"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No one taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. “ Have you red?
No one can kill Jesus, because he has received from God commanded
3.For this statement in the Quran, the Prophet Muhammed sas for over 1400 years to this day about the many "devout Christians" serious offense: Quran Surah 4:157-158 "That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah" -but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge,
12.It seemed the only way - they would kill him and he would suffer, but nothing came of this, because God gave Jesus a.s. the might for this.
The chronology is simple
1. Jesus is afraid of the impending
2. Jesus prays
3. Jesus a.s. receives an offer from God that gives power, he can not be killed and to avoid suffering. For God loves him, that he dedicated his life to the sheep they lead and it can therefore not true that Jesus suffers and is killed
4. but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed not him-nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
And again Jesus: John 10:17-18 17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18No one taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. "
5.If Jesus a.s. has received from God the power that he cannot be killed by no one, then the Quran has confirmed exactly the Gospel, as Jesus was not killed with certainty
Actually it was - when Jesus a.s. not dead, it has no benefits for the people suffered and equipped with such a power - it is certainly not a victim!
With this verse, the Christians were the sacrifice lie before an OFF
And as they tried to save himself…again with a lie..they say:
6."Jesus does not mean, no one can kill him - much more was meant, no one deprive him life, he does do it quite freely ..." With this statement the Christians want to make us to believe, this verse was true and inspired by God, but Jesus a.s. only says that he voluntarily leaves his life.
Luke 12:49 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed," Wow, how voluntary ...
8.Mark 14:36 "And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I want, but what thou wilt."
Still not enough - so much for “voluntarily”?
Mark 14:39 "Once more he went away and prayed the same thing."
Not enough?
Ok
All good things are even three, isn’t it dear Christians?
“ About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (Which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?") "
So proof enough
Total contradiction when they say Jesus said so, it would not be torn from your life.
So after all the quotations we see of voluntariness:
10.Back to John 10:17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again."
As shown, does not volunteer! But no one can kill him, because
Jesus a.s. says: "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again This commandment have I received of my Father..."
When Christians say that no one could take him his life-he does it voluntarily, they can forget it as I showed with evidence.
11.So says John 10:17 Clearly .. Jesus a.s. has the power no one can kill him, this power he has received from God the gift of God, it all seemed just so, all was shown us what they thought would kill him and told many contradictory stories.
But in fact, Jesus had a.s. has the power - he could not got killed, he had been not sacrificed, and certainly not suffered!
The Qur'an confirms the Gospel of John, as the Qur'an proclaims, it only confirms the truth of the preceding headings
I find it interesting you put this on your channel, I watched the whole thing and James White's argument is excellently detailed, logically thought out and he demands the same level of criticism on both sides and shows many of Shabir's circular arguments. My fav part is where he pointed out this kind of debate would never be allowed in most Muslim countries. Muslim is the fastest growing FORCED religion, My American Muslim friends forget that from time to time
@sonofcohen who forces anyone to become Muslim? what army forces the thousands of people who accept Islam in America, Europe, Africa, Asia, MIddle East, etc?? the greatest forced religion? self deception is a beautiful thing.
@ancientstaffpub I'm sorry if you are not aware of this reality. In places like Africa and the Middle East it is a crime to have any other faith besides the Muslim faith. Christians are kicked out of countries for talking about Jesus, soldiers arrest those who start Christians churches, my father was held captive by Muslims in Africa for talking about Jesus. I have friends right now in Muslim countries who are secret missionaries because they hurt or put in prison for faith.
@sonofcohen This is totally false and is not helpful in fostering community relations. There are Christians in Africa and in the Middle East such as 10 million Coptic in Egypt. Also the same criticism could also be made against parts of southern America but at the end of day how does all this proof that Jesus died for the sins of God's people when Deuteronomy 12:32 clearly forbid human child sacrifice?
@sonofcohen What has this kind of debate would not be allowed in part's of the Muslim world got any thing to do with, was Christ sacrificed for the sins of people? This is just another red hearing and smoke screen made by James when he can't address the topic. And his consistency point is another smoke screen which he makes when ever he cannot answer the objection. And as a matter of fact these types of debates has taken place in parts of the Muslim world.
The common term for God is LORD... but the question I was posing is what establishes that this God of the Hebrews is the same as allah ? There appears to be several notable differences between what the Hebrew scriptures writes vs what islam is saying and telling me. Also, Jesus never taught that the Hebrew scriptures were corrupt. Islam says that both the Hebrew/Christian scripture were corrupted. But Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.
the NT was written in Aramaic & Greek; the OT in Hebrew. Yes w/ the exception of Daniel few exceptions of angels delivering inspired text. Also, the accounts of most other prophets like Isiah, Moses, Jeremiah, Micah,etc;do not relate angelic msgs.The NT authors do not claim to have received their msgs. from angels.That Muhammad did not (could not) read the NT is very disturbing- it means he could not have known the complete truth & revelation of the world salvation works God did in Judea
@shieldsff You know,,,we respect all the prophets including Jesus (pbuh), He was one of God Mightiest messenger...If a muslim doesn't respect him that means s/he is not a true muslim.......I really enjoy talking to you...I'm sorry if i have mistakes...keep reading, keep searching,,maybe u'll find something interesting for yourself...nice to talk to you.
RE "Son of man"- Clearly, Jesus here is referring to the exalted, eternal figure from the book of Daniel. Also, this was not an isolated incident where the false religious leader accused him of blasphemy...He was similarly charged for healing on the sabbath; he was charged for saying He forgives sins; he was charged for saying to the hypocritical leaders "before Abraham was, I AM".It's impossible to merely consider Jesus a "good man" or a moral teacher- His claims are too fantastic & unlike any
@73geneva if Jesus (who you think as god) died for three days, then who ruled the world in that three days...Devil? can you imagine devil ruling the world...? Jesus never claimed himself to be god, or he never said worship me....who gave him that tittle? Paul....he gave him that tittle...and he made the story about how Jesus should died for the sins of humankind..and christian believe in him..that deceiver.
@shieldsff so you believe that god was dead? Your god?? does it mean that your god has an ending...? what a pity god hah... well, my God is much much better then yours... He has no beginning, and no ending (Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. Surah 112)
....we Muslim cannot accept powerless god, who ate, urinate, slept, tired, drank, and so on....sorry :)
actually, for humans it is not a matter of what we can accept- the issue is submitting to all mighty God based on what He says is truth..Followers of Jesus know that God is eternal, all able, all capable, infinite. Hebrews & Christians have had the revelation of One & only Lord for far longer than islam. I encourage U to examine your knowledge of God; men are created in His image. Father Abraham worshiped Jesus and Moses spoke to Him. You are deceived if you do not hear all the prophets
@shieldsff I'm sorry my friend,,,but older doesn't mean the right one...and yes we human have the reflection of God's nature but not in a bodily form, more in spiritual form,,God is Merciful, God is Forgiving, and so on, we have that nature also, I agree with that. but as soon as you said that God is look like His creation then we Muslim take exception for that..."there is none like unto Him"...
thanks- the NT was written in Aramaic & Greek; the OT in Hebrew. With the exception of Daniel few exceptions of angels delivering inspired text. Also, the accounts of most other prophets like Isiah, Moses, Jeremiah, Micah,etc;do not relate angelic msgs.The NT authors do not claim to have received their msgs. from angels.That Muhammad did not (could not) read the NT is very disturbing- it means he could not have known the complete truth & revelation of the world salvation works God did in Judea
The account of "most other prophets" did not have angelic messages. So what?
Why would he need to READ the NT and OT. He recieved revelation from God. How is that disturbing. This "complete truth and revelation" was given to him. The OT and NT are corrupted texts. The OT is is a better shape that the NT, which is unashamedly contradictory. The earlies complete manuscript is in GREEK from the 4th century, the time of the Nicene Creed.
Again, you assert that it was given to Him- I am attempting to validate simply the possibility of that. It is you who asserts that the original text was corrupted- the adherents of the original text have not asserted your text is corrupted- therefore some litmus test is required of you. the Nicene Creed was also in the 4th century, still before Islam. If it was corrupted then, why did the Koran written still much later tell muslims to refer to the scriptures if they have any questions
If you look at textual criticism of the Bible the evidence is overwhelming. The trinity doctrine was ABSOLUTELY NOT something that was fathomable withe Christians (who were Jews) in early Christianity. This idea that "Jesus is god, son of god, dying god, god-man" is an idea that developed over time and certainly was nothing new. Mithras and other pagan gods had very similar stories, and they were OLDER than christianity. Thats why we dont call the NT " the complete truth".
You will note that I posted the Sherma & Gen 1:26 where God is called Elohim (the nouns are not interchangable) - that is a plural so are the Hebrews contradicting? Can we focus first then on the authenticity of the Qu'ranic msg? Were there not also some islamic books under Al bu Khari ( sorry for the spelling)destroyed? In my view, for the Koran to have authority,it must be demonstrated that the source&msg are consistent w/the true revelations& that allah is the same god who gave the original
I dispute that the pagan Mithras idea has any resemblance to the doctrine of Christ. But again,the key issue that needs explanation is how can Islam assess that the original message(s) were corrupted ? Does that mean allah was unable to protect the truth that he gave? How can one be 100% sure that the Koran has not or is not now being also corrupted. I also question the accuracy of the Koran because Muham.,did not read the whole scriptures.What is the proof the angel delivered the truth of God
Prophet Jesus (as) spoke in aramaic, but the actually NT was written in Greek. No one knows who, when , where wrote any of the books (also for the OT). And there is too much of this to go into, but the alterations between the manuscripts that are available now are extraordinary. Passages were changed, AND THIS IS NOT DISPUTED, to lie in accordance with the developed doctrine of the trinity and that Prophet Jesus (as) was a "god-man". I cant present everything to you on youtube
well, Christians are radical monotheists- nearly all of them (along wi/some Jews would strongly disagree)
So, would you define what you mean by "Trinity"; why is it corrupt; what others example(s) would you cite of 'corruption' in the received texts? When was it corrupted ? Jesus did not call the Hebrew scriptures corrupted - were they still pure then. Muhammad told muslims to also read the scriptures
also, if you refer to impressive findings such as the dead sea scrolls, it's clear that your claim that the " OT is in worst shape" is questionable at best. The dead sea scrolls showed amazing consistency with much earlier Jewish & christian texts from the early centuries of church history pre-dating Isalm. But this is a digression: how is it established that Muhamm received true teachings from an angel
Ill send you PM's to answer these qs when i finish my exams. Oh and i said the NT is in a worst shape, not the OT. Anyway, we can continue this discussion, and i hate the fact i cant write as many characters in these stupid boxes lol!.
A final point I would raise is that the central truth of the original prophets was NOT submission anywhere or that there is a unitary god (for example, both baal & molech were claimed as [names] for god). The central truth is that there is One God and only One True & Living God. It is this God we are commanded to worship.
@Nazam44-thanks for responding- so R U implying that Moses received all his scriptures from angels? Assuming this is true, how come it's not a specifically, named angel (like Gabrielle who supposedly came to Muhamm.) ? As you cite Moses here, do you believe that this God of Moses is the true God of Creation. Since YOU cite Paul in this instance, are you implying that you accept the other writings & teachings of Paul? Do you accept that Jesus & Paul received their scriptures from angels?
@shieldsff The easiest way to prove a point to a person who believes in the Bible is to make reference to the Bible. This does not mean I believe in the Bible or consider it true in even that portion. It makes no difference whether or not I believes in the Bible passage I cited. It is important to believe what you preach, but remember that I am not preaching the Bible. I am are simply reminding Christians and Jews that if they had read their Bibles carefully they would have to accept Islam. CONT
@shieldsff -CONT To illustrate this point, consider that I quote the in John where Jesus says: “The Father is greater than I.” In order to refute anyone who says he believes the Bible and yet he says that Jesus is equal to the Father. Now I do not call God “Father.” But the Christian cannot turn around and demand that on the strength of the same verse you should now dare to call God “Father.” You will have to remind him that the Bible is a proof against him, not against you. CONT
CONT1- "I quote the in John where Jesus says: “The Father is greater than I.”
Hey, I am pleased to respond to this topic, but what I would hope before doing so is that you will respond first to the issues which I raised so that we might have an orderly exchange. Assuming then that you are correct in your citation of this scripture, is it UR position that Moses received all or portions of his inspired written scriptures from angelic beings ? Which portions ? Can you cite [any other prophet?
@Nazam44-In this instance, I would have to say to you NO; In my opinion, since you cite this text in an effort to advance your argument, you are inconsistent and illogical if you do not accept the full context. Now if you wish to contend that, o.k., shields, you believe this so therefore do you accept this, that might be a reasonable proposition. Also, I find questionable in the extreme UR assertion someone who reads the Bibl would accept Islam- I find no basis for that assertion here
@shieldsff CONT-I was just asking him why his statement about Jesus is opposite to his Bible? He cannot now ask you why your statement about God is different from the Bible because you never claimed to believe in the entire bible. Christianity was not built on the Bible. Christianity began long before the Bible was written and developed independently of the Bible. Some of Christianity's central doctrines are contrary to the Bible; herein lies the problem.
that is a speculation,but again U present no evidence for it. There is certainly no such thing as modern christianity w/o Jesus Christ & the teachings of the prophets and the Apostles (the Bible). I would like to know what proof you have that christianity's teachings are contrary to the Bible.But to argue on the basis of Islamic teachings would be flawed. Muhammad never read the scripture so what is the objective standard for his evaluations .
Note Paul is discussing the relationship of faith to the Law of Mose. Check out v.16- "now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made...." can I ask how was this promise made or communicated to Abraham- was it via the same angel sent to Moses & if not why? Also note vs 13-14:"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us: for it is written cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree; that the blessing of Abraham might come on the gentiles through Jesus Christ".
Common transliteration Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad
English Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God! The Lord is One!
Eloheinu — 'our God', a plural noun
Gen.1:26 And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
thanks my friend, but these statments are simply far too ambiguous and uncertain... Have you read the Torah or the Gospels? Both Moses and Jesus said that there would come false prophets. Therefore, credibility must be established and not taken for granted, How does one prove that muham. received both the 'true message' from the angel, and that the angel was not 'fallen' ? Where is the attestation that allah sent the original scriptures. What other prophets received scriptures from angels?
@shieldsff do you know why pagan use idol (satue, picture, image) to be their object of worshiping,,???it's because of their need to picturize their god, they can't accept to worship something unseen. so they need a figure that they can see, touch, hold, and etc......this is the nature of pagan....if you realize it then you look into your own church and your daily basis then you will understand what i'm trying tp say..
that may be,but that has NOTHING to do with the Christian faith in the Lord God & the redemption of Jesus .Look, I see no value in repeating the same points over & over.Did you listen to the vide closely? Have you read the Bible yourself ? Start with the Gospel of John; read the Torah & Isaiah, Hebrews & Christians not only received revelations long before the advent of Islam more importantly they received the COMPLETE TRUTH.Muham.NEVER read the New Testament
@shieldsff My friend,,,Muhammad (pbuh) was not the founder of Islam...But he is the last prophet of Islam...Our religion is the same as other prophets : Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, John the baptist and Jesus (pbut) which is submitting our will to the one and only God without associating partner to Him...they were Muslim as well as we are..God only sent one message through His Prophets to all human kind "Worship Him alone without associating partner toward Him"...
Christians worship the True, Living God only; we do NOT contend He has 'partners'. However, if you are referring to the Godhead, again, I can only recommend that you study the full account of the prophets & the NT. Unfortunately you did not answer any of my questions. Certainly, there is NO proof that ANY of the prophets, nor Jesus nor the apostles were muslim- on the contrary, they appear to strongly repudiate islamic assertions since they contradict the scriptures which are inspired.
Before i go, this comment is incorrect. The trinity has never been, and is not, monotheistic. And "Musilim" means submitts to the one true God. And again you are coming from a theological position when you claim the NT "was inspired". The historical evidence shows without doubt the the NT was chopped, changed, altered to suit the doctrines of the church, other books were cut completely from the canon etc.
@daneshjoo2011 - ok fine, these are just some of the questions I want to make sure I don't forget. Lastly, yes I think it makes a great deal of importance HOW the msg was received. If a person claims god gave them a msg from plates found in the gound (like the Mormons) this impacts the credibility of the source. You have asserted an angel appeared to Muhamm.- assuming he did, how does one know he told him the truth or that the angel was not fallen ?
well, in fact, you too are 'coming from' a theological position when you assert that the Koran was given by an angel. To establish that, you would have demonstrate, in part, that other true prophets received written scriptures from angels- please explain this. Again, you make serious, but unsupported allegations in my view when it's argued that the text was corrupted when we know Muhamm NEVER read the original scriptures & could in no reasonable sense evaluate them, Jesus said He is the Word
could you pls offer some support or proof from the Hebrew scriptures that the islamic god is the same as the God of the Hebrews and the Christians? There appear to be many differences- the most obvious is that neither the Hebrews nor the Christians call Him allah. Also, Christians claim the revelation of the Godhead. Where is the proof in the Hebrew scriptures that an angel (the same angel) delivered a message to the Hebrew prophets as it is claimed he did to Muhammad. Did Muhammad read the NT?
Also,Mr Ali is incorrect that a judge ( I take it he refers to a human judge ) has the power to 'forgive , i.e. pardon "sin' ( i.e. criminal violations). A judge is subject 2 written laws & directives. In western societies the judge is NOT above the law. If a defendant is brought before a judge having been found guilty of a violation of the law (e.g.,theft,rape, kidnapping, murder, obstruction of justice,intimidation, etc..), unless there are serious extenuating facts judges have NO discretion
jesus died for me? sorry thanks but no thanks i don't need your blood, God can forgive me if he so desire. Jesus blood is not necessary. it contradicts God's mercy and love if He tortures and kills His son. That's not love.
Very true. You forget one crucial thing as well. God is All-Mighty, All-Powerful. Created concepts do not apply to Him and he is not BOUND by them. He doesnt NEED to resort to DIE and SUFFER (whats the point) when He is All-Powerful and can forgive in an instant. It is utterly ludricous. It implies that God sees all this sinning, then panics and then says "Oh no i should send my son (oh wait myself...or is it my son..whatever), and die to save them." Allah is beyond what they say.
Shabir is more personal than White; he also is a very gifted speaker. I loved how he was brilliant at making a joke about "telescoping".
However, White's defense was much more strong. 40 words against 4 books containing the anjeel of Jesus in addition to the prophets of the Torah and the later testimonies of Paul etc. in the New Testament holds a lot more claim than 40 words. White made more sense.
@jessd6heart you are talking through your christian bias. White didn't bring anything new. everything he brought was totally debunked decades ago. he was totally shot out of water and proven to be in the presence of a much stronger and irrefutable sources. Ally's argument are solid and very very strong. 40 words of truths are sufficient to sink a whole theology based on paganism and lies.
The Bible is a fraud. The first 5 books were written by Moses and even Moses said, that no-one was to add to or take away from these words of God as commanded by Moses. So, the Bible should have ended right there. God was the only "creator" and if he was a God of "love," he would not have created a place of "Eternal Torment." Jesus said, "The Kingdom of God is within you." If God is like the ocean, we are like a single drop of water. We are part of God. God would not destroy part of himself.
James is weak. I mean he should try to refute shabir but he did not refute shabir. rather james basically wants shabir to bring the manuscripts to the debate. jame has weak arguments
Wow, what a debate. There needs to be more debates between Shabir Ally and Dr. James White. I as a muslim respect Dr. White as he is schorlarly and gives good points some of the times. One thing Christians need to understand is that Muslims never ever say that the Bible is 100% wrong or incorrect. On the other hand, Muslims also do not say it is 100% inerrant. But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6) This is the reason why Muslims differ
hmm.. Shabir Ally gives a new meaning to "Beating around the bush". I thought the host made it clear that they should "get straight to the point". Well how could he, James White threw everything at him including the kitchen sink lol
I would ask why anyone in their right mind would follow a religion that touts human sacrifice as a good thing as does christianity ...who would want a god who would sacrifice humans ...the idea seems repugnant to me ...look at the Mayan or Aztecs ...sacrificing a man 'Jesus' was the best idea the great god of the bible could come up with ?...sounds very bronze age to me ..sounds very bronze age barbaric human to me ...just a thought ...
The real issue is that the holy ghost came down from heaven after Jesus offered his sacrifice in heaven. The spirit is the witness and the proof that those scriptures are true (and not some blind belief that a book is infallible etc.) Jesus' sacrifice was accepted by God. Now have you received what Jesus' sacrifice obtained - the holy spirit baptism? The rest is philosophy. The spirit does not come in the name of anyone except Jesus. All else is something else.
What one believes and what one can demonstrate historically are usually two different things.
-Robert J. Miller, Bible scholar, (Bible Review, December 1993)
LOL!!! THAT EXPLAINS YOUR BELIEFS IN A NUTSHELL, YOU NUT.
It is said that the last recourse of the Bible apologist is to FALL BACK UPON ALLEGORY. After all, when confronted with the many hundreds of biblical problems, allegory permits one to INTERPRET ANYTHING HOWEVER ONE MIGHT PLEASE.
"Many modern Biblical archaeologists now believe that the village of Nazareth did not exist at the time of the birth and early life of Jesus. There is simply no evidence for it."
-Alan Albert Snow (The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read)
"It was not until the THIRD CENTURY that Jesus' cross of execution became a common symbol of the Christian faith."
There are no texts from within the first 20 years what the hell are you talking about. And go research the synoptic Gospel issue. The Gospels aren't even written by their true authors[ or who they are ascribed to!]. The fist bible wasnt even completed until 300+ years AFTER Jesus supposed death.
Talk about not "quoting" accurately..LOL. The first "Gospel" writings were written within 20 years of Jesus death, and added to with the Gospels that further shared from it's Christian tradition. While islam "begins and ends with the word"..Christianity simply documented tradition from it's earliest followers..the Apostles of Jesus. If you look at the writings of Saint Ignacius, you will see a parallel to the oldest writings and tradition of Christianity.
@Vasilis719 “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me.” (Luke 19:27) “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me.” (Luke 19:27)
“If anyone comes to me and does not HATE his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE .” (Luke 14:26)
"Anyone who is captured will be RUN THROUGH WITH A SWORD.Their LITTLE CHILDREN WILL BE DASHED TO DEATH RIGHT BEFORE THEIR EYES...their WIVES RAPED by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will SHOOT DOWN THE YOUNG PEOPLE WITH ARROWS. They will have NO MERCY ON HELPLESS BABIES and will show NO COMPASSION for the CHILDREN." [Isaiah 13:15-18]
NO WONDER so many serial killers and psychopaths quote the bible, its full of murder and mayhem. It permits genocide, rape and murder of children. Ridiculous cult.
Gospels written during the first 20 years of Jesus' death? Where is your proof? You are lying out of your ass. All you are doing is saying what you believe with no documented proof to support your thoughts. Lol. Bring some evidence to the table not what you "think" about the gospels. Here is some food for thought. Christian scholars and historians' thoughts on the bible's authenticity:
Some hoped to penetrate the various accounts and to discover the historical Jesus...and that sorting out "authentic" material in the gospels was virtually impossible in the absence of independent evidence."
-Elaine Pagels, Prof of Religion at Princeton University
"We can recreate dimensions of the world in which he lived, but outside of the Christian scriptures, we cannot locate him historically within that world."
-Gerald A. Larue (The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read)
"All four gospels are anonymous texts. The familiar attributions of the Gospels to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John come from the mid-second century and later and we have no good historical reason to accept these attributions."
-Steve Mason, professor of classics, history and religious studies at York University in Toronto ["Bible Review", Feb. 2000, p. 36]
Furthemore, the "names" of the authors wasn't kept to honor THEM, but to serve the sentiment of Christian theology. Whether "John", or "Matthew", or "Luke" wrote it, isn't what makes it true; the tradition gives it "truth". While Christianity is a religion of witnesses, and communal..islam is a single witness religion; with a self serving "messenger"..no contest..LOLOL. mohammed has nothing other than his claims; he couldn't perfomr ONE miracle, and made errors constantly.
It is foolish of you to claim one man - a prophet no less - has less authority than 40 + ANONYMOUS authors. The "tradition" has nothing to do with truth. The gospels are not EYE WITNESS testimony it is HEARSAY. YOU SYMBOL IS A CROSS THAT WAS USED AS A TORTURE/MURDER MECHANISM SO YOUR SWORD ARGUMENT IS POINTLESS [pun intended].
NATIONAL LIBERATION FRONT OF TRIPURA - FORCES PEOPLE TO ACCEPT JESUS AT GUNPOINT.
KKK - Terrorists. Hitler - CATHOLIC TERRORIST. Jim Jones etc.Peace?LIES
Now..LET'S SEE.. first of all; islam thinks of Jesus as born of a virgin, performed miracles, and was the Messiah(annointed one "of God"); gee, who but "God" has that "authority"..and the same "man"(mohammed) who denounced Jesus as a "prophet", is the same "man" who couldn't perform ONE miracle, was not born of a virigin, the annointed Son of God. While Jesus was "sinless" by even islam's definition..mohammed was full of sin(pedophilia, murder, selfishness)..continued..
mohammed married a 9 year old(by her own words.."Aisha"), spoke in spite("I will strike terror in the infidel; strike off their heads"), and kept 1/5 of "looted"(stolen in war)things for himself. He gave himself special acceptions for numbers of wives, concubines(what religion has "whores" as a religious "atttribute"??!!!!LOLOL), and preached sex with "women whom the right hand posseses"(slave girls). Also, far be it from a muslims to speak about "force"..continued
You are BEYOND a moron..LOLOL. The "Cross" is a "symbol" of "torture", theirfore "sacrficie"; not a symbol to go "torture" other people, like "swords" in islam..LOLOLOL. Go grow a brain..LOLOLOL. No one is "forced" to "become" Christian at gunpoint..LOLOLOL. the KKK don't even accept the Bible as it is; and claim Jesus was "aryan"..LOLOL. Not exactly a good defense for islam..hilter hasted "Jews", and allowed no Jewish blood in his soldiers. What was Jesus????!!!!JEWSIH
Before you call someone a moron, at least learn to spell correctly. KKK was a christian organization, they even burned crosses on people's lawns to "purify the earth" and to serve as a warning. They believed JEsus was a white man and THEY WORSHIPED HIM. The NLFT has forced people in Tripura India to convert to Christianity in the name of JESUS. --- [Satp . org] South Asian Terrorism Portal
It doesn't matter what Hitler felt about Jews...he felt Jesus was ARYAN not Jewish.dumbass
@Propaine187, You got that wrong about the KKK. Albert Pike was a 33rd degree Freemason. He was the one who founded the KKK.
FACT: Freemasons are Luciferians
Your Qur'an doesn't talk about Lucifer because it's from satan. The Bible is the only book that exposes Lucifer as satan. THAT is why they burned the crosses, they were NOT Christians.
"If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay (The God of the Christians) whose deeds prove his cruelty...calumniate him?" -Albert Pike, "Morals & Dogma"
Furthemore, hitler believed in a "master race", and practiced Nordic paganism..all of which are not "Catholic"; and MUCH of his destruction was done to Christians, like the Pols, Serbians, Greeks, Romanians. Jim Jones was an "agnostic", and his "cult" had nothing to do with Christian "ideology". On the other hans; 1.5 million Christian Armenians, 350,000 Pontic Greek Christians, 1/3 of the Assyrian Christians population was WIPED OUT my the muslims turks..continued
@Propaine187, If Hitler was a Christian, then why did he believe that the Germanic peoples were the descendants of the Luciferian Atlanteans? Do you normally take all nonsense in without proper inquiry or are you making things up as long as anyone is willing to argue with you?
Here's VIDEO FOOTAGE that Hitler was into the occult and went to Tibet in search for historical remains of Atlantis:
@Vasilis719 “I have come to set the Earth on fire, and how I wish it were already kindled !...DO YOU THINK I CAME TO BRING PEACE ON EARTH ? NO, I tell you, but division.” (Luke 12: 49-51)
“ Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword...a man's ENEMIES will be the members of his OWN HOUSEHOLD.” (Matthew 10: 34-36)
“If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one (a sword).” (Luke 22:36)
That's foolish. You are making preposterous claims by implying that God needs to "experience" what it is to be human. That's like I make a dvd player, and instead of knowing how a dvd player works by design since I created it, I transform myself into a dvd player as well to "experience" how it feels.
God does NOT humble Himself to His lowly creation. Quote the verses from the Qur'an that says "I will strike off their heads"... sounds like a desperate christian lie on your part.
@Vasilis719 that strike off their heads or something similar effect of that u are taking out of context yes it does say to strike off the heads of the unbelievers while they were in were. If u read the verses before that it talks about a peace treaty being broken by the makkhans which lead to war and during war Allah ( GOD ) says to strike off their heads. Now u tell me which army general says well just throw some flowers at them.
You missed the whole point. While Christ said "love your enemy"..mohammed said things like "I will cast terror in the "infidel", not "I wil cast terror(which is an act of spite, not defense)in the "enemy of my state". While Christianity was spread by the spilled build of un armed martyrs, islam was spread by the sword..as the saudi flag displays. It was a 'military" religion. Christ=humility and sacrifice..moahammed=special exceptions for wives/concubines, and 1/5 spoils of war.
there are books still prinited now with just sections of the quran and not the whole quran. there are plenty of books which contains just few chapters of the quran , some times just chosen verses
To all of u Christians please open ur minds and think and just read the bible is filled with contradictions. If JESUS is god how can god die on the cross how can god eat drink sleep how, God does not need any of those things because he is the almighty. Ur own bible says JESUS was tempted by the devil, how can god be tempted by the devil????? Just think please i would love to hear ur answer on that one any christian out there........
If one accepts the crucifixion, they first accept that god sent himself to suffer and die, so as to change the rules of human damnation that he manifest, himself.
The believer is worshiping that which made their sin filled nature and the need to be redeemed from it.
I think it's really unfair to for Shabby Shabir ("Shabby Shabir" lol. ^_^ it just came to me!) to say point out discrepancies in the gospels and decide that they're irrefutable contradictions but when someone points out that the koran says Jesus wasn't crucified NOR was he killed, isn't a contradiction to the bible which says that Jesus WAS crucified. I understand Ally tells himself that the koran means Jesus didn't die on the cross but even if Jesus was just put on the cross, its contradictory.
James White's spoken Arabic is terrible. However, why does he purposely not allow viewers to post text xomments in his Alpha/Omega video postings?? He wants us to hear him but does not want us to comment. Its unfair to say the least.
James White yeah his sister became a roman catholic and James White showed how Christian he is when his sister Patrica Bonds wanted his support when she went public about his father molesting her! Some brother indeed!
Its sad and worrying that christians loose the debate and still believe they have debated well.
I really want to see a debate between scholars on the origins of the Quran and its preservation. I know it will never happen publicly as there are no non-muslim scholars who even have the credentials never mind the knowledge in this field except what they certify themselves.
It happens in books, but majority so called religous people don't RAED except few who then turn into Muslims or Aethiests
I know where Nabeel Qureshi gets his sources from, if he takes it to the academic arena, they will not bother to listen to him. Even a layman like me can have a debate with him like many other muslim laymen who have some knowledge of this subject
Further Nabeels ilieteracy of Islam is manifested in simple subject matter that Muslims can easily identify.
I don't think this guy was even a Muslim, He might have been but I doubt it.
he gets his source for the uthmanic revision from Bukhari...
just like me, when i look for sources, if i can i quote bukhari, dawoud, muslim, because muslim are more ready to accept hadiths from these... but ibn sa'ad, ibn ishaq, ibn isham, wakidi, al-tabari are much earlier so they are far better sources
you really shouldn't have mentioned that. You are correct in what you said, however hadith has its own science and deals with what is concretly authentic all the way to somewhat authentic.
Look into the science of hadith and then by default you will also see the authenticity of the Quran and the Bible and other scriptures.
but Abdul, the problem with going to the main collection of ahadith (bukhari, muslim, dawoud...) is, that there has been over 200 years of Islamic theology developing before the are written, for example, they don't contain the satanic verses story, this here is evidence bukhari is trying to rewrite history.
only a Muslim will use the isnad method for history, a universally rejected method that no respected historian would ever use.
Very true. Christiaans have caught on, and these debates are a route in every case. Muslims are still relying on Ahmed Deedat videos as convincing evidence.
the whole blood sacrifice thing is so like pagan religions that sacrifice animals or people when they feel their god is mad with them...its just crazy
The idea of sacrafice is nonsense. Years ago they sacraficed for the God(s), now it may be for THE God. Yet the people of today believe their idea of God is true and those of the past who sacraficed for the Gods were wrong and didn't know the truth. How could someone be so sure of their religious beliefs which are so similar to something they dismiss as ancient mythology?
If you don't like blood sacrifice you wont like Mormonism. It has a blood atonement doctrine that would make a Muslim and Jew salivate. And non of these 3 are ready to stop, Polygamy is legal in Israel. (Mormons are chafing to practice their polygamy). And soon the Jew will build a temple and sacrifice a red . Non of this is good news.
This delusion is eroding due to the tranfer of knowledge and reduction of Godly ignorance. It is about time we grew out of this ridiculous superstition that has retarded every positive human endeavor since it's inception.
Everyone has ancestries who either killed or conqured at one point in history. Does that mean we should believe no one? Whenever has the truth been determine by what their ancesters did 1000 of years ago?
I was targeting the Edomite nation also I meant those nations whose sole purpose was to acquire power and want more power and to obtain it they disturb the peace of other nations, but that's a good point we shouldn't believe no one. Of course I would have to go into a heavy discussion in what I mean by that previous statement.
And for you last question, what truth hasn't been determined anytime anyone looks back at past history it gives truth to the plights of today. And the Israelite people I
How about because your allegations are false, to start with ? Today, Islam receives the lowest and dirtiest attacks, and yet the numer of its follwers grows so amazingly fast that it makes it the fastest growing religion. Now, are Muslims forcing and killing to get the job done ?
My standpoints just come from my beliefs and what I have learned and your beliefs comes from what you have learn this could turn to a debatable argument that will never cease because of our beliefs. We can state things as facts as you and I have done, but we can't get into the heads of every individual. Now I myself believe all religion is false, but I can only wait till the great day
You don't believe in religion but do you believe in God? Wouldn't you rather believe God does exist and find out he doesn't instead of believing he doesn't and find out he does?
No trying to be rude, just a question.
If I may ask, what makes you think God doesn't exist? I know we can't see him, but I look at the way the moon is a lamp for the night like a nightlight using the rays from the sun. It's almost like someone designed it for us.
No, I do believe God exist, because man contradicts himself when using the text. He uses it to acquire power and gain control over the masses. And with all these places of worship I would think if all these places were on the straight and narrow path the world would not be in the shape it is in now. But no we are waring over something we cannot even conceive .we need to step back and recognize our place.
I could go in more detail if this seemed to vague. So if you wanna talk just tell me. peace
if information is the quality of a message to shape the mind and the resulted quality is in agreeable to the principle of uniformity then the information is better. The fallacy test is to show who has a better info
It's a powerful info!
It's not an easy task to convince billions of people for many centuries from many backgrounds. if you fail to see the reason behind this then the faulty is in the cognitive power of yours.
I'm not interested to impress you (so far you are not that interesting)
You're making the same misstake as Shabir Ally. Theology is not point here.
The only one who thinks what you are saying is relevant is a muslim (your argument is therefor completly circular) - anyone except a muslim understands why the burden of proof falls on the person defending a 600 years younger source.
I gave you a definition of information, a fallacy test, the reason why it's better (what you asked for) and so far what you gave was a label "Shabir makes mistake, circular etc." and that's about it.
if you want to close the door and yell "everyone makes mistake!"..that's fine with me...
I have shown the faulty of your cognitive capability or much lack of it. Like I said, you are not that interesting!
You may have it... since a child usually won't stop yelling till he got his last words.
You have shown nothing of interest. The only thing you have "shown" is that if the Quran is the word of God then it probably has better information than the Bible. That is theology - not philosophy or anything relating to the field of history.
Give me a reason - that doesn't rest upon the premiss that the Quran is the word of God - for why the Quran contains better historical information than the Bible and you will have won the debate.
We can look at the conclusions of both the Bible & Quran and see which is more accurate when they relate information of past events. For example. The Quran refers to the ruler of Eygpt in Joseph's time as King and Pharaoh in Moses' time, whereas the Bible refers to all rulers of Eygpt as Pharaoh. However in Eygptology the term Pharaoh wasn't used for the ruler of Eygpt untill the 18th Dynasty (1552 1295 BC). Genesis portrays anachoronism based on the Egytological data.
The two terms are somewhat interchangeable. What about the Quran claiming that the ancient egyptians crucified people? The archeological evidence for this - nill.
Even if the 2 terms are almost interchangeable the Quran is still more precise than the Bible on the specific point despite it coming after the Bible. What evidence have you look at to come to the conclusion that the Egyptian did not crucified people?
More precise?..LOL. Let's take a look at what your suggesting.
1.)The koran was written as the claims of a man who said God talked to him..yet when it first happened(by his account), he thought he was being possesses by a demon(jinn). Also, mohammed took back verses that he said were "of the devil". We also know he was epleptic, came in contact with Jews and Christians, gave HIMSELF special privleges, and was suicidal. Does THAT sound reliable?!!LOL. COME ON DUDE..LOL.
What information does the Bible provide apart from the brief short account by four spurious/mysterious authors writing decades after the event of a carpenter living 200years ago? Wow.
Ally is a theologian and not a historian. He doesn't provide any good arguments that the Quran says anything relevant about the crucifiction he only says: "it's ambiguous".
He only argues against the Gospels and does not provide any reason for any nonmuslim to care about what the Quran says. Since the Bible is closer in time - the Bible wins by default even if it is not the word of God.
The Bible also contradicts chronicles which predate the Bible from about 1000 years. These chronicles also contain stories which are today found in the Bible. Using the same logic as to why we should not accept the Quran, we would also have to reject the Bible as we have more earlier records by comparison.
Finally, I would rather have a scripture that is ambigous and has no errors than a book which is detailed and as a result has loads of contradictions.
Besides - you haven't answered my claim - if there are two sources to a historical event and one is almost six hundred years older you need to show that the one that is six hundred years younger has better information than the older one, otherwise you lose by default. This is elementary source criticism.
Wy is Shabir Ally debating John Malkovich? :P
mbksold 2 weeks ago
1.There is a verse in John's gospel wich contradict the entier pauls christianity, about the complete sacrifice lie,
It is averse employed by theologians to the extreme
The Qur'an confirms this verse in the Gospel of John explicitly. What is confirmed - the Koran confirms the truth of the preceding headings
I call this verse
The end of today's Christianity
NidaSalam 4 months ago
2.Jesus refuted all sacrifice Pendant - Jesus died for us??
Here is the verse: John 10:17-18
"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No one taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. “ Have you red?
No one can kill Jesus, because he has received from God commanded
What the Koran says
NidaSalam 4 months ago
3.For this statement in the Quran, the Prophet Muhammed sas for over 1400 years to this day about the many "devout Christians" serious offense: Quran Surah 4:157-158 "That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah" -but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge,
NidaSalam 4 months ago
12.It seemed the only way - they would kill him and he would suffer, but nothing came of this, because God gave Jesus a.s. the might for this.
The chronology is simple
1. Jesus is afraid of the impending
2. Jesus prays
3. Jesus a.s. receives an offer from God that gives power, he can not be killed and to avoid suffering. For God loves him, that he dedicated his life to the sheep they lead and it can therefore not true that Jesus suffers and is killed
GAME OVER
NidaSalam 4 months ago
4. but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed not him-nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
And again Jesus: John 10:17-18 17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18No one taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. "
NidaSalam 4 months ago
5.If Jesus a.s. has received from God the power that he cannot be killed by no one, then the Quran has confirmed exactly the Gospel, as Jesus was not killed with certainty
Actually it was - when Jesus a.s. not dead, it has no benefits for the people suffered and equipped with such a power - it is certainly not a victim!
With this verse, the Christians were the sacrifice lie before an OFF
And as they tried to save himself…again with a lie..they say:
NidaSalam 4 months ago
6."Jesus does not mean, no one can kill him - much more was meant, no one deprive him life, he does do it quite freely ..." With this statement the Christians want to make us to believe, this verse was true and inspired by God, but Jesus a.s. only says that he voluntarily leaves his life.
Now we want to seal the game over for Christians
Voluntarily??
Really?
NidaSalam 4 months ago
7.OK
Lets GO!
Luke 12:49 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed," Wow, how voluntary ...
But no - not enough ?
NidaSalam 4 months ago
8.Mark 14:36 "And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I want, but what thou wilt."
Still not enough - so much for “voluntarily”?
Mark 14:39 "Once more he went away and prayed the same thing."
Not enough?
Ok
All good things are even three, isn’t it dear Christians?
NidaSalam 4 months ago
9.Matthew 27:46
“ About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (Which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?") "
So proof enough
Total contradiction when they say Jesus said so, it would not be torn from your life.
So after all the quotations we see of voluntariness:
NOTHING !
NidaSalam 4 months ago
10.Back to John 10:17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again."
As shown, does not volunteer! But no one can kill him, because
Jesus a.s. says: "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again This commandment have I received of my Father..."
When Christians say that no one could take him his life-he does it voluntarily, they can forget it as I showed with evidence.
NidaSalam 4 months ago
11.So says John 10:17 Clearly .. Jesus a.s. has the power no one can kill him, this power he has received from God the gift of God, it all seemed just so, all was shown us what they thought would kill him and told many contradictory stories.
But in fact, Jesus had a.s. has the power - he could not got killed, he had been not sacrificed, and certainly not suffered!
The Qur'an confirms the Gospel of John, as the Qur'an proclaims, it only confirms the truth of the preceding headings
NidaSalam 4 months ago
What happened at around the 2nd hour 39th minute?
ArginGerigorian 5 months ago
@ArginGerigorian I'll try re uploading the debate.
Nazam44 5 months ago
I find it interesting you put this on your channel, I watched the whole thing and James White's argument is excellently detailed, logically thought out and he demands the same level of criticism on both sides and shows many of Shabir's circular arguments. My fav part is where he pointed out this kind of debate would never be allowed in most Muslim countries. Muslim is the fastest growing FORCED religion, My American Muslim friends forget that from time to time
sonofcohen 6 months ago 8
@sonofcohen who forces anyone to become Muslim? what army forces the thousands of people who accept Islam in America, Europe, Africa, Asia, MIddle East, etc?? the greatest forced religion? self deception is a beautiful thing.
ancientstaffpub 1 month ago 2
@ancientstaffpub I'm sorry if you are not aware of this reality. In places like Africa and the Middle East it is a crime to have any other faith besides the Muslim faith. Christians are kicked out of countries for talking about Jesus, soldiers arrest those who start Christians churches, my father was held captive by Muslims in Africa for talking about Jesus. I have friends right now in Muslim countries who are secret missionaries because they hurt or put in prison for faith.
sonofcohen 1 month ago
@sonofcohen This is totally false and is not helpful in fostering community relations. There are Christians in Africa and in the Middle East such as 10 million Coptic in Egypt. Also the same criticism could also be made against parts of southern America but at the end of day how does all this proof that Jesus died for the sins of God's people when Deuteronomy 12:32 clearly forbid human child sacrifice?
Nazam44 1 month ago
@sonofcohen What has this kind of debate would not be allowed in part's of the Muslim world got any thing to do with, was Christ sacrificed for the sins of people? This is just another red hearing and smoke screen made by James when he can't address the topic. And his consistency point is another smoke screen which he makes when ever he cannot answer the objection. And as a matter of fact these types of debates has taken place in parts of the Muslim world.
Nazam44 1 month ago
Shabir is great speaker!
SAMAND33 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@SAMAND33 shabir's questions are really silly
ONU34 6 months ago
The common term for God is LORD... but the question I was posing is what establishes that this God of the Hebrews is the same as allah ? There appears to be several notable differences between what the Hebrew scriptures writes vs what islam is saying and telling me. Also, Jesus never taught that the Hebrew scriptures were corrupt. Islam says that both the Hebrew/Christian scripture were corrupted. But Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.
shieldsff 7 months ago
the NT was written in Aramaic & Greek; the OT in Hebrew. Yes w/ the exception of Daniel few exceptions of angels delivering inspired text. Also, the accounts of most other prophets like Isiah, Moses, Jeremiah, Micah,etc;do not relate angelic msgs.The NT authors do not claim to have received their msgs. from angels.That Muhammad did not (could not) read the NT is very disturbing- it means he could not have known the complete truth & revelation of the world salvation works God did in Judea
shieldsff 8 months ago
@shieldsff You know,,,we respect all the prophets including Jesus (pbuh), He was one of God Mightiest messenger...If a muslim doesn't respect him that means s/he is not a true muslim.......I really enjoy talking to you...I'm sorry if i have mistakes...keep reading, keep searching,,maybe u'll find something interesting for yourself...nice to talk to you.
ivanxmahya 8 months ago
RE "Son of man"- Clearly, Jesus here is referring to the exalted, eternal figure from the book of Daniel. Also, this was not an isolated incident where the false religious leader accused him of blasphemy...He was similarly charged for healing on the sabbath; he was charged for saying He forgives sins; he was charged for saying to the hypocritical leaders "before Abraham was, I AM".It's impossible to merely consider Jesus a "good man" or a moral teacher- His claims are too fantastic & unlike any
shieldsff 8 months ago
Comment removed
ivanxmahya 8 months ago
@73geneva if Jesus (who you think as god) died for three days, then who ruled the world in that three days...Devil? can you imagine devil ruling the world...? Jesus never claimed himself to be god, or he never said worship me....who gave him that tittle? Paul....he gave him that tittle...and he made the story about how Jesus should died for the sins of humankind..and christian believe in him..that deceiver.
ivanxmahya 8 months ago
God rules as always... - God is eternal and omniscient. Death does not mean end of existence- it means separation
shieldsff 8 months ago
@shieldsff so you believe that god was dead? Your god?? does it mean that your god has an ending...? what a pity god hah... well, my God is much much better then yours... He has no beginning, and no ending (Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. Surah 112)
....we Muslim cannot accept powerless god, who ate, urinate, slept, tired, drank, and so on....sorry :)
ivanxmahya 8 months ago
actually, for humans it is not a matter of what we can accept- the issue is submitting to all mighty God based on what He says is truth..Followers of Jesus know that God is eternal, all able, all capable, infinite. Hebrews & Christians have had the revelation of One & only Lord for far longer than islam. I encourage U to examine your knowledge of God; men are created in His image. Father Abraham worshiped Jesus and Moses spoke to Him. You are deceived if you do not hear all the prophets
shieldsff 8 months ago
@shieldsff I'm sorry my friend,,,but older doesn't mean the right one...and yes we human have the reflection of God's nature but not in a bodily form, more in spiritual form,,God is Merciful, God is Forgiving, and so on, we have that nature also, I agree with that. but as soon as you said that God is look like His creation then we Muslim take exception for that..."there is none like unto Him"...
ivanxmahya 8 months ago
thanks- the NT was written in Aramaic & Greek; the OT in Hebrew. With the exception of Daniel few exceptions of angels delivering inspired text. Also, the accounts of most other prophets like Isiah, Moses, Jeremiah, Micah,etc;do not relate angelic msgs.The NT authors do not claim to have received their msgs. from angels.That Muhammad did not (could not) read the NT is very disturbing- it means he could not have known the complete truth & revelation of the world salvation works God did in Judea
shieldsff 8 months ago
@shieldsff
The account of "most other prophets" did not have angelic messages. So what?
Why would he need to READ the NT and OT. He recieved revelation from God. How is that disturbing. This "complete truth and revelation" was given to him. The OT and NT are corrupted texts. The OT is is a better shape that the NT, which is unashamedly contradictory. The earlies complete manuscript is in GREEK from the 4th century, the time of the Nicene Creed.
daneshjoo2011 8 months ago
Again, you assert that it was given to Him- I am attempting to validate simply the possibility of that. It is you who asserts that the original text was corrupted- the adherents of the original text have not asserted your text is corrupted- therefore some litmus test is required of you. the Nicene Creed was also in the 4th century, still before Islam. If it was corrupted then, why did the Koran written still much later tell muslims to refer to the scriptures if they have any questions
shieldsff 8 months ago
@shieldsff
If you look at textual criticism of the Bible the evidence is overwhelming. The trinity doctrine was ABSOLUTELY NOT something that was fathomable withe Christians (who were Jews) in early Christianity. This idea that "Jesus is god, son of god, dying god, god-man" is an idea that developed over time and certainly was nothing new. Mithras and other pagan gods had very similar stories, and they were OLDER than christianity. Thats why we dont call the NT " the complete truth".
daneshjoo2011 8 months ago
You will note that I posted the Sherma & Gen 1:26 where God is called Elohim (the nouns are not interchangable) - that is a plural so are the Hebrews contradicting? Can we focus first then on the authenticity of the Qu'ranic msg? Were there not also some islamic books under Al bu Khari ( sorry for the spelling)destroyed? In my view, for the Koran to have authority,it must be demonstrated that the source&msg are consistent w/the true revelations& that allah is the same god who gave the original
shieldsff 8 months ago
I dispute that the pagan Mithras idea has any resemblance to the doctrine of Christ. But again,the key issue that needs explanation is how can Islam assess that the original message(s) were corrupted ? Does that mean allah was unable to protect the truth that he gave? How can one be 100% sure that the Koran has not or is not now being also corrupted. I also question the accuracy of the Koran because Muham.,did not read the whole scriptures.What is the proof the angel delivered the truth of God
shieldsff 8 months ago
@shieldsff
Prophet Jesus (as) spoke in aramaic, but the actually NT was written in Greek. No one knows who, when , where wrote any of the books (also for the OT). And there is too much of this to go into, but the alterations between the manuscripts that are available now are extraordinary. Passages were changed, AND THIS IS NOT DISPUTED, to lie in accordance with the developed doctrine of the trinity and that Prophet Jesus (as) was a "god-man". I cant present everything to you on youtube
daneshjoo2011 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
well, Christians are radical monotheists- nearly all of them (along wi/some Jews would strongly disagree)
So, would you define what you mean by "Trinity"; why is it corrupt; what others example(s) would you cite of 'corruption' in the received texts? When was it corrupted ? Jesus did not call the Hebrew scriptures corrupted - were they still pure then. Muhammad told muslims to also read the scriptures
shieldsff 8 months ago
also, if you refer to impressive findings such as the dead sea scrolls, it's clear that your claim that the " OT is in worst shape" is questionable at best. The dead sea scrolls showed amazing consistency with much earlier Jewish & christian texts from the early centuries of church history pre-dating Isalm. But this is a digression: how is it established that Muhamm received true teachings from an angel
shieldsff 8 months ago
@shieldsff
Ill send you PM's to answer these qs when i finish my exams. Oh and i said the NT is in a worst shape, not the OT. Anyway, we can continue this discussion, and i hate the fact i cant write as many characters in these stupid boxes lol!.
daneshjoo2011 8 months ago
A final point I would raise is that the central truth of the original prophets was NOT submission anywhere or that there is a unitary god (for example, both baal & molech were claimed as [names] for god). The central truth is that there is One God and only One True & Living God. It is this God we are commanded to worship.
shieldsff 8 months ago
@shieldsff Yes! Moses! Received the 10 commandments by means of angels. See Galatians 3:19.
Nazam44 8 months ago
@Nazam44-thanks for responding- so R U implying that Moses received all his scriptures from angels? Assuming this is true, how come it's not a specifically, named angel (like Gabrielle who supposedly came to Muhamm.) ? As you cite Moses here, do you believe that this God of Moses is the true God of Creation. Since YOU cite Paul in this instance, are you implying that you accept the other writings & teachings of Paul? Do you accept that Jesus & Paul received their scriptures from angels?
shieldsff 7 months ago
@shieldsff The easiest way to prove a point to a person who believes in the Bible is to make reference to the Bible. This does not mean I believe in the Bible or consider it true in even that portion. It makes no difference whether or not I believes in the Bible passage I cited. It is important to believe what you preach, but remember that I am not preaching the Bible. I am are simply reminding Christians and Jews that if they had read their Bibles carefully they would have to accept Islam. CONT
Nazam44 7 months ago
Comment removed
shieldsff 7 months ago
@shieldsff -CONT To illustrate this point, consider that I quote the in John where Jesus says: “The Father is greater than I.” In order to refute anyone who says he believes the Bible and yet he says that Jesus is equal to the Father. Now I do not call God “Father.” But the Christian cannot turn around and demand that on the strength of the same verse you should now dare to call God “Father.” You will have to remind him that the Bible is a proof against him, not against you. CONT
Nazam44 7 months ago
CONT1- "I quote the in John where Jesus says: “The Father is greater than I.”
Hey, I am pleased to respond to this topic, but what I would hope before doing so is that you will respond first to the issues which I raised so that we might have an orderly exchange. Assuming then that you are correct in your citation of this scripture, is it UR position that Moses received all or portions of his inspired written scriptures from angelic beings ? Which portions ? Can you cite [any other prophet?
shieldsff 7 months ago
@Nazam44-In this instance, I would have to say to you NO; In my opinion, since you cite this text in an effort to advance your argument, you are inconsistent and illogical if you do not accept the full context. Now if you wish to contend that, o.k., shields, you believe this so therefore do you accept this, that might be a reasonable proposition. Also, I find questionable in the extreme UR assertion someone who reads the Bibl would accept Islam- I find no basis for that assertion here
shieldsff 7 months ago
@shieldsff CONT-I was just asking him why his statement about Jesus is opposite to his Bible? He cannot now ask you why your statement about God is different from the Bible because you never claimed to believe in the entire bible. Christianity was not built on the Bible. Christianity began long before the Bible was written and developed independently of the Bible. Some of Christianity's central doctrines are contrary to the Bible; herein lies the problem.
Nazam44 7 months ago
CONT2- "Christianity was not built on the Bible"
that is a speculation,but again U present no evidence for it. There is certainly no such thing as modern christianity w/o Jesus Christ & the teachings of the prophets and the Apostles (the Bible). I would like to know what proof you have that christianity's teachings are contrary to the Bible.But to argue on the basis of Islamic teachings would be flawed. Muhammad never read the scripture so what is the objective standard for his evaluations .
shieldsff 7 months ago
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Note Paul is discussing the relationship of faith to the Law of Mose. Check out v.16- "now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made...." can I ask how was this promise made or communicated to Abraham- was it via the same angel sent to Moses & if not why? Also note vs 13-14:"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us: for it is written cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree; that the blessing of Abraham might come on the gentiles through Jesus Christ".
shieldsff 7 months ago
@shieldsff
Ill continue this discussion in 2 weeks. I have an exam lol! Take care.
daneshjoo2011 8 months ago
@daneshjoo2011 - ok, thanks I am happy to continue then, in the meantime, please note the following points
shieldsff 8 months ago
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The Shema Hebrew שמע ישראל יי אלהנו יי אחד
Common transliteration Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad
English Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God! The Lord is One!
Eloheinu — 'our God', a plural noun
Gen.1:26 And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
shieldsff 8 months ago
thanks my friend, but these statments are simply far too ambiguous and uncertain... Have you read the Torah or the Gospels? Both Moses and Jesus said that there would come false prophets. Therefore, credibility must be established and not taken for granted, How does one prove that muham. received both the 'true message' from the angel, and that the angel was not 'fallen' ? Where is the attestation that allah sent the original scriptures. What other prophets received scriptures from angels?
shieldsff 8 months ago
@shieldsff do you know why pagan use idol (satue, picture, image) to be their object of worshiping,,???it's because of their need to picturize their god, they can't accept to worship something unseen. so they need a figure that they can see, touch, hold, and etc......this is the nature of pagan....if you realize it then you look into your own church and your daily basis then you will understand what i'm trying tp say..
ivanxmahya 8 months ago
"do you know why pagan use idol"
that may be,but that has NOTHING to do with the Christian faith in the Lord God & the redemption of Jesus .Look, I see no value in repeating the same points over & over.Did you listen to the vide closely? Have you read the Bible yourself ? Start with the Gospel of John; read the Torah & Isaiah, Hebrews & Christians not only received revelations long before the advent of Islam more importantly they received the COMPLETE TRUTH.Muham.NEVER read the New Testament
shieldsff 8 months ago
@shieldsff My friend,,,Muhammad (pbuh) was not the founder of Islam...But he is the last prophet of Islam...Our religion is the same as other prophets : Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, John the baptist and Jesus (pbut) which is submitting our will to the one and only God without associating partner to Him...they were Muslim as well as we are..God only sent one message through His Prophets to all human kind "Worship Him alone without associating partner toward Him"...
ivanxmahya 8 months ago
Christians worship the True, Living God only; we do NOT contend He has 'partners'. However, if you are referring to the Godhead, again, I can only recommend that you study the full account of the prophets & the NT. Unfortunately you did not answer any of my questions. Certainly, there is NO proof that ANY of the prophets, nor Jesus nor the apostles were muslim- on the contrary, they appear to strongly repudiate islamic assertions since they contradict the scriptures which are inspired.
shieldsff 8 months ago
@shieldsff
Before i go, this comment is incorrect. The trinity has never been, and is not, monotheistic. And "Musilim" means submitts to the one true God. And again you are coming from a theological position when you claim the NT "was inspired". The historical evidence shows without doubt the the NT was chopped, changed, altered to suit the doctrines of the church, other books were cut completely from the canon etc.
daneshjoo2011 8 months ago
@daneshjoo2011 - ok fine, these are just some of the questions I want to make sure I don't forget. Lastly, yes I think it makes a great deal of importance HOW the msg was received. If a person claims god gave them a msg from plates found in the gound (like the Mormons) this impacts the credibility of the source. You have asserted an angel appeared to Muhamm.- assuming he did, how does one know he told him the truth or that the angel was not fallen ?
shieldsff 8 months ago
well, in fact, you too are 'coming from' a theological position when you assert that the Koran was given by an angel. To establish that, you would have demonstrate, in part, that other true prophets received written scriptures from angels- please explain this. Again, you make serious, but unsupported allegations in my view when it's argued that the text was corrupted when we know Muhamm NEVER read the original scriptures & could in no reasonable sense evaluate them, Jesus said He is the Word
shieldsff 8 months ago
could you pls offer some support or proof from the Hebrew scriptures that the islamic god is the same as the God of the Hebrews and the Christians? There appear to be many differences- the most obvious is that neither the Hebrews nor the Christians call Him allah. Also, Christians claim the revelation of the Godhead. Where is the proof in the Hebrew scriptures that an angel (the same angel) delivered a message to the Hebrew prophets as it is claimed he did to Muhammad. Did Muhammad read the NT?
shieldsff 8 months ago
Also,Mr Ali is incorrect that a judge ( I take it he refers to a human judge ) has the power to 'forgive , i.e. pardon "sin' ( i.e. criminal violations). A judge is subject 2 written laws & directives. In western societies the judge is NOT above the law. If a defendant is brought before a judge having been found guilty of a violation of the law (e.g.,theft,rape, kidnapping, murder, obstruction of justice,intimidation, etc..), unless there are serious extenuating facts judges have NO discretion
shieldsff 8 months ago
haha Shabir Ally turned the books James White used against himself.
A sound victory for Shabir
DrXoz 9 months ago
jesus died for me? sorry thanks but no thanks i don't need your blood, God can forgive me if he so desire. Jesus blood is not necessary. it contradicts God's mercy and love if He tortures and kills His son. That's not love.
glower125 9 months ago
@glower125
Very true. You forget one crucial thing as well. God is All-Mighty, All-Powerful. Created concepts do not apply to Him and he is not BOUND by them. He doesnt NEED to resort to DIE and SUFFER (whats the point) when He is All-Powerful and can forgive in an instant. It is utterly ludricous. It implies that God sees all this sinning, then panics and then says "Oh no i should send my son (oh wait myself...or is it my son..whatever), and die to save them." Allah is beyond what they say.
daneshjoo2011 8 months ago
Shabir is more personal than White; he also is a very gifted speaker. I loved how he was brilliant at making a joke about "telescoping".
However, White's defense was much more strong. 40 words against 4 books containing the anjeel of Jesus in addition to the prophets of the Torah and the later testimonies of Paul etc. in the New Testament holds a lot more claim than 40 words. White made more sense.
jessd6heart 9 months ago
@jessd6heart you are talking through your christian bias. White didn't bring anything new. everything he brought was totally debunked decades ago. he was totally shot out of water and proven to be in the presence of a much stronger and irrefutable sources. Ally's argument are solid and very very strong. 40 words of truths are sufficient to sink a whole theology based on paganism and lies.
glower125 9 months ago
The Bible is a fraud. The first 5 books were written by Moses and even Moses said, that no-one was to add to or take away from these words of God as commanded by Moses. So, the Bible should have ended right there. God was the only "creator" and if he was a God of "love," he would not have created a place of "Eternal Torment." Jesus said, "The Kingdom of God is within you." If God is like the ocean, we are like a single drop of water. We are part of God. God would not destroy part of himself.
reactor43007 10 months ago
James is weak. I mean he should try to refute shabir but he did not refute shabir. rather james basically wants shabir to bring the manuscripts to the debate. jame has weak arguments
gosillygirl 11 months ago
Wow, what a debate. There needs to be more debates between Shabir Ally and Dr. James White. I as a muslim respect Dr. White as he is schorlarly and gives good points some of the times. One thing Christians need to understand is that Muslims never ever say that the Bible is 100% wrong or incorrect. On the other hand, Muslims also do not say it is 100% inerrant. But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6) This is the reason why Muslims differ
Yeppox 1 year ago
@Yeppox so b.c muslims are more rightouess than christians or try to be?
rahatkhan 11 months ago
wow mr james white he is reading from a list that he wrote.
he is trying to act like shabir ally.
shabir ally he does read he only takes notes
medsheikh 1 year ago
hmm.. Shabir Ally gives a new meaning to "Beating around the bush". I thought the host made it clear that they should "get straight to the point". Well how could he, James White threw everything at him including the kitchen sink lol
selious04 1 year ago
VERY SHOCKING ANSWERS TO JAMES WHITE BY TARK EL NIMIR, check it out by goggling Tark El Nimir answering James White
godrevelation 1 year ago
I would ask why anyone in their right mind would follow a religion that touts human sacrifice as a good thing as does christianity ...who would want a god who would sacrifice humans ...the idea seems repugnant to me ...look at the Mayan or Aztecs ...sacrificing a man 'Jesus' was the best idea the great god of the bible could come up with ?...sounds very bronze age to me ..sounds very bronze age barbaric human to me ...just a thought ...
laserwolf130 1 year ago
What happened to the 2nd Rebuttal and Cross Examination???
johnpolanco18 1 year ago
I love James White vs Shabir Ally debates :)
LogosTheos 1 year ago
The real issue is that the holy ghost came down from heaven after Jesus offered his sacrifice in heaven. The spirit is the witness and the proof that those scriptures are true (and not some blind belief that a book is infallible etc.) Jesus' sacrifice was accepted by God. Now have you received what Jesus' sacrifice obtained - the holy spirit baptism? The rest is philosophy. The spirit does not come in the name of anyone except Jesus. All else is something else.
GoingtoJesus 1 year ago
Shabir is dead wrong, and his arguments are notably weak here.
I'm a Christian though and still LOVE this guy!
If i ever met Ally i'd give him a big hug! He seems like a sweet man -
If only more Muslims were more like him....
williamstdog9 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
What one believes and what one can demonstrate historically are usually two different things.
-Robert J. Miller, Bible scholar, (Bible Review, December 1993)
LOL!!! THAT EXPLAINS YOUR BELIEFS IN A NUTSHELL, YOU NUT.
It is said that the last recourse of the Bible apologist is to FALL BACK UPON ALLEGORY. After all, when confronted with the many hundreds of biblical problems, allegory permits one to INTERPRET ANYTHING HOWEVER ONE MIGHT PLEASE.
-Gene Kasmar, Minnesota Atheists
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
"Many modern Biblical archaeologists now believe that the village of Nazareth did not exist at the time of the birth and early life of Jesus. There is simply no evidence for it."
-Alan Albert Snow (The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read)
"It was not until the THIRD CENTURY that Jesus' cross of execution became a common symbol of the Christian faith."
-John Romer, archeologist & Bible scholar (Testament)
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
There are no texts from within the first 20 years what the hell are you talking about. And go research the synoptic Gospel issue. The Gospels aren't even written by their true authors[ or who they are ascribed to!]. The fist bible wasnt even completed until 300+ years AFTER Jesus supposed death.
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Propaine187..PART 3
Talk about not "quoting" accurately..LOL. The first "Gospel" writings were written within 20 years of Jesus death, and added to with the Gospels that further shared from it's Christian tradition. While islam "begins and ends with the word"..Christianity simply documented tradition from it's earliest followers..the Apostles of Jesus. If you look at the writings of Saint Ignacius, you will see a parallel to the oldest writings and tradition of Christianity.
Vasilis719 1 year ago
@Vasilis719 “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me.” (Luke 19:27) “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me.” (Luke 19:27)
“If anyone comes to me and does not HATE his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE .” (Luke 14:26)
PEACEFUL JESUS? LIAR
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
he was the 'god' of the OT too right:
"Anyone who is captured will be RUN THROUGH WITH A SWORD.Their LITTLE CHILDREN WILL BE DASHED TO DEATH RIGHT BEFORE THEIR EYES...their WIVES RAPED by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will SHOOT DOWN THE YOUNG PEOPLE WITH ARROWS. They will have NO MERCY ON HELPLESS BABIES and will show NO COMPASSION for the CHILDREN." [Isaiah 13:15-18]
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Propaine187
NO WONDER so many serial killers and psychopaths quote the bible, its full of murder and mayhem. It permits genocide, rape and murder of children. Ridiculous cult.
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Propaine187 Wow, the same is said about terrorist and Islam.. You have debunked your own religion..
johnpolanco18 1 year ago
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@Vasilis719
Gospels written during the first 20 years of Jesus' death? Where is your proof? You are lying out of your ass. All you are doing is saying what you believe with no documented proof to support your thoughts. Lol. Bring some evidence to the table not what you "think" about the gospels. Here is some food for thought. Christian scholars and historians' thoughts on the bible's authenticity:
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
Some hoped to penetrate the various accounts and to discover the historical Jesus...and that sorting out "authentic" material in the gospels was virtually impossible in the absence of independent evidence."
-Elaine Pagels, Prof of Religion at Princeton University
"We can recreate dimensions of the world in which he lived, but outside of the Christian scriptures, we cannot locate him historically within that world."
-Gerald A. Larue (The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read)
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
"The gospels are so anonymous that their titles, all second-century guesses, are all four wrong."
-Randel McCraw Helms (Author of "Who Wrote the Gospels?")
"Mark himself clearly did not know any eyewitnesses of Jesus."
-Randel McCraw Helms (Who Wrote the Gospels?)
"The question must also be raised as to whether we have the actual words of Jesus in any Gospel."
-Bishop John Shelby Spong
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
MMM LOOK AT THIS:
"All four gospels are anonymous texts. The familiar attributions of the Gospels to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John come from the mid-second century and later and we have no good historical reason to accept these attributions."
-Steve Mason, professor of classics, history and religious studies at York University in Toronto ["Bible Review", Feb. 2000, p. 36]
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Propaine187..PART 4
Furthemore, the "names" of the authors wasn't kept to honor THEM, but to serve the sentiment of Christian theology. Whether "John", or "Matthew", or "Luke" wrote it, isn't what makes it true; the tradition gives it "truth". While Christianity is a religion of witnesses, and communal..islam is a single witness religion; with a self serving "messenger"..no contest..LOLOL. mohammed has nothing other than his claims; he couldn't perfomr ONE miracle, and made errors constantly.
Vasilis719 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
It is foolish of you to claim one man - a prophet no less - has less authority than 40 + ANONYMOUS authors. The "tradition" has nothing to do with truth. The gospels are not EYE WITNESS testimony it is HEARSAY. YOU SYMBOL IS A CROSS THAT WAS USED AS A TORTURE/MURDER MECHANISM SO YOUR SWORD ARGUMENT IS POINTLESS [pun intended].
NATIONAL LIBERATION FRONT OF TRIPURA - FORCES PEOPLE TO ACCEPT JESUS AT GUNPOINT.
KKK - Terrorists. Hitler - CATHOLIC TERRORIST. Jim Jones etc.Peace?LIES
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Propaine187..RESPONSE 1
Now..LET'S SEE.. first of all; islam thinks of Jesus as born of a virgin, performed miracles, and was the Messiah(annointed one "of God"); gee, who but "God" has that "authority"..and the same "man"(mohammed) who denounced Jesus as a "prophet", is the same "man" who couldn't perform ONE miracle, was not born of a virigin, the annointed Son of God. While Jesus was "sinless" by even islam's definition..mohammed was full of sin(pedophilia, murder, selfishness)..continued..
Vasilis719 1 year ago
@Propaine187..RESPONSE 2
mohammed married a 9 year old(by her own words.."Aisha"), spoke in spite("I will strike terror in the infidel; strike off their heads"), and kept 1/5 of "looted"(stolen in war)things for himself. He gave himself special acceptions for numbers of wives, concubines(what religion has "whores" as a religious "atttribute"??!!!!LOLOL), and preached sex with "women whom the right hand posseses"(slave girls). Also, far be it from a muslims to speak about "force"..continued
Vasilis719 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
I've answered all these things already in a message to you once before yet you refuse to listen to reason. You are a simple minded Christian fool.
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Propaine187..RESPONSE 3
You are BEYOND a moron..LOLOL. The "Cross" is a "symbol" of "torture", theirfore "sacrficie"; not a symbol to go "torture" other people, like "swords" in islam..LOLOLOL. Go grow a brain..LOLOLOL. No one is "forced" to "become" Christian at gunpoint..LOLOLOL. the KKK don't even accept the Bible as it is; and claim Jesus was "aryan"..LOLOL. Not exactly a good defense for islam..hilter hasted "Jews", and allowed no Jewish blood in his soldiers. What was Jesus????!!!!JEWSIH
Vasilis719 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
Before you call someone a moron, at least learn to spell correctly. KKK was a christian organization, they even burned crosses on people's lawns to "purify the earth" and to serve as a warning. They believed JEsus was a white man and THEY WORSHIPED HIM. The NLFT has forced people in Tripura India to convert to Christianity in the name of JESUS. --- [Satp . org] South Asian Terrorism Portal
It doesn't matter what Hitler felt about Jews...he felt Jesus was ARYAN not Jewish.dumbass
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Propaine187, You got that wrong about the KKK. Albert Pike was a 33rd degree Freemason. He was the one who founded the KKK.
FACT: Freemasons are Luciferians
Your Qur'an doesn't talk about Lucifer because it's from satan. The Bible is the only book that exposes Lucifer as satan. THAT is why they burned the crosses, they were NOT Christians.
"If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay (The God of the Christians) whose deeds prove his cruelty...calumniate him?" -Albert Pike, "Morals & Dogma"
selious04 1 year ago
@Propaine187..RESPONSE 4
Furthemore, hitler believed in a "master race", and practiced Nordic paganism..all of which are not "Catholic"; and MUCH of his destruction was done to Christians, like the Pols, Serbians, Greeks, Romanians. Jim Jones was an "agnostic", and his "cult" had nothing to do with Christian "ideology". On the other hans; 1.5 million Christian Armenians, 350,000 Pontic Greek Christians, 1/3 of the Assyrian Christians population was WIPED OUT my the muslims turks..continued
Vasilis719 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
Jim Jones belonged to Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.
Hitler was a CHRISTIAN he even ADMITTED TO BEING ONE.
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Propaine187, If Hitler was a Christian, then why did he believe that the Germanic peoples were the descendants of the Luciferian Atlanteans? Do you normally take all nonsense in without proper inquiry or are you making things up as long as anyone is willing to argue with you?
Here's VIDEO FOOTAGE that Hitler was into the occult and went to Tibet in search for historical remains of Atlantis:
"Nazis: The Occult Conspiracy Part 1 - 1:5"
watch?v=Ia8E20gFchQ&feature=related
selious04 1 year ago
@Vasilis719 “I have come to set the Earth on fire, and how I wish it were already kindled !...DO YOU THINK I CAME TO BRING PEACE ON EARTH ? NO, I tell you, but division.” (Luke 12: 49-51)
“ Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword...a man's ENEMIES will be the members of his OWN HOUSEHOLD.” (Matthew 10: 34-36)
“If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one (a sword).” (Luke 22:36)
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
That's not Muhammad that is God's Word...
What do you mean how did God speak to Muhammad...what are you talking about. I don't get what you're trying to say. How did God speak to any prophet?
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
That's foolish. You are making preposterous claims by implying that God needs to "experience" what it is to be human. That's like I make a dvd player, and instead of knowing how a dvd player works by design since I created it, I transform myself into a dvd player as well to "experience" how it feels.
God does NOT humble Himself to His lowly creation. Quote the verses from the Qur'an that says "I will strike off their heads"... sounds like a desperate christian lie on your part.
Propaine187 1 year ago
@Vasilis719 that strike off their heads or something similar effect of that u are taking out of context yes it does say to strike off the heads of the unbelievers while they were in were. If u read the verses before that it talks about a peace treaty being broken by the makkhans which lead to war and during war Allah ( GOD ) says to strike off their heads. Now u tell me which army general says well just throw some flowers at them.
moneedmomoney 1 year ago
@moneedmomoney
You missed the whole point. While Christ said "love your enemy"..mohammed said things like "I will cast terror in the "infidel", not "I wil cast terror(which is an act of spite, not defense)in the "enemy of my state". While Christianity was spread by the spilled build of un armed martyrs, islam was spread by the sword..as the saudi flag displays. It was a 'military" religion. Christ=humility and sacrifice..moahammed=special exceptions for wives/concubines, and 1/5 spoils of war.
Vasilis719 1 year ago
@Vasilis719
Why are you making statements without properly quoting. No one will believe what you say if you dont show the source quote.
Propaine187 1 year ago
there are books still prinited now with just sections of the quran and not the whole quran. there are plenty of books which contains just few chapters of the quran , some times just chosen verses
ogilby5 1 year ago
To all of u Christians please open ur minds and think and just read the bible is filled with contradictions. If JESUS is god how can god die on the cross how can god eat drink sleep how, God does not need any of those things because he is the almighty. Ur own bible says JESUS was tempted by the devil, how can god be tempted by the devil????? Just think please i would love to hear ur answer on that one any christian out there........
TelaAces 1 year ago
Which question would you like answered first. Feel free to message me so we are not restricted to character limits.
God Bless
PerspectiveReformed 1 year ago
that's some of the worst arabic i have ever heard from james white. sounds like lil wayne rapping shakespear.
kidcanman 1 year ago
If one accepts the crucifixion, they first accept that god sent himself to suffer and die, so as to change the rules of human damnation that he manifest, himself.
The believer is worshiping that which made their sin filled nature and the need to be redeemed from it.
Omniscience, is therefore a Sadist.
And that is not holy.
THE1FuzzyGoddess 1 year ago
How can Jesus be responsible and sacrifice himself for the sins I commit if Jesus is God himself? It contradicts itself.
slerz1 2 years ago
Jesus crucifixion is a historical fact. To deny it is ridiculous. If it did not happen then Jesus is a lier!
ThePtno1 2 years ago
I think it's really unfair to for Shabby Shabir ("Shabby Shabir" lol. ^_^ it just came to me!) to say point out discrepancies in the gospels and decide that they're irrefutable contradictions but when someone points out that the koran says Jesus wasn't crucified NOR was he killed, isn't a contradiction to the bible which says that Jesus WAS crucified. I understand Ally tells himself that the koran means Jesus didn't die on the cross but even if Jesus was just put on the cross, its contradictory.
mrnewswoman 2 years ago
James White's spoken Arabic is terrible. However, why does he purposely not allow viewers to post text xomments in his Alpha/Omega video postings?? He wants us to hear him but does not want us to comment. Its unfair to say the least.
themercyofourcreator 2 years ago
He's scared of being refuted. He's scared of us posting sources which refute what he says. That's the true, deep rooted reason why.
He knows his understanding of Islam is shaky because he's a beginner too.
oombuddah 2 years ago
@themercyofourcreator : I have asked James White that same question, and apparantly he thinks anyone who disagrees with him is some kinda troll.
LothairOfLorraine 1 year ago
James White yeah his sister became a roman catholic and James White showed how Christian he is when his sister Patrica Bonds wanted his support when she went public about his father molesting her! Some brother indeed!
thegrandverbalizer19 2 years ago
i wish the debate would of stayed on topic,
galatians4v30 2 years ago
would "have" (not "of") ;)
johnmair 2 years ago
Its sad and worrying that christians loose the debate and still believe they have debated well.
I really want to see a debate between scholars on the origins of the Quran and its preservation. I know it will never happen publicly as there are no non-muslim scholars who even have the credentials never mind the knowledge in this field except what they certify themselves.
It happens in books, but majority so called religous people don't RAED except few who then turn into Muslims or Aethiests
abuladula 2 years ago
you can watch nabeel qureshi vs basam zawadi
is the koran perfectly preserved....
(it was a boring debate but)
galatians4v30 2 years ago
I know where Nabeel Qureshi gets his sources from, if he takes it to the academic arena, they will not bother to listen to him. Even a layman like me can have a debate with him like many other muslim laymen who have some knowledge of this subject
Further Nabeels ilieteracy of Islam is manifested in simple subject matter that Muslims can easily identify.
I don't think this guy was even a Muslim, He might have been but I doubt it.
abuladula 2 years ago
he gets his source for the uthmanic revision from Bukhari...
just like me, when i look for sources, if i can i quote bukhari, dawoud, muslim, because muslim are more ready to accept hadiths from these... but ibn sa'ad, ibn ishaq, ibn isham, wakidi, al-tabari are much earlier so they are far better sources
galatians4v30 2 years ago
you really shouldn't have mentioned that. You are correct in what you said, however hadith has its own science and deals with what is concretly authentic all the way to somewhat authentic.
Look into the science of hadith and then by default you will also see the authenticity of the Quran and the Bible and other scriptures.
abuladula 2 years ago
but Abdul, the problem with going to the main collection of ahadith (bukhari, muslim, dawoud...) is, that there has been over 200 years of Islamic theology developing before the are written, for example, they don't contain the satanic verses story, this here is evidence bukhari is trying to rewrite history.
only a Muslim will use the isnad method for history, a universally rejected method that no respected historian would ever use.
galatians4v30 2 years ago
What was the point in shabir Ally coming to debate. Well done James White, thank God for this man!!
ThePtno1 2 years ago
muslims are doing terribly in debates nowadays
dilawer321 2 years ago
Very true. Christiaans have caught on, and these debates are a route in every case. Muslims are still relying on Ahmed Deedat videos as convincing evidence.
LothairOfLorraine 2 years ago
lol check out dr zakir naik and his son even. check out br imran. even young sami zataari.
pillgrimz 1 year ago
the whole blood sacrifice thing is so like pagan religions that sacrifice animals or people when they feel their god is mad with them...its just crazy
hassan691987 2 years ago
The idea of sacrafice is nonsense. Years ago they sacraficed for the God(s), now it may be for THE God. Yet the people of today believe their idea of God is true and those of the past who sacraficed for the Gods were wrong and didn't know the truth. How could someone be so sure of their religious beliefs which are so similar to something they dismiss as ancient mythology?
Back2BackJack 2 years ago
If you don't like blood sacrifice you wont like Mormonism. It has a blood atonement doctrine that would make a Muslim and Jew salivate. And non of these 3 are ready to stop, Polygamy is legal in Israel. (Mormons are chafing to practice their polygamy). And soon the Jew will build a temple and sacrifice a red . Non of this is good news.
IExposeMormonism 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Christianity is nearing an end.
This delusion is eroding due to the tranfer of knowledge and reduction of Godly ignorance. It is about time we grew out of this ridiculous superstition that has retarded every positive human endeavor since it's inception.
I for one say GOOD RIDDANCE!
judoyodan 2 years ago
putting everything aside. Why should I or anyone believe in a belief who's peoples ancestry is based off of killing and conquering.
inferno6y 2 years ago
Everyone has ancestries who either killed or conqured at one point in history. Does that mean we should believe no one? Whenever has the truth been determine by what their ancesters did 1000 of years ago?
Nazam44 2 years ago
I was targeting the Edomite nation also I meant those nations whose sole purpose was to acquire power and want more power and to obtain it they disturb the peace of other nations, but that's a good point we shouldn't believe no one. Of course I would have to go into a heavy discussion in what I mean by that previous statement.
And for you last question, what truth hasn't been determined anytime anyone looks back at past history it gives truth to the plights of today. And the Israelite people I
inferno6y 2 years ago
would say is a good example of a nation who's priority wasn't killing and conquering. If you believe in the books of old
inferno6y 2 years ago
@Nazam44
Is this Nazam from Facebook? This is Joseph, thanks for putting up this debate, it was a great one :)
PerspectiveReformed 1 year ago
@Nazam44 wow mr james white he is reading from a list that he wrote.
he is trying to act like shabir ally.
shabir ally he does not read from a list. he only takes notes
medsheikh 1 year ago
How about because your allegations are false, to start with ? Today, Islam receives the lowest and dirtiest attacks, and yet the numer of its follwers grows so amazingly fast that it makes it the fastest growing religion. Now, are Muslims forcing and killing to get the job done ?
Pistolero24 2 years ago
My standpoints just come from my beliefs and what I have learned and your beliefs comes from what you have learn this could turn to a debatable argument that will never cease because of our beliefs. We can state things as facts as you and I have done, but we can't get into the heads of every individual. Now I myself believe all religion is false, but I can only wait till the great day
inferno6y 2 years ago
inferno6y"
You don't believe in religion but do you believe in God? Wouldn't you rather believe God does exist and find out he doesn't instead of believing he doesn't and find out he does?
No trying to be rude, just a question.
If I may ask, what makes you think God doesn't exist? I know we can't see him, but I look at the way the moon is a lamp for the night like a nightlight using the rays from the sun. It's almost like someone designed it for us.
Hope to hear back from you.
Peace
jdnmlm 2 years ago
No, I do believe God exist, because man contradicts himself when using the text. He uses it to acquire power and gain control over the masses. And with all these places of worship I would think if all these places were on the straight and narrow path the world would not be in the shape it is in now. But no we are waring over something we cannot even conceive .we need to step back and recognize our place.
I could go in more detail if this seemed to vague. So if you wanna talk just tell me. peace
inferno6y 2 years ago
if information is the quality of a message to shape the mind and the resulted quality is in agreeable to the principle of uniformity then the information is better. The fallacy test is to show who has a better info
It's a powerful info!
It's not an easy task to convince billions of people for many centuries from many backgrounds. if you fail to see the reason behind this then the faulty is in the cognitive power of yours.
I'm not interested to impress you (so far you are not that interesting)
ReflectedNoor 3 years ago
You're making the same misstake as Shabir Ally. Theology is not point here.
The only one who thinks what you are saying is relevant is a muslim (your argument is therefor completly circular) - anyone except a muslim understands why the burden of proof falls on the person defending a 600 years younger source.
Qohelet888 3 years ago
I gave you a definition of information, a fallacy test, the reason why it's better (what you asked for) and so far what you gave was a label "Shabir makes mistake, circular etc." and that's about it.
if you want to close the door and yell "everyone makes mistake!"..that's fine with me...
I have shown the faulty of your cognitive capability or much lack of it. Like I said, you are not that interesting!
You may have it... since a child usually won't stop yelling till he got his last words.
ReflectedNoor 3 years ago
You have shown nothing of interest. The only thing you have "shown" is that if the Quran is the word of God then it probably has better information than the Bible. That is theology - not philosophy or anything relating to the field of history.
Give me a reason - that doesn't rest upon the premiss that the Quran is the word of God - for why the Quran contains better historical information than the Bible and you will have won the debate.
Qohelet888 3 years ago
We can look at the conclusions of both the Bible & Quran and see which is more accurate when they relate information of past events. For example. The Quran refers to the ruler of Eygpt in Joseph's time as King and Pharaoh in Moses' time, whereas the Bible refers to all rulers of Eygpt as Pharaoh. However in Eygptology the term Pharaoh wasn't used for the ruler of Eygpt untill the 18th Dynasty (1552 1295 BC). Genesis portrays anachoronism based on the Egytological data.
Nazam44 3 years ago
The two terms are somewhat interchangeable. What about the Quran claiming that the ancient egyptians crucified people? The archeological evidence for this - nill.
Qohelet888 3 years ago
Even if the 2 terms are almost interchangeable the Quran is still more precise than the Bible on the specific point despite it coming after the Bible. What evidence have you look at to come to the conclusion that the Egyptian did not crucified people?
Nazam44 3 years ago
@Qohelet888..PART 1
More precise?..LOL. Let's take a look at what your suggesting.
1.)The koran was written as the claims of a man who said God talked to him..yet when it first happened(by his account), he thought he was being possesses by a demon(jinn). Also, mohammed took back verses that he said were "of the devil". We also know he was epleptic, came in contact with Jews and Christians, gave HIMSELF special privleges, and was suicidal. Does THAT sound reliable?!!LOL. COME ON DUDE..LOL.
Vasilis719 1 year ago
Who is Dhul-Qarnayn in the Quran (sura 18: 83-101)?
"Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends."
The pagan Alexander the Great?
The Zurvanist (dualist) Cyrus the great?
Pagan Kings of Yemen?
rhomas913 2 years ago
Good question...one that I still don't know the answer to.
Pistolero24 2 years ago
Alexander the great, who discovered the sun goes down into a murky pool of water
galatians4v30 2 years ago
What information does the Bible provide apart from the brief short account by four spurious/mysterious authors writing decades after the event of a carpenter living 200years ago? Wow.
mustafagtgt 3 years ago
Ally is a theologian and not a historian. He doesn't provide any good arguments that the Quran says anything relevant about the crucifiction he only says: "it's ambiguous".
He only argues against the Gospels and does not provide any reason for any nonmuslim to care about what the Quran says. Since the Bible is closer in time - the Bible wins by default even if it is not the word of God.
Qohelet888 3 years ago
To a historian the Bible is the only thing his got however the Bible is incredibly inconsistent and contradictory. Time will tell
mustafagtgt 3 years ago
The Bible also contradicts chronicles which predate the Bible from about 1000 years. These chronicles also contain stories which are today found in the Bible. Using the same logic as to why we should not accept the Quran, we would also have to reject the Bible as we have more earlier records by comparison.
Finally, I would rather have a scripture that is ambigous and has no errors than a book which is detailed and as a result has loads of contradictions.
Nazam44 3 years ago
Huh? What chronicles? Be specific!
Besides - you haven't answered my claim - if there are two sources to a historical event and one is almost six hundred years older you need to show that the one that is six hundred years younger has better information than the older one, otherwise you lose by default. This is elementary source criticism.
Qohelet888 3 years ago