Calvinists always begin with God's sovereignty. They never mention his love. When they do they always mention it in reference to the so-called elect, simply because God never loved the so-called non-elect.
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY you keep twisting my words... jesus christ is the only way for salvation...and the ot saints did go to abrahams bossom... but the captives were regular believing people.and that's it...
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY you avoided my question cause you know if you would had said yes i rather be in abrahams bossm , is cause you know that it is a place of comfort no torment.. for the last time the captives that jesus christ set free (from the grasp of death n sin) were the regular people that were believers, matt 27: 52-54 peace.
@Erap1muzik I answered your question. You have yet to prove 1. That abrahams bosom is heaven. 2. That people in the o.t were born again. The fact is when Jesus set the captives free they were walking around, they were no longer in the bosom.
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY ok so he went to his own place! jesus christ said i will go and prepare a place for you...john:14 speaking so we could see that abrahams bossom is in heaven. the problem is that you don't know who are the captives. is not the old testament prophets, it's the regular believing peoples. all of the ot prophets went to heaven look at gen:5 24 enoch went to heaven. so did elijah 2kings2:11..you didn't notice that i just gave you a revelation cause u didn't know
Enoch did not die, not that he will not die everyone will die. Enoch is a totally differennt context we are talking about what happens when someone dies. Why would Jesus have to prepare a place when abrahams bosom was already prepared? Abrahams bosom was to be done away with
@Erap1muzik what are you talking about. You still have not proved yyour presuppositions. I am able to show you my theology from the scriptures, how bout you?
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY so i just proved it to you with your own arguments against me and you brang up the captives not knowing who they were and abrahams bossom and i just revealed the truth....so i'm gonna be out of here..see ya peace.
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY how's it going??? later when i get home i'm gonna register to your site cause i want to look into:Ecclesiology, Harmotology, Polemics, Eschatology, Soteriology and Soteriology.
you don't seem to understand me i said before that i'm a christian calvinist. i believe that God chooses his people for his own glory.and about the lord jesus christ setting the captives free i didn't say he had to go to heaven!!! releasing the captives means free from the bondage of death into eternal life.but you didn't answer my questions would you rather be here in this world or in abrahams bossom???
@Erap1muzik You said abrahams bosom was heaven. So if He set the captives free in abrahams bosom, what you are saying is He set the captives free in heaven. There is no abrahams bosom anymore Christ died on the cross, absent from the body is present with the Lord.
how's was lazarus raised!!!! "first regeneration had to take place to hear the command... then after being regenerated then he heard christ's voice and came out of the grave.
@Erap1muzik Lazarus was raised by Resurrection. You do now that resurrection, and regeneration are two different things right? Was Lazarus given a new heart in his resurrection?
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY yes there's a difference, but lazarus was a believer so he was regenareted already...so lazarus had to be raised first then he heard the command...like us we are dead in our sins so how could a dead men come to christ!!! unless he regenarates our heart first so then we could belive the gospel.
@Erap1muzik Actually you are incorrect. No one prior to Christs' passion was regenerated. It is because of His death we are born again, and can enter the kingdom of heaven (John 3:7) . Prior to Jesus' death the o.t. saints awaited Jesus in Abrahams bosom. Our regeneration is our new life in Christ (Gal 2:20) this comes via His passion. Regeneration is Christ in us, we are united to him through his death Col 2:11–12
@Erap1muzik There is also a difference between physical death, and spiritual death. If one is spiritually dead the same way he is physically dead, then how can he even rebel against God. Dead men can't rebel... So if they cannot believe, they cannot rebel. That is if I take your understanding. It seems that you are mixing terms (physical / spiritual) (resurrection / regeneration)
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY of course spirtually dead is in sin...so no one can't come to christ unless he opens there heart first, so then they could believe, then they'll have true life in christ...lazarus was physically dead. you don't seem to get my points i'm a calvinist.
@Erap1muzik I understand your point. But God opening someones hearts so they may understand is not regeneration. What you are describing is enlightenment, or illumination. This comes through calling / drawing. Where you are making the mistake is calling illumination, regeneration. Opening the heart, and giving them a new heart is two different things. I can open a door without replacing it.
both opening the heart, and replacing the heart is necessary. Regeneration is not needed for someone to repent, and believe. God calling the individual through the gospel, and the Spirit it what is needed to give the person the ability that is lacking. Regeneration is what happens when we are united to Christ.Early reformed theology teaches that regeneration comes through union, and we are united to Christ via faith, and we are enable to believe via illumination / drawing.
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY no is very cleared what i said: but let me make this point when God gives a person a new heart is already opened to know him...when a baby is in the womb does it know or see the parents??? of course not!!! not until it's born then he or she starts to know n grow to love the parents, that's how we are first God plants the seed of life (to the elect only) we receive a new heart of flesh so then we are born again then we know God and believe then repent.
@Erap1muzik My friend I believe you are missing my point. No old Testament saint was born again, this is why they could not go to heaven until Jesus came. By His death we now can be born again. Thus when He died He set the captives free. Yet the book of Hebrews (11) tells us that many old testament saints believed. So you have only a few choices... Either they were born again, and could get into heaven apart from Christ. Or people don't need to be born again to believe...
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY The fact is regeneration is Christ in us... There are numerous scriptures that make that point. Col 2:12 says we are raised to life through faith.. Eph 3:17 He dwells in us through faith. When we are born again we are born of God this comes only through faith Gal 3:26. God is the one who fathers us.. John 1:12...... When we are born again it is by God we are his sons, but this comes by faith, scripture is clear
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY prophets from the old testament were justified by faith cause they walked and believed in God (cause the lord elected them) and gave them a new heart...thus they did go to heaven. but us being in a new covenant with jesus christ we (the elect) are born again. it's all on God's will
@Erap1muzik according to the book of ezekiel a new heart was something to come in the future, it was prophecy of what was to come through Christ. By saying o.t. saints went to heaven prior to Christs passion denies the need for Christs work on the cross. The fact is scriptures clearly say they were in abrahams bosom, and Christ set them free after his passion
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY unquote: were you rather be here or in abrahams bossom???abrahams bossom is in heaven...jesus christ is God so they went to heaven according to his elect will, look at enoch , elijah they were in christ, but now after the cross...unites all true believers in 1 body.
@Erap1muzik Orthodox Christianity distinguishes between abrahams bosom, and heaven. There is no scripture that even claims as you have. Not even to mention it makes no sense that Jesus would have to go to heaven to release the captives. So what are you using to support your preposition? It seems that you have a Catholic idea of heaven to me...
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY and your the 1 that seems catholic cause you brang up abrahams bossom like it was purgatory, or in hell somewhere; answer the question i asked.
@Erap1muzik It is clear from scriptures that o.t saints went to abrahams bosom. But since you say abrahams bosom is heaven (catholic) you are saying that Christs passion was not necessary. You are saying that had access to heaven apart from the actual death of Christ
I think faith is the outworking of life infused in the elect so regeneration is simulateous in time with faith but faith is logically dependant on regeneration. Creation is not necessary so God's knowledge of creation depends on the decree to create. His natural knowledge is not foreknowledge otherwise we would have a God that does not create freely.
If God exerts real and active providential control, then the future is adjustable and hence he cannot have known it, and if he possesses meticulous foreknowledge of every detail of the future before he creates, then he cannot change any single feature since he knows precisely what every feature will be. Hence it is "inconsistent logic" for a loving God to create Satan knowing he will turn evil and unbelieving humans who will be condemned to eternal torment in hell.
By the way. You both claim to believe in the sovereignty of God over evil. Neither Calvinists nor Arminians can explain why God does not wipe out evil, since he is suppoosedly in control. Arminians say Calvinism makes God the author of sin which is ridiculous, and Calvinists make excuses for why he allows it, and provide no solid answers. Both sides are incnsistant. Joohn Sanders has an excellent book called "The God Who Risks", that provides a convincing and consistant arguement.
After observing the recurring arguements, I am amused. Neither side makes their point, or any sense for that matter. Greg Boyd is right on the money. The only way that man truly has free will is that God really doesn't know what man will do in the future. Arminians claim they believe in freewill, however if God knows what we do, how is it that we have freewill ? And Calvinists are just plain fatalists. Thanks for the entertainment. Hope you get the point.
cont. 2 Peter 1:20-21 speaks of Scripture as not coming from one's own interpretation or by the will of man, but men spoke from God, carried along by the Holy Spirit. If libertarian freedom were true and they could have written otherwise, the only conclusion would be that God got very lucky. God clearly works all things after the counsel of "His" will.
@machomuscleman1 The men who wrote the scriptures were indwelt by the Holy Spirit who wrote scriptures through them. Based on your point this means that God himself is the author of all sin in the same way that He is the author of scripture.
@shteve77 No, not at all. This is a common error or assumption . God is light and there is no darkness in hIM, Yet He allows evil for His own purpoose which ultimately leads to glory for Himself.
@machomuscleman1 You can't have it both ways. If men have no freedom and If you want to argue that God allowing men freedom means He can't control what they do and can only make plans hoping to "get lucky" then logically you must also apply your same arguement to sin, meaning that God is the author of all sin in the same way He is the author of scripture. In Calvinism the ONLY reason that men sin is because God planned and decreed them to sin, He infact imposed Irresistible evil on them.
@machomuscleman1 If a man puts a bullet in a gun and shoots someone, who is responsible? The bullet who had no freedom and can only do what He is made to do? Or the man? In Calvinism God is the ultimate cause of everything, He is apparently responsible for everything good that happens, but somehow, men who can only do what God decrees by sovereign, omnipotentm command for them to do, they somehow are responsible for the evil that God has planned for them to commit. This is illogical.
@shteve77 First of all what may seem illogical to our finite minds, doesn't forfeit God's divine plan. Let's let scripture speak for itself. Acts 2:23 is a good place to begin. "Him being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified and put to death". These evil men by their freewill fulfilled God's purpose, ultimately bringing glory in His mercy, while the men are still held responsible, thus glorifying God in His judgement
@machomuscleman1 What we need to understand is that God is omniscient and therefore knows what men will freely choose to do. God knew that if He put Pilate into power that Pilate would hand Jesus over to be crucified. Jesus knew if He chose Judas to be a disciple that Judas would betray Him. God is perfectly able to make plans and use what He knows men will choose to do without causing it Himself.
@shteve77 I agree God is omniscient, but if He merely looks into the future seeing what we will do, then He is not sovereign, we are. Eph 1:11 says He works all things according to the council of His will not ours. Also, here's a question for you, "if God merely sees who will not believe and will spend eternity in hell, then why create them" ?
@machomuscleman1 If God chooses to allow men to make a free choice how does God cease to be sovereign? You didn't address the scriptures I supplied. Luk7:30/Act7:51?
In answer to your question I suppose to actually allow men the freedom to choose and to accept the reward or consequences of their choice. The question for Calvinists would be why does God create most of mankind, not just allowing them to choose to rebel, but only for the purpose of creating vessels of destruction to burn in hell?
@shteve77 Good point, but Arminians are just as inconsistent. Neither Calvinists nor Arminians make any logical sense out of why a God who supposedly knows future events would create anybody knowing they will suffer in eternal torment. And if as Calvinists and Arminians insist that God knows what we will do in the future, then we are not truly free as Greg Boyd so rightly points out.
@MrQuest4truth I can't see how the fact that God knows in advance what men will freely choose do to means that we are not "truly free". How does His knowledge of our choose limit our ability to freely choose?
@shteve77 If God knows every detail of every future choice that every human being will make, all meaningfullness of human behavior is destroyed and any notion of any real freedom is undermined. The real relationship with God/creature relations is only apparent and at best illusory, and in the end we are left with a fundamentally determinist model.
@MrQuest4truth Sorry, but if God allows men complete freedom to make choices, and God, because He is outside time and knows all things happens to foreknow/foresee what those choices will be, I fail to see how that stops the choices men make from being free or meaningful. If you choose to go to the beach tomorrow and I happen to look into the future and know that is what you are going to choose to do, it doesn't change the fact that you freely have chosen to go to the beach.
@MrQuest4truth your problem is that you don't think men are evil. and you want to make up your own God that suites you... i bet if i were to asked you .are you a good person???? you'll answer sure i try...in if i asked you will you go to heaven?? yes i will cause i'm a good person..God is gonna judge the heart with all your secret thoughts lets see how good you really are.
@machomuscleman1 You ask an important question, but one that no Calvinist has a logical answer for. Calvinists and Arminians claim to believe in a God of love, but both claim that God foresees all future events, even the eternal torment of much of his creation.
@shteve77 cont. James 1:13-14 make it perfectly clear that "God tempts no one to commit evil, but each one is tempted by his own desires and enticed". Remember Jesus' words in Mark 7:23 "All these evil things come from within and defile a man". And Prov. 16:9 "A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." Nothing take God by surprise, and while it is clear God isn't the author of sin, nevertheless He uses it to fulfill His purpose.Another text is the account of Joseph(Gen 50:20)
@machomuscleman1 Yes, God can use sin to fulfill His purpose, but in Calvinism God does far more than that. He decrees what they will do, and can anyone resist God's decree? If God has decreed a person to do something wicked then they will do it and have no choice but to sin.
cont. The real problem with Arminian theology is that it teaches that God's power to fulfill His perfect will can be thwarted by human resistance. All this does is elevate man and diminish God, when scripture is clear repeatedly that God causes all things to work together for good.
@machomuscleman1 Man can't do anything to thwart God's plans except for that which God allows. If God has decided to allow men the freedom to go against His will then that is God's choice. It is clear from scripture that He does allow men to go against His will. "But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves"Luke7:30, or in Acts 7:51 "You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
@shteve77 First of all, if the human creature is the determiner with his will and actions being ultimate, this makes God merely the knower. This elevates man and dimishes God's sovereignty no matter how you attempt to justify it. Secondly in response to Luke 7:30 and Acts 7:51, John answers this very well in his gospel verses 8:44 and 8:47. Now if I may, I'd like you to comment oon John 12:37-40 and Acts 13:48.
@machomuscleman1 Sorry, but I asked how does it make God anyless Sovereign if God chooses to allow men freedom to make a choice? Men are still only doing what God allows them to. They are not acting outside what God has permitted, so how is God still not sovereign?
Secondly, if God allowing men freedom of any sort diminishes God's sovereignty then based on your own logic God Himself is repsonsible is personally responsible for all sin. Men are mere puppets that He makes sin.
@machomuscleman1 Sorry, but you actually didn't answer the verses I gave. Acts7:51 says they "resist the Holy Spirit" and Luke 7 says that the "Pharisees rejected the purpose God had for their themselves".
If it is true that God created them as vessels of destruction, always intending to destroy them, how are they rejecting the purpose God had for them buy rejecting Christ?
@shteve77 The question concerns unbelief. John 10:26 answers Luke 7:30 and Acts 7:51 another way, alittle differently than 8:44 and 8:47. The Pharisees rejected Christ because they were not His sheep. You refer to Romans 9. I urge you to study it thoroughly. God never is responsible for sin 1John 1:5 and James 1:13-14. I've mentioned this before. Jesus is clear in Mark 7:23 that it is what is inside a man that defiles him. God permits sin for His own purpose.Romans 9:17 uses Pharaoh as a point
@machomuscleman1 There is a world of difference between God allowing men the freedom to choose and permitting them to sin and using the sin He knows they will freely choose to do for His own purpose, than your position, which is that men have no freedom, so God controls eveything they do which logically means that men are not free do do anything except which God has pre-decided they will do, which must mean that when they sin it is because God causes them to sin.
@machomuscleman1 How does it answer the question? Luke 7 tells us that the Pharisees rejected God's purpose for themselves. If it was always God's purpose that they reject Christ then how are they rejecting God's purpose for themselves by rejecting Christ? Aren't they doing as God has pre-determined? And if it was God's purpose for them to believe then how can a mere man reject the Calvinist God's purpose for themselves and reject Christ when God's purpose for them is to believe?
@shteve77 With all due respect brother. You are making things more complex than need be.I will leave you with one more verse to contemplate. Acts 13:27 ties it altogether. "For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nore even the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him". They acted out their sinful deed, in their willful rejection and unbelief (John 5:39-40), fulfilling God's ultimate purpose. Blessings
@machomuscleman1 Sorry, but it's Calvinism that makes things not only complitated but a contradiction. You are trying to say that men have no free will and God alone decides what will happen. But in the scripture we read that the Pharisees rejected God's purpose for themselves, and that they "resisted the Holy Spirit". If God is controlling everything they do then why didn't the Pharisees fulfill the God's purpose for themselves, and how could they have resisted the Holy Spirit?
Daniel 4:35 goes a step further showing God's sovereignty over the "host of heaven". Thus all the inhabitants of the earth as well as in the spiritual realm can not thwart or frustrate God's will.Consider Deut.32:39"See now that I, I am He,there is no god besides Me;it is I who put to death and give life.I have wounded and I heal, there is no one who can deliver from my hand". The comprehensive sovereignty of God and libertarian freedom are mutually exclusive. I will continue with 1 more point
I'm afraid you have a dilemma.On one hand you claim belief in God's sovereignty and then you ask "what about the things God has not decreed".Isaiah 10:5 shoows Assyria as an instrument of judgement against Israel saying they are "the rod of His anger". However, verse 7 makes it clear that this was not Assyria's decree. They were motivated instead by greed and a hunger for power. When God completes His work in Jerusalem He justly punishes His instrument on the basis of their sinful intentions.
@machomuscleman1 I am missing your argument. Everything that has and will come to pass is in accordance with the decree of God. God did not decree that Satan would overthrow his rule, therefore there are things that God did not decree. So where is the dilemma?
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY So according to your "logic", which quite frankly is inconsistent and makes no sense, God foreknows the future, yet he creates Satan and believers who will reject salvation and spend eternity in hell, despite "knowing" what they will do . A typical Arminian description of a God who like the Calvinist God creates beings that ultimately end up condemned to eternal torment.
Proginosko happens to be the same Greek word translated "foreknown" in v. 20 of 1st Peter 1. Are you prepared to say that God knew what Christ was going to do before the world began ?
Too much burdensome head/brain work and not enough faith. If you have the spirit it is your responsibility to believe and have fellowship with him, not to be contending with other people over every point and argument. God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. A simple faith in Jesus is foolishness to the wise because nothing is earned, we are saved by grace. You must be born again, it's not an intellectual exercise because no flesh shall glory in his presence. ONLY BELIEVE!
Did I hear you say that Justification (@7:32) means: "being made righteous"?
Are you suggesting that Baptism is the instrumental means of regeneration (@7:59)?
And why not go to the text that actually addresses the 'ordo salutis' (eg. Rom.8:29-30)? Why read into other texts your own presuppositions before looking at texts that actually address the subject?
I think you need to do a little more homework before attempting to engage this subject.
@rkg62976 (7:32) All of salvations stems from our union with Christ it is an inward, and outward work. We are not declared righteous without God making us righteous by the work of Christ.
(7:59) Union with Christ is the means of regeneration
Romans 8 is not a ordo salutis, if it were then God does not sanctify us.
Sin is the disease that caused death. Removing the disease (sin) after death has already taken place dose not grant life. One who is dead has no ability to do anything, that is why one must be born of God first before he is able to obey the commands of God. (repent, place faith in Christ, be baptized etc.) It seems to me that justification takes place simultaneously with spiritual birth through the faith OF Christ who predestined us from the foundation of the world. (Galatians 2:20) (Mat 25:34)
TD isn't true. Sinners have to turn to Jesus. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord - 2 Cor. 3:16-18.
It's nice to find someone so young that is full of wisdom and truth. Keep on sharing the truth with the world.I was about to give up on understanding the bible until i found out a how to rightly divide the word of God. I was 33 before I found out how important it was to know the "Who,What, an When" Once you know the time line the whole bible starts making sense.
@joejohnson043 - Islamic fatalism says God decrees something, and there's nothing we can do about it, or prevent. So, to wear seatbelts is useless - God has determined your time of death anyhow. When I visited Pakistan, they fill the mini-buses to the brim, people hanging out the site & tilting it - so I asked what happens if it tilts over & people die - one said, "Well then, it would be the will of Allah". No need for preventative responsibility. In hyperCalvanism - no need for missions.
this whole thing is silly. Time is part of creation. God is not bound by time, He is outside of time. He sees our 'future' more clearly than we see the computer screen in front of our face. Just in the physics sense of what we can grasp: the past, present, & future would all be the same to Him. If He can see what you are doing now, He can equally see what you did yesterday, and tomorrow.... its the same outside of time. So He can give you choice AND know how you decide, at the same time...
Calvies don't get it that God is Truth, so He Decrees Truth be Free. For Omniscience encompasses all that COULD and COULD NOT exist, so the question is will God CHOOSE for it to exist.
He Sovereignly Chooses to ENSURE all be free to exist or not, independently, theme of Eph1.
This fact routs Arminianism and Calvinism, who alike betray a childish grasp of God's Nature, as both 'camps' are stuck in a 1610 Dordt time bubble. :)
This idea that people hate God before coming to Christ doesn't add up, not if it's made a universal descriptor. A lot of non-Christians put Christians to shame by their goodness; many of them produce a lot of good fruit, unlike a lot of Christians. A doctrine of grace that allows it to be truly *free grace* will "allow" God to be more fruitful in non-Christians than in Christians. Otherwise, the doctrine of free grace becomes another man-made legalistic idol that won't let God be God :( Just MO
@5355vbxjbj76rvn Yeah, I think that point is over-stated. I know plenty of unsaved people (friends) and they don't hate God. They are in rebellion to a large extent. My best friend is convinced that the universe must have been created, through academic/scientific research, but she is unwilling to make the next step and is honest enough to admit it's because she doesn't like the idea of being responsible to God. I think that's a common reaction. There are God-haters - Dawkins et al
I'll let you argue with God please read: Mt 28:19-20, 1 Cor 1:21, then Rom 1:16, Rom 10:14, Acts 2:40 sure, fallen man wants to do his own will but why would Peter tell them to repent in Acts 2:38 and why would Jesus tell those that if they didn't repent they would perish in Lk 13:3. Did Peter and Jesus both lie as it would be impossible for them to repent to begin with?
So God sent Christ to die for people who is ALREADY saved? HUH? And all of the newborns who haven't sinned yet die and go to an eternal devils hell? So at about 3:12 he says that God made a way of salvation possible. But, is this ''way'' that God made for one who is predestined to be saved or losr no matter what? Unless he wants to admit a predestined saved person can sin and be lost (which is against his eternal security doctrine). It's sad so many believe this false doctrine.
@manofreedom what is a tragedy is that people comment on things they apparently don't grasp. You don't seem to understand the reformend view of election. You have turned the word predestination into a bad word. What does it mean to predestine? or to elect? These words appear in the bible. What does jesus mean when he says, "no one can come to me, unless the father draws him"? Christ came to offer propitiation to those chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.
@ctu7421 According to Eph 1 we are chosen in Christ. What does it mean to be in Christ. According to good old reformed theology in Christ spoken of in Ephesians 1 refers to our union with Christ. We are chosen based on Christ in our union with Him. In Him we are also predestined, this was all done from eternity passed, which glorifies both the sovereignty, and knowledge of God. We are chosen, and predestined in Christ. No one can come, yes that is true, but John 12:32 says he draws everyone
@ctu74211 the bigger tragedy is the neo-Calvinism cropping up in churches today. Luther & Calvin were wicked men. They may or may not have been saved, but either way their opinions and doctrine is NOT equal to scripture!
@joejohnson043 no one's opinion is equal to doctrine! I would agree with you there. To say calvin and luther were evil men is misguided and foolish. Pray tell me, who are some of your heroes of the faith?
@manofreedom JESUS SAID MANY ARE CALLED, FEW ARE CHOSEN. The Called are MANY, but that comes down to YOU ANSWERING HIS CALL. It is NOT THE LORD'S WILL THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but HE KNOWS that MOST PEOPLE WILL REJECT HIM, because they love their DAMN (and I do mean "damn") SINS so damn much that they are NOT WILLING to TURN from them, neither become a LIVING SACRIFICE UNTO THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, because they LOVE their "evil deeds." FALLEN MAN LOVES SIN & HATES JUDGMENT & HATES REPENTANCE.
Decent response, I'd say. Good point that God declares us righteous, not after having purified us, but "while we were ungodly " in response to our faith, imperfect as it is(which is why it needs to keep growing). And yes, I agree that God's calling us and wooing us with his love is effectual enough as well. I see so many similarities between the fatalism of Islam and Hyper-Calvanists.
you sounds so confused... I suggest you to read the Bible in context. Please learn this, and probably the book titled How to Read the Bible for all its Worth by Gordon Fee will be able to help you.
In Phil. 2:12 it says "work for your own salvation", so we will be saved according to our deeds, II Cor.5:10. If you want to be saved it's up to you. GOD gives you and me a chance to choose...if you want to be saveed, believe and obey HIS commandments..Jn. 14:15, if not disobey HIM..II Thes. 1:8-9 Always God Bless You guys. smile
@wordofadvice1 phil 2:12 says "continue to work OUT your salvation with fear a trembling"
It doesn't say work for your own salvation.
and Romans 10:9
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your hear that God raised him from the dead you will be saved."
You don't have to do anything for your salvation except tell God that you know that he sent his son Jesus to die for you and that he rose from the dead so that you could have life then you will be saved.
(Pt.2) How does God know everything like that? It is simply through being of the greatest of seers. And having the most Holy Priesthood. God gained these things by being born in a physical world just as we did and progressed to where He is now and then had us as His children spiritually. Thus every being reproduces after their own kind.
Those are some interesting topics in your video. Of course God has knowledge of the future, and yes there is still free will. He just knows the results of every path or choice we make and which ones we are most likely to take. The future is not set in stone. You can see this in Johah who was in the belly of a whale for 3 days. God did not destroy the people because they listened to Jonah and repented. So you can see free will there.
Google Münchhausen Trilemma, it can provide good exercise, both for those that believe in God, and those that chose to not. In the end? Neither can be axiomatically proven, so let's focus on what CAN actually be somehow agreed, not something that is just impossible to agree on. Focus on what makes us similar, not what differentiates us.
Great video! And aren't you the same person who did that 5-part video on Jonathan Edward's "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God?" I kind of recognize your voice.
And who's that couple in this video? You and your wife?
John 3:16 says it simply...Salvation is a "gift". Define "Gift".
gift–noun
1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.
2. the act of giving.
3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift.
When Jesus came he preached to be as like that of a little child when you come to God. Please think about what this must mean. I think it's so mazing! God Bless You. smile
@ChurchOfKali66619 But Kali has so many arms, how do you know the right one didn't point to Christ? ;-) is the world riding on the back of a turtle? Or is it a lone orb (Job)? Which religion then would be more likely to be true? I thought Hinduism sought the truth, not grasping at error?
God is dependent on true love actually... and true love is reason that, God the perfect being, needs human beings to love Him back, because one cannot experience love if he is alone, LOVE needs an object partner... it is the core reason that He send His only Son for WORLD not to CRUCIFY but to BELEIVE!.. That He might regain our love.
It is the failure of the people in Jesus time to see His heart that made them crucify the Christ.
God is our Eternal True Parent... and we are suppose to be His children... it is becouse of True Love that He create us. And all He wants is to inherit this True Love...
What is true love?
True Love is a love that gives and gives and forgets that he given, and continues to give more....
True love is living for the sake of others, and not living for the sake of oneself...
How about worrying about our neighbours, loving others - rather than looking for some sort of scientific formula as a way of getting a ticket to heaven?
my guess is that if a Calvinist actually faced God and He tried to explain how He did certain things it would be inevitable for the Calvinist to say something like:
"no God, thats not possible, for you are omniscient etc etc etc"
and He will say to you "does your human perception and human definitions decide what I am? or does even your ability to contemplate my being emanate from Me?"
Calvinist's want to fit God into a neat and tidy little naturalistic little box to make themselves feel safe because they are incapable of understanding of the depths of God
They are natural, legalistic men incapable or unwilling to contemplate the complexities of God
were you there when God created the world?
why don't you explain to Him how he established the heavens and the earth since you know....
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.
Dr. White wants to talk about mental gymnastics as if he expects anything less when trying to discern the thoughts of the living God?
You can not give up sin until you have sinned enough and thoroughly realized what is sin and why is it undesirable. This will bring you to accept the wisdom of God, surrender and give up sin as if you are throwing away an old shoe.
Not by repressing the tendency to sin.
Sins are only mistakes in a growing process. If a baby stumbles while learning to walk, a loving father or mother will not condemn him but help him to get up and walk again.
my response is why are christians debating other christians? That's just stupid... Like Kobe and shaq fighting while playing on the Lakers...thats why they looked a mess? We're fighting each other why? We're on the same team
@dkan3 I think it's good when we debate - we shouldn't just accept everything we hear. Use the Bible as the evidence, and you're guarenteed to end up with a heap of gold you were not expecting :))
Having said that --- I don't blindly agree with everything he, or anybody says. For example, James White (to the best of my knowledge) does NOT hold the KJV Bible to be the purest Word of God given to the English-speaking world. I do believe the KJV is THE pure bible for the English-speaking world.
A different discussion, for another post perhaps... just to make a point.
What does that MEAN? I do not claim to know. Holy Scripture declares that God's ways are not our ways, and God's thoughts are not our thoughts---but much higher.
God is a mystery. I believe, even salvation has mystery to it. Read the VERY words of our Lord Jesus Christ on soteriology in John Chapter 3. When Nicodemus asks about how one can be saved, in verse 8 Christ speaks of the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell WHENCE
@MODERATECALVINISM "God is..." Deal with that. Just that. That you believe something doesn't make it true. Given enough time people will come to believe Yoda is god or that Harry Potter is god. Wouldn't it be farcical for different sects of Yoda worshipers to argue over the nature of Yoda? You god botherers are funny.
@wordofadvice1 Blessing back, word. You may wish to read my response to awatson if you were thinking I was merely being snotty about the Yoda comparison.
@wordofadvice1 Scientologists are here to tell you Xenu is real. Mormons are here to tell you Joseph Smith is a prophet of god. Muslims are here to tell you that Jesus is not lord. Hindus are here to tell you that Shiva and or Vishnu are gods. Con artists are here to tell you that for a fee they can heal you or speak to your dead aunt. Suckers are born every minute. Enough to believe every bit of nonsense uttered just because someone is here to tell it.
@awatson945 I can see what your saying hrere. But come on now! We have a deep understanding of so much more things then a bunch of B.S. We are not suckers. God made us in the image of his ownself and with that being said then we are completely full of knowledge that sometimes does not come from us. I think that the Holy Spirit comes into play here. It's that simple. God is the alpha and the omega. The beginning and the end of everything. Who can argue that. God Bless You.smile
@wordofadvice1 >>"God made us in the image of his ownself..."
Says who? Humans wrote the Bible. Look, I bought into the story myself. I'm no better than you. We all buy into falsehoods. If you choose to continue with your beliefs because they are precious to you that is fine. Just understand that all followers of false beliefs defend those beliefs, sometimes even with their lives. Nothing you have said justifies your belief. It;s just that, a belief without evidence.
@awatson945 . The evidence is very clear! We all want good rather then bad just like our Father in heaven has given us free choice to do good or the oppisite. If we are truely like God in spirit then yes, we are like God who, as we can see through God's Ten commandments. God made it clear that it's not a belief without evidence and it will never be. We as one people all want good just as God wanted us to do his will which was all good.The evidence is in the Human Spirit! God Bless You. smile
@wordofadvice1 Your statement is begging the question. Your premises explicitly assume the conclusion. The entire argument is fallacious, The ten commandments say nothing about rape, slavery, pedophelia or other very serious immorality. When they were written god said it was okay to beat slaves, kill your children, kill a woman for being raped, etc. The ten Commandments say nothing about prohibiting cruel punishment. Nothing about life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
@awatson945 Just curious, the levitical law consists of far more than the 10 commandments. Those are just the high points. There are over 600 laws. Rape is covered under fornication. Beating a slave is covered as well. Killing children is covered under "Thou shalt not kill" (Children are not excluded from that.)
@jorsak Dude, I DIDN'T make this stuff up. Read your Bible. I included the relevant passages below.
>>"There are over 600 laws." Which iclude permission to beat your slaves (Exodus 21:20-21) ...and includes forcing a woman to marry her rapist. (Deuteronomy 22:28) ...the requirement to kill women who are raped but don't cry out (Deuteronomy 22:23-24) ...the requirement to kill unruly children (Exodus 21:15, 17)
I stand by what I said, your commentary changes nothing.
@awatson945 I have read my Bible numerous times. Are you interested, at all, in context? You stated in your post that I previously responded too that the Bible does not address rape. I stated that it was covered by the laws that govern fornication. you have to addressed that. Each of your points can be refuted by the law as the one that I have currently referenced... but the REAL question is are you OPEN to being wrong or is your mind set.
@awatson945 I know full well what the content of the subject matter is within the CONTEXT of the law. There is,howvere, no point in discussing it with someone who is not themselves open to being wrong. You accuse me of beating around the bush. I asked you a very simple question and while you refused to answer it your arrogance answered for you.
You are unwilling to be wrong and thus, there is no point in further conversation.
Hi Boy I would sure love to hear you debate James White. Have you ever had the opportunity ? Thanks
EstherGalBluplan 4 days ago
what the fuck are you retards talking about get a fucking life
padlockers 3 weeks ago
Calvinists always begin with God's sovereignty. They never mention his love. When they do they always mention it in reference to the so-called elect, simply because God never loved the so-called non-elect.
lessingtom 4 weeks ago
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@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY you keep twisting my words... jesus christ is the only way for salvation...and the ot saints did go to abrahams bossom... but the captives were regular believing people.and that's it...
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
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Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY you avoided my question cause you know if you would had said yes i rather be in abrahams bossm , is cause you know that it is a place of comfort no torment.. for the last time the captives that jesus christ set free (from the grasp of death n sin) were the regular people that were believers, matt 27: 52-54 peace.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik I answered your question. You have yet to prove 1. That abrahams bosom is heaven. 2. That people in the o.t were born again. The fact is when Jesus set the captives free they were walking around, they were no longer in the bosom.
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY ok when abraham died did he go to heaven???
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik Abraham went to abrahams bosom,then was set free.
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY ok so he went to his own place! jesus christ said i will go and prepare a place for you...john:14 speaking so we could see that abrahams bossom is in heaven. the problem is that you don't know who are the captives. is not the old testament prophets, it's the regular believing peoples. all of the ot prophets went to heaven look at gen:5 24 enoch went to heaven. so did elijah 2kings2:11..you didn't notice that i just gave you a revelation cause u didn't know
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
Enoch did not die, not that he will not die everyone will die. Enoch is a totally differennt context we are talking about what happens when someone dies. Why would Jesus have to prepare a place when abrahams bosom was already prepared? Abrahams bosom was to be done away with
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY that captives were the people in matt27:52-54
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik the prophets did not go to a different place then other bepievers. I suggest you research your views because they are not reformed
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY so jesus is God so all the old testament saints where in christ.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik what are you talking about. You still have not proved yyour presuppositions. I am able to show you my theology from the scriptures, how bout you?
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY so i just proved it to you with your own arguments against me and you brang up the captives not knowing who they were and abrahams bossom and i just revealed the truth....so i'm gonna be out of here..see ya peace.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik ummmm. Certainly no unbelievers got a second chance. Therefore it must have been believers that were set free. Were you raised catholic?
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY are you the uploader of this vid?
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik yes, why do you ask?
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY how's it going??? later when i get home i'm gonna register to your site cause i want to look into:Ecclesiology, Harmotology, Polemics, Eschatology, Soteriology and Soteriology.
Erap1muzik 3 weeks ago
@Erap1muzik Sorry, I have not been on their lately. I will go on there, and if there is any fresh posts
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 2 weeks ago
@Erap1muzik btw i like your beats, what software are you using?
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY i went on your page and figured it was you...i use reason, flstudio and mpc n mpd.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
you don't seem to understand me i said before that i'm a christian calvinist. i believe that God chooses his people for his own glory.and about the lord jesus christ setting the captives free i didn't say he had to go to heaven!!! releasing the captives means free from the bondage of death into eternal life.but you didn't answer my questions would you rather be here in this world or in abrahams bossom???
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik You said abrahams bosom was heaven. So if He set the captives free in abrahams bosom, what you are saying is He set the captives free in heaven. There is no abrahams bosom anymore Christ died on the cross, absent from the body is present with the Lord.
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
how's was lazarus raised!!!! "first regeneration had to take place to hear the command... then after being regenerated then he heard christ's voice and came out of the grave.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik Lazarus was raised by Resurrection. You do now that resurrection, and regeneration are two different things right? Was Lazarus given a new heart in his resurrection?
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY yes there's a difference, but lazarus was a believer so he was regenareted already...so lazarus had to be raised first then he heard the command...like us we are dead in our sins so how could a dead men come to christ!!! unless he regenarates our heart first so then we could belive the gospel.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik Actually you are incorrect. No one prior to Christs' passion was regenerated. It is because of His death we are born again, and can enter the kingdom of heaven (John 3:7) . Prior to Jesus' death the o.t. saints awaited Jesus in Abrahams bosom. Our regeneration is our new life in Christ (Gal 2:20) this comes via His passion. Regeneration is Christ in us, we are united to him through his death Col 2:11–12
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik There is also a difference between physical death, and spiritual death. If one is spiritually dead the same way he is physically dead, then how can he even rebel against God. Dead men can't rebel... So if they cannot believe, they cannot rebel. That is if I take your understanding. It seems that you are mixing terms (physical / spiritual) (resurrection / regeneration)
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY of course spirtually dead is in sin...so no one can't come to christ unless he opens there heart first, so then they could believe, then they'll have true life in christ...lazarus was physically dead. you don't seem to get my points i'm a calvinist.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik I understand your point. But God opening someones hearts so they may understand is not regeneration. What you are describing is enlightenment, or illumination. This comes through calling / drawing. Where you are making the mistake is calling illumination, regeneration. Opening the heart, and giving them a new heart is two different things. I can open a door without replacing it.
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
both opening the heart, and replacing the heart is necessary. Regeneration is not needed for someone to repent, and believe. God calling the individual through the gospel, and the Spirit it what is needed to give the person the ability that is lacking. Regeneration is what happens when we are united to Christ.Early reformed theology teaches that regeneration comes through union, and we are united to Christ via faith, and we are enable to believe via illumination / drawing.
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY no is very cleared what i said: but let me make this point when God gives a person a new heart is already opened to know him...when a baby is in the womb does it know or see the parents??? of course not!!! not until it's born then he or she starts to know n grow to love the parents, that's how we are first God plants the seed of life (to the elect only) we receive a new heart of flesh so then we are born again then we know God and believe then repent.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik My friend I believe you are missing my point. No old Testament saint was born again, this is why they could not go to heaven until Jesus came. By His death we now can be born again. Thus when He died He set the captives free. Yet the book of Hebrews (11) tells us that many old testament saints believed. So you have only a few choices... Either they were born again, and could get into heaven apart from Christ. Or people don't need to be born again to believe...
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY The fact is regeneration is Christ in us... There are numerous scriptures that make that point. Col 2:12 says we are raised to life through faith.. Eph 3:17 He dwells in us through faith. When we are born again we are born of God this comes only through faith Gal 3:26. God is the one who fathers us.. John 1:12...... When we are born again it is by God we are his sons, but this comes by faith, scripture is clear
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY prophets from the old testament were justified by faith cause they walked and believed in God (cause the lord elected them) and gave them a new heart...thus they did go to heaven. but us being in a new covenant with jesus christ we (the elect) are born again. it's all on God's will
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik according to the book of ezekiel a new heart was something to come in the future, it was prophecy of what was to come through Christ. By saying o.t. saints went to heaven prior to Christs passion denies the need for Christs work on the cross. The fact is scriptures clearly say they were in abrahams bosom, and Christ set them free after his passion
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY unquote: were you rather be here or in abrahams bossom???abrahams bossom is in heaven...jesus christ is God so they went to heaven according to his elect will, look at enoch , elijah they were in christ, but now after the cross...unites all true believers in 1 body.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik Orthodox Christianity distinguishes between abrahams bosom, and heaven. There is no scripture that even claims as you have. Not even to mention it makes no sense that Jesus would have to go to heaven to release the captives. So what are you using to support your preposition? It seems that you have a Catholic idea of heaven to me...
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY and your the 1 that seems catholic cause you brang up abrahams bossom like it was purgatory, or in hell somewhere; answer the question i asked.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik It is clear from scriptures that o.t saints went to abrahams bosom. But since you say abrahams bosom is heaven (catholic) you are saying that Christs passion was not necessary. You are saying that had access to heaven apart from the actual death of Christ
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
Dr. james white is a brilliant man that's is blessed by God with the holy spirit.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik Indeed.
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 1 month ago
I think faith is the outworking of life infused in the elect so regeneration is simulateous in time with faith but faith is logically dependant on regeneration. Creation is not necessary so God's knowledge of creation depends on the decree to create. His natural knowledge is not foreknowledge otherwise we would have a God that does not create freely.
BeholdTheCross 2 months ago
If God exerts real and active providential control, then the future is adjustable and hence he cannot have known it, and if he possesses meticulous foreknowledge of every detail of the future before he creates, then he cannot change any single feature since he knows precisely what every feature will be. Hence it is "inconsistent logic" for a loving God to create Satan knowing he will turn evil and unbelieving humans who will be condemned to eternal torment in hell.
MrQuest4truth 4 months ago
By the way. You both claim to believe in the sovereignty of God over evil. Neither Calvinists nor Arminians can explain why God does not wipe out evil, since he is suppoosedly in control. Arminians say Calvinism makes God the author of sin which is ridiculous, and Calvinists make excuses for why he allows it, and provide no solid answers. Both sides are incnsistant. Joohn Sanders has an excellent book called "The God Who Risks", that provides a convincing and consistant arguement.
MrQuest4truth 4 months ago
After observing the recurring arguements, I am amused. Neither side makes their point, or any sense for that matter. Greg Boyd is right on the money. The only way that man truly has free will is that God really doesn't know what man will do in the future. Arminians claim they believe in freewill, however if God knows what we do, how is it that we have freewill ? And Calvinists are just plain fatalists. Thanks for the entertainment. Hope you get the point.
MrQuest4truth 4 months ago
cont. 2 Peter 1:20-21 speaks of Scripture as not coming from one's own interpretation or by the will of man, but men spoke from God, carried along by the Holy Spirit. If libertarian freedom were true and they could have written otherwise, the only conclusion would be that God got very lucky. God clearly works all things after the counsel of "His" will.
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 The men who wrote the scriptures were indwelt by the Holy Spirit who wrote scriptures through them. Based on your point this means that God himself is the author of all sin in the same way that He is the author of scripture.
shteve77 4 months ago
@shteve77 No, not at all. This is a common error or assumption . God is light and there is no darkness in hIM, Yet He allows evil for His own purpoose which ultimately leads to glory for Himself.
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 You can't have it both ways. If men have no freedom and If you want to argue that God allowing men freedom means He can't control what they do and can only make plans hoping to "get lucky" then logically you must also apply your same arguement to sin, meaning that God is the author of all sin in the same way He is the author of scripture. In Calvinism the ONLY reason that men sin is because God planned and decreed them to sin, He infact imposed Irresistible evil on them.
shteve77 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 If a man puts a bullet in a gun and shoots someone, who is responsible? The bullet who had no freedom and can only do what He is made to do? Or the man? In Calvinism God is the ultimate cause of everything, He is apparently responsible for everything good that happens, but somehow, men who can only do what God decrees by sovereign, omnipotentm command for them to do, they somehow are responsible for the evil that God has planned for them to commit. This is illogical.
shteve77 4 months ago
@shteve77 First of all what may seem illogical to our finite minds, doesn't forfeit God's divine plan. Let's let scripture speak for itself. Acts 2:23 is a good place to begin. "Him being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified and put to death". These evil men by their freewill fulfilled God's purpose, ultimately bringing glory in His mercy, while the men are still held responsible, thus glorifying God in His judgement
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 What we need to understand is that God is omniscient and therefore knows what men will freely choose to do. God knew that if He put Pilate into power that Pilate would hand Jesus over to be crucified. Jesus knew if He chose Judas to be a disciple that Judas would betray Him. God is perfectly able to make plans and use what He knows men will choose to do without causing it Himself.
shteve77 4 months ago
@shteve77 I agree God is omniscient, but if He merely looks into the future seeing what we will do, then He is not sovereign, we are. Eph 1:11 says He works all things according to the council of His will not ours. Also, here's a question for you, "if God merely sees who will not believe and will spend eternity in hell, then why create them" ?
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 If God chooses to allow men to make a free choice how does God cease to be sovereign? You didn't address the scriptures I supplied. Luk7:30/Act7:51?
In answer to your question I suppose to actually allow men the freedom to choose and to accept the reward or consequences of their choice. The question for Calvinists would be why does God create most of mankind, not just allowing them to choose to rebel, but only for the purpose of creating vessels of destruction to burn in hell?
shteve77 4 months ago
@shteve77 Good point, but Arminians are just as inconsistent. Neither Calvinists nor Arminians make any logical sense out of why a God who supposedly knows future events would create anybody knowing they will suffer in eternal torment. And if as Calvinists and Arminians insist that God knows what we will do in the future, then we are not truly free as Greg Boyd so rightly points out.
MrQuest4truth 4 months ago
@MrQuest4truth I can't see how the fact that God knows in advance what men will freely choose do to means that we are not "truly free". How does His knowledge of our choose limit our ability to freely choose?
shteve77 4 months ago
@shteve77 If God knows every detail of every future choice that every human being will make, all meaningfullness of human behavior is destroyed and any notion of any real freedom is undermined. The real relationship with God/creature relations is only apparent and at best illusory, and in the end we are left with a fundamentally determinist model.
MrQuest4truth 3 months ago
@MrQuest4truth Sorry, but if God allows men complete freedom to make choices, and God, because He is outside time and knows all things happens to foreknow/foresee what those choices will be, I fail to see how that stops the choices men make from being free or meaningful. If you choose to go to the beach tomorrow and I happen to look into the future and know that is what you are going to choose to do, it doesn't change the fact that you freely have chosen to go to the beach.
shteve77 3 months ago
@MrQuest4truth your problem is that you don't think men are evil. and you want to make up your own God that suites you... i bet if i were to asked you .are you a good person???? you'll answer sure i try...in if i asked you will you go to heaven?? yes i will cause i'm a good person..God is gonna judge the heart with all your secret thoughts lets see how good you really are.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@machomuscleman1 You ask an important question, but one that no Calvinist has a logical answer for. Calvinists and Arminians claim to believe in a God of love, but both claim that God foresees all future events, even the eternal torment of much of his creation.
MrQuest4truth 4 months ago
@shteve77 cont. James 1:13-14 make it perfectly clear that "God tempts no one to commit evil, but each one is tempted by his own desires and enticed". Remember Jesus' words in Mark 7:23 "All these evil things come from within and defile a man". And Prov. 16:9 "A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." Nothing take God by surprise, and while it is clear God isn't the author of sin, nevertheless He uses it to fulfill His purpose.Another text is the account of Joseph(Gen 50:20)
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 Yes, God can use sin to fulfill His purpose, but in Calvinism God does far more than that. He decrees what they will do, and can anyone resist God's decree? If God has decreed a person to do something wicked then they will do it and have no choice but to sin.
shteve77 4 months ago
cont. The real problem with Arminian theology is that it teaches that God's power to fulfill His perfect will can be thwarted by human resistance. All this does is elevate man and diminish God, when scripture is clear repeatedly that God causes all things to work together for good.
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 Man can't do anything to thwart God's plans except for that which God allows. If God has decided to allow men the freedom to go against His will then that is God's choice. It is clear from scripture that He does allow men to go against His will. "But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves"Luke7:30, or in Acts 7:51 "You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
shteve77 4 months ago
@shteve77 First of all, if the human creature is the determiner with his will and actions being ultimate, this makes God merely the knower. This elevates man and dimishes God's sovereignty no matter how you attempt to justify it. Secondly in response to Luke 7:30 and Acts 7:51, John answers this very well in his gospel verses 8:44 and 8:47. Now if I may, I'd like you to comment oon John 12:37-40 and Acts 13:48.
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 Sorry, but I asked how does it make God anyless Sovereign if God chooses to allow men freedom to make a choice? Men are still only doing what God allows them to. They are not acting outside what God has permitted, so how is God still not sovereign?
Secondly, if God allowing men freedom of any sort diminishes God's sovereignty then based on your own logic God Himself is repsonsible is personally responsible for all sin. Men are mere puppets that He makes sin.
shteve77 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 Sorry, but you actually didn't answer the verses I gave. Acts7:51 says they "resist the Holy Spirit" and Luke 7 says that the "Pharisees rejected the purpose God had for their themselves".
If it is true that God created them as vessels of destruction, always intending to destroy them, how are they rejecting the purpose God had for them buy rejecting Christ?
shteve77 4 months ago
@shteve77 The question concerns unbelief. John 10:26 answers Luke 7:30 and Acts 7:51 another way, alittle differently than 8:44 and 8:47. The Pharisees rejected Christ because they were not His sheep. You refer to Romans 9. I urge you to study it thoroughly. God never is responsible for sin 1John 1:5 and James 1:13-14. I've mentioned this before. Jesus is clear in Mark 7:23 that it is what is inside a man that defiles him. God permits sin for His own purpose.Romans 9:17 uses Pharaoh as a point
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 There is a world of difference between God allowing men the freedom to choose and permitting them to sin and using the sin He knows they will freely choose to do for His own purpose, than your position, which is that men have no freedom, so God controls eveything they do which logically means that men are not free do do anything except which God has pre-decided they will do, which must mean that when they sin it is because God causes them to sin.
shteve77 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 How does it answer the question? Luke 7 tells us that the Pharisees rejected God's purpose for themselves. If it was always God's purpose that they reject Christ then how are they rejecting God's purpose for themselves by rejecting Christ? Aren't they doing as God has pre-determined? And if it was God's purpose for them to believe then how can a mere man reject the Calvinist God's purpose for themselves and reject Christ when God's purpose for them is to believe?
shteve77 4 months ago
@shteve77 With all due respect brother. You are making things more complex than need be.I will leave you with one more verse to contemplate. Acts 13:27 ties it altogether. "For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nore even the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him". They acted out their sinful deed, in their willful rejection and unbelief (John 5:39-40), fulfilling God's ultimate purpose. Blessings
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 Sorry, but it's Calvinism that makes things not only complitated but a contradiction. You are trying to say that men have no free will and God alone decides what will happen. But in the scripture we read that the Pharisees rejected God's purpose for themselves, and that they "resisted the Holy Spirit". If God is controlling everything they do then why didn't the Pharisees fulfill the God's purpose for themselves, and how could they have resisted the Holy Spirit?
shteve77 4 months ago
Daniel 4:35 goes a step further showing God's sovereignty over the "host of heaven". Thus all the inhabitants of the earth as well as in the spiritual realm can not thwart or frustrate God's will.Consider Deut.32:39"See now that I, I am He,there is no god besides Me;it is I who put to death and give life.I have wounded and I heal, there is no one who can deliver from my hand". The comprehensive sovereignty of God and libertarian freedom are mutually exclusive. I will continue with 1 more point
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 I am still missing your point
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 4 months ago
I'm afraid you have a dilemma.On one hand you claim belief in God's sovereignty and then you ask "what about the things God has not decreed".Isaiah 10:5 shoows Assyria as an instrument of judgement against Israel saying they are "the rod of His anger". However, verse 7 makes it clear that this was not Assyria's decree. They were motivated instead by greed and a hunger for power. When God completes His work in Jerusalem He justly punishes His instrument on the basis of their sinful intentions.
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 I am missing your argument. Everything that has and will come to pass is in accordance with the decree of God. God did not decree that Satan would overthrow his rule, therefore there are things that God did not decree. So where is the dilemma?
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 4 months ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY So according to your "logic", which quite frankly is inconsistent and makes no sense, God foreknows the future, yet he creates Satan and believers who will reject salvation and spend eternity in hell, despite "knowing" what they will do . A typical Arminian description of a God who like the Calvinist God creates beings that ultimately end up condemned to eternal torment.
MrQuest4truth 4 months ago
@MrQuest4truth I did not know that believing God is omniscient was "inconsistent logic". What Kind of creator do you hold to?
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 4 months ago
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machomuscleman1 4 months ago
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machomuscleman1 4 months ago
Proginosko happens to be the same Greek word translated "foreknown" in v. 20 of 1st Peter 1. Are you prepared to say that God knew what Christ was going to do before the world began ?
machomuscleman1 4 months ago
@machomuscleman1 Pro in the greek means before, ginosko derives from gnosis or knowledge.
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 4 months ago
Too much burdensome head/brain work and not enough faith. If you have the spirit it is your responsibility to believe and have fellowship with him, not to be contending with other people over every point and argument. God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. A simple faith in Jesus is foolishness to the wise because nothing is earned, we are saved by grace. You must be born again, it's not an intellectual exercise because no flesh shall glory in his presence. ONLY BELIEVE!
MarineBlue1981 5 months ago
Did I hear you say that Justification (@7:32) means: "being made righteous"?
Are you suggesting that Baptism is the instrumental means of regeneration (@7:59)?
And why not go to the text that actually addresses the 'ordo salutis' (eg. Rom.8:29-30)? Why read into other texts your own presuppositions before looking at texts that actually address the subject?
I think you need to do a little more homework before attempting to engage this subject.
rkg62976 6 months ago
@rkg62976 (7:32) All of salvations stems from our union with Christ it is an inward, and outward work. We are not declared righteous without God making us righteous by the work of Christ.
(7:59) Union with Christ is the means of regeneration
Romans 8 is not a ordo salutis, if it were then God does not sanctify us.
God Bless
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 5 months ago
Sin is the disease that caused death. Removing the disease (sin) after death has already taken place dose not grant life. One who is dead has no ability to do anything, that is why one must be born of God first before he is able to obey the commands of God. (repent, place faith in Christ, be baptized etc.) It seems to me that justification takes place simultaneously with spiritual birth through the faith OF Christ who predestined us from the foundation of the world. (Galatians 2:20) (Mat 25:34)
destroytheNWO2d 6 months ago
TD isn't true. Sinners have to turn to Jesus. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord - 2 Cor. 3:16-18.
boldforjesus 7 months ago
It's nice to find someone so young that is full of wisdom and truth. Keep on sharing the truth with the world.I was about to give up on understanding the bible until i found out a how to rightly divide the word of God. I was 33 before I found out how important it was to know the "Who,What, an When" Once you know the time line the whole bible starts making sense.
aaronmeyer76 8 months ago
@joejohnson043 - Islamic fatalism says God decrees something, and there's nothing we can do about it, or prevent. So, to wear seatbelts is useless - God has determined your time of death anyhow. When I visited Pakistan, they fill the mini-buses to the brim, people hanging out the site & tilting it - so I asked what happens if it tilts over & people die - one said, "Well then, it would be the will of Allah". No need for preventative responsibility. In hyperCalvanism - no need for missions.
gloryfree 8 months ago
religion is poison.
62rome 8 months ago
this whole thing is silly. Time is part of creation. God is not bound by time, He is outside of time. He sees our 'future' more clearly than we see the computer screen in front of our face. Just in the physics sense of what we can grasp: the past, present, & future would all be the same to Him. If He can see what you are doing now, He can equally see what you did yesterday, and tomorrow.... its the same outside of time. So He can give you choice AND know how you decide, at the same time...
joejohnson043 9 months ago
Good points, MC!
Calvies don't get it that God is Truth, so He Decrees Truth be Free. For Omniscience encompasses all that COULD and COULD NOT exist, so the question is will God CHOOSE for it to exist.
He Sovereignly Chooses to ENSURE all be free to exist or not, independently, theme of Eph1.
This fact routs Arminianism and Calvinism, who alike betray a childish grasp of God's Nature, as both 'camps' are stuck in a 1610 Dordt time bubble. :)
And they won't see that. :)
brainouty 9 months ago
This idea that people hate God before coming to Christ doesn't add up, not if it's made a universal descriptor. A lot of non-Christians put Christians to shame by their goodness; many of them produce a lot of good fruit, unlike a lot of Christians. A doctrine of grace that allows it to be truly *free grace* will "allow" God to be more fruitful in non-Christians than in Christians. Otherwise, the doctrine of free grace becomes another man-made legalistic idol that won't let God be God :( Just MO
5355vbxjbj76rvn 10 months ago
@5355vbxjbj76rvn Yeah, I think that point is over-stated. I know plenty of unsaved people (friends) and they don't hate God. They are in rebellion to a large extent. My best friend is convinced that the universe must have been created, through academic/scientific research, but she is unwilling to make the next step and is honest enough to admit it's because she doesn't like the idea of being responsible to God. I think that's a common reaction. There are God-haters - Dawkins et al
BogusDonut 9 months ago
I'll let you argue with God please read: Mt 28:19-20, 1 Cor 1:21, then Rom 1:16, Rom 10:14, Acts 2:40 sure, fallen man wants to do his own will but why would Peter tell them to repent in Acts 2:38 and why would Jesus tell those that if they didn't repent they would perish in Lk 13:3. Did Peter and Jesus both lie as it would be impossible for them to repent to begin with?
;
manofreedom 10 months ago
So God sent Christ to die for people who is ALREADY saved? HUH? And all of the newborns who haven't sinned yet die and go to an eternal devils hell? So at about 3:12 he says that God made a way of salvation possible. But, is this ''way'' that God made for one who is predestined to be saved or losr no matter what? Unless he wants to admit a predestined saved person can sin and be lost (which is against his eternal security doctrine). It's sad so many believe this false doctrine.
manofreedom 11 months ago
@manofreedom what is a tragedy is that people comment on things they apparently don't grasp. You don't seem to understand the reformend view of election. You have turned the word predestination into a bad word. What does it mean to predestine? or to elect? These words appear in the bible. What does jesus mean when he says, "no one can come to me, unless the father draws him"? Christ came to offer propitiation to those chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.
ctu74211 10 months ago
@ctu7421 According to Eph 1 we are chosen in Christ. What does it mean to be in Christ. According to good old reformed theology in Christ spoken of in Ephesians 1 refers to our union with Christ. We are chosen based on Christ in our union with Him. In Him we are also predestined, this was all done from eternity passed, which glorifies both the sovereignty, and knowledge of God. We are chosen, and predestined in Christ. No one can come, yes that is true, but John 12:32 says he draws everyone
MODERATECALVINISM 10 months ago
@ctu74211 the bigger tragedy is the neo-Calvinism cropping up in churches today. Luther & Calvin were wicked men. They may or may not have been saved, but either way their opinions and doctrine is NOT equal to scripture!
joejohnson043 9 months ago
@joejohnson043 no one's opinion is equal to doctrine! I would agree with you there. To say calvin and luther were evil men is misguided and foolish. Pray tell me, who are some of your heroes of the faith?
ctu74211 9 months ago
@ctu74211 it certainly ISN'T misguided or foolish. How many 'heretics' did Peter, Paul or John chase down in order to 'punish'? Just curious.....
joejohnson043 9 months ago
@manofreedom JESUS SAID MANY ARE CALLED, FEW ARE CHOSEN. The Called are MANY, but that comes down to YOU ANSWERING HIS CALL. It is NOT THE LORD'S WILL THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but HE KNOWS that MOST PEOPLE WILL REJECT HIM, because they love their DAMN (and I do mean "damn") SINS so damn much that they are NOT WILLING to TURN from them, neither become a LIVING SACRIFICE UNTO THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, because they LOVE their "evil deeds." FALLEN MAN LOVES SIN & HATES JUDGMENT & HATES REPENTANCE.
LPATWILLFILM 10 months ago
lots of crazy ppl in the world!
smashbeans 11 months ago
Decent response, I'd say. Good point that God declares us righteous, not after having purified us, but "while we were ungodly " in response to our faith, imperfect as it is(which is why it needs to keep growing). And yes, I agree that God's calling us and wooing us with his love is effectual enough as well. I see so many similarities between the fatalism of Islam and Hyper-Calvanists.
gloryfree 11 months ago
@gloryfree which part is similar? The following of a false prophet part?
joejohnson043 9 months ago
As far as heaven is from earth, so are God's ways from our ways and God's thoughts from our thoughts.
eyebeams2007 11 months ago
interesing !
zannnazu 1 year ago
you sounds so confused... I suggest you to read the Bible in context. Please learn this, and probably the book titled How to Read the Bible for all its Worth by Gordon Fee will be able to help you.
csmdeg 1 year ago
In Phil. 2:12 it says "work for your own salvation", so we will be saved according to our deeds, II Cor.5:10. If you want to be saved it's up to you. GOD gives you and me a chance to choose...if you want to be saveed, believe and obey HIS commandments..Jn. 14:15, if not disobey HIM..II Thes. 1:8-9 Always God Bless You guys. smile
wordofadvice1 1 year ago
@wordofadvice1 phil 2:12 says "continue to work OUT your salvation with fear a trembling"
It doesn't say work for your own salvation.
and Romans 10:9
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your hear that God raised him from the dead you will be saved."
You don't have to do anything for your salvation except tell God that you know that he sent his son Jesus to die for you and that he rose from the dead so that you could have life then you will be saved.
Baelfire02 1 year ago
Resolved: To Repent Of Modern <----- Google it! And learn what is really going on. Folks.
TCMAO0 1 year ago
(Pt.2) How does God know everything like that? It is simply through being of the greatest of seers. And having the most Holy Priesthood. God gained these things by being born in a physical world just as we did and progressed to where He is now and then had us as His children spiritually. Thus every being reproduces after their own kind.
neil2003 1 year ago
Those are some interesting topics in your video. Of course God has knowledge of the future, and yes there is still free will. He just knows the results of every path or choice we make and which ones we are most likely to take. The future is not set in stone. You can see this in Johah who was in the belly of a whale for 3 days. God did not destroy the people because they listened to Jonah and repented. So you can see free will there.
neil2003 1 year ago
cool video :D
darklighting25 1 year ago
Google Münchhausen Trilemma, it can provide good exercise, both for those that believe in God, and those that chose to not. In the end? Neither can be axiomatically proven, so let's focus on what CAN actually be somehow agreed, not something that is just impossible to agree on. Focus on what makes us similar, not what differentiates us.
Windwolf001 1 year ago
God has so loved the world that he sent his son.
And for those on Earth today he also displayed this love and mercy in the fact he allowed the sun to rise and set without taking your life
As for the elect He bestows His "Great love" in a way that he causes us to love him back
His great love is different then his Love for the world
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the GREAT LOVE with which he loved us
ScottDaMoose 1 year ago
Great video! And aren't you the same person who did that 5-part video on Jonathan Edward's "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God?" I kind of recognize your voice.
And who's that couple in this video? You and your wife?
ProphetLuong 1 year ago
John 3:16 says it simply...Salvation is a "gift". Define "Gift".
gift–noun
1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.
2. the act of giving.
3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift.
Supdude1964 1 year ago
Angels and pins?
awatson945 1 year ago
When Jesus came he preached to be as like that of a little child when you come to God. Please think about what this must mean. I think it's so mazing! God Bless You. smile
wordofadvice1 1 year ago
@wordofadvice1 Big Up!!!! very true
JAHFREE777 1 year ago
Calvin was a sub-human monster. The true God doesn't predestine ANYTHING, because She is benevolent. Your "God" is the REAL devil!
Go to Hel. Take a coat, it's cold. Kiss yo ho mama when you get there.
"To worship Christ is to fornicate with a dead Cockroach."
---Kalimite saying
ChurchOfKali66619 1 year ago
@ChurchOfKali66619 But Kali has so many arms, how do you know the right one didn't point to Christ? ;-) is the world riding on the back of a turtle? Or is it a lone orb (Job)? Which religion then would be more likely to be true? I thought Hinduism sought the truth, not grasping at error?
freeinallthings 1 year ago
@ChurchOfKali66619 Now that wasn't very nice what you said. I always worship God. God Bless You sweety! smile
wordofadvice1 1 year ago
I enjoyed the whole commentary, but especially around the 10 min mark. You make an excellent point that all Calvinists should deeply consider!
parsonrobert 1 year ago
thanks for the video
JeanBGerbier 1 year ago
God is dependent on true love actually... and true love is reason that, God the perfect being, needs human beings to love Him back, because one cannot experience love if he is alone, LOVE needs an object partner... it is the core reason that He send His only Son for WORLD not to CRUCIFY but to BELEIVE!.. That He might regain our love.
It is the failure of the people in Jesus time to see His heart that made them crucify the Christ.
-unificationism
unread1234 1 year ago
God is our Eternal True Parent... and we are suppose to be His children... it is becouse of True Love that He create us. And all He wants is to inherit this True Love...
What is true love?
True Love is a love that gives and gives and forgets that he given, and continues to give more....
True love is living for the sake of others, and not living for the sake of oneself...
-Rev. Sun Myung Moon
unread1234 1 year ago
How about worrying about our neighbours, loving others - rather than looking for some sort of scientific formula as a way of getting a ticket to heaven?
kentjesuita 1 year ago
my guess is that if a Calvinist actually faced God and He tried to explain how He did certain things it would be inevitable for the Calvinist to say something like:
"no God, thats not possible, for you are omniscient etc etc etc"
and He will say to you "does your human perception and human definitions decide what I am? or does even your ability to contemplate my being emanate from Me?"
stupaod 1 year ago 2
Romans 11:
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
stupaod 1 year ago
you might say to me "what does the creation of the world have to do with this?"
It has EVERYTHING to do with this
the debate is concerning the intent of God FROM THE BEGINNING
whether he INTENDED for us to fall or KNEW we would
stupaod 1 year ago
Calvinist's want to fit God into a neat and tidy little naturalistic little box to make themselves feel safe because they are incapable of understanding of the depths of God
They are natural, legalistic men incapable or unwilling to contemplate the complexities of God
were you there when God created the world?
why don't you explain to Him how he established the heavens and the earth since you know....
stupaod 1 year ago
God says:
Isaiah 55:
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.
Dr. White wants to talk about mental gymnastics as if he expects anything less when trying to discern the thoughts of the living God?
stupaod 1 year ago
You can not give up sin until you have sinned enough and thoroughly realized what is sin and why is it undesirable. This will bring you to accept the wisdom of God, surrender and give up sin as if you are throwing away an old shoe.
Not by repressing the tendency to sin.
Sins are only mistakes in a growing process. If a baby stumbles while learning to walk, a loving father or mother will not condemn him but help him to get up and walk again.
God is unconditional Love and Forgiveness.
VeggiePower303 1 year ago
my response is why are christians debating other christians? That's just stupid... Like Kobe and shaq fighting while playing on the Lakers...thats why they looked a mess? We're fighting each other why? We're on the same team
dkan3 1 year ago
@dkan3 I think it's good when we debate - we shouldn't just accept everything we hear. Use the Bible as the evidence, and you're guarenteed to end up with a heap of gold you were not expecting :))
cwaabaa 1 year ago
On this issue, James White is correct.
Having said that --- I don't blindly agree with everything he, or anybody says. For example, James White (to the best of my knowledge) does NOT hold the KJV Bible to be the purest Word of God given to the English-speaking world. I do believe the KJV is THE pure bible for the English-speaking world.
A different discussion, for another post perhaps... just to make a point.
God bless you guys!!
GreenCures 1 year ago
@GreenCures Thanks for your opinion, God Bless
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM, Thank you and btw I love the civility of the discourse.
God bless
GreenCures 1 year ago
"God is pure actuality."
What does that MEAN? I do not claim to know. Holy Scripture declares that God's ways are not our ways, and God's thoughts are not our thoughts---but much higher.
God is a mystery. I believe, even salvation has mystery to it. Read the VERY words of our Lord Jesus Christ on soteriology in John Chapter 3. When Nicodemus asks about how one can be saved, in verse 8 Christ speaks of the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell WHENCE
GreenCures 1 year ago
@GreenCures God is not contingent or dependent on anythings. That is what pure actually means..
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM,
K
GreenCures 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM
Was there a time in your life when you looked at the Bible and none of it made much sense?
BT3701 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM "God is..." Deal with that. Just that. That you believe something doesn't make it true. Given enough time people will come to believe Yoda is god or that Harry Potter is god. Wouldn't it be farcical for different sects of Yoda worshipers to argue over the nature of Yoda? You god botherers are funny.
awatson945 1 year ago
@awatson945 God is love. Yoda is a puppet who preaches new age religion. Poor in comparisons, you are.
freeinallthings 1 year ago
@freeinallthings I'm here to tell that God is real and I want you to know that he does love you and me. God bless You. smile
wordofadvice1 1 year ago
@wordofadvice1 Blessing back, word. You may wish to read my response to awatson if you were thinking I was merely being snotty about the Yoda comparison.
freeinallthings 1 year ago
@wordofadvice1 Scientologists are here to tell you Xenu is real. Mormons are here to tell you Joseph Smith is a prophet of god. Muslims are here to tell you that Jesus is not lord. Hindus are here to tell you that Shiva and or Vishnu are gods. Con artists are here to tell you that for a fee they can heal you or speak to your dead aunt. Suckers are born every minute. Enough to believe every bit of nonsense uttered just because someone is here to tell it.
awatson945 1 year ago
@awatson945 I can see what your saying hrere. But come on now! We have a deep understanding of so much more things then a bunch of B.S. We are not suckers. God made us in the image of his ownself and with that being said then we are completely full of knowledge that sometimes does not come from us. I think that the Holy Spirit comes into play here. It's that simple. God is the alpha and the omega. The beginning and the end of everything. Who can argue that. God Bless You.smile
wordofadvice1 1 year ago
@wordofadvice1 >>"God made us in the image of his ownself..."
Says who? Humans wrote the Bible. Look, I bought into the story myself. I'm no better than you. We all buy into falsehoods. If you choose to continue with your beliefs because they are precious to you that is fine. Just understand that all followers of false beliefs defend those beliefs, sometimes even with their lives. Nothing you have said justifies your belief. It;s just that, a belief without evidence.
awatson945 1 year ago
@awatson945 . The evidence is very clear! We all want good rather then bad just like our Father in heaven has given us free choice to do good or the oppisite. If we are truely like God in spirit then yes, we are like God who, as we can see through God's Ten commandments. God made it clear that it's not a belief without evidence and it will never be. We as one people all want good just as God wanted us to do his will which was all good.The evidence is in the Human Spirit! God Bless You. smile
wordofadvice1 1 year ago
@wordofadvice1 Your statement is begging the question. Your premises explicitly assume the conclusion. The entire argument is fallacious, The ten commandments say nothing about rape, slavery, pedophelia or other very serious immorality. When they were written god said it was okay to beat slaves, kill your children, kill a woman for being raped, etc. The ten Commandments say nothing about prohibiting cruel punishment. Nothing about life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
awatson945 1 year ago
@awatson945 Just curious, the levitical law consists of far more than the 10 commandments. Those are just the high points. There are over 600 laws. Rape is covered under fornication. Beating a slave is covered as well. Killing children is covered under "Thou shalt not kill" (Children are not excluded from that.)
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak Dude, I DIDN'T make this stuff up. Read your Bible. I included the relevant passages below.
>>"There are over 600 laws." Which iclude permission to beat your slaves (Exodus 21:20-21) ...and includes forcing a woman to marry her rapist. (Deuteronomy 22:28) ...the requirement to kill women who are raped but don't cry out (Deuteronomy 22:23-24) ...the requirement to kill unruly children (Exodus 21:15, 17)
I stand by what I said, your commentary changes nothing.
awatson945 1 year ago
@awatson945 I have read my Bible numerous times. Are you interested, at all, in context? You stated in your post that I previously responded too that the Bible does not address rape. I stated that it was covered by the laws that govern fornication. you have to addressed that. Each of your points can be refuted by the law as the one that I have currently referenced... but the REAL question is are you OPEN to being wrong or is your mind set.
Blessings,
Joe
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak ">> I previously responded too that the Bible does not address rape."
A.) NO I DIDN'T. I said the 10 commandments say nothing about rape.
B.) You ARE NOT addressing my points. Every claim I made I backed up. So what on earth is the problem?
C.) No, my points are not REFUTED simply because the Bible says something about those issues.
>>"...are you OPEN to being wrong "
I think you need to look in the mirror.
awatson945 1 year ago
@awatson945 I know full well what the content of the subject matter is within the CONTEXT of the law. There is,howvere, no point in discussing it with someone who is not themselves open to being wrong. You accuse me of beating around the bush. I asked you a very simple question and while you refused to answer it your arrogance answered for you.
You are unwilling to be wrong and thus, there is no point in further conversation.
jorsak 1 year ago