Sarum Candlemas 01

[AbidingDood]

trollololololol

[Samurai8989]

LOL!

Jason Bently has officially burst into hysterics! Thanks for the enlightening discussion, schismatic. Now go pick a fight with your fellow "believers" in the Holy Sepulcher. Maybe you all start so many fist fights in the Holy Sepulcher to conceal the sound of your Patriarchs striking matches to light your "holy fire" hoax. Even some Orthodox clergy have said it was totally fraudulent (Russian Orthodox Bishop Porphyrius). Hilarious!

[jasonbently2002]

When St. Gregory introduced the Sarum Rite to England through the efforts of St. Augustine of Canterbury, there WERE NO ORGANS. When the Franks conquered England in 1066, THEY FOUND NO ORGANS. So ORGANS ARE NOT INTENDED FOR THE SARUM RITE (Or the Rite of Trondheim, ITS SISTER RITE). Nor is this depiction nothing more than a REDACTED AND ADAPTED STYLIZED VERSION OF THE SARUM MASS.

[jasonbently2002]

The Tridentine Mass is inferior to even Novus Ordo and is bad liturgical theology

[sophiaofthrace]

There was no differentiation in the 3rd country between the Christians of Rome and the rest. So, yes, Britain is considered to have been both Orthodox Christian and Roman Catholic by those respective groups. The Schism didn't happen for several hundred years after that.

I know that Sarum is used in the Western Rite of the Orthodox Church. Not sure how far back it dates though. But the Stowe Missal, which did contain Latin, was earlier.

[thomaswilliamruston]

To anyone in the know, is this a historical recreation of the Sarum Rite? Was it being studied? Or is it being used as a prayerful liturgy? If so, is it a Roman Catholic service? If so, why Merton College chapel if it is an Anglican Chapel? Ooh so many questions. I love this service.

[Xenogeek2]

Britain was a Orthodox Christian country up to the Norman invasion, when Roman Catholicism was forced on the people. The Sarum Rite goes back to the introduction of Christianity into Britain during the 3rd century. In its proper form--which contains no Latin--it is the preeminent Western Orthodox Rite.

[Brunothelabrador]

This is complete rubbish, which only a total ignorance of history can excuse!

[TorreyGilday]

@Brunothelabrador What is "complete rubbish" about it??

[joesuaiden]

@Brunothelabrador I believe he means "in its proper form now", which is done primarily in English, since Orthodoxy uses the language of the people. I would assume he knew it was originally in Latin.

[jasonbently2002]

@Brunothelabrador Not so much rubbish, for what was left of the Saxon royalty of England fled to Norway, which WAS OUT OF COMMUNION WITH ROME, to RUSSIA WHERE THEY INTERMARRIED WITH THE HOUSE OF RURIK AND TO CONSTANTINOPLE WHERE THEY JOINED THE EMEPEROR's ELITE VARANGIAN GUARD.

[aznmessenjah]

@Brunothelabrador Well, they could be considered Orthodox in as much as the Great Schism had not happened yet...

[MrLamontSanford]

@Xenogeek2 Sorry to say it, but that is rather ignorant to claim BRITAIN as a place of the Orthodox church! The Sarum rite is far more similar to the Latin rite, and in fact, many litugists say it is simply another form of it.

[jasonbently2002]

@Xenogeek2 Hmm, not quite, Sarum's antecedents probably date from St. Augustine of Canterbury and St. Gregory the Great but what makes this rite so beautiful is survivals in its ordo of the older Gallican rite of Britain which were influenced by the Irish church and the Gallican church.

[PaterAugustinus]

@Xenogeek2 Friend, I am an Orthodox Christian, and I am a monk of the Western Rite (though I was formed for four years in a (Greek) Eastern Rite monastery. I admire your zeal for the faith, but some of what you say here is inaccurate. We do not know exactly how the Liturgy was celebrated in England long ago; a recognizably "Sarumesque" Rite probably dates to the early 7th century, when St. Augustine arrived and mixed Gallican, Roman and native customs, with Pope St. Gregory's permission.

[PaterAugustinus]

@Xenogeek2 That being said, the "Sarum Rite" is named for the diocese of Sarum (Salisbury), which was not created until after the Norman Invasion. So the "Sarum Rite" per se, technically, is by definition a Norman rite. However, we know that it accurately reflects pre-schism practices from comparison with numerous other liturgical books from before that time. The Norman invasion brought no change in doctrine, and very little change in practice. Mostly, it brought a change in leadership.

[PaterAugustinus]

@Xenogeek2 Finally, the Sarum was always done only in Latin. There is some suggestion that the "Bidding Prayers" may have sometimes been done in the vernacular, but otherwise Latin was used exclusively. Latin is a hugely important language of the Orthodox Patrimony, like Greek and Slavonic, and was used by many Saints and Church Fathers.

We Orthodox Christians can be proud of the beautiful Latin heritage of the Church as it once was, while realizing that it later became corrupted.

[BenjaminNicholaus]

What temperament is the organ tuned in?

[thethomasian17]

are they Roman Catholic priests?

[Brunothelabrador]

Yes

[Silverdaddy101]

God knows, the Roman liturgy in the UK is in dire need of an overhaul. I attended one in a parish near Farnham, and barely recognized it.

I went to the Anglican Church the next week.

At least they insist on order and beauty in their liturgies.

What's this slop Romans throw before God, sunday after sunday?

[dacatholicbandorgan]

With the Moto Propio this can be changed. I advise you write your pastor about getting the Tridentine Mass at your Parish as well.

[chrisshwada]

Sarum rite was developed under catholicism. It was the anglican church that broke away and claimed it as their own since the roman church lost its power. Even though it is originally catholic people consider it anglican when its historically not.

[tm37gl]

Would you please list all the organ pieces being played in this occasion? I study Tudor organ music and its use on liturgy.

[Brunothelabrador]

Sorry; I've no idea.

[jasonbently2002]

@tm37gl Organ in church music is an UGLY Frankish deformation of worship and ANATHEMIZED BY THE SEVENTH ECUMENCIAL COUNCIL. Moreover, its use is a direct result of Frankish barbarism for they so marvelled at the gift the Roman Emperor of Byzantium gave to Charlemagne at his coronation that they were unclear as to what to do with it. Since they were totally illiterate and UNREAD they did not understand that, yes, one was used AT THE VLACHERNAE PALACE, the IMPERIAL RESIDENCE BUT NOT AT THE CHAPEL

[christianvs1]

@jasonbently2002 Utterly incorrect mate: the organ (hydraulis, organos, etc.) was used by the Egyptian Pharonic courts, then the Greek Empire under Alexander; Roman and Byzantine usage derived from this. It was used to herald the entry of the Emperor into the Basilica. This was easily transfered to the Roman Christian Church after Emperor Constantine convered the Roman Empire to Christ in c.312AD. Do take care to effect good scholarship prior to announcing your flawed oppinions in this regard.

[jasonbently2002]

@christianvs1 Actually, the first pipe organs originated in ancient Greece, but no, you make the same ignorant and uninformed comments! NO, the organs WERE USED IN THE VLACHERNAE PALACE THRONE ROOM BUT NOT IN THE CHURCH.The account is the result of the LIMITED understanding of Latins to differentiate between the PALACE and the CHURCH connected to it.So, "mate," learn something. THE SEVENTH ECUMENICAL COUNCIL FORBIDS MUSICAL ACCOMPANIMENT IN CHURCH AND REFLECTS THE CHURCH's APOSTOLIC PRACTICE.

[Samurai8989]

@jasonbently2002

The 7th Ecumenical Council (i.e. The 2nd Council of Nicaea - 787 AD) mentions absolutely nothing in regard to music of any kind. What exactly are you referring to specifically?

[jasonbently2002]

@Samurai8989 No, IT SPECIFICALLY FORBIDS musical accompaniment in worship, but the Franks were too ignorant to get that. Or did you NOT KNOW that the CHURCH, not the papal cult, HAS NO CHURCHES IN TRADITIONAL ORTHODOX COUNTRIES WHICH HAVE ORGANS?! IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE FORBIDDEN AND ONLY MUSIC "ORGANUM," IE ACAPELLA IS CANONICALLY PERMITTED. So keep your wretched organs on your Doors album or at the ballpark!

[Samurai8989]

@jasonbently2002

... Once again: where exactly does the 2nd Council of Nicaea forbid either the organ or any form of musical accompaniment? I have the text of the Council right here in front of me and it is wholly silent on this issue. Can you respond to this without insults and provide a simple citation?

[jasonbently2002]

@Samurai8989THEN WHY ARE SKIRTING THE ISSUE THAT ORGANUM IS THE PRACTICE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, IE THE ORTHODOX CHURCH,heretic?But I doubt you have the FULL TEXT AND CANONS IN FRONT OF YOU.Ever heard of the Pedalion?!Most of the texts on the Seven Ecumenical Councils available online ARE REDACTED.So yeah THE SEVENTH ECUMENICAL COUNCIL FORBID MUSICAL ACCOMPANIMENT.Leave your barbaric organs for funeral parlors and droppin acid!If I supply you with the Canon, will you repent and become Orthodox?

[Samurai8989]

@jasonbently2002

You're a pretty disgusting person. I wont waste any more time dealing with an irrational, ceasaropapist schismatic. Why don't you go start a fist fight in the Holy Sepulcher with the rest of your comrades.

[jasonbently2002]

@Samurai8989 I take it you won't repent of your heresy, will you BLASPHEMER? Oh yeah, tell all your apologist friends that texts WILL BE PROVIDED IF THEY AGREE TO REPENT OF THEIR HERESIES AND THE BLASPHEMOUS PAPAL CULT AND JOIN THEMSELVES TO THE TRUE CHURCH ORTHODOXY. Yeah, the Church of the Ecumenical Councils DID NOT HAVE A PAPAL DESPOT ATOP OF IT, but existed in conciliarity, unlike that cult of yours. The Holy Fire DESCENDS TO US AND NOT YOU HERETICS AT THE HOLY SEPULCHRE WHICH WE BUILT.

[jasonbently2002]

@Samurai8989 So disgusting is some azymite BLASPHEMER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH HIS TRADITION OF CLOWN AND GUITAR MASSES vandalizing Christian worship with A SECULAR INSTRUMENT because some Frankish ERSATZ caesaropapist WAS TO IGNORANT TO REALIZE THAT THE ORGAN GIFTED TO HIM WAS USED AT THE BYZANTINE IMPERIAL COURT AND NOT IN THE CHURCH.Then again, you don't even know where your Mass comes from and what its roots are nor do you understand the Mystagogy of the Eucharist.Ignorant heretical vandals.

[jasonbently2002]

@christianvs1 Nothing is uglier and more sectarian than an organ in a church. SAVE IT FOR BALLPARKS AND 60s ROCK AND ROLL! THIS VULGAR BARBARIAN VANDALISM IS UNWORTHY OF A CHRISTIAN CHURCH!

[AulicExclusiva]

In Medieval England, tabernacles were often receptacles (often in the shape of a dove) hanging by chains ABOVE the altar. The cupboard-like tabernacles resting ON the altar were largely unknown.

Nor was the use of Sarum used throughout England. There were also local uses at Canterbury and York. They are all variants of the Gallican rite.

[DanVilAl]

Yes, and maybe there were a few more, but I'd rather say that they were variants of the Roman rite influenced by the Gallican rite or by Celtic rite elements.

[TrainmasterCurt]

The Holy Sacrament was housed in a Dove commonly called a "Columba" suspended by chains over the High Altar before the 16th century, when tabernacles on or behind the High Altar started coming into use, some parishes like mine, would even have a large "Aumbreye" or Wall Tabernacle to house not only the Blessed Sacrament, but also the Holy Oil Stocks and Chrism, it was commonly on the North Side of the High Altar, during Mass, we use a Humeral Veil to bring the communion hosts to the Altar

[Brunothelabrador]

Tabernacles did not appear on altars until after this period (by and large). This was not a C of E do but a Catholic (Roman) one.

[Manofhopeandglory]

cheers ^^

[Manofhopeandglory]

I fail to see a tabernacle in the middle of the altar. Is this a CofE service or does the Sarum Rite not have the tabernacle in the Ad Orient Altar?

PS: Sorry - but they say there is no such thing as a stupid question.

:-)

[Brunothelabrador]

It is Gregorian chant, but varies in detail—text and music— from the 'Tridentine' chant of the Graduale Romanum.

[rpgabc123]

I guess I should say, does the Sarum Rite use Gregorian Chant? My brain isn't working today after all of those exams.

[rpgabc123]

I attend the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, and I must say that the Sarum Mass is beautiful, one question, are the chant tones (ie the prayers that the priest chants and the songs/propers that are sung by the choir, actually the same in the Sarum Rite as they are in the Traditional Latin Mass (Tridentine Mass))

[lanivil0209]

No, be cause they use a variation of the gregorian chant that is more old than the we know now.

[TrainmasterCurt]

I love it, true reverent liturgy!!

[cgh21]

Yes! Praise be!

[pookerville]

Brilliant! Please keep the rest of them coming! We'd all like to see the Sarum Rite in its entirety!