Is God a Trinity? (Debate - Part 2 of 12)

[CarmineFragione]

Jesus is materially God, not a being besides God, God is the Only Actor acting out the appearances that show Character of being the Father, God appeared to Moses as the Father. God appeared to Israel as Jesus the Son, and God appears to us now as the Holy Spirit, which for God is the Same Being , but as a Talented Intelligent Self Willed Sovereign King and Lord, God is able to appear as Jesus, appear as Father, appear as Holy Spirit, all taking One Name Jesus Christ, He is One Being

[CarmineFragione]

Person is a Behavioral Title, one must act to be known as a Person. Being is Substantial at rest without any acting behavior, there is a Being of Substance capable of acting. The Human Being, like God is One Being, has Talent to act out as many persons of character. God chose to appear as Three Vital Persons to explain the Mystery , God is the Father, God is the Son , God is the Holy Spirit, which is One Being acting out the parts for which each saved human being must assemble to be Holy One

[CarmineFragione]

The Name of Jesus is God, Moses took Hoshea the son of Nun, a Levite like Moses, and Moses dubbed Hoshea with a new Name. Taking Yahweh's Name to "Yah" for God, and attaching that to Hoshea , which is Hebrew for Salvation, then the Name given of Moses is YAH' HOSHEA or God is Savior, which contracted to Yahshua or Yehshua and finally contracted again to YESHUA which in Greek is Ieosus or Jesus in Latin. So Jesus had God's own Name as the Prefix. to Salvation YESHUA.

[CarmineFragione]

Before Adam fell by Sin , Adam walked with God, that means God the Invisible Father ,was inside the body of Adam, such that Adam was directly aware that he had his own mind, but inside his mind, was also a Conscience of another Mind, which is God, which went in Adam's body everywhere Adam physically went. When Adam sinned . God left Adam's body and they separated. So this is an example of Father in the Son as a Cabal Unity, with the Spirit, that make a Trinity which inseparable is One.

[CarmineFragione]

God absolutely gave a clue about the Trinity in the Torah, In Exodus 4:16 God is appearing to Moses, face to face, not to Aaron, But Moses cannot speak, so God proposes a Division of Labor using then a Trinity or a Cabal of Three Persons who together accomplish the Feat of the One. God shows Moses the Patterns in the Heavens to Reveal the Law, then Moses puts the words into Aaron's mouth and Aaron then speaks as God to the People, and Moses is as God to Aaron to give the Word to speak. 3=1

[CarmineFragione]

This is why Jesus was shown to be Transfigured on the Mount, in the Gospel story , Jesus is a Transformative Character, He is not limited as a Substance, such as the spots seen on the body of a Leopard, the Leopard cannot change his spots, But with the Ethereal Nature of the Mind, a man can change the Person he appears to be ,and so change his Act. God acts as Father, God acts as Son God acts as Holy Ghost, choosing these three specific roles, for a purpose of Salvation ,but God can be All

[CarmineFragione]

God is Divine, that does not mean "supernatural" no, Divine means Division within the One to reduce Himself to Many until All are found within Him. God has Intelligence to choose how to appear and what part to play as a special supplication to humanity. Being a Creator of the Universe is Mathematical, but not Passionate. To give Passion is to cover Relationships coming out of only one Source of all things, Himself, So Divine means inwardly God has Talent to be Three Persons to Act

[CarmineFragione]

An Author who wishes to present His Works upon His own Stage, can be the Sole Actor as well as Author, He can play Himself on Stage. He can play any character appearing in the story by adjusting his voice and wearing a mask or costume. He can play Second Person Tense to Himself the First Person speaking, to be the Narrator who speaks to introduce Himself on Stage and then changes to be Himself speaking as direct Verse. So God is Divine to be Father, Son, Holy Ghost as the Story Teller

[CarmineFragione]

So God without a Covering up of flesh and blood was appearing as the Father to Moses, Deuteronomy 32:6 "Is not God your Father ?" So as soon as God adjusts from the Limitless Infinity of All ,to a specific Title of Father, it legally implies God has a Son, and a Son is not then a "Creature" but a renewal of the Father in another material form, the Son. And so Moses showed God was Divine to be Father, which is more than "Creator" which is impersonal to human condition. and God is Son

[CarmineFragione]

The Trinity explains that unlike a Leopard, which cannot change it's spots, An Intelligent Being is capable in mind and spirit to be more than one person , The Personna or Personhood, was a Behavioral Verbal Description of that Substance which was the Being. The Being does not change, but an Intelligent Being changes the Mind at Will. A Judge alters his behavior when he puts on the Black Robe, He transfigures into a Person of the Robe, which when the robe is taken off, he retires the Person

[CarmineFragione]

After realizing the Bible itself required One to speak as Three Person Tenses to get the story delivered to the audience so they understand. God gave an example of the Tree in Genesis 1:12 to be Divine in Appearance to have Three Vital parts, Natural Tree would die, but the Fruit bore the Seed, and the Fruit worked to moisten the dry ground to plant the seed. The Seed was equal to the Tree, in that it was the Resurrection of the Tree itself carried by Information the Seed held. 3=1 Trinity.

[CarmineFragione]

The Ancient Story Teller, used Three Person Tenses of speech. He spoke as the narrator about the subject of the story introducing each player. He spoke as Himself, in the case of God, a direct quotation coming out of the verse, after the Teacher announces God will speak. Then the same One Story Teller, with one mouth, also spoke for all the people who play a part in the story, using costumes, voices and technique. So God is a Trinitarian Speaker, as the Ancient Story Teller had Talent

[CarmineFragione]

The Torah Bible opens with the Second Person speaking tense as Narrator, saying "In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth" So before the Torah , God was already Divine in Personhood to deal with Three Person Tenses of speech. Third Person is the Spirit, the Second is the Teacher who opens Genesis speaking ABOUT GOD the Creator, and then God speaks in the First Person tense "Let there be light" So the Torah was written for One to speak as Three Person of Tenses. 3=1

[CarmineFragione]

If God is in the human, the human is God. Humans are fallen, but if not fallen, then the relationship of Adam to God before the Fall was , Adam was God, God was Adam, they shared their personal existence in each other, without separation. The ultimate purpose of God to appear as Jesus was to show the Way God would finally bring us back from exile to restore us to God, such that in the end every human is God. Negating Sin, every drop of Water is the same Collective Noun as all the Water.

[CarmineFragione]

God is at least the Trinity , if not taken as All, or One, God deliberately applied Himself to the Trinity. The Torah is spoken out in Three Person Tenses of Speech , the Tree given in Genesis 1:12 is Divined as Natural Plant, the Fruit and the Seed, And God appeared out of the All moving from Infinite to the Definite One, to make an appearance that Israel could appreciate. Jesus speaks of God as Father as Holy Spirit and permits people to worship Jesus as God, So the Trinity is God appearing

[thelambsservant777]

The fact is the One True God in Scripture is the God of Jesus as well. To deny this, is to deny the very words of Jesus and the very foundation of Biblical revelation in every single sense of the word. Unfortunately, ppl. will never believe because they wont accept the words of Jesus Himself. They call him master and Lord, yet will never accept His own testimony.

[thelambsservant777]

Btw, Jesus being the Image of God is consistent with Him being the New Adam. Mankind is the image of the invisable God. Jesus is a superior image of the invisible God. The image is not the God ontologicaly. People are so stupid, the Septuigant says that Adam was the image of God the exact same greek word used for Christ in the NT. 

[thelambsservant777]

This whole concept of Immanuel or God with us, must be understood by the historical and Biblical context. Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. So much for the idea the people in Gospel of Luke believing that this Prophet of God was God Himself. No, they understood that the Prophet brought God with him.

[ServetusTheology]

Oh ok, so I Corinthians 8:6 which says there is but one God, the Father...thats just a popular opinion and we shouldn't believe it just because of that??? Well how about we believe it because its the BIBLE!

[Danielezerable]

@ServetusTheology John 14:10 Jesus was the embodiment of the Father. John 14:6 No one goes to the Father except through Jesus. John 6:65 No one can go to the Son except through the Father. Revelation 1:8 Jesus existed since the beginning of time. Revelation 21:6 Jesus is from the beginning.

Jesus is the embodiment of the Father and has given us the Holy Spirit to be filled with.

[jathomas901]

so Immanuel obviously means nothing to this guy.. And also that "Christ is the image of the invisible God" verse I guess doesnt apply to his theory either... What a fool.

[Thia911]

if one would read zech. 14 in full you will see that the King, the LORD Almighty is indeed Jesus. you can't just read scriptures, you have to STUDY them through the guidence of the Spirit of God. Jesus is NOT simply a mere rep. like moses, He is God Almighty who loved the world so much that He became flesh and dwelt among us so that He could die and be the sacrifice we desperately needed. who can better rep God then God. Jesus's Name is above ALL names becus He is Amighty God! its that simple.

[TJD7777777]

type in google: " tj7 - Testemunhas de Jeová Defendidas ".

( Jehovah's Witnesses Defended, site of Brazil )

Use the automatic translator google.

[upNyaBizznizz]

King James scholars which translated the Torah were not allowed to use the name of Yahweh, so they superimposed the word, "God, Most High, the Almighty, etc, into scripture. There is only 1 Yahweh, but many gods. Psalms 82:6 " I Yahweh said, you all are gods and all of you are the children of the Most High!" Jesus is not the only son of Yahweh. he is the only son of Yahweh created in Heaven! but we are all gods by Yahweh's own Authority. Yahweh created his children in his likeness and image.

[upNyaBizznizz]

A god only describes what race of Eternal being Yahweh is exactly. When we die, do we not inherit Eternal life when Jesus walks each brother & sister to the Tree of Eternal life to eat of its fruit? Yes! bc that teaching is in John's Revelation. We are actually immortal gods by Father's own creation, that is why he comes down from heaven to visit the Earth, to see if any have understanding. If the Father is an Almighty God then his children are gods bc he created them that way! wake up you guys

[oombuddah]

I'm shocked that people still think God could be so abstract in his nature in regards to his sense of oneness.

[epic103]

Plus, the question in the 1st century was, is Jesus the Christ! Not GOD, the Christ! The Jews opposed Jesus in the 1st century because he claimed to be the Messiah(Christ)! They rejected the fact that Jesus claimed to be the Messiah! Jesus is the Christ(Anointed), not GOD ALMIGHTY!

Jesus didn't anoint himself, GOD anointed him! Acts.10:38

[42cody1]

@epic103 The Jews opposed Christ because he called God his Father thus making himself Equal in Nature, Rank, and Authority as God. Jn 5:18 Did Jesus believe this also why of course he claims to be The First and the Last, Shepard. There can not logically be two Firsts can there- except Jesus be the same God? If Jesus didnt claim to be Equal then he would have at least claimed to be 2nd or an addiional Shepard, but says he was the ONE SHEPARD, this would exclude the Father in PS 23, illogical.

[42cody1]

@epic103 Jehovah sent Jehovah to dwell among men. This is what scripture atest to Zacheriah 2:10-12. Jehovah was to be pierced Zacheriah 12:10, Jesus was pierced. John 19:37 John the baptist prepared a way for Jehovah our God in the desert. Is 40:3. John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus John 1 and declares that Jesus was BEFORE him. So logic dictates that Jesus was the GOD whom John prepared the way for in Is40:3. for God's blood purchased the church. Acts 20:28. its easy. My Friend

[42cody1]

Epic you claim not to a Jehovah witness but you use everyone of their eak arguments thus showing your identity of belief. meaning you are a Jehovah Witness, they use the same illogical arguments as you. No doubt you are a Jehovah Witness and you know if you admit to it which you wont you know I will tear the WT apart for their own dishonest deeds all in the name of Jehovah, I know you will deny it, but It is ever obvious that you are and if you arent then do tell as I have asked repeatedly.

[epic103]

Plus, Jesus ends any controversy about the trinity in John.20:17, tell my brothers that i ascend to my Father and to your Father, and to MY GOD and to YOUR GOD!

This verse has nothing to do with Jesus being a human, because Jesus was about to ascend to Heaven to be with HIS GOD!

Jesus never said he was going to Heaven TO BE GOD, he said he was going to be WITH HIS GOD! Whether Jesus is on Earth or in Heaven it doesn't matter, he still has a GOD!

[42cody1]

@epic103 you are misundertsanding the verse,go tell my BROTHERS, according to the Flesh, he is speaking in a servants form, something that he had to add to his initial Nature, his initial Nature was God, and shared prior to coming to the Earth shared Glory along side the Father John 17:5 Shared glory equates Jesus as Yahweh before coming a man this is consistent with scripture that YAHWEH SENT YAHWEH. Zach 2:10-12. Jesus being a lesser lord isnt consistent nor scriptural.

[42cody1]

@epic103 this verse has nothing to do with Jesus being a human - Epic-that is rediulous Jesus retained his humanity after the resurrection by many proofs. It is the Son of Man that is given authority and a eternal kingdom that will never end as the angel promised Mary. Jesus being subject to God that he may be all in all- subjectivity has nothing to due with inferiority of nature, Jesus will always be man and God. you are accepting his humanity but not his deity COL 2:9 .

[42cody1]

@epic103 Jesus didnt have aGOD until he took a servants form. Before then he was God Phil 2:5-11 sharing Glory with the Father John 17:5-which is ironically in context with John 17:3. God sent God Zach 2:10-12 God was to be pierced Zach 12:10 and he was Jesus followed behind John the Baptist who prepared the way for God Isaiah 40:3. So coming to Earth he didnt have need of having a God because he was GOD. John 1:1 thus shared in GodsGlory John 17:5

[42cody1]

John 17:3 isnt saying that the Father is exclusively the True God no more than 1 Cor states that Jesus is the One Lord. If the Father is Lord also when the Bible says that Jesus is the ONE Lord then we must not take that John 17:3 mean that Jesus isnt the True God especially when we have the TRUE God declares Jesus is the Lord who made heaven and Earth Hebrews 1:10-12, and that he is the God who the Angels are to worship. Hebrews 1:6, 8. Thomas said Jesus was his Lord and God connect Dots

[epic103]

In other words, Jesus is the Christ of the LORD(GOD)!

The GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the GOD(LORD) of our forefathers has glorified His servant - Jesus! Acts.3:13

From this man's(David) seed, according to the promise, GOD raise up for Israel a savior - Jesus! Acts.13:23

Jesus was sent forth by the LORD(GOD). John.17:3

[42cody1]

@epic103 I understand what you are saying Trinitarians dont have a problem with the humanity of christ but that is only part of the picture. Jesus is equated as YAHWEH =LORD by Paul Romans10:9-13, cross reference Joel 2:32, so yes the Father and Son are different persons however theyare the same God. I and the Father are one. Both carry the same attributes of eternal nature Micah 5:2.Both are called God, Lord. They are the same Yahweh collectively. what is true of the Father is also true 4 Jesus

[42cody1]

@42cody1 we both know that Jesus is the Father's Lord and Christ and that Jesus had a God with whom he worship while he was in a servants form, the humanity of Jesus is well established and these verses you are posting are all explained under his humanity- so we need not kep running back to that as you are doing Trinitarians agree with al these things.Lets move on to the questions I posted such as what ministry are you with and support and your educational level-that is if you are a lone ranger

[epic103]

@42cody1

LOL!!! You keep missing the point!

Lord Jesus, and the LORD(GOD) are not the same!

Being Lord doesn't mean, The LORD(GOD)!

The Father(Yahweh) is THE LORD(GOD)!

That's why Jesus called the Father, the ONLY TRUE GOD and the LORD of Heaven & Earth! Because the Father is Yahweh(GOD)!

Even in his exalted state in Heaven Jesus continues to have a GOD! They're never the same!

After all is said and done, Jesus turns everything over to HIS GOD, so that GOD can be all things!

[42cody1]

@epic103 actually you missed the point I said Jesus was equated as the Saving Yahweh of joel 2:32 in Romans 10:13, this is consistent with Scripture that JESUS was EQUAL!! to God john 5:18. LORD in Romans 10:13 equates Jesusas Yahweh, which would be blapshemous. Jesus as Yahweh accpets Equal worship from angelic host something only YAHWEH receives - John 5:23 the Son is to receive Equal Honor, or it dishonors The Father as you are doing. Why because he is Equal in Rank, Nature, and Authority.

[epic103]

@42cody1

No!!!

1st. John.5:18 doesn't say that Jesus is EQUAL to GOD! That was the reasoning of the Jews that were out to kill Jesus! They said it, not Jesus!

2nd. We are saved through Jesus, because Jesus is the Christ(Anointed), the One that GOD ALMIGHTY sent forth! If we reject the fact that Jesus is the Messiah, then we won't have GOD!

From this man's(David) seed, according to the promise, GOD(Yahweh) raised up for Israel a savior - Jesus!  Acts.13:23

[42cody1]

@epic103 nope it is John s commentary under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit declaring why they wanted him dead- John had just said he was God, and Thomas's God and LORD jOHN 1:1 AND jOHN 20:28

[42cody1]

@epic103 Jesus' actions said it when he declared that he was to be honored even as the Father. jOHN 5:23, Any interpretation of lesser HONOR being applied to Christ is the false christ and a false Christ wont save plus it dishonors the FATHER, to not honor him equally for he was equal John 5:23, 18

[42cody1]

@epic103 Trinitarians nor myself deny the messiah was Christ. Unless you equate Jesus as the saving Yahweh of JOEL 2:32 You have no God or life, for unless yopu believe as Jesus said that IAM, YOU SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS. AND THE IAM IS GOD.

[epic103]

@42cody1

LOL!!! Ever time we see the phrase "i am" doesn't mean, THE I AM!

We have already gone over this! In John.8:58, Jesus doesn't call himself THE I AM! He simply said, before Abraham, i am! NOT,  I AM THE I AM! There is a big difference!

GOD(Yahweh) said to Moses, tell them THE I AM has sent you! I AM WHO I AM!

Jesus doesn't say anything like that! The context of Exodus.3:14 and John.8:58 is completely different!

THE I AM(True GOD) sent Jesus! John.17:3

[42cody1]

@epic103 Yes "I am" doesnt always mean the I AM, I agree with you as I do alot on some issues, but in this case it is significant due to the context. The context is different I agree again, but the Same meaning is applied that Jesus contrasted his uncreated nature to that of Abrahams created Nature, thusthat is why they wanted to stone him. In the context of Exodus 3:14 I AM was used to show that Yahweh was the self existent one thus eternal. Yes the True God sent Jesus Amen.

[epic103]

@42cody1

1st. i am not mad! Even though we disagree, i like you!

2nd. Jesus said, GOD(Yahweh) is our Father too!

3rd So the fact that GOD is Jesus' Father doesn't make Jesus equal, because GOD is our Father! GOD is the Father of all!

There is 1 GOD and Father of all, who is over all, and who is in us all! Eph.4:6

[42cody1]

@epic103 Epic when was God called the Father originally in scripture? I think you and I have now made some head way with respect to the other and this means alot to me. Thank you for your kind comments, I do see where you are coming from with what you are presenting, Ido although feel the whole of scripture adds more to the truth of what you are saying. I know the Father is the true God - I believe that the true God is Yahweh and I believe Yahweh sent Yahweh. Zach 2:10-12 True God sent True God.

[42cody1]

@epic103 it makes me feel good that we showed Godly love to one another on this forum. Thank you for blessing my day.

[epic103]

@42cody1

The Father alone is the LORD(Yahweh).

Lets look at Zechariah.14:7, It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime - a day only known by the LORD(Yahweh). In other words, only Yahweh knows!

Jesus said, that day and that hour no one knows, not the Angels in Heaven, and not the Son(Jesus), ONLY the Father knows! Matt.24:36

Only the Father knows because, He is Yahweh!

That's why Jesus calls the Father, the LORD of Heaven and Earth! Yahweh is the Father!

[42cody1]

@epic103 Calm down, not trying to make you so mad. we are just reasoning togther or trying to. It is important that we remain loving and Godly toward one another. It would be helpful for you to start answeng all the questions I have asked instead of acting s though you havent heard me.lets be courteous and lets answer systmaically eachothers questions fully before jumping all over the place. God is not the author of confusion- lets be Godly and orderly- if you cant be then why discuss anything.

[42cody1]

@epic103 I actually agree as a trinitarian with your post.lol

[42cody1]

John 17:3 isnt saying that the Father is exclusively the True God no more than 1 Cor states that Jesus is the One Lord. If the Father is Lord also when the Bible says that Jesus is the ONE Lord then we must not take that John 17:3 mean that Jesus isnt the True God especially when we have the TRUE God declares Jesus is the Lord who made heaven and Earth Hebrews 1:10-12, and that he is the God who the Angels are to worship. Hebrews 1:6, 8. Thomas said Jesus was his Lord and God connect the Dots!!

[epic103]

@42cody1

No, Father GOD is THE LORD(GOD)! Lord Jesus, and LORD(GOD) are 2 different things!

According to Jesus, the Father(LORD) is the ONLY TRUE GOD!

Also, Jesus said the Father is the LORD of Heaven and Earth!

Father GOD(Yahweh) is the GOD of Jesus!

Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! 1Peter.1:3

The kings of the earth take their stand,  and the rulers gather together against the LORD(GOD), and against His Christ(Jesus). Acts.4:26

[42cody1]

@epic103 Epic what i am noticing from you is a pattern of not dealing with scriptures or questions that are being posted then you run back to the same statements as you made before - I already said that Trinitarians believe that Christ according to the flesh to be given whatever he received. you and I already covered all this. Jesus according to the flesh had a God whom he worshipped, amen. Jesus as God raised his body from death.John 2:19-22. Jesus as God was worshipped Hebrews 1:8, John 20:28

[42cody1]

The True God is the First and the Last Isaiah 44:6, but Jesus says he is the First and the Last a title for ONLY THE TRUE GOD. cant be two who were first unless the Doctrine of Trinity be true. Mankind cant have two Shepards Psmalms 23 and John 10:6,16 Unless the Doctrine of the Trinity be true.

[42cody1]

John 17:3 no more excludes Jesus as the True God than 1 Corinthians excludes the Father from being the ONE LORD. Jesus said I and the Father are ONE. John 10:30, then they picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said also that he was the ONE shepard John 10:16 does this exclude the Father from being mankinds Shepard? of course not! The True God claimed he was the First and the Last Isaiah 44:6, Does this exclude Jesus from being the First and Last Rev 1:17 of course not. How silly that would be.

[42cody1]

We cannot look to one verse to see it speak for itself because one verse doesn't teach the whole view of the identity of God. If a person builds for himself a theology off one verse then he then cannot connect the other dots that speak or allude further about the identity of God. It is a contradiction for a person who builds a theology around one verse and then say "Connect the Dotts!!! because he has already decided all the other Dotts are obsolete. This is irresponsible and ungoldly.

[42cody1]

In the new testament Jesus is the Lord who laid the foundation of the Earth and the Heavens are the work of his hands So according to the Father (YHWH)Jesus was the Lord who did this Hebrws1:10-12. Lets connect the Dots Jesus said if you do not Honor the Son even as you Honor the Father- then you dishonor the one who sent him "the Father". John 5:23,&18 Jesus deserves the same Worshipful Honor even as the Father receives Why? Because Jesus claimed that God was his Father making himself =to God!

[epic103]

In the Old Testament Yahweh(GOD) is the LORD of Heaven and Earth!

Jesus calls the Father, LORD of Heaven and Earth!

Connect the dots!!!

So according to Jesus, the Father(Yahweh) alone is the LORD of Heaven and Earth and the ONLY TRUE GOD!

There is only one GOD and Father of all, who is over all, and who is in all!

[42cody1]

Trinitarians do believe that Jesus while a man on Earth- being human said he had a God for he was also flesh.This is why he said the Father is Greater than I. John 14:28. Trinitarians accept the servitude of Christ in his human nature but also accept his Equality with the Father in his deity Nature, thus Christ was Equal in Nature, when he claimed he was the Son of God it was a claim to Deity. Christ had 2 natures Son of Man and Son of God.

[42cody1]

Chris please know and understand that I am totally aware of the disticntion between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit- you seem to have the assumption that I dont know about the seperation of persons and their collective oneness of nature as YAHWEH. I repeat I am in total agreement with the Trinitarian position and stand with you not against you on this issue. TY

[epic103]

@42cody1

LOL!!!

Jesus is not the GOD of Abraham!!!

The GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the GOD of our forefathers has glorified His servant - Jesus! Acts.3:13

The GOD of Jesus is the GOD of Abraham!

The teachings come from the GOD of Abraham!

Who do you think Jesus was praying to and Worshiping, the GOD of Abraham!

Jesus ends any controversy in John.17:3, he said eternal life is to know You(GOD), the only true GOD, and Jesus Christ, the One You sent!

Jesus was sent by the TRUE GOD!

[chris62008]

@epic103

Let me end this here. Revelation 1:8 (JESUS SPEAKING) "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." This is JESUS speaking here! Are you calling him a liar?

[epic103]

@chris62008

No, i calling your interpretation false!

You have to look at Rev.1:8, in light of what is said in Rev.1:1 and Rev.1:6

GOD gave the revelation to Jesus to pass down! Rev.1:1

We are to Worship and serve his GOD and Father! Rev.1:6

Plus, Jesus ends any controversy in John.20:17, tell my brothers that i ascend to my Father and to your Father, and to my GOD and to your GOD!

Jesus said, the ONLY TRUE GOD sent him! John.17:3

Connect the dots!!!

[chris62008]

@epic103

We are not to only worship The Father. Which is why in John 17:5 Jesus says" And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." They share glory, and have done so for eternity. Which is why you see Jesus say in Revelation 1:8, 1:17, and 22:13 say that he is the "Alpha and Omega; the beginning and end" Same titles his Father uses. Showing Jesus' equalness with his Father.

[chris62008]

@epic103

Not only that but let's not forget Jesus calls himself "Almighty" in Revelation 1:8. He uses titles of his Father (just like he did during his ministry) to show his equalness. We are to worship God. And that means all 3 members of the triune Godhead. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[chris62008]

@epic103

and if you don't think Jesus is worthy of being worshiped you better read a little more. Revelation 4 10-11 "the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: “ You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.”

This verse is speaking of Jesus. You can verify that with Collisians 1:16.

[epic103]

@chris62008

LOL!!! You twist the same Scriptures that every trinitarian twists!

1st. Who is the GOD of Jesus?

2nd. Who did Jesus say was the only true GOD?

3rd. Show me the origin of the TEACHING of the trinity? In other words, where is the EXPLICIT teaching found?

4th. Show me from the Gospels, from Jesus' own teachings where he says that he is equal with GOD, or part of a trinity?

5th. There is a difference between LORD(GOD), and Lord Jesus!

Jesus has a GOD!

[chris62008]

@epic103

I already told you. John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Here Jesus uses a title that The Father uses. That would be blasphemy if Jesus is not at least equal to The Father. Are you saying you believe Jesus is guilty of blasphemy?

[chris62008]

@epic103

The origin of the triune Godhead comes from The Bible. It is what the Bible teaches. Only somebody who denies truth denies the words of the Bible. Let me say this. John 1:1. Jesus is God. Get over it. You must not truly love Jesus if you want to strip him of his deity. It makes me angry sometimes.

[epic103]

@chris62008

You still haven't explained where the TEACHING of the trinity is found in Scripture!

Show me where the actual TEACHING is found?

I'm talking about, show where Abraham, Moses, King David, Solomon, the prophets etc.. taught that Yahweh(GOD) is 3 persons?

John.1:1 is not TEACHING the trinity!

We can't conclude GOD Almighty is a trinity(3 persons) unless the EXPLICIT doctrine is taught! And the fact of the matter is, none of GOD's people knew anything about GOD being 3.

[chris62008]

@epic103

Yahweh is not 3 persons. Yahweh is one person. He is God The Father.

Jesus Christ is The Son. He is a totally seperate person from his Father, and he is also God according to John 1:1, Revelation 1:8 etc. And The Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the triune Godhead and also God (Acts 5:3-4). All 3 persons are seperate (like me and you are seperate) but all have deity. And together, these 3 persons make up God. This is what the Bible teaches.

[chris62008]

@epic103

John 1:1 is clearly saying Jesus is God. Do you not believe the Bible or something? Or are you one of those uneducated fellows who change John 1:1 to strip the Lord Jesus of his deity?

[epic103]

@chris62008

LOL!!!

I just don't believe your interpretation of the Bible!

Also, if the TEACHING of the trinity is found ALL OVER the Bible why can't you come up with the EXPLICIT TEACHING???

Show me where Adam, Abraham, Moses, King David, Solomon etc... TAUGHT that GOD is a trinity?

Plus Mr. educated man, there is a difference between a TEACHING and a verse of Scripture! A verse of Scripture isn't a TEACHING!

Do you know what a teaching is???

[chris62008]

@epic103

Interpret this. The Father is God (Exodus 6:3), The Son is God (John 1:1, John 1:28), The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). This is THE BIBLE! Don't argue with me, ARGUE WITH THE BIBLE! The Bible calls all 3 God (and thats with a capitol G!). Are you saying the Bible is wrong?

[epic103]

@chris62008

The Bible isn't wrong, I'm saying your interpretation is wrong!!!

You are still in Bible kindergarten!

And how does the Holy Spirit being GOD mean that the Holy Spirit is a separate person? And how can the Holy Spirit be a literal person, if GOD sends out the Holy Spirit?

GOD anointed Jesus with Holy Spirit and power! Acts.10:38

*Jesus was anointed with power and a person?*

That doesn't make sense!

They were all filled with the Holy Spirit! Acts.2:4

*Filled with a person?*

[chris62008]

@epic103

I'm not interpreting anything! What are you talking about. The Bible calls Jesus God! And you say Jesus is not God? Who is right? You or The Bible? You need to re evaluate yourself. I'll go with the Bible.

[chris62008]

@epic103

Yes. Acts 10:38. Thanks for bringing that up. God sent The Holy Spirit to Jesus when? At the Baptism!!! Luke 3:22 "and the Holy Spirit descended on him IN BODILY FORM like a dove." Yes. The Holy Spirit is a distinct and seperate person from The Father and The Son.

[epic103]

@chris62008

So, in closing, the Holy Spirit comes from GOD! The Holy Spirit is the way in which GOD Almighty gets things done, by means of His Spirit! So, the Holy Spirit is GOD in that sense, but it's not a separate being from GOD!

In other words, gifts of GOD, gifts of the Holy Spirit, it's just an expression. The Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Truth!

The GOD and Father of Jesus, is the One that is true and the GOD of Abraham, He alone is the source of all TRUTH!

[chris62008]

@epic103

The teaching of the trinity is found ALL throughout scripture. You just don't know your Bible well enough that's all.

[chris62008]

@epic103

or Are you one of those uneducated people that change John 1:1 in order to strip the Lord Jesus of his deity? That wouldn't suprise me.

[42cody1]

@chris62008 Epics purpose you noticed is only to post the verses that show the Lord Jesus servitude and manhood but then ignore all the verses dealing with his deity. I am convinced that he is not capable of hearing, but the same happened in Jesus day. He hath blinded their eyes and hardened their heart lest they see and hear and be healed. John 12:40 Epic has built a theology around a few verses rather than consider the whole of scripture concerning the identity of Jesus.

[42cody1]

@epic103 Rev 1:1 still fits with the whole of scripture

Trinitarians have connected the dots, your view of Christ as

just a servant, man having a God whom he worshipped falls short when Christ is called the The First and the Last Rev 1:17 and when he receives worship himself John 20:28. Now since Christ isthe First and it being in possession of the article in the Greek shows that he is the eternal one, not 2nd to anyone. The entirety of scripture has2 be considered

[42cody1]

@epic103 You are ONLY considering half the equation on the identity of Jesus Epic, we know that Christ had a God, we know that Jesus said the True God was the Father, we know Jesus came as a servant. Thats only half of the equation, Trinitarians have considered the other equation as well. Jesus as the True God laid the foundation of the Earth and the Heavens are the work of his hands. Hebrews 1:10-12 whom the Father calls Lord in this passage. The Lord who did this is the TRUE God!!! =Jesus.

[42cody1]

@epic103 You discredit yourself with all the sarcasm, we dont use sarcasm 2 teach people we teach the truth in love and that sir you are not doing. You never deal with any questions posted but just keep rambling on if you really want to search and share lets work one scripture at a time and fully exhaust it logically in the light of Gods word. You never answered my previous question and why? John 8:58 why did they want to stone Jesus Before Abraham was I AM, I AM was used by The God of Moses ?

[epic103]

@42cody1

Not true! Jesus never called himself THE I AM!

He said, before Abraham, i am! (Not, I AM)

Jesus wasn't calling himself THE I AM, that's RIDICULOUS!

The sentence itself doesn't make sense!  Before Abraham, Yahweh?

That doesn't make sense!

Also, you keep rejecting the fact that Jesus told us who the ONLY TRUE GOD is, and that his GOD(Yahweh)! The GOD of Abraham is the GOD of Jesus!

Jesus ascends to his GOD! Jesus never taught trinity!

Case Closed!!!

[42cody1]

@epic103 Epic. Jesus in this passage contrasted his uncreated origin to the created origin of Abraham. In exodus 3:14 Yahweh used it to show his Nature as the eternal being, self existent being. Christ used it to contrast Abrahams created origin to his existence being continually in the past to present time-thus eternal. He didnt say is name was IAM, he showed as Yahweh did to moses that he was eternal. That is why they picked up stones to stone him its the only logical assumption -thus stoning

[42cody1]

@epic103 I obviously didnt clarify as good as I should trying to fit what I am sharing into so many words without running out of space. Jesus was not calling himself the IAM directly true but was answering the question of his identity by showing his Nature compared to that of Abraham. Hence when the point was made about his nature they then understood that he claimed something that Only Yahweh could have.So indirectly he made his point clear of his identity. So you are wrong about the passage.

[42cody1]

@epic103 John 17:3 it is showing the identity of the TRUE GOD. The passage is not denying at all that Jesus didnt believe himself to be the true God- he accepted true worship, plus the word Only would have to be placed to show that ONLY the Father is the True God thus a different Greek Construction of the sentence. Only would have to be placed differently in the sentence to have it say as you have said. You begun with a premesis that isnt supported by the whole of scripture.

[42cody1]

@epic103 John 17:3 You have begun with a premesis that isnt supported by the whole of scripture and scripture has to fit collectively like a complete puzzle that fits perfectly once you have all the pieces together. ppl of this view have begun with a premesis of a biased belief and are left with ? marks when the deity of Jesus is shown in scripture. A view in advance before studying Gods word cripples ones view, we must let scripture speak as a whole before making assumptions that are wrong

[42cody1]

Yes Jesus was sent by the True God I agree, Yes Jesus was praying to and worshipping the True God, Yes the God of Abraham is the God of Jesus yes you are correct.Trinitarians believe all these things. Why? because Jesus was also Man. Jesus was also the TRUE God because he shared glory with the Father before the world came into existence John 17:5 this was when he was not existing in a servants form. You cling to the verses that show his servants nature but exclude the verse that show his deity.

[epic103]

@42cody1

No, Jesus was given his deity from GOD ALMIGHTY!

GOD is not begotten or created, He always was! GOD has no beginning or end!

Also, according to Jesus, we to share in the same glory that GOD gave him! John.17:22-24

The bottom line is, there is only one true GOD of Heaven and Earth, and Jesus told us who that is, and that's his GOD, the GOD of Abraham!

GOD is made of 1 being(person), not 3! Never does GOD portray Himself as 3.

[42cody1]

@epic103 Jesus was deity from your admission? so you must believe we are to be deity also? honestly what is your official position? what faith do you stand with? or are you just on your own? begotten or created you say? I assume you see begotten as meaning created? I want clarification of your position and what ministry you afiliate with and if not affiliated with one then I would also want your educational level and what your degree or degrees of specialty are?

[42cody1]

@epic103 Epic what I would like at this time is for you now to slow down and answer specific text exhaustively and answer direct questions posted to you directly rather than jumping to new verses and avoiding specifics that were posted or asked to you directly. There has been things asked that you seem to either avoid or ignore. What I would like to see happen here is that we stick to specific passages without avoidance and work them exhaustively are you able to do this?

[42cody1]

@epic103 I am going to be off for a few days or so, because I have to make a living and I have to have study time for my college classes. I think when we take the time to slow down we can get to that bottom line. I as a Trinitarian have agreed that there is only One True God of Heaven and Earth, I have already said as Trinitrian that when Jesus spoke as a Man that he had a God. These are agreement issues that you keep running back to as though Trinitarians dont agree with when they infact do.

[42cody1]

@epic103 John 17:3 JESUS is not saying that he is not the true God, He is also not saying the the Father exclusively is the true God. his placement of the word ONLY would have to be placed directly towards the Father to say as such and it would require a different construction in the Greek. The word ONLY is placed toward the True God not the Father as you would be arguing. ThE text itself doesnt agree with your position. Jesus points to the Father and the Father points to the Son as true God.

[epic103]

@42cody1

What are you talking about??? John.17:3 speaks for itself!

Jesus said, "YOU" the ONLY TRUE GOD!  The last time i checked, YOU means YOU! Jesus was clearly referring to his GOD and Father as the ONLY TRUE GOD! Jesus didn't say, US or WE, he said YOU!

Jesus was saying a prayer to the Father, so clearly the TRUE GOD is the Father!

Plus, this would be in harmony with other teachings of Jesus when he calls the Father, the LORD of Heaven & Earth!

Connect the dots!!!

[42cody1]

@epic103 Of course he said YOU the Father is the True God amen but so is the Son 1 John 5:20. Jesus is also . Jesus is the ONE Lord 1Corinth 8:6, but this doesnt exclude the Father does it? The True God said LET ALL ANGELS WORSHIP JESUS! Hebrews 1:6 The True God said Jesus laid the foundation of the Earth ad the Heavens were the work of his hands. Hebrews 1:10-12 why? Because Jesus was Equal to God John 5:18, receiveing Equal Worshipful Honor John 5:23 why?because the One Lord is the true God.

[42cody1]

@epic103 Lets do this lets spend time on John 17:3 in light of what you believe the text is saying - then lets see if your interpretation holds against the whole of scripture. but first clarify wha ministry you adhere to as a faith and if not any affiliation then I would expect you to tell what educational level you have obtained to. Then we will run through any and all verse that you want to do so, but exhaustively and patiently - pick a subject and stick to it- no tail chasing like a dog pls.

[7j7daniel]

In defense to the trinity and when the idea of it came about I just want to add that in the old testament you see God being the father being the sacrifice for Israel. Also in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the world was God and guess what. Then it became flesh and walked with us.

[shihtzufizzers]

@7j7daniel This doctrine was not fully established till the 4th century. the aposltes by not means ever taught this metality. 400 yrs later, could not be a true doctrine. look at the grammer of ancient greek. When examined it shows us that God = Jehovah and god= jesus. so many scriputures show us Jesus is Gods son. and even Jesus states this himself and not being equal. before coming to earth, while on earth, and after his resurrection back to heaven. I have more info if u are interested.

[42cody1]

@shihtzufizzers hello, noticed your posts and yes Jesus did say the Father was greater than he, but he also said that God was his Father and thats why the pharisees wanted to kill him because it made him Equal with God. That is to claim for oneself the authority, nature and rank that belongs to God. Joseph Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon pg 307 for John 5:18.

[epic103]

@42cody1

Authority comes from the Father! The authority Jesus has was given to him by his GOD! The Father is the source!

Remember, Jesus said that GOD is OUR Father!

Jesus said, the Father is the only true GOD, and the LORD of Heaven and Earth!

[42cody1]

@epic103 Epic this has all been explained to you and logically so, I dont like repeating myself and what others have told you over and over again. When did Jesus make that comment in heaven or in earth? He as a man on Earth said all those things true. God is the source. God is Father, God is Son John 1:1, 8:58, 20:28, Titus 2:13, Romans 9:5, Acts 20:28, Rev 1:17, John 5:18-23, John 10:6,30 and the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3-4. God the source is Triune and True.

[epic103]

@42cody1

Sorry, but you're misapplying those Scriptures! None of those passages proves the trinity!

LOL!!! Son of GOD, and "GOD the SON" are not the same thing!

Nowhere is Jesus called GOD the Son!

Jesus made it clear who the ONLY TRUE GOD is, and that's his GOD and Father(Yahweh), the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that's who the ONLY TRUE GOD is, not a trinity!

The teachings are from GOD, not from Jesus! John.7:16

There is only 1 GOD and Father of all, who is above all!

[chris62008]

@epic10

Somebody needs to read their Bible more John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Here Jesus is clearly stating that he is eternal and has existed forever. NOT ONLY THAT but Jesus is clearly making himself equal to The Father by using the same name that The Father used to idenify himself to Moses with! I AM! This does not mean Jesus IS The Father. It means that Jesus is EQUAL to The Father. Whatever The Father is, Jesus is! Because they are equal

[epic103]

@chris62008

Jesus never said he is the I AM, that's ridiculous!

Jesus never made himself equal to the Father!

Jesus said, the Father is greater than ALL!

Jesus said, the Father is greater than i am!

Jesus has a GOD!!!

Connect the dots!!!

[chris62008]

@epic103

which is why you see in Revelation 1:8 Jesus again using titles of his Father. Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty". This is JESUS speaking here. Using his Fathers' titles to show his oneness and equalness to his Father. He reaffirms his eternal nature in Revelation 1:17 and 22:13. And don't forget Revelation 1:8! Make no doubt about it, Jesus. Is. God. He is the 2nd member of the blessed trinity!!!

[42cody1]

@epic103 Epic I would never deny that the Father is the true God I am just saying what is true about God is also true about the Son. God the Son actually would be a better definition and more accurate definition to explain the term son of God to be truthful, so the term is not the bible but the concept trully is. Your version of the term son of God implies that he was created and that view doesnt hold to scripture at all. The Son is uncreated as well so son of God implies deity=God the SON.

[42cody1]

@epic103 We dont base our belief on the Trinity on one or a few verses but on the whole biblical cannon and then see how the verses fit collectively together in harmony. I notice rather than LOL, at eachother it would be a kind Godly gester between us if we could treat one another with respect and dignity as we look thru God's wonderful word in the Love of Christ-which isnt shown by LOL at one another. We are to show our fruits of Love rather than ungodly sarcasm. So can we pls be kind 2 eother?

[42cody1]

@epic103 The God of Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob was called the I AM. eXODUS 3:14, Which means That God was th self existent one hence eternal in his own right and Nature, Now Jesus claimed the same term for himself before Abraham was I AM. Then they picked up stones to stone him??? hmmm why did they do that? So what is true of the only true God is also true of Jesus. Can you see this as logical? If not explain why and such from the context of John 8. Will you do that 4 me epic?

[42cody1]

@epic103 ok lets take some of the so called misapplied scriptures let you expound on the meaning. John 1:1. So what do you believe it is saying? I wonder if you will go the Jehovah witness route with this one.

[AKhomiakov]

Sean, I haven't seen the remaining videos yet, but I hope you explain the link between Isaiah 45:22-23 and Philippians 2: 9-11. Allowing Jesus to be merely a "representation" of God doesn't cut it here, in my view.

[42cody1]

@AKhomiakov you are correct it doesnt, Christ claimed for himself the title : the First and the Last Rev 1:17 and its in possession of the Article meaning ''The First" showing identity as THE ETERNAL ONE. Joseph Thayer Greek English Lexicon pg 554. When Christ claimed to be the good Shepard in John 10, he did so knowing that Yahweh was Shepard Psalms 23- Christ said I have other sheep that are not of this fold them I must also bring 4 there to be One fold and One Shepard. So Jesus is Yahweh.

[chris62008]

@42cody1

Common misconception. Jesus IS NOT Yahweh. Jesus is The Son, the 2nd member of the blessed trinity! Yahweh is The Father. He is a totally seperate person from The Son. He is the 1st member of the Trinity. And The Holy Spirit is the 3rd member of the Trinity. These 3 persons, together (in unity) make up the ONE true God. CONTINUTED....

[42cody1]

@chris62008 Chris I really am in total agreement with you on this- I assure you.

[chris62008]

@42cody1

All are their own seperate person and all are equal. All were involved in creation (Father and Son Proverbs 30:4, Holy Spirit Genesis 1:2) and all have existed together for eternity. (Father and Son John 17:5, Holy Spirit Hebrews 9:14). 3 seperate persons, ONE God. This is what the Bible teaches.

[42cody1]

@chris62008 Amen Chris this is exactly what thebible teaches, your are correct young man.