I think if a Calvinist were on the Titanic when it hit the iceburg, he (or she), would probably have gone downstairs and made a graphic schematic of the damage done to the boat, and zealously tried to inform all of the other passengers, who were by this time well aware that the ship was going down, and were busy preparing the life boats for launch. To use another metaphor, a Calvinist tends to study the race instead of run it. (1 Cor. 9:24)
@andrewdreiling11 wrong, any Calvinist that were on Titanic fought to save their own lives just like everyone else, now if you could go back in time then and witness this, you can say "hey what are you worried about? going to see Jesus soon yahoo right? then the Calvinist would of run you over to get into the life boat haha
@RomainesIX A Question Calvinist can't clearly directly answer, children that are beaten, some raped and even murdered, God preordained this before their birth is what a true Predestined Elected Calvinist believes, but will not admit it. examples are JonBenét Ramsey, Dennis Rader and John Wayne Gacy, Jr. who molested and killed 33 teenage boys. New Testament, thus sins are not passed down through parents to children, what possible answer is valid from a Calvinist? Post some scriptures please
@Erap1muzik A Question Calvinist can't clearly directly answer, children that are beaten, some raped and even murdered, God preordained this before their birth is what a true Predestined Elected Calvinist believes, but will not admit it. examples are JonBenét Ramsey, Dennis Rader and John Wayne Gacy, Jr. who molested and killed 33 teenage boys. Since we live in the New Testament now, thus sins are no
That's sad that he uses scriptures known to contain the doctrine of ransom which is in opposition to the doctrine of redemption. It was a doctrine developed by Irenaeus to combat Ptolemy.
Predestination just meant that he knew man would fall into sin and he prepared his son before this happen, thus he predestined Christ to save us. I think this guy just misses basic concepts.
Loaded nonsense statements, "God is the author of sin if you believe in predestination"...just like Irenaeus claimed that if you believed in a demiurge separate from the creator then you were permiscuous and ate babies right?
"It is in fact..probably"? This guys language is so shakey...kinda like his falsified background in Islam. He looks like a fucking peanut head. Calvinism is a big issue in the church? Really? According to who?
The Arminians and Calvinist have beautiful theologies: A-God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian);B-God is Sovereign,therefore he will accomplish all that he desires(Calvinist).Since God desires the salvation of everyone and he has the power to accomplish this desire dosen't it seem logical that he will accomplish this desire(the salvation of everyone)? Isn't the combination of A and B Biblical Universalism? Because both believe in eternal hell they must reject each others theology.
@Erap1muzik Calvinism falsely teaches Election is Grace. The correct Biblical definition of Grace is, “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT be saved.” Election is of paramount importance to a Calvinist, where repentance and Calvary are secondary, since Calvinists believe their election is what saved them. John Calvin never saw himself as a hell bound godless lost sinner without any hope in the world. Jesus saves, not election!
@WCOFTheology I must have misunderstood every Calvinist who ever preached about foreordination to salvation, prior to believing in Christ, including John Calvin, being the only way salvation is made possible. If you believe you were elected to salvation, then you believe Election is Grace. Calvinists teach that Grace, which is the gift of God in Eph. 2:8 is Election. Calvin believed his Election and baptism as an infant completed his salvation. Where is Christ in that Reformed Theology equation?
@WCOFTheology If you believe in the precepts of Calvinism then you believe that prayer can never change anything, if what you pray for and ask God for today has not been predestined from eternity past. You are therefore not at this moment in time at the mercy of a caring loving God, whose watchful eye is on the sparrow, but you are at the mercy of all predestined events that can never be changed, not even by God Himself. People who really think about Calvinism reject it as being defect ridden.
@Erap1muzik Reformed Theology doesn’t do justice to God’s love, goodness, and mercy for all lost sinners. “God commands all men everywhere to repent” and He sets before all men both life and death and He instructs us to “choose life”. He is a brilliant minded, loving, generous, kind and wonderful God who wants everyone to reject Satan and choose Christ, after the Holy Spirit draws them to Himself by the hearing of the Word alone. Faith comes by the hearing of the Gospel, and not by election!
@Erap1muzik Hebrews 4:12, “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
God deals with men as He continuously examines the thoughts and intentions of their hearts. Do Calvinists actually believe God predestines every thought and intention of every heart and then judges the very thoughts and intentions He predestined?
@Erap1muzik God does not and will not control anyone’s heart or mind for any reason. In the case of Paul on the road to Damascus, God physically blinded Paul with His light, which at first got his attention, and God then reasoned with him, and Paul changed his own mind. God brought the event that caused Paul to change Paul. That’s how God works in the hearts of men. The Bible says God knows the end from the beginning. It does not say that He forces the end from the beginning.
@Erap1muzik God will cause a man's heart to change and become hardened by bringing events into his life that will force him to make choices. God being omniscient knows what a man's choices will be and then God can use the man's wrong decisions for His glory. That is exactly how God, in the case of Pharaoh, showed Israel His might. And in the case of Jonah, God caused the events that forced Jonah to change his mind and make the right decision to go to Nineveh as he was first told to do.
@Erap1muzik Calvinism is a scam! It's all just based on wordplay. For instance, 2 Pet 3:9 “God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”. Calvinists say, “Peter was writing to the Church and not those God chose for hell”. Well God had that verse published in the New Testament for all men to read, so anyone who reads those words can personally apply it to mean God wants them to repent and be saved. As in, “God commands all men everywhere to repent” Acts 17:30.
@Erap1muzik A Question Calvinist can't clearly directly answer, children that are beaten, some raped and even murdered, God preordained this before their birth is what a true Predestined Elected Calvinist believes, but will not admit it. examples are JonBenét Ramsey, Dennis Rader and John Wayne Gacy, Jr. who molested and killed 33 teenage boys. Since we live in the New Testament now, thus sins are no
@CBALLEN evil is manipulation, evil is abusing little kids evil is violence evil is creating people and making families love each other and then causing one of their own to die evil is slavery (remember that one in American history?) evil is where one man looks handsome and another ugly.....if you enjoy others thinking for you well then allow me to think for you i will set you free...all religion constricts the heart and oh evil is making man god...wake up and accept the world for what it is...
@CBALLEN Didn't Hitler believe he was doing right when he killed all those people? In Africa men rape little babies trying to get rid of AIDS,they believe they are doing a good thing.So how do you know what evil is unless there is a divine standard and if there is a divine standard then there has to be a divine Law giver,right?
There is no god. All religion is bullshit. There is too much evil in the world and too many people are sick immoral and brutish. We are now living in a time in which Islam is blamed for everything. That’s what people who believe in religion do, if they are not fighting with each other then they’re ready to fight with other belief systems. Judaism, Christianity, Islam Buddhism Hinduism are all false and immoral. The masses are lead by the few. There is no such thing as liberty of any sort.
@CBALLEN That verse must be understood in context. Romans is Paul's tract to lead Jews to Christ. See Rom 2:17. It's Jewish focused, and Rom 9:1-3 specifically addresses Paul's love for...the Jew. Paul then uses examples that Jews can relate to, which are from their Jewish history. The Jews rejected the Gospel of grace in favor of the Law of works, and Paul concludes with the Jer 18:1-13 Potter hardening, which is temporary and partial. (Romans 11:25) C's are guilty of proof-texting, again.
@MrTruthSword Still makes no difference,God hardens who He will and has mercy on who He will,so salvation does not depend on the choice or will of man,it depends on God who shows mercy and He showed mercy before time began to the children of Promise,all men,Jews and Gentiles.Face it,the Bible can't be outwitted.God chose HIS OWN,HIS WAY,BEFORE TIME and left the goats to their own devices.
@MrTruthSword I do want you to know that I am not debating with you to gloat either,I too had to be shown,so I do respect you standing up for what you believe,but when God's word proves us wrong and shows us the truth,we as Christians should accept and love the truth,that's what it's all about.God Bless.
@CBAllen Although God knows a person's ultimate destination of either Heaven or Hell, if a person ended up in Hell, but didn't have to be, and in fact, has absolutely no excuse whatsoever, because they rejected God's very real and sincere, bona fide, free offer and gift of salvation, having died on the cross for their sins, then you could logically say (and without senility) that God was patient and longsuffering towards them, not wishing at all for them to perish, but to come to repentance.
@MrTruthSword The thing is Jesus didn't die for those who go to Hell.God poured all the wrath on Jesus for the sins of His elect only and we know that God has plenty of wrath left to pour out on the wicked.So again,no,God is not patiently waiting on all men to come to Christ,that is ridiculous to even believe that.
@MrTruthSword If your dog died and you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was dead,would you continue to buy him food,call him to come to you ,try to walk him ect.? It would be even sillier for God to wait on the goats to come to Jesus,and that's just the way Arminians believe.Of course God has made it clear in Eph 1 that He chose His own to save before time according to His good pleasure alone and not dependent on anything the person does.
@MrTruthSword Romans 16 16 says, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills(chooses) or the man who runs,(works) but on God who has mercy." What does not depend on the man who wills? The answer is, God’s mercy. God does not look at a person to see what or who he is and then decide to show mercy, love, or save that person based on what He sees in that person. To say so would be to say that we are somehow worthy of something before God on our own. This is unbiblical.
Rev. 13:8 & 17:8 tells us that those NOT written in the Lamb's B.O.L. before the foundation of the world R GUARANTEED to follow the beast. In Eph1 :4-11 Paul tells those believers that the reason why all believers believe in Christ is because God chose 4 them to believe before time began,so we know God is not ignorant of where any of His creation will end up .All men appointed to eternal life will believe ,those not appointed will never believe and He's not trying & failing 2 save them.
For God so loved the elect that He sent His only Son! C'mon, guys! God wishes that only the elect would come to salvation! God decides who goes to hell no matter how much they love God! God DELIGHTS in sin, he DID create it! ALL SOVEREIGN. WE ARE ALL PUPPETS! THIS IS THE MATRIX! --Calvinism is a joke, a mockery of God...
After hearing the Gospel preached, I came under the power of the Holy Spirit and acknowledged my sin and I repented. I then received the gift of faith to believe in Jesus Christ. Rom 10:17, “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word”. Meaning, God gives faith to believe in Christ to everyone who hears the Gospel preached. Rejecting the Holy Spirit after hearing the Gospel is what damns men’s souls. God never withholds the faith to believe after hearing the Gospel message of forgiveness.
@Aletheia828 It’s almost like Calvinists don’t really grasp the relationship between God the Father and Jesus the Son, and how the Father draws, and how the Son draws, and how the Father gives to the Son, and how the Son gives to the Father, and how they are both drawing and giving.
Jesus said, “If you have seen me you have seen the Father, I and the Father are one”. And “No one can come to the Father except through me.” And “if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me”
@MrTruthSword John 12 - "all" is referring to jews AND gentiles.John 10:16 "I have other sheep, too, in another fold. I must bring them also." Rev.5:9 "and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation." How many people is God drawing?
@Aletheia828 ALL men know about God and ALL are without excuse. Romans 1:21, “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them”, “Even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful”.
And since they knew God but chose (free will) not to be thankful to God, God did what? “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind”
@Aletheia828 God’s drawing of all men to Himself is to everyone by and through the power of the Gospel. Anyone who responds to His drawing is then saved and becomes a new creature in Christ. According to Calvinism the elect were always new creatures by way of predestination. Your salvation was what, just a formality that completed your election?
@MrTruthSword "God’s drawing of all men to Himself is to everyone by and through the power of the Gospel."
If God was drawing all individuals to Himself by and through the Gospel,as Arminians believe,instead of All Men simply meaning Gentiles, Jews,rich ,poor,ect as the Bible means it,then All men Universally would be saved,but as we see in John 6:44 all drawn to Christ by the Father ARE saved.So either the Bible"s wrong or you are cause people R in Hell and have been 4 A long time.
@CBALLEN ""God’s drawing of all men to Himself is to everyone by and through the power of the Gospel." Of course God draws by the gospel - proclaimed by written or spoken word - and draws no other way. I can't think of a single New Testament conversion in the ABSENCE of the word, written or spoken. So then faith comes by hearing .. hearing by the Word. It (faith) doesn't come any other way. God draws .. yes .. how? Mysteriously? Directly? A lil nudgie? Or by the gospel - the good news?
@lllannall The word DRAW means to overcome all resistance,such as drawing a bucket of water from a well breaks gravity or drawing a bow string back.So when God draws one to Christ,such as in John 6:44,it shows us that God is successful in justifying and causing them to come to His Son who has a 100% success rate in saving them.God changes the hearts of the natural man through His gospel,some immediately and some over a period of time,as in, some plant and some water,but God gives the increase.
@CBALLEN 'The word DRAW means to overcome all resistance" No, it doesn't. Where'd you get that from. The word translated "draw" typically has the metaphorical meaning "to lead, to coax, to heavily influence, to impel." So when God "draws" you, He, of course, is leading you - how? through the written or spoken word and never otherwise. "God changes the hearts of the natural man through His gospel." <-- absolutely. The inward change is wrought thru the medium of the written/spoken word.
@CBALLEN "it shows us that God is successful in justifying and causing them to come to His Son who has a 100% success rate" Apparently not, else there is no meaning at all to the parable of the Seed - the gospel of God's son - falling upon BAD SOIL and producing nothing. The gospel may be rejected.
@lllannallll Draw = helkuo. It is a strong word which means “to tug, draw, or compel,” and is found 6 times in the New Testament. In each usage, whatever was drawn came; there is never a suggestion or hint that whatever was drawn was not accomplished.
@CBALLEN "Draw = helkuo. It is a strong word which means “to tug, draw, or compel,” That's at least some better: Helkuo isn't particularly "strong", but it means "to lead, to coax, to draw, to impel, to compel" - but NEVER to force. Had you translated it, you would have said "irresistibly compel or force", I guess, because that's what you mean. That's not true. Through His word, God leads, draws, compels, coaxes, etc, but never quite FORCES.
@lllannallll helkuo actually means to drag,of course God never has to drag anyone against their will,He changes ones heart and in doing so changes their will.Here's the deal,not one person that Jesus died for will go to Hell and not anyone who ends up in Hell won't deserve it,right?
@CBALLEN "Here's the deal,not one person that Jesus died for will go to Hell and not anyone who ends up in Hell won't deserve it,right?" Of course that's wrong! Christ tasted death for all men. And do you not believe just about as I said an old negro would say, "When de callin come, you is hepless. If de callin don't come, you is hepless. You is hepless befo' de callin, durin de callin, after de callin. Jes' sit on de stump n wait on de callin." Is that not pretty accurate?
@CBALLEN "helkuo actually means to drag,of course God never has to drag anyone against their will,He changes ones heart" Yep, that's the literal meaning, and the metaphorical one, which is actually the more common, is "to lead, to coax, to draw, etc." I have YET to see "overcome all resistance" in a lexicon, but that's how you defined it. I asked for a lexical reference and such is lacking. And yes, God changes one's heart - how? through the written/spoken word and no other way.
@CBALLEN "'The word DRAW means to overcome all resistance" <-- I'd like a source for that - a GREEK LEXICAL source, because something can be coaxed, drawn, led, etc and STILL, after all that, such coaxing prove ineffectual - and the desired results falls flat.
@lllannallll The 3 soils are kinds of men,God is not trying to save ever person,"all men" in most contexts means,types of men,Jews and Gentiles,slave and free,rich and poor,black and white ect.John 6 :44 is proof positive that man has no free will in salvation,since NO ONE CAN COME or Believe in Jesus unless the Father first DRAWS them and once that has been done Jesus keeps and raises them to glorification on the last day.
@CBALLEN "John 6 :44 is proof positive that man has no free will in salvation,since NO ONE CAN COME or Believe in Jesus unless the Father first DRAWS" I have stated and agreed that God draws - only by means of the written or spoken word. You simply say, "God draws," and the suspicion is not lacking that you mean some mysterious, inexplicable manner - but you never quite say. John 6: 44 proves nothing for you: God draws through his word.
@lllannallll Only men who have been appointed by God before creation to eternal life,will ever believe.In.Eph. 1 :4 -12 ,Paul is explaining to the Ephesian believers why they believe,Paul tells them that God has chosen all believers before the foundation of the world and He chose them by the wise council of His Will alone and NOT on anything in the individuals.Why don't you listen to this video and check out what's being said with your Bible?
@CBALLEN 'Why don't you listen to this video and check out what's being said with your Bible?" I have and I did. It sounds like a bunch of mold and dust from Calvin's medieval castle. "Can't do a thing to be saved, can't do a thing to be lost." Or as the coloreds might say, "When de callin come, you is hepless. If de callin dont come, you is hepless. Either way, you is hepless." That's Calvinism, boiled down.
@lllannallll Jer.38:13 Then they drew(helkuo) Jeremiah up with ropes and lifted him out of the cistern. And Jeremiah remained in the court of the guard.You see,this kind of drawing overcomes all resistence,in this case gravity, it uses the same word in both places.When one draws water he never coaxes or pleads with the water to get in the bucket and pull itself up does it?God draws us in a way that always succeeds.
@CBALLEN 'Then they drew(helkuo) Jeremiah up with ropes and lifted him out of the cistern." That's LITERAL .. not metaphorical, and besides, you are taking a Hebrew phrase, translating it into Greek, then into English. I know what the literal meaning of the word is, but I never heard anyone, even a Calvinist, try to give a literal meaning of helkuo, as in drawing water, to helkuo as in drawing sinners. (Guess I have now).
@CBALLEN "God draws us in a way that always succeeds." Christ tasted death for all men? Well, He really didn't, did He, as per you? God commands all men to repent? Well, He really doesn't, does He? Drink ye all of it? No, drink a little of it. Having done all to stand, stand? Do a little, then stand. Go into all the world? No, go to a little of it. I wanna know precisely HOW you define "all", because you must have a dandy "take" on it.
@lllannallll Actually Christ tasted death for all races of men,but many out of those races of men,so Christ died for many..In the O.T. only Jews could be saved,even when the occasional Gentiles were saved they had to become Jews first,but when Jesus came,He saved the Gentiles as Gentiles.Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
@CBALLEN "In the O.T. only Jews could be saved,even when the occasional Gentiles were saved they had to become Jews first" Oh, good grief. Certainly the Gentiles could be saved, and without Judaism at that, worshiping under the old Patriarchal system. What makes you think that everyone was lost other than Jews?
@lllannallll I guess that you knew something that the believing Jews didn't huh? Acts 11:18 means nothing?"When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” This was a new work,God called the Gentiles who were not His children,His children at this time,CHILDREN OF PROMISE.
You really need to study before speaking on matters that you don't know about.
@CBALLEN "I guess that you knew something that the believing Jews didn't huh?" Possibly. Please note that you made no effort at all to disprove that the old Patriarchal system of Adam, Noah, Enoch, etc did not click right along, despite the fact that Abraham's seed was set apart as God's chosen people. Under which dispensation was old Melchesideck (sp) worshipping? What about Cornelius? His prayers served as a REMINDER, a MEMORIAL of "in they seed all nations shall be blessed."
@CBALLEN You actually think that, at some point - maybe with Moses - EVERY person either had to be a JEW or a proselyte to Judaism in order to be saved. From Moses on down (or whatever), all non-Jews and non-Jewish proselytes would be LOST? No provision for them at all? You'd need to prove that point, because I maintain that the Patriarchy continued right on to Cornelius for the Gentiles. The majority of the OT is silent concerning them for good reason.
@CBALLEN "“Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life." <-- something the Jews never had until the death of Christ, and the Gentiles never had until Cornelius. The Jews, God's chosen race, was granted "repentance unto life" FIRST. They erroneously thought that the Gentile - worse than a dog - was barred from such. That's why it took a number of miracles to convince them.
@lllannallll God partially hardened the Jews against Jesus so that the Gentile could be saved.Romans 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
@CBALLEN "God partially hardened the Jews" About like God hardened Pharoah's heart. God hardens hearts INDIRECTLY, through means, then the person hardens his OWN heart. So if you think the old Patriarchy was set aside - null and void - hundreds of years before Cornelius ... do tell: exactly when was it set aside? With Abraham? With Moses? Where?
@lllannallll Matthew 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
Doesn't look like Jesus is trying to save everyone if He doesn't give everyone the secret of eternal life,does it?
@CBALLEN Matt 13? You quit too soon. "Doesn't look like Jesus is trying to save everyone if He doesn't give everyone the secret of eternal life". Well, verse 15: "this people's heart is waxed gross (become hardened) ... their eyes (now watch) THEY have closed ...." Who hardened their hearts? dulled their hearing? closed their eyes? THE PEOPLE DID, that's who. They closed their own eyes - God didn't swoop down and close them.
@CBALLEN "God partially hardened the Jews against Jesus" I repeat, God supplied the CIRCUMSTANCES, the CLIMATE, but the Jews hardened their own hearts and, as a nation, bore and bear the consequences of such actions. Such is parallel with Pharaoh's condition. Yes, God hardened his heart, but how? Through means. Then Pharoah made his choice: Pharoah hardened his own heart, as did national Israel 1,500 years or so later.
@lllannallll Romans 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"This is all speaking of the Jews who God has partially hardened.
@CBALLEN Mark 4 is simply a parallel of Matt 13. I never denied that God hardened them. But how? Your position is that God somehow MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE for them to see and hear, when the Bible explicitly, not implicitly, states that the people willingly closed their own eyes and willingly covered their own ears. Are you beside yourself? What are you going to do when turned lose?
@lllannallll John 10:25-26 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
When Jesus calls to His Fathers unregenerated sheep,the Father regenerates them to new birth and they believe.These Pharisees did not belong to the Father,all Israel is not Israel,in fact,later Jesus tells them they will go to Hell.
@CBALLEN And you know that the hardening of Pharoah's heart is a fine example of the phrase "harden the heart". The trouble is: you also know that Pharoah hardened his own heart and willingly said "I will not" - the Bible says so plainly. So your reply to that, so far, has been three naughts, two ciphers, and a goose-egg.
@CBALLEN "John 10:25-26" I've never seen a sect of people so confused on sheep and goats. You actually think they were made sheep first IN ORDER THAT they could HEAR. But wait, why does eternal life come LAST? The sheep hear, follow (obey), THEN He gives them eternal life. I'll agree with that - but you won't. You think they are given eternal life FIRST and then are sheep, THEN they hear Him, THEN they follow him.
@lllannallll Here's the thing.The natural man loves sin,all he thinks is sinful,so God is holding men back from doing all they wish to do,if God didn't restrain us we could all turn out like Jeffry Dahlmer or worse! The way God hardens someone is by removing His restraint from them.Joseph was sold into slavery and went through a lot,some of his brothers wanted to kill him but God stopped that sin.When all was said & done his bros. feared him,but he told them cont. 1-a
@CBALLEN cont.1-a that he realized that what they meant for evil God meant for good to save many people alive.Now notice,he didn't say what you meant for evil God used for good.He realized that all that happened to Him was God's plan even though God used his brothers to carry it out.His bros. did exactly what they wanted 2 do,but at the same time,God decreed that it would happen.Even Jonah in his disobedience ended up on a ship that had sailors who God wanted to save.
@CBALLEN "I'll pray for wisdom for you.God Bless" Likewise. Because God knows: when you "get off" of TULIP, and try to start discussing the Patriarchal, Mosaic, and Christian dispensations, you NEED it. And, remember you said for me to "read about it before commenting." Sir, thou art the man. The Law of Moses was effectual until the CROSS, not until JOHN broke 400 years of silence.
@CBALLEN And try to tell me: (A) when the old Patriarchy began and ended and (B) when the Mosaic dispensation began and ended. And try to prove both. That's why I asked til you hit the bottle and began re-writing Calvin's Institutes.
@CBALLEN "if God didn't restrain us we could all turn out like Jeffry Dahlmer or worse!" <-- so the problem is that God didn't restrain Mr. Dahlmer, eh? That's a novel approach. All those people died, not because Mr. Dahlmer was a psychopathic killer - but because our heavenly Father simply refused to "restrain" him? You were doing better earlier this evening. Do you drink?
@lllannallll Look,God has a purpose for all evil,doesn't the Bible tell us that ALL THINGS work together for good for those who love God and are THE CALLED according to His purpose? Do you think that God could stop all evil if He wanted to?He's stopped men from sinning many times in scripture that we know of,and probably billions of times we don't know of.Or is everything out of control and God's just trying to maintain until the end because His experiment got out of hand?lol?
@CBALLEN "Do all men have faith to believe in Christ?" Have faith IN ORDER to BELIEVE? "Belief" IS "faith" - and "faith" is "belief". All men who are of age and mental competence have the ABILITY to believe in Christ, but some "close their eyes, shut up their ears, and decide not to believe".
@CBALLEN And I'll drop a question: who hardened Pharoah's heart, just out of curiosity? Did (a) God harden his heart, (b) Pharaoh harden his own heart, (c) Both, or (d) neither. There is no other possibility. I certainly believe the answer is "c", but I have no doubt at all that you'll have to say "a" - knowing the Bible says that pharoah hardened his own heart. You'd never admit that he had a choice in the matter.
@lllannallll Even Joshua said that the ancestors of the Hebrews worshiped false gods before the flood.God was the first one to harden Pharaoh's heart,but Pharaoh hardened his heart as well.The one thing missed is God caused the EGYPTIANS to treat the Hebrews evil to start the whole ball rolling.PS 105:25 He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.
@CBALLEN "God was the first one to harden Pharaoh's heart,but Pharaoh hardened his heart as well." Well, good: and God hardens the hearts of others the same way - thru means (not directly). Pharoah still had a CHOICE in the matter: he chose a lie over truth, war over peace, etc. and thus hardened his own heart.
@CBALLEN "Even Joshua said that the ancestors of the Hebrews worshiped false gods before the flood." Sure they did. Those evil men - even evil generations - "waxed worse and worse" before the flood, though if they were born totally depraved in the first place, I fail to see how they could have "waxed" much "worse."
@lllannallll Deut 32:8-9 When the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number in his heavenly court.For the people of Israel belong to the LORD; Jacob is his special possession.
King James Version (KJV) 6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
@CBALLEN And I repeat that your teaching is: (1) All men are born - not BECOME, but are BORN - depraved sinners, though for the life of you, you can't name what SIN they committed (2) God kinda picks and chooses "this un n that un" to regenerate - thus respecting one individual over another (3) the "elect" ones are forced to bow because they got the calling and (4) the non-elect ones are doomed now, doomed then, and doomed in the future because God didn't ALLOW them to be saved.
@lllannallll There was no death before Adam's sin,there was to be no death,however after Adam's sin death came to all men and reigned even before the law of Moses,this was the punishment for Adam's sin on all of Adam's posterity,that's why babies die,the punishment of death came to all people because of Adam.God killed babies in the flood,at Sodom and Gomorrah,remember 10 righteous could not be found,proving God doesn't look at babies as righteous.All must be born again.
@CBALLEN "proving God doesn't look at babies as righteous.All must be born again." So He looks upon all babies as totally depraved? Your contention is that all babies born, say, within the 5 years leading up to the flood were not only totally depraved, but every last one of them was non-elect? It seems to me that the death of babies during the flood does much more to prove that babies are SAFE - not saved. They were never LOST.
@CBALLEN "Maybe you can do better than your cohort on King Saul: God's dealings with him are pretty detailed. God's spirit came upon him, and God gave him a new heart. Was he elect ... saved? God's Spirit departed from him, he sinned horribly, he became an enemy of God, and killed himself. Was he elect with God's Spirit far from him? Was he non-elect to start with? Surely he wasn't saved, then later lost - so do tell. <-- Comment on that. In detail, please. Just curious.
@CBALLEN And why don't you tell us when the old patriarchy actually ended? I've asked that, but you simply list the usual cast of misapplied verses. Sir, you are the one who affirmed that none but Jews could be saved before the cross, and I asked, "Since when?" And no answer.
@lllanna It ended when Jesus came into the world to save HIS PEOPLE,The Mystery hidden in the O.T.was that God's elect(those chosen before time to believe) would be both Jew and Gentile and that these are the Children of Promise spoken of in Isaiah,they are a people from all races.This was a RADICAL IDEA to the Jews,almost too fantastic to believe! And then to be told that Salvation is purely through the gift of faith that God Himself must give was mind blowing and scoffed at by the Jews.Cont.
@CB Cont,The fact that God saves by Grace through faith was something the Jews could not accept,even today Christians misinterpret the Bible to include many works of men to achieve their salvation.Keeping sacraments, Sabbath Keeping,water Baptism,sinner's prayer,speaking in tongues,knocking on doors and keeping score,ect.All these have one common thread,Arminianism,the idea that MAN not God,is ultimately the Captain of His own ship.The mystery has been revealed to some,but not to others cont 2.
@CB Cont 2 Jesus came 2 save those who the Father has GIVEN HIM and He does this perfectly,so Jesus actually saves, He just doesn't make men savable if they decide themselves.Salvation is not by the will(choice) of man,it's not by the one who runs(works) but it is of God who shows mercy 2 whomever HE WILLS.GOD knew everyone by name before time,He knew HIS SHEEP and the goats too,He's not trying 2 save the goats either,why would He B,they're the 1s that He chose 2 leave in their sin. CONT 3
@CBALLEN Excuse me: I dont need the Calvinist ramblings. I asked WHEN the patriarchy ended. I asked WHEN the Jewish dispensation ended. So far, I haven't seen either one answered. The reason for asking is that you can't tell us UNDER WHAT SYSTEM or HOW Melchisidek was worshiping. And I say the system of Noah, of Adam, of Enoch, of Abraham, of Seth, of Abel PERSISTED all the way til Cornelius. Disprove it.
@CBALLEN You're other option is that, for 1,500 years, all of humanity was LOST - except a few Jews. No evidence to that effect, either - you just spurt it out. Cornelius wasn't a JEW ... he wasn't a PROSELYTE ... he was worshiping and praying just as Noah did, for instance. THAT is the point. And, I repeat, not one frazzling thing ENDED when, as you said, "Jesus came into the world." You can't prove that one, either.
@CBALLEN CONT 3 Open Theism has emerged as consistent Arminianism,they see the problem that Arminians don't see,they have 2 deny much of scripture 2 B consistent, they realize that if God truly knows all things then man has no autonomous free will.God says that He plans the future and calls it to be and it is,that ALL His plans are firm,that what He says He will do,He does Open th.claims,God is not all knowing,is not all powerful,and is NOT omnipresent,natural men can only choose a false god.
@CBALLEN And as far as the rhetorical ramblings, i'll simply repeat what the colored guy said, "When de callin come, you is hepless. If de callin dont come, you is hepless. Brotha, you is hepless." That sums it up: helpless on the front end, helpless in the middle, helpless at the end, and helpless in Hell because God never chose to help you. Made it the T in TULIP, but couldn't make it to the U.
@CBALLEN "It ended when Jesus came into the world to save HIS PEOPLE" Huh? I didn't ask when the Mosaic (Jewish) dispensation ended. Looks like that's what you tried to answer. I asked when the PATRIARCHY - that system of religion practiced by Adam, Noah, Enoch, Abraham, etc. The religion handed down by the fathers - the Patriarchal Dispensation. When did it end? And prove it.
@CBALLEN "It ended when Jesus came into the world to save HIS PEOPLE" And whatever you're trying to make reference to ... NOTHING ended "when Jesus came into the world." Where'd you get that idea? I asked (politely) for some kind of proof. You were the one that said I needed to "read". Well, I'm saying YOU do. When did the Patriarchy END? When the Mosiac (Jewish) dispensation END? That's what I asked.
@lllannallll "And why don't you tell us when the old patriarchy actually ended? I've asked that, but you simply list the usual cast of misapplied verses. Sir, you are the one who affirmed that none but Jews could be saved before the cross, and I asked, "Since when?" And no answer."
No one is saved before God regenerates them,all are under God's wrath until HE CONVERTS THEM.
@CBALLEN 29 For those whom He foreknew(uniquely fore loved), He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined(marked out), He also called(through the gospel); and these whom He called, He also justified(counted righteous); and these whom He justified, He also glorified.(raised in spiritual bodies)
@lllannallll Arminians claim that we are saved by faith through Grace,instead of by Grace through faith. Arminians believe that God has given all men the same amount of grace and then the difference lies with each man,to prove either they are smarter,more spiritual,better looking ect.that MAN improves on the grace God gives them,that's why one chooses & another doesn't Arminianism teaches men muster up a manmade faith and then trade it to God for salvation.
@lllannallll "And why don't you tell us when the old patriarchy actually ended? I've asked that, but you simply list the usual cast of misapplied verses. Sir, you are the one who affirmed that none but Jews could be saved before the cross, and I asked, "Since when?" And no answer."
Since God chose the Hebrews through Issac,God chose them not because they were the largest people,but because they were the smallest. probably 99% of O.T. Gentiles are in Hell now,God had no Gentile prophets.
@CBALLEN "And why don't you tell us when the old patriarchy actually ended?"
I believe John the Baptist was when the new work began."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached; and every man presseth into it" (Luke 16:16).
@CBALLEN Well, Adam, Abraham, Enoch, Noah, etc were not JEWS - they were the patriarchs and acceptably worshiped God for about 2500 years until the Law of Moses was given at Sinai. This was the ONLY system of worship for these 2500 years, inaugurated by God and consisting, as far as I know, only of animal sacrifices. Then, upon the giving of the Law to the children of Israel, they became a separate group of worshipers.
@lllannallll You're right,I guess it did start with Adam ,but there probably weren't too many who ended up in Heaven on the other side of the flood .I believe it was in the time of Enos when men began to blaspheme the name of God where it's mistranslated"called upon",and then at the tower of Babble God divided the nation according to the number of the" sons of God",but He kept a portion for Himself.This does not change the fact that probably 99% of all Gentiles went to Hell
@CBALLEN "but there probably weren't too many who ended up in Heaven on the other side of the flood ... This does not change the fact that probably 99% of all Gentiles went to Hell." Sir, at the TIME of which you are speaking, there was NO SUCH THING as a Jew or Gentile. There were no "children of Abraham" nor "children of Israel" because Abraham and "Israel" hadn't been born yet.
@lllannallll At the tower of babble God kept a portion for Himself,He always has a remnant,these would become His people,the children of promise.Will you now answer these questions please? Can the natural man obey God and come to Christ?
Can a natural man understand or know about spiritual things,such as salvation?
Do all men have faith to believe in Christ?
All men in most cases means all types,Gentiles and Jews,it very seldom means ALL men head for head without exception.
@CBALLEN "Can a natural man understand or know about spiritual things,such as salvation?" Can an unsaved man know what salvation is? Can he know what being lost IS? Of course. What kind of question is that?
@CBALLEN "Do all men have faith to believe in Christ?" <--- that question is an absurdity. Faith IS belief! It's like asking, "do all men have belief to believe" or "do all people confess Christ to confess Christ." I don't know what you mean, but surely you can come up with a better one.
@lllannallll 1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Romans 8:7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Do you have any idea what these 2 verses tell us about the natural man?
Jesus tells us that man must be born of water,of flesh,natural birth- and born of the spirit, of God Born Again,to see Heaven.We also see that the Holy Spirit that makes one BORN AGAIN is like the wind ,it comes and goes when it will and no one knows where.Salvation is not of him who wills (chooses) nor of him who runs(works),we also know man is unable to believe in Jesus unless God makes him able through the Holy Spirit.This is why man cannot make himself born again.
@CBALLEN "Jesus tells us that man must be born of water" No, He didn't. "and born of the spirit, of God Born Again" No, He didn't. He didn't say either one, did He?
@CBALLEN "Maybe you can do better than your cohort on King Saul: God's dealings with him are pretty detailed. God's spirit came upon him, and God gave him a new heart. Was he elect ... saved? God's Spirit departed from him, he sinned horribly, he became an enemy of God, and killed himself. Was he elect with God's Spirit far from him? Was he non-elect to start with? Surely he wasn't saved, then later lost - so do tell. <-- Comment on that. 3rd time I've asked for some kinda explanation.
@lllannallll Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3:1-7).
@CBALLEN John 3: 3-5 mentions not ONE thing about being "born of water" THEN being "born of the Spirit." That's two births. John 3: 3-5 speaks of ONE birth .... two elements ... "born" .... of what? ... "of water and of the Spirit." THAT is the new birth ... being "born again". One birth, two elements, one new birth. You're trying to have two births in there, somehow, and call one of them "born of water" then have yet another one called "born of the Spirit." You know that stunt won't work.
@lllannallll Born of water means born naturally,of flesh,then of spirit,of God,these are called parallels where the same thing is said in two different ways.Don't tell me you thought that born of water meant water Baptism?
@CBALLEN "Born of water means born naturally" The phrase is "born of water and of the Spirit". One "born" - two "elements". I've told you that, but you ignore it.
@CBALLEN "Don't tell me you thought that born of water meant water Baptism?" "Born of water and the Spirit" has reference to water baptism, among possibly other things. You know what proof you have of your "commentary"? Not a bit. Nothing. You just assert it. So I'll issue a few challenges. I know, of course, that you won't take them up - you can't. But I'll do if for good measure.
@CBALLEN #1. Fine one ... not five or ten ... but ONE ... reference in profane Greek writings in which the phrase "born of water" was EVER used to mean "childbirth". Of course, there IS NOT reference. So, anyway, do you have just one such reference?
@CBALLEN Well, here's #2 .... out of 20 or 25 so-called church fathers who commented on the verse, name ONE .... not five .. .but ONE who said "born of water and of the Spirit" refers to ANYTHING OTHER THAN water baptism. Can you do that? Floor's open. Is there ONE? From Iranaeus to Polycarp to Cyril to Justin Martyr and all in between, find ONE.
@CBALLEN And #3 .. Find more than one birth - one BORN - of ANY KIND in John 3: 3-5. Sir, there's only ONE: "born ... of what ... water and the Spirit." You are twisting it to try to force "born of water" to be ONE THING, then "born of Spirit" to be another. That's not gonna fly. Few, if any, reputable commentators would take such a position. So anyway, there's #3 for ya.
@CBALLEN And by the way, I see NO post from you that even MENTIONS King Saul, so as far as I'm concerned you never answered it. I asked specific questions with reference to him, and a fairly thorough search reveals no attempt at a reply from you. Wanna try again?
@CBALLEN "these are called parallels where the same thing is said in two different ways." Here's your parallel: Ye must be "born again". What does "born again" mean? Unless a man is "born of water and of the Spirit." That's the parallel. What you propose is a perversion, and here it is: "Unless a man is "born of water" ( the you force that to mean childbirth for no reason), then years later "born of the Spirit" (you'll have to ADD the word "born" there) .... there's the distinction.
@CBALLEN 2 Timothy 2:20. “Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified . . .”. How according to Calvinism, can a man who is fitted for destruction, CLEANSE HIMSELF of dishonor, to become a vessel of honor, when Calvinism denies that man can even have a free will to desire to cleanse himself?
@CBALLEN "I've already answered about Saul,you'll have to find it." I find no post in which you even mention King Saul. It might be there - but I do not see it, and I looked back 4 pages. If it's there, point it out.
@CBALLEN "Can the natural man obey God and come to Christ?" Absolutely. In so doing, he is changed, but certainly all men begin as "natural men." I don't know what you hope to gain by that.
@lllannallll . Duet 7:7-9 but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:JN.4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
@CBALLEN Maybe you can do better than your cohort on King Saul: God's dealings with him are pretty detailed. God's spirit came upon him, and God gave him a new heart. Was he elect ... saved? God's Spirit departed from him, he sinned horribly, he became an enemy of God, and killed himself. Was he elect with God's Spirit far from him? Was he non-elect to start with? Surely he wasn't saved, then later lost - so do tell.
@CBALLEN So, beginning about 1496 BC, we have two groups: (1) the ones worshiping according to the Patriarchs, which system was available to the majority of mankind and (2) the ones worshiping by a separate law, inaugurated by Moses upon Sinai. Hence, the two programs in effect at once for 1,500 more years. Cornelius was of the former group.
@CBALLEN "I believe John the Baptist was when the new work began."The law and the prophets were until John." Well, that's a peculiar position, since the Son of God kept the law. Why? It was STILL in effect. The Mosaic law was taken away, nailed to the cross by Jesus Christ when He DIED. The NEW will - the NEW testament - could not have become effectual until the testator died.
@CBALLEN ""The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached" It was "preached" as coming, as "at hand", as "nigh unto you", etc. but not as PRESENT. And Cornelius was STILL worshiping according the terms of the old Patriarchy. Gentiles had not been incorporated into the kingdom at all. Hence, his prayers went up as a "remembrance". "In they seed, ALL nations shall be blessed."
@CBALLEN By the way, since I mentioned the promise "In thy seed, ALL nations shall be blessed" and since (1) I presume we both believe ALL nations simply refers to the JEW and the GENTILE, and (2) since you believe "ALL" to not be everyone, pray tell, who is not included in that?
@CBALLEN "Actually Christ tasted death for all races of men,but many out of those races of men,so Christ died for many" I wasn't aware that "races" is either actually in or implied in the verse: could you give the Greek word from which it is translated?
@CBALLEN "they had to become Jews first,but when Jesus came,He saved the Gentiles as Gentiles." Name one. Seems to me that Jesus personally pronounced "salvation" on none but Jews.
@lllannallll Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Even out of the Gentiles,only those appointed by God before time to eternal life believed.
@MrTruthSword So God is drawing everyone you say? If that were the case, everyone will be saved in the last day. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." Are these two different 'Hims'?
@CBALLEN God did not make man for the purpose of sending man to hell so that He would receive glory in doing so. He made man knowing that there would be millions who would love Him and many more who would not. God, being the most righteous of all judges is in no way diminished by guilty sinners not accepting His free offer of pardon, any more than an earthly judge being rejected after making the same offer. “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” Rom 10:13
Moreover, regarding Acts 13:48, if C's took it to mean that all of the Calvinistically elect believed, then that would suppose that they author knew who the Calvinistically elect were (which C's admit that they don't know), and that these all *simultaneously* believed, and not at some point later in life, and that if all of the Calvinistically elect believed, no one who left that day had a second chance. This would be unlike any time in history. Solution: C is wrong as usual.
I think if a Calvinist were on the Titanic when it hit the iceburg, he (or she), would probably have gone downstairs and made a graphic schematic of the damage done to the boat, and zealously tried to inform all of the other passengers, who were by this time well aware that the ship was going down, and were busy preparing the life boats for launch. To use another metaphor, a Calvinist tends to study the race instead of run it. (1 Cor. 9:24)
andrewdreiling11 1 week ago
@andrewdreiling11 wrong, any Calvinist that were on Titanic fought to save their own lives just like everyone else, now if you could go back in time then and witness this, you can say "hey what are you worried about? going to see Jesus soon yahoo right? then the Calvinist would of run you over to get into the life boat haha
hemet92544 4 days ago
Loved this.....thank you! ^_^
RomainesIX 1 week ago
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@RomainesIX A Question Calvinist can't clearly directly answer, children that are beaten, some raped and even murdered, God preordained this before their birth is what a true Predestined Elected Calvinist believes, but will not admit it. examples are JonBenét Ramsey, Dennis Rader and John Wayne Gacy, Jr. who molested and killed 33 teenage boys. New Testament, thus sins are not passed down through parents to children, what possible answer is valid from a Calvinist? Post some scriptures please
hemet92544 4 days ago
Thank you for this :)
15Geneva60 1 week ago
dr.james white would had destroyed caner if this debate would had taken place.
Erap1muzik 2 weeks ago
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@Erap1muzik A Question Calvinist can't clearly directly answer, children that are beaten, some raped and even murdered, God preordained this before their birth is what a true Predestined Elected Calvinist believes, but will not admit it. examples are JonBenét Ramsey, Dennis Rader and John Wayne Gacy, Jr. who molested and killed 33 teenage boys. Since we live in the New Testament now, thus sins are no
hemet92544 4 days ago
That's sad that he uses scriptures known to contain the doctrine of ransom which is in opposition to the doctrine of redemption. It was a doctrine developed by Irenaeus to combat Ptolemy.
pandirasbox 2 weeks ago
"Evangelization" with false witness is not only an insult but a disgusting afront to God.
pandirasbox 2 weeks ago
The problem here is that you guys all believe in Hell, don't understand apokatastasis...or the purifying fire.
pandirasbox 2 weeks ago
Predestination just meant that he knew man would fall into sin and he prepared his son before this happen, thus he predestined Christ to save us. I think this guy just misses basic concepts.
pandirasbox 2 weeks ago
Red herrings and Straw men
pandirasbox 2 weeks ago
If the flesh is inferior to the spirit then libertine sex orgies are ok? HAHAHA. That is how Caner reasons. Idiot.
pandirasbox 2 weeks ago
Loaded nonsense statements, "God is the author of sin if you believe in predestination"...just like Irenaeus claimed that if you believed in a demiurge separate from the creator then you were permiscuous and ate babies right?
pandirasbox 2 weeks ago
You should all stop arguing over your stupid Protestant nonsense and become Valentinian Gnostics :P
pandirasbox 2 weeks ago
"It is in fact..probably"? This guys language is so shakey...kinda like his falsified background in Islam. He looks like a fucking peanut head. Calvinism is a big issue in the church? Really? According to who?
pandirasbox 2 weeks ago
Falwell is a real piece of work like Caner
pandirasbox 2 weeks ago
So is there a video of the actual debate???
2010ksaul 2 weeks ago
THese people make me mad. I want to stomp them with bigfoots filthy dick
mrclitlips 2 weeks ago
The Arminians and Calvinist have beautiful theologies: A-God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian);B-God is Sovereign,therefore he will accomplish all that he desires(Calvinist).Since God desires the salvation of everyone and he has the power to accomplish this desire dosen't it seem logical that he will accomplish this desire(the salvation of everyone)? Isn't the combination of A and B Biblical Universalism? Because both believe in eternal hell they must reject each others theology.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
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I like learning about ISLAM, but not from ignorant, they have only =>False Fake attacks!!!
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akeello 1 month ago
God bless james white...the reformed faith is the truth.
Erap1muzik 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik Calvinism falsely teaches Election is Grace. The correct Biblical definition of Grace is, “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT be saved.” Election is of paramount importance to a Calvinist, where repentance and Calvary are secondary, since Calvinists believe their election is what saved them. John Calvin never saw himself as a hell bound godless lost sinner without any hope in the world. Jesus saves, not election!
MrTruthSword 1 month ago
@MrTruthSword YOU are lying!
WCOFTheology 1 month ago
@WCOFTheology I must have misunderstood every Calvinist who ever preached about foreordination to salvation, prior to believing in Christ, including John Calvin, being the only way salvation is made possible. If you believe you were elected to salvation, then you believe Election is Grace. Calvinists teach that Grace, which is the gift of God in Eph. 2:8 is Election. Calvin believed his Election and baptism as an infant completed his salvation. Where is Christ in that Reformed Theology equation?
MrTruthSword 1 month ago
@WCOFTheology If you believe in the precepts of Calvinism then you believe that prayer can never change anything, if what you pray for and ask God for today has not been predestined from eternity past. You are therefore not at this moment in time at the mercy of a caring loving God, whose watchful eye is on the sparrow, but you are at the mercy of all predestined events that can never be changed, not even by God Himself. People who really think about Calvinism reject it as being defect ridden.
MrTruthSword 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik Reformed Theology doesn’t do justice to God’s love, goodness, and mercy for all lost sinners. “God commands all men everywhere to repent” and He sets before all men both life and death and He instructs us to “choose life”. He is a brilliant minded, loving, generous, kind and wonderful God who wants everyone to reject Satan and choose Christ, after the Holy Spirit draws them to Himself by the hearing of the Word alone. Faith comes by the hearing of the Gospel, and not by election!
MrTruthSword 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik Hebrews 4:12, “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
God deals with men as He continuously examines the thoughts and intentions of their hearts. Do Calvinists actually believe God predestines every thought and intention of every heart and then judges the very thoughts and intentions He predestined?
MrTruthSword 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik God does not and will not control anyone’s heart or mind for any reason. In the case of Paul on the road to Damascus, God physically blinded Paul with His light, which at first got his attention, and God then reasoned with him, and Paul changed his own mind. God brought the event that caused Paul to change Paul. That’s how God works in the hearts of men. The Bible says God knows the end from the beginning. It does not say that He forces the end from the beginning.
MrTruthSword 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik God will cause a man's heart to change and become hardened by bringing events into his life that will force him to make choices. God being omniscient knows what a man's choices will be and then God can use the man's wrong decisions for His glory. That is exactly how God, in the case of Pharaoh, showed Israel His might. And in the case of Jonah, God caused the events that forced Jonah to change his mind and make the right decision to go to Nineveh as he was first told to do.
MrTruthSword 1 month ago
@Erap1muzik Calvinism is a scam! It's all just based on wordplay. For instance, 2 Pet 3:9 “God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”. Calvinists say, “Peter was writing to the Church and not those God chose for hell”. Well God had that verse published in the New Testament for all men to read, so anyone who reads those words can personally apply it to mean God wants them to repent and be saved. As in, “God commands all men everywhere to repent” Acts 17:30.
MrTruthSword 1 month ago
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@Erap1muzik A Question Calvinist can't clearly directly answer, children that are beaten, some raped and even murdered, God preordained this before their birth is what a true Predestined Elected Calvinist believes, but will not admit it. examples are JonBenét Ramsey, Dennis Rader and John Wayne Gacy, Jr. who molested and killed 33 teenage boys. Since we live in the New Testament now, thus sins are no
hemet92544 4 days ago
this caner guy is a cheat and thug
TheLaig88 2 months ago
just look at this fucking guy does anyone believe that he is truly a man of god, this guy is a fucking fraud and manipulating you wake the fuck up
TheLaig88 2 months ago
@TheLaig88 You say that there is too much evil for God to exist,how do you know what evil is if God hasn't given us a standard to go by?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN evil is manipulation, evil is abusing little kids evil is violence evil is creating people and making families love each other and then causing one of their own to die evil is slavery (remember that one in American history?) evil is where one man looks handsome and another ugly.....if you enjoy others thinking for you well then allow me to think for you i will set you free...all religion constricts the heart and oh evil is making man god...wake up and accept the world for what it is...
TheLaig88 2 months ago
@TheLaig88 You've described what you believe is evil,but why is it evil?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN Didn't Hitler believe he was doing right when he killed all those people? In Africa men rape little babies trying to get rid of AIDS,they believe they are doing a good thing.So how do you know what evil is unless there is a divine standard and if there is a divine standard then there has to be a divine Law giver,right?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
There is no god. All religion is bullshit. There is too much evil in the world and too many people are sick immoral and brutish. We are now living in a time in which Islam is blamed for everything. That’s what people who believe in religion do, if they are not fighting with each other then they’re ready to fight with other belief systems. Judaism, Christianity, Islam Buddhism Hinduism are all false and immoral. The masses are lead by the few. There is no such thing as liberty of any sort.
TheLaig88 2 months ago
@CBALLEN That verse must be understood in context. Romans is Paul's tract to lead Jews to Christ. See Rom 2:17. It's Jewish focused, and Rom 9:1-3 specifically addresses Paul's love for...the Jew. Paul then uses examples that Jews can relate to, which are from their Jewish history. The Jews rejected the Gospel of grace in favor of the Law of works, and Paul concludes with the Jer 18:1-13 Potter hardening, which is temporary and partial. (Romans 11:25) C's are guilty of proof-texting, again.
MrTruthSword 2 months ago
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@MrTruthSword Still makes no difference,God hardens who He will and has mercy on who He will,so salvation does not depend on the choice or will of man,it depends on God who shows mercy and He showed mercy before time began to the children of Promise,all men,Jews and Gentiles.Face it,the Bible can't be outwitted.God chose HIS OWN,HIS WAY,BEFORE TIME and left the goats to their own devices.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@MrTruthSword I do want you to know that I am not debating with you to gloat either,I too had to be shown,so I do respect you standing up for what you believe,but when God's word proves us wrong and shows us the truth,we as Christians should accept and love the truth,that's what it's all about.God Bless.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBAllen Although God knows a person's ultimate destination of either Heaven or Hell, if a person ended up in Hell, but didn't have to be, and in fact, has absolutely no excuse whatsoever, because they rejected God's very real and sincere, bona fide, free offer and gift of salvation, having died on the cross for their sins, then you could logically say (and without senility) that God was patient and longsuffering towards them, not wishing at all for them to perish, but to come to repentance.
MrTruthSword 2 months ago
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@MrTruthSword The thing is Jesus didn't die for those who go to Hell.God poured all the wrath on Jesus for the sins of His elect only and we know that God has plenty of wrath left to pour out on the wicked.So again,no,God is not patiently waiting on all men to come to Christ,that is ridiculous to even believe that.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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@MrTruthSword If your dog died and you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was dead,would you continue to buy him food,call him to come to you ,try to walk him ect.? It would be even sillier for God to wait on the goats to come to Jesus,and that's just the way Arminians believe.Of course God has made it clear in Eph 1 that He chose His own to save before time according to His good pleasure alone and not dependent on anything the person does.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@MrTruthSword Romans 16 16 says, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills(chooses) or the man who runs,(works) but on God who has mercy." What does not depend on the man who wills? The answer is, God’s mercy. God does not look at a person to see what or who he is and then decide to show mercy, love, or save that person based on what He sees in that person. To say so would be to say that we are somehow worthy of something before God on our own. This is unbiblical.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN correction,Romans 9:16
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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Rev. 13:8 & 17:8 tells us that those NOT written in the Lamb's B.O.L. before the foundation of the world R GUARANTEED to follow the beast. In Eph1 :4-11 Paul tells those believers that the reason why all believers believe in Christ is because God chose 4 them to believe before time began,so we know God is not ignorant of where any of His creation will end up .All men appointed to eternal life will believe ,those not appointed will never believe and He's not trying & failing 2 save them.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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For God so loved the elect that He sent His only Son! C'mon, guys! God wishes that only the elect would come to salvation! God decides who goes to hell no matter how much they love God! God DELIGHTS in sin, he DID create it! ALL SOVEREIGN. WE ARE ALL PUPPETS! THIS IS THE MATRIX! --Calvinism is a joke, a mockery of God...
dzpisx 2 months ago
After hearing the Gospel preached, I came under the power of the Holy Spirit and acknowledged my sin and I repented. I then received the gift of faith to believe in Jesus Christ. Rom 10:17, “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word”. Meaning, God gives faith to believe in Christ to everyone who hears the Gospel preached. Rejecting the Holy Spirit after hearing the Gospel is what damns men’s souls. God never withholds the faith to believe after hearing the Gospel message of forgiveness.
MrTruthSword 2 months ago
@Aletheia828 It’s almost like Calvinists don’t really grasp the relationship between God the Father and Jesus the Son, and how the Father draws, and how the Son draws, and how the Father gives to the Son, and how the Son gives to the Father, and how they are both drawing and giving.
Jesus said, “If you have seen me you have seen the Father, I and the Father are one”. And “No one can come to the Father except through me.” And “if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me”
MrTruthSword 2 months ago
@MrTruthSword John 12 - "all" is referring to jews AND gentiles.John 10:16 "I have other sheep, too, in another fold. I must bring them also." Rev.5:9 "and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation." How many people is God drawing?
Aletheia828 2 months ago
@Aletheia828 ALL men know about God and ALL are without excuse. Romans 1:21, “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them”, “Even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful”.
And since they knew God but chose (free will) not to be thankful to God, God did what? “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind”
MrTruthSword 2 months ago
@Aletheia828 God’s drawing of all men to Himself is to everyone by and through the power of the Gospel. Anyone who responds to His drawing is then saved and becomes a new creature in Christ. According to Calvinism the elect were always new creatures by way of predestination. Your salvation was what, just a formality that completed your election?
MrTruthSword 2 months ago
@MrTruthSword "God’s drawing of all men to Himself is to everyone by and through the power of the Gospel."
If God was drawing all individuals to Himself by and through the Gospel,as Arminians believe,instead of All Men simply meaning Gentiles, Jews,rich ,poor,ect as the Bible means it,then All men Universally would be saved,but as we see in John 6:44 all drawn to Christ by the Father ARE saved.So either the Bible"s wrong or you are cause people R in Hell and have been 4 A long time.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN ""God’s drawing of all men to Himself is to everyone by and through the power of the Gospel." Of course God draws by the gospel - proclaimed by written or spoken word - and draws no other way. I can't think of a single New Testament conversion in the ABSENCE of the word, written or spoken. So then faith comes by hearing .. hearing by the Word. It (faith) doesn't come any other way. God draws .. yes .. how? Mysteriously? Directly? A lil nudgie? Or by the gospel - the good news?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannall The word DRAW means to overcome all resistance,such as drawing a bucket of water from a well breaks gravity or drawing a bow string back.So when God draws one to Christ,such as in John 6:44,it shows us that God is successful in justifying and causing them to come to His Son who has a 100% success rate in saving them.God changes the hearts of the natural man through His gospel,some immediately and some over a period of time,as in, some plant and some water,but God gives the increase.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN 'The word DRAW means to overcome all resistance" No, it doesn't. Where'd you get that from. The word translated "draw" typically has the metaphorical meaning "to lead, to coax, to heavily influence, to impel." So when God "draws" you, He, of course, is leading you - how? through the written or spoken word and never otherwise. "God changes the hearts of the natural man through His gospel." <-- absolutely. The inward change is wrought thru the medium of the written/spoken word.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "it shows us that God is successful in justifying and causing them to come to His Son who has a 100% success rate" Apparently not, else there is no meaning at all to the parable of the Seed - the gospel of God's son - falling upon BAD SOIL and producing nothing. The gospel may be rejected.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Draw = helkuo. It is a strong word which means “to tug, draw, or compel,” and is found 6 times in the New Testament. In each usage, whatever was drawn came; there is never a suggestion or hint that whatever was drawn was not accomplished.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "Draw = helkuo. It is a strong word which means “to tug, draw, or compel,” That's at least some better: Helkuo isn't particularly "strong", but it means "to lead, to coax, to draw, to impel, to compel" - but NEVER to force. Had you translated it, you would have said "irresistibly compel or force", I guess, because that's what you mean. That's not true. Through His word, God leads, draws, compels, coaxes, etc, but never quite FORCES.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll helkuo actually means to drag,of course God never has to drag anyone against their will,He changes ones heart and in doing so changes their will.Here's the deal,not one person that Jesus died for will go to Hell and not anyone who ends up in Hell won't deserve it,right?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN "Here's the deal,not one person that Jesus died for will go to Hell and not anyone who ends up in Hell won't deserve it,right?" Of course that's wrong! Christ tasted death for all men. And do you not believe just about as I said an old negro would say, "When de callin come, you is hepless. If de callin don't come, you is hepless. You is hepless befo' de callin, durin de callin, after de callin. Jes' sit on de stump n wait on de callin." Is that not pretty accurate?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "helkuo actually means to drag,of course God never has to drag anyone against their will,He changes ones heart" Yep, that's the literal meaning, and the metaphorical one, which is actually the more common, is "to lead, to coax, to draw, etc." I have YET to see "overcome all resistance" in a lexicon, but that's how you defined it. I asked for a lexical reference and such is lacking. And yes, God changes one's heart - how? through the written/spoken word and no other way.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "'The word DRAW means to overcome all resistance" <-- I'd like a source for that - a GREEK LEXICAL source, because something can be coaxed, drawn, led, etc and STILL, after all that, such coaxing prove ineffectual - and the desired results falls flat.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll The 3 soils are kinds of men,God is not trying to save ever person,"all men" in most contexts means,types of men,Jews and Gentiles,slave and free,rich and poor,black and white ect.John 6 :44 is proof positive that man has no free will in salvation,since NO ONE CAN COME or Believe in Jesus unless the Father first DRAWS them and once that has been done Jesus keeps and raises them to glorification on the last day.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "John 6 :44 is proof positive that man has no free will in salvation,since NO ONE CAN COME or Believe in Jesus unless the Father first DRAWS" I have stated and agreed that God draws - only by means of the written or spoken word. You simply say, "God draws," and the suspicion is not lacking that you mean some mysterious, inexplicable manner - but you never quite say. John 6: 44 proves nothing for you: God draws through his word.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Only men who have been appointed by God before creation to eternal life,will ever believe.In.Eph. 1 :4 -12 ,Paul is explaining to the Ephesian believers why they believe,Paul tells them that God has chosen all believers before the foundation of the world and He chose them by the wise council of His Will alone and NOT on anything in the individuals.Why don't you listen to this video and check out what's being said with your Bible?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN 'Why don't you listen to this video and check out what's being said with your Bible?" I have and I did. It sounds like a bunch of mold and dust from Calvin's medieval castle. "Can't do a thing to be saved, can't do a thing to be lost." Or as the coloreds might say, "When de callin come, you is hepless. If de callin dont come, you is hepless. Either way, you is hepless." That's Calvinism, boiled down.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Jer.38:13 Then they drew(helkuo) Jeremiah up with ropes and lifted him out of the cistern. And Jeremiah remained in the court of the guard.You see,this kind of drawing overcomes all resistence,in this case gravity, it uses the same word in both places.When one draws water he never coaxes or pleads with the water to get in the bucket and pull itself up does it?God draws us in a way that always succeeds.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN 'Then they drew(helkuo) Jeremiah up with ropes and lifted him out of the cistern." That's LITERAL .. not metaphorical, and besides, you are taking a Hebrew phrase, translating it into Greek, then into English. I know what the literal meaning of the word is, but I never heard anyone, even a Calvinist, try to give a literal meaning of helkuo, as in drawing water, to helkuo as in drawing sinners. (Guess I have now).
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "God draws us in a way that always succeeds." Christ tasted death for all men? Well, He really didn't, did He, as per you? God commands all men to repent? Well, He really doesn't, does He? Drink ye all of it? No, drink a little of it. Having done all to stand, stand? Do a little, then stand. Go into all the world? No, go to a little of it. I wanna know precisely HOW you define "all", because you must have a dandy "take" on it.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Actually Christ tasted death for all races of men,but many out of those races of men,so Christ died for many..In the O.T. only Jews could be saved,even when the occasional Gentiles were saved they had to become Jews first,but when Jesus came,He saved the Gentiles as Gentiles.Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "In the O.T. only Jews could be saved,even when the occasional Gentiles were saved they had to become Jews first" Oh, good grief. Certainly the Gentiles could be saved, and without Judaism at that, worshiping under the old Patriarchal system. What makes you think that everyone was lost other than Jews?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll I guess that you knew something that the believing Jews didn't huh? Acts 11:18 means nothing?"When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” This was a new work,God called the Gentiles who were not His children,His children at this time,CHILDREN OF PROMISE.
You really need to study before speaking on matters that you don't know about.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "I guess that you knew something that the believing Jews didn't huh?" Possibly. Please note that you made no effort at all to disprove that the old Patriarchal system of Adam, Noah, Enoch, etc did not click right along, despite the fact that Abraham's seed was set apart as God's chosen people. Under which dispensation was old Melchesideck (sp) worshipping? What about Cornelius? His prayers served as a REMINDER, a MEMORIAL of "in they seed all nations shall be blessed."
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN You actually think that, at some point - maybe with Moses - EVERY person either had to be a JEW or a proselyte to Judaism in order to be saved. From Moses on down (or whatever), all non-Jews and non-Jewish proselytes would be LOST? No provision for them at all? You'd need to prove that point, because I maintain that the Patriarchy continued right on to Cornelius for the Gentiles. The majority of the OT is silent concerning them for good reason.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "“Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life." <-- something the Jews never had until the death of Christ, and the Gentiles never had until Cornelius. The Jews, God's chosen race, was granted "repentance unto life" FIRST. They erroneously thought that the Gentile - worse than a dog - was barred from such. That's why it took a number of miracles to convince them.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll God partially hardened the Jews against Jesus so that the Gentile could be saved.Romans 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "God partially hardened the Jews" About like God hardened Pharoah's heart. God hardens hearts INDIRECTLY, through means, then the person hardens his OWN heart. So if you think the old Patriarchy was set aside - null and void - hundreds of years before Cornelius ... do tell: exactly when was it set aside? With Abraham? With Moses? Where?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Matthew 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
Doesn't look like Jesus is trying to save everyone if He doesn't give everyone the secret of eternal life,does it?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN Matt 13? You quit too soon. "Doesn't look like Jesus is trying to save everyone if He doesn't give everyone the secret of eternal life". Well, verse 15: "this people's heart is waxed gross (become hardened) ... their eyes (now watch) THEY have closed ...." Who hardened their hearts? dulled their hearing? closed their eyes? THE PEOPLE DID, that's who. They closed their own eyes - God didn't swoop down and close them.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "God partially hardened the Jews against Jesus" I repeat, God supplied the CIRCUMSTANCES, the CLIMATE, but the Jews hardened their own hearts and, as a nation, bore and bear the consequences of such actions. Such is parallel with Pharaoh's condition. Yes, God hardened his heart, but how? Through means. Then Pharoah made his choice: Pharoah hardened his own heart, as did national Israel 1,500 years or so later.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Romans 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"This is all speaking of the Jews who God has partially hardened.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN Mark 4 is simply a parallel of Matt 13. I never denied that God hardened them. But how? Your position is that God somehow MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE for them to see and hear, when the Bible explicitly, not implicitly, states that the people willingly closed their own eyes and willingly covered their own ears. Are you beside yourself? What are you going to do when turned lose?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll John 10:25-26 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
When Jesus calls to His Fathers unregenerated sheep,the Father regenerates them to new birth and they believe.These Pharisees did not belong to the Father,all Israel is not Israel,in fact,later Jesus tells them they will go to Hell.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN And you know that the hardening of Pharoah's heart is a fine example of the phrase "harden the heart". The trouble is: you also know that Pharoah hardened his own heart and willingly said "I will not" - the Bible says so plainly. So your reply to that, so far, has been three naughts, two ciphers, and a goose-egg.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "John 10:25-26" I've never seen a sect of people so confused on sheep and goats. You actually think they were made sheep first IN ORDER THAT they could HEAR. But wait, why does eternal life come LAST? The sheep hear, follow (obey), THEN He gives them eternal life. I'll agree with that - but you won't. You think they are given eternal life FIRST and then are sheep, THEN they hear Him, THEN they follow him.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Here's the thing.The natural man loves sin,all he thinks is sinful,so God is holding men back from doing all they wish to do,if God didn't restrain us we could all turn out like Jeffry Dahlmer or worse! The way God hardens someone is by removing His restraint from them.Joseph was sold into slavery and went through a lot,some of his brothers wanted to kill him but God stopped that sin.When all was said & done his bros. feared him,but he told them cont. 1-a
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "The way God hardens someone is by removing His restraint from them." <-- got a verse for that one. That's absolutely ridiculous.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN cont.1-a that he realized that what they meant for evil God meant for good to save many people alive.Now notice,he didn't say what you meant for evil God used for good.He realized that all that happened to Him was God's plan even though God used his brothers to carry it out.His bros. did exactly what they wanted 2 do,but at the same time,God decreed that it would happen.Even Jonah in his disobedience ended up on a ship that had sailors who God wanted to save.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN Well, good night. Maybe you'll be better in the coming day - cuz you've lost it tonight.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll I'll pray for wisdom for you.God Bless
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN "I'll pray for wisdom for you.God Bless" Likewise. Because God knows: when you "get off" of TULIP, and try to start discussing the Patriarchal, Mosaic, and Christian dispensations, you NEED it. And, remember you said for me to "read about it before commenting." Sir, thou art the man. The Law of Moses was effectual until the CROSS, not until JOHN broke 400 years of silence.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN And try to tell me: (A) when the old Patriarchy began and ended and (B) when the Mosaic dispensation began and ended. And try to prove both. That's why I asked til you hit the bottle and began re-writing Calvin's Institutes.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "if God didn't restrain us we could all turn out like Jeffry Dahlmer or worse!" <-- so the problem is that God didn't restrain Mr. Dahlmer, eh? That's a novel approach. All those people died, not because Mr. Dahlmer was a psychopathic killer - but because our heavenly Father simply refused to "restrain" him? You were doing better earlier this evening. Do you drink?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Look,God has a purpose for all evil,doesn't the Bible tell us that ALL THINGS work together for good for those who love God and are THE CALLED according to His purpose? Do you think that God could stop all evil if He wanted to?He's stopped men from sinning many times in scripture that we know of,and probably billions of times we don't know of.Or is everything out of control and God's just trying to maintain until the end because His experiment got out of hand?lol?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@lllannallll Can the natural man obey God and come to Christ?
Can a natural man understand or know about spiritual things,such as salvation?
Do all men have faith to believe in Christ?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN "Do all men have faith to believe in Christ?" Have faith IN ORDER to BELIEVE? "Belief" IS "faith" - and "faith" is "belief". All men who are of age and mental competence have the ABILITY to believe in Christ, but some "close their eyes, shut up their ears, and decide not to believe".
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN And I'll drop a question: who hardened Pharoah's heart, just out of curiosity? Did (a) God harden his heart, (b) Pharaoh harden his own heart, (c) Both, or (d) neither. There is no other possibility. I certainly believe the answer is "c", but I have no doubt at all that you'll have to say "a" - knowing the Bible says that pharoah hardened his own heart. You'd never admit that he had a choice in the matter.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Even Joshua said that the ancestors of the Hebrews worshiped false gods before the flood.God was the first one to harden Pharaoh's heart,but Pharaoh hardened his heart as well.The one thing missed is God caused the EGYPTIANS to treat the Hebrews evil to start the whole ball rolling.PS 105:25 He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "God was the first one to harden Pharaoh's heart,but Pharaoh hardened his heart as well." Well, good: and God hardens the hearts of others the same way - thru means (not directly). Pharoah still had a CHOICE in the matter: he chose a lie over truth, war over peace, etc. and thus hardened his own heart.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "Even Joshua said that the ancestors of the Hebrews worshiped false gods before the flood." Sure they did. Those evil men - even evil generations - "waxed worse and worse" before the flood, though if they were born totally depraved in the first place, I fail to see how they could have "waxed" much "worse."
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Deut 32:8-9 When the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number in his heavenly court.For the people of Israel belong to the LORD; Jacob is his special possession.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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@lllannallll Will you now answer these questions please? Can the natural man obey God and come to Christ?
Can a natural man understand or know about spiritual things,such as salvation?
Do all men have faith to believe in Christ?
All men in most cases means all types,Gentiles and Jews,it very seldom means ALL men head for head without exception.Read Luke 16:16 too.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@lllannallll Deuteronomy 7:6-8
King James Version (KJV) 6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN And I repeat that your teaching is: (1) All men are born - not BECOME, but are BORN - depraved sinners, though for the life of you, you can't name what SIN they committed (2) God kinda picks and chooses "this un n that un" to regenerate - thus respecting one individual over another (3) the "elect" ones are forced to bow because they got the calling and (4) the non-elect ones are doomed now, doomed then, and doomed in the future because God didn't ALLOW them to be saved.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll There was no death before Adam's sin,there was to be no death,however after Adam's sin death came to all men and reigned even before the law of Moses,this was the punishment for Adam's sin on all of Adam's posterity,that's why babies die,the punishment of death came to all people because of Adam.God killed babies in the flood,at Sodom and Gomorrah,remember 10 righteous could not be found,proving God doesn't look at babies as righteous.All must be born again.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "proving God doesn't look at babies as righteous.All must be born again." So He looks upon all babies as totally depraved? Your contention is that all babies born, say, within the 5 years leading up to the flood were not only totally depraved, but every last one of them was non-elect? It seems to me that the death of babies during the flood does much more to prove that babies are SAFE - not saved. They were never LOST.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN "Maybe you can do better than your cohort on King Saul: God's dealings with him are pretty detailed. God's spirit came upon him, and God gave him a new heart. Was he elect ... saved? God's Spirit departed from him, he sinned horribly, he became an enemy of God, and killed himself. Was he elect with God's Spirit far from him? Was he non-elect to start with? Surely he wasn't saved, then later lost - so do tell. <-- Comment on that. In detail, please. Just curious.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN And why don't you tell us when the old patriarchy actually ended? I've asked that, but you simply list the usual cast of misapplied verses. Sir, you are the one who affirmed that none but Jews could be saved before the cross, and I asked, "Since when?" And no answer.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllanna It ended when Jesus came into the world to save HIS PEOPLE,The Mystery hidden in the O.T.was that God's elect(those chosen before time to believe) would be both Jew and Gentile and that these are the Children of Promise spoken of in Isaiah,they are a people from all races.This was a RADICAL IDEA to the Jews,almost too fantastic to believe! And then to be told that Salvation is purely through the gift of faith that God Himself must give was mind blowing and scoffed at by the Jews.Cont.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CB Cont,The fact that God saves by Grace through faith was something the Jews could not accept,even today Christians misinterpret the Bible to include many works of men to achieve their salvation.Keeping sacraments, Sabbath Keeping,water Baptism,sinner's prayer,speaking in tongues,knocking on doors and keeping score,ect.All these have one common thread,Arminianism,the idea that MAN not God,is ultimately the Captain of His own ship.The mystery has been revealed to some,but not to others cont 2.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CB Cont 2 Jesus came 2 save those who the Father has GIVEN HIM and He does this perfectly,so Jesus actually saves, He just doesn't make men savable if they decide themselves.Salvation is not by the will(choice) of man,it's not by the one who runs(works) but it is of God who shows mercy 2 whomever HE WILLS.GOD knew everyone by name before time,He knew HIS SHEEP and the goats too,He's not trying 2 save the goats either,why would He B,they're the 1s that He chose 2 leave in their sin. CONT 3
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN Excuse me: I dont need the Calvinist ramblings. I asked WHEN the patriarchy ended. I asked WHEN the Jewish dispensation ended. So far, I haven't seen either one answered. The reason for asking is that you can't tell us UNDER WHAT SYSTEM or HOW Melchisidek was worshiping. And I say the system of Noah, of Adam, of Enoch, of Abraham, of Seth, of Abel PERSISTED all the way til Cornelius. Disprove it.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN You're other option is that, for 1,500 years, all of humanity was LOST - except a few Jews. No evidence to that effect, either - you just spurt it out. Cornelius wasn't a JEW ... he wasn't a PROSELYTE ... he was worshiping and praying just as Noah did, for instance. THAT is the point. And, I repeat, not one frazzling thing ENDED when, as you said, "Jesus came into the world." You can't prove that one, either.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN CONT 3 Open Theism has emerged as consistent Arminianism,they see the problem that Arminians don't see,they have 2 deny much of scripture 2 B consistent, they realize that if God truly knows all things then man has no autonomous free will.God says that He plans the future and calls it to be and it is,that ALL His plans are firm,that what He says He will do,He does Open th.claims,God is not all knowing,is not all powerful,and is NOT omnipresent,natural men can only choose a false god.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN And as far as the rhetorical ramblings, i'll simply repeat what the colored guy said, "When de callin come, you is hepless. If de callin dont come, you is hepless. Brotha, you is hepless." That sums it up: helpless on the front end, helpless in the middle, helpless at the end, and helpless in Hell because God never chose to help you. Made it the T in TULIP, but couldn't make it to the U.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "It ended when Jesus came into the world to save HIS PEOPLE" Huh? I didn't ask when the Mosaic (Jewish) dispensation ended. Looks like that's what you tried to answer. I asked when the PATRIARCHY - that system of religion practiced by Adam, Noah, Enoch, Abraham, etc. The religion handed down by the fathers - the Patriarchal Dispensation. When did it end? And prove it.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "It ended when Jesus came into the world to save HIS PEOPLE" And whatever you're trying to make reference to ... NOTHING ended "when Jesus came into the world." Where'd you get that idea? I asked (politely) for some kind of proof. You were the one that said I needed to "read". Well, I'm saying YOU do. When did the Patriarchy END? When the Mosiac (Jewish) dispensation END? That's what I asked.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@lllannallll "And why don't you tell us when the old patriarchy actually ended? I've asked that, but you simply list the usual cast of misapplied verses. Sir, you are the one who affirmed that none but Jews could be saved before the cross, and I asked, "Since when?" And no answer."
No one is saved before God regenerates them,all are under God's wrath until HE CONVERTS THEM.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN 29 For those whom He foreknew(uniquely fore loved), He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined(marked out), He also called(through the gospel); and these whom He called, He also justified(counted righteous); and these whom He justified, He also glorified.(raised in spiritual bodies)
Where does man get any credit in these verses?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@lllannallll Arminians claim that we are saved by faith through Grace,instead of by Grace through faith. Arminians believe that God has given all men the same amount of grace and then the difference lies with each man,to prove either they are smarter,more spiritual,better looking ect.that MAN improves on the grace God gives them,that's why one chooses & another doesn't Arminianism teaches men muster up a manmade faith and then trade it to God for salvation.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@lllannallll "And why don't you tell us when the old patriarchy actually ended? I've asked that, but you simply list the usual cast of misapplied verses. Sir, you are the one who affirmed that none but Jews could be saved before the cross, and I asked, "Since when?" And no answer."
Since God chose the Hebrews through Issac,God chose them not because they were the largest people,but because they were the smallest. probably 99% of O.T. Gentiles are in Hell now,God had no Gentile prophets.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "And why don't you tell us when the old patriarchy actually ended?"
I believe John the Baptist was when the new work began."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached; and every man presseth into it" (Luke 16:16).
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN Well, Adam, Abraham, Enoch, Noah, etc were not JEWS - they were the patriarchs and acceptably worshiped God for about 2500 years until the Law of Moses was given at Sinai. This was the ONLY system of worship for these 2500 years, inaugurated by God and consisting, as far as I know, only of animal sacrifices. Then, upon the giving of the Law to the children of Israel, they became a separate group of worshipers.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll You're right,I guess it did start with Adam ,but there probably weren't too many who ended up in Heaven on the other side of the flood .I believe it was in the time of Enos when men began to blaspheme the name of God where it's mistranslated"called upon",and then at the tower of Babble God divided the nation according to the number of the" sons of God",but He kept a portion for Himself.This does not change the fact that probably 99% of all Gentiles went to Hell
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "but there probably weren't too many who ended up in Heaven on the other side of the flood ... This does not change the fact that probably 99% of all Gentiles went to Hell." Sir, at the TIME of which you are speaking, there was NO SUCH THING as a Jew or Gentile. There were no "children of Abraham" nor "children of Israel" because Abraham and "Israel" hadn't been born yet.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll At the tower of babble God kept a portion for Himself,He always has a remnant,these would become His people,the children of promise.Will you now answer these questions please? Can the natural man obey God and come to Christ?
Can a natural man understand or know about spiritual things,such as salvation?
Do all men have faith to believe in Christ?
All men in most cases means all types,Gentiles and Jews,it very seldom means ALL men head for head without exception.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "Can a natural man understand or know about spiritual things,such as salvation?" Can an unsaved man know what salvation is? Can he know what being lost IS? Of course. What kind of question is that?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "Do all men have faith to believe in Christ?" <--- that question is an absurdity. Faith IS belief! It's like asking, "do all men have belief to believe" or "do all people confess Christ to confess Christ." I don't know what you mean, but surely you can come up with a better one.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@lllannallll 1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Romans 8:7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Do you have any idea what these 2 verses tell us about the natural man?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
Jesus tells us that man must be born of water,of flesh,natural birth- and born of the spirit, of God Born Again,to see Heaven.We also see that the Holy Spirit that makes one BORN AGAIN is like the wind ,it comes and goes when it will and no one knows where.Salvation is not of him who wills (chooses) nor of him who runs(works),we also know man is unable to believe in Jesus unless God makes him able through the Holy Spirit.This is why man cannot make himself born again.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "Jesus tells us that man must be born of water" No, He didn't. "and born of the spirit, of God Born Again" No, He didn't. He didn't say either one, did He?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "Maybe you can do better than your cohort on King Saul: God's dealings with him are pretty detailed. God's spirit came upon him, and God gave him a new heart. Was he elect ... saved? God's Spirit departed from him, he sinned horribly, he became an enemy of God, and killed himself. Was he elect with God's Spirit far from him? Was he non-elect to start with? Surely he wasn't saved, then later lost - so do tell. <-- Comment on that. 3rd time I've asked for some kinda explanation.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3:1-7).
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN John 3: 3-5 mentions not ONE thing about being "born of water" THEN being "born of the Spirit." That's two births. John 3: 3-5 speaks of ONE birth .... two elements ... "born" .... of what? ... "of water and of the Spirit." THAT is the new birth ... being "born again". One birth, two elements, one new birth. You're trying to have two births in there, somehow, and call one of them "born of water" then have yet another one called "born of the Spirit." You know that stunt won't work.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Born of water means born naturally,of flesh,then of spirit,of God,these are called parallels where the same thing is said in two different ways.Don't tell me you thought that born of water meant water Baptism?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN "Born of water means born naturally" The phrase is "born of water and of the Spirit". One "born" - two "elements". I've told you that, but you ignore it.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "Don't tell me you thought that born of water meant water Baptism?" "Born of water and the Spirit" has reference to water baptism, among possibly other things. You know what proof you have of your "commentary"? Not a bit. Nothing. You just assert it. So I'll issue a few challenges. I know, of course, that you won't take them up - you can't. But I'll do if for good measure.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN #1. Fine one ... not five or ten ... but ONE ... reference in profane Greek writings in which the phrase "born of water" was EVER used to mean "childbirth". Of course, there IS NOT reference. So, anyway, do you have just one such reference?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN Well, here's #2 .... out of 20 or 25 so-called church fathers who commented on the verse, name ONE .... not five .. .but ONE who said "born of water and of the Spirit" refers to ANYTHING OTHER THAN water baptism. Can you do that? Floor's open. Is there ONE? From Iranaeus to Polycarp to Cyril to Justin Martyr and all in between, find ONE.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN And #3 .. Find more than one birth - one BORN - of ANY KIND in John 3: 3-5. Sir, there's only ONE: "born ... of what ... water and the Spirit." You are twisting it to try to force "born of water" to be ONE THING, then "born of Spirit" to be another. That's not gonna fly. Few, if any, reputable commentators would take such a position. So anyway, there's #3 for ya.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN And by the way, I see NO post from you that even MENTIONS King Saul, so as far as I'm concerned you never answered it. I asked specific questions with reference to him, and a fairly thorough search reveals no attempt at a reply from you. Wanna try again?
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN "these are called parallels where the same thing is said in two different ways." Here's your parallel: Ye must be "born again". What does "born again" mean? Unless a man is "born of water and of the Spirit." That's the parallel. What you propose is a perversion, and here it is: "Unless a man is "born of water" ( the you force that to mean childbirth for no reason), then years later "born of the Spirit" (you'll have to ADD the word "born" there) .... there's the distinction.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN 2 Timothy 2:20. “Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified . . .”. How according to Calvinism, can a man who is fitted for destruction, CLEANSE HIMSELF of dishonor, to become a vessel of honor, when Calvinism denies that man can even have a free will to desire to cleanse himself?
MrTruthSword 2 months ago
@lllannallll I've already answered about Saul,you'll have to find it.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN "I've already answered about Saul,you'll have to find it." I find no post in which you even mention King Saul. It might be there - but I do not see it, and I looked back 4 pages. If it's there, point it out.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN "Can the natural man obey God and come to Christ?" Absolutely. In so doing, he is changed, but certainly all men begin as "natural men." I don't know what you hope to gain by that.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll . Duet 7:7-9 but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:JN.4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN Maybe you can do better than your cohort on King Saul: God's dealings with him are pretty detailed. God's spirit came upon him, and God gave him a new heart. Was he elect ... saved? God's Spirit departed from him, he sinned horribly, he became an enemy of God, and killed himself. Was he elect with God's Spirit far from him? Was he non-elect to start with? Surely he wasn't saved, then later lost - so do tell.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN So, beginning about 1496 BC, we have two groups: (1) the ones worshiping according to the Patriarchs, which system was available to the majority of mankind and (2) the ones worshiping by a separate law, inaugurated by Moses upon Sinai. Hence, the two programs in effect at once for 1,500 more years. Cornelius was of the former group.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "I believe John the Baptist was when the new work began."The law and the prophets were until John." Well, that's a peculiar position, since the Son of God kept the law. Why? It was STILL in effect. The Mosaic law was taken away, nailed to the cross by Jesus Christ when He DIED. The NEW will - the NEW testament - could not have become effectual until the testator died.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN ""The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached" It was "preached" as coming, as "at hand", as "nigh unto you", etc. but not as PRESENT. And Cornelius was STILL worshiping according the terms of the old Patriarchy. Gentiles had not been incorporated into the kingdom at all. Hence, his prayers went up as a "remembrance". "In they seed, ALL nations shall be blessed."
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN By the way, since I mentioned the promise "In thy seed, ALL nations shall be blessed" and since (1) I presume we both believe ALL nations simply refers to the JEW and the GENTILE, and (2) since you believe "ALL" to not be everyone, pray tell, who is not included in that?
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN "Actually Christ tasted death for all races of men,but many out of those races of men,so Christ died for many" I wasn't aware that "races" is either actually in or implied in the verse: could you give the Greek word from which it is translated?
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@CBALLEN "they had to become Jews first,but when Jesus came,He saved the Gentiles as Gentiles." Name one. Seems to me that Jesus personally pronounced "salvation" on none but Jews.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Even out of the Gentiles,only those appointed by God before time to eternal life believed.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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@MrTruthSword So God is drawing everyone you say? If that were the case, everyone will be saved in the last day. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." Are these two different 'Hims'?
Aletheia828 2 months ago
@CBALLEN God did not make man for the purpose of sending man to hell so that He would receive glory in doing so. He made man knowing that there would be millions who would love Him and many more who would not. God, being the most righteous of all judges is in no way diminished by guilty sinners not accepting His free offer of pardon, any more than an earthly judge being rejected after making the same offer. “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” Rom 10:13
MrTruthSword 2 months ago
Moreover, regarding Acts 13:48, if C's took it to mean that all of the Calvinistically elect believed, then that would suppose that they author knew who the Calvinistically elect were (which C's admit that they don't know), and that these all *simultaneously* believed, and not at some point later in life, and that if all of the Calvinistically elect believed, no one who left that day had a second chance. This would be unlike any time in history. Solution: C is wrong as usual.
MrTruthSword 2 months ago
@MrTruthSword Are you an open theist? Do you believe that God knows absolutely everything or do you believe God must learn as He goes?
CBALLEN 2 months ago