In all this game, the devil is losing and at the end will be accused of everything because GOD don’t want any rivals. Conclusion: live at the full in the freedom of GOD (praying in a right form, following the INSTRUCTIONS in the Bible - keeping the 10 commandments - including keeping the Saturday as the 7th day etc.) instead of in the incapacity and limited power of devil because he is just a temporary puppet. Jesus Christ is the savior and hope.
graysmith, what a hack. his book and his conclusions are shit.
the business of the radian angle isn't even mentioned in the movie. zodiac writes "it concerns radians and inches along the radian".
a straight line can be drawn across all of the north bay murder sites to mount diablo, the highest point of land in the bay area. if you then draw another line from mount diablo to the site of the cabbie murder in s.f. it forms a radian angle.
Allen is still the best suspect, regardless of DNA evidence. He himself said that the glue on envelopes make him sick. Handwriting is something completely different. Whomever Zodiac really is..he used several people's handwriting and traced them on a light-table.
@3333sweetie I learned about him, it's very interesting and he has a resemblance to the sketch, I would be careful naming him unless you want a law suit coming your way.
The cops really didnt wanna catch this guy, i wonder why? Also, the 2 cops saw 1 person walking seconds after the cab driver was killed, one of them couldve gotten out of the car to pat him down, need i say more
of all the things ive heard about arther L allen the one thing that comes to mind is a patsy, no perfect patsy ( has zodiac watch, talks about killing ? , loner criminal ) I think he had a friend in one of his many sports known only to him , who figured he could put it on allen at the 3rd murder seen two girls stated they saw a skin diver near the island that day whats the 1st thing to know in scuba - skin diving ? go with a friend ,
About the DNA...The Zodiac have eluded the police this far so do anyone really think that he would have been that stupid to put his own dna on the stamp? ofcourse other people have been in contact with the stamp while the zodiac was most likely using gloves and did everything he could to not leave any clues from himself. The same about the prints...SO many ppl have been in contact with the letters so its very likely its been contaminated! Not likely by Zodiac.
At the time, though, DNA wasn't something that was as advanced as it is now. I don't think the Zodiac would have even thought that his seliva could have linked him? Either way, whoever's DNA was tested from the letter, wasn't Allens?
Oh I know. But if I were a criminal I wouldnt take any chanses. I would try not to leave any evidence from myself because you never know what the future holds. And I don´t think the Zodiac was any less aware...But that´s just my opinion ;)
"At the time, though, DNA wasn't something that was as advanced as it is now ... Either way, whoever's DNA was tested from the letter, wasn't Allens?"
#1. Why the fuck do you put a question-mark at the end of every sentence? God that's annoying.
#2. There were many people who made contact with that letter and the DNA taken from it was simply assumed to be that of The Zodiac. There was no real reason that this had to be the case.
@1977jenna I 90 PERCENT AGREE WITH U BESIDE THE FACT THEY DIDNT HAVE DNA TESTING BACK THEN AND ALA WUDNT HAVE BEEN THINKNG THAT HE COULD GET CONVICTED BY LICKING A STAMP
I seriously doubt it was Arthur Lee Allen. Even the eye witness descriptions paint a way different picture than Allens appearance. Yes Mike mageau picked out ALA'asface from a mug shot after the shooting/ But, he was in the process of being muredered!! Violently shot!! Even if he never really lost conciousness, I doubt he was able to see the man's face. By all accounts it was pitch black out there!!
I doubt it too but I don´t know if it´s because in some twisted way I still want this to be an unsolved mystery? Weird but I don´t think I´m alone.
Robert Graysmiths books about it are still the best I´ve ever read, I completely love them!!
...and there´s still much about Arthus Leigh Allen that is weird...all the things he´s said, the watch, his posessions, he was at the crimescenes at the time, same shoesize, the knife etc. What did he say about this?
It was ALA. They pull some fingerprints off a taxi? How many fingerprints you expect to find on a taxi?
The DNA test was completely and utterly based on the assumption that it was the Zodiac's DNA they were testing. It could've been anyones who had come into contact with the letter, or someone else attached them.
Handwriting? What a joke. The guy's a cryptographer ffs. A cryptographer isn't going to come up with an alphabet that looks nothing like his handwriting?
These people gave the composite sketch. That sketch would've immediately superimposed itself over any vague image they had in their heads from that night. The SKETCH is the face that would've appeared over and over in their minds, in their dreams.
Even if that one murder was not committed by ALA, the evidence against him that he committed the others is extraordinary. Everything, and I mean everything, points to him.
I'm not certain on this, but, I beleive the person described leaving the Stein murder site was also encountered by SFPD . I don't recall any reports of them fingering Allen ALA was on the radar of the police for a long time. But they were never able to really connect him with any of the murders. Although he had a high IQ, he made stupid mistakes and commited crimes of which he was always caught. The man who was Zodiac, was much too careful.
The cops, one in particular, caught a glimpse of a white male walking away from the scene, and dismissed it because it had been mistakenly reported to have been a 'black male' offender.
It would seem that the Stein murder was done by other than ALA, but I believe he took credit for it.
"never able to really connect him with any of the murders."
Every piece of circumstantial evidence pointed to ALA. Locations, times, phrases used, friends/family accounts, shoeprints, knowledge of bombs etc etc
Oh, I admit that he makes the best suspect that they ever interviewed! But, With all these supposed eye witnesses, and physical evidence, I would think that, if they had the right man, they would have been able to prosecute him!!
One thing to remember is that they also had at least one eyewitness that picked out ALA.
The main reason the police never charged him was the handwriting not matching, but as I've said ... a cryptographer not changing the alphabet he uses would be like a fingerprint analyst not wearing gloves when he commits a crime. It was just terrible judgement and a absolute reliance on 'science' without considering (what I considered) the obvious flaws in logic.
I had to read awhile before someone thought what i did. Throw the handwriting completely out (most stupidest evidence) The man that got shot and almost died from the killer... picked ALA said, "Thats the man that shot me" That should be talked about more, the woman that got picked up by him? Where are these people? R they not creditable? Me personaly could watch the interviews of ALA and know his voice his breathing habits and his eyes if i was around him for awhile when my life was in jepardy
@foxyfonzie the only problem was that they did not have enough to even arrest him, yes that man that said "i'll never forget that face" we dont know a lot of his mental stability. and we're not told everything... i think that it was a lot more complicated than that
"I would think that, if they had the right man, they would have been able to prosecute him!! "
Most of the police actually believed that it wasn't ALA after the handwriting tests. If they had've matched they would've arrested and charged him. This was the only thing that kept him out of prison.
The most likely explanation is that there was another wack-job that did a couple of things around the same time, and the Zodiac just decided to take credit for them.
robert graysmith seems like a really sincere guy,, but ALA no way hes the zodiac,, the zodiac is still alive and well living in SF,,,, he will send us his final letter when he dies,, he just needs everyone to know it was him,,,Joe80dman,,is the closest one in here with the right idea
Sometimes I think the cops knew, and have known all along, the identity of Zodiac, but would embarrass an influential person, or organization, if the truth were revealed.
i doubt it, zodiac is just a modern jack the ripper case along with a hand full of other serial killers slipping threw the cracks of justice with knowledge and a little luck on there sides.
if you are saying it was political, what would be the motive, and why take out a couple of civilians out at a time, use a bomb to target federal buildings, and then you could have said it was a terrorist cover up or something to that nature, na i disagree with you there by the way of logical thinking
Well, I never thought the killings were political. I was thinking he might have been a prominent person's son, or nephew, or even someone in law enforcement. He may have been a homicidal maniac. A guy who just couldn't resist the thought of the next kill. Anyway, maybe it was decided to just cover-up his dirty deeds, and rush him off to a sanctuary somewhere. Just a theory.
yea i mean could be, but usually homicidal maniacs are out of control and get caught for mistakes eventually, but his final words were "i am in control now"
personally i think he was smarter than everybody else, possibly military background as it states in the movie because of his boots, could he had inside help sure, but that normally that only happens never, can't think of anybody getting away with that one, you? guess that is a dumb question, if you would know they wouln't have got away...
I felt somewhat as you until I gave one important fact a little deeper thought. I find it very odd that the two cops merely allowed him to "walk by" after the Stein (taxi) murder. Doesn't this strike you as rather obvious. WHY would these cops, after responding to a call about a homicide that had just occurred, allow the Zodiac to walk away near the scene of the crime?!? The allege that the call mentioned something about the perp as being black, but there's nothing to substantiate this.
it did raise a flag, but that could have been just hollywood doing there thing, plus i am not to sure how bright these cops were, and the racial profile movement was current at the time right?
probably just some old lady needing a new set of glasses
either way it is mysterious, but like i said before, he had a little bit of luck, the rest was skill like military trained
Saw the movie,read the book,among other things,I know someone who still is investigating it even today,most of the things from the movie is true,including that moment at the end,its not a typical movie where Hollywood makes up a bunch of crap,its all based on Roberts book and he doesn't lie.
well that again is Roberts' opinion to make money, i too have studied many things on the zodiac and lets just say we see eye to eye from a psychological stand point...and arthur lee allen is not the profile match didn't you see the movie dna evidence no match, profile no match the lead detective says he is not the one :)
I don't realize at all how much of another persons DNA could be collected on a postage stamp in a secured evidence storage facility at a police station! Please explain that one. I'm sorry to have resorted to common sense , but one can only guess that the person who licked the stamp on the letter sent by the Zodiac, was..well, probably the Zodiac! Unless he had an accomplice? A mystery tongue of sorts?
"I don't realize at all how much of another persons DNA could be collected on a postage stamp in a secured evidence storage facility at a police station!"
Correct.
The DNA test included the entire section of stamp. That means evidence from under the stamp as well as the top of the stamp.
The DNA could've come from anyone.
You seem to forget that the letter did not originate in a storage facility. It went through many people's hands to get to it's destination.
But as soon as the letters were received, the SFPD treated them pretty carefully. DNA was not a concern at the time,but fingerprints were. I seriously doubt that the person who licked the stamp had his DNA altered through casual handling of the letters in the police dept? Don't get me wrong, I think it's a real possibility that ALA could have been the one. But, then again there's too much that can clear his name as well?
"But as soon as the letters were received, the SFPD treated them pretty carefully. "
DNA could've come from debris in the mailbox, the other letters inside the mailbox, the postman who picked the mail up, his mail bags, the postman who delivered it, the people or objects at the store where the stamp was originally sold etc. They couldn't even claim that the DNA came from the person who licked that stamp.
DNA travels. It was not definitive in this case by any means, and most reports admit that.
DNA is a pretty good way to identify someone. I don't believe that it is so hap-hazardly spread around like you suggest. That theory worked for Johhny Cochran, at OJ's trial, but then again, O.J.'s jury was very easily persuaded! In other words, most people considered them idiots!! It's like saying, "Yeah, this rape victim has my clients DNA collected from her , but isn't it possible that his DNA was transferred from a handshake"?? Come on, again , let's use common sense?
"I don't believe that it is so hap-hazardly spread around like you suggest."
This is completely different from, say, a paternity test, or a rape victim test. Not even in the same stratosphere biologically. Your comparison of the two shows your understanding of the processes involved in DNA testing is next to zero.
The only way I would've had to have admitted at least two killers acting in unison (or even perhaps ruled ALA out) is if they could match the blood from the DNA on the pieces of shirt Zodiac sent in letters from the Stein murder .. to Stein.
I believe he probably just took credit for that one, when he didn't actually do it.
One of the more damning pieces of evidence for me was ALA's taped interview. If ever I've seen a guilty man putting on a pre-prepared act, that's it.
Honestly I think there were two freaks getting around at the time, and Zodiac was taking credit for things that he did do and the things he didn't do.
Zodiac had even said things to the effect that he would do this, and they wouldn't know which things he really was responsible for.
That's why they never got him. They were looking for two different people and expecting all the evidence to fit just one.
Every cop and every Zodiac expert agrees that only one man was responsible for Faraday-Jensen, Ferrin-Mageau,Sheppard-Hartnell, and Paul Stein. Zodiac was able to give detailed info on each killing. He was not able to positively link himself to any others. They never got him because he was not a sloppy person, like ALA was. I doubt they ever even identified him by name, let alone, interviewed him.
Refute any point I've made and I'll be glad to review it, but my points on the DNA, the handwriting and the fingerprints are all strong enough to be upheld in a court of law.
Your points that "everyone believed it" .. just wouldn't.
The DNA did not necessarily come from the person who licked the stamps (as a side-note, ALA did have another licking tongue for his stamps, that of Don Cheney, who claimed to have done just that)
Really? I've read a lot about this case, and seen lots of docs! But I have never heard Chaney claim that one? Well, there you have it. Can they get a hold of his DNA? Case solved!!- "Hey Don, be a sport and lick these stamps for me! I have to rush a letter to the SF Chronicle editor!! SHH!! Keep it on the down low!!" HA!!
No. the so called ''painting party'' could of possibly not even existed. Dean Ferrin, her husband of the time, said there was never a party like that.
No. Some of the myths were factoids invented by Robert Greysmith to sell his books years ago. Some of it came from testimony of witnesses that have been utterly discredited.
There is more evidence to exonerate Allen than what has exonerated many convicted killers. Greysmith has done a lot to keep the case against ALA going...and to sell his books.
I agree,. SF was just becoming settled as a gay community. He killed people in the bay area, and hated women. Im sure it was a transient to the gay community, not necessarily gay, who's probably dead or dehabilitated by age or HIV.
Andrew Walker the Vacaville stalker. He was unemployed during the Z known murders. Walker had training in cryptology and teached it while in the military. His description fits the sketch of Mageau and Ferrin's assailant at BRS; this was provided by Lt. John Husted who interviewed Linda Del Buono for a description.
He died as a result of a vehicular collison in 1976. When Sonoma Sheriffs Office learned about the drawings from his wife,they seized unknown items and kept it for months,but returned it back to the next of kin. Could it be Z related material that could of kept out any public knowledge after soo many years?
Also,there is Fred Manalli,the Santa Rosa JC teacher,who should be looked as a suspect. He may of written the Z letters; his fingerprint is somewhere in Sacramento. Manalli is the teacher in Santa Rosa that Graysmith wrote about regarding a suspicious person involved in the Santa Rosa hitchhiking murders. This man too was a ex-military man,taller than 6 feet. Not too much is given about him because Graysmith was only given limited info about the teacher.
Missing/absence of TJK whereabouts during the first Z killing in Dec 1968. A month later in early 1969,if I'm correct,TJK resigned his position as a mathemetican professor at Berkely U without a clear reason.
One of Z letter the author used FC,so did TJK in a written letter.
Z had knowledge of weapons/explosives; TJK also knew how to hunt and bomb making.
TJK in his 1967 photo...put it side to side with the admended drawing of Paul Stine's murder,you can compare it to a near perfect "T"
TJK analysis of his writing compares to certain words,adjectives to Z.
The only problem is that TJK was thin build,Z was described as a stocky heavyset man. TJK first start serial bombing in his 30's; Z during that time was somewhere in his late 30's or early 40's.
Theodore J. Kacynski has this trait that fits a better profile than Allen.
Z detested various groups of society; TJK despised also groups of civilization including anyone connected with technology. Z seemed to respect wildlife(huh?);TJK respected the environment.
Both held grudges.
Allen also held grudges,but his profile leaned toward sexual deviancy,sexual torture. Sex wasn't common in any adjective found in any Z letter.
Ever look at the crime scene photo of Paul Stines murder..he's missing his glasses. Zodiac must of took it along with Stine's wallet and keys. That's what I thought of it.
There is no doubt that Robert Graysmith uncovered a lot of useful information in the course of his near obsessive research for the book. Kudos to him for that.
His conceit, however, is that he felt he had to "solve" it himself.
Subsequent DNA tests revealed that Arthur Leigh Allen's DNA did NOT match the known DNA samples recovered from the ZODIAC letters and that his handwriting did not match the writing on those same letters.
Those old letters were touched and handled decades ago by a hundred different people. No wonder they didn't match Allens' DNA. That does NOT prove his innocence.
No it doesn't. But the number of things that don't match makes it hard for me to take him seriously as a suspect.
No - fingerprint match (from Stine's cab)
No - DNA match (from saliva on the stamp)
No - handwriting match
I'll keep an open mind and say I won't exclude him 100% as a suspect, but if this mystery is ever solved there has to be SOME tangible evidence like DNA or fingerprints to tie the suspect to the crimes. All the rest is speculation.
I agree with MerryPup. What about the glasses? Did Lee Allen wear glasses? Plus, he didn't really have a buzz cut. He was balding. Zodiac had either a buzz cut or curly hair by some testimonies. The lady who heard his voice said Allen's was not the same. THEODore kACZynskI is really worth looking into.
Yes the letters were tested for Leighs dna, but it came up as not his. BUT, Leigh never licked stamps or glue on envelopes, he said it made him sick. I just want the people who were in on it, to give up the story before they die. all matter exists forever, there fore somewhere lies a .22 jc higgins model 80 that killed david and betty, even if its melted to nothing or in a stream or lake, its still out there
There is evidence on who the Zodiac is! If you watch the new movie and read his book who will know who it is! But the case is still open in Napa and Vallijo.
Graysmith put a lot of bullshit into his book. You must let the evidence drive the suspect not the other way around, this is the major flaw in the case. Main reason why we never solved this case.
Graysmith is the reason why we know leigh had scratches on his face The day after the riverside slaying, he is also the reason why we know leigh was in the same spot of high way 101 when the santa barbara murder occured, Just a question, what did graysmith put in the book that was bullshit?
what it boils down to is...in spite of the non matching to anything biological evidence to Arthur Leigh Allen,that the law enforcement agencies involved could never rule him out as a suspect. Kacynski was never ruled out as a suspect.
The Zodiac was either a Police Officer or had some sort of Military training..he had an amazing shot with a handgun and used police tactics to pull up behind victims cars (on an angle so they can't drive away) or shining the flashlight directly in the eyes..Has anyone seen the movie Mr.Brooks?
get a DNA test sample of the letter that has the fingerprint mark, and compare it to Ed Kaczinsky, the Unibomber. There just very well might be a match.
They never caught Zodiac. According to the Encyclopedia of Serial Killers they have cleared the top 5 suspects including Arthur Leigh Allen using DNA evidence.
took 'em long enough to start investigating again about Zodiac
it's like they're all waiting for a movie to come out so they can go "oh,another one about that creep.we should better find the fills and start over" *roll eyes*
This has been flagged as spam show
In all this game, the devil is losing and at the end will be accused of everything because GOD don’t want any rivals. Conclusion: live at the full in the freedom of GOD (praying in a right form, following the INSTRUCTIONS in the Bible - keeping the 10 commandments - including keeping the Saturday as the 7th day etc.) instead of in the incapacity and limited power of devil because he is just a temporary puppet. Jesus Christ is the savior and hope.
diptdipt 1 month ago
LOL @ LAWSUIT
oldermuscleguy 1 month ago
The hurdy gurdy man is the Zodiac.
MrCoal11 7 months ago
Comment removed
blotchy67 7 months ago
nice commercial ABC.
graysmith, what a hack. his book and his conclusions are shit.
the business of the radian angle isn't even mentioned in the movie. zodiac writes "it concerns radians and inches along the radian".
a straight line can be drawn across all of the north bay murder sites to mount diablo, the highest point of land in the bay area. if you then draw another line from mount diablo to the site of the cabbie murder in s.f. it forms a radian angle.
THAT'S WHY HE CHOSE A CAB DRIVER.
LiquorWreckedEmGood 7 months ago
Allen is still the best suspect, regardless of DNA evidence. He himself said that the glue on envelopes make him sick. Handwriting is something completely different. Whomever Zodiac really is..he used several people's handwriting and traced them on a light-table.
DickLodge68 9 months ago
well if your so sure its allen, then dig the mother fuckers grave up! hhaha
jordyndugger23 11 months ago
He's still out there, no doubt.
MrFerdell 11 months ago
lol "follows facts" the film is so full of inaccurate Graysmith nonsense.
TaNgEnTsHigh 1 year ago
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see this right here a v atz.net remove spaces
sungandras 1 year ago
william grant is 100 per cent the zodiac and the cops know this.
jimpurdie 1 year ago
lee allen is not the zodiac.if allen was the zodiac the police now that.graysmith is bullshit
jhonnies123 1 year ago
Comment removed
3333sweetie 1 year ago
@3333sweetie I learned about him, it's very interesting and he has a resemblance to the sketch, I would be careful naming him unless you want a law suit coming your way.
burglife 2 months ago
@burglife thanks.
3333sweetie 2 months ago
Comment removed
3333sweetie 1 year ago
The cops really didnt wanna catch this guy, i wonder why? Also, the 2 cops saw 1 person walking seconds after the cab driver was killed, one of them couldve gotten out of the car to pat him down, need i say more
ENAIZHA 1 year ago
@ENAIZHA THE DESRIPTION WAS FOR A BLACK GUY THATS Y THEY LET HIM GO W/OUT THINKING ABOUT IT
SuperBceltics 1 year ago
It would be sick if Graysmith was Zodiac.
PhillyLucky7 1 year ago 2
@PhillyLucky7 haha i was thinking about that
BFbay123 1 year ago
of all the things ive heard about arther L allen the one thing that comes to mind is a patsy, no perfect patsy ( has zodiac watch, talks about killing ? , loner criminal ) I think he had a friend in one of his many sports known only to him , who figured he could put it on allen at the 3rd murder seen two girls stated they saw a skin diver near the island that day whats the 1st thing to know in scuba - skin diving ? go with a friend ,
GolfgreenThe 1 year ago
Graysmith is an idiot. Allen was not Zodiac.
Mankind081 1 year ago
Those thing ALA did it are very dumb.
gertomaniac 2 years ago
If the stamp he did not lick, you cannot convict. (With apologies to Johnnie Cochran)
CTHULHUSURVIVOR 2 years ago
..and this is beside the point...but the Jake is so handsome :-) He did a great job as Robert! <3
1977jenna 2 years ago
About the DNA...The Zodiac have eluded the police this far so do anyone really think that he would have been that stupid to put his own dna on the stamp? ofcourse other people have been in contact with the stamp while the zodiac was most likely using gloves and did everything he could to not leave any clues from himself. The same about the prints...SO many ppl have been in contact with the letters so its very likely its been contaminated! Not likely by Zodiac.
1977jenna 2 years ago
At the time, though, DNA wasn't something that was as advanced as it is now. I don't think the Zodiac would have even thought that his seliva could have linked him? Either way, whoever's DNA was tested from the letter, wasn't Allens?
plarmich2112 2 years ago
Oh I know. But if I were a criminal I wouldnt take any chanses. I would try not to leave any evidence from myself because you never know what the future holds. And I don´t think the Zodiac was any less aware...But that´s just my opinion ;)
1977jenna 2 years ago
"At the time, though, DNA wasn't something that was as advanced as it is now ... Either way, whoever's DNA was tested from the letter, wasn't Allens?"
#1. Why the fuck do you put a question-mark at the end of every sentence? God that's annoying.
#2. There were many people who made contact with that letter and the DNA taken from it was simply assumed to be that of The Zodiac. There was no real reason that this had to be the case.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
@1977jenna I 90 PERCENT AGREE WITH U BESIDE THE FACT THEY DIDNT HAVE DNA TESTING BACK THEN AND ALA WUDNT HAVE BEEN THINKNG THAT HE COULD GET CONVICTED BY LICKING A STAMP
SuperBceltics 1 year ago
@SuperBceltics They could tell blood type back then through saliva
misscarolinec 1 year ago
I seriously doubt it was Arthur Lee Allen. Even the eye witness descriptions paint a way different picture than Allens appearance. Yes Mike mageau picked out ALA'asface from a mug shot after the shooting/ But, he was in the process of being muredered!! Violently shot!! Even if he never really lost conciousness, I doubt he was able to see the man's face. By all accounts it was pitch black out there!!
plarmich2112 2 years ago
agreed
Booya2112 2 years ago
I doubt it too but I don´t know if it´s because in some twisted way I still want this to be an unsolved mystery? Weird but I don´t think I´m alone.
Robert Graysmiths books about it are still the best I´ve ever read, I completely love them!!
...and there´s still much about Arthus Leigh Allen that is weird...all the things he´s said, the watch, his posessions, he was at the crimescenes at the time, same shoesize, the knife etc. What did he say about this?
1977jenna 2 years ago
You're spot-on 1977jenna.
It was ALA. They pull some fingerprints off a taxi? How many fingerprints you expect to find on a taxi?
The DNA test was completely and utterly based on the assumption that it was the Zodiac's DNA they were testing. It could've been anyones who had come into contact with the letter, or someone else attached them.
Handwriting? What a joke. The guy's a cryptographer ffs. A cryptographer isn't going to come up with an alphabet that looks nothing like his handwriting?
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
There comes a point where there are too many co-incidences to ignore.
This is the case here. ALA did it. Without a doubt.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
And the eye witnesses that saw him at the Stein murder, sure described ALA to a T ,didn't they?
plarmich2112 2 years ago
Young, terrified witnesses being led on by desperate police after witnessing a crime from a distance at night are hardly to be considered reliable.
It's preposterous to think that a serial killer would put on a pair of glasses and a wig to disguise his identity during a murder. Right?
" They said it was the closest to the man they had seen that night of any photo they had ever been shown."
That's not how witnesses react when they're sure. They say 'That's him'. Not 'the chin looks right'.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
These people gave the composite sketch. That sketch would've immediately superimposed itself over any vague image they had in their heads from that night. The SKETCH is the face that would've appeared over and over in their minds, in their dreams.
Even if that one murder was not committed by ALA, the evidence against him that he committed the others is extraordinary. Everything, and I mean everything, points to him.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
I'm not certain on this, but, I beleive the person described leaving the Stein murder site was also encountered by SFPD . I don't recall any reports of them fingering Allen ALA was on the radar of the police for a long time. But they were never able to really connect him with any of the murders. Although he had a high IQ, he made stupid mistakes and commited crimes of which he was always caught. The man who was Zodiac, was much too careful.
plarmich2112 2 years ago
The cops, one in particular, caught a glimpse of a white male walking away from the scene, and dismissed it because it had been mistakenly reported to have been a 'black male' offender.
It would seem that the Stein murder was done by other than ALA, but I believe he took credit for it.
"never able to really connect him with any of the murders."
Every piece of circumstantial evidence pointed to ALA. Locations, times, phrases used, friends/family accounts, shoeprints, knowledge of bombs etc etc
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
Oh, I admit that he makes the best suspect that they ever interviewed! But, With all these supposed eye witnesses, and physical evidence, I would think that, if they had the right man, they would have been able to prosecute him!!
plarmich2112 2 years ago
One thing to remember is that they also had at least one eyewitness that picked out ALA.
The main reason the police never charged him was the handwriting not matching, but as I've said ... a cryptographer not changing the alphabet he uses would be like a fingerprint analyst not wearing gloves when he commits a crime. It was just terrible judgement and a absolute reliance on 'science' without considering (what I considered) the obvious flaws in logic.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
I had to read awhile before someone thought what i did. Throw the handwriting completely out (most stupidest evidence) The man that got shot and almost died from the killer... picked ALA said, "Thats the man that shot me" That should be talked about more, the woman that got picked up by him? Where are these people? R they not creditable? Me personaly could watch the interviews of ALA and know his voice his breathing habits and his eyes if i was around him for awhile when my life was in jepardy
foxyfonzie 2 years ago
@foxyfonzie the only problem was that they did not have enough to even arrest him, yes that man that said "i'll never forget that face" we dont know a lot of his mental stability. and we're not told everything... i think that it was a lot more complicated than that
baconaitor21 1 year ago
"I would think that, if they had the right man, they would have been able to prosecute him!! "
Most of the police actually believed that it wasn't ALA after the handwriting tests. If they had've matched they would've arrested and charged him. This was the only thing that kept him out of prison.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
He also passed a polygraph.
plarmich2112 2 years ago
"He also passed a polygraph. "
That's one of the most blatant grasps at a straw I've ever seen.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
The most likely explanation is that there was another wack-job that did a couple of things around the same time, and the Zodiac just decided to take credit for them.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
the boy that got shot in the car identified allen. And said thats him. I really believe it was allen.
RoxieH186 2 years ago
robert graysmith seems like a really sincere guy,, but ALA no way hes the zodiac,, the zodiac is still alive and well living in SF,,,, he will send us his final letter when he dies,, he just needs everyone to know it was him,,,Joe80dman,,is the closest one in here with the right idea
urchin76 2 years ago
It may well be that a man named Jack Torrance was the Zodiac. The FBI is still conducting tests. I wonder if they're stalling for some odd reason?
joe80dman 3 years ago
indeed i am ready to know already
i know who it is not arthur lee allen dna no match
basinbomb 2 years ago
Sometimes I think the cops knew, and have known all along, the identity of Zodiac, but would embarrass an influential person, or organization, if the truth were revealed.
joe80dman 2 years ago
i doubt it, zodiac is just a modern jack the ripper case along with a hand full of other serial killers slipping threw the cracks of justice with knowledge and a little luck on there sides.
if you are saying it was political, what would be the motive, and why take out a couple of civilians out at a time, use a bomb to target federal buildings, and then you could have said it was a terrorist cover up or something to that nature, na i disagree with you there by the way of logical thinking
basinbomb 2 years ago
Well, I never thought the killings were political. I was thinking he might have been a prominent person's son, or nephew, or even someone in law enforcement. He may have been a homicidal maniac. A guy who just couldn't resist the thought of the next kill. Anyway, maybe it was decided to just cover-up his dirty deeds, and rush him off to a sanctuary somewhere. Just a theory.
joe80dman 2 years ago
yea i mean could be, but usually homicidal maniacs are out of control and get caught for mistakes eventually, but his final words were "i am in control now"
personally i think he was smarter than everybody else, possibly military background as it states in the movie because of his boots, could he had inside help sure, but that normally that only happens never, can't think of anybody getting away with that one, you? guess that is a dumb question, if you would know they wouln't have got away...
basinbomb 2 years ago
I felt somewhat as you until I gave one important fact a little deeper thought. I find it very odd that the two cops merely allowed him to "walk by" after the Stein (taxi) murder. Doesn't this strike you as rather obvious. WHY would these cops, after responding to a call about a homicide that had just occurred, allow the Zodiac to walk away near the scene of the crime?!? The allege that the call mentioned something about the perp as being black, but there's nothing to substantiate this.
joe80dman 2 years ago
it did raise a flag, but that could have been just hollywood doing there thing, plus i am not to sure how bright these cops were, and the racial profile movement was current at the time right?
probably just some old lady needing a new set of glasses
either way it is mysterious, but like i said before, he had a little bit of luck, the rest was skill like military trained
basinbomb 2 years ago
The only victim to see Zodiacs face said it was Allen,thats good enough for me.
JohnandMarlenafreak 2 years ago
i see you watched the movie, not everything in hollywood movies happened : )
sad i must say that
the zodiac was not a common average everyday criminal...way smarter
basinbomb 2 years ago
Saw the movie,read the book,among other things,I know someone who still is investigating it even today,most of the things from the movie is true,including that moment at the end,its not a typical movie where Hollywood makes up a bunch of crap,its all based on Roberts book and he doesn't lie.
JohnandMarlenafreak 2 years ago
well that again is Roberts' opinion to make money, i too have studied many things on the zodiac and lets just say we see eye to eye from a psychological stand point...and arthur lee allen is not the profile match didn't you see the movie dna evidence no match, profile no match the lead detective says he is not the one :)
basinbomb 2 years ago
Do you realize just how many sets of DNA get caught under stamps? On top of that, where is the proof that he was the one who licked it?
It's pure assumption. Anyone could've done it.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
I don't realize at all how much of another persons DNA could be collected on a postage stamp in a secured evidence storage facility at a police station! Please explain that one. I'm sorry to have resorted to common sense , but one can only guess that the person who licked the stamp on the letter sent by the Zodiac, was..well, probably the Zodiac! Unless he had an accomplice? A mystery tongue of sorts?
plarmich2112 2 years ago
"I don't realize at all how much of another persons DNA could be collected on a postage stamp in a secured evidence storage facility at a police station!"
Correct.
The DNA test included the entire section of stamp. That means evidence from under the stamp as well as the top of the stamp.
The DNA could've come from anyone.
You seem to forget that the letter did not originate in a storage facility. It went through many people's hands to get to it's destination.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
But as soon as the letters were received, the SFPD treated them pretty carefully. DNA was not a concern at the time,but fingerprints were. I seriously doubt that the person who licked the stamp had his DNA altered through casual handling of the letters in the police dept? Don't get me wrong, I think it's a real possibility that ALA could have been the one. But, then again there's too much that can clear his name as well?
plarmich2112 2 years ago
"But as soon as the letters were received, the SFPD treated them pretty carefully. "
DNA could've come from debris in the mailbox, the other letters inside the mailbox, the postman who picked the mail up, his mail bags, the postman who delivered it, the people or objects at the store where the stamp was originally sold etc. They couldn't even claim that the DNA came from the person who licked that stamp.
DNA travels. It was not definitive in this case by any means, and most reports admit that.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
DNA is a pretty good way to identify someone. I don't believe that it is so hap-hazardly spread around like you suggest. That theory worked for Johhny Cochran, at OJ's trial, but then again, O.J.'s jury was very easily persuaded! In other words, most people considered them idiots!! It's like saying, "Yeah, this rape victim has my clients DNA collected from her , but isn't it possible that his DNA was transferred from a handshake"?? Come on, again , let's use common sense?
plarmich2112 2 years ago
"I don't believe that it is so hap-hazardly spread around like you suggest."
This is completely different from, say, a paternity test, or a rape victim test. Not even in the same stratosphere biologically. Your comparison of the two shows your understanding of the processes involved in DNA testing is next to zero.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
The only way I would've had to have admitted at least two killers acting in unison (or even perhaps ruled ALA out) is if they could match the blood from the DNA on the pieces of shirt Zodiac sent in letters from the Stein murder .. to Stein.
I believe he probably just took credit for that one, when he didn't actually do it.
One of the more damning pieces of evidence for me was ALA's taped interview. If ever I've seen a guilty man putting on a pre-prepared act, that's it.
watch?v=hCsUCUf_u5E
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
Honestly I think there were two freaks getting around at the time, and Zodiac was taking credit for things that he did do and the things he didn't do.
Zodiac had even said things to the effect that he would do this, and they wouldn't know which things he really was responsible for.
That's why they never got him. They were looking for two different people and expecting all the evidence to fit just one.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
Every cop and every Zodiac expert agrees that only one man was responsible for Faraday-Jensen, Ferrin-Mageau,Sheppard-Hartnell, and Paul Stein. Zodiac was able to give detailed info on each killing. He was not able to positively link himself to any others. They never got him because he was not a sloppy person, like ALA was. I doubt they ever even identified him by name, let alone, interviewed him.
plarmich2112 2 years ago
"Every cop and every Zodiac expert agrees that only one man was responsible for Faraday-Jensen, Ferrin-Mageau,Sheppard-Hartnel l, and Paul Stein."
I disagree with this and consider it an assertion with no basis in reality whatsoever.
"Zodiac was able to give detailed info on each killing."
So was Ottis Toole and Henry Lee Lucas.
Newspapers reveal a lot more than you might think.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
Refute any point I've made and I'll be glad to review it, but my points on the DNA, the handwriting and the fingerprints are all strong enough to be upheld in a court of law.
Your points that "everyone believed it" .. just wouldn't.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
"A mystery tongue of sorts? "
hehe
The DNA did not necessarily come from the person who licked the stamps (as a side-note, ALA did have another licking tongue for his stamps, that of Don Cheney, who claimed to have done just that)
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
Really? I've read a lot about this case, and seen lots of docs! But I have never heard Chaney claim that one? Well, there you have it. Can they get a hold of his DNA? Case solved!!- "Hey Don, be a sport and lick these stamps for me! I have to rush a letter to the SF Chronicle editor!! SHH!! Keep it on the down low!!" HA!!
plarmich2112 2 years ago
"But I have never heard Chaney claim that one?"
watch?v=slB_ZG2EPPU
Watch this series through if you haven't seen it.
""Hey Don, be a sport and lick these stamps for me! " haha that's pretty much exactly what he claims.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
oh god Graysmith says:
''to be at the crime scenes and know the victims, he would have to be the killer''
Allen didn't know ANY VICTIMS and wasn't seen at any crime scenes.
Cruz99999 3 years ago
he did not know darlene?
sonjaxfactor 3 years ago
No. the so called ''painting party'' could of possibly not even existed. Dean Ferrin, her husband of the time, said there was never a party like that.
Cruz99999 3 years ago
so that was made up for drama purposes in the movie? was that in mr. graysmith book? the painting party?
sonjaxfactor 3 years ago
No. Some of the myths were factoids invented by Robert Greysmith to sell his books years ago. Some of it came from testimony of witnesses that have been utterly discredited.
There is more evidence to exonerate Allen than what has exonerated many convicted killers. Greysmith has done a lot to keep the case against ALA going...and to sell his books.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
I agree,. SF was just becoming settled as a gay community. He killed people in the bay area, and hated women. Im sure it was a transient to the gay community, not necessarily gay, who's probably dead or dehabilitated by age or HIV.
LOGAN8362 2 years ago
That is an interesting theory logan.
nowayjose470 2 years ago
Comment removed
LOGAN8362 2 years ago
is the zodiac killer still alive???
kabris922 3 years ago
No one knows man, it is very likely he is dead by now, but until we find out who really is/was the zodiac killer, we'll never find out.
KrazyKevin93 3 years ago
sure
freedomfighter95 4 years ago
i think im the only one that actualy nos who the zodiac is
oneleafd92 4 years ago
no u dont know who it is u gonnie
jeffsolis 3 years ago
who?
123lott123 3 years ago
Zodiac was wearing his hair in more then one style. He was supposedly to be wearing a greasy haircut under the hood in 1969. Sort off a pompadaur
jeffmadecrack 4 years ago
didnt he die of a heart attack??
CSIKate 4 years ago
description of a man watching Darlene Ferrin from time to time in early 1969.
Mestizo1971 4 years ago
And at last...
Andrew Walker the Vacaville stalker. He was unemployed during the Z known murders. Walker had training in cryptology and teached it while in the military. His description fits the sketch of Mageau and Ferrin's assailant at BRS; this was provided by Lt. John Husted who interviewed Linda Del Buono for a description.
Mestizo1971 4 years ago
he was investigated and cleared. Walker isn't his real name btw.
Cruz99999 3 years ago
He died as a result of a vehicular collison in 1976. When Sonoma Sheriffs Office learned about the drawings from his wife,they seized unknown items and kept it for months,but returned it back to the next of kin. Could it be Z related material that could of kept out any public knowledge after soo many years?
Mestizo1971 4 years ago
Also,there is Fred Manalli,the Santa Rosa JC teacher,who should be looked as a suspect. He may of written the Z letters; his fingerprint is somewhere in Sacramento. Manalli is the teacher in Santa Rosa that Graysmith wrote about regarding a suspicious person involved in the Santa Rosa hitchhiking murders. This man too was a ex-military man,taller than 6 feet. Not too much is given about him because Graysmith was only given limited info about the teacher.
Mestizo1971 4 years ago
Missing/absence of TJK whereabouts during the first Z killing in Dec 1968. A month later in early 1969,if I'm correct,TJK resigned his position as a mathemetican professor at Berkely U without a clear reason.
One of Z letter the author used FC,so did TJK in a written letter.
Z had knowledge of weapons/explosives; TJK also knew how to hunt and bomb making.
Just take these coincidences for once.
Mestizo1971 4 years ago
TJK in his 1967 photo...put it side to side with the admended drawing of Paul Stine's murder,you can compare it to a near perfect "T"
TJK analysis of his writing compares to certain words,adjectives to Z.
The only problem is that TJK was thin build,Z was described as a stocky heavyset man. TJK first start serial bombing in his 30's; Z during that time was somewhere in his late 30's or early 40's.
Mestizo1971 4 years ago
Theodore J. Kacynski has this trait that fits a better profile than Allen.
Z detested various groups of society; TJK despised also groups of civilization including anyone connected with technology. Z seemed to respect wildlife(huh?);TJK respected the environment.
Both held grudges.
Allen also held grudges,but his profile leaned toward sexual deviancy,sexual torture. Sex wasn't common in any adjective found in any Z letter.
Mestizo1971 4 years ago
Ever look at the crime scene photo of Paul Stines murder..he's missing his glasses. Zodiac must of took it along with Stine's wallet and keys. That's what I thought of it.
Mestizo1971 4 years ago
There is no doubt that Robert Graysmith uncovered a lot of useful information in the course of his near obsessive research for the book. Kudos to him for that.
His conceit, however, is that he felt he had to "solve" it himself.
Subsequent DNA tests revealed that Arthur Leigh Allen's DNA did NOT match the known DNA samples recovered from the ZODIAC letters and that his handwriting did not match the writing on those same letters.
Res ipsa loquitur.
The police need to keep looking.
TheMerryPup 4 years ago 5
Those old letters were touched and handled decades ago by a hundred different people. No wonder they didn't match Allens' DNA. That does NOT prove his innocence.
senhuan 4 years ago
No it doesn't. But the number of things that don't match makes it hard for me to take him seriously as a suspect.
No - fingerprint match (from Stine's cab)
No - DNA match (from saliva on the stamp)
No - handwriting match
I'll keep an open mind and say I won't exclude him 100% as a suspect, but if this mystery is ever solved there has to be SOME tangible evidence like DNA or fingerprints to tie the suspect to the crimes. All the rest is speculation.
TheMerryPup 4 years ago
I agree with MerryPup. What about the glasses? Did Lee Allen wear glasses? Plus, he didn't really have a buzz cut. He was balding. Zodiac had either a buzz cut or curly hair by some testimonies. The lady who heard his voice said Allen's was not the same. THEODore kACZynskI is really worth looking into.
Boosted18 4 years ago
Yes the letters were tested for Leighs dna, but it came up as not his. BUT, Leigh never licked stamps or glue on envelopes, he said it made him sick. I just want the people who were in on it, to give up the story before they die. all matter exists forever, there fore somewhere lies a .22 jc higgins model 80 that killed david and betty, even if its melted to nothing or in a stream or lake, its still out there
jeffmadecrack 4 years ago
There is evidence on who the Zodiac is! If you watch the new movie and read his book who will know who it is! But the case is still open in Napa and Vallijo.
sadanieldavey 4 years ago
Graysmith put a lot of bullshit into his book. You must let the evidence drive the suspect not the other way around, this is the major flaw in the case. Main reason why we never solved this case.
MrBlonde132 4 years ago 2
Graysmith is the reason why we know leigh had scratches on his face The day after the riverside slaying, he is also the reason why we know leigh was in the same spot of high way 101 when the santa barbara murder occured, Just a question, what did graysmith put in the book that was bullshit?
jeffmadecrack 4 years ago
what it boils down to is...in spite of the non matching to anything biological evidence to Arthur Leigh Allen,that the law enforcement agencies involved could never rule him out as a suspect. Kacynski was never ruled out as a suspect.
Mestizo1971 4 years ago
were the 3 letters ever tested?
colbro06 4 years ago
The Zodiac was either a Police Officer or had some sort of Military training..he had an amazing shot with a handgun and used police tactics to pull up behind victims cars (on an angle so they can't drive away) or shining the flashlight directly in the eyes..Has anyone seen the movie Mr.Brooks?
zodiackilla 4 years ago
Great movie! What a story! And he,s still at large!
wtonckens 4 years ago
Kinda creepy know that one of the Zodiac's murders happened in my hometown. Yeesh...
supernova8610 4 years ago
no ones safe -
your in danger -
but we will protect you.
follow us
the rules
and propaganda
and some day -
you will be a walking robot..
you NEED us we will protect you..
its a perfect world. PROPAGANDA
7asonMartin 4 years ago
that is bullshit.... how can they not catch him
rodneysLegend 4 years ago
I'm still alive
zodiac1927 4 years ago 3
Shut Up ur GAY!!! hahaha
redman19892003 4 years ago
I wasn't in a state of fear then!
Jenscool 4 years ago
Jake gyllenhaal is really hot ! i want him :D
alistuskonjuktio 4 years ago
get a DNA test sample of the letter that has the fingerprint mark, and compare it to Ed Kaczinsky, the Unibomber. There just very well might be a match.
primachord 4 years ago
they did that and it was no match. as trimuse already said before, it didn't match any of the top 5 supspects. and kaczinsky was one of them.
daveandnofirebrigade 4 years ago
hm...jake gyllenhaal is hot.
flouridethelightning 4 years ago
whats the name of that song rolly polly rolly or sumthing thnx..
scottyc93 4 years ago
hurdy gurdy man
by, Donovan
HottieTamalie 4 years ago
I loved that movie. The Zodiac was a genius, unlike other serial killers we know (*cough* Son of Sam)
SeanXCore138 4 years ago
They never caught Zodiac. According to the Encyclopedia of Serial Killers they have cleared the top 5 suspects including Arthur Leigh Allen using DNA evidence.
Trimuse 4 years ago
who does this song
leaimale 5 years ago
hurdy gurdy man by donovan jimmy page on lead guitar
area51greys 4 years ago
i just seen this movie last night on my birthday.
it is amazing.
i want to watch it again and again, it is so interesting.
jake gyllenhaal is stunning in it.
speckk2 5 years ago
Does anyone recognize the song at the beginning and end of this clip?
krakatoalewis 5 years ago
krakatoalewis--Hurdy Gurdy Man-Donovan
screw47 5 years ago
took 'em long enough to start investigating again about Zodiac
it's like they're all waiting for a movie to come out so they can go "oh,another one about that creep.we should better find the fills and start over" *roll eyes*
madxxxhatter 5 years ago
thank you for posting this
fridayiscrazy 5 years ago
thank you very much for this upload. Cant wait to see the film. Hopefully we will get it inthe UK!
welnik 5 years ago
Thank you for posting this!
ladymoz 5 years ago