@TheSpiritof1969 Seriously is this all you fucking do? Go on hanging vids to start shit? you fucking fat sloppy aussie slut of a cunt!
BlitzkriegOwnage 5 months ago
If you actually read Albert pierrepoints autobiography he started assisting his father in executions at a early age also when he resigned he was against capital punishment he said that capital punishment does not act as a deterrent but to exact revenge I am pro death penalty but only if the case can be proved beyond reasonable doubt if there is one shred of doubt no death penalty
12mikes82 8 months ago
@Dbobz456 They're not the police. They're prison officials.
eggmangoogoogoojoob 9 months ago
@Dbobz456
Safety. They are not standing on solid ground, but on narrow planks placed over the trap door. If they somehow stand in the wrong place when the trapdoor is released they can hold onto the rope and not fell down.
knutgordon 1 year ago
disregarding the moral issues for or against capital punishment, this film was superb and Timothy Spall, as ever, is brilliant.
squeezycheeseypeas 1 year ago
@squeezycheeseypeas I agree. The film is riddled with factual and technical inaccuracies - not the least of them being that Albert Pierrepoint was not in fact 'the last hangman' in the UK - and it was rightly criticised for promoting left wing liberal views on capital punishment with total disregard for its supporters and the details of execution. But if you accept that it is fundamentally flawed in that respect, it's a reasonable movie and Timothy Spall is excellent.
eggmangoogoogoojoob 9 months ago
@eggmangoogoogoojoob The film in the UK was simply called Pierrepoint the American version was called The Last Hangman, you're certainly right about the inaccuracies he actually didn't know James Corbitt (tish/tosh) that well. much of the dialogue was a device in order to get the sentiments of the time and the order of events across to the audience efficiently. Pierrepoint ended up being an advocate against the death penalty so maybe that's the liberal bias.
squeezycheeseypeas 9 months ago
During his time, Albert Pierrepoint was a respected figure in English life.
By the way, he hung most of the nazi war criminals after the Nuremberg trials.
ThePresterJohn 1 year ago
IT SEEMS LIKE PAUL OAF 4 IS OBSESSED BY HANGING, I THINK HE SECRETLY LIKES IT.
birdandthe 1 year ago
Her family appealed against her conviction years later, but it was refused on the grounds that the defence of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility did not exist then. They said that she was properly convicted according to the law at the time, and in fact when asked at her trial why she shot David Blakely, she replied "It was obvious that when I shot him I intended to kill him."
Paulph04 1 year ago
look at those thin necks snap just like a brittle twig wheeeeeeee
glasgowtalisman 1 year ago
Finland has the second highest
blockthehood 1 year ago
Ruth ellis was held on the trap by two male prison officers not two women as depicted in this film. There are two many technical flaws in this film.
mertonparka 1 year ago
@mertonparka bit like your spelling flaws
shanondor 1 year ago
@mertonparka Yes thats right. If I remember correctly, it was the only time a women prison officer or governer was not present as was the case when hanging women.
Trek001 1 year ago
Albert would be spinning in his grave. He was a lot quicker than that.
ozzirt 2 years ago 2
@ozzirt hanging in his grave :P
TheofficialTARDIStv 1 year ago
@ozzirt - it's being done in slow motion for dramatic effect.... Look at the speed with which she drops through the trap
peterkar 1 year ago
@peterkar
Peter, do you honestly think that I could not see that?
James Inglis was dead only 7.5 seconds after walking onto the trap.
ozzirt 1 year ago
@ozzirt Inglis was dropped in only 7.5 seconds. Actual death takes about 8 minutes, although if the neck is first broken, the condemned is unconscious during this time.
hoosierdaddy3277 1 year ago
@hoosierdaddy3277 A technicallty, My point remains,... Albert was a LOT faster than shown in the movie.
I believe that the present hangman in Singapore at present is also very fast taking only seconds.
ozzirt 1 year ago
@ozzirt In a sense, a proficient hangman is an angel of mercy to the condemned. Death is unavoidable, although the pain and suffering can be lessened significantly if he does his job properly.
hoosierdaddy3277 1 year ago
@hoosierdaddy3277 That's about it. It's gunna go down, so he may as well make it quick.
ozzirt 1 year ago
gert you are making assertions here for which there is no proof. LPC4 forms were required to be completed by the prison surgeon after the execution and post 1913, surviving ones do not show asphyxiation. I have seen quite a few of these forms. I am not trying to sanitise executions or am I saying that hanging is pain free.
leopard32 2 years ago
Asphyxial changes petechiae etc. result from increased BP etc, but LD hanging damages the autonomic NS.
The victim is being asphyxiated by definition - you're preventing them breathing by two methods - 1) occlusion of airways, 2) damage to phrenic nerve.
Question is whether they are conscious while this occurs and for how long? I would suggest this is completely random.........
gert83 2 years ago
Oh, one other thing I just noticed in your reply that I don't want to let slip by. You need to take a very close look at the British noose. Because it constricts completely, there is no randomness about closing off blood to the brain. I'd say that using that noose constriction was 100% in all cases.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
Death, as in total body death, may well take 25 minutes as was found by doing electrocardiographs on some of the Nazi prisoners in the British sector, all of whom were hanged by Albert.
leopard32 2 years ago
Exactly - death takes up to 25 minutes, it's from asphyxia.
The long drop is supposed to render the victim unconscious during period of asphyxiation, so they don't feel pain.
if you undergo a long drop hanging, you're going to get massive nerve, muscle and blood vessel damage and a huge smack on the head too, so it seems unlikely you'd be conscious for long, but 1 minute would be an eternity in those curcumstances.
gert83 2 years ago
leopard32, people who are very pro-capital punishment tend to sanitise what it actually is. They claim execution methods are pain free, because it deflects the argument away from what capital punishment is really about - i.e. taking violent revenge on those guilty of grave crimes.
If you really wanted to kill people in a pain free way you could give them an overdose of morphine, yet still the US, for example, chooses the electric chair, hanging or lethal injection.
gert83 2 years ago
I am not arguing that hanging is painful or pain free. None of us can know for sure. There is plenty of medical opinion that states that if painful the suffering is only for a few seconds.
I do not accept the 80% figure for asphyxia, post 1913. The previous drop table was modified (drop increased from 840 ft/lbs to 1000) to eliminate asphyxia which had been found in some cases.
It is this massive blow to the neck and severance of the spinal cord that causes the unconsciousness.
leopard32 2 years ago
Yeah, but I'm arguing with misguided people who think long drop hanging causes instant death, or is pain free.
It rarely causes instant death, and is unlikely to be pain free.
gert83 2 years ago
As to Albert being qualified. Of course he was, he did the week's training at Pentonville and then in effect was apprenticed as an assistant to his uncle Tom.
What Albert was qualified to do was to carry out the sentence of the court. That is the prisoner be "hanged by the neck until dead" or after 1947 "suffer death by hanging". Note the sentence does not refer to instant or pain free death. In Albert's time any botching led to immediate removal from the official list, as happened to Kirk.
leopard32 2 years ago
OK fine, but the argument is whether long drop hanging is painful. Probably for the majority of victims the answer is yes, very.
gert83 2 years ago
The 1913 table of drops was designed to impart an energy of 1000 ft/lbs to the neck. This is a massive blow which would typically cause instant unconsciousness, especially as the position of the eyelet snaps the head backwards.
Typically it takes 0.7 seconds for the person to reach the end of the drop and a further 0.02 secs for the rope to constrict the neck which it does by typically 5 inches. This causes massive constriction to the blood vessels and may cause carotid reflex.
leopard32 2 years ago
Leopard32, nobody can be sure about any of this. Examination of skeletal remains of long drop hanging victims showed a range of potentially fatal injuries ranging from serious skull fractures to c1- subluxation. It also found fractures located throughout the cervical spine, most of which were improperly placed in the autopsy. Most (80%) showed signs of asphyxiation and it's impossible to know how long they were conscious.
This is the point- it's completely inexact, no matter who pulls the lever
gert83 2 years ago
I have the names for all of Albert's executions, plus the names of the executioners for all the 20th century ones in Britain.
600 is not possible. He did 200 in Germany plus the others I have listed in other countries. There were simply not that many executions in Britain between 1932 and 1955 to bump the figure up to 600 and bear in mind Albert wasn't the sole practitioner.
leopard32 2 years ago
Autopsies were only normally carried out in the 3 London hanging prisons.
The suspended prisoner was examined almost immediately after the drop by the prison doctor to listen to the change in heart beat. Heart action can continue for up to 25 minutes. Leaving the body on the rope for an hour was a) traditional and b) ensured total death. The practice was discontinued after 1957 and the body taken down when no audible heart beat could be found.
leopard32 2 years ago
Has anyone read Pierrpoints autobiography? What did he say about ellis and her final moments.
He also executed the blackout ripper, did he mention him at all? Thanks.
ricmilu 2 years ago
@ricmilu He said ruth ellis deserved nothing less than what she got. Most other serial killers and Nazi war crimminals he said if he had his time over "Oh god, I would do it again." This film really poorly portrays his actual stance on capital punishment. Although, he was against hanging murderers who killed in the "heat of the moment" and said the main problem with the death sentence was that "nobody ever wanted it for everybody."
habibi1213 1 year ago
I think if there had been any cruelty in this type of execution, it would have been stopped.
After the "DROP", the assistant hangman would rush downstairs, to join the doctor, ready to pronounce death, even though the heart may go
on beating for a few to a maximum of 20 seconds, the executed person was not conscious in these "seconds"-clinically dead at the end of "drop"
if there had been any doubt about this and i'm talking to you "gert", the prison doctor would have reported it
darkmossie633 2 years ago
well
if all else fails
just use DYNAMITE-that should do it instantly
-or ban it worldwide altogether, as this argument gets more and more, and more ridiculous
but anything has got to to better than the crazy
American ideas of the" sadistic "ELECTRIC CHAIR" or "GAS CHAMBER"
darkmossie633 2 years ago
Hi darkmossie - Execution is intended to be cruel. In long drop hanging the cause of death is asphyxiation, and can take many minutes. Even without a noose you would not be able to breath due to loss of diaphragm function, but clinical C1-2-3 fractures rarely cause instant coma, so there's no reason to assume a judicial one would always cause it either - nobody has survived a judicial hanging so there's no way to be sure.
gert83 2 years ago
i said in previous note that at end of drop, the heart may go on beating for a few seconds, but the condemned person is unconscious at end of drop- heart stops beating-pronounced dead
what y are saying amounts to all death being by
asphyxiation, -EVEN AFTER HEART STOPS
BEATING???????????????????????????????
right? so if person is shot by firing squad, and the heart stops beating, in effect y are still saying that the shot person still dies of asphxia several minutes after being shot ?
darkmossie633 2 years ago
your proposition means that even in "peaceful death" (after heart stops beating,)death is actually caused by eventual asphyxiation minutes later
-if your theory is right, from now on people will
fear death like NEVER BEFORE!
u are quite mad
darkmossie633 2 years ago
darkmossie - I repeat - a Hangman's fracture does not stop the heart. A fracture at C1 would, but classical hangman's is C2-3, which would only stop the diaphragm
Theory is massive peripheral vasodilataion and resultant hypotension causes coma, so you're unconscious during asphyxiation, but evidence is scant - nobody has survived a judicial hanging to say what happened! People do survive clinical hangman's, however, and they do not usually go into immediate coma unless head trauma is involved.
gert83 2 years ago
how come when prison doctors went to long drop hanged people, to confirm death, seconds after drop, and confirmed the heart had stopped?
Also, do you know the "body marks" as the Coroner will call them,(of executed people too) in people who have died of asphysia?
you tell me- i know as i come from a family deeply
informed and practised in medicine
your comments are dangerous, suggesting and
proposing, that ALL eventual death peaceful or of any kind, is by painful asphysia
darkmossie633 2 years ago
Buddy, I AM a doc, and bodies were left hanging for an hour for a reason - it took a while to die.
Someone killed by long drop hanging (or a clinical hangman's) WOULD typically show signs of aspyhxiation. There are photos online of Saddam Hussein post long drop and his face shows clear signs of cyanosis and petecheia. You don't have to believe me...... You obviously don't. There is really no physiological reason to assume instant coma occurs post neck dislocation.
gert83 2 years ago
@gert83 There is nothing revolutionary in suggesting those hanged eventuall died from asphyxiation, as that is generally accepted. The idea was that the drop would cause massive damage (especially when the eyelet snapped the head backwards), break the neck and clinical death would occur depending on how long the asphyxiation process took.
Think it is a fair assumption the eyelet would render the victim unconscious, although there is no way to be 100% certain.
habibi1213 1 year ago
@habibi1213 long drop hanging is easily botched, and a clinical hangman's fractures doesn't produce instant uncionsciousness unless accompanied by a head injury, so there's no reason to assume a judicial one would render the victim immediately unconscious.
In short - the chance of an excrutiating death is probably very high - it is inhumane.
gert83 1 year ago
@gert83 Long drop hanging, when it was done properly according to weight / length of drop calculation charts, actually meant that unconsciousness was to all intents and purposes instantaneous. In other words, the prisoner was already unconscious at the moment of death, which usually followed some minutes afterwards. Ceratinly, it was botched one more than one occasion in the early days, back in the late 19th century, but it was later fine tuned as a science and absolutely was humane.
eggmangoogoogoojoob 9 months ago
@habibi1213 on what basis do you think it is fair to assume the eyelet would render the victim unconscious? The brainstem would probably get a good tug, you might get a skull fracture, but none of this is guaranteed.....
gert83 1 year ago
@gert83 There is no way to be absolutely certain what pain the victim feels in any circumstance. However, in a standard suspension hanging the victim kicking is quite a visible sign. No signs of physical distress were ever observed during long drop hangings in the 20th century in Britain (including botched ones where no fractures were found in the autopsy).
This strongly suggests through deductive logic, when properly carried out, the loss of consciousness is almost certain.
habibi1213 1 year ago
Thank you for confirming this. I keep reading confilcting accounts of it.
Mr76Yearsago 2 years ago
it is confirmed only by Gert - not me!
Gert's proposition suggests that EVEN after heart stops beating ,ALL EVENTUAL DEATH is caused by
ASPHYXIA
darkmossie633 2 years ago
I don't know why you insist on saying this - let's get this straight - unless dislocation occurs at C1, the heart does not stop beating immediately after a hangman's fracture, OK?
It typically takes a number of minutes (in Saddam Hussein's case 3, but up to 10 is not at all abnormal) for the heart to stop beating.
OK?
gert83 2 years ago
You're trying to suggest Long Drop hanging is some kind of pain free execution method, when, in fact, it is almost certain to cause excrutiating pain, and, moreover, this is by design.
There's no point in denying what the death penalty is - it's about being cruel to those who have been cruel themselves.
If you want a "pain free" method of inflicting death, think of a hypobaric chamber and oxygen deprivation. You'd probably feel quite euphoric as you breathed your last.
gert83 2 years ago
If Im not mistaken, wasn't there medical research conducted in the past, that concluded that a proper judicial hanging was indeed painless? Due to the rapid unconsciousness brought about by the breaking of the neck? The question though I believe will always be murky, since no two people will die alike. For most I believe, rapid seperation of the vertebre in that manner, would be enough to invoke rapid unconsciousness. But for a minority of others, it may not be. Thus great suffering will ensue.
billybobmacguyver 2 years ago
Not that I know of. It's true that one response to a massive shock is coma, and there's some evidene lower order animals (rabbits etc.) lose consciousness very quickly after high cervical sep, but there's also evidence decapitation victims have some moments of consciousness post beheading, and clinical hangman's fracture victims usually die of suffocation, unless they also hurt something else like their head!
gert83 2 years ago
I have heard of such medical evidence before about how a decapitated head can live (fully concious) after a beheading,particularly by means of guillotine. That is perhaps the one bit of evidence that I base any logical skepticism about the method of hanging;that a severed spine does not necessarily mean instant unconsciousness. None the less, hanging still seems to be the punishment that is most fair. The condemed meets a quick death,and the victims' party gets the satisfaction of a violent end.
billybobmacguyver 2 years ago
Exactly - the death penalty is about infliction of pain and the science of it is more a kind of pseudo science with opinions about a method's painlessness usually divided according to which side of the pro/against divide you fall on.
It's difficult to see, from a medical perspective, how any commonly used execution methods could be pain free, and the scope for bungling in all of them is huge.
gert83 2 years ago
Long-drop hanging is completely inexact - an example of execution pseudo-science. I agree that a C1 fracture-dislocation would result in almost immediate death, but you would maybe achieve that in....10% of hangings? The rest of the time the victim would die of something else - if they were lucky a fractured skull, massive cord damage or vagal stimulation would cause rapid death, if they were unlucky just simple asphyxiation with a high possibiity of consciousness for some time post-dislocation.
gert83 2 years ago
The method is indeed an imperfect science, based upon the many possible variables. Which is why Britian employed lone experts in the field to carry out these sentences. I think by the time of Pierrepoint, the method was nearly perfected, proof is that he never performed a botched execution as of record. I believe any kind of suffering in the prisoner would have been apparent in some way or another, unless there was a medical reason that they could be both comatose and conscious of pain?
billybobmacguyver 2 years ago
After British judicial hangings, an autopsy was carried out by a patholigist, for the Coroner to read-if death was by asphyxia, (the symptoms
are protruding tongue, eyes agape, and face flesh tinted to blue/purple) would have been reported-I dont think Pierrpoint would have conducted hangings if he knew the condemded persons had suffocated to death
read pathologist report on Ruth Evans corpse
or are you suggesting there was huge "cover-up"
for all those years Gert?
darkmossie633 2 years ago
do you think that the hangman, would have watched or accepted the terrible body contortions of a person dying of asphyxia from British judicial hanging
-the answer is NO
darkmossie633 2 years ago
You can't engage in "terrible body contortions" if you've been rendered quadriplegic.
Any serious lesion between C1 - 8 will produce quadriplegia.
gert83 2 years ago
A) Post hanging autopsy reports were notoriously inaccurate - examination of skeletal remains exhumed from prison grounds by modern paths. has shown they often didn't even place the fracture correctly, and sometimes no neck fracture was present at all.
B) Pierrepoint undoubtedly thought what he was doing was painless. It wouldn't have been painless, the question is how long the pain lasted, and in some, maybe many cases the victim may have been conscious.
gert83 2 years ago
sorry, correction to last comment-meant Ruth Ellis
darkmossie633 2 years ago
darkmossie, out of interest, you seem very passionate in your insistence that long-drop hanging causes instant death. Why?
It's simply a fact that in most cases it doesn't - it's established, attested in any number of text books, autopsy reports, whatever you care to read, so why the insistence that it does?
gert83 2 years ago
some of my comments have been removed that totally refute your argument, regarding reports for Coroner
write a book about aspyhixia, proposing that all death is by aspyhxia
and patholigist autopsys rigged and untrue on
all British hangings
and that all British stethoscopes to declare
person dead within seconds of execution, also faulty
you totally crazy
-last comment
darkmossie633 2 years ago
What era?
If your talking after measured drop, you need to take another look at those reports. I think the Ellis autopsy is online somewhere.
It seems by the few autopsy reports that I have seen as well as the reports of the differences between the US and British hangings after WWII that the 2 methods are quite distinct. British judicial hangings seemed to be quite expertly done at the hands of someone who was experienced at doing them. I suppose that's the trick.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
The autopsies of hanged prisoners were notoriously innaccurate. Victims were left to hang for an hour before before being examined for vital signs. If death was instant, why not do it immediately?
Death is supposedly caused by comatose asphyxia and it takes 5 - 20 minutes. Spinal shock and hypotension supposedly cause coma, but this is inexact. Some people get spinal shock more easily than others, just the same as some boxers have a glass jaw, others don't.
gert83 2 years ago
yes the Ellis autopsy is online, and it declared that death was instant, and there were no visible signs of asphyxia, but to be honest palehearse,
ive had my say on this debate, and though I agree with what you say totally, I dont want to be drawn into anymore dispute over judicial hanging
-still, i think its a good film, haunting, and frightening, and that Albert was a master hangman
darkmossie633 2 years ago
If someone has their neck broken they can't struggle. They're hooded and they're left hanging for an hour before the doctor confirms death.
So no struggling would be evident even if the victim were conscious and suffering.
gert83 2 years ago
correction-prison doctor would IMMEDIATELY confirm death after drop, NOT one hour later
darkmossie633 2 years ago
darkmossie - if you're not going to listen there's no point arguing with you. FYI: - stopping the heart requires a lesion at C1. You'd be lucky to get this in a judicial hanging. More likely you'd get a lesion at C2-3, which would simply paralyse you and stop the diaphragm.
Granted - you might well get other injuries which would render you unconscious as you asphyxiated - a fractured skull for example, but it's far from guaranteed, and death in most long drop hangings is by asphyxiation.
gert83 2 years ago
If you severed the cord really high up - and I mean just about in the brainstem, you might damage the vagus nerve. Cutting C2-3 will stop diaphragm function. Lower cervical fractures (4-7)/ would produce tetraplegia only.
Whether you got a C1 or C7 sublux. would be completely random - depending on knot placement, your physique etc.
So how long you'd last and how much youd suffer post long-drop is basically totally random.
gert83 2 years ago
I suppose one would need to also define "suffering". If by that you mean conscious in the final seconds knowing you can't feel your body and that life is ebbing away, then yes... I suppose somewhat true. If your talking about being in physical agony? Probably not. Hypoxia is probably the cause of death as blood flow is stopped. Just like a pilot blacking out in a hard turn. The onset of this much more quick then suffocation.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
the c2-3 fracture is supposed to cause spinal shock and instant coma, but we're talking about an unqualified bloke dropping someone through a trapdoor with a noose round their neck.
I would not like to bet where, in the cervical spine, a fracture would occur, and modern examination of remains showed evidence of strangulation in 80% of victims.
There are so many variables - knot placement, musculature, general physique - it's an imprecise way of adminstering death at best.
gert83 2 years ago
I'd hardly call Albert Pierpoint "unqualified"... would you?
As far as cause of death, I think the medical reports state clearly the differences between a strangulation death and one where the neck was broken. I don't buy that you have support for you 80% figure unless you are speaking of older British executions or US executions. The Brits got it right after 1900.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
Oh course he was unqualified! In fact, hanging is so imprecise it's not possible to be "qualified" - there are a million variables which are impossible to account for - how muscular the victim's neck is, exactly where the knot is placed, his weight..it goes on. Examination of remains exhumed from (I think) Liverpool prison dating to the 1950s showed fractures all over the cervical spine, some of which were incomplete, most of which were inaccurately ID'd post mortem!
gert83 2 years ago
Albert was never reported to have any of his hangings botched. No reports of any signs of struggle after the drop. This to me makes him qualified. Even doing an activity like loading barrels on a truck, after you do 80 or so of them, you get a pretty good idea of what's going on. I'm thinking that given his background and the fact that he himself did over 400 of them without issue.. speaks for his qualifications as a hangman. There are many reports of botched executions, but not for Albert.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
Yes, but "no signs of struggle" only means the victim is paralysed, not dead or even unconscious. A fracture in the cervical spine will paralyse you, but it won't neccesarily kill you. A hangmans' fracture will - by suffocation (paralyses your diaphragm). Very few remains of hanged criminals show c2-3 fracture, most were elsewhere in the cervical spine.
gert83 2 years ago
Yes, but that's not what we're talking about here. As I stated earlier, what we're talking about is how long the person is conscious of what has happened to them and how they die. The word "asphyxiation" is being used when that's not the actual modality of death. If you take a look at a British noose you will quickly realize that it constricts completely. Thus there are no signs of suffocation and the cause of death is hypoxia or depletion of oxygen to the brain, not asphyxiation.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
Hanging of any description causes asphyxiation, either by airway constriction and/ or c2-3 lesion. Hypoxia then results from this asphyxiation. OK?
The intended mode of death in long drop hangings is asphyxiation. The victim is supposedly unconscious as they asphyxiate, due to spinal shock.
OK? Is that clear?
gert83 2 years ago
We've been through that and it seems like I'm John Cleese arguing for the fun of it after the money has run out.
Please read my previous response about loss of consciousness and death. Your 2 points, your right, it's not immediate as it would take a few moments to pass out, and your wrong because you are apparently not looking up hypoxia is or how quickly it affects the brain once blood flow is cut off. You pass out.. just like a fighter pilot or someone in shallow water blackout, then die.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
However you do it, unconsciousness through hypoxia takes minutes. Hypoxia in a barometric chamber (e.g. fighter pilot) hurts less because breathing is not prevented. Hypoxia in any form of hanging, on the other hand, is caused by asphyxiation, and this is agonising. Try holding your breath until you get desperate, then go another 30 seconds, OK? The question is whether long drop renders victim immediately unconscious during asphyxiation?
In many cases, probably not is the answer.
gert83 2 years ago
Couple statements you've made have me wondering if you actually are a doctor. Firstly, unconsciousness from Hypoxia caused by restriction of the blood supply to the brain takes seconds.. not minutes. It's the same as from a sleeper hold, so holding your breath has nothing to do with it. Also, the autopsy reports for those I've found make clear statements that there are no signs of engorgement. or asphyxial changes to the lungs, eyes, tongue or face. A virtual decapitation occurred.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
Couple of points Palehearse - hypoxia in a perfused brain takes minutes, you're suggesting hanging occludes carotid etc. - Yes it may (might even tear it!), but this would be totally random, dependent on victim build etc.
2nd Asphyxial changes rely on functioning sympathetic NS system/ phrenic nerve which is usually damaged in a hangmans fracture. All LD hanging victims would show hypoxic changes.
Bottom line - consciousness is possible providing brain is perfused and undamaged.
gert83 2 years ago
Not saying unconsciousness is instant, just saying that blackout from a total constriction of the neck would be in a matter of seconds, not minutes. Only slightly longer then decapitation where I would suspect due to a loss of intercranial pressure it would set on a bit sooner. So again, if you read my previous posts on the matter you will see we have little conflicting opinion on the matter. Basically though, British Judicial hangings rank among the most humane as far as I can tell.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
Sure, but total constriction of the neck relies on so many variables - it doesn't always occur in short drop or no drop hangings, there's no reason to assume it would in a long drop.
You may not know, but in the 40s and 50s there was quite a lot of pressure on those involved to show that the British way of executing people was the most humane....
Also, there is evidence that consciousness is possible post complete decapitation for up to 30 seconds......
gert83 2 years ago
Your quite the dancer. You seem to decide what you will and will not use or admit to depending on how you can best sell your agenda. Contrary to how you paint this, no, folks don't want to see them violently die, they just want to ensure they do. That is what the death penalty is about. do a web search for escaped killer(s) or murderers and you'll quickly find a few poster children for the death penalty. It was clear that no death can be made humane enough for you... your just against it.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
I am absolutely opposed to capital punishment, and I find the attempts by the pro-capital punishment lobby to hide their true intentions (i.e. to exact retribution by infliction of violence and pain) utterly reprehensible.
Claiming that various execution methods are painless is one such smoke screen.
Just admit it - it hurts and you want it to! Then we can have a debate about whether that attitude is morally right or not.
gert83 2 years ago
I'm absolutely for capital punishment. It's not about retribution, it's about me wanting them gone. It's an unfortunate reality that some people can't be re-introduced into society. Lethal injection is as painless as possible probably, but that's not the point here.
Morally, I have no issue putting to death someone with a basement full of bodies.
It's not the black and white world you want to paint it with sanctimonious statements like you just made. Hurt? no.. gone? Yes.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
Sorry - it's the pro-capital punishment lobby who view the world as black and white, good and evil.
Only primary psychopaths could be viewed as incurably evil, and they'd only constitute 50% of capital criminals.
And the death penalty is about violence - an eye for an eye. Simple.
gert83 2 years ago
I simply can't subscribe to your radical views that no crime no matter how reprehensible or repeated warrants the death penalty and that no method will every be humane enough.
I feel that some crimes are so vile and some people so dangerous that they need to be dealt with in a very final way. As to method, I think we have identified 3 thus far that if employed would cause me no lack of sleep for trying to find a better one. It's not about violence, it's about putting the violence to rest.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
I think capital punishment can actually increase your problems, not diminish them.
It says very clearly that some lives are worth nothing. In the US it's part of a rather bleak, dog eat-dog culture that produced Enron, the Credit Crisis etc. the biggest wealth gap in the developed world and that demands narcissism.
gert83 2 years ago
Look at the people who get the death sentence in the US - they're invariably society's dregs.
gert83 2 years ago
Dregs with a basement full of bodies. Stop dancing and trying to make it sound like Bernie Madoff was responsible for the beltway sniper or Ted Bundy.
These people did what they did due to selfish motivation ant a total disregard for humanity.
Because of this, the vast majority of people want capital punishment to be an option.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
"stop dancing?!" Bernie Madoff is most likely a diagnosable psychopath, as was Jeff Skilling, Andy Fastow, Dick Fuld, Denis Koslowski, Sam Waksal and a load of others (George Bush? Dick Cheney?).
At one of your society you're stringing these maladjusted creeps up, at the other your dog eat dog culture allows them to prosper, so long as they don't (directly, at least) kill anyone.
It's called having your cake and eating it.
gert83 2 years ago
Half of america thinks society = socialism, and by stringing these nobodies up you're revocating your societal responsibility for creating these serial killers.
Hardly any American I've spoken to can fathom the idea that these people might be a product of their environment - it's all the responsibility of the individual.
There's more of these creeps in the US than anywhere else, so you must be doing something wrong.
gert83 2 years ago
Actually what the US is doing right is finding them where other countries simply deal with the fact that people "disappear". No one just "disappears" inthe us. You don't have some corrupt official simply telling the family that a person "left the country" when they are just another body under their brother in law's house.
But again, this isn't about "some creep", it's about some creep with a fridge full of heads.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
Are you for real? So America's crime rate is down to the fact that you catch the crims whereas all those other developed nation police forces either don't or lie about it?
gert83 2 years ago
Yup... I'm for real. You look at the countries that are serious about law enforcement and you'll quickly see that these types of crimes are close to if not exactly the same when measured against population. So saying "probably has" won't cut it without hard numbers. If you look at the web page for the British judicial hangings you'll see a whole string of serial killers from the early 1900's.
So basically your argument carries no weight.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
I think you're deluding yourself. The US is a more violent society than other developed nations, with the possible exception of the UK, which is even more violent than the US if one excludes gun crime and murder. The UK has a very similar dog-eat dog culture - in fact we invented it and exported it to you.
gert83 2 years ago
Can't comment on swedish suicide rates, or what it may be attributable to. We're talking about US prevalence of psychopathy and associated disorders, and the evidence is it's higher in individualistic countries such as the US (and UK!) than in those with more communal cultures (e.g. far east).
gert83 2 years ago
Per ca pita, how much psychological help you think they have in India and Pakistan?
Due to your radical ideas regarding the death penalty we really have nothing further to discuss. Best of luck with your windmill joust.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
I'm sure their poverty leads to plenty of depression, most of which probably goes untreated. I doubt they have much psychopathy though.
They don't have (many) big corporations instilling them with a win at all costs grandeur delusion, you see.
Yeah, see you pal, I thought you'd be too narrow minded to draw a link between a culture espousing greed and a personality disorder characterised by greed.
gert83 2 years ago
Look the US probably does have more violent crime than other developed countries.
It also has a higher incidence of psychopathy than some other countries - about 4% (or 12 million or so, so most aren't in jail - they might be in the senate or a hedge fund).
This is not all explained by genetics. Americans are not different from other people.
gert83 2 years ago
Again, same as with your crime statistics, does that 4% actually represent an increase over other nations or does it represent a society that is good at finding them and getting them on the books so they can get some type of therapy or at least be tracked in some way.
Sweden has the highest suicide rate of any nation. If there was ever a key indicator of the hopelessness you describe it would be there yes? What's their reported rate of mental illness? 4%? Higher? Lower?
PaleHearse 2 years ago
No it's an estimate but it's based on obersvation. Other studies have shown a marked increase in narcissistic character traits in US college students since 1987.
You're bringing up a generation whose entire raison d'etre is to ruthlessly consume, what do you expect to happen?
Look at reality TV, or the apprecntice - these effectively advertise the "benefits" of being a manipulative, self aggrandising creep.
gert83 2 years ago
Psychopathy is prob. caused by complex interplay of genes (incl. epigenetics) and environment. US culture (& anglo-saxon culture in general) is macho, individualistic and brutal. I don't see why the idea that such a culture could produce high. rates of a disorder characterised by extreme selfishness, violent/ unethical behaviours and prevalent in males should be so controversial.
gert83 2 years ago
@gert83 Psychopathic tendencies, at least from what I understand, are genetic (if the environment plays a role it probably does so during pregnancy). A psychopath lacks feelings of empathy (for example) because the areas of the brain that are responsible for those emotions are defective in some way. However, it could be a genetic trait caused by evolution by natural selection, perhaps psychopathic tendencies played a role in our evolutionary past...
pillsareyummy 1 year ago
@pillsareyummy id twins fostered by diff. families at birth usually share their psychopathy despite diff. upbringing, so genetics does play some role. Environment plays a role too though - aggressive individualist cultures as found in the US or even UK produce higher incidences of psychopathy than communal cultures e.g. scandinavia or far east.
Psychopaths still exist in those communal cultures however.....
gert83 1 year ago
@gert83 One has to account for social ideologies, dogmas,etc that can effect 'behaviour'. 'Aggressive societies' may produce aggressive people, however that doesn't fall under the term psychopath. For example, 'dehumanization of the enemy', something that happens during war, wouldn't fall under the term psychopath. Many of these people can still feel empathy for others. A psychopath lacks a moral compass, because the emotional centres of the brain appear to be defective ('bad wiring').
pillsareyummy 1 year ago
@pillsareyummy There could be loads of reasons, maybe some epigenetic - the idea that the environment switches expression of certain genes on and off.
Mybe there's a psychopath lurking in all of us, just some of us are able to keep the genes switched off, others aren't. It is known t hat normally decent people will readily inflict pain on others under certain circumstances - e.g. when ordered to or authorised to by others.
gert83 1 year ago
@gert83 Again, from what I understand, the genetic component has to do with the development of the brain itself; not genes that may effect the neural circuitry of our brains after we are born (effecting neurotransmitters, enzymes, or any other process that effects the processing of data in the brain). Anyway, I'm unaware of any Mono zygotic twin studies that address this...
pillsareyummy 1 year ago
@PaleHearse
That's VERY incorrect. Sweden has NOT the highest suicide rate in the world. In fact very FAR from it. They are not even on top of the Scandinavian list, and the Scandinavian countries are not well known for the high suicide rates, because they haven't got it. The highest official rate pr. 2008 is Russia. Sweden's rate is a lower than a third of that.
Realbillball 1 year ago
Claiming these methods are "painless" or "humane" is simply an attempt by the pro capital punishment lobby to dodge the fact that their philosophy espouses violence.
It's pathetic. Some (such as Jay Chapman) have the decency to admit their indifference to the suffering of capital criminals, but not many.
gert83 2 years ago
It might sound strange but there was "execution snobbery". The yanks used the electric chair because they were cowboys, and the russians used short drop hanging because they were barely human.
Churchill did want to use the chair for Hitler, though.
Execution is supposed to be violent and brutal, and debates about which method is humane don't contribute to the real issue, which is ethical - they all have potential for botching and they probably all hurt, even lethal injection.
gert83 2 years ago
Brilliant scene..the actress playing ellis looks just like her too
FILMMAKERCHAP 2 years ago
this woman was from rhyl where im from
joedavies11 2 years ago
Why Is The Noose So Shit What Happend To The Rapping Aroung Thing?
eliotchew 2 years ago
he looks like a pig..
saruhagu 2 years ago
When Ruth Ellis was hanged, her hair was in pony tail.
I saw this movie for the first time last Spring, and there were multiple inaccuracies despite being an excellent period piece.
Mr76Yearsago 2 years ago
Pony tail;that's interesting.
I thought that accurate details of Ruth's execution were scarce.
Do you have any other details?
deivette 2 years ago
Yes, from that same source, that she was wearing a plain blue shift, but I cannot remember the book it was in
Mr76Yearsago 2 years ago
Most sources say that the prisoner was executed wearing their own clothes and this usually meant the clothes he/she was wearing at the trial. This scene shows her wearing pretty much what she wore at her trial. Google British Capital Punishment by Richard Clarke for well researched articles.
deivette 2 years ago
Perhaps Pierrepoint looked just like that. I know for sure most of the actress in this film playing the "hangees" looked nothing like the real murderesses.
Mr76Yearsago 2 years ago
This has intrigued me.
According to his book, Pierrepoint says he hanged about a "score" (20) women.
But,even if he includes Major (Bryant?) and Waddingham in "his" tally it leaves several unaccounted for. What do you think?
I did not know about Egypt, Who did he top there? What year(s)?
deivette 2 years ago
I should have said 16 females - 14 as principal plus Ethel Major and Waddingham as assistant.
I totally agree with you about Spall - about as far removed from Albert Pierrepoint as one could get.
leopard32 2 years ago
The best estimate of Albert's execution tally, including being an assistant, is 434, 417 men and 17 women. 200 of these were in Germany after the war. 8 in Austria and 3 in Egypt. Like so many other aspects of the film 600 is simply wrong as was the original title Last Hangman. It was obviously pointed out the makers that hanging continued for more than 8 years after Albert resigned.
leopard32 2 years ago
I can account for 14 females
Ellis
Styllou
Merrifield
Allen
10 Germans
Waddingham (asst)
Who else? What info?
Yes, I agree that this film was disappointing. Spall was hopelesly miscast with his silly facial gestures and physical disimilarity to Pierrepoint. The storyline was fiction.
deivette 2 years ago
I dont think most people who watched this film, would have been aware of dis-simularity in looks
between Spall and the real Pierrepoint, nor really interested.
To say the story line was fiction, is implying
this never happened?
-some say Spall deserved an Oscar,
and I would agree, as he commanded my attention (demanded it) for the whole film,
-they call it "screen tension"
darkmossie633 2 years ago
Pierrepoint worked in the shadows so most people had no idea what he looked like anyway.
SPAG22 2 years ago
The additional hangings may.. and I do say may because I have little supporting evidence, have been carried out in Scotland and Ireland. There was some speculation at the time that the additional hangings that Albert claimed at the time were many where the hangman was not named. It would stand to reason that if you were in Ireland or Scotland and had a hanging to do that one might call on Albert to do them quietly and with no recognition. Hard to say. Did Albert every publish his logbook?
PaleHearse 2 years ago
Pale Hearse, the figure I gave includes hangings in Ireland and Scotland. Albert took over from his uncle Tom in the Irish Republic and carried out all the executions there.
leopard32 2 years ago
Yes.. I have probably seen the same list you have. What I was wondering is if there were any hangings done where the name of the hangman was not recorded. It's totally plausible that Albert himself puffed up the numbers. Human nature that. Just wondering if his 600 figure could be supported by his log.
PaleHearse 2 years ago
She carried the can for other people and a basically corrupt Conservative Government as she was linked with too many society people .
It later came out in the likes of the Profumo Scandal .
That sentence should have been commuted but sadly it was of the time .
squeakyadam 2 years ago
If he didnt do it someone else would have. He did try to make it quick and pain free.
Throbbinggrisle 2 years ago
but couldn't one use that same argument for the nazi death squads?
itkapatanka 2 years ago
Well one could but I would say that the condemned has been tried by a jury and has a defence lawyer. Whereas the Nazi death squads just slaughtered innocent people without trial or defense
Throbbinggrisle 2 years ago
Albert Pierrpoint hanged Irma Grese, Juana Bormann and Elisabeth Volkenrath, three of the SS guards... All three women were tried at the Belsen Trial and found guilty.
katchoo2 2 years ago
When Britain was fighting the Nazis, they gave a choice to the German spys they caught-come work for them- or be hung,NOW,seems fair to me.
sr633 2 years ago
Albert Pierrepoint also hung 'wrong-doing' Americans too!
loveroftruth7 2 years ago