"Be a Happy, Clappy Christian!"...? (WHI) [1of4]

[Strefanasha]

what are the TWIN errors of carnal mindedness?

happy clappy vacuousness or legalistic misery: and the church lurches like a drunkard rom one to the other.

each error is as bad as the other. so i dont wase my time seeking the truth from a church.

they were VICIOUS towards my depression and sorrow, si I seek God and not the church.

and NO they do not want to hear about God's holiness or sin.

but previously when the church focussed on these they were bogus as well

[Patternpop]

I haven't been to church in perhaps 3 months probably more,

Prosperity Gospel has caused people to believe everything that is happening to me came from sin.

Therefore I must confess "whatever I did" to the elders.

This has happened to me in dozens of "churches" in San Diego.

[BenAliGtor]

The real danger is that superficial worship ("Happy Clappy Worship") reflects superficial theology and superficial ethics. Is it any wonder that such people become unwitting tools for unscrupulous occupational religionists who exploit them for the end of Right Wing politics?

[nanking37]

LANE! I was coming to give you a message about this VERY issue, and low and behold the video I see is about what I was going to bring to your attention. Amazing! A guy told me to "smile" as advice to my 1 cor 1:18 video. I am thinking how can I smile when men are perishing and when men consider the cross of Jesus foolishness.

[LaneCh]

It has to be providence. :)

(Remember that this is four videos, too, if you aren't aware of it already. Also, do you ever go in James White's chatroom?)

[nanking37]

I tried to go into his chat room, but either I went at the wrong time or something, no one was in there.

[LaneCh]

You must have gone in about 3am. :) It's usually pretty busy. I'm actually in there listening to the DL live with everyone else. There's...

There you are!

[Patternpop]

@nanking37 chat room ??

Where...?

[Patternpop]

@LaneCh

This video: I hear Christian voices and I can listen for hours.

[savdbygrce]

The Church in America I think have forgotten what Jesus did to bring us this Joy. We have forgotten about our sin that put Jesus on that Cross. We want to focus on the glorification of Man rather than the Glory of God. God died for us and we have joy yes but "not as the prime product but as a byproduct". (Paris Reidhead)

[tommymech]

Yes Jesus died for our sins that's why the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin (not condemn us for it though - big difference) which produces a Godly sorrow leading to repentance (that wonderful liberating cleansing gift from God) unto salvation. One should not focus on sin dealt with by true repentance since in God's eyes its gone. What it cost God to send his Son to the Cross we can barely guess at. Thinking on it is both sobering and joy producing (we know what it achieved).

[LaneCh]

"One should not focus on sin dealt with by true repentance since in God's eyes its gone."

Well, see, that's the difference between your subjective opinion and the apostle of God:

Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

(James 4:9)

I'll stick with God.

[Strefanasha]

@LaneCh yes Lane. i see you have swallowed the opposite error to that of the happy clappy.

how much misery shall you p[ut yourself through? enough to satisfy your pride, or enough to get the job done.

Misery has been my allotment for 30 years, and though i reject happy clappy I am to ad to misery because you say so?

it is almost ALWAYS the case that the opponent of an error is in error himself.

that is why i do not waste mytime seeking any of these preachers

[tommymech]

Let me be clear and say that I am no fan of Hinn, Copeland, Myer, Haggan, Oesten et al or any of those TV phoney's. But don't assume that all 'happy clappy' is wrong either. Its the Holy Spirit that brings conviction of sin which is a relief to those who listen because it produces a Godly sorrow which leads to repentance (a most wonderful releasing gift from God!) unto salvation. And most importantly, don't confuse conviction of sin with condemnation that leads to guilt, despair and death.

[LaneCh]

If you notice in the video, they nor I have any problem with joy. The problem is that "happy, clappy" is a contrived feeling that one can get either at a "worship" service or a football game. It's not joy.

[tommymech]

When I see 'my' football team win, I experience joy and I often express my joy with shouts of delight. When I experience joy when worshiping the Lord it also makes me want to shout out in sheer delight at the love he pours out on me. None of the 'joys' described are contrived as they are invariably spontaneous. When my wife accepted my proposal of marriage I jumped with joy. Joy does this. Don't put all 'happy clappies'in the same boat as the TV phoneys.

[LaneCh]

If you receive the same joy from believing in the Only Son of God who came down to shed his blood for the sins of everyone who believes as you do seeing a person run a run a certain distance with an object in his hand, I assume that what you are experiencing is not real joy. It may make you happy and clappy, but that isn't the joy which caused Paul to suffer all for the sake of God's elect.

[tommymech]

I made a distinction in my responding post to bberchin (my 1st post below) that God derived joy is higher than mere natural human joy but that both often have an outward observable expression. Our Creator made us so that we can experience joy. What do you think joy is - don't tell me what you think it isn't?

[LaneCh]

joy:

The greek word is chara.

It means calm delight, cheerfulness, gladness. (Strong's)

Even though you requested not to say what it isn't, it's obvious why because this definition excludes "happy, clappiness."

[tommymech]

I agree that joy can be calm and contemplative but gladness of heart can also be very expressive - no? Another very common meaning of chara is - delight. If I delight in something or someone I am lifted up and can be exuberant. *Sigh* would it help you if I use the word rejoice instead of joy? Has the Lord never made you so happy that you've rejoiced and jumped for joy?

[LaneCh]

You're still missing the point. We are not claiming that you shouldn't "rejoice always in the Lord." What we are saying is that the happy, clappy mentality isn't rejoicing. Happy, clappiness is contrived and is generated by a certain feeling (which you, yourself have affirmed in your analogy with your favorite football team and Jesus).

[LaneCh]

When I think of Christ, I don't think of the Lord God as I would a football team. Maybe it's just me or maybe it's just realizing what He's actually done which has nothing to do with end zone dances.

[LaneCh]

I looked at your profile and noticed that you're in France so you may not understand what exactly we are referring to here in the states. The current state of "evangelicalism" has been reduced down to fodder because of the non-chalant, non-convicting "messages of Christ" coming from the plexiglass pulpits here. It could be that we are agreeing, but are mistaken on what exactly we are saying because of our perspectives.

[LaneCh]

What exactly is the state of "evangelicalism" there where you are? Is it much expository preaching or mostly topical "how to raise positive kids in a negative world" type of "preaching"?

[tommymech]

France is spiritually pretty dark. Most associate Christianity with R Catholicism but its a very secular country. There are evangelical and pentecostal churches but they are relativey few and small. The one I go to teaches from the Bible and the pastor has a real love for the Lord. I don't know if 'topical' preaching is here in France it probably is. Don't go the opposite as a reaction to those phoneys on the God TV - that could be just as bad.

[tommymech]

I don't think of anything to do with Christianity in the same way as I think of a football team. It was an analogy. The little I have seen of the Hinns, Copelands, Myers etc that have hijacked your airwaves makes me both sad and angry. God must bring us to face our sin and to repentance (one of the Holy Spirit's activities). Just because some people act like idiots doesn't mean that every exuberant expression of worship is wrong. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

[LaneCh]

I understand better where you are coming from here. Here, the Baby Jesus (and Lord Jesus) has been thrown out with the watered-down Gospel to a large part of professing Christendom in the states. The happy, clappy, non-convicting, Christless Christianity that is now permeating the land is the direct result.

[LaneCh]

Perhaps we do mean the same things, but are missing each other in the cross. For example, I really enjoy singing hymns to music with friends. That is an expression of joy. What is not is some of the antics that are taking place here in the name "expressions of joy in Christ." I think we may be speaking of a similar distaste, but missing each other on the points.

[tommymech]

It could be but to me people clapping, raising their arms/hands to God in worship, shouting out praise in joy is all part of normal worship alongside hymns and prayer - but not always like that, sometimes meetings are very quiet and contemplative or a mix (there should be no fixed format). Its not at all what I have seen on the 'God TV' shows though - I can't really explain it in words its just so different.

[tommymech]

John 15:11 - Have any of you read this? If you are in the Vine isn't worshiping Jesus and walking with Him a joyous thing to you? Doesn't it make you, at least sometimes, want to jump for joy in your meetings, shout out loud in sheer delight at what He has done? Interesting that despite all their problems the Corinth Church is actually praised on many counts by Paul. Contrast that with the Church in Galatia who outwardly seemed to have everything right but in fact was as dead as a doornail.

[bberchin]

Be careful not to define joy by outward signs and actions. The joy we have as Christians is neither experiential nor is it outward. Any joy, or emotion, is derived from truth and the reality of who God is. Tears and laughter should come from truth, not experience and outward stimuli.

[tommymech]

If you don't experience joy how do you know you have joy? True God derived joy must surpass ordinary human joy obtained from, say, seeing your football team win. If the lesser can produce observable outward form then should not the greater more so? Check out the word joy in your concordance and read the related scriptures - no outward signs or actions??

[LaneCh]

You're missing the point entirely.

[tommymech]

How exactly? If Jesus has done real wonderous things in your life and saved you from your sins how can you not at times want to jump and dance and shout and clap in sheer adoration of the Son of the Almighty? What Jesus did on the cross is awesome and he did it for you and me - doesn't that at least make you happy? Do you think that the joy Paul experienced was some nebulous concept in his head?

[LaneCh]

"If Jesus has done real wonderous things in your life and saved you from your sins how can you not at times want to jump and dance and shout and clap in sheer adoration of the Son of the Almighty?"

If you can read what Jesus actually causes you to jump around and dance and doesn't produce humility and somberness, I don't believe you've actually read what he's said, and if you have, I don't believe that you believe it.

[tommymech]

I must confess that I've never actually danced in a meeting. I don't jump around either. Is jumping around and dancing in the definition of happy clappy? I hope that the Lord has worked some humility into my life (I know there is much to do still) but somberness I pray he removes from me (my English dictionary says sombre means dismal or gloomy - did you really mean that?). I have and do read the Word daily and I believe it. Do you think that Jesus was miserable his whole time on this Earth?

[LaneCh]

I actually meant to say "soberness" but the word "somber" can still be used as James speaks in the verse I shared with you earlier. Mark Kielar constantly preaches that you can't hold onto one and deny the other. In other words, one cannot appreciate God's grace without accepting that God is going to have wrath, as well. I don't believe you can truly have joy without "letting you laughter be turned to mourning, etc." (James 4:9)

[LaneCh]

"Do you think that Jesus was miserable his whole time on earth?"

I take it you define "miserable" as meaning "sorrowful". In this sense, yes. I believe he was a man of many sorrows. The prophet Isaiah agrees:

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. - Isaiah 53:3.

[tommymech]

Being sorrowful and being miserable are very different things. Jesus knew sorrow and grief at a level we will never fully comprehend but he never lost his joy because he always kept the Father's commandments (the secret to obtaining joy). If he had no joy he could not have said to the disciples in John 15:11 "...that my joy may remain in you and that your joy may be full".

[LaneCh]

What it comes down to is this:

How can a person be joyous about their sins being forgiven if they've never sorrowed over having them in the first place?

[tommymech]

As I think I alluded to in several of my earlier posts, you will not receive the gift of repentance unless you have been convicted of sin and experienced a Godly sorrow (its not conviction of sins but of sin because human nature was so terribly corrupted by the fall that it goes deeper than merely committing sins). A Godly sorrow leads to repentance (a cleansing healing gift) unto salvation. Salvation includes the knowledge that your sins are forgiven (it must) which should make you charis.

[LaneCh]

If you are having the joy you speak of from where you speak of because of what you speak of, then we are talking about the same things but using different terms. If you've repented of your sins, believe on Christ, and that joy causes you to do cart-wheels, I'm certainly not against it. As I said, the big issue we're having here is the contrived "joy" which isn't really joy at all is being promoted largely so no godly sorrow ever gets a chance to be cultivated.

[tommymech]

I'm against anything contrived and anything which teaches that we don't have to face (or avoids facing) what we naturally are i.e. sin. This why Jesus came so that our very nature could be changed. We must avoid bringing condemnation into people's lives though. Its the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin (though he often uses men in the process). As far as I can see, Jesus only ever strongly critised the pharisees and wicked leaders of his day.

[tommymech]

So are you saying that what you term 'happy clappy' revolves around the TV phoneys? The shreiking and falling to the floor and all the other nonsense? It does not also refer to those who express genuine joy and adoration of Jesus sometimes noisily? Those churches whose pastors asking for your money saying that God will make you rich if you give them your money and doing crazy things on the stage do much harm - a sort of reverse Richard Hood who does tricks.

[LaneCh]

Well, those are partly the ones, but I'm talking more about the ones that use AC/DC for a service or something like that. For example, if you go to my profile and look at the video I've posted about halfway down the page, this is actually a place I've attended. It will give you a better understanding as to what I'm talking about.

[tommymech]

There are places claiming to be Christian churches using AC/DC's music in their services?? This is for real? I will look at the video you mention.

[LaneCh]

Yes! This is what I'm referring to. I thought we may be on the same page, but using different terms... I'll send you some links regarding what I'm talking about, Lord willing.

[tommymech]

I looked at the video. There isn't much of the actual church service but what is shown is not encouraging at all. Hmm. Worrying. Are those places common in the USA?

[LaneCh]

It is becoming common because of the growing liberalism. There are certain movements that are also driving this like the "Purpose Driven", the non-seeker-sensitive movement, and the emerging group of people.

[tommymech]

It has been illuminating having this discussion with you. I will look at the videos you e-mail me. I may look at some of your other videos - you are obviously a strong believer in Calvinism.

Regards

[LaneCh]

It has been for me, too. Take care.

[tommymech]

I have heard 'happy clappy' used in England (obviously not used by the French). The way the English use it may be broader than how you use it. I think many charismatics would be classed HC in England whilst having sound teaching. However, if the HC phrase's use in the USA is narrower then it would be good to know as I have contact with Americans and don't want to describe myself as agreeing with anything reprehensible.

[LaneCh]

Yes. Again, I think we may have the same definitions, but using different terms. I may send you a couple links as to what I'm talking about if I can find them.

[ProclaimHisWord]

Maybe we should exchange Amazing Grace with "Don't worry,be happy!"

[2corinthians710]

LOL!

[Oct31st1517]

"Todays Gospel is man, emotional, entertainmet centered, rather than bible, God centered." Dr. Ferrel Grizwald. Just thought I would share this quote.

[LaneCh]

Great quote. I understand more and more why James White and Sproul don't consider themselves evangelicals when I see things like this.