Jazz Guitar Lesson 7: The Melodic Minor Myth

[arseniyonline1234555]

piano players are a bad example, if anyone players who play one note at a time e.g. brass players may be confused when asked about chords. piano players, no matter what genre will know their chords

[jwallguitar]

very helpful ! Thanks!

[geoffstockton]

@jwallguitar Glad to help!

[Albigatnz]

hahaha SO those classical dudes done that to improve their II-V-I riffs hahaha!

[christophergradwohl]

Geoff, my teacher taught me this too! But when he taught me this i kinda just rolled my eyes and never practiced the melodic minor scale like that. Thanks for clarifying that. Don't listen to these classical loons, your lessons kick ass and are very much appreciated.

[linkopinggulu]

As for you comment regarding the lack of chord figures in classical notation, it is best to leave it as is. You have modulations, pivot chords, two note cords that can go either way etc. It would be a mess trying to write the chords to standard notation and in most cases it would not be accurate. Plus playing melody over chord figures as jazz players describe it is really an American thing that came long after the common practice period in classical music so that would also create an anachronism

[geoffstockton]

@linkopinggulu Actually, in it's original form, Baroque music was largely based on the improvisational ornamentation of common harmonic formulae. At least that's what I've read from a couple authors on the subject. I suppose there probably is some value in keeping the classical performers in the dark about the theoretical and compositional nuts and bolts of things and leaving that to the composer. You get more technically capable players because they have less to focus on and learn.

[geoffstockton]

@linkopinggulu I didn't think of this in my first response but it dawned on me: Jazz tunes contain plenty of modulations, pivot chords, secondary dom chords, flat-scale tone chords, reversed polarity chords, all the non-diatonic material that you find in heavy duty classical compositions and there are means of notating all of it. There's no difference between composition and good improvisation aside from the fact that the later doesn't involve paper. All the same considerations are present.

[linkopinggulu]

Mr. Stockton is right! As a guitarist who studied classical music theory for many years the text book rule about melodic minor scale has also puzzled me. Finally I decided to ignore the rule and observe how the scale is used by the masters. Take the first counter-subject in the famous C minor Fugue by J.S. Bach BWV847 (WTC1) for instance. The descending scale has natural B and A emphasizing the underlying harmony, which is G!

[geoffstockton]

@linkopinggulu Yeah, I've found a fare amount of Bach excerpts that really illustrate the practical melodic minor usage.  A couple examples in the first Bach piece that I learned: Bouree in E minor.

[Ollievarium]

Best guitar lessons on youtube man!

[Ollievarium]

Best guitar lessons on youtube man!

[geoffstockton]

@Ollievarium Wow, thanks man.

[fishqwer]

You are talking out of your ass... As far as not having chords written in classical music, you get it all the time!! Have you ever heard of figured bass? Bach used this system for many of his keyboard parts, especially organ.

Btw, you know NOTHING of classical performers... 6:10 and on proves your ignorance.

[geoffstockton]

@fishqwer I know about figured bass and I know that outside of composition classes, it's a dead art which isn't really used in performance anymore, which I think is a shame. As far as me not knowing anything of classical performers, I've had plenty of close friends who've played in orchestras and I've spent hours talking theory and trying to make spontaneous music with them. What I say is true. Sorry to have offended you so deeply. Now get back into your typing cubicle, you drone.

[fishqwer]

@geoffstockton I think you should check out how figured bass is still used. A large amount of (church) organ music is written with figured bass as a sort of short-hand. I also think it's a totally unfair assumption to say that classical musicians can not improvise. Maybe your experience with well accomplished classical musicians is limited, but I have had a very different experience. I suppose it's your right to be a snob, but you're really only damaging yourself...

[geoffstockton]

@fishqwer You're right that I shouldn't be a snob. But it's no secret how devalued improvisation has become in classical and as a result a good majority of classical musicians have less ability to spontaneously navigate harmonic structures. I've dealt with a good lot of these types and they were gainfully employed by there local civic orchestras. In other words, they weren't exactly amateurs. The majority were insufferable as improvisers. That doesn't happen with professional jazz and blues.

[fishqwer]

@geoffstockton There is no such thing as a truly improvised solo. When you solo you are playing ideas from licks/scales/arpegios that you have already worked out. Any classical performer knows all of this technique, if given a lesson on how to apply things i bet they would be killer. Think about this. You learn to blow by listening to the heavy players like trane. Classical performers don't have improv giants in their style to listen to, so how can they be expected to play what they don't hear?

[geoffstockton]

@fishqwer Bach was an improv giant and so was Mozart. Most of the great composers were great improvisers. I said it once, I'll say it again: There's no difference between composition and good improvisation aside from the fact that the later doesn't involve paper. All the same considerations are present. Music is a language and just because I'm using words that already exist doesn't mean I'm not improvising when I talk. Using pre-existing material doesn't stop it from being improvisation.

[mLiebzeit]

@geoffstockton nice! wow if this is what im gonna learn in college, i cant wait. ur a genius man!

[fishqwer]

@geoffstockton My point is that you can't expect a classical player to have the improv chops of a jazz musician. A large portion of jazz study is focused on soloing and creating ideas while these concepts don't exist in the classical world, so the playing field is not level. Give a well trained classical performer the know-how and I think you would be blown away. I have witnessed many classical players turned jazz, and boy they are killer.

[geoffstockton]

@fishqwer Your point here was exactly the point I was making in the first place. I never said a classical performer couldn't improvise if given the proper education to do so. I'm saying that they aren't given that education because the classical world has this snobby and ignorant view of improv as somehow holding less value than composition when in reality they're the same thing except you don't have hours of your time to hide behind when improvising. You really have to know your shit.

[mLiebzeit]

@geoffstockton hahahaha!! exactly =]

[kratanuva725]

@fishqwer Umm, modern classicail preformers are much diffrent today than they were in the 16th centurey... lol.

I DO think that a lot of classical preformers do have a lot more knoledge of music theroy than he gives them credit for, but they sure don't know how to improvise very well...

[fishqwer]

@kratanuva725 Please don't generalize. You're trying to tell me that as soon as you call yourself a classical performer, you lose any ability to improvise? I think not. Maybe some people never invested any time in improvisation, but I personally know quite a few that have.

[kratanuva725]

@fishqwer Umm, no. I meant MOST of them, sorry if I didn'ty clarify.

I would call myself a classical preformer, and I can improvise.

[fishqwer]

@kratanuva725 Fair enough. To me that's like yelling at a pastry chef because he can't cook meat. Classical performers do not really need the ability to improvise. Even still, I respect classical performers greatly, because what they can do, they do it damn well.

[dblrks]

@kratanuva725 thats the point hes making there so in there theory that they get limited .............

[OberonTheGoat]

You, sir, have lifted the veil on the melodic minor scale. Thank you thank you thank you!!

[LectricEel]

Geoff you are giving one of the most precious gifts insight and understanding that cuts through the crap I lecture at a University (sadly not in music) but many I see around me simply wheel out the same tired old approach stating (and sometimes hiding behind) the usual rules/laws/fomulas etc - but often this dogma doesnt enable anyone to really comprehend what is happening you are truly the Richard Feynman of Jazz guitar I salute you big time !

[geoffstockton]

Wow, you made my day! Thank you! Can I quote you on the back of my book?

[LectricEel]

Of course! thanks! Ive only just come across your utube series - cant wait

to get back for some more - I just love it when things fall into place like that scale that was always taught as ascending one way and descending the other - complete madness and very confusing to most players - theres too much of this in the world - people blindly repeating the same

old dogma becuase they dont understand themeselves whats actually

going on - thanks again for sharing all this!

[LectricEel]

happening you are truly the Richard Feynman of Jazz guitar I salute you big time!

[gatluva]

oh and sometimes you sound a little like Chris off the family guy haha, no offence!

[geoffstockton]

lol, I'm gonna have to work on that!

[gatluva]

thank you soooo much my friend. Some of my students have asked that of me and my reply has been... umm...well not quite what you have said. love your work, keep it up.

[gangstersolo69]

i still think using the melodic minor wile acending and natural minor when decinding is a great idea melodicaly even if its out of key because it creates a feeling of tenscion when going higher and a kind of rest when going back to the lower notes

that might be why

[geoffstockton]

As long as the chords are conforming to that it's fine but if you're doing it in spite of the chord changes, you're gonna have a shit sandwich on your hands.

[Orionsglare]

at last some explanation about this...thanx!

[junka22]

Hey Geoff. I personally just use the term 'melodic minor' to refer to the scale with the major sixth and never mind the ascending descending thing as does my teacher. I agree on what you said about classical and jazz in the traditional sense, the lines have begun to blur which is a great thing, music needs to move forward. As Ellington put it: "There are two kinds of music. Good music, and the other kind". :)

[geoffstockton]

Yeah, I love classical music but that's the shortcoming that I see in it's basic ...uh administration? Every style of music has some kind of pitfall and with jazz, I'd say that it's players having the tendency to play the same bag of tricks on every song simply because the freedom to do that is available to them. As a result (with-in straight ahead jazz) you have very little uniqueness of structure and ornamentation. You gotta love stuff in spite of it's faults, in order to enjoy life, though.