Skeletal (Bone) Support in Rifle Shooting and Photography

[Elementlmage]

Service rifle competition? I didn't know M16A2/4s came with 20" match grade stainless steel barrels? I'm joinin' the Army and gettin' me one of those! :P

All joking aside, I've been wondering what the rules are on what qualifies as a "service rifle" at CMP competitions? (I realize I can probably just look this up on the CMP site...)

[HatefulDesigns]

i keep trying and trying i can't seem to improve my standing position i don't see any patterns when i aim i just wobble all over the place, i can't keep it stable :/ i can shoot prone and kneeling just fine but standing..

[ocabj]

@HatefulDesigns No can hold a rifle perfectly still in standing. Trust me. Go talk to the big name High Power shooters (e.g. David Tubb, Sherri Gallagher). There's wobble. But if you practice a cadence and how you bring the front sight onto target, you will be able to break the shot at the correct time when the front sight is where it should be for a 10-ring shot. Dry fire a lot. Put a black dot on the wall and practice standing while shooting at that black dot.

[ocabj]

@HatefulDesigns As you dry fire practice at home, you should mount the rifle, acquire sight picture, approach the dot, and when you think it's on, break shot and call the shot. Dismount the rifle. Rest for a few seconds. Repeat. Never try to hold too long for the perfect shot. If for some reason you mount the rifle and get sight picture, but can't break a shot because the front sight won't go into the target where it needs to go, then dismount. Rest. Remount.

[HatefulDesigns]

@ocabj i can't obtain a pattern even after the rest, a lot of sgt's tell me about "if you learn the pattern, it should be all downhill from there" but it just goes all around the place, i rest and remounted several times to attempt one target but like..the sight's refuse to go where it needs to go even after breaks or what not.. maybe its the weight of the rifle or im not standing correctly =\ i just can't figure it out.

[ocabj]

@HatefulDesigns It sounds like your natural point of aim in standing needs to be solved, first. You should be able to hold a rifle such that there is little muscle used to control the rifle, and where the front sight floats on the target black. Start off with finding the support hand position that works for you to keep the boreline fairly level to target. Then start working on feet positioning to keep the rifle in line to the target and to fine tune rifle leveling to the target.

[sithlordsoup]

your like a ripped version of eric koston

[splatspam]

Thanks for the input, I'm looking at putting a weight system together in such a way that it will be easily moved between riffles w/o making it look like someone stuck tire weights to it :-) Have you seen or heard of a system like this already manufactured ?

[ocabj]

@splatspam Unfortunately, no. Rear weights are pretty much dependent on the form factor of the rifle. All the 'Match' High Power rifles designed specifically for High Power are designed specifically with a weight system, so things get proprietary.

[robisnotananagram]

Thanks for this video, all the guys who work at my local range have been coaching me to shoot like a SWAT officer in a movie. After copying your stance I improved my score from my previous best of 59/100 to an 86/100 on the 25 yard bullseye target I use.

[ocabj]

@robisnotananagram You're welcome. Obviously, this style of hold doesn't lend itself for an active engagement. But it is easily the most stable (which translates to accuracy) way to hold for the standing position.

[DagaYute]

Great video sir! I was looking to improve my firing from standing technique - this was very helpful!

[splatspam]

much appreciated, I intend on trying this style out later in the week. Is there any suggestion for muzzle heavy weapons example being suppressed or forward optics for standing stability.

[ocabj]

@splatspam Muzzle heavy firearms will simply feel more heavy on the forward end and may require you control the rifle with the pistol grip. This isn't ideal since exerting excess force with the grip hand will affect trigger pull. With Service Rifles and heavy barrels, we counter the front weight by putting in lead weight(s) in the buttstock to balance out the rifle. Though, this isn't something you would do with a duty gun.

[bthemedia]

a fairly short (14 minute) demonstration =)

[TheWhmaxwell]

Excellent video... thanks man!

[e46dxyan]

Thanks ocabj!  I practice this position @ 25yrds, I hit all dead center shoots with tight groupings.

[blckrsterling]

i just don't see how so much awkwardness standing can be proven.. just a crazy stance to me i believe 75% weight should be forward over left foot if right handed

[1john1992]

He called it a gun...

[FrostyDevilx]

It's not a gun, it's a weapon.

[johnpatrick818]

@FrostyDevilx It's a gun. Use dictates whether something is a weapon, not some magical property inherent to otherwise inanimate objects. A firearm, a bow, an axe, a knife, a baseball bat, a boxcutter, pen/pencil, etc. can all be weapons. Or, they can be tools of recreation and/or utility.

[FrostyDevilx]

@johnpatrick818 Don't be ignorant. What you said is true, a gun is the generalized name. But in this case, when talking about how to properly fire a gun, both safely and accurately, the proper name would be a weapon. Regardless if you're shooting a target or a person, in this usage of the gun, it's a weapon. If you still disagree, I'm pretty sure we can both agree to disagree that it's a rifle.

[johnpatrick818]

@FrostyDevilx A firearm used exclusively to punch holes in paper is no more a "weapon" than a track&field javelin or target bow. It is a sporting device. "Weapon" as it applies to nouns is a ROLE: it describes the particular USE of an object (i.e. against people) rather than some inherent quality of the object itself. Usage of "weapon" in association with sporting firearms is liberal hoplophobic horseshit. Stick to your video games frostydevil.

[FrostyDevilx]

@johnpatrick818 Get over yourself and rid your mind of your liberal point of views. A gun, as you may call it, is inside and out a weapon. I don't care how the hell you're using it, you can put a fucking dildo on it and shove it up your ass and it's still a weapon. What was the "gun" originally made for, to shoot targets? No, it was made to give us humans a mean to kill other humans. Use the weapon for anything you like, it makes to difference that the whole system was made to kill you.

[johnpatrick818]

@FrostyDevilx What were bows made for? Javelins? Knives? What was the first use of a sharp stone in the hands of early hominids? Under your criteria athletes and housewives the world over are wielding deadly weapons. How is original intent-of-design relevant? The 911 hijackers used BOX CUTTERS to turn JUMBO JETS into GUIDED BOMBS. Were they NOT weapons by virtue of intent-of-design? Repetition sans justification does not make you right, just persistently stupid. Go back to your games hoplophobe.

[FrostyDevilx]

@johnpatrick818 Clearly someone's ignorant. I don't waste time arguing with close minded, video game addict, liberal, kids who only believe what the liberal government and the news media tell them. Go back to Washington with your "gun" and see how kindly the government treats you. Go back to your FPS' at your communist, wine-sipping, dick-suck parents house and live your quiet, shut in life. Better yet, join the Marines, and learn the difference between a gun and a weapon, there is none. Bitch.

[johnpatrick818]

@FrostyDevilx Again: "Repetition sans justification does not make you right, just persistently stupid." Nor does calling me names somehow illustrate your point. Further, its laughable that YOU would mock ME for being both liberal and a gamer when: (1) you are a hoplophobe (2) your uploads are all video game related.

....Oh poop, did I just get trolled?

[ooLJCoo]

@FrostyDevilx It's a weapon in the wrong hands . .

[pittsky]

@bloodstone256

Its easy for a national match AR15 to weigh that much.

Educate yourself before attacking others who know more than you.

[steveboomhour]

do you have a vid on how to shoot from sitting and kneeling?

Canadian Shooter

[ocabj]

@bloodstone256 Yes, it is an Empty Chamber Indicator. Actually required for High Power competition (both NRA and CMP rulebooks), so I usually have one in the gun.

[ocabj]

@bloodstone256 No, confirmed on a calibrated shipping scale. There's a lead weight in the buttstock and a lead weight in the lower half the hand guard. Both from Ray-Vin (now retired). I believe Ray-Vin's rear weight is 4 lbs and the front weight is 2.5lbs.

[jetfuel545]

Thank you for making this very informative video. knowledge and practice is the key to success. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[hipwr223]

I think your position looks very good. I do however agree that with the AR platform I find that my right elbow needs to be down simply because keeping it up engages muscles in my right arm that can influence the shot. I do remember in the M14 days though that the right elbow had to be held high to keep from influencing the rifle during the shot process. For Highpower rifle the only thing that matters is your score. If it works then it is good.

[garym5]

Look what the arm has done to you.. Braindead voice..one tone!

[pittsky]

Who stopped watching when the camera came out?

[Ruggles26]

What is the block underneath your carry handle?

[ocabj]

@Ruggles26 Case deflector. Causes the ejected brass to fall in a controlled area, typically down and a couple feet away from my 3 or 4 o'clock position.

[willblackb4]

My "badge" is nine years as an Army sniper. Dropping the elbow down to your side relieves stress on the firing arm.

[willblackb4]

For the love of God, put your right fucking elbow down. You had it sticking out to the side like an untrained Hollywood dipshit, yet you tucked it down when you held the camera. No wonder you think shooting a six inch target at 200m is a big deal. Drop the elbow. Shit like that is the reason I spend so much time coaching away the bad habits of "competition shooters".

[ocabj]

@willblackb4 When shooting unsupported standing in High Power, don't force the elbow down. It will directly affect trigger pull. Particularly with the M1 and M14 platforms. Of course, there are differences between High Power Rifle and other competition disciplines and real life scenarios. Thanks for your insightful feedback. I welcome your constructive criticisms. Perhaps we can meet on the range and you can give me pointers.

[jmdavis45]

@ocabj Great videos, great shooting and an amazingly kind and response to @willbackb4 comments. It's obvious that you apply your shooting discipline to other aspects of your life and that is a rare and valuable trait.

[opmike343]

@willblackb4

I seriously hope that you aren't "coaching" anyone in real life. While they both might utilize AR pattern rifles, High Power target shooting requires a different skill-set than tactical shooting. If you'd take a second to stifle that reflexive rage of yours, you would have realized this. Tucking the rifle in, dropping the arm, the forward lean, and squaring up the target is the most effective "tactical" means of putting rounds on target. High power comp is simply different.

[opmike343]

@willblackb4

Take a look at Olympic shooters, for example. Are they "Hollywood Dipshits" because they are utilizing the best technique for their sport? When the goal is simply accuracy with no chance of your targets shooting back, certain stances dominate for a reason, they work. If this was a video of some random dude who was wanting to use an AR for defensive purposes, then I would agree with you. But this isn't. Quite simply, your comments are not relevant to the topic at hand.

[Caucasusdream]

This is close to a typical European standing target shooting stance. Check out any biathlon competition. Most target shooters in the traditional rifle shooting sports use this position.

Biathlon

youtube.com/watch?v=8g01Ge_8PQ­U

[danebrewer10]

hmm, to better the stance (in rifle shooting at least), I preferr to stick my left hip out and rest my elbow more of less directly on it, it looks camp, but it really does work!

[Sturmmann]

@danebrewer10

yep sure does, especially if you got a glove and shooting jacket to go with it, it can be rock steady

[danebrewer10]

@Sturmmann for sure, I have shot with a glove and jacket smallbore prone quite a while ago, I think I was 12 or something like that, amazing how steady you can get, how does the jacket help in standing though? from my experience, the glove and jacket just make having the sling bearable and extend the ammount of time you have before your hand goes blue :)

[Sturmmann]

@danebrewer10

The shooting jacket generally stiffens the arms and upper chest area. Im confident you can shoot out to a 1,000yds in the sitting with a jacket on.

You arent allowed a sling in the high power standing, so we make due and it honestly isnt a disadvantage at all after you find your own comfortable position.

[danebrewer10]

hmm, to better the stance (in rifle shooting at least), I preferr to stick my left hip out and rest my elbow more of less directly on it, it looks camp, but it really does work!

[joeshmoe12301230]

hey man, all youre videos are well made and very informative. im a long range varmint shooter but im wanting to get into high power stuff.

i just had a couple questions. who makes the shooting glove that you use on your support hand?

and where is a good source to find a shooting coat. im trying to get decent equipment, but not break the bank. im a young guy with a single income, a wife and three youngsters.

I get a lot of stuff from sinclair's, but i dont think they have the coats.

[ocabj]

@joeshmoe12301230 Creedmoor Sports. Google them. First search result

I use an open finger glove for sitting and prone. I use a standard shop glove (e.g. one you get from any home improvement store) with a shooting mitt over it for standing/offhand.

[Baccillus99]

18.5 Pounds!!! Damn that's heavy AR!!! Weighs as much as my precision rifle.

[joeshmoe12301230]

@Baccillus99 yeah that's what i thought at first. but i believe that they put weights in the rear so that they aren't front end heavy. balance would be more important than weight especially since you use skeletal support...not muscles.

right ocabj?

[ocabj]

@joeshmoe12301230 True. Weights are added to the back end to make it more balanced. But I prefer a heavier gun for more overall stability (less sway) in standing. A heavier gun also helps in rapid fire. Granted 223 doesn't recoil much at all, but when you're trying to shoot a tight group at 300 yards, 10 rounds in 70 secs, you want the gun to recoil as little as possible for quick sight reset onto target.

[Rulas41]

i learned so much watching this, i have been wavering like a leaf in the wind when i have been shooting this is going to improve my aim

[jft158]

This is my "rifle" this is my "gun"...nice video

[dirx74]

Thank you for creating this video! Its very helpful.

[moto12acer]

cool video. my friend linked me. it makes sense. after a full day of shooting my arms get super tired too. i found that when i need a really steady shot, (i dont have IS) i hold the end of the bottom sunshade cut outs. i press the left cut out with my thumb, and right cut out with pointer finger and grip the lens. the support will be body of the cam and end of the lens rather than body/tripod collar. i also press the cam into my face to keep it more steady instead of trying to hold up the lens.

[ttannerf]

Great video. Thank you for sharing with us!

[rambone81]

Awesome video man. This is a great bit of information for me as I do a lot of shooting with some heavier lenses. This should make the end of my day much better. Thanks again.

Anytime you want to give more tips about this stuff, please do!

[ocabj]

@rambone81 Thanks. Not sure how many more tips I can bring to the table as far as photography since I still think I'm 'new' to it. At least compared to my firearms/shooting experience. But whenever I get an idea for an instructional video and get motivated to create it, I make the effort to go through with it.

[rtn1911]

Great demonstration. Thanks for putting this up.