call me morbid, but i find this video funny, jews found positive job for hamas, make peace with them by looking at each others, monkey face's, they get confused
this is bunch of bullshit just cus 2 guys are standing there and the film crew is screaming that they are human shields dosent mean anything! i dont see any proofs of danger to those 2 guys in this video, nor do i see proofs for said "investigation" by the idf
@yamov AGREED, this is a pathetic excuse of used palestinians as human shields, and if the Palestinians did do as the Israeli soldier just tried to tell the cameraman, then they could've went to speak to the stone throwers, instead they stood in front of the jeep (with no sign of force by the IDF soldier sitting in THE BACK OF THE CAR!) and there could've been some simple conflict resolution, instead of this BS, which undermines the liberties that are in deed taken away from Palestinians
Guy would not have to put them in front of the vehicle if rocks were not being thrown at him. He made a simple solution to his problem, if you want to be dicks and throw rocks at him then your punishment will be hitting your own people. He is not the one being violent they are, so I see this a peaceful way of solving the problem. Now if they threw some rocks at him and he pulled out his gun and blasted them away then yes you guys might have a reason to be mad, but that didnt happen,so shut up.
notice how the camra man doesnt allow him to even talk....the soldier is clearly saying that he told this people to move along but you morons still belive this arabic propoganda
@goldenmsh@goldenmsh shut up, there is nothing he said that would possibly be propaganda to rule the world, so stop making stupid statements. If you would like to educate yourself there is a video I would like you to watch.
@TheTymera Thank you for your rational argument....it has really set me on the straight and narrow (please register sarcasm......now) . I was making a very short reference to previous comments which quite firmly push how evil the IDF for doing this to poor innocent palestinians....therefore deliberately ignoring the same tactics used by Hamas et al. This is either deliberate deceipt...or complete stupidity...which bracket would you like it to be under. :)
@TheTymera I agree...neither should be...I am arguing in a very short statement that action by one is very easily mimicked by another...and if it is your initial actions that are replicated...you are not in a position to complain about it. The issue I have is a blind disregard and choice by some not to recognise the actions of HAMAS while pointing the finger at the IDF...that to me IS stupidity...but thank you for asking the question...especillay liked the capitaliasation of THAT :)
@Tagemandbagem It appears that you like to draw a long...and innacurate bow....where in the comment above do you get this from? I am intrigued. Pointing out that in a conflict, you cannot complain when your adversary uses the same tactics as you doesnt indicate agreement with anything of the sort.
@Tagemandbagem I thought it was fairly clear in the above comment "doesnt indicate agreement with anything of the sort." ....so No I dont agree. And I notice that due to your apparent tunnel vision of the evil IDF, that you havent considered the major point which is that both sides are in a "dirty conflict" with both sides using dirty tactics. To be rational, one must assess the actions of both.
@jaycrazyman ....that is a very valid point regarding this video clip...... however I think you mite find over the past 30 odd years that there is a fair bit of evidence...ranging from the placement of rocket sites, to the positoning of woman and children in the front of protests where weapons are present. If this is the ONLY footage you can recall since the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians has been occurring...you may not have noticed that. :)
@bjlee77 the issue is 'wars' are fought amongst equals in power, since the palestinians or hamas do not have that ability Israel is the bully, you blockade them which does not give them much room to maneuver so rocket sites in civilian population is unavoidable, I saw one video of palestinian civilians get in-between IDF and hamas but thats not using humans as shields when civilians volunteer, but you have still failed to provide evidence!!!
@jaycrazyman Ok...I am going to bow out from this conversation...it has become clear from every response that I have received....no matter how much I take the position that BOTH sides use the same tactics. I have hit the wall, i am sick of trying to have rational, unbiased conversations with individuals who are so blinded by their bullshit blame game, they cant see a rational point. Hence rational people are quiet while extremists are heard.
@bjlee77 you utter such bullshit, yes the blame game is wrong but this conflict is pretty one sided, you chat but can't back up your claims and you call me extreme and declare yourself a rational minded person. I asl you again prove your claims before you come out guns blazing!!!
@jaycrazyman Ok...one more, I just cant resist. I will put it in bullet points for you. 1) 30 years of conflict full of actions by BOTH sides is a tad hard to condense into this number of characters...feel free to research outside of YouTube..and outside of the search phrase 'evil IDF'. 2) Its not all about you "crazyman", I was making a generalised statement about extremist views being the loudest...you I believe, MAY just be ignorant..possibly not extreme.
@bjlee77 hahahah i think your ignorance is totally laughable, I think you are a zionist playing silly games, the conflict has been going on for over 60 years, the only reason your voice will never be heard by sane people is because there is no conviction in what you believe like the zionist state you, your belief your entire existence is based on deceit and lies!!!
You make the evil look saintly and the saintly look evil, well guess what the world is waking up!!!
@jaycrazyman Woohoo....man, did you just find your cliche guide book? :)
I have just checked..... every comment I have posted...I have referenced BOTH sides commiting crimes....Damit, by placing dual blame, I have failed in my EVIL plan as a Zionist Robot to take over the world media.....
Avoid the Meth..and enjoy searching the web for 911 conspiracies.
@bjlee77 the thing is both sides are not to blame until you can prove that they are both wrong since you cannot prove a case against palestinians you have no right to blame them, you cannot argue for israel because the video above proves israeli guilt therefore to make a case for the zionist you automatically claim that both sides are in the wrong, I don't see any rationality or logic in your arguments. When you can prove your point then reply until then good bye!!!
What is WRONG with us? When are we going to become independent of Israel?
How has such a insignificant excuse of a country with an addiction for atrocities managed to hijack our foreign policy? When are we going to grow a pair? This parasite,and make no mistake of it, Israel is America's tapeworm,habitually spies on us, has killed Americans, siphons billions of dollars from us, spits in our faces, has attacked our navy (remember the USS Liberty?) yet we're told that israel is our good friend!
This is proof? A blurry video showing an IDF soldier sitting in an ARMORED VEHICLE, on a laptop, telling some people he has custody of to give him privacy to talk to someone on his laptop. Where are the human shields? THEY ARE NOT IN COMBAT! They are not being "shielded" by these people! You want to see a REAL human shield video? Type this into your searchbar: "Hamas using children as human shield". Thats an armed soldier using a child so he can cross the street without getting sniped.
As of January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries.That's right 28! When Israeli hasbarat pigs talk about the 8,600 rockets, they never mention that those rockets actually killed only 28 people. Now you might say, 28 people dead is still a big deal. I agree, but it's also true that Israel's half-truths are only good for brainwashing Israelis. The whole world considers Israel a terrorist state, sponsored by the US.
@sadigov 28 dead, yes, and hundreds wounded, millions of dollars in repairs, and massive psychological dmaage to those who arent dead. People can barely sleep or focus on anything in school because of the trauma they live with every day.
And wait, its OKAY to shoot 8000 rockets and mortars, AS LONG AS YOU DONT KILL TOO MANY PEOPLE? Is that what you are trying to say?
What about the palestinians, which had also suffer when the IDF used white phosphorus?
And don't you think that there are MORE deads, MORE wounded and MORE psychologica damage, general? It is not ok to shoot 8000 rockets, but it is also not ok to AVENGE these 8000 rockets with MILLIONS of ammunition, more DEADS and WOUNDED and white phosphorus which is an awful weapon and forbidden to use against civilians.
@Speedsky White Phospherous, when used as an obscurant is perfectly legal. Military experts agree that WP is one of the best obscurants because of its fast burn time and thick white smoke. And your REALLY getting angry that we tried to stop the mortar and rocket fire? What would YOU do that is so much better? Please, give me a better solution than what we did.
@Speedsky All of Gaza has a crowd of people. Its the most densley packed state in the world. And Hamas knows this. Thats why they purpously start attacks in heavily crowded areas. Thats also why those lovely uniforms they show magically disappear when they start fighting. The soldiers cannot tell the difference until they start shooting at them.
@Speedsky I said Gaza as an example of a place controlled by Arabs, that continuosly slanders and demonizes the Jews/Israeli's/Zionists and Americans.
Soldiers do not just let a crowd riot, throwing moltov cocktails, and rocks, and just "wait for a better opportunity".
@Speedsky A subgroup, the same way that Hamas is a subgroup of the PLO? Then they too are terrorist. PJAK are not terrorist. Their targets are military, and political. That is not terrorism. And Israel has not stated any affiliations to PJAK. Unless, of course, you have top secret classifed information of the Mossads activites? Oh, and btw, they want rights for Kurds, in Iran.
Iran is one of the biggest violators of human rights. I think it is second only to China.
They got filmed and the PJAK attacks civilian buildings near the borders of iran, THATS why mossad trains them. But they do know that the PJAK also gives these informations to the PKK. Mossad DOES train the PKK. They get supported by them trough new weapons, and please general, never ever say that the PJAK is not a terrorgroup. They clearly have intentions which resembles terrorist acts.
And doesn't Israel violate human rights CONSTANTLY in palestine?
@Speedsky That "resemble" a terrorist group? The only group that does anything remotely similar is Hamas. Saying that since they are a subgroup of the PKK makes them terrorists, opens up the argument that since Hamas is a subgroup of the PLO, then they too are terrorists.
And no, Israel does not violate human rights, constantly or otherwise. Unless theres something I'm missing here? And dont bring up the blockade, you were fine with that until the flotilla occured.
I was never fine with that, i just didn't discussed it on youtube.
The PJAK clearly is a militant organisation like the hamas, if the PJAK is not a terrororganisation, so is hamas not one. Do you Dennis Kucinich, general? He's the one who claims that the PJAK gets supported trough israel financially and gets supported with weapons. Israel fears Iran, that's why they use the PJAK, don't count them as terrorists etc. But if you really think that they
@Speedsky There have been dozens of blockades in the past, and the Israeli one is no different. They stopped hundreds of ships before the flotilla. Theirs is not the first blockade to result in deaths. What makes this one so special?
@Speedsky Thats curious because I have a section of the Geneva Convention that says that what they are doing is NOT collective punishment.
This has become a case of "my source says I'm right. Well, MY source says I'M right". We're even using the same source! I'm not going to even bother arguing with you if this keeps up.
You haven't given me any solutions that would work BETTER than what we have done.
Why should i come up with a solution? Im not representing israels foreign policy or israel at all.
We are using the same source, correct, but it is not about collective punishment, its about the restriction of medical support which is illegal according to the fourth geneva convention. You could say that this is a lie, but just look at the ICRC report.
@Speedsky The ICRC report speaks about the distribution of medical support in Gaza. Israel GIVES medicine and humanitarian aid. HAMAS is responsible for distributing it. Instead, they sell it on the black market, for rockets and mortars.
Thats not israels fault. We give 100 trucks a day. The Gazan government (hamas) is the one responisble for it after that.
Hamas is not responsible for distributing it, ISRAEL is. Israel is the one who occupied it and still does. The blockade comes from israel not from hamas. That's why the fourth geneva convention is IN FORCE for israel, not for hamas. If Israel doesn't support gaza medically then they violate against the fourth geneva.
We also spoked on that 100 Trucks, these 100 Trucks only have a variety of 100 Products, which are overfilled in gaza.
@Speedsky If Israel was occupying Gaza, why do we not have any soldiers there? Why dont we have any pull in the government? Why dont we, instead, simply kick Hamas out of the government, and do what we did before we left? When we occupied them, we built hospitals, gave them water and electricity, and jobs. We left, and Hamas has damned its own people in its quest to destroy Israel.
If we occupied Gaza, we would have just kicked Hamas out. Stop B.S.ing. Its unbecoming of you.
@Speedsky Wow. I'm not saying Gaza was NEVER occupied. And I'm not saying that Israel doesn't still occupy places. I'm saying that RIGHT NOW, Gaza has full autonomy. There are not Israeli troops in Gaza. What else is there, to occupy a place?
@Speedsky How many airports are in Gaza, that them controlling the skies is really a problem? Gaza gets billions of dollars in aid. The Arab leaders are filthy rich from oil money. Why are WE obligated to supply and support a people who murder our people simply because Allah told them to?
Israel does not occupy Gaza. Look at the West Bank. That place has one of highest life expectancies in the Middle East. THATS Israeli occupation. Not Gaza. Look at Gush Katif, before and after.
You're not obligated, but israel is. Israel is the one who occupied gaza and westbank. Gaza and Westbank is under israels responsibility now.
General, you can't argue with me trough status or pictures wether an area is occupied or not. Even the U.N. says that gaza is occupied. Unless you proof me, or give me a non-jewish/zionist source that logically PROOFS that gaza is not under occupation, i will never discuss it here again.
And here's a nice quote. "The 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which holds that occupation ends when the controlling power no longer "exercises the functions of government" over the territory in question."
So according to the Fourth Geneva Convention, Gaza is not occupied.
@Speedsky But the quote from the Fourth Geneva Convention CLEARLY defines an occupation, and Gaza does not fit that definition. Therefore, it does NOT perfectly fit your argument. Its actually the opposite of your argument. So, unless you misread my quote, the very document you brandished at me has proven you wrong.
The very document? General are you serious? The U.N., the Human Rights Watch and the International Committee of the Red Cross say that gaza is OCCUPIED, and you believe at one source which came from a news magazine. You just need to think logic. Look at the points i mentioned earlier, this are functions of a government which israel CONTROLS.
@Speedsky Israel controls no functions of the Gazan government. The Human Rights Watch ignores all violations, even the ones hundreds of times more grevious, simply because they obsess over Israel. In Africa, thousands are raped and murdered by terrorist each day. In Sri Lanka, the government tried to wipe out terrorism, by turning several cities into parking lots. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died. Did I hear ANYTHING the Human Rights Watch did about that?
@Speedsky Yes, that they control their airspace and harbors. But that is not government. Do you REALLY think the reason Gaza has such problems is because they cannot own their own airports? I think we've all seen what Radical Islamists can do with airplanes. I was in New York when 9/11 happened. And this is not an isolated incident. These plane hijakings have occured all over the world. London, Africa, Europe, Turkey, America, dozens more.
@Speedsky Given that Hamas is in total control of the government, and even you admit they are Radical Islamist, yes, I think that if they had freedom of the skies, they would use it as a terrorist weapon.
I never said all Gazans are terrorist. I do not believe that. I believe that the ones in control are terrorist. Hamas.
Every time we gave them land, they just used it for more strategic placement of their mortars. Why should we bother trying again, and just lose more of our land for nothing?
Of course they will use weaposn against israel, if they still abuse the ottoman law and build jewish settlements in west bank and lock up whole gaza, preventing newly goods to enter which are in deep need of the gaza population.
Imagine someone locks you up, wouldn't you resist at all?
@Speedsky Did the soldiers say they were going to lock them up? No. They first asked politely if they could inspect the goods. They warned them of the legal ramifications of breaking a blockade. After they refused to show what they were carrying, the IDF had no choice but to go on the ships.
They were afraid of explosives, so they intercepted the ship away from the shore. They brought no armor, and barely any weapons, because they were not planning to fight.
@Speedsky Oh, and btw, the Arab leaders are making huge fusses over Israel building settlements ON LAND IT ALREADY OWNS. How do you justify that? And they say that building settlements is the reason suicide bombings happen. Do you agree? Are building settlements and suicide bombings equal in your mind?
You call us evil for defending our country, yet barely mention anything when a bomb goes off in a shopping mall or a nightclub.
I never said that bombings excuse settlements, but it is a big factor which leads to these suicide bombers.
Im not talking about land it owns, look up the ottoman law and you know what im talking about. And i wouldn't say land that israel RIGHTFULLY owns. We already spoke about that, no agreements because the promised independence for the arabs was not made by the brits, and they just immigrated jews into palestine.
Here are the points. 1- Israel still controls the air and sea space of the gaza strip.
Not a single palestinian can operate at a sea/airport without israeli permission.
This limits the palestinian freedom of trade and travel.
2- Israel controls the joint gazastrip-west bank population registry, this means israel can decide who is a palestinian and who a foreigner. palestinians must seek israeli approval for every individual who wants to move to the west bank.
Here are the points. 1.Over 8000 rockets and mortars have been fired from Gaza into Israeli cities.
2. Hamas's charter call for the open genocide of all of Israel, and curses those who refuse to take sides. It says that any form of peace process is contrary to its beliefs.
3. Israel has complete right to defend itself from a terrorist group, and does not give "special rights" to it, simply because they are Palestinian, or not as well equipt as Israel.
General, you're going off-topic again. My statement about the points only aimed, to show that gaza and westbank is still under occupation. We agreed that the Hamas is a terrororganisation, but i still have to say, that they're ready for a dialogue with the U.S. and are ready for piece if they get their borders back from 1978.
@Speedsky Of course their ready to get more land. History is an able teacher. Every time we have given the Palestinians land, they simply use it for more strategic positions for their mortars. We gave them 48% of all of Israel, and they STILL didn't accept it. Instead they waged total war.
I'm still waiting for the time the Palestinains said they would give us peace if we gave them the Gaza strip and the West Bank. Well, its theirs now, and the violence is escalating.
I didn't said more land, general, i said their borders BACK from 1978.
You do know why the fought begun. Because the independence which got promised by the brits for the arabs was not in charge, nor was it discussed. They would've agreed IF they had their independence. That's why the war started.
No general, gaza and westbank is still occupied, not under their hand.
@Speedsky Thats strange because the Arabs ended up with 70% of the land, and Israel ended up with 25% (And britan had 5%). Even though they had 70% of the land, they STILL felt threatend enough to attack the day-old state? Even with Israels current size, is it really a threat?
Israel has 8,000 square miles. The Arab Nations have 6,500,000 square miles. Are we REALLY that in your way? The Arab Nations are filthy rich of oil money, so dont even pretend thats a problem.
Im not talking about the arab nations, im talking about the former arabs in british mandate palestine, they did not became their promised independence, so you can't blame it on the arabs.
The rafah border crossing between the gaza strip and egypt was supoose to turned over to PA (palestinian authority). But in fact, israel continues to control the crossing to the extent that it may bar entry to "foreigners". Foreigners are palestinians who do not live in the occupied territories - or anyone who could be a "security risk". Basically everyone they like.
" Israel is at war with a country. Israel keeps out people who are not from the counrty, unless they have permission." Have you asked yourself WHY they do that? Perhaps to avoid people from smuggling in weapons and explosives? Perhaps Israel DOESN'T enjoy being attacked by terrorist, and is trying to hinder them?
Israel can decide who is a palestinian and who not. One of many points they control.
Not the PA, like you claim and say that they've got full authority. Weird General, you say that the palestinian Authority has full authority, but in the same breath you say that israel does this to keep out people. You need to decide general, either israel doesn't control gaza or israel keeps palestinians out of gaza, thus controls the population registry.
@Speedsky Israel controls Gaza's BORDERS, with regards to smuggling in illegal weapons, explosives, and drugs. The PA controls Gaza's GOVERNMENT, and that includes distribution of medicine and food, as well as creating jobs for its people. And Gaza's population is over 1.25 million. Its one of the most densley packed places in the world. I'm sure they can stand having a dozen or so people from entering. They've got enough problems as is.
They control, exact general thats correct. I never said the opposite. Israel DOES control, regardless for what reason. And how do you think they should distribute enough food and medicine, if the borders are closed/controlled trough the idf?
This argument does not affect my argument of israel controlling various sectors of gaza and westbank, thus occupation.
@Speedsky The borders are not closed. Humanitarian aid is still allowed through, but obviously it has to be searched first. Turkey regularly gives aid, and Israel gives it all to Gaza. The flotilla would have been allowed, if they had not refused inspection. And five out of the six ships DID allow inspections, and their supplies were given.
We allow food and medicine, thats not the issue. There is a nasty habit of explosives and drugs being smuggled in with the supplies.
General, they were told that they would've the opportunity to DELETE the goods in aschdod.
"We allow food and medicine" only after the incident it seems like, because before that the medical support was below average like the ICRC report claims.
@Speedsky Obviously there was a mistranslation. For at least three years before the flotilla, Israel has been giving goods to Gaza. Turkey knows this very well, as they also give their goods to Ashdod before it goes to Gaza.
And while we're on this topic, your people screamed into the radio "Go back to Aushwitz" and "Remember 9/11". Does that sound like peace activist to you?
General, you REALLY believe that? There was this peace activist, which also "spoke" trough the radio with an idf soldier. But the weird thing is, she was on the challenger 1 not on mavi marmara. Explain me this, and i'll believe your statement of my people screaming go back to auschwitz and 9/11.
It sounds like a ridicioulus zionist-joke to me.
watch?v=888UAkmOUeo&feature=related
The women you can hear at 0:17 was not even on mavi marmara as she self and her husband said.
@Speedsky That comment alone is ridiculous. You cant tell who someone is just by their accent. This isn't TV. In real life, accents can be muddy as hell.
Imagine, a German man, who went to a Belgian university, and was taught English by a British man. The accent would be impossible to tell where he came from.
Wild guess. If someone said something in English, with an American accnet, its PROBABLY because they learned it from an American.
Regardless of whether Israel occupies Gaza, or controls it borders, there is one inescapable fact.
Gaza is controlled by a TERRORIST GROUP. This terrorist group is responsible for over 9000 attacks on Israel's population.
Its the Israeli govenments DUTY to defend its people. The blockade, occupation, and Operations, are all for the sake of defending its people from Radicals who wish to kill innocent people. End of story.
Wish to kill innocent people? Is this the wish of the zionists or terrorists? Is THIS how the IDF is defending their own people? Cutting the supply of 1.25 million people? The ICRC reports that before the incident with the turk ship, where the idf defended their country by killing 9 turks, that the medical support was BELOW AVERAGE. After the incident it grew up a little bit. And don't come up with the 100 trucks, they only provide the needs which are on the list.
@Speedsky So you are getting angry that they provide the needs that the people ASKED for on the list?
I dont give a crap if the 9 people killed were Turkish. It wouldn't change anything if they were American, African, or Mexican. They are attempted murderers. Nationality should not grant people immunity. If I see someone stabbing a guy, I'm not going to say "Oh, he's Turkish, lets just leave him alone."
Im not getting angry at anything. I'm saying the 100 trucks ONLY provided the needs which were allowed on the list so about 100 products. The goods on the ship had a more spectrum of goods. 100 Products x 1kg Bread is not sufficient.
I wasn't pointing out the nationality general, i was pointing out the self defense of israel. You claim that israel defense themselves by MURDERING people? The crew had not attempted murder, they were DEFENDING their own ship against idf's piracy.
@Speedsky Piracy is the act of raiding a ship for monatary gain. Israel boarded the ships because the ship declared they were going to break the blockade, and headed straight to it, despite numerous warnings from the Israeli government to peacefully allow the IDF to search the cargo before it would be allowed in.
We tried diplomacy. We tried to avoid confrontation.
What would you have us do if you were in their position? What would you have done differently?
Peacefully, of course. There was nothing peacefully at the entrance of the IDF. The crew even waved the WHITE FLAG, means giving up. Instead the IDF came with a helicopter with guns, the execution they made and leadshots. There was nothing peacefull about it. Numerous warnings? The radio transmission? I'm going to give you an interesting vid on youtube to that. I would've recognized the WHITE FLAG and stop shooting at the ship, that's what i've would do. Instead of using smoke
@Speedsky The ship had people who were pro-Hamas, and said in speeches a week earlier that they wished to go to Gaza to become Shahids (martyrs). As soon as the helicopter came, the passengers tried to tie the rappeling line to the ship, in an attempt to crash it. And before the soldiers feet even touched the ship, they started beating him.
Does that sound like peace activist to you?
And they may have waved the white flag. But they didn't stop attacking. So it really doesn't mean anything.
So to become a martyr is a proof for you that people are pro-hamas? Then the whole army of turkey must also be pro hamas, according to your logic.
As i said, there was a previous video, where they waved their white flag. Do you think all of a sudden they try to beat IDF-Soldiers? What about the part with the smoke grenade? Or the part where they came with the ship shooting at everyone? You only mention one part of a single vid. They STOPPED when they waved the white flag.
@Speedsky Listen to my words. These people claimed to be peace activist. That means they do not fight, nor do they engage in violent situations.
But saying you are going somewhere to become a martyr for the Gazans is NOT something a peace activist says. Taking up knives and metal pipes and beating soldiers is NOT what a peace activist does.
These people pervert words to suit their cause, and ignore what anyone else says.
@Speedsky I'm trying to explain to you that there were in fact known pro-Hamas people there.
I'm not trying to blame the all the passengers. But the whole thing was staged. They knew Israel would be forced to act. They knew that the U.N. doesn't care about anything else, so they knew it would be noticed.
They started the riot, threw the smoke grenades, and brought knives with them.
They played the media, they played Israel, and they played everyone who believed them.
They waved the white flag first, THEN the IDF could've enter the ship without an escalation if they didn't acted like rambo starting to shoot at the ship at their arrival.
@Speedsky Oh yes, they acted like rambo. Thats why they did not bring any armor, brought paintball guns, and waited for two of their people to be stabbed, then thrown off a 30ft drop before they ASKED if they could use their emergency PISTOLS. I don't know what you know about guns, but pistols are not crowd control weapons. They are for self defence primarily.
Then I ask you this. Why were FIVE OF THE SIX SHIPS untouched by this violence, if we are so war-mongering and evil?
What i know about guns is, that the leadshot, which got found in the body of the 60 year old "Terrorist", comes from a shotgun cartridge, or the IDF took some western rifle. And a shotgun is somehow rambo like, no?
Did the IDF also shot while entering the other 5 ships? Did they also acted like rambo on the other ship? Did they provocated an escalation?
@Speedsky Leadshot is also used in slings. They found numerous slings aboard the ship. Who says that anyone has perfect aim? Maybe one of the crew shot it, and missed, hitting the old man.
The IDF did not shoot while entering ANY of the ships. They didn't even ask permission to use their pistols until two men were stabbed and beaten, and one was thrown off a 30ft. drop. (and they had their weapons stolen).
Thats not Rambo. Thats more consideration that they showed the IDF.
@Speedsky Provocation is attempting to charge through a blockade that has been there for years, refuse to allow anyone to see what you are carrying, then start a massive 600 person riot against 12 soldiers, then say the we are the ones at fault.
The blockade has met hundreds of ships. This is the first to result in deaths.
It is not the first in history though. Many blockades have resulted in deaths. Stop making it look like Israel is the first to ever kill someone.
The provocation which escalated the situation was made by the IDF, they shot at the ship at their arrival, while the activists waved a white flag. No sign of a fight was there. There were also no IDF Members on the ship, while they were shooting at it, because the crew still could broadcast. When they arrived it escalated.
@Speedsky The point of the article was to show you a neutral source that gave proof that Gaza was not occupied.
I think the U.N. is very biased. That much is true. I mean, look at it.
There are 57 Arab/Muslim states in the U.N. That alone makes them biased.
Not only that, but they continuosly ignore ALL terrorism and/or conflicts ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD, except for Israel. So yeah, I don't value their opinion as a neutral source.
But you do accept the U.N. sanctions against iran, right? If so, you got one f*cked up from of double standart. Since you doubt my source, can you tell me, if Benny Avni is an israeli? The writer of your one source?
@Speedsky As far as I can see, Benny Avni is American. He certainly lives in NY. I cannot find his birthplace.
Is it a double standard if 57 Arabs states side with an Arab state in a conflict? Yes. Is it a double standard if Israel and America bring up an Arab state on charges, and the 57 Arab states go against the Arab state? No.
The U.N. cannot claim to be neutral if they continue to condemn Israel for defending itself while other nations commit atroucious crimes.
That wasn't defending, that was multiple-murder of 9 peoples.
One with an execution. Do you also learn in the army, that an execution is self defense?
To Benny Avni, come on general you know exactly where this is leading to. You doubt my sources, altough they are neutral and know you claim you have one neutral source. Do you know Benny Avni's origin? Or even where the name comes frome?
Stay ontopic, im not here to discuss what the arab states are doing.
@Speedsky yes, I know where this is leading to. You are trying to prove that Benny Avni, a man who used quotes from the Geneva Convention (as well as other places) to prove Israel does not occupy Gaza, is a Zionist, and therefore I cannot use him as a source. But, to you, ANYONE who does not openly hate Israel is a zionist right? This man lives in New York. Just because he argues with what you say does not prove him wrong.
@Speedsky I honestly dont know if he is Jewish or not. And remember, my point was not what the author wrote. My point is what he quoted. He brought up an article of the Fourth Geneva Convention that proved me right. It had nothing to do with nationality, or religion. I did not say he was impartial.
@Speedsky Yes i do. He is not saying that Israel is perfect, godly, or always correct. He is saying Israel does not occupy Gaza. Thats ALL he is saying. Does that constitute "Brainwashed evil zionist"? If you think so, they YOU are the problem. YOU cannot accept that you might be wrong about something, and must force a justification, like saying "he is jewish, so he is obviously not neutral."
By that logic, you are Muslim, so you cannot defend any Muslim country. Does that make any sense?
@Speedsky Whatever man. I really don't care about that. The point I was trying to make was not what Benny Avni reported. It was what he quoted. Quotes dont change because of nationality (or at least, they shouldn't). I was trying to show you his quote he picked, from the Fourth Geneva Convention. Thats it. I barely even read the other parts. You asked for a source that proved Israel was not occupying, and I gave you a quote. End of story.
Ok let us chew this again, the points i mentioned earlier are functions of a government. Ask everyone around the world. So benny avni quoted that if israel does not have government function, then gaza is not in occupation.
BUT they DO controll government functions. Thus, gaza IS in occupation. Why do you think everyone talks about occupied gaza?
@Speedsky Why do you think everyone talks about un-occupied Gaza. For decades, people would not admit that Israel had the right to exist. There are STILL Arabic textbooks that don't have Israel on its maps. Just because people speak about an occupied Gaza, doesn't mean there is one.
New reporters spoke about a raid Israel did in Jenin, claiming that the reason the Arabs make bombs was the occupation.
At the time, Jenin hadn't been occupied for nine years. (even longer now).
Who do you mean with everyone? Zionists? Do you think a pkk-member would talk about iraq or south-kurdistan?
I gave you sources, the U.N. and the Human Rights Watch, you doubted the U.N. because there are more arabs.
These two major organisations talk about occupied gaza, and if you would look up the functions of the government which are controlled by israel, you too would see that gaza is occupied.
@Speedsky Oh, and this is off topic, but really? Your not Muslim? Thats wierd man. Turkey has like, the highest consentration of Muslims. Its like, 98% or something. Then what are you?
Could you also explain me these gunshots found in the body of the 19-year old Faruk?
Which by the way was ONLY an U.S. Citizen.
"An autopsy revealed he had suffered five gunshot wounds, to the nose, back, back of the head, left leg, and left ankle, at a distance of 45 centimeters."
@Speedsky So your denying that there were any anti-Semetic people aboard the ship? Perhaps they simply enhanced the audio tapes. That may seem stupid, but I would like to know exactly what was changed. And Israel HAS allowed an external probe to investigate.
btw, I don't know what you heard, but that was not an American accent on the tape. It was in English, yes, but that is because that was the common language between the two ships.
The one with 9/11 sounds like someone spoke with an american accent.
Oh here we go again, anti-semetic. Did anyone of them said that they want to wipe out israel?
The radio transmission sounds overall fake. The girl who spoke and said "we are allowed to enter gaza..." was not even on the mavi marmara. I sure have the right to doubt ANY IDF sources, because they always try to fake stuff. They faked a video and now the transmission. And could you answer to the video i sended?
@Speedsky Yeah, saying "go back to Aushwitz" is pretty anti-Semetic. And so what if the girl was not on the Mavi Marmara? They spoke to ALL the ships.
Five of the six ships allowed us to search their cargo, and went by peacefully. What, you think we just randomly picked a ship to attack? "I'm bored." Me too!" "Let's randomly attack people!" "Great idea!"
Is that what you think happened? We just decided to attack THESE innocent people, but not THOSE innocent people?
Why do they claim that it was a transmission from the IDF to MAVI MARMARA?
Exactly, made up lie.
As i said, did the IDF also aggressivly approached the other ships? I don't think so, the IDF provocated with their entrance. So it was obviously that the situation was going to escalate.
@Speedsky Oh yes, they "provocated" the entrance. How exaclty?
By asking the ships numerous times to stop? By sending them radio messages asking them to allow Israel to search the cargo before it could go through?
It offered them a peaceful solution. It would have been a win-win situation.
The IDF gets to search the cargo, and the Gazans still get the cargo.
But the passengers started a riot that left one soldier in a coma, and four in Intensive Care surgery.
You can't use the radio message as an argumentation, i sended you a video and i stated a fact where i can DOUBT it or i can say it is clearly fake by rewriting the facts and showing you the video again.
No peaceful solution was offered, the only offer they made was to arrive in aschdod and delete goods which were not on the "allowed-goods" list, which only contains 100 products. If israel forbidds products by land why should they allow it trough sea? Exactly, they offered to delete
@Speedsky So your argument is that, because Israel said they would not allow forbidden things, but allow everything else, they decided to riot and try to kill twelve people?
They knew these things were forbidden. They knew that Israel had to act if they tried to break the blockade.
I do not see a better way to hinder terrorist, than to block off their supply chain of weapons.
And btw, Israel supplies things like cement and other vital/illegal things.
Terrorist? The IDF acted like real TERRORISTS, they were the ones who tought to shoot first ask later. They were the ones who still were firing their guns while the people on the ship waved the white flag.
They supplie it only to major human organisations, without them, gaza would be destroyed.
The IDF also faked videos, funny how one "terrorist" just can walk trough objects.
They tried to defend themselves as they noticed that the shootings didn't stopped.
"he oldest victim was 60-year-old Ibrahim Bilgen, a Turkish politician, engineer and activist who was married with six children. He had been shot once in the right temple, once in the right side of his chest, once in the back and once in the hip."
I don't see ANY WOUND that would point out to an act of self defense.
The passengers started a riot because all of the goods had to arrive at gaza and because the idf provocated an escalation of the tense situation.
While we're at it, you said the IDF offered to inspect the goods and then they could've give it to the gazans, but what about the forbidden products? Were they allowed too?
If no, then my statement about the deletion is correct.
@Speedsky Nowadays, things like bottles of water are forbidden or airplanes.
So too, things that are used to create bomb vests, and mortars are forbidden in Gaza. Essentials like cement, Israel supplies, and personally oversees their usage. Don't forget the reason we have the blockade at all. It is to prevent weapons from entering an area that is controlled by terrorists.
If Hamas really cared about its people, it would spend money on jobs and houses, not rockets and bombs.
@Speedsky I've seen children around age eight with assault rifles. Just because he looks nice and calm, does not mean he could not have attacked the soldiers with a knife or metal bar. Do you want me to list the names of children who have died or lost limbs because of the Palestinians?
Suicide bombings in shopping malls, cafe's and bars cannot be justified. I dont care if Allah told you to, or if Osama told you to. These people need to be stopped. We try to be humane, but cannot always be.
@Speedsky Instead of looking at the wounds of the passangers, please examine the soldiers wounds. At least four of them were stabbed repeateadly, many were beaten with metal bars, and one was thrown off the deck, which is a 30ft. drop.
One of them is in a coma, two were in intesive care, and two required surgury. But this does not matter right? Because they are soldiers? It is okay if they die, or get hurt, because they denfend their country in a uniform?
As i mentioned before, they provocated, shooting while passengers wave white flags, this one leaded to an escalation of the tense situation. Either they were rookies or they did it on purpose. And not a single soldier died, they even got carried down and had a medicine treatment. They probably tought the best tactic is to scare the crew and enter, but that one was wrong.
Shooting while entering leaded to an escalation. You can see it for yourself on various videos.
@Speedsky If they wanted to scare the crew, they would have come in full armored, toting REAL machine guns, and been hostile. Instead, they came in with no armor, paintball guns, and emergency pistols.
They did not shoot while the passangers waved white flags. They did not even have time to say anything. Look at the video. The soldiers feet dont even touch the ground before they start hitting him with bars, and stabbing him.
Which is plain wrong, before the idf entered the crew had time to broadcast, they did that, so no IDF soldier was on the ship at that time, while you can hear them shooting.
They DID shoot while the passengers waved the white flag, there is also a video-proof, not some manipulated vid with adobe like the IDF did.
@Speedsky I was about to suggest that the audio footage was faked, but I'm going to try not to sink to such a low level.
One, the IDF knew about the flotilla a WEEK before it arrived. I'm sure they had time to send out a message or two before they boarded the ship.
Two, there were 600 passangers on the ship. If one waves the white flag, but the others continue beating and stabbing, then the white flag doesn't mean anything.
What do you think they should say a week before they were on sea?
Oh really? Do you only have the part in your mind where everything escalates or do you also saw the vids before the escalation? The aggressive entrance of the IDF which lead to this escalation, did you saw it?
Shooting while entering smoke grenades, stealing PDA's and other electronic gadgets. Killing 9 people.
@Speedsky Shooting paintball guns, after sending numerous radio transmissions to come in peacefully, is not "agressive". Smoke grenades are not "agressive". Taking electronic gadgets, since they have been used to harbor explosives in the past, is WISE not "agressive". We've been other this before. I don't like repeating myself.
Oh, now you excuse the stolen goods with, taking them because they have been used as triggers for explosives, of course. The IDF was greedy, that's why they stole electronic devices and also bought things for their private use with the credit cards of the victims.
Numerous radio transmissions? Can you prove me, that only the IDF and the crew of mavi marmara had a transmission? Can you surely say, that only these two were involved into that transmission?
@Speedsky The IDF spoke to the entire flotilla. It does not make sense to speak to only one ship, if you expect all of them to listen. They did not single out the Mavi M. because this was before they knew it the ship would riot.
They confiscated the electronics to search them for known contacts to terrorists, as well as to find triggers to explosives.
Try surviving a few genocides, see how laid back you are.
Im not saying anything otherwise, they spoke to all ships. So they can't say they warned mavi marmara, when there was NO specific transmission. I also doubt that the transmission came trough clear without any interference, YOU ALSO cannot say that the people on the mavi marmara said go back to auschwitz or 9/11, because as you stated they spoke to all of them.
Ok the one with electronic is not acceptable but logic, what about the credit cards? Where they also confiscated because
lies
djomercohen 4 months ago
Hahaha, wat een goeie actie, zo pak je die moslim apen wel terug
sealoevertje 6 months ago
call me morbid, but i find this video funny, jews found positive job for hamas, make peace with them by looking at each others, monkey face's, they get confused
crate718 7 months ago
בס"ד
At least you said that the incident was investigated. Too bad you do not show how Hamas used Palestinian civilians as human shields.
ori11494 7 months ago
this is bunch of bullshit just cus 2 guys are standing there and the film crew is screaming that they are human shields dosent mean anything! i dont see any proofs of danger to those 2 guys in this video, nor do i see proofs for said "investigation" by the idf
this video is propaganda bullshit!
yamov 8 months ago 6
@yamov AGREED, this is a pathetic excuse of used palestinians as human shields, and if the Palestinians did do as the Israeli soldier just tried to tell the cameraman, then they could've went to speak to the stone throwers, instead they stood in front of the jeep (with no sign of force by the IDF soldier sitting in THE BACK OF THE CAR!) and there could've been some simple conflict resolution, instead of this BS, which undermines the liberties that are in deed taken away from Palestinians
jakobeckert 8 months ago
rat like cowards
TRBNGR666 9 months ago
Guy would not have to put them in front of the vehicle if rocks were not being thrown at him. He made a simple solution to his problem, if you want to be dicks and throw rocks at him then your punishment will be hitting your own people. He is not the one being violent they are, so I see this a peaceful way of solving the problem. Now if they threw some rocks at him and he pulled out his gun and blasted them away then yes you guys might have a reason to be mad, but that didnt happen,so shut up.
maquoketastudiosjr 9 months ago
notice how the camra man doesnt allow him to even talk....the soldier is clearly saying that he told this people to move along but you morons still belive this arabic propoganda
GoldenTagachi 9 months ago
@GoldenTagachi why the fuck should we believe your RULE THE WORLD propaganda ??
goldenmsh 9 months ago
@goldenmsh @goldenmsh shut up, there is nothing he said that would possibly be propaganda to rule the world, so stop making stupid statements. If you would like to educate yourself there is a video I would like you to watch.
maquoketastudiosjr 9 months ago
Israeli fucking scum.
maju786 1 year ago
Hamas does it....why cant the Israelis?
bjlee77 1 year ago
@bjlee77 Both shouldn't do it. Just because they do it doesn't mean BLUFOR units can do it too. Are you really THAT stupid?
TheTymera 1 year ago
@TheTymera Thank you for your rational argument....it has really set me on the straight and narrow (please register sarcasm......now) . I was making a very short reference to previous comments which quite firmly push how evil the IDF for doing this to poor innocent palestinians....therefore deliberately ignoring the same tactics used by Hamas et al. This is either deliberate deceipt...or complete stupidity...which bracket would you like it to be under. :)
bjlee77 1 year ago
@TheTymera I agree...neither should be...I am arguing in a very short statement that action by one is very easily mimicked by another...and if it is your initial actions that are replicated...you are not in a position to complain about it. The issue I have is a blind disregard and choice by some not to recognise the actions of HAMAS while pointing the finger at the IDF...that to me IS stupidity...but thank you for asking the question...especillay liked the capitaliasation of THAT :)
bjlee77 1 year ago
@bjlee77 So you agree the IDF should be classed as a terrorist ogransitation just like HAMAS?
Tagemandbagem 1 year ago
@Tagemandbagem It appears that you like to draw a long...and innacurate bow....where in the comment above do you get this from? I am intrigued. Pointing out that in a conflict, you cannot complain when your adversary uses the same tactics as you doesnt indicate agreement with anything of the sort.
bjlee77 1 year ago
@bjlee77 You haven't answered the question.
Tagemandbagem 1 year ago
@Tagemandbagem I thought it was fairly clear in the above comment "doesnt indicate agreement with anything of the sort." ....so No I dont agree. And I notice that due to your apparent tunnel vision of the evil IDF, that you havent considered the major point which is that both sides are in a "dirty conflict" with both sides using dirty tactics. To be rational, one must assess the actions of both.
bjlee77 1 year ago
@bjlee77 do you have any proof that hamas uses civilians as human shields? Israeli use of human shield is apparent in the video!!!
jaycrazyman 11 months ago
@jaycrazyman ....that is a very valid point regarding this video clip...... however I think you mite find over the past 30 odd years that there is a fair bit of evidence...ranging from the placement of rocket sites, to the positoning of woman and children in the front of protests where weapons are present. If this is the ONLY footage you can recall since the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians has been occurring...you may not have noticed that. :)
bjlee77 11 months ago
@bjlee77 the issue is 'wars' are fought amongst equals in power, since the palestinians or hamas do not have that ability Israel is the bully, you blockade them which does not give them much room to maneuver so rocket sites in civilian population is unavoidable, I saw one video of palestinian civilians get in-between IDF and hamas but thats not using humans as shields when civilians volunteer, but you have still failed to provide evidence!!!
jaycrazyman 11 months ago
@jaycrazyman Ok...I am going to bow out from this conversation...it has become clear from every response that I have received....no matter how much I take the position that BOTH sides use the same tactics. I have hit the wall, i am sick of trying to have rational, unbiased conversations with individuals who are so blinded by their bullshit blame game, they cant see a rational point. Hence rational people are quiet while extremists are heard.
bjlee77 11 months ago
@bjlee77 you utter such bullshit, yes the blame game is wrong but this conflict is pretty one sided, you chat but can't back up your claims and you call me extreme and declare yourself a rational minded person. I asl you again prove your claims before you come out guns blazing!!!
jaycrazyman 11 months ago
@jaycrazyman Ok...one more, I just cant resist. I will put it in bullet points for you. 1) 30 years of conflict full of actions by BOTH sides is a tad hard to condense into this number of characters...feel free to research outside of YouTube..and outside of the search phrase 'evil IDF'. 2) Its not all about you "crazyman", I was making a generalised statement about extremist views being the loudest...you I believe, MAY just be ignorant..possibly not extreme.
bjlee77 10 months ago
@bjlee77 hahahah i think your ignorance is totally laughable, I think you are a zionist playing silly games, the conflict has been going on for over 60 years, the only reason your voice will never be heard by sane people is because there is no conviction in what you believe like the zionist state you, your belief your entire existence is based on deceit and lies!!!
You make the evil look saintly and the saintly look evil, well guess what the world is waking up!!!
jaycrazyman 10 months ago
@jaycrazyman Woohoo....man, did you just find your cliche guide book? :)
I have just checked..... every comment I have posted...I have referenced BOTH sides commiting crimes....Damit, by placing dual blame, I have failed in my EVIL plan as a Zionist Robot to take over the world media.....
Avoid the Meth..and enjoy searching the web for 911 conspiracies.
bjlee77 10 months ago
@bjlee77 the thing is both sides are not to blame until you can prove that they are both wrong since you cannot prove a case against palestinians you have no right to blame them, you cannot argue for israel because the video above proves israeli guilt therefore to make a case for the zionist you automatically claim that both sides are in the wrong, I don't see any rationality or logic in your arguments. When you can prove your point then reply until then good bye!!!
jaycrazyman 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
What is WRONG with us? When are we going to become independent of Israel?
How has such a insignificant excuse of a country with an addiction for atrocities managed to hijack our foreign policy? When are we going to grow a pair? This parasite,and make no mistake of it, Israel is America's tapeworm,habitually spies on us, has killed Americans, siphons billions of dollars from us, spits in our faces, has attacked our navy (remember the USS Liberty?) yet we're told that israel is our good friend!
CountNomis 1 year ago
This is proof? A blurry video showing an IDF soldier sitting in an ARMORED VEHICLE, on a laptop, telling some people he has custody of to give him privacy to talk to someone on his laptop. Where are the human shields? THEY ARE NOT IN COMBAT! They are not being "shielded" by these people! You want to see a REAL human shield video? Type this into your searchbar: "Hamas using children as human shield". Thats an armed soldier using a child so he can cross the street without getting sniped.
generalkohn 1 year ago
Nakba
akirafactor 1 year ago
Brave Israeli soldiers!
PeaceForMidEast 1 year ago
As of January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries.That's right 28! When Israeli hasbarat pigs talk about the 8,600 rockets, they never mention that those rockets actually killed only 28 people. Now you might say, 28 people dead is still a big deal. I agree, but it's also true that Israel's half-truths are only good for brainwashing Israelis. The whole world considers Israel a terrorist state, sponsored by the US.
sadigov 1 year ago
@sadigov 28 dead, yes, and hundreds wounded, millions of dollars in repairs, and massive psychological dmaage to those who arent dead. People can barely sleep or focus on anything in school because of the trauma they live with every day.
And wait, its OKAY to shoot 8000 rockets and mortars, AS LONG AS YOU DONT KILL TOO MANY PEOPLE? Is that what you are trying to say?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
What about the palestinians, which had also suffer when the IDF used white phosphorus?
And don't you think that there are MORE deads, MORE wounded and MORE psychologica damage, general? It is not ok to shoot 8000 rockets, but it is also not ok to AVENGE these 8000 rockets with MILLIONS of ammunition, more DEADS and WOUNDED and white phosphorus which is an awful weapon and forbidden to use against civilians.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky White Phospherous, when used as an obscurant is perfectly legal. Military experts agree that WP is one of the best obscurants because of its fast burn time and thick white smoke. And your REALLY getting angry that we tried to stop the mortar and rocket fire? What would YOU do that is so much better? Please, give me a better solution than what we did.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
When it is used as an obscurant, yes, but the IDF used them in the middle of crowded civilian areas.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky All of Gaza has a crowd of people. Its the most densley packed state in the world. And Hamas knows this. Thats why they purpously start attacks in heavily crowded areas. Thats also why those lovely uniforms they show magically disappear when they start fighting. The soldiers cannot tell the difference until they start shooting at them.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
There are many opportunities to fight in an uncrowded area, or cause less civilian death, even if it means to retreat and wait for an opportunity.
I'm wondering what the soldiers are doing anyway in gaza at the first place?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky I said Gaza as an example of a place controlled by Arabs, that continuosly slanders and demonizes the Jews/Israeli's/Zionists and Americans.
Soldiers do not just let a crowd riot, throwing moltov cocktails, and rocks, and just "wait for a better opportunity".
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
We discussed that one back in the other video, i would suggest you to read it.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Also general, what about my question?
"Now my question, why does Mossad support the PJAK? PJAK is a subgroup of the TERRORorganisation PKK. "
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky A subgroup, the same way that Hamas is a subgroup of the PLO? Then they too are terrorist. PJAK are not terrorist. Their targets are military, and political. That is not terrorism. And Israel has not stated any affiliations to PJAK. Unless, of course, you have top secret classifed information of the Mossads activites? Oh, and btw, they want rights for Kurds, in Iran.
Iran is one of the biggest violators of human rights. I think it is second only to China.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
They got filmed and the PJAK attacks civilian buildings near the borders of iran, THATS why mossad trains them. But they do know that the PJAK also gives these informations to the PKK. Mossad DOES train the PKK. They get supported by them trough new weapons, and please general, never ever say that the PJAK is not a terrorgroup. They clearly have intentions which resembles terrorist acts.
And doesn't Israel violate human rights CONSTANTLY in palestine?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky That "resemble" a terrorist group? The only group that does anything remotely similar is Hamas. Saying that since they are a subgroup of the PKK makes them terrorists, opens up the argument that since Hamas is a subgroup of the PLO, then they too are terrorists.
And no, Israel does not violate human rights, constantly or otherwise. Unless theres something I'm missing here? And dont bring up the blockade, you were fine with that until the flotilla occured.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
I was never fine with that, i just didn't discussed it on youtube.
The PJAK clearly is a militant organisation like the hamas, if the PJAK is not a terrororganisation, so is hamas not one. Do you Dennis Kucinich, general? He's the one who claims that the PJAK gets supported trough israel financially and gets supported with weapons. Israel fears Iran, that's why they use the PJAK, don't count them as terrorists etc. But if you really think that they
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky There have been dozens of blockades in the past, and the Israeli one is no different. They stopped hundreds of ships before the flotilla. Theirs is not the first blockade to result in deaths. What makes this one so special?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
This one is so special, because israel violates against the fourth geneva convention.
This blockade is illegal.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Thats curious because I have a section of the Geneva Convention that says that what they are doing is NOT collective punishment.
This has become a case of "my source says I'm right. Well, MY source says I'M right". We're even using the same source! I'm not going to even bother arguing with you if this keeps up.
You haven't given me any solutions that would work BETTER than what we have done.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Why should i come up with a solution? Im not representing israels foreign policy or israel at all.
We are using the same source, correct, but it is not about collective punishment, its about the restriction of medical support which is illegal according to the fourth geneva convention. You could say that this is a lie, but just look at the ICRC report.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky The ICRC report speaks about the distribution of medical support in Gaza. Israel GIVES medicine and humanitarian aid. HAMAS is responsible for distributing it. Instead, they sell it on the black market, for rockets and mortars.
Thats not israels fault. We give 100 trucks a day. The Gazan government (hamas) is the one responisble for it after that.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Hamas is not responsible for distributing it, ISRAEL is. Israel is the one who occupied it and still does. The blockade comes from israel not from hamas. That's why the fourth geneva convention is IN FORCE for israel, not for hamas. If Israel doesn't support gaza medically then they violate against the fourth geneva.
We also spoked on that 100 Trucks, these 100 Trucks only have a variety of 100 Products, which are overfilled in gaza.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky If Israel was occupying Gaza, why do we not have any soldiers there? Why dont we have any pull in the government? Why dont we, instead, simply kick Hamas out of the government, and do what we did before we left? When we occupied them, we built hospitals, gave them water and electricity, and jobs. We left, and Hamas has damned its own people in its quest to destroy Israel.
If we occupied Gaza, we would have just kicked Hamas out. Stop B.S.ing. Its unbecoming of you.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
B.S.? You're the one who spreads bullshit zionist propaganda.
But let me recite the points, that prove that gaza is under occupation.
Did you looked up wikipedia? Even they talk about an occupied area. Even the U.N. and the International Court of Justice speaks about occupation.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Wow. I'm not saying Gaza was NEVER occupied. And I'm not saying that Israel doesn't still occupy places. I'm saying that RIGHT NOW, Gaza has full autonomy. There are not Israeli troops in Gaza. What else is there, to occupy a place?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Look again at my points, you don't need soldiers down there to occupy a land. Israel still has controls over the said points.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky How many airports are in Gaza, that them controlling the skies is really a problem? Gaza gets billions of dollars in aid. The Arab leaders are filthy rich from oil money. Why are WE obligated to supply and support a people who murder our people simply because Allah told them to?
Israel does not occupy Gaza. Look at the West Bank. That place has one of highest life expectancies in the Middle East. THATS Israeli occupation. Not Gaza. Look at Gush Katif, before and after.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
You're not obligated, but israel is. Israel is the one who occupied gaza and westbank. Gaza and Westbank is under israels responsibility now.
General, you can't argue with me trough status or pictures wether an area is occupied or not. Even the U.N. says that gaza is occupied. Unless you proof me, or give me a non-jewish/zionist source that logically PROOFS that gaza is not under occupation, i will never discuss it here again.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky I have found a source that may intrest you. I hope you dont think it is Zionist simply because it helps me, but I shall let you decide.
nysun.com/foreign/o-word-is-gaza-occupied-territory/71079/
And here's a nice quote. "The 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which holds that occupation ends when the controlling power no longer "exercises the functions of government" over the territory in question."
So according to the Fourth Geneva Convention, Gaza is not occupied.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
So you are sure that the points i mentioned earlier, isn't the functions of a government, general?
Rethink.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
I gave you facts general, most of them contain functions of a government.
Gaza is occupied and it fits PERFECTLY with the fourth geneva convention.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky But the quote from the Fourth Geneva Convention CLEARLY defines an occupation, and Gaza does not fit that definition. Therefore, it does NOT perfectly fit your argument. Its actually the opposite of your argument. So, unless you misread my quote, the very document you brandished at me has proven you wrong.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
The very document? General are you serious? The U.N., the Human Rights Watch and the International Committee of the Red Cross say that gaza is OCCUPIED, and you believe at one source which came from a news magazine. You just need to think logic. Look at the points i mentioned earlier, this are functions of a government which israel CONTROLS.
1+1= your statement.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Israel controls no functions of the Gazan government. The Human Rights Watch ignores all violations, even the ones hundreds of times more grevious, simply because they obsess over Israel. In Africa, thousands are raped and murdered by terrorist each day. In Sri Lanka, the government tried to wipe out terrorism, by turning several cities into parking lots. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died. Did I hear ANYTHING the Human Rights Watch did about that?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
/asia/sri-lanka
put hrw(dot)org infront of it.
The points i mentioned earlier are functions of the gazan government, which are controlled by the IDF.
This means that the fourth geneva convention applies to israel.
Did you even read those functions?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Yes, that they control their airspace and harbors. But that is not government. Do you REALLY think the reason Gaza has such problems is because they cannot own their own airports? I think we've all seen what Radical Islamists can do with airplanes. I was in New York when 9/11 happened. And this is not an isolated incident. These plane hijakings have occured all over the world. London, Africa, Europe, Turkey, America, dozens more.
All victims of Radical Islamic terror.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Not only airspace and harbors general, i advise you to read my comment again.
Then you'll see the other government functions which israel controlls.
"Gaza has such problems is because they cannot own their own airports? I think we've all seen what Radical Islamists can do with airplanes."
What are you trying to say with this sentence? All Gazans are radical islamists, who only wait to jack a plane and crash it somewhere?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Given that Hamas is in total control of the government, and even you admit they are Radical Islamist, yes, I think that if they had freedom of the skies, they would use it as a terrorist weapon.
I never said all Gazans are terrorist. I do not believe that. I believe that the ones in control are terrorist. Hamas.
Every time we gave them land, they just used it for more strategic placement of their mortars. Why should we bother trying again, and just lose more of our land for nothing?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Of course they will use weaposn against israel, if they still abuse the ottoman law and build jewish settlements in west bank and lock up whole gaza, preventing newly goods to enter which are in deep need of the gaza population.
Imagine someone locks you up, wouldn't you resist at all?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Did the soldiers say they were going to lock them up? No. They first asked politely if they could inspect the goods. They warned them of the legal ramifications of breaking a blockade. After they refused to show what they were carrying, the IDF had no choice but to go on the ships.
They were afraid of explosives, so they intercepted the ship away from the shore. They brought no armor, and barely any weapons, because they were not planning to fight.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
They said, mavi marmara must enter the docks of aschdod to delete the forbidden goods.
Barely any weapons is a false statement.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Oh, and btw, the Arab leaders are making huge fusses over Israel building settlements ON LAND IT ALREADY OWNS. How do you justify that? And they say that building settlements is the reason suicide bombings happen. Do you agree? Are building settlements and suicide bombings equal in your mind?
You call us evil for defending our country, yet barely mention anything when a bomb goes off in a shopping mall or a nightclub.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
I never said that bombings excuse settlements, but it is a big factor which leads to these suicide bombers.
Im not talking about land it owns, look up the ottoman law and you know what im talking about. And i wouldn't say land that israel RIGHTFULLY owns. We already spoke about that, no agreements because the promised independence for the arabs was not made by the brits, and they just immigrated jews into palestine.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Here are the points. 1- Israel still controls the air and sea space of the gaza strip.
Not a single palestinian can operate at a sea/airport without israeli permission.
This limits the palestinian freedom of trade and travel.
2- Israel controls the joint gazastrip-west bank population registry, this means israel can decide who is a palestinian and who a foreigner. palestinians must seek israeli approval for every individual who wants to move to the west bank.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky
Here are the points. 1.Over 8000 rockets and mortars have been fired from Gaza into Israeli cities.
2. Hamas's charter call for the open genocide of all of Israel, and curses those who refuse to take sides. It says that any form of peace process is contrary to its beliefs.
3. Israel has complete right to defend itself from a terrorist group, and does not give "special rights" to it, simply because they are Palestinian, or not as well equipt as Israel.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
General, you're going off-topic again. My statement about the points only aimed, to show that gaza and westbank is still under occupation. We agreed that the Hamas is a terrororganisation, but i still have to say, that they're ready for a dialogue with the U.S. and are ready for piece if they get their borders back from 1978.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Of course their ready to get more land. History is an able teacher. Every time we have given the Palestinians land, they simply use it for more strategic positions for their mortars. We gave them 48% of all of Israel, and they STILL didn't accept it. Instead they waged total war.
I'm still waiting for the time the Palestinains said they would give us peace if we gave them the Gaza strip and the West Bank. Well, its theirs now, and the violence is escalating.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
I didn't said more land, general, i said their borders BACK from 1978.
You do know why the fought begun. Because the independence which got promised by the brits for the arabs was not in charge, nor was it discussed. They would've agreed IF they had their independence. That's why the war started.
No general, gaza and westbank is still occupied, not under their hand.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Thats strange because the Arabs ended up with 70% of the land, and Israel ended up with 25% (And britan had 5%). Even though they had 70% of the land, they STILL felt threatend enough to attack the day-old state? Even with Israels current size, is it really a threat?
Israel has 8,000 square miles. The Arab Nations have 6,500,000 square miles. Are we REALLY that in your way? The Arab Nations are filthy rich of oil money, so dont even pretend thats a problem.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Im not talking about the arab nations, im talking about the former arabs in british mandate palestine, they did not became their promised independence, so you can't blame it on the arabs.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
The rafah border crossing between the gaza strip and egypt was supoose to turned over to PA (palestinian authority). But in fact, israel continues to control the crossing to the extent that it may bar entry to "foreigners". Foreigners are palestinians who do not live in the occupied territories - or anyone who could be a "security risk". Basically everyone they like.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky So wait. Your claim is this.
" Israel is at war with a country. Israel keeps out people who are not from the counrty, unless they have permission." Have you asked yourself WHY they do that? Perhaps to avoid people from smuggling in weapons and explosives? Perhaps Israel DOESN'T enjoy being attacked by terrorist, and is trying to hinder them?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Israel can decide who is a palestinian and who not. One of many points they control.
Not the PA, like you claim and say that they've got full authority. Weird General, you say that the palestinian Authority has full authority, but in the same breath you say that israel does this to keep out people. You need to decide general, either israel doesn't control gaza or israel keeps palestinians out of gaza, thus controls the population registry.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Israel controls Gaza's BORDERS, with regards to smuggling in illegal weapons, explosives, and drugs. The PA controls Gaza's GOVERNMENT, and that includes distribution of medicine and food, as well as creating jobs for its people. And Gaza's population is over 1.25 million. Its one of the most densley packed places in the world. I'm sure they can stand having a dozen or so people from entering. They've got enough problems as is.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
They control, exact general thats correct. I never said the opposite. Israel DOES control, regardless for what reason. And how do you think they should distribute enough food and medicine, if the borders are closed/controlled trough the idf?
This argument does not affect my argument of israel controlling various sectors of gaza and westbank, thus occupation.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky The borders are not closed. Humanitarian aid is still allowed through, but obviously it has to be searched first. Turkey regularly gives aid, and Israel gives it all to Gaza. The flotilla would have been allowed, if they had not refused inspection. And five out of the six ships DID allow inspections, and their supplies were given.
We allow food and medicine, thats not the issue. There is a nasty habit of explosives and drugs being smuggled in with the supplies.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
General, they were told that they would've the opportunity to DELETE the goods in aschdod.
"We allow food and medicine" only after the incident it seems like, because before that the medical support was below average like the ICRC report claims.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Obviously there was a mistranslation. For at least three years before the flotilla, Israel has been giving goods to Gaza. Turkey knows this very well, as they also give their goods to Ashdod before it goes to Gaza.
And while we're on this topic, your people screamed into the radio "Go back to Aushwitz" and "Remember 9/11". Does that sound like peace activist to you?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
General, you REALLY believe that? There was this peace activist, which also "spoke" trough the radio with an idf soldier. But the weird thing is, she was on the challenger 1 not on mavi marmara. Explain me this, and i'll believe your statement of my people screaming go back to auschwitz and 9/11.
It sounds like a ridicioulus zionist-joke to me.
watch?v=888UAkmOUeo&feature=related
The women you can hear at 0:17 was not even on mavi marmara as she self and her husband said.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
So why should i believe that my people say go back to auschwitz and 9/11 with an american accent?
The whole radio transmission sounds to me like it was made up.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky That comment alone is ridiculous. You cant tell who someone is just by their accent. This isn't TV. In real life, accents can be muddy as hell.
Imagine, a German man, who went to a Belgian university, and was taught English by a British man. The accent would be impossible to tell where he came from.
Wild guess. If someone said something in English, with an American accnet, its PROBABLY because they learned it from an American.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
OK forget about the accent, what about the fake transmission?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky And one more thing.
Regardless of whether Israel occupies Gaza, or controls it borders, there is one inescapable fact.
Gaza is controlled by a TERRORIST GROUP. This terrorist group is responsible for over 9000 attacks on Israel's population.
Its the Israeli govenments DUTY to defend its people. The blockade, occupation, and Operations, are all for the sake of defending its people from Radicals who wish to kill innocent people. End of story.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Wish to kill innocent people? Is this the wish of the zionists or terrorists? Is THIS how the IDF is defending their own people? Cutting the supply of 1.25 million people? The ICRC reports that before the incident with the turk ship, where the idf defended their country by killing 9 turks, that the medical support was BELOW AVERAGE. After the incident it grew up a little bit. And don't come up with the 100 trucks, they only provide the needs which are on the list.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky So you are getting angry that they provide the needs that the people ASKED for on the list?
I dont give a crap if the 9 people killed were Turkish. It wouldn't change anything if they were American, African, or Mexican. They are attempted murderers. Nationality should not grant people immunity. If I see someone stabbing a guy, I'm not going to say "Oh, he's Turkish, lets just leave him alone."
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Im not getting angry at anything. I'm saying the 100 trucks ONLY provided the needs which were allowed on the list so about 100 products. The goods on the ship had a more spectrum of goods. 100 Products x 1kg Bread is not sufficient.
I wasn't pointing out the nationality general, i was pointing out the self defense of israel. You claim that israel defense themselves by MURDERING people? The crew had not attempted murder, they were DEFENDING their own ship against idf's piracy.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Piracy is the act of raiding a ship for monatary gain. Israel boarded the ships because the ship declared they were going to break the blockade, and headed straight to it, despite numerous warnings from the Israeli government to peacefully allow the IDF to search the cargo before it would be allowed in.
We tried diplomacy. We tried to avoid confrontation.
What would you have us do if you were in their position? What would you have done differently?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Peacefully, of course. There was nothing peacefully at the entrance of the IDF. The crew even waved the WHITE FLAG, means giving up. Instead the IDF came with a helicopter with guns, the execution they made and leadshots. There was nothing peacefull about it. Numerous warnings? The radio transmission? I'm going to give you an interesting vid on youtube to that. I would've recognized the WHITE FLAG and stop shooting at the ship, that's what i've would do. Instead of using smoke
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky The ship had people who were pro-Hamas, and said in speeches a week earlier that they wished to go to Gaza to become Shahids (martyrs). As soon as the helicopter came, the passengers tried to tie the rappeling line to the ship, in an attempt to crash it. And before the soldiers feet even touched the ship, they started beating him.
Does that sound like peace activist to you?
And they may have waved the white flag. But they didn't stop attacking. So it really doesn't mean anything.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
So to become a martyr is a proof for you that people are pro-hamas? Then the whole army of turkey must also be pro hamas, according to your logic.
As i said, there was a previous video, where they waved their white flag. Do you think all of a sudden they try to beat IDF-Soldiers? What about the part with the smoke grenade? Or the part where they came with the ship shooting at everyone? You only mention one part of a single vid. They STOPPED when they waved the white flag.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Listen to my words. These people claimed to be peace activist. That means they do not fight, nor do they engage in violent situations.
But saying you are going somewhere to become a martyr for the Gazans is NOT something a peace activist says. Taking up knives and metal pipes and beating soldiers is NOT what a peace activist does.
These people pervert words to suit their cause, and ignore what anyone else says.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Peace activist do have the right to defend themselves, and just because they said martyr doesn't proof ANYTHING.
As i said, the whole turkish army also want to become martyrs, they fight fanaticly but are not religious fanatics.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky I'm trying to explain to you that there were in fact known pro-Hamas people there.
I'm not trying to blame the all the passengers. But the whole thing was staged. They knew Israel would be forced to act. They knew that the U.N. doesn't care about anything else, so they knew it would be noticed.
They started the riot, threw the smoke grenades, and brought knives with them.
They played the media, they played Israel, and they played everyone who believed them.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Oh and they made israel to kill 9 people.
Of course general.
They waved the white flag first, THEN the IDF could've enter the ship without an escalation if they didn't acted like rambo starting to shoot at the ship at their arrival.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
After the IDF tought that they must act like rambo, the situation escalated and the crew defended himself.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Oh yes, they acted like rambo. Thats why they did not bring any armor, brought paintball guns, and waited for two of their people to be stabbed, then thrown off a 30ft drop before they ASKED if they could use their emergency PISTOLS. I don't know what you know about guns, but pistols are not crowd control weapons. They are for self defence primarily.
Then I ask you this. Why were FIVE OF THE SIX SHIPS untouched by this violence, if we are so war-mongering and evil?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
What i know about guns is, that the leadshot, which got found in the body of the 60 year old "Terrorist", comes from a shotgun cartridge, or the IDF took some western rifle. And a shotgun is somehow rambo like, no?
Did the IDF also shot while entering the other 5 ships? Did they also acted like rambo on the other ship? Did they provocated an escalation?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Leadshot is also used in slings. They found numerous slings aboard the ship. Who says that anyone has perfect aim? Maybe one of the crew shot it, and missed, hitting the old man.
The IDF did not shoot while entering ANY of the ships. They didn't even ask permission to use their pistols until two men were stabbed and beaten, and one was thrown off a 30ft. drop. (and they had their weapons stolen).
Thats not Rambo. Thats more consideration that they showed the IDF.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
With a leadshot trough the head, trough the skull?
Look up the autopsy.
Look up the vids, you can clearly see the man talking to the camera while you're hearing shots, that is provocation.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Provocation is attempting to charge through a blockade that has been there for years, refuse to allow anyone to see what you are carrying, then start a massive 600 person riot against 12 soldiers, then say the we are the ones at fault.
The blockade has met hundreds of ships. This is the first to result in deaths.
It is not the first in history though. Many blockades have resulted in deaths. Stop making it look like Israel is the first to ever kill someone.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
The provocation which escalated the situation was made by the IDF, they shot at the ship at their arrival, while the activists waved a white flag. No sign of a fight was there. There were also no IDF Members on the ship, while they were shooting at it, because the crew still could broadcast. When they arrived it escalated.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Smoke grenades, wielding wild with my gun and faking shit up.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Do you also share the same opinion as the commenters in your source?
That the U.N. doesn't count/is not valueable? Or international law? or U.N. Human rights?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky The point of the article was to show you a neutral source that gave proof that Gaza was not occupied.
I think the U.N. is very biased. That much is true. I mean, look at it.
There are 57 Arab/Muslim states in the U.N. That alone makes them biased.
Not only that, but they continuosly ignore ALL terrorism and/or conflicts ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD, except for Israel. So yeah, I don't value their opinion as a neutral source.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Of course genera, everyones against israel.
The ICRC, Human Rights Watch, the U.N.
But you do accept the U.N. sanctions against iran, right? If so, you got one f*cked up from of double standart. Since you doubt my source, can you tell me, if Benny Avni is an israeli? The writer of your one source?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky As far as I can see, Benny Avni is American. He certainly lives in NY. I cannot find his birthplace.
Is it a double standard if 57 Arabs states side with an Arab state in a conflict? Yes. Is it a double standard if Israel and America bring up an Arab state on charges, and the 57 Arab states go against the Arab state? No.
The U.N. cannot claim to be neutral if they continue to condemn Israel for defending itself while other nations commit atroucious crimes.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
That wasn't defending, that was multiple-murder of 9 peoples.
One with an execution. Do you also learn in the army, that an execution is self defense?
To Benny Avni, come on general you know exactly where this is leading to. You doubt my sources, altough they are neutral and know you claim you have one neutral source. Do you know Benny Avni's origin? Or even where the name comes frome?
Stay ontopic, im not here to discuss what the arab states are doing.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky yes, I know where this is leading to. You are trying to prove that Benny Avni, a man who used quotes from the Geneva Convention (as well as other places) to prove Israel does not occupy Gaza, is a Zionist, and therefore I cannot use him as a source. But, to you, ANYONE who does not openly hate Israel is a zionist right? This man lives in New York. Just because he argues with what you say does not prove him wrong.
In America, we believe in freedom of speech.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Well, you doubted the source of the U.N. because there are more arabs or something.
In clear words: You doubt the U.N. because there are arabs.
In clear words: I doubt your source because the reporter is a jew/zionist.
Altough my source should be more neutral then the nysun written by a jew.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky I said that the U.N. cannot claim to be impartial if the majority of its members are almost automatically going to side with their people.
Look at you. You made such a big fuss about the flotilla, because Turkish people died. Being Turkish, that made you side with them.
Imagine 57 states of that, with most of them oppressing their women and children into their sick laws.
Im talking about Radical Islam. I have nothing against the average Muslim. Don't try to paint me a racist.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Im not making only fuss about my compatriots, i'm also criticizing israels foreign policy, mainly gaza policy.
I'm not trying to paint you as a racist, you doubted my source because ther are too many arabs and i doubt your source because it is written by a jew.
What do you expect? Let you doubt my source because of nationality and accept yours while the same issue is brought up?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky I honestly dont know if he is Jewish or not. And remember, my point was not what the author wrote. My point is what he quoted. He brought up an article of the Fourth Geneva Convention that proved me right. It had nothing to do with nationality, or religion. I did not say he was impartial.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
You're beeing ignorant here general, again:
The functions i mentioned in a previous comment are functions of a government.
The Author said israel does not controll government functions, but the points i mentioned earlier ARE functions of the government.
So?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
So, the U.N. is not neutral and the Human Rights Watch.
And you think that one report in the sun, which got wrote by benny avni, is neutral?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Yes i do. He is not saying that Israel is perfect, godly, or always correct. He is saying Israel does not occupy Gaza. Thats ALL he is saying. Does that constitute "Brainwashed evil zionist"? If you think so, they YOU are the problem. YOU cannot accept that you might be wrong about something, and must force a justification, like saying "he is jewish, so he is obviously not neutral."
By that logic, you are Muslim, so you cannot defend any Muslim country. Does that make any sense?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
I'm not a muslim.
You doubted one source of mine because there were arabs involved in it, i doubt a source of yours because there is a jew involved.
I'm not forced to accept your source when you don't accept mine because of nationality or religion or ethics.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Whatever man. I really don't care about that. The point I was trying to make was not what Benny Avni reported. It was what he quoted. Quotes dont change because of nationality (or at least, they shouldn't). I was trying to show you his quote he picked, from the Fourth Geneva Convention. Thats it. I barely even read the other parts. You asked for a source that proved Israel was not occupying, and I gave you a quote. End of story.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Ok let us chew this again, the points i mentioned earlier are functions of a government. Ask everyone around the world. So benny avni quoted that if israel does not have government function, then gaza is not in occupation.
BUT they DO controll government functions. Thus, gaza IS in occupation. Why do you think everyone talks about occupied gaza?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Why do you think everyone talks about un-occupied Gaza. For decades, people would not admit that Israel had the right to exist. There are STILL Arabic textbooks that don't have Israel on its maps. Just because people speak about an occupied Gaza, doesn't mean there is one.
New reporters spoke about a raid Israel did in Jenin, claiming that the reason the Arabs make bombs was the occupation.
At the time, Jenin hadn't been occupied for nine years. (even longer now).
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Who do you mean with everyone? Zionists? Do you think a pkk-member would talk about iraq or south-kurdistan?
I gave you sources, the U.N. and the Human Rights Watch, you doubted the U.N. because there are more arabs.
These two major organisations talk about occupied gaza, and if you would look up the functions of the government which are controlled by israel, you too would see that gaza is occupied.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Oh, and this is off topic, but really? Your not Muslim? Thats wierd man. Turkey has like, the highest consentration of Muslims. Its like, 98% or something. Then what are you?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Agnostic.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
You probably forgout about the laïcité in turkey. Not many countrys have laïcité in their system.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky America and Israel both have laïcité though.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Really? America and Israel?
Are you sure general?
Sidenote: Every dollar says "In God we Trust".
And Israel is basically made by religion.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Could you also explain me these gunshots found in the body of the 19-year old Faruk?
Which by the way was ONLY an U.S. Citizen.
"An autopsy revealed he had suffered five gunshot wounds, to the nose, back, back of the head, left leg, and left ankle, at a distance of 45 centimeters."
Is this how the IDF defend themselves?
By executing people?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
watch?v=zFMfaI_A8lk
For your argument with the transmission.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky So your denying that there were any anti-Semetic people aboard the ship? Perhaps they simply enhanced the audio tapes. That may seem stupid, but I would like to know exactly what was changed. And Israel HAS allowed an external probe to investigate.
btw, I don't know what you heard, but that was not an American accent on the tape. It was in English, yes, but that is because that was the common language between the two ships.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
The one with 9/11 sounds like someone spoke with an american accent.
Oh here we go again, anti-semetic. Did anyone of them said that they want to wipe out israel?
The radio transmission sounds overall fake. The girl who spoke and said "we are allowed to enter gaza..." was not even on the mavi marmara. I sure have the right to doubt ANY IDF sources, because they always try to fake stuff. They faked a video and now the transmission. And could you answer to the video i sended?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Yeah, saying "go back to Aushwitz" is pretty anti-Semetic. And so what if the girl was not on the Mavi Marmara? They spoke to ALL the ships.
Five of the six ships allowed us to search their cargo, and went by peacefully. What, you think we just randomly picked a ship to attack? "I'm bored." Me too!" "Let's randomly attack people!" "Great idea!"
Is that what you think happened? We just decided to attack THESE innocent people, but not THOSE innocent people?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Why do they claim that it was a transmission from the IDF to MAVI MARMARA?
Exactly, made up lie.
As i said, did the IDF also aggressivly approached the other ships? I don't think so, the IDF provocated with their entrance. So it was obviously that the situation was going to escalate.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Oh yes, they "provocated" the entrance. How exaclty?
By asking the ships numerous times to stop? By sending them radio messages asking them to allow Israel to search the cargo before it could go through?
It offered them a peaceful solution. It would have been a win-win situation.
The IDF gets to search the cargo, and the Gazans still get the cargo.
But the passengers started a riot that left one soldier in a coma, and four in Intensive Care surgery.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
You can't use the radio message as an argumentation, i sended you a video and i stated a fact where i can DOUBT it or i can say it is clearly fake by rewriting the facts and showing you the video again.
No peaceful solution was offered, the only offer they made was to arrive in aschdod and delete goods which were not on the "allowed-goods" list, which only contains 100 products. If israel forbidds products by land why should they allow it trough sea? Exactly, they offered to delete
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky So your argument is that, because Israel said they would not allow forbidden things, but allow everything else, they decided to riot and try to kill twelve people?
They knew these things were forbidden. They knew that Israel had to act if they tried to break the blockade.
I do not see a better way to hinder terrorist, than to block off their supply chain of weapons.
And btw, Israel supplies things like cement and other vital/illegal things.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Terrorist? The IDF acted like real TERRORISTS, they were the ones who tought to shoot first ask later. They were the ones who still were firing their guns while the people on the ship waved the white flag.
They supplie it only to major human organisations, without them, gaza would be destroyed.
The IDF also faked videos, funny how one "terrorist" just can walk trough objects.
They tried to defend themselves as they noticed that the shootings didn't stopped.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
"he oldest victim was 60-year-old Ibrahim Bilgen, a Turkish politician, engineer and activist who was married with six children. He had been shot once in the right temple, once in the right side of his chest, once in the back and once in the hip."
I don't see ANY WOUND that would point out to an act of self defense.
These are critical wounds.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
You speak about terrorists, were any firearms found on the ship?
Yes or No, i don't want to read something about planes or how everyone is anti-semitic.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
The passengers started a riot because all of the goods had to arrive at gaza and because the idf provocated an escalation of the tense situation.
While we're at it, you said the IDF offered to inspect the goods and then they could've give it to the gazans, but what about the forbidden products? Were they allowed too?
If no, then my statement about the deletion is correct.
If yes, i want to see a source for that.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Nowadays, things like bottles of water are forbidden or airplanes.
So too, things that are used to create bomb vests, and mortars are forbidden in Gaza. Essentials like cement, Israel supplies, and personally oversees their usage. Don't forget the reason we have the blockade at all. It is to prevent weapons from entering an area that is controlled by terrorists.
If Hamas really cared about its people, it would spend money on jobs and houses, not rockets and bombs.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Atleast the Hamas doesn't block off about 1.5 Million of people from essential goods.
The blockade doesn't damage the hamas, they sell goods overpriced.
They get more money and also can buy weapons.
Israel supports the Hamas trough their blockade, i don't know if they are too blind to see that.
Why are you always mention airplanes or aircrafts? I never heard of an airplane that executes people, raids ships or occupies a land.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Would you please look this up in wikipedia and tell me if he looks like a radical islamist?
Does he look like osama bin laden in your opinion?
Furkan_Doğan
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky I've seen children around age eight with assault rifles. Just because he looks nice and calm, does not mean he could not have attacked the soldiers with a knife or metal bar. Do you want me to list the names of children who have died or lost limbs because of the Palestinians?
Suicide bombings in shopping malls, cafe's and bars cannot be justified. I dont care if Allah told you to, or if Osama told you to. These people need to be stopped. We try to be humane, but cannot always be.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
I didn't see any of that trying, we're talking about the incident.
I never said i support these terrorists, but the 9 deatsh were not ONE arab who could be possibly a hamas supporter.
And would you explain me the wounds? What logical act do you read off these wounds? Still self defense?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Instead of looking at the wounds of the passangers, please examine the soldiers wounds. At least four of them were stabbed repeateadly, many were beaten with metal bars, and one was thrown off the deck, which is a 30ft. drop.
One of them is in a coma, two were in intesive care, and two required surgury. But this does not matter right? Because they are soldiers? It is okay if they die, or get hurt, because they denfend their country in a uniform?
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
As i mentioned before, they provocated, shooting while passengers wave white flags, this one leaded to an escalation of the tense situation. Either they were rookies or they did it on purpose. And not a single soldier died, they even got carried down and had a medicine treatment. They probably tought the best tactic is to scare the crew and enter, but that one was wrong.
Shooting while entering leaded to an escalation. You can see it for yourself on various videos.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky If they wanted to scare the crew, they would have come in full armored, toting REAL machine guns, and been hostile. Instead, they came in with no armor, paintball guns, and emergency pistols.
They did not shoot while the passangers waved white flags. They did not even have time to say anything. Look at the video. The soldiers feet dont even touch the ground before they start hitting him with bars, and stabbing him.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Which is plain wrong, before the idf entered the crew had time to broadcast, they did that, so no IDF soldier was on the ship at that time, while you can hear them shooting.
They DID shoot while the passengers waved the white flag, there is also a video-proof, not some manipulated vid with adobe like the IDF did.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky I was about to suggest that the audio footage was faked, but I'm going to try not to sink to such a low level.
One, the IDF knew about the flotilla a WEEK before it arrived. I'm sure they had time to send out a message or two before they boarded the ship.
Two, there were 600 passangers on the ship. If one waves the white flag, but the others continue beating and stabbing, then the white flag doesn't mean anything.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
What do you think they should say a week before they were on sea?
Oh really? Do you only have the part in your mind where everything escalates or do you also saw the vids before the escalation? The aggressive entrance of the IDF which lead to this escalation, did you saw it?
Shooting while entering smoke grenades, stealing PDA's and other electronic gadgets. Killing 9 people.
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky Shooting paintball guns, after sending numerous radio transmissions to come in peacefully, is not "agressive". Smoke grenades are not "agressive". Taking electronic gadgets, since they have been used to harbor explosives in the past, is WISE not "agressive". We've been other this before. I don't like repeating myself.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Oh, now you excuse the stolen goods with, taking them because they have been used as triggers for explosives, of course. The IDF was greedy, that's why they stole electronic devices and also bought things for their private use with the credit cards of the victims.
Numerous radio transmissions? Can you prove me, that only the IDF and the crew of mavi marmara had a transmission? Can you surely say, that only these two were involved into that transmission?
Speedsky 1 year ago
@Speedsky The IDF spoke to the entire flotilla. It does not make sense to speak to only one ship, if you expect all of them to listen. They did not single out the Mavi M. because this was before they knew it the ship would riot.
They confiscated the electronics to search them for known contacts to terrorists, as well as to find triggers to explosives.
Try surviving a few genocides, see how laid back you are.
generalkohn 1 year ago
@generalkohn
Im not saying anything otherwise, they spoke to all ships. So they can't say they warned mavi marmara, when there was NO specific transmission. I also doubt that the transmission came trough clear without any interference, YOU ALSO cannot say that the people on the mavi marmara said go back to auschwitz or 9/11, because as you stated they spoke to all of them.
Ok the one with electronic is not acceptable but logic, what about the credit cards? Where they also confiscated because
Speedsky 1 year ago
@generalkohn
The terrorist could use it as a trigger? And why did the IDF bought goods for personal use? Like an i-pod headset?
Speedsky 1 year ago