John Piper Why Is Hell Hard to Take Seriously

[DPMosteller]

@joelieherp

I'm not sure what you mean, by your comment? John Piper said nothing about Volume, Space, Mass, Form, or Shape, so why the word either? He did not deny the reality of Hell, simply that mankind (all those without Christ) confirm 1 Cor 1:18 by considering it foolishness, because the thought itself is so horrific. Sound observation.

[DPMosteller]

@ndzoko

We have told you the truth, and why we believe; the proven reliability of the Bible, and the documented and historically proven evidence for the person and work of Jesus Christ. Faith is trust, and trust needs an object to be valid. We believe because what can be known about God is plain to all men, clearly perceived from the things that are made, so that all mankind is without excuse. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ now and you will be saved. You will know it by His ongoing presence.

[DPMosteller]

@ndzoko

Key words: For all I know (at present) will kill you. Have a nice life, and try not to die.

[DPMosteller]

@ndzoko

Hold that thought, you'll be there sooner than you think. Maybe it won't be as bad as the Bible claims it will be, and I'm sure eternity will be over before you know it.

Do you really think reality adjusts to what you believe? If so, do us all a favor and not believe in IRS. On the proven reliability of the Bible, on the documented and historically proven evidence for the person and work of Jesus Christ, on His teaching on the reality and horror of Hell, I would suggest, you not go.

[PREPAREFORTHEKING]

if nonbelievers start believing in hell....then they would also be forced to change from sinfull living....it is easier to NOT think about it...in these last days almost no one talks about SIN anymore, an entire generation forgot about sin

[DPMosteller]

@PREPAREFORTHEKING

Very well said!

[vernuf]

Actually, it's hard to take seriously because it's a childish threat.

[DPMosteller]

@vernuf

That's an exceedingly childish response. You should consider the reliability of the Scriptures, they are beyond rational question. You should consider the archeological evidence, the historical evidence, the fulfilled prophesies, along with the 95% of all Science confirming the Scriptures.

To that, you respond irrationally. Go your way then, you're without excuse. Hopefully, Hell won't be nearly as bad as the Bible describes it, and I'm sure eternity will be over before you know it.

[vernuf]

@DPMosteller I know you are, but what am I? Seriously? There is no archeological evidence. There is no historical evidence. All the "fulfilled" prophecies are self-fulfilling, vague, or after the fact. And it's a blatant lie to say any science confirms the scriptures. Then repeating the same childish threat.

Grow up

[DPMosteller]

@vernuf

Thanks for making my point as to your complete ignorance on this subject. Everything I said is true, and verifiable. As for 95% of Science confirming the Bible, that statement is not only easily verifiable, but the majority of the evidence is irrefutable according to Newtonian and Quantum laws.

Again, you are without excuse.

[vernuf]

@DPMosteller And one more thing, if you're going to set rules on commentary, follow them yourself. Otherwise you're just a hypocrite. And your god had something to say about hypocrites.

[DPMosteller]

@vernuf

What in the world are you talking about? How could I be considered a hypocrite after giving you a much more respectful and informative reply than you obviously deserve?

[eingram21]

@DPMosteller

That wasnt very respectful. I agree with your overall points, but you did not provide any evidence other than just saying it exists, and all you did to @vernuf was make him angrier. Be careful how you approach things like this, even if you are speaking truth in a wrong way, it can cause damage.

[DPMosteller]

@eingram21

There are several major theological issues at stake here that you do not seem to be aware of. God is furious with this person every day, and their eternal destiny is Hell at this point. They have everything they need or could ever want in understanding this issue. They are suppressing the truth of God that He has clearly revealed to them! This is not an exchange of opinions or worldviews. My job is to shut their mouth and show the bankruptcy of their opinions, compared to God's Word.

[eingram21]

@DPMosteller Defend your statements with the Bible. I would argue that God is not furious with them everyday, because he loves them and wants them to come to repentance. His wrath comes after death from what I have understood.

Also, your job is not to "shut their mouths." Your job is to love God and to love others. They will know we are Christians by our love. I am not questioning whether you are correct, I am challenging your way of sharing the truth that you have.

[DPMosteller]

@eingram21

Look up the word ὀργή in reference to God's anger and you'll find the word translated in our day as orgy. What in the world does orgy have to do with God's anger? Well, its an uninhibited, unrestrained, passionate emotional torrent or tsunami. We apply it to physical intimacy, however, in the Bible you will find it applied to God's wrath against sin and those who perpetrate it. I'm sorry, but, you're wrong. Want to argue? Then study the material, I'm not interested in your opinion.

[eingram21]

@DPMosteller regardless of the first aspect, which I am still not convinced, please examine yourself carefully on the second. You dont see any man of God in the new testament who was on a mission to shut peoples mouths.

1 Peter 3:15 "but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect"

Take note of the gentleness and respect part.

[DPMosteller]

@eingram21

Does it concern you that you were dead wrong on your first two points? It should.

Balance is the all elusive aspect in representing the living God, particularly in our interaction with unbelievers. However, over the last 50 years, because of the fear of men (Proverbs 29:25) most seem more willing to offend their Creator and Lord than someone who totally rejects Him and suppresses His truth. I'm not. Overemphasizing the gentleness aspect, we have dishonored God. Don't do that here!

[DPMosteller]

@eingram21

I'm familiar with Peter's statement. Did you read it to the end?

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; having a good conscience that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed.

"To shut the mouths of the obstreperous" is our main charge as Christ's apologists, as John Calvin noted it in his Institutes.

[eingram21]

@DPMosteller Also, read this excerpt from 1 Peter 3:15b-16 "always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame." Gentleness and respect is key.

[DPMosteller]

@eingram21

Wrong! TRUTH is the key, not gentleness. Truth is the most important thing on this planet, not love, not gentleness, not respectfulness, TRUTH. Bottom line, Why was Jesus born? Well, He said, He was born and came into the world to... bear witness to the TRUTH. He said He was TRUTH. He called God's Word TRUTH. He referred to the third person of the Trinity as The Spirit of TRUTH. Seems clear to me. So, if you don't have this foundational principle as your starting point, don't argue.

[Strefanasha]

it was never hard for me to take hell seriously.

and taking hell seriously drove me insane. it never drove me to God or the gospel: that was done by the love of God manifest to me by His divine revelation.

so I fault Piper's analysis

[HeReformedMe]

excellent...and spot on

[FAITHandLOGIC]

"Hell" as an internal suffering and torment is 100% unbiblical and is paganism at its finest.

Neither Hades, nor Tartaroo nor Gehenna (the 3 Greek words translated into Hell) are described as a place of everlasting torment.

Hades is the grave. Tartaroo is the realm of prisons for fallen angels and Gehenna is the lake of fire where the unsaved perish.

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

Exactly what is your view of Hell: Never, Forever, or Just for Awhile?

[FAITHandLOGIC]

@DPMosteller If you are referring to the final punishment (Gehenna) at the 2nd Resurrection, the Bible is clear. They resurrected, then burnt up and destroyed.

Malachi 4:3 gives a good example when he describes them as ashes under their feet.

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

Here are some scholarly publications from The Master's Seminary Journal.

tms.edu

Hell: Never, Forever, or Just for Awhile?

Jesus' View of Eternal Punishment

Paul's Concept of Eternal Punishment

Eternal Punishment in John's Revelation

A Kinder, Gentler Theology of Hell?

[FAITHandLOGIC]

@DPMosteller Well, being burned to death (which is called the 2nd death in Revelation) is by no means kind or gentle.

The problem with your argument is that it doesn't say eternal "punishing". It says eternal "punishment". This means that the results of the punishment is eternal. You die ... it's forever. That is eternal. Jesus gave two options - eternal life or perish. He never spoke of an eternal soul that lives forever in heaven or hell.

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

I don't mean to be rude, but you have neither proper faith or logic. I did not even posit an argument, I simply suggested some publications on the subject from my seminary. Proper faith takes its doctrinal position from careful, and accurate exegesis of Scripture. The hermeneutic rules! If you get that right, your theology will be Biblical, not based on your personal philosophy.

I would be happy to discuss this with you, however, there doesn't seem to be much we have in common.

[FAITHandLOGIC]

@DPMosteller So answer me this: you think that a person who lives 60-70 years and rejects Christ justifies an Eternity of pain and suffering? Did Christ suffer for Eternity as punishment for the sins of the world? No. He died and rose from the grave. He didn't go into hell. He went to the grave.

I suggest you research the Hebrew and Greek words that have been translated into Hell because non of them consitute an eternal place of torture.

The pagans believed in an eternal soul.

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

I have reviewed all of the papers from The Master's Seminary Journal that I suggested to you. Dr. Mayhue's paper Hell: Never, Forever, Or Just For Awhile is on my desk as I'm writing this. I could never give you the quantity or quality of sound theological work that you will find in these publications on this subject. I highly recommend them to you. They answer all of your questions.

[FAITHandLOGIC]

@DPMosteller So you're response to me is that you have an essay I should read? The word Hell comes from the Norse goddess and afterlife abode Hel just as "Hades" is the equivalent in Greek. Just as the Greeks used Hades as the grave (sheol), the Germans used the Norse word "hel" for the same purpose. It never meant a place of firey tormet. Hell meant to bury but it has evolved in meaning over time.

I noticed you removed the comment accusing me of thinking I'm the center of the universe.

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

Yes I did remove that. It was unkind and uncalled for. Please forgive me.

[FAITHandLOGIC]

@DPMosteller No problem! :)

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

Since you asked me a question, I'll answer it. Yes I do. God's eternal punishment is just and right because of the cost of God's plan of redemption. The cross. God's wrath as eternal punishment is metered out precisely for every unregenerate person based on the state of their sinful nature, the sin they have committed, and the amount of light they were given and rejected. Christ is not finite. He could satisfy God's demands in full, redeeming the entire world back to Himself.

[FAITHandLOGIC]

@DPMosteller This is where I disagree. Eternal suffering is not just. The eternal punishment of death is. I still don't understand why people think that God will burn them for eternity when the Bible doesn't teach it. God's word consistently says that those who believe receive Eternal Life while those who do not will perish. Perish means destroyed. The Word uses terms like "perish", "burned up" and "destroy" to describe what happens to the wicked on the day of judgement.

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

An Excellent point. However, as Mayhue puts it: "the subject is immense in scope, embracing elements of Theology Proper, Anthropology, Hamartiology, Soteriology, and Eschatology." I believe the Bible does teach eternal punishment. It is almost expected in some theological circles, symmetric with His love and grace. God's love and wrath are two elements/attributes of His personality and nature, and must be accepted since scripture teaches both exist in harmony with each other.

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

The Greek words for destruction/ruin are never translated annihilation. Rev 14:10-11, 20:10 torment... forever, no rest day and night, tormented day and night. Smoke of torment is an eternal phenomenon. Those being tormented have no rest. Rev 19:20 the beast and false prophet are still alive after 1000 years in the Lake of Fire. Rev 22:15 those outside are continuing to exist in judgment. Luke 16:24-25 conscious torment after death. Matt 10:15, 11:22-24 degrees of punishment.

[FAITHandLOGIC]

@DPMosteller Yes, I'm familiar with that argument. If you read Rv 20:10 you'll see that the "forever" is referring to Satan and the Antichrist, not people.

Having no "rest" is referring to not being in Christ. In Hebrews 4 when we are challenged to enter into his rest or when Christ says "they will not enter into my rest", it is referring to the 1k yr kingdom. That is the 7th/last Day of creation. In prophecy, a day is like 1k years. 7 days of creation = 7k years of earth.

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

Your logic is difficult to follow at best. The term forever is dealing with the duration of the torment, and exegesis of that passage will clearly show that.

Having no rest means: having no rest. You are committing the formal/informal fallacy of equivocation by changing the meaning.

And a thousand years is like a day, so what? Why are you trying to change the subject? Do you remember the original point; eternal punishment? And what about all of my other references?

[FAITHandLOGIC]

@DPMosteller Also, I'm no concerned if it's not translated as "annihilation" because the word "PERISH" means destroyed. It's is called the "SECOND DEATH'.  Death does not mean you're still alive but absent from God. Death means absence of life.

As for the lake of fire, you are mistaken. Satan is cast into it AFTER the 1000 years.

Ecc 9:5 - "or the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything"

Luke 16:19-31 is a PARABLE so that doesn't apply here.

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

You should be concerned. You're making one error after another. My point was that the beast and false prophet are still alive after 1000 years in the Lake of Fire. No perishing here.

Luke 16:1-14 is the Parable of the Shrewd Manager. Luke 16:19-31 is the Rich Man and Lazarus which may possibly be an actual account, since its the only time Jesus ever used a person's name. Nevertheless, my point stands, whether its a parable or not. Annihilation is not supported by this passage.

[NHBChristianTalk]

@DPMosteller Here is a question for you FAITHandLOGIC. How can you say "1000 years" when the Bible in N.T. Greek never says "1000 years"? Jesus never mentions such a time nor the apostles. John's Revelation was copied into Greek and never says such a time frame. You can read the English TRANSLATION but the Bible was not written in English. It reads in the literal Greek grammar, "thousands of years" (all plural). Also John is talking from a vision from Heaven not Earth. Thanks.

[DPMosteller]

@NHBChristianTalk

Is this addressed to me, or as it appears to be, Faith and Logic?

[DPMosteller]

@DPMosteller

Just went to your website, very impressive. You did a workman like job on the 1000 years issue, congratulations! I've downloaded your video on the cross for our channel with full credits, and I am linking your page on the 1000 year controversy to both of our websites and added your site to our resources page. Nice work. 

[NHBChristianTalk]

@DPMosteller Was this comment for me or someone else? Thanks for you're reply.

[NHBChristianTalk]

@DPMosteller Sorry but it was for Faith and Logic.

[NHBChristianTalk]

@DPMosteller Was your above statement about my website and video or for someone else? Thanks for your reply.

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

After spending time in researching this issue, I've noticed this is a fairly recent question. This was rarely mentioned before the mid-nineteenth-century. Yes I know Origen is the exception, along with two other minor followers of his thinking, but for the most part it seems to go hand and hand with today's post-modern mindset. So, let me ask you this; do you support capital punishment?

[FAITHandLOGIC]

@DPMosteller Was Irenaeus of Lyons a "minor follower"? He followed Polycarp who was a disciple of John.

Irenaeus calls those "heretics" who maintain that the saved are immediately glorified in the kingdom to come after death, before their resurrection. - Against Hereies Book 5 Chapters 31 and 35.

[DPMosteller]

@FAITHandLOGIC

Why are you using this statement from Irenaeus, it has nothing to do with the issue of annihilationism? The two minor students of his position I had in mind were Gregory of Nazianzus (ca. 300-374) and Gregory of Nyssa (ca. 330-395.) Do you support capital punishment?

[josiahmorris]

wow

[redjove2000]

There are plenty of transitional fossils between ape and man, you can find the evidence here on you tube

[DPMosteller]

Right. To someone like you, there is more than enough evidence on You Tube to support your position. Because, in rejecting God, you have been left only with foolish presuppositions with which to construct your worldview.

But, our worldviews are in conflict, and apart from the existence of God in the paradigm, your world view, as I understand it, would never, could never develop self awareness, an appreciation of beauty, or an understanding of the nature and the basis of an ordered universe.

[redjove2000]

I think you've got that the wrong way round, I have developed an appreciation of the beauty of nature, and the universe as they actually are. Not burying my head in two thousand year old sand, but feeling wonder of the way things really are. It is you who hide from reality, only allowing things that agree with your world view in. Just like you censor these replies, I ask you again if jesus's forgiveness is 100% as you state above, how come that chap above is burning in hell?

[DPMosteller]

What I said is true, thanks for making my point. The proof of the validity of the Christian worldview is that without it, you cannot prove anything. And I mean anything.

The reason you think and feel the way you do is not attributable to your worldview, nor could it be. You are so foolish you don't even realize your worldview could never provide an appreciation of the beauty of nature. That is a direct pirating/plagiarism of the Christian worldview.

By choice. God offers, but men reject.

[redjove2000]

Im pretty sure people had an appreciation of the beauty in nature before jesus came along, the greeks, egyptians and chinese for example, many non-believers have a much better understanding and appreciation of nature than you, sir david attenborough for instance. But youre deflecting away from my question in the previous reply, how can jesus be 100% forgiving and then allow eternal punishment? You can answer the question or continue to resort to personal insult, how very christian of you.

[DPMosteller]

This material is over your head. That is a fact, not a personal insult. Reread my last comment. Your worldview could never provide an appreciation of beauty without pirating/plagiarizing from the Christian worldview you reject. I answered your question: By choice! God offers forgiveness, but men like you reject it. Then they insult God by claiming He has not provided sufficient evidence that they might believe, when He said that He has made it perfectly clear, so that they are without excuse.

[DPMosteller]

You are embarrassingly arbitrary in your reasoning. My position as a Christian apologist is to use logic and rationality to show the superiority of the Christian worldview over against the arbitrary worldviews espoused by skeptics like you. Without getting into self-evident, self-attesting or self-authenticating authority, you really do not have the foundation and support for your position; that we as Christians enjoy.

God put it this way: "the fool has said in his heart there is no God."

[WillysWoodPile]

The most common misconception I remember hearing is--"We'll all have one great big party when we go to Hell."

- They do not realize that Hell is the absence of everything good. And the Bible says that "every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights...

-23 minutes in Hell is a book everyone should read.

-Again, most problems arise with the misunderstanding of Hell, or the wrong perception thinking a slap on the wrist punishment. Hell is far worse.

[DPMosteller]

Well said. Very well said. And I will get the book and read it this week. Thank you!

Their conscience will be fully functional also; bearing witness of all the opportunities, all the understanding of God's gracious gift of salvation that they rejected throughout their life. They will live with the constant refrain that they should have settled out of court with Christ. They should have accepted His substitutionary payment for their sin when they had the chance. It is no slap on the wrist.

[Birdieupon]

"However, they have refuted the "theory" of evolution"

Total ignorance. In science, "theory" means something which has been rigorously tested, attacked and proven to explain all the data in the best possible way. Evolution is no more a mere "theory" than that of gravity and electromagnetism.

All your questions show ignorance of evolution. Check out Ken Miller, a catholic evolutionist. He'll educate you.

I hate Christians who appeal to anti-science to spread the gospel. It just doesn't work.

[DPMosteller]

Darwinian evolution is not a fact. In fact, no credible scientist who wants to remain credible debates the issue anymore. They are afraid to.

The Big Bang is not a fact. The creation of the universe in a massive display of power is a fact. It had a beginning. But because of the limits of mathematics they can only reduce the known universe down so far. They cannot reach zero. But working from the other direction the process was originally going, there is no problem. God created ex nihilo.

[DPMosteller]

The Kalam cosmological argument does not need the Big Bang. The Big Bang needs the Kalam argument to appear credible. Kalam only posits that the universe had a beginning. It does not state who, what, when, where, how, or why. Just that it began.

[EZEEKEEL]

The Law of God will chase men to the foot of the Cross and no further.

[DPMosteller]

The Bible says men do not want to even retain the thought of God in their memory. The thought of Hell puts them standing right in front of God in judgment.

The Bible says there is no fear of God before their eyes. The thought of Hell is the reason. They will not even let the reality of judgment in Hell forever concern them. So they wrap themselves in the lie of Darwinian evolution, and Big Bang cosmology in spite of the facts.

[lucasdasilvamaria]

Yes, i see a lot of people in my campus disguising a laugh when i say "hell, judgement, sin"... But when they realize i'm serious, not joking or telling some interesting stories, they get serious, and allow themselves for a moment to think about those horrible things that are sin, hell and jugdement.

May we preach the gospel as seriously as it is.

[DPMosteller]

In Vietnam I talked to some guys about Christ one afternoon on the bow of the USS Vancouver LPD2 (built for Vietnam war) before a big operation was to begin the next morning about 2:00.

Brought one of them back very badly wounded later that morning. His smart mouth and attitude about Christ had suddenly changed, but it was too late I think he died in my lap, but not sure.

Most are like that. Death is still a 100% certainty. So is Hell. So is Christ's love, and grace, and forgiveness.