Isaiah 9:6 states that jesus is the son and father. According to Trinity that cannot work. Trinity says the son is not the father and vice verse.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
This is a satanic video. Speaking a lie that's not even in the bible. When god was speaking Us and our. He is speaking to the heavenly host because he is the lord of host. Angels did not create man God alone did. There is no separate persons (Gods) in the oneness of god. Gods name is Jesus and he is the Father, son, and the holy ghost. The 3 are titles not persons. Manifestations of god.
For a true and accurate understanding of both the trinity and immortality of the soul, yahoo search "origin of the trinity" and click on "from paganism to Constantine" and then yahoo search "origin of immortality of the soul" and click on "immortal soul". History and archaeology go hand in hand with biblical teachings and they do not lie. These historians are well known and highly respected historians all the way down to Plato. Be prepared for a very servere shock!!!
@TheCaledonianBoy You wrote "How can you say "all three have existed when the bible clearly says that Jesus was created?" You raise the issue of what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't not say that Jesus was created but that the Word was "IN THE BEGINNING with God" and "became flesh and DWELT AMONG us". St John was one of the Twelve and his gospel says "θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" (either "the Word was a god" or "the Word was God"). How could a Jew believe the Word was a separate God?
The Trinity is true because of the co-substantiality of the Immanent and Economic Trinity.Christ's dyotheletism and emhypostasia is clearly taught in the NT.Christ is homoousios as the Father and Spirit who in the kenosis revealed the perichoresis of the three. It is the ad intra and ab extra manifestation that reveals the eternal procession in the notions of the taxis and the ordo salutis which manifests the inner immanence of the Trinity.
God can be compared to the Sun in certain respects. The sun is a sphere of gas. We can only see it's there because it sends us light. We also feel the invisible heat it produces. The Sun's light and warmth are produced within it so it would be wrong to say that they are not as much the Sun as the gas. Yet gas is not light is not heat. Likewise, Jesus is the light by which we see the image of the Father and he brings with him the life-giving Holy Spirit. All are distinct yet all are God.
if the trinity is true than that means that someday satan is going to accomplish something that God could not, trinitarians have no problem admitting that there is one satan, who is the father of lies, the spirit of iniquity who will one day become the son of perdition when he goes and takes up residence inside one man and that one man will be all of satan and he will have one name.
who is more valuable, one person who can do the work of three, or the three persons working together as one?
To be a Dreamer of World, God gave us Imagination as a Talent from God. Then this Talent reveals the Trinity to us, We are one being, our mind sustains a dream, then we enter the dream as an Entity within it, then we happen to see people, places and things, then BEHOLD , we finally see ourselves as a person among the others and we fly like a Spirit and enter that Person as a body and begin to behave a One within One World, within One Mind that sustains it all the while. 3=1
bro william Branham said that both trinity and oneness are BOTH WRONG!
he said when you get it between oneness and trinity you will get it just exaclty
some of the in between terminology that he used was Jesus was a Dual person, Father and Son were inseperable or yoked together.
God and Christ were in divine fellowship. that is why when Jesus said I have sat down with my Father on His throne yet John only saw ONE sitting upon the throne
trinity is a very difficult concept to understand, even for christians. They try very hard to convince themselves. Pity them. I have heard that long time ago, the pagan elements (pagan gods) were combined to make it easier for pagans to accept christianity, just like they accept pagan holidays and celebrate it as christmas or easter. Pity them
your wrong my friend. I myself do not celebrate ANY holidays, including Christmas or Easter or Thanksgiving, not even my birthday. What happened was that way back, the Roman Empire, heavily influenced by the Catholic Church, expanded its borders and to make pagans easily convert to christianity, they placed "christian" holidays on what were originally pagan days of celebration. to me, holidays have become an excuse to be gluttonous and focus on physical desire.
@Jesusisposttrib This is typical of Mormons. They will stand behind the bible so long as it does not conflict with BoM or D&C. Once it does, it is out of picture. Like the WTS they keep bible only to seem legitemate. The Mormon faith is based totaly on a warm fuzzy feeling from reading BoM. This is why I am being accused of being Pharisee, cause I don't want to have a blind faith. Yet they call us when we accept stuff on faith that they don't like. Seems kind of one sided.
"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." (Acts 19:6)
Peter told them that they will receive the Holy Ghost that doesn't mean it is automatic. They will receive it when they have hands laid upon there head and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It helps to read the whole Bible to know what it says!
@ViCe1986 Your right. Already read the WHOLE bible have you? Not the abridged version that is floating around. This is how the Holy Spirit is passed down. The chain is unbroken! We have zero proof that Smith was ordained, yet we have 120 witnesses to the Holy Spirit comming to the Apostles! And even more to witness to the spread of the faith.
We also have 500,000 witnesses to the Apostles murder, if you refuse to accept the truth that is your porogative, but know that no Bishop was given any keys from Peter. Only an Apostle can hold the keys to the Kingdom, for Christ is a ORDERED King we does not allow just anyone to take the reigns of his Kingdom.
When a man take the honor of the priesthood (which includes the keys) the Spirit withdraws and man is left to there own devices.
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" (Ephesians 2:20)
The Apostles were not a temporary quorum of leaders, without Apostles you have no foundation and you know what happens to a house with out a foundation when the wind and rain beats on it!
Ephesians 2:20 is perfect evidence that only Apostles can hold the keys for only Apostles and Prophets are the foudnation of the true Church.
Your problems is you have not faith and demand "proof", there is no proof in faith. There is evidence and testimony. We get evidence of truth through the scriptures and testimony of the truth through sincere prayer.
Only hypocrites like the Pharisees demand proof to believe. This is your choice to make though, I present valid scripture!
@ViCe1986 Here is the biblical definition of Faith:
Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.
I'm sorry but Eph 2:20 says nothing about the keys. You are reading into that what you want to believe. You believe that faith should be based on a warm fuzzy feeling, and does not have to be reasonable. I believe otherwise. Faith should never contradict reason!
Joseph is the Prophet of the Restoration, as in all times of past darkness, God called Joseph to restore the light of the Gospel to the world.
He was called and ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood by John the Baptist in 1829 and later that year called and ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood by Peter, James, and John. He used this authority to restore the Church of Jesus Christ on April 6, 1830 as commanded to by Christ.
Well the strongest proof is common sense, all offices are filled by ordination. We see this throughout the Bible, so when Christ calls his twelve disciples he ordains them.
While there is nowhere in the New Testament where the words "Christ ordained . . ." appeared in regards to the Twelve. It does say in Matthew 10:1 and Luke 9:1 that he called them and gave them power and authority. The only way to give power and authority is through ordaining them to the priesthood.
@ViCe1986 Ok... then you are making the assumption that the Apostles never ordained anyone, yet this clearly contradicts scripture where we know that they did. Therefore since they ordianed people to follow them, those people must also have ordiained other, therefore we should see a chain leading all the way back to Christ, unbroken! There is a 1800 year gap between Christ and Smith.
When did I say they never ordained anyone, cause I have been saying that they did all along. The problem is the Apostles were all killed off by those who persecuted the Church. No a bishop cannot magically become an Apostle because there is no Apostles around this isn't a democracy it is the ordered kingdom of God.
There is no such thing as an unordained succession to the apostleship of Christ's Church, only a man called of God can be ordained to any office of the priesthood.
@ViCe1986 Boy you are confused... they Ordained men, but did not ordain men? which is it. If they ordained them then they gave them the authority they had. Ignatious in 100 recognizes the Bishops as the successors to the Apostles. We also see a 3 tiered system of Deacon/Preist/Bishop firmly in place by then.
Just for the record why do you trust scripture to be authoritave if the church that decided books was in apostacy?
8 years later in the Kirtland Ohio Temple they were visited by Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. Christ bestowed the Keys of the Kingdom to seal and loose, Moses the keys of the gathering of Israel, and Elijah bestowed the keys of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers (as prophesied by Malachi)
This completed the process of called the Restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ.
Hundreds of eye witnesses, the Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, my testimony from the Holy Ghost that this Church is true.
Where is your "proof" that your bishop received the keys to the kingdom when only an Apostle can hold the Keys?
Your question is loaded and your have no more proof for your beliefs than I, there is no such thing as proof in faith. Proof destroys faith, for you can only have faith in things that are unseen.
@ViCe1986 How do you know that the D&C is inspired?
Where does it say that only an Apostle can hold the Keys of the kingdom? I must of missed that in scripture. :-)
There are witnesses to the Gospels, both secular and non-canonical writtings. Also there is no contradictions written. There are however many writings condeming heretical believes, and many of these rejected many of books that became NT (becuase the conflicted with their believes).
I just told you this, History of the Church records the restoration of the Priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.
Who are the witnesses to the ordination of any of the Apostles? There is none there ordination is recorded in text but there is never any witness statements attached.
But of course one who knows the Bible so well as you declare would already know that no ordination in the Bible has witness statements with it!
@ViCe1986 There were 120 people present when the Holy Spirit desended upon the Apostles and all those present. There were over 2000 people who witnessed Peters first Speach a few minutes later. There was more then 12 persons in the room when Jesus breathed on the Apostles and gave them Authority. There were also many present when Aaron was annointed. Moses proved his authority by preforming signes and bringing the people out of Egypt. So we have plenty of witnesses. Who witnesses Smiths?
@ViCe1986 This does not prove that a Bishop is not a successor to the Apostles. Keep in mind the office of Apostle is called a Bishopric in Acts 1. So you believe that the Bible, BoM and D&C are inspired because they feel inspired to you?
And how does one receive the power of theHoly Ghost?
My Bible says that happens by laying on of hands to receive the gift of the holy ghost. Only an properly ordained melkesidek preisthoodholder (the priesthood of Christ) can confer the gift of the holy ghost.
One more remember Christ's house is one of order, you need the proper authority to officers on his behalf. Those men called were killed off and man lost the authority to hold any priesthood office.
@ViCe1986 The problem is that they ordained others before they died. Ignatious was ordained by John. Clement and Polycarp by Peter. All of these men lived while the Apostles still lived. Clement was 3 bishop of Rome while John was Bishop of Antioch! Who was replaced with Ignatious when John was arrested and attemped to be executed. So there still is a valid priesthood, it was never lost becuase Christ promised us it would not be.
No Bishop can hold the keys to the Kingdom! Only an Apostle can hold the keys, a Bishop needs to be directed by an Apostle, not vice versa.
The Bishops receive letters and council from the Apostles and lead local congregations. The reason of Bishops is the fact that 12 Apostles can not be in every congregation in every city every Sabbath Day!
A Bishop has absolutely no authority outside his congregation and even then he has no authority except though the Apostles who hold the Keys
@ViCe1986 I need prove that only an Apostle can hold the keys. And I need this from scripture, if you can't provide it, you can't make that assumption. So provide scriptural proof that bishops are not the successors to the Apostles, when Acts 1 calles the offices of Apostle a Bishopric!
@ViCe1986 I will have to do some more research on this... but a quick reading leads me to believe this is talking about destruction of temple in 70AD.
How does a temples destruction have anything to do with a famine of the word of god?
A temple is a building, loss of it is a terrible thing but rememer that there was only the tabernacle for hundreds of years.
The loss of the word of god is great apostasy that came from the wickedness of the people in Amos time. The point is that wicked people who reject the chosen leaders of god create a famine of the word of god.
@ViCe1986 However scripture is quite clear that the apostles passed on their authority to others. And that this authority was never lost. Becuase God promised us it would not be.
If they passed it on where are the modern apostles?
The keys cannot be passed to any one only one properly called and ordained. Christ didn't call apostles to then pass the power of the kingdom to some random bishop that isn't even recorded in any historical textboutaode the RCC
@ViCe1986 cont but be subject also to the presbytery as representing the Apostles of Jesus Christ, our hope, in whom we are expected to live forever. It is further necessary that the deacons, the dispensers of the mysteries of Jesus Christ, should win the approval of all in every way; for they are not
dispensers of food and drink, but ministers of a church of God. Hence they must be on
There is only one problem with your incorrect assumption "And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. " (Hebrews 5:4)
Aaron was called by God and ordained by laying on of hands to a priesthood office by one holding the proper authority. Peter never passed his authority and no one was properly ordained to carry on in his stead.
A bishop is a local leader and an apostle is a high leadership. Only apostles can hold the keys of the kingdom.
@ViCe1986 Right in Acts Peter declares Apostles an Office.
Acts 1:20. For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.
26. And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Acts 6:6. These they set before the apostles; and they praying, imposed hands upon them.
It is clear from acts that laying of hands was done by Apostles.
@ViCe1986 We can see a clear succession following Apostles into succeding Bishops. So much so that Irenaous in 180AD lists the Bishops of Rome becuase that is the most important Church. He lists them going back to Peter! We have an unbroken chain of documents that can lead us right back to the Apostles and their believes.
Christ gave the keys of the kingdom to the apostles, there office and there office alone holds the keys. When they were lost to the world so was the keys. No keys means no authority to officate in any office.
A bishop from Rome renamed the Pope cannot hold the keys to the kingdom ever. Only an apostle can hold the keys.
If Jesus wanted the keys to be held by a bishop he would of bestowed it to a bishop. He didn't though he bestowed it to an Apostle, his house is one of order.
@ViCe1986 However if Apostile is an office as scripture says, then another can take the place when that person dies. Bishop comes from Greek worked Episcopos, or Overseer. Peter calls the office of Apostle Overseer in Acts 1! If another can take the place, then the number of apostles can also expand as the need grows. Paul was an apostle, yet he never met Jesus when he was alive. How could Paul become an Apostle unless one of the Apostles ordained him!
Exactly Paul was ordained an apostle by an apostle. No one claims that the Pope is an Apostle he is the Bishop of Rome, he doesn't hold the proper office to hold the keys of the kingdom.
Just like a President can make a mayor his successor, the proper office holder (in this case the VP, in the churches case another Apostle) can take the the office. no apostles = no authority
@ViCe1986 However this is not the believe of those that followed the Apostles. Ignatuous said to follow the Bishops as you would the Apostles. The Pope is the Prime Minister. Go look up the function of Prime minister in ancient kingdoms. He held all authority during kings absences. And this was an Office, if the person died, another would take his place. Generaly choosen from the other ministers under the king. This would occur even in kings absence.
The King isn't absent though silly! Christ lives and reigns over the true Church so any Church claiming the priesthood and not being lead by Apostles cannot be correct.
Christ is not absent he sent the Holy Ghost to reveal the will of the Father to us. When the apostles died off the heavens were closed because there was no more proper priesthood leaders and the Keys were lost to mankind.
The reason why a monarch would leave a steward or prime minister behind in there stead is because there is no way in ancient times to communicate to the King so he can make important decisions in his kingdom while off at war or suing for peace.
Christ Church stands on the rock of revelation, so if the revelations stop (aka the communication) that means you have a house built on sand and it is toppled by the waves.
@ViCe1986 Only the Mormons claim that there leaders recieve private revelation. The King is not physicaly communicating will us right now. Besides the fact there there is nothing more to communicate, the laws don't change. So if your church adds new stuff (polygamy, becomming gods etc) you need to be very wary of that. Also private revealtion can't contradict public revealation!
@ViCe1986 without the Church how do we even know that scripture is valid? There is no table of contents other then what the publisher puts in to the best of my knowledge. If there is no Church then the LDS can't be the church either. We are let with nothing. I can't beleive Christ would totaly abandon us.
Christ never abandoned anyone, many men felt the presence of Christ during the Great Apostasy. The Apostasy removes the authority to act in the name of God from the Earth and the heavens are closed to man so we cannot receive revelation, but man is not abandoned Christ never abandons those who look for him.
Those who looked form him found pieces that lead them to believe that the Church they had was not complete.
A great apostasy is the loss of the priesthood leadership on the Earth in this case the loss of the Apostles around 100 AD.
No ordained leaders means no protection from false teachings. Any creeds that originate after the apostolic era are man made and are the result of Apostasy.
Apostasy effects almost all doctrine, since without the ordained leadership from God the false teachers can freely corrupt the teachings like they were trying to before the death of the apostles.
Any traditions started by non apostolic authority is not complete truth, only Apostles guided by God have the authority and power to make doctrine and start traditions in Christ's Church.
Doctrine such as the Trinity, Infant Baptism, Indulgences, Creato ex Nihlo, Transubstantiation, Papal infallibility, the Papacy, non immersion baptism, ect
All these things were made with best interest in mind but without proper authority from God to make such doctrine they are invalid in God's eyes.
@ViCe1986 However we have proof from scripture that the Apostles did Ordain men. They used term laying on of Hands rather than ordain but this does not mean much.
BTW Each one of these doctrines you mentioned can be traced straight to scripture. If you would like to I can go over each one in private... it is too involved in posts.
Traced to the scripture (and no none of these have any scriptural backing at all) not from the scripture see if you take a verse here and a verse there you can make make incest into a doctrine if you so desire.
Your are a wicked man in try and say that buying your way into heaven through the satanic practice of the RCC called indulgences is a Biblical practice!
Your lies are your own undoing, indulgences it the work of Satan in the RCC
You put your faith in men who slap the savior in the face by destroy his teachings that wealth is a burden to your eternal soul by even suggesting that the vile practice of the Papacy to let the rich buy redemption is scriptural!
This discussion if done sir, I don't toss my pearls to swine that believe men can buy heaven!
Learn you Bible and repent of your wicked ways!
I pray for you brother!
God Bless your poor deceived soul, that believes men can purchase eternal life!
@ViCe1986 Now the insults start when you can't prove your position.
The Church has not nor has it ever taught we can buy or earn our way into heaven. She has always taught salvation is a free Gift. It can't be earned. You obviously have no clue what an indulgence is if you believe you are earning your way into heaven by them.
@ViCe1986 The problem here is that I see no change in doctrines at this time. I see many heretical groups, however these are being called out. I have found no change in teaching since day one.
I also have found no evidence that Smith was ordained by anyone let alone Christ. Far as I know this happend in private between Christ and him.
People throughout the period of time we refer to as the Great Apostasy were looking for Christ and sought his will over the will of men.
The most notable was Martian Luther the Catholic Priest who is the founder of protestantism, and there are many others who sought to find the fullness of Christ knowing through divine inspiration that something was missing.
These reformers, theologians, philosophers, all lead the way for the restoration to happen in 1830.
@ViCe1986 How can they have lead the way if the Chruch was apostate. That would mean that Smith was just another one of the reformers who continued to change doctrine.
I want the date for this Great Apostacy so I can research it... none can give me one. If not a date, give me a change in doctrine that occured.
No a reformer changes what he has already through the logic and reasoning of men, a restorer bring it back to it's original condition through the power of God.
The Protestant reformations were an important step to allow religious freedom (before that the Catholic Church tended to murder anyone who they didn't like so a restoration was impossible at those times), the creation of the printing press, and the founding of the United State were important steps that led up to the restoration
@ViCe1986 Actualy the reformers changed things to fit their believes. They changed what was always taught. And they brought about private interpretation of scripture which has resulted in anarchy! Meanwhile the Church did reform herself and fix bad practices. Practices not teachings! People were not following what she taught.
@ViCe1986 Correct I agree we need a reliable interpreture for scripture from day one. Scripture does not interpret itself. You are saying that Christ did not provide us one until Smith. This means that Christ abandoned us between 33AD and 1840ishAD. But you say he did not abandon us, this is very confusing. Either he did or he did not which one do you choose?
Where does the bible talk about internet? Or cell phones? of television? or condoms? or equal rights for women? or equal rights for minorities?
Your would rather have imperfect men interpret a book that discuses nothing of modern controversies, to find the will of God.
Well I will go right to the source through the living Apostles, like Abraham, Isaac, and Israel I wish to know the will of my God for me this day not yesterday!
@ViCe1986 However we have no proof that the LDS church is the current living Apostles. Many can claim, but they can't trace themselves back to Christ in 33AD.
We have the fruits of the Prophet of the Restoration, The Book of Mormon. Test his fruits to see if they are good and you will know that his successors are the Apostles of Jesus Christ like I do.
Our members receive personal revelation and our Apostles (as the holder of the keys to the kingdom) recieve revelation pertaining to the Church and the entire world.
Personal revelations to each members deal with important decision in there own life and are private and not discussed unless the member feels like sharing.
All of our Church leadership's revelations for the Body of Christ and the world are never private though.
These are told upon the hilltops to the entire world!
@ViCe1986 Well yes it is possible for a person to recieve personal revealation. However public revealation must not contradict what has already been taught. Smith contradicted 1800 years of teaching. Note personal revealation is only binding on individual.
These men are not ordained to make these teachings so there teachings are false teachings and a Prophet was called to restore the original truth, the truth of the Gospel, to the Earth.
1800 years of uninspired teachings is just that uninspired and flawed reasoning of men. Most of which was never changed (since there teachings are of God) like that black eye of Catholicism, indulgences which to this day is a recognized doctrine of the RCC.
@ViCe1986 This does not make sense... what were they ordained for if not to teach what the apostles taught?
BTW.. there is nothing wrong with indulgences... they are very scriptural. However they require a Catholic understanding of salvation to understand. They will make no sense to Mormon.
Show me one verse in the bible where God, Christ, or even an Apostle promises that the authority of God will never be lost to mankind again?
I have never seen a single verse that says this to the early Christian Church, in fact I see the opposite the Apostles warn of false teachings and wolves in sheep's clothing that are circling the church and filling it with untrue things.
The OT is a cycle of apostasy and restoration, look at the falls and returns of Israel.
John 14:26. But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
The paraclete will John 16:8. And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment.
Jesus promised the paraclete to the Apostles, this they passed on via the laying on of hands. This was to prevent apostacy.
Well if you look at verse 16-17 you see this rock is Peter (in Greek Peter and rock are both called petros, so it is a play on words) guided by revelation from God. Hence revelation cannot be overcome by death or hell. revelation ended with the apostles though.
You speak of Christ being the rock, that's fine but that means that This verse has nothing to do with a church or the bible but foretells that Christ will overcome death and resurrect.
Well, see that the point, in reality eternal is just that eternal it doesn't change so keep your false god who changes from god to man and back to god!
I'll keep praising the Son of the One True God in the Flesh Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today, and forever!
So at first you say he changed from God to man, now when confronted with your obvious mistake you say he never changed and ignore the contradiction of that statement to the previous?
The Jews and Romans did stop the Church, the killed all the Apostles and left the world without the Keys to the Kingdom, ending the priesthood authority of God and diving the world into another period of Great Apostasy.
The Romans don't debate they kill, so they have no need to discredit the teachings of some Jew.
The Jews have no need to discredit what they consider to be the teachings of a heretic that was crucified for blasphemy.
@ViCe1986 Did Jesus lie in Matt 16:18 when he said that the Gates of hell would not prevail? Did the spirit of truth leave them and stop guiding the to all truth?
The gates of hell (hades or death) did not prevail against the rock. But what is the Rock that Christ speaks of?
He tells us that the rock is revelation in the previous verses, Peter knew Christ was the Son of God not by reason or logic but through the revelation of God.
Revelation is the rock that death cannot overcome, and when there is no revelations there is no true Church.
So no, Christ did not lie, he said that revelation is rock to build on, and only that!
@ViCe1986 Hmmm this does not make sense. Becuase he changed Simon Johnson's name to Rock. If you look at the flow, Jesus follows the same flow. Whether we want to say he built his Church on Peters Faith or Peter himself we could debate. However we know Peter did not have strong faith. Therefore I would have to think he built it on Peter. Also note he gave Peter unpressidented power with the authority to bind and loose!
@ViCe1986 The Apostles as a whole were an interesting bunch. They show us that Christ did not build his church on holy perfect men. But men who are not always right. However the Holy Spirit was sent to protect them from teaching error. Read commisioning of Peter in John 21:15-17. This has even deeper meaning if you know the greek. However he is being commissioned to be a shepard of the flock. He is prime minister. Compare Matt 16 first half, with Isa 22 second half.
It's funny that you can ignore the web of lies you spin about the nature of God, a Bible without error (and back it up with proof that cannot exist!), and have the gall to attack my faith instead of admit your own mistakes and misconceptions!
I guess if you can't make God into what you want him to be then just deny the truth!
It works and if that is what you wish I am happy for you my brother, I just wish that you continue prayerful study of the Holy Bible!
@ViCe1986 The bible is actualy very well preserved. We also have quotes from it existing in other sources which we can use to determine correct renderings of the text. Besides true christainity is not based on one verse or two, but the bible as a whole. Considering the percecusions the early church when through It is not supprising we lack true manuscripts. However with BOM we lack original gold plates less then 200 years after it was written. I find the pretty convienent! We can't check them.
Also tell me where Christ tells us to make a graven image of a cross to be a Christian?
My bible says "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" (Exodus 20:4)
You can keep the modern version of Aaron's Golden Calf, I will stick to the word of God!
@ViCe1986 However have you read a couple chapters later where God commands the construction of the temple? THere are images all over the place!!!!! Including things on heaven and earth. The key point here is we are not to worship these as Gods. However we are physical creatures and these symbols help us to remember things. God also commanded Moses to make a brazen serpant and the poeple were to look up to it! Prefigureing the cross.
@ViCe1986 Making images is not the problem. It is worshiping them as God that is the problem. People today worship money, celebraties etc... this is what God does not want us to do. Satues are not a problem. He did not command the serpent staff to be destroyed until the poeple started to worship it.
Well once more I read the Bible and it tells me "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." (Romans 8: 17-18)
Joint-heir might have a different meaning to you but in my opinion it means all Christ inherits I inherit also.
@ViCe1986 Note here Phil 2:6. Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Christ did not think being equal with God was something we should strive for.
However Peter says 2 Pet 1:4. By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.
We will not become God, but somehow take part in it. Don't ask what this will be like.
That's impressive that manuscripts existed before they were written down! The theological community (you know those guys that spend there entire life studying the Bible) says the NT was just was just beginning to be recorded between 65 and 72 AD (meaning your library was abandoned while they started to record or before the scrolls were written) and not finished till as late ad 150 AD are all liars and you are right?
If it was exactly the same it wouldn't be ignored by every ecclesiastical body in Christianty. No denomination of Christianity accepts the dead sea scrolls as cannon because there are differences between the DSS and the Bible.
Wow, so not you not only ignore God word, change it regularly to fit your design, destroy the supreme nature of God the Father, but now you are without sin since you have the audacity to judge me as if you have no sin!
You are why people call honest God fearing Christians like me hypocrites, you give Christ and his honest followers bad names.
You distort the truth and love doing so, you hate, and you are far from the straight and narrow because you hate!
Only one changing the Bible is you, while the Holy Bible isn't inerrant (unless Christ was never born) that doesn't make it false either just a written record of a perfect God made by the hands of imperfect men.
Well this one track mind will follow the pea brains Paul, Amos, and Christ.
Continue to make up your own faith anti christ that makes God into a compulsive liar who is mentally ill and has multiple personalities and natures!
I'll stick with my One True God who is almighty and perfect and sent his Only Begotten Son to save me! I will worship him and only him and put no other gods (especially psychotic made up ones) before him like he commands me to in Exodus 20:3
Your Statement:The bible is good as long as it is translated correctly,So you don't know which leader said this, which also means that it is possible that no LDS leader said this. Without evidence or proof your statement is a blatant lie. No LDS leader ever made this statement and I personally guarantee that to be truth . I invite you to prove me wrong here and achieve your victory over the "wicked Mormon"!
Its your eighth arlicle of faith by Joseph Smith,Why are you still talking?
Wow you wicked liar. Do you know no shame at all?
Here is your statement you bigot: the bible is the Word of God as long as it doesent contradict with any of the teachings of Joseph Smith or Brigham young or whoever your leaders are
Here is the 8th Article of Faith: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
If you can only respond by lying about your previous lies then there is nothing else to talk about really. Keep your satanic hate pent up in your heart and lie through your teeth like you consistently do here but the truth of the Restored Gospel always drives away the darkness of your falsehoods.
The 8th Article of Faith does not say the bible is correct how J.S. says or anything of the sort, but in your wickedness you will simply ignore your lies and continue on.
Your statement is false I challenged it as untrue then you lie to cover up a lie! Not the acts of a honest Christian if you ask me!
The Bible is the word of God as far as men have not made errors in recording, translating, and interpreting it. Since there is thousands of interpretations of the bible there is obvious error otherwise there wouldn't be thousands of Churches but one unified Church as Christ wanted.
You are a wolf in sheep's clothing and I expose your falsehoods.
@ViCe1986 Dont lie like a coward because you have been caught in your lie:
eighth article of faitht:We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly
I say what that really means is:the bible is the Word of God as long as it doesent contradict with any of the teachings of Joseph Smith or Brigham young or whoever your leaders are
after that you said I was putting words into your mouth,I said they were not your words but Joseph Smiths
@ViCe1986 then you swore out and gave me your guarantee that no lds leader ever said that,you just thought of that all by yourself.I exposed your lie,by proving that statement is the eight article of faith by Joseph Smith:
your statement:Without evidence or proof your statement is a blatant lie. No LDS leader ever made this statement and I personally guarantee that to be truth . I invite you to prove me wrong here and achieve your victory over the "wicked Mormon"!
@ViCe1986 Now thats exactly what happened and you know it,dont you dare try to misrepresent me.Im sorry you took offense to my comment about the bible being good as far as it is translated correctly.But that was not your statement and you lied about it,youve already done a diservice to your false religion by being caught in a lie.
If you dont hold the bible to be completly true there is only so much I can say to you,I think the bible is the word of God,you think the book of mormon(dumb) is
Truth check: you say I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. THAT'S A LIE!
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." 8th Article of Faith of
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Also note that there is nothing about Joseph Smith and Brigham Youngs "interpretations" mentioned here. Only you seek to "interpret" things that are straight forward.
@ViCe1986 No you dont believe the bible is the word of God,you may say you do,and you may even think you do,but if you did you wouldnt you wouldnt believe the book of mormon to be the word of God.There is only one word of God and that is the bible.Nowhere in the bible was anyone commanded to write another book,in fact you were commanded not to in Rev 22:18,19.So I say woe to your lying false prophet Joseph Smith,for doing just that and misleading you
Yes there is one word of God, Jesus Christ. The Bible is a record of Christ written by ancient prophets (a simple person like you thinks it is a book but it is 66 books) the BoM is a record of Christ written by ancient prophets.
Only one of little faith puts there faith in a written record over the loving word of God, Jesus Christ.
Also anyone with two brains cells know that Rec 22:18 says "this book of prophecy" which is revelation not the entire Bible.
@ViCe1986 I dont know everything you believe, I know you accept the book of Mormon,and that makes you false,you dont hold the bible to be completly true,I can show you something in the bible and you will just say well thats wrong because it wasnt translated properly,if you accepted the bible as the word of God you would not add to it with some book of mormon,or any other false book,the bible says not to even greet someone who brings another teaching.so maybe I should stop talking to you
Also, how dare you claim to know what I believe or do not believe. You don't know me and only a really big false teacher could be so filled with hate and arrogance.
I accept the Bible as the word of God as far as it is correctly translated, I also accept the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Cpveanants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the inspired words of the loving apostles as the word of God.
Most importantly I accept Jesus Christ as the Word!
@ViCe1986 What hate are you talking about,I dont hate you,I really feel sorry for you,because your leader Joseph Smith was a false prophet,and a racist at that.He was too much of a coward to stick to the bible so he wrote the book of Moron,the bible warned about false prophets claiming to see some revelation from God,or claiming some authority from him,its why I left the one I was in.Now I can spot a false Teacher a mile away and buddy you are false.waiting on your hateful reply fool of insults
Well at least your consistent! You speak as if you know my or my faith and lie and slander my faith in Christ just as you do for the Prophet Joseph Smith.
It takes a lot of hate to lie and slander in my opinion hence why you in my opinion are not a follower of Christ.
Unlike you though I will disagree with your interpretations, I will rebuke your false teachings and present my evidence against them with explanation (which you haven't done once),
Your faith in Christ I will never attack though, you the have the right to observe your faith as you please.
Your practices and beliefs are not biblical but only a wicked person can think they are so perfect to judge anothers faith in Christ like you feel entitled too.
Your web of lies have caught you several times and for one that lies of having insults thrown at them you are quick to call me a lying coward. They call that being a hypocrite sir and Christ rebukes hypocrites.
@ViCe1986 You say I havent presented evidence,after all the scriptures ive shown you.This one scripture proves the foundation of your religion false,2nd Timothy 3:16,ALL scripture is inspired of GOD.The bible is protected by God because its his word and he will not allow anyone to make him out to be a liar.You should think better of God than you do,your religion is blasphemy,teaching that God would allow this to happen.Ive shown where the bible says not a single letter would be removed mat:5:18
And the king of pea brains and morons Jesus Christ who said "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (Matthew 7:15-16)
Your ignorance of my faith in Christ and my knowledge of the Bible is only superseded by your own ignorance of Christ and his teachings.
Better include the pea brain Paul who said "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;" (Ephesians 4:14)
We all know how little Paul's faith was, he had absolutely no faith at ALL (right?)
I guess Amos is a pea brained moron who doesn't have faith in God either since he says "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: 12And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." (Amos 8:11-12)
And you are an anti Christ since you rather follow the hate of the devil instead of the Christ who loves and cherishes all and would never call anyone moron or pea brained for disagreeing with him.
So take your sins and be gone or repent and rejoin a civilized discussion.
The dead sea scrolls do not do that at all they are not the exact same as the Holy Bible there are differences, plus the dead sea scrolls are not accepted by any faith as scripture so even if they were exactly the same the point is moot since they are not accepted as scripture by anyone at all.
The only fulfilled prophecies of the Bible are the Old Testament prophecies for Christ which only proves Christ and those prophecies true.
The Torah was not mass copied by hand like the New Testament only Priest were allowed to keep this record so it was far less susceptible to copy error and it was never translated into another language by the Jews eliminating translation error.
The OT also foretells of total apostasy and the restoration of truth in the latter days!
Well my bible teaches man has free will, guess yours teaches man has free will except when it pertains to the translation and copying of the Holy Bible then they have no free will and God violates his own law to personally guarantee that a volume of books is never changed whatsoever!
Take your false teachings and preach to some fool who does not know Elohim the mighty God of Israel and his anointed one, his Only Begotten Son , The GREAT I AM, Jesus Christ!
Yes, and where did he say that the written record of his word is completely unable to be wrongly translated or misinterpreted, or copied wrong?
Christ is perfect he is the word, the written record of that word is a work of imperfect men, translated by imperfect men, and copied by hand by imperfect men for over 1000 years. There is error in all the work of man unless you proclaim man to be perfect?
Isaiah 9:6 states that jesus is the son and father. According to Trinity that cannot work. Trinity says the son is not the father and vice verse.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
stonecold474 1 week ago
This is a satanic video. Speaking a lie that's not even in the bible. When god was speaking Us and our. He is speaking to the heavenly host because he is the lord of host. Angels did not create man God alone did. There is no separate persons (Gods) in the oneness of god. Gods name is Jesus and he is the Father, son, and the holy ghost. The 3 are titles not persons. Manifestations of god.
stonecold474 1 week ago
@nepistepa At Rev 3:14 it says that the Word was "the beginning of the creation of God".
Col 1:15 calls Jesus "the firstborn of all creation".
Hence the term "only-begotten son"
Even though the Jews were monotheistic they do have examples of "gods" other than false gods in scripture.
Mose is called a God. Angels are called gods. Israelite judges are called gods
They knew the word elohim was a title that can be applied to any "powerful one". They also knew when it referred to the Almighty
TheCaledonianBoy 1 week ago
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For a true and accurate understanding of both the trinity and immortality of the soul, yahoo search "origin of the trinity" and click on "from paganism to Constantine" and then yahoo search "origin of immortality of the soul" and click on "immortal soul". History and archaeology go hand in hand with biblical teachings and they do not lie. These historians are well known and highly respected historians all the way down to Plato. Be prepared for a very servere shock!!!
badwingduck1 2 weeks ago
@yeyo1228 Many single pagan gods such as Dagon are also referred to in scripture in the plural Elohim.
You said in the early part of the vid that "We have nothing approaching a complete doctrine of the trinity"
Unless you had the trinity in your head in the first place you would not come up with the idea.
How can you say " all three have existed when the bible clearly says that Jesus was created ?
TheCaledonianBoy 1 month ago
@TheCaledonianBoy You wrote "How can you say "all three have existed when the bible clearly says that Jesus was created?" You raise the issue of what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't not say that Jesus was created but that the Word was "IN THE BEGINNING with God" and "became flesh and DWELT AMONG us". St John was one of the Twelve and his gospel says "θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" (either "the Word was a god" or "the Word was God"). How could a Jew believe the Word was a separate God?
nepistepa 1 week ago
For a simple explanation of the Trinity Google this.
Letusmakemaninourimage dot Blogspot dot com
The last prophet choice is yours
hardlyrocketscience 1 month ago
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The Trinity is true because of the co-substantiality of the Immanent and Economic Trinity.Christ's dyotheletism and emhypostasia is clearly taught in the NT.Christ is homoousios as the Father and Spirit who in the kenosis revealed the perichoresis of the three. It is the ad intra and ab extra manifestation that reveals the eternal procession in the notions of the taxis and the ordo salutis which manifests the inner immanence of the Trinity.
Szygyify 3 months ago
God can be compared to the Sun in certain respects. The sun is a sphere of gas. We can only see it's there because it sends us light. We also feel the invisible heat it produces. The Sun's light and warmth are produced within it so it would be wrong to say that they are not as much the Sun as the gas. Yet gas is not light is not heat. Likewise, Jesus is the light by which we see the image of the Father and he brings with him the life-giving Holy Spirit. All are distinct yet all are God.
nepistepa 3 months ago
if the trinity is true than that means that someday satan is going to accomplish something that God could not, trinitarians have no problem admitting that there is one satan, who is the father of lies, the spirit of iniquity who will one day become the son of perdition when he goes and takes up residence inside one man and that one man will be all of satan and he will have one name.
who is more valuable, one person who can do the work of three, or the three persons working together as one?
FREEDOM6427 4 months ago
To be a Dreamer of World, God gave us Imagination as a Talent from God. Then this Talent reveals the Trinity to us, We are one being, our mind sustains a dream, then we enter the dream as an Entity within it, then we happen to see people, places and things, then BEHOLD , we finally see ourselves as a person among the others and we fly like a Spirit and enter that Person as a body and begin to behave a One within One World, within One Mind that sustains it all the while. 3=1
CarmineFragione 5 months ago
@MultiCoreyK
1=1.
lgliggy 6 months ago
i m too stupid to understand this. :(
thfahim 7 months ago
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bro william Branham said that both trinity and oneness are BOTH WRONG!
he said when you get it between oneness and trinity you will get it just exaclty
some of the in between terminology that he used was Jesus was a Dual person, Father and Son were inseperable or yoked together.
God and Christ were in divine fellowship. that is why when Jesus said I have sat down with my Father on His throne yet John only saw ONE sitting upon the throne
dieselcowboy777 9 months ago
@Jesusisposttrib God sent his only son, that mean he did not send himself. Father=god #1 + Son= god #2
gregrutz 10 months ago
@gregrutz
NO trinity - ONLY one GOD -- if I come to you who sent me
LEARN the TRUTH
FOLLOW the TRUTH
click on 2222pauline
under here
2222pauline 8 months ago
trinity is a very difficult concept to understand, even for christians. They try very hard to convince themselves. Pity them. I have heard that long time ago, the pagan elements (pagan gods) were combined to make it easier for pagans to accept christianity, just like they accept pagan holidays and celebrate it as christmas or easter. Pity them
passingthru29771 1 year ago
@passingthru29771
your wrong my friend. I myself do not celebrate ANY holidays, including Christmas or Easter or Thanksgiving, not even my birthday. What happened was that way back, the Roman Empire, heavily influenced by the Catholic Church, expanded its borders and to make pagans easily convert to christianity, they placed "christian" holidays on what were originally pagan days of celebration. to me, holidays have become an excuse to be gluttonous and focus on physical desire.
lgliggy 6 months ago
@Jesusisposttrib This is typical of Mormons. They will stand behind the bible so long as it does not conflict with BoM or D&C. Once it does, it is out of picture. Like the WTS they keep bible only to seem legitemate. The Mormon faith is based totaly on a warm fuzzy feeling from reading BoM. This is why I am being accused of being Pharisee, cause I don't want to have a blind faith. Yet they call us when we accept stuff on faith that they don't like. Seems kind of one sided.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Peter said you will receive the Holy Ghost, here is the how!
"Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." (Acts 8:17)
"And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money," (Acts 8:18)
"Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." (Hebrews 6:2)
CONT
ViCe1986 1 year ago
CONT
"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." (Acts 19:6)
Peter told them that they will receive the Holy Ghost that doesn't mean it is automatic. They will receive it when they have hands laid upon there head and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It helps to read the whole Bible to know what it says!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Your right. Already read the WHOLE bible have you? Not the abridged version that is floating around. This is how the Holy Spirit is passed down. The chain is unbroken! We have zero proof that Smith was ordained, yet we have 120 witnesses to the Holy Spirit comming to the Apostles! And even more to witness to the spread of the faith.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
We also have 500,000 witnesses to the Apostles murder, if you refuse to accept the truth that is your porogative, but know that no Bishop was given any keys from Peter. Only an Apostle can hold the keys to the Kingdom, for Christ is a ORDERED King we does not allow just anyone to take the reigns of his Kingdom.
When a man take the honor of the priesthood (which includes the keys) the Spirit withdraws and man is left to there own devices.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Please show me scripture that says that only an Apostle can hold the keys or that a Bishop is not a successor to the Apostles?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" (Ephesians 2:20)
The Apostles were not a temporary quorum of leaders, without Apostles you have no foundation and you know what happens to a house with out a foundation when the wind and rain beats on it!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 This does not prove that the Bishops can't hold the keys! You need to do better!
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
How is the chain unbroken if there is no Apostles, no Apostles means no Keys, no Keys means any ordinances performed are not valid in heaven.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 You have not shown me scripture that says that only Apostles can hold the keys... it is still your personal opinion.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Ephesians 2:20 is perfect evidence that only Apostles can hold the keys for only Apostles and Prophets are the foudnation of the true Church.
Your problems is you have not faith and demand "proof", there is no proof in faith. There is evidence and testimony. We get evidence of truth through the scriptures and testimony of the truth through sincere prayer.
Only hypocrites like the Pharisees demand proof to believe. This is your choice to make though, I present valid scripture!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Here is the biblical definition of Faith:
Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.
I'm sorry but Eph 2:20 says nothing about the keys. You are reading into that what you want to believe. You believe that faith should be based on a warm fuzzy feeling, and does not have to be reasonable. I believe otherwise. Faith should never contradict reason!
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Joseph is the Prophet of the Restoration, as in all times of past darkness, God called Joseph to restore the light of the Gospel to the world.
He was called and ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood by John the Baptist in 1829 and later that year called and ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood by Peter, James, and John. He used this authority to restore the Church of Jesus Christ on April 6, 1830 as commanded to by Christ.
CONT
8 years later
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 What proof do we have of this? We have eye witness account that Christ ordained the Apostles. What prove do we have of this?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Well the strongest proof is common sense, all offices are filled by ordination. We see this throughout the Bible, so when Christ calls his twelve disciples he ordains them.
While there is nowhere in the New Testament where the words "Christ ordained . . ." appeared in regards to the Twelve. It does say in Matthew 10:1 and Luke 9:1 that he called them and gave them power and authority. The only way to give power and authority is through ordaining them to the priesthood.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Ok... then you are making the assumption that the Apostles never ordained anyone, yet this clearly contradicts scripture where we know that they did. Therefore since they ordianed people to follow them, those people must also have ordiained other, therefore we should see a chain leading all the way back to Christ, unbroken! There is a 1800 year gap between Christ and Smith.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
When did I say they never ordained anyone, cause I have been saying that they did all along. The problem is the Apostles were all killed off by those who persecuted the Church. No a bishop cannot magically become an Apostle because there is no Apostles around this isn't a democracy it is the ordered kingdom of God.
There is no such thing as an unordained succession to the apostleship of Christ's Church, only a man called of God can be ordained to any office of the priesthood.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Boy you are confused... they Ordained men, but did not ordain men? which is it. If they ordained them then they gave them the authority they had. Ignatious in 100 recognizes the Bishops as the successors to the Apostles. We also see a 3 tiered system of Deacon/Preist/Bishop firmly in place by then.
Just for the record why do you trust scripture to be authoritave if the church that decided books was in apostacy?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@ViCe1986
8 years later in the Kirtland Ohio Temple they were visited by Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. Christ bestowed the Keys of the Kingdom to seal and loose, Moses the keys of the gathering of Israel, and Elijah bestowed the keys of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers (as prophesied by Malachi)
This completed the process of called the Restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Where is the proof of this?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Hundreds of eye witnesses, the Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, my testimony from the Holy Ghost that this Church is true.
Where is your "proof" that your bishop received the keys to the kingdom when only an Apostle can hold the Keys?
Your question is loaded and your have no more proof for your beliefs than I, there is no such thing as proof in faith. Proof destroys faith, for you can only have faith in things that are unseen.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 How do you know that the D&C is inspired?
Where does it say that only an Apostle can hold the Keys of the kingdom? I must of missed that in scripture. :-)
There are witnesses to the Gospels, both secular and non-canonical writtings. Also there is no contradictions written. There are however many writings condeming heretical believes, and many of these rejected many of books that became NT (becuase the conflicted with their believes).
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 BTW... Faith without Proof is called blind faith. Christ never called us to this.
Where is the documentation showing the ordination cerimony of Smith?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
The ordination of Smith to the Aaronic Priesthood by the hands of John the Baptist is recorded in the History of the Church
The ordination of Smith to the Melchizedek Priesthood by the hands of Peter, James, and John are also recorded in the history of the Church.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Who were the witnesses? And where is it recorded?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
I just told you this, History of the Church records the restoration of the Priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.
Who are the witnesses to the ordination of any of the Apostles? There is none there ordination is recorded in text but there is never any witness statements attached.
But of course one who knows the Bible so well as you declare would already know that no ordination in the Bible has witness statements with it!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 There were 120 people present when the Holy Spirit desended upon the Apostles and all those present. There were over 2000 people who witnessed Peters first Speach a few minutes later. There was more then 12 persons in the room when Jesus breathed on the Apostles and gave them Authority. There were also many present when Aaron was annointed. Moses proved his authority by preforming signes and bringing the people out of Egypt. So we have plenty of witnesses. Who witnesses Smiths?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" (Ephesians 2:20)
My foundation is on the Apostles of Jesus Christ, which means I am correct.
You are built off the foundation of a bunch of Bishops that not correct according to Ephesians.
I know that the D&C is inspired the same way I know the Bible, BoM, and Pearl of Great Price are inspired.
Through deep study, pondering the message, and prayer!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 This does not prove that a Bishop is not a successor to the Apostles. Keep in mind the office of Apostle is called a Bishopric in Acts 1. So you believe that the Bible, BoM and D&C are inspired because they feel inspired to you?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
And how does one receive the power of theHoly Ghost?
My Bible says that happens by laying on of hands to receive the gift of the holy ghost. Only an properly ordained melkesidek preisthoodholder (the priesthood of Christ) can confer the gift of the holy ghost.
One more remember Christ's house is one of order, you need the proper authority to officers on his behalf. Those men called were killed off and man lost the authority to hold any priesthood office.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 The problem is that they ordained others before they died. Ignatious was ordained by John. Clement and Polycarp by Peter. All of these men lived while the Apostles still lived. Clement was 3 bishop of Rome while John was Bishop of Antioch! Who was replaced with Ignatious when John was arrested and attemped to be executed. So there still is a valid priesthood, it was never lost becuase Christ promised us it would not be.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
No Bishop can hold the keys to the Kingdom! Only an Apostle can hold the keys, a Bishop needs to be directed by an Apostle, not vice versa.
The Bishops receive letters and council from the Apostles and lead local congregations. The reason of Bishops is the fact that 12 Apostles can not be in every congregation in every city every Sabbath Day!
A Bishop has absolutely no authority outside his congregation and even then he has no authority except though the Apostles who hold the Keys
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 I need prove that only an Apostle can hold the keys. And I need this from scripture, if you can't provide it, you can't make that assumption. So provide scriptural proof that bishops are not the successors to the Apostles, when Acts 1 calles the offices of Apostle a Bishopric!
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Yes they never pass away hey are not always on the Earth though.
Christ is alive but is not on the Earth, so is God.
Also see Amos 12 about the famine of the words of the Lord.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Amos 12?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Sorry iPhone screwed it up Amos 8:12
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 I will have to do some more research on this... but a quick reading leads me to believe this is talking about destruction of temple in 70AD.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
How does a temples destruction have anything to do with a famine of the word of god?
A temple is a building, loss of it is a terrible thing but rememer that there was only the tabernacle for hundreds of years.
The loss of the word of god is great apostasy that came from the wickedness of the people in Amos time. The point is that wicked people who reject the chosen leaders of god create a famine of the word of god.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Christ says this to Peter because he knew Jesus was the son of god by revelation read matthew 16:15-17.
The word rock is a play on the name Peter in Greek, Peter is the rock because of his revelation.
Besides that you are right Peter held the keys and those keys were lost when he was crusified by Nero. No apostles not truth see Ephesians 4
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 However scripture is quite clear that the apostles passed on their authority to others. And that this authority was never lost. Becuase God promised us it would not be.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
If they passed it on where are the modern apostles?
The keys cannot be passed to any one only one properly called and ordained. Christ didn't call apostles to then pass the power of the kingdom to some random bishop that isn't even recorded in any historical textboutaode the RCC
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 There are modern apostles all over the world! Consider what Ignatious of Antioch wrote in 107AD. To Trallians
Surely, when you submit to the bishop as representing Jesus Christ, it is clear to me
that you are not living the life of men, but that of Jesus Christ, who died for us, that
through faith in His death you might escape dying. It is needful, then--and such is your
practice--that you do nothing without your bishop;
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 cont but be subject also to the presbytery as representing the Apostles of Jesus Christ, our hope, in whom we are expected to live forever. It is further necessary that the deacons, the dispensers of the mysteries of Jesus Christ, should win the approval of all in every way; for they are not
dispensers of food and drink, but ministers of a church of God. Hence they must be on
their guard against criticism, as against fire.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
There is only one problem with your incorrect assumption "And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. " (Hebrews 5:4)
Aaron was called by God and ordained by laying on of hands to a priesthood office by one holding the proper authority. Peter never passed his authority and no one was properly ordained to carry on in his stead.
A bishop is a local leader and an apostle is a high leadership. Only apostles can hold the keys of the kingdom.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Right in Acts Peter declares Apostles an Office.
Acts 1:20. For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.
26. And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Acts 6:6. These they set before the apostles; and they praying, imposed hands upon them.
It is clear from acts that laying of hands was done by Apostles.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Yes no apostles mean no ordinations, which means no true church.
The lose to the apostles mean the world was without te ability to act on Gifs behalf and receive revelation.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986
I Tim 4:14. Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
I Tim 5:22. Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men's sins. Keep thyself chaste.
2 Tim 1:6. For which cause I admonish thee, that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee, by the imposition of my hands.
Paul here is warning Timothy (a presbitory he ordained) to be carefull who he ordains.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 We can see a clear succession following Apostles into succeding Bishops. So much so that Irenaous in 180AD lists the Bishops of Rome becuase that is the most important Church. He lists them going back to Peter! We have an unbroken chain of documents that can lead us right back to the Apostles and their believes.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Christ gave the keys of the kingdom to the apostles, there office and there office alone holds the keys. When they were lost to the world so was the keys. No keys means no authority to officate in any office.
A bishop from Rome renamed the Pope cannot hold the keys to the kingdom ever. Only an apostle can hold the keys.
If Jesus wanted the keys to be held by a bishop he would of bestowed it to a bishop. He didn't though he bestowed it to an Apostle, his house is one of order.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 However if Apostile is an office as scripture says, then another can take the place when that person dies. Bishop comes from Greek worked Episcopos, or Overseer. Peter calls the office of Apostle Overseer in Acts 1! If another can take the place, then the number of apostles can also expand as the need grows. Paul was an apostle, yet he never met Jesus when he was alive. How could Paul become an Apostle unless one of the Apostles ordained him!
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Exactly Paul was ordained an apostle by an apostle. No one claims that the Pope is an Apostle he is the Bishop of Rome, he doesn't hold the proper office to hold the keys of the kingdom.
Just like a President can make a mayor his successor, the proper office holder (in this case the VP, in the churches case another Apostle) can take the the office. no apostles = no authority
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 However this is not the believe of those that followed the Apostles. Ignatuous said to follow the Bishops as you would the Apostles. The Pope is the Prime Minister. Go look up the function of Prime minister in ancient kingdoms. He held all authority during kings absences. And this was an Office, if the person died, another would take his place. Generaly choosen from the other ministers under the king. This would occur even in kings absence.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
The King isn't absent though silly! Christ lives and reigns over the true Church so any Church claiming the priesthood and not being lead by Apostles cannot be correct.
Christ is not absent he sent the Holy Ghost to reveal the will of the Father to us. When the apostles died off the heavens were closed because there was no more proper priesthood leaders and the Keys were lost to mankind.
CONT
ViCe1986 1 year ago
CONT
The reason why a monarch would leave a steward or prime minister behind in there stead is because there is no way in ancient times to communicate to the King so he can make important decisions in his kingdom while off at war or suing for peace.
Christ Church stands on the rock of revelation, so if the revelations stop (aka the communication) that means you have a house built on sand and it is toppled by the waves.
No Revelation = No Apostles = No Church
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Only the Mormons claim that there leaders recieve private revelation. The King is not physicaly communicating will us right now. Besides the fact there there is nothing more to communicate, the laws don't change. So if your church adds new stuff (polygamy, becomming gods etc) you need to be very wary of that. Also private revealtion can't contradict public revealation!
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 without the Church how do we even know that scripture is valid? There is no table of contents other then what the publisher puts in to the best of my knowledge. If there is no Church then the LDS can't be the church either. We are let with nothing. I can't beleive Christ would totaly abandon us.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Christ never abandoned anyone, many men felt the presence of Christ during the Great Apostasy. The Apostasy removes the authority to act in the name of God from the Earth and the heavens are closed to man so we cannot receive revelation, but man is not abandoned Christ never abandons those who look for him.
Those who looked form him found pieces that lead them to believe that the Church they had was not complete.
CONT
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 What is the date of this Great Apostasy and over what doctrine did it occur?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
A great apostasy is the loss of the priesthood leadership on the Earth in this case the loss of the Apostles around 100 AD.
No ordained leaders means no protection from false teachings. Any creeds that originate after the apostolic era are man made and are the result of Apostasy.
Apostasy effects almost all doctrine, since without the ordained leadership from God the false teachers can freely corrupt the teachings like they were trying to before the death of the apostles.
CONT
ViCe1986 1 year ago
CONT
Any traditions started by non apostolic authority is not complete truth, only Apostles guided by God have the authority and power to make doctrine and start traditions in Christ's Church.
Doctrine such as the Trinity, Infant Baptism, Indulgences, Creato ex Nihlo, Transubstantiation, Papal infallibility, the Papacy, non immersion baptism, ect
All these things were made with best interest in mind but without proper authority from God to make such doctrine they are invalid in God's eyes.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 However we have proof from scripture that the Apostles did Ordain men. They used term laying on of Hands rather than ordain but this does not mean much.
BTW Each one of these doctrines you mentioned can be traced straight to scripture. If you would like to I can go over each one in private... it is too involved in posts.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Traced to the scripture (and no none of these have any scriptural backing at all) not from the scripture see if you take a verse here and a verse there you can make make incest into a doctrine if you so desire.
Your are a wicked man in try and say that buying your way into heaven through the satanic practice of the RCC called indulgences is a Biblical practice!
Your lies are your own undoing, indulgences it the work of Satan in the RCC
CONT
ViCe1986 1 year ago
CONT
You put your faith in men who slap the savior in the face by destroy his teachings that wealth is a burden to your eternal soul by even suggesting that the vile practice of the Papacy to let the rich buy redemption is scriptural!
This discussion if done sir, I don't toss my pearls to swine that believe men can buy heaven!
Learn you Bible and repent of your wicked ways!
I pray for you brother!
God Bless your poor deceived soul, that believes men can purchase eternal life!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Your running away becuase you can provide any proof?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ViCe1986 Now the insults start when you can't prove your position.
The Church has not nor has it ever taught we can buy or earn our way into heaven. She has always taught salvation is a free Gift. It can't be earned. You obviously have no clue what an indulgence is if you believe you are earning your way into heaven by them.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 The problem here is that I see no change in doctrines at this time. I see many heretical groups, however these are being called out. I have found no change in teaching since day one.
I also have found no evidence that Smith was ordained by anyone let alone Christ. Far as I know this happend in private between Christ and him.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
CONT
People throughout the period of time we refer to as the Great Apostasy were looking for Christ and sought his will over the will of men.
The most notable was Martian Luther the Catholic Priest who is the founder of protestantism, and there are many others who sought to find the fullness of Christ knowing through divine inspiration that something was missing.
These reformers, theologians, philosophers, all lead the way for the restoration to happen in 1830.
Christ never abandons us!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 How can they have lead the way if the Chruch was apostate. That would mean that Smith was just another one of the reformers who continued to change doctrine.
I want the date for this Great Apostacy so I can research it... none can give me one. If not a date, give me a change in doctrine that occured.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
No a reformer changes what he has already through the logic and reasoning of men, a restorer bring it back to it's original condition through the power of God.
The Protestant reformations were an important step to allow religious freedom (before that the Catholic Church tended to murder anyone who they didn't like so a restoration was impossible at those times), the creation of the printing press, and the founding of the United State were important steps that led up to the restoration
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Actualy the reformers changed things to fit their believes. They changed what was always taught. And they brought about private interpretation of scripture which has resulted in anarchy! Meanwhile the Church did reform herself and fix bad practices. Practices not teachings! People were not following what she taught.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
There is nothing more to communicate???
Are your ignorant or just plain stupid?
How about internet pornography, the nature of marriage, the growing secularism of the world, teenage pregnancy, cell phones, televisions, movies, ect
There are plenty of things that the guidance of the Lord is needed for in the modern days.
How did we receive the law in the first place? REVELATION!!!!
Now my God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow!
Guess your's isn't?
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Correct I agree we need a reliable interpreture for scripture from day one. Scripture does not interpret itself. You are saying that Christ did not provide us one until Smith. This means that Christ abandoned us between 33AD and 1840ishAD. But you say he did not abandon us, this is very confusing. Either he did or he did not which one do you choose?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Where does the bible talk about internet? Or cell phones? of television? or condoms? or equal rights for women? or equal rights for minorities?
Your would rather have imperfect men interpret a book that discuses nothing of modern controversies, to find the will of God.
Well I will go right to the source through the living Apostles, like Abraham, Isaac, and Israel I wish to know the will of my God for me this day not yesterday!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 However we have no proof that the LDS church is the current living Apostles. Many can claim, but they can't trace themselves back to Christ in 33AD.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
We have the fruits of the Prophet of the Restoration, The Book of Mormon. Test his fruits to see if they are good and you will know that his successors are the Apostles of Jesus Christ like I do.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 How do we know that the BOM Is inspired?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Our members receive personal revelation and our Apostles (as the holder of the keys to the kingdom) recieve revelation pertaining to the Church and the entire world.
Personal revelations to each members deal with important decision in there own life and are private and not discussed unless the member feels like sharing.
All of our Church leadership's revelations for the Body of Christ and the world are never private though.
These are told upon the hilltops to the entire world!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Well yes it is possible for a person to recieve personal revealation. However public revealation must not contradict what has already been taught. Smith contradicted 1800 years of teaching. Note personal revealation is only binding on individual.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
These men are not ordained to make these teachings so there teachings are false teachings and a Prophet was called to restore the original truth, the truth of the Gospel, to the Earth.
1800 years of uninspired teachings is just that uninspired and flawed reasoning of men. Most of which was never changed (since there teachings are of God) like that black eye of Catholicism, indulgences which to this day is a recognized doctrine of the RCC.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 This does not make sense... what were they ordained for if not to teach what the apostles taught?
BTW.. there is nothing wrong with indulgences... they are very scriptural. However they require a Catholic understanding of salvation to understand. They will make no sense to Mormon.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Show me one verse in the bible where God, Christ, or even an Apostle promises that the authority of God will never be lost to mankind again?
I have never seen a single verse that says this to the early Christian Church, in fact I see the opposite the Apostles warn of false teachings and wolves in sheep's clothing that are circling the church and filling it with untrue things.
The OT is a cycle of apostasy and restoration, look at the falls and returns of Israel.
CONT
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986
John 14:26. But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
The paraclete will John 16:8. And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment.
Jesus promised the paraclete to the Apostles, this they passed on via the laying on of hands. This was to prevent apostacy.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
Yes, APOSTLES pass the Holy Ghost! Apostles! That's the key word Apostles not bishops. No Apostles = no companionship of the Holy Ghost.
All gifts of the spirit dies off with the destruction of the apostleship!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Who did they Pass the Holy Ghost onto?
If what you say is true then Christ lied about not being with us until the end of time.
If his Church when apostate then you mean that he lied about the gates of hell not prevaling against it.
If there was no church how do you know you have correct bible?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Well if you look at verse 16-17 you see this rock is Peter (in Greek Peter and rock are both called petros, so it is a play on words) guided by revelation from God. Hence revelation cannot be overcome by death or hell. revelation ended with the apostles though.
You speak of Christ being the rock, that's fine but that means that This verse has nothing to do with a church or the bible but foretells that Christ will overcome death and resurrect.
CONT
ViCe1986 1 year ago
CONT
Either way you loom at it Matt 16:18 does not say at all that the Church cannot fall into apostasy.
Remember that Christ's house is one of order, remove the chosen leadership you lose the authority to act on his and his father's behalf.
No apostles = No true Church = Great Apostasy
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Well, see that the point, in reality eternal is just that eternal it doesn't change so keep your false god who changes from god to man and back to god!
I'll keep praising the Son of the One True God in the Flesh Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today, and forever!
God Bless!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
So at first you say he changed from God to man, now when confronted with your obvious mistake you say he never changed and ignore the contradiction of that statement to the previous?
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
The Jews and Romans did stop the Church, the killed all the Apostles and left the world without the Keys to the Kingdom, ending the priesthood authority of God and diving the world into another period of Great Apostasy.
The Romans don't debate they kill, so they have no need to discredit the teachings of some Jew.
The Jews have no need to discredit what they consider to be the teachings of a heretic that was crucified for blasphemy.
Your argument makes no sense at all.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Did Jesus lie in Matt 16:18 when he said that the Gates of hell would not prevail? Did the spirit of truth leave them and stop guiding the to all truth?
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
The gates of hell (hades or death) did not prevail against the rock. But what is the Rock that Christ speaks of?
He tells us that the rock is revelation in the previous verses, Peter knew Christ was the Son of God not by reason or logic but through the revelation of God.
Revelation is the rock that death cannot overcome, and when there is no revelations there is no true Church.
So no, Christ did not lie, he said that revelation is rock to build on, and only that!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Hmmm this does not make sense. Becuase he changed Simon Johnson's name to Rock. If you look at the flow, Jesus follows the same flow. Whether we want to say he built his Church on Peters Faith or Peter himself we could debate. However we know Peter did not have strong faith. Therefore I would have to think he built it on Peter. Also note he gave Peter unpressidented power with the authority to bind and loose!
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@kgxxx10
I wouldn't call Peter weak in faith he was the only apostle that had the faith to recieve the revelation that Christ is the Son of God.
Yes, he denied Christ 3 times in one night but this was forgiven and Christ even told him that it would happen.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 The Apostles as a whole were an interesting bunch. They show us that Christ did not build his church on holy perfect men. But men who are not always right. However the Holy Spirit was sent to protect them from teaching error. Read commisioning of Peter in John 21:15-17. This has even deeper meaning if you know the greek. However he is being commissioned to be a shepard of the flock. He is prime minister. Compare Matt 16 first half, with Isa 22 second half.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
It's funny that you can ignore the web of lies you spin about the nature of God, a Bible without error (and back it up with proof that cannot exist!), and have the gall to attack my faith instead of admit your own mistakes and misconceptions!
I guess if you can't make God into what you want him to be then just deny the truth!
It works and if that is what you wish I am happy for you my brother, I just wish that you continue prayerful study of the Holy Bible!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 The bible is actualy very well preserved. We also have quotes from it existing in other sources which we can use to determine correct renderings of the text. Besides true christainity is not based on one verse or two, but the bible as a whole. Considering the percecusions the early church when through It is not supprising we lack true manuscripts. However with BOM we lack original gold plates less then 200 years after it was written. I find the pretty convienent! We can't check them.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Also tell me where Christ tells us to make a graven image of a cross to be a Christian?
My bible says "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" (Exodus 20:4)
You can keep the modern version of Aaron's Golden Calf, I will stick to the word of God!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 However have you read a couple chapters later where God commands the construction of the temple? THere are images all over the place!!!!! Including things on heaven and earth. The key point here is we are not to worship these as Gods. However we are physical creatures and these symbols help us to remember things. God also commanded Moses to make a brazen serpant and the poeple were to look up to it! Prefigureing the cross.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kgxxx10
So you are saying God commands us to make crosses and put them every where.
PS a building aka a temple or tabernacle is not a graven image, a graven image is a statue or statuette.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Making images is not the problem. It is worshiping them as God that is the problem. People today worship money, celebraties etc... this is what God does not want us to do. Satues are not a problem. He did not command the serpent staff to be destroyed until the poeple started to worship it.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
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@Jesusisposttrib
Well once more I read the Bible and it tells me "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." (Romans 8: 17-18)
Joint-heir might have a different meaning to you but in my opinion it means all Christ inherits I inherit also.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Note here Phil 2:6. Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Christ did not think being equal with God was something we should strive for.
However Peter says 2 Pet 1:4. By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.
We will not become God, but somehow take part in it. Don't ask what this will be like.
kgxxx10 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
You say he is the same yesterday, today, and forever then says he changes from God to man in the same sentence! LOL
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Wait so in your world Jesus Christ changes?!?!?
My Bible says "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8)
I'll take the Bible Jesus the is the same always over your changing Jesus.
Thanks for the offer but I like sticking to the truth!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
That's impressive that manuscripts existed before they were written down! The theological community (you know those guys that spend there entire life studying the Bible) says the NT was just was just beginning to be recorded between 65 and 72 AD (meaning your library was abandoned while they started to record or before the scrolls were written) and not finished till as late ad 150 AD are all liars and you are right?
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Congratulations you finally accept the truth Jesus is Jehovah and he submits to the will of his Father Elohim.
They are united in power, purpose, and spirit but are two separate exalted beings with the Father as supreme over all!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Christ is God but that doesn't make him supreme only the father is supreme.
The scriptures say this repeatedly, there power is equal there status is equal but Christ submits to the Father.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
If it was exactly the same it wouldn't be ignored by every ecclesiastical body in Christianty. No denomination of Christianity accepts the dead sea scrolls as cannon because there are differences between the DSS and the Bible.
Can you ever tell the truth about anything?
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Wow, so not you not only ignore God word, change it regularly to fit your design, destroy the supreme nature of God the Father, but now you are without sin since you have the audacity to judge me as if you have no sin!
You are why people call honest God fearing Christians like me hypocrites, you give Christ and his honest followers bad names.
You distort the truth and love doing so, you hate, and you are far from the straight and narrow because you hate!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Once more it must be nice to make up scripture and ignore the word of God! That make faith so much easier!!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Only one changing the Bible is you, while the Holy Bible isn't inerrant (unless Christ was never born) that doesn't make it false either just a written record of a perfect God made by the hands of imperfect men.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Well this one track mind will follow the pea brains Paul, Amos, and Christ.
Continue to make up your own faith anti christ that makes God into a compulsive liar who is mentally ill and has multiple personalities and natures!
I'll stick with my One True God who is almighty and perfect and sent his Only Begotten Son to save me! I will worship him and only him and put no other gods (especially psychotic made up ones) before him like he commands me to in Exodus 20:3
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986
Your Statement:The bible is good as long as it is translated correctly,So you don't know which leader said this, which also means that it is possible that no LDS leader said this. Without evidence or proof your statement is a blatant lie. No LDS leader ever made this statement and I personally guarantee that to be truth . I invite you to prove me wrong here and achieve your victory over the "wicked Mormon"!
Its your eighth arlicle of faith by Joseph Smith,Why are you still talking?
guydudeman100 1 year ago
@guydudeman100
Wow you wicked liar. Do you know no shame at all?
Here is your statement you bigot: the bible is the Word of God as long as it doesent contradict with any of the teachings of Joseph Smith or Brigham young or whoever your leaders are
Here is the 8th Article of Faith: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
CONT
ViCe1986 1 year ago
CONT
If you can only respond by lying about your previous lies then there is nothing else to talk about really. Keep your satanic hate pent up in your heart and lie through your teeth like you consistently do here but the truth of the Restored Gospel always drives away the darkness of your falsehoods.
The 8th Article of Faith does not say the bible is correct how J.S. says or anything of the sort, but in your wickedness you will simply ignore your lies and continue on.
CONT
ViCe1986 1 year ago
CONT
Your statement is false I challenged it as untrue then you lie to cover up a lie! Not the acts of a honest Christian if you ask me!
The Bible is the word of God as far as men have not made errors in recording, translating, and interpreting it. Since there is thousands of interpretations of the bible there is obvious error otherwise there wouldn't be thousands of Churches but one unified Church as Christ wanted.
You are a wolf in sheep's clothing and I expose your falsehoods.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Dont lie like a coward because you have been caught in your lie:
eighth article of faitht:We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly
I say what that really means is:the bible is the Word of God as long as it doesent contradict with any of the teachings of Joseph Smith or Brigham young or whoever your leaders are
after that you said I was putting words into your mouth,I said they were not your words but Joseph Smiths
guydudeman100 1 year ago
@guydudeman100
See that's your problem you can't read truth without having to change it I to your satanic lies.
As far as correctly translated means just that, and nothing more just like Christ repeated warning to worship the father ate just that.
Take your man made faith, I'll keep the truth that is preserved and protected from false teachers like you by the modern Apostles of Jesus Christ.
I thank God each day for Apostles to defend truth from evil men lime you!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 then you swore out and gave me your guarantee that no lds leader ever said that,you just thought of that all by yourself.I exposed your lie,by proving that statement is the eight article of faith by Joseph Smith:
your statement:Without evidence or proof your statement is a blatant lie. No LDS leader ever made this statement and I personally guarantee that to be truth . I invite you to prove me wrong here and achieve your victory over the "wicked Mormon"!
I proved you a lying coward
guydudeman100 1 year ago
@guydudeman100
Well you must follow the if I lie enough somone will belies it cause you have yet to tell the truth.
Well in your twisted mind you rewrite the 8th Article of Faith to say what you want it to say.
The rest of the world reads the truth, you seek to live in a sea of lies that you make up as you go.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 Now thats exactly what happened and you know it,dont you dare try to misrepresent me.Im sorry you took offense to my comment about the bible being good as far as it is translated correctly.But that was not your statement and you lied about it,youve already done a diservice to your false religion by being caught in a lie.
If you dont hold the bible to be completly true there is only so much I can say to you,I think the bible is the word of God,you think the book of mormon(dumb) is
guydudeman100 1 year ago
@guydudeman100
Truth check: you say I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. THAT'S A LIE!
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." 8th Article of Faith of
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Also note that there is nothing about Joseph Smith and Brigham Youngs "interpretations" mentioned here. Only you seek to "interpret" things that are straight forward.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 No you dont believe the bible is the word of God,you may say you do,and you may even think you do,but if you did you wouldnt you wouldnt believe the book of mormon to be the word of God.There is only one word of God and that is the bible.Nowhere in the bible was anyone commanded to write another book,in fact you were commanded not to in Rev 22:18,19.So I say woe to your lying false prophet Joseph Smith,for doing just that and misleading you
guydudeman100 1 year ago
@guydudeman100
Yes there is one word of God, Jesus Christ. The Bible is a record of Christ written by ancient prophets (a simple person like you thinks it is a book but it is 66 books) the BoM is a record of Christ written by ancient prophets.
Only one of little faith puts there faith in a written record over the loving word of God, Jesus Christ.
Also anyone with two brains cells know that Rec 22:18 says "this book of prophecy" which is revelation not the entire Bible.
Good lies though!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 I dont know everything you believe, I know you accept the book of Mormon,and that makes you false,you dont hold the bible to be completly true,I can show you something in the bible and you will just say well thats wrong because it wasnt translated properly,if you accepted the bible as the word of God you would not add to it with some book of mormon,or any other false book,the bible says not to even greet someone who brings another teaching.so maybe I should stop talking to you
guydudeman100 1 year ago
@guydudeman100
Also, how dare you claim to know what I believe or do not believe. You don't know me and only a really big false teacher could be so filled with hate and arrogance.
I accept the Bible as the word of God as far as it is correctly translated, I also accept the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Cpveanants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the inspired words of the loving apostles as the word of God.
Most importantly I accept Jesus Christ as the Word!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
Comment removed
guydudeman100 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 What hate are you talking about,I dont hate you,I really feel sorry for you,because your leader Joseph Smith was a false prophet,and a racist at that.He was too much of a coward to stick to the bible so he wrote the book of Moron,the bible warned about false prophets claiming to see some revelation from God,or claiming some authority from him,its why I left the one I was in.Now I can spot a false Teacher a mile away and buddy you are false.waiting on your hateful reply fool of insults
guydudeman100 1 year ago
@guydudeman100
Well at least your consistent! You speak as if you know my or my faith and lie and slander my faith in Christ just as you do for the Prophet Joseph Smith.
It takes a lot of hate to lie and slander in my opinion hence why you in my opinion are not a follower of Christ.
Unlike you though I will disagree with your interpretations, I will rebuke your false teachings and present my evidence against them with explanation (which you haven't done once),
CONT
ViCe1986 1 year ago
CONT
Your faith in Christ I will never attack though, you the have the right to observe your faith as you please.
Your practices and beliefs are not biblical but only a wicked person can think they are so perfect to judge anothers faith in Christ like you feel entitled too.
Your web of lies have caught you several times and for one that lies of having insults thrown at them you are quick to call me a lying coward. They call that being a hypocrite sir and Christ rebukes hypocrites.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@ViCe1986 You say I havent presented evidence,after all the scriptures ive shown you.This one scripture proves the foundation of your religion false,2nd Timothy 3:16,ALL scripture is inspired of GOD.The bible is protected by God because its his word and he will not allow anyone to make him out to be a liar.You should think better of God than you do,your religion is blasphemy,teaching that God would allow this to happen.Ive shown where the bible says not a single letter would be removed mat:5:18
guydudeman100 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
And the king of pea brains and morons Jesus Christ who said "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (Matthew 7:15-16)
Your ignorance of my faith in Christ and my knowledge of the Bible is only superseded by your own ignorance of Christ and his teachings.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Better include the pea brain Paul who said "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;" (Ephesians 4:14)
We all know how little Paul's faith was, he had absolutely no faith at ALL (right?)
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
I guess Amos is a pea brained moron who doesn't have faith in God either since he says "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: 12And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." (Amos 8:11-12)
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
And you are an anti Christ since you rather follow the hate of the devil instead of the Christ who loves and cherishes all and would never call anyone moron or pea brained for disagreeing with him.
So take your sins and be gone or repent and rejoin a civilized discussion.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
The dead sea scrolls do not do that at all they are not the exact same as the Holy Bible there are differences, plus the dead sea scrolls are not accepted by any faith as scripture so even if they were exactly the same the point is moot since they are not accepted as scripture by anyone at all.
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
The only fulfilled prophecies of the Bible are the Old Testament prophecies for Christ which only proves Christ and those prophecies true.
The Torah was not mass copied by hand like the New Testament only Priest were allowed to keep this record so it was far less susceptible to copy error and it was never translated into another language by the Jews eliminating translation error.
The OT also foretells of total apostasy and the restoration of truth in the latter days!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Well my bible teaches man has free will, guess yours teaches man has free will except when it pertains to the translation and copying of the Holy Bible then they have no free will and God violates his own law to personally guarantee that a volume of books is never changed whatsoever!
Take your false teachings and preach to some fool who does not know Elohim the mighty God of Israel and his anointed one, his Only Begotten Son , The GREAT I AM, Jesus Christ!
learn truth!
ViCe1986 1 year ago
@Jesusisposttrib
Yes, and where did he say that the written record of his word is completely unable to be wrongly translated or misinterpreted, or copied wrong?
Christ is perfect he is the word, the written record of that word is a work of imperfect men, translated by imperfect men, and copied by hand by imperfect men for over 1000 years. There is error in all the work of man unless you proclaim man to be perfect?
ViCe1986 1 year ago