is christianity already relativistic with its interpretations and different sects after the schism that martin luther brought? You christians talk of relativism yet still hold to it in a different way. Is there such a thing as objective christianity?
The type of post-modernism you are responding to is easily destroyed because it isn't the position held by any po-mo. Why not attempt a response to some actual discourses within so-called post-modernism?
These guys are trying to articulate what has obviously happend to the church in America and shout a warning. So many preachers who have no business preaching have made a living and in the process deccimated the church with nonsense. I am angry at them, and I have pity on them at the same time.
I think postmodernist Christians exists because they are afraid of confronting the so called "objective truth" claims (which are irrational & has no epistemological value) made by "modernist" Christians. Postmodernist Christianity is all about political correctness. They dont want to call it like it is. Besides, if they do so, they would have to quit being Christians because their own postmodernist Christianity would get the same judgement. That's why there are so many ex-Christian atheists.
I find it tragically funny & ridiculously hypocritical when Christians criticize "postmodernist Christianity" and its views on "truth", when the TRUTH is that theology has NO epistemological value whatsoever: it provides no evidence AT ALL, its arguments R logically flawed & usually, lack scientific literacy. They should have more respect 4 the only ALLY they have against rationality & science. After all, they always end up hiding behind the solipsism of religious faith.
Doctrine, beliefs and faith should be able to withstand questioning and thorough study. We need to seek truth instead of defending what we've been taught as truth.
Many false teachers are siding with the builders holding to the old covenant. wolves! These men support the modern jewish state and call it biblical, lies and deception, Stand with Christ alone and not a man apart, You may be standing with magog, you maybe working with satan who in turn helps their world wide ministries. Yeshua is Lord
im sorry that i cannot put in to words what is in my heart, there is so much on this issue. Please watch yt page fuelproject vid know your enemy. Tracing the masonic influence throughout history with its roots in babylon and the fallen angels that they worshipped. How the symobolgy seen in architecture and in the layout of vatican and the pentagram on un flag etc it all ties in with the NWO for one religion and control
this "new" church doctrine is nothing more than an aim to deceive the christians into a warm and fuzzy PC religion. Many will be deceived and go that way, and ultimately deny the deity of christ, as this is that driving forces aim. That all religons and people embrace the earth and eosoteric masonic angel worship under a one world religon, this outbreak of the christian church is just the first step in bringing them all together. Notice Muslim and catholic meetings,
things that take away from and undermine the God Head and deity of Jesus Christ is NOT of christ. BEWARE of this new type religion as the true roots are in masonic rituals. All religons are being attacked by this watering down of their theology in order to form a new world religon. Christians HEAD UP ! now is the time to STAND See yt know your enemy it is on page fuelproject, i would say essential viewing for all faiths
Protestantism is the catalyst for post-modernism, so these men talking about the problem of PM are only talking about what their tradition gave to the world. So who are they really fighting, themselves, or the many offshoots they gave birth to?
The telling aspect of this video is the confusion of these men as to why the "emergent" church has developed. Yes, there is the influence of post modernism, but there is also the culture of the church, which is FULL of elements directly responible for this so-called emergence. No admission of responsibility for such a thing exists here, and that is a huge piece of the problem. The church has dismally failed in its own ability to correct itself.
@denoinwa true in some ways, but essentially as a believer in Jesus Christ who is God, that cannot be watered down no matter how PC it may be to aim for peace with those who sin. The sin of sexual depravity is in no uncertain terms outlawed by God and is an abomination in his sight. So we know this, but society is bit by bit pushing for that aspect to be overlooked. We would be condemned at the moment verbally, for a stand against those sins.
I think there is an absolute truth, but you won't be punished for failing to see it. Doxastic voluntarism has been shown completely false and so I think post modernists have been trying to find a way to deal with those who aren't predisposed to see the truth.
The pernicious thing about Biblical fairy tales is their inherent supposition that without mythological beasts threatening us we would all be murderers, thieves, and rapists. Most people in prison are devoutly religious. Most atheists are well-educated and law-abiding. What does that tell you?
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
Because I know Him. I have the nature of Christ and the Holy Spirit inside of me. Anyone who is a true believer has the mind of Christ. Besides, I am not fallen any more. I was in Adam, but now I am in Christ. The biggest lie of the church today is that you cannot trust your heart...I know...I know...the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked! Exactly-pre Christ this is true. Not true anymore my friend. Jesus makes all things new. I have a new nature and a new heart.
The love of Christ is, in fact, enough. Truth will always come out of love. Modern Christianity is mostly sin-management. The assumption is made that God is not awesome enough on His own to love. We have to scare people into believing. Fear has never and can NEVER produce genuine love. Perfect love casts out fear. The one who fears is not perfected in love. I don't sense much love in these "experts" in their suits. They strike me as the kind of people whom Jesus would have termed Pharisees.
What irritates me about your position (and Rob Bell's) is that you make tremendous presumptions on the the character of God.
So tell me, how do you know what true love or justice really is? what moral foundation do you stand on to judge whether your version of 'love' is really the same as Gods version?
What moral foundation (as a fallen human being) do you have other than your own opinions and experience?
How can you as a fallen human being 'judge' what a good God can or can't do?
I think the bottom line in emergent church thinkers is that they really did not accept the Bible or the Gospel as being literally true and their experience has not happened to participate in believing so they modify it to their likings. They like being in the position of God because of a lack of faith or belief. these people probably did not receive true conversion to Christ
I would love to hear Mohler's answer to the last sentence. If anyone is well read on him, do you have an idea of how he would have answered his proposed question?
@magikkell I guess I understand/expect that.. but with the example he brought up (which is a tough one) about having two homosexuals in his office asking what they're going to do, he says Christianity does have an answer, but this video cuts off I guess from the answer he would probably say to them. ..Unless his answer is just flatly, "Welp, you're gay. It's not what God intended. Don't be one anymore. Good luck to you." I'm asking because it's a really tough situation for us Christians.
@magikkell And I think we need to be able to respond better to these critical issues of our time aside from just saying "homosexuality is wrong." I think that route is too simplistic and creates pretty intense barriers. These are deep, complex issues. To toss them aside with fire and pitty to just say, "you're wrong, fix yourself, then come to Jesus." I think the Biblical and Christian response need to be the fact that Christ IS the healer. We come to him broken. We don't fix ourselves.
I get what you are saying. I just researched this topic to put together a sermon on homosexuality for an apologetic preaching class. I would basically say that the "being that way" or "being born that way" is not a valid reason to act that way. I am a born procrastinator, but if I "live out my nature" of procrastination I will lose my wife, flunk out of school, and move into my mom's basement and play World of Warcraft 18 hours a day. That is my nature, but that is not my calling.
Its very sad to read the above comments of funboy n mypolicy9 they have probably had a harsh encounter with hard liners who show no grace. but I would say to them God is a gracious God who is full of mercy n compassion we have all sinned and fallen short of God's plan for us but he extends the had of love and friendship to all who will come. However, if you do not come to meet him as a compassion saviour u will meet him as a judge
No. they never knew him. but they were bored with the dead aridity of a doctrinal and creedal system which was not in fact believed by the likes of us, as seen by our fruit.
that is to say WE the carnal orthodox, encouraged them to reject doctrine, because all we had was doctrine, and not the reality that doctrine purports to.
emergent is pure heresy but we are the pharisees and hypocrites that spawned them . so let us not point the finger too vigourously
funboy7979=bumpyjjeans=walterglanz=bc9021010000=freestuffff=adamcortes=mmmmmrazor=jupiterdingo=tonzimala=zoooooperdoooooper and there are more
They are all the same person. They all post on the same videos, click the "like" button on their comments, have disabled their channels, flag as spam those who disagree with his trollish ways.
Dang. 35 seconds in, and dude had already covered nearly every base in the falsities of Rob Bell's "Love Wins", and the "Emergent" theology behind it. That's what I call a confirmation!
@jesseplume the purpose of why they are meeting is in the title. Why would someone go and spend their evening there to listen to them if they didn't already believe the basic core truth's of what the speaker's believe?
I really like how these guys talk about the church and its current state of affairs but never once in this entire speech used Scripture to back it up. Only using theological terms and big words. The final truth about any Christianly doctrine or theology is and should always be Christ died for ALL sin from killing to drunkenness and by forming a relationship with him we are set free to live a life of grace and peace not bound by Calvinism or whateverism. All Scripture points to grace!!!
@Junboy7979, @Bumbyjeans. Will you guys please STOP blaiming the "topoic" as the cause for bullying!!!! christianity does not casuing hating on gays! Poeple can still CHOOSE how to respond, We can CHOOSE to obey what we are taught. Chrsitianity NEVER says kill gays! Jesus tells us to love one another. you can still love people while disagreeing! You guys are saying that poeple are stupid, and can't stop themselves form doing violence. What On earth happened to SELF control!!!.
People don't like orthodox christians not because of their Absolutes. Everyone is absolute on things like Justice, Fairness and Equality. People don't like you conservatives because of your sexist racist, xenophobic, mysogynistic, homophobic, self-righteousness, worshipping of capitalism. Just like Jesus no doubt? The only ones going to Hell are you, Jesus will hurl you in there himself. Go back to the Dark Ages you losers, -signed: A non-rightwing lunatic Christian.
Just wanted to point out a real example of Al Mohler's quote: "If you get the truth question wrong, you will be abhorrent in the life of you church" Could that not be apparent on the current events of catholic priests? the scandals, the sex abuses? that is abhorrence in the catholic church. It shows. I am not saying you will do what they did if you don't get the truth. It is, however obvious, that the catholics do not have the truth. Christianity is a matter of direction, not perfection.
While it's important to address heresies in the Church, we shouldn't spent too much time or energy on it, unless it's the prevailing opinion. The Emergent Movement.is just a fraction of Christianity, and has been "done" before. Mainline churches everywhere embraced this kind of liberalism 40 yrs ago, and shriveled up. But orthodox Christianity will all its absolutes remains strong. People ar still looking for absolutes. Proof of that is the growth of conservative evangelicalism and Islam.
I just wanted to post one thing, These guys are talking about the issues of right and wrong. THey do both exist. is there a rigth and wrong, or isn't there? The only thing that people can say is that we don't know which is right or which is wrong. It is ridiculous to say "right and wrong" don't exist. because when you say "they don;t exist" you claim that you are RIGHT about that. and that is absolute or not. If you believe that, you need to ask yourself this: "Are you sure?"
@javajeff2 I agree-I used to be an evangelical. This talk makes me sick. 5 years ago, I would have been amening these guys all over the place. People think the narrow way is having right doctrine instead of just loving people and knowing Jesus. I feel like I could throw up after watching this.
The truth is our most valuable commodity in Christianity, love in itself is not enough, true love is not possible without truth.
Grace gives us the ability to see things the way they really are without condemnation, truth enables us to walk away form the things that bring judgement. Grace and truth ALWAYS go together.
Grace is not given for us to feel ok just the way we are, it is given to lead us towards the truth.
@slooob23 I didn't say that having right doctrine wasn't important. It is really simple. Love the Lord. Love people. You can have the right doctrine without love and that is what is really dangerous. I went to a church for years and years where they had "right doctine." I didn't sense one speck of love in the place. I am meeting now with people who are being challenged as to what we actually believe. There is more freedom there and more genuine love than I have ever experienced.
@dliberty1988 How could you love people and know Jesus if you don't believe in what he is saying, or if what you believe is not consistent with the scriptures and what Jesus taught?????
There is a return of God in postmodern thought... Derrida, Bauman and Levinas all being good cases in point. I really enjoyed post-modern theology and ethics - 'Shadow of Spirit', 'Postmodern Ethics' both excellent reads. Postmodernism is not an attack on religious faith - rather a way of looking at truth, knowledge, power etc in our world. The irony is that the religious makes a return in post-modern thought!
Christians should not be persectuing gay boys @mypolicy9, THe biBloe says to love one another, and OBEY GOD. Just as God says to ALL of humanity, I love Y-O-U, YOU! but not what you are doing. (sin) You don't have to agree with someone to LOVE them,you don't have t olike what they do to lOve them either., I think that church that protests outside funerals of gay people entirely misses that point, and they are giving christinaity a bad name.
Truth is "the real state of affairs"...that seems like a very plain statement! But what does even THAT mean? Here's a quick stab at a faithful translation: Truth...is "the way things really are"...is that any clearer to anyone? What I love about "emergent" is that it says..um, there's some depth there, let's talk about it...see what scripture says about it, let the Spirit lead us into understanding it, and hold ourselves acccountable for Living it.
@skepticnyc Please have a read of Alvin Plantinga's free will defense of the logicl problem of evil and then see if you still agree. Virtually every critic has accepted Plantinga's defense. Only the resurrection of Jesus as revealed in scripture solves the experiential problem of evil.
I know of many highly regarded apologists. I am a grad student and unfortunately do not have enough time to read essays. The reason I comment on youtube is for someone who HAS read and is knowlegable to answer my "objecttions" if not only questions.
RETARDS! It's really quite simple you can't support your religious views with postmodern philosophy. You can't even support atheism with postmodern philosophy. All you can support is agnosticism! Postmodernism =/= new age.
your best arsenal against the self proclaming christians who act like the "criminally insane" (WHICH again is in violation of the lifestyle and fundamentals of christianity) is to tell them HOW and THAT they are breaking gods laws and the teachings of christianity. If the christian hears you and still acts otherwise, then he/she is not a true Christian. NOT because he/she doesnt change because of what YOU say, but because of what he Should Know JESUS said.
If your trying to debunk christians, then there is no one to tell you to do otherwise, However if your trying to assume that all Christians are hypocrits or "criminally insane" then your not using logical and rational thinking because it is obvious to anybody who looks at the fundamentals of Christianity, that those who supposedly calaim to be Christian, and act as "criminally insane" people, are doing this in VIOLATION of what the bible and Christ/Christianity teaches, not according to it.
@mattetho I don't support a tax-exempt organization teaching children to hate gay boys, or to hate themselves if they are gay. It is child abuse. Christianity is criminal insanity.
@mattetho Homosexuality is neither a crime nor a disease, yet Christian lunatics still abuse their children with the ancient superstition that gay boys are monsters. This causes beatings, murders, and suicides. Criminal insanity.
Hi all, I recognize Ravi Zacharias and RC Sproul (both fabulous writers, teachers and speakers), but who's the gentleman with the striped tie, the one who spoke last?
If he wrote any books, I think I'd like to read them. :)
Perhaps they should have had a postmodernist on panel... then they could at least had a good understanding of what postmodernism is. Levinas and God? Derrida and Atheism? Apparently, this doesn't matter to those up on the stage that probably just read the wikipedia article 5 minutes beforehand.
@Arodinme6 this wasn't about post-modernism, this was about being scared of change. If they want to talk about "the abdication of Christian Cougage", maybe they should examine hunkering down in the mud of tradition, and not facing the questions of today.
@musicguy1987 THis is CLEAR as day, THey are talking about postmodernism, I love ravi's quote "2000 years and suddenly this guy found the "secret" message of Jesus? " Suppose I ask, Lets all make Incest Ok, Are you just afraid of it? No IT is clearly wrong, You guys don't have a definiton for right and wrong, so you can't ask us if we ever thought we are wrong. We just know that there IS a right and wrong answer. You say there is not.
@Arodinme6 these guys are knowedgable in historu, they have studied many many years of history, in refernce to the refernce to erasmus, and luther, that is what happened, these guys are learned men, you don't have to listen, even though they are speaking truth.
@Arodinme6 these Guys are knowledgeable, and have lived and know what goes on in history, referencing luther and erasmus, that is what happened!. Please don't be ignorant of their intelligence, They are not saying we should not help the world in poverty, they are saying we should not throw away the importance of truth.
Christian bigots make the world miserable for gay boys. So when encountering a Christian, a rational person is not going to ask them for their recipe for cupcakes. A rational person is going to ask a Christian why they promote hateful criminal insanity against gay boys. When Christians renounce and condemn their history of persecution of gay boys, then rational people will stop thinking of Christians as being criminally insane.
@mypolicy9 When Christians stop harassing, bullying, bashing, and murdering gay boys, rational people will stop bringing up the fact that Christians teach their children that they have an Invisible Cloud Father who commands them to harass, bully, bash, and murder gay boys. Criminal insanity.
@BrandonClapp74 When you stop teaching children to bully, bash, and murder gay boys and insisting your idiot superstitions get taught in public schools, rational people will have little reason to acknowledge the existence of your ugly little fringe cult. Isn't it time for you to go sacrifice a goat now and dance around a rock?
@funboy7979 I want everyone to just think about this for a minute. Please find for me a Bible verse that says you are supposed to bully/make fun of short, skinny, or fat people. Here Is the issue. "religion" as you guys say is the "cause" for bullying TOTALLY falls apart here. AHA! see the point. Gay act different, AND look different THAT is why they are bullied, There are atheists who still bully gays. You have no argument that Christianity is the cause.
@funboy7979 However this NEVER (I use caps for emphasis) Excuses the idiots like that dumb "fundamentalist" Church who protests at gay's funerals from doing what they do. they ARE giving Christianity a BAD name! Jesus Came and died! that is the greatest display of love ever! Now, HOW can you say that "christianity" is the cause when I have proven it is NOt at the core of the bullying! Differences are!
@funboy7979 Did you lose a nerve or something? I wouldn't want *your* superstitions and ignorant stupidity near me, so I have little reason to acknowledge the existence of your brain.
@EastofForever What is "stupidass (sic) bullshit?" That homosexuality is neither a crime nor a disease? Much as I like to be guided by anonymous internet shills, no legal authority in the US criminalizes homosexuality and quite a few prosecute hate crimes specifically committed against homosexuals. No medical authority describes homosexuality as a disease, but do view as pathological a paranoid obsession with homosexuals. Christians are criminally insane.
@EastofForever By Christian logic, anybody who doesn't believe in your Invisible Cloud Father, is "insanely biased and a stupidass." Christianity = criminal insanity. Go howl at the moon and dance around a rock.
@EastofForever Christians brainlessly and slavishly follow dogma, and cannot fathom that rational people generally think for themselves and rely on common sense. Thanks for the tip, Sparky, but I tend not to be guided by spam supplied by the criminally insane.
@funboy7979 Many good things have been misused by people in history. True Christians are known for their love for others, based on the example of Jesus and how He treated others, with compassion and grace. Those who do not are either misguided or wolves in sheep's clothing, and either way misrepresent what the gospel is meant to be about. In some cases it has become criminal insanity, but that is not what Jesus commands his followers to do. Such blanket statements as yours are inaccurate.
@Falkon85 For centuries Christian mobs have terrorized innocent people and committed mass murder in the name of your Imaginary Magic Zombie Boy. Rational people are sick of your criminal insanity.
@funboy7979 Yes, that has happened when liars claimed to be Christian. When ones claims to be something but does not follow it with their actions, that makes them a liar and a hypocrite. How many atrocities have been committed in the name of racism and evolution, in honestly following the core tenants of their belief system? Criminal insanity is not limited to those falsely claiming to follow God.
@funboy7979 Christianity does not teach anyone to "harass, bully and bash" anybody. The antithesis of this, actually. It is very wrong that people use their religion to justify many acts of atrocious iniquity. I don't think that you're ever going to find a case where anybody of any particular dogma (or who takes up the flag of the absence of any) is of perfect character. What you ask for is an impossibility that, self-contradictorily, rejects an underlying appeal to justice through continuity.
@funboy7979 Can you show me anywhere where Jesus(the leader of Christianity.) allows or commands anyone to bash, bully or murder gay people? Can you show me please. God has the power to say whats right and wrong, however its followers don't. No true Christian judges anyone for anything. That doesn't negate the fact that it is still wrong but Christians are told to love, not judge. We call those people "nominal christians" people who say they r but there life doesnt prove it.
@funboy7979 You said it and I'm not letting you off the hook. Please prove it if you can? That's what happens when you state something as fact. The burden of proof is on you.
@aaaavedon i am a Christian. and on behalf of those who call themselves Christians who have treated you in such a manner, I would like to sincerely apologize. You are so right. Christianity is not about hating people. I just want you to know that not all Christians are like that. There are some of us who are trying to follow our Calling and love and accept people, just as we saw Jesus doing in our Holy Book. I am so sorry for those Christians who do not act in this way.
@aaaavedon christian bigots are idiots, i agree, but lets remember what the bible teaches...
1. ALL sexual acts outside of marriage is sinful
2. Marriage is defined as between a man and a woman
a real christian should be promoting those points and against anything (including homosexuality and heterosexual fornication). that is not in those laws.
@Tobytrim "You are still confusing the event or entity itself with the value of a statement about it!"
--No I am not. "P" is true if and only if P. "The universe is expanding" is true if and only if the universe is, in fact, expanding.
You are still confusing the truth of a proposition with someone's knowledge of it. You are still confusing the truth of a proposition with someone's verifying it. Dumbass.
--No. "The truth" is a true proposition, verified or not. Stop confusing the truth of a proposition with the verification of it--or the knowledge of it. "P is true" does not mean "S verifies P." Nor does it mean "S knows P."
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
@Tobytrim The facts speak for themselves. We've proven there are true propositions some people don't know to be true. So what you say is false. The truth-value of a proposition is NOT contingent upon someone's knowing it to be true, but rather solely upon on actual states of affairs in the world. Q.E.D.
@Tobytrim ""universe is expanding" was not true 200 years ago because it was not known." Strawman too! The proposal was not known to be true or false!"
--But you keep saying "truth is contingent on knowledge." That means, punchy, that the truth of P requires someone knowing that P. But this claim is proven to be false because it entials a contradiction, as I have already demonstrated.
@Tobytrim "Truth cannot be ascribed to what is not known!"
--False. Yes it can. The proposition expressed by the sentence "The unvierse is expanding" is still true, even if no one 200 years ago knew it was true. Therefore, truth is ascribed to a proposition some don't know to be true. According to you, truth requires knowledge. So, since John does not know P, P is not true. Bill knows that P, so P is true. Contradiction. You don't have a case, punchy. Sorry.
@mypolicy9 Ha ha! I get the distinct impression that you are persisting with this silly circular argument hoping to catch me on some kind of semantic faux pas?
@Tobytrim ""universe is expanding" was not true 200 years ago because it was not known" Strawman too! The proposal was not known to be true or false!"
--But you keep saying "truth is contingent on knowledge". That means, punchy, that the truth of P requires knowing that P. But this claim is proven to be false, as I have already demonstrated.
@Tobytrim Precisely for this complication philosophers have said that propositions are abstract entities like numbers, whose truth value cannot depend on persons since their truth-values depend ONLY on facts and states of affairs in the world. "P" is true if and only if P. Even if no one exists to entertain a true proposition, it is still true nevertheless. Your view entails a logical contradiction, so you desperately need to modify it. Here...
@Tobytrim "And here, yet again, you make the admission that truth requires a proposition!"
--Of course because like I said a "truth" is a true proposition. A falsehood is a false proposition. But it doesn't follow that the proposition has to be entertained or known by some particular person in order to be true!!!!!!! The proposition expressed by the sentence "the universe is expanding" is true only if the universe is, in fact, expanding. Dipshit! End of story!
@Tobytrim "Who do you suppose is doing the proposing???!"
--The proposition "the universe is expanding" doesn't have to be proposed by Bill across the street for it to be true. It is still true regardless that someone "proposes" it.
@Tobytrim "A proposition does not exist until the concept is known"
--Well, surely people had a grasp of the concept of "a universe" and the concept of "expansion" 200 years ago. So even though the proposition expressed by the sentence "The universe is expanding" was not known, the proposition was still true nevertheless. There exist plenty of true propositions not known to be true. Not everyone is a scientist, for instance. Do you seriously think everyone is omniscient??
@mypolicy9 "Well, surely people had a grasp of the concept of "a universe" and the concept of "expansion" 200 years ago"
Haha! It took you a while to get to this one!! I even pre-empted it but erased my comment .
We're back to our fortune teller. If it had been, it wouldn't have been a truth statement. To make it as such, would be a lie. If it was speculated, the speculation would have been later proved right when it could called a truth statement in the light of knowledge. T
@Tobytrim "We're back to our fortune teller. If it had been, it wouldn't have been a truth statement."
--What are you talking about? The proposition "You lose 5 dollars on Jan 1 2010" is always true. Someone's knowledge has nothing to do with whether it is true or false.
@mypolicy9"What are you talking about? The proposition "You lose 5 dollars on Jan 1 2010" is always true" You yourself said it wasn't truth at the point she said it - It became the truth ... You called it belief , I think.
"Someone's knowledge has nothing to do with whether it is true or false"
Knowledge of the proposition is unquestionably required.
Are you saying that someone who makes a prophesy, is making an honest truth statement because it coincidentally comes true later?.
@Tobytrim "You yourself said it wasn't truth at the point she said it - It became the truth ..."
--I did not. I said it becomes known to be true. If there was ambiguity about that, then it was probably my failure to be clear, since it is still the case that tensed propositions are always true because they mention times. "You lose 5 dollars on Jan 1 2020" is ALWAYS TRUE. It is true at ALL TIMES
@Tobytrim "Knowledge of the proposition is unquestionably required."
--No it is not. Over and over again I show your arguments for this claim are all invalid.
The proposition expressed by the sentence "the universe is expanding" is true now, and it was true back then, even if someone did not know it was true. Prove to me this proposition was NOT true!!!!!
is christianity already relativistic with its interpretations and different sects after the schism that martin luther brought? You christians talk of relativism yet still hold to it in a different way. Is there such a thing as objective christianity?
Requiemxtoxinnocence 3 days ago
Go to hudsonvilleprc. Attend the upcoming conference. TRUTH is knowable.
keebearfull 3 weeks ago
We do indeed have an Answer! We are hosting a conference on this exact subject, check out our video channel for more information.
hudsonvilleprc 1 month ago
"When the tide is low, every shrimp has it's own puddle". GREAT quote Ravi!
frmdeath2life 1 month ago
3 heavy-weights in one place. I love these guys. And that's because they are STRONG on DOCTRINE.
dougmoerhoffman 1 month ago 2
go read some deleuze and then attempt a video on post-modernism.
Debordsbullet 2 months ago
The type of post-modernism you are responding to is easily destroyed because it isn't the position held by any po-mo. Why not attempt a response to some actual discourses within so-called post-modernism?
Debordsbullet 2 months ago
These guys are trying to articulate what has obviously happend to the church in America and shout a warning. So many preachers who have no business preaching have made a living and in the process deccimated the church with nonsense. I am angry at them, and I have pity on them at the same time.
Andante931 2 months ago 4
I think postmodernist Christians exists because they are afraid of confronting the so called "objective truth" claims (which are irrational & has no epistemological value) made by "modernist" Christians. Postmodernist Christianity is all about political correctness. They dont want to call it like it is. Besides, if they do so, they would have to quit being Christians because their own postmodernist Christianity would get the same judgement. That's why there are so many ex-Christian atheists.
cre599 2 months ago 2
I find it tragically funny & ridiculously hypocritical when Christians criticize "postmodernist Christianity" and its views on "truth", when the TRUTH is that theology has NO epistemological value whatsoever: it provides no evidence AT ALL, its arguments R logically flawed & usually, lack scientific literacy. They should have more respect 4 the only ALLY they have against rationality & science. After all, they always end up hiding behind the solipsism of religious faith.
cre599 2 months ago
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cre599 2 months ago
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cre599 2 months ago
religious videos have the most youtube arguing EVER!!!
patriciacarrasco 3 months ago 4
@patriciacarrasco It`s true.
JamesJon1187 4 days ago
Doctrine, beliefs and faith should be able to withstand questioning and thorough study. We need to seek truth instead of defending what we've been taught as truth.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 4 months ago
Many false teachers are siding with the builders holding to the old covenant. wolves! These men support the modern jewish state and call it biblical, lies and deception, Stand with Christ alone and not a man apart, You may be standing with magog, you maybe working with satan who in turn helps their world wide ministries. Yeshua is Lord
TheOringinalBRad 4 months ago
@RJinEngland Sproul and Zacharias are fine Biblical teachers. Ravi is an Apologist.
Brucev7 5 months ago
@LaneCh The HS must draw first.
Brucev7 5 months ago
@LaneCh Yes.
Brucev7 5 months ago
@jeffca19 No, they're pointing what is wrong with the Emergent church movement.
Brucev7 5 months ago
@zanaton Sproul, Zacharias, are too fine Biblical teaching Pastors. Ravi is an Apologist.
Brucev7 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The Postmodernism Generator is a computer program that automatically generates postmodern essays. Gramatically correct but meaningless.
Now watch a college language student reviewing a computer generated essay. He has no clue of its true origin.
A must see.
/watch?v=jxQ7rONF5iE
verwoestijning 5 months ago
If you'd like to read some article on the Emergent Church and on Rob Bell and his book, Love Wins, visit: HELLS BELL DOT NET
PreachingJesus 5 months ago
Really? I've never seen four bigger wind-sucks on one stage.
Madstmichael77 5 months ago
@Madstmichael77 What an authority you do not appear as
TheNewday2 5 months ago
So...they couldn't find anyone who actually supported the things they were attacking to discuss this with?
dredtulc 6 months ago
I would like to have heard more from Rhavi Zacharias.
reginaDexant 6 months ago
@reginaDexant Me, too. Ravi is a great speaker.
OceanPeace3 5 months ago
@OceanPeace3 God bless you. Be of good cheer and continue to stand strong for the True Faith. Your friend, Regina
reginaDexant 5 months ago
Hahaha 2000 years have gone by now suddenly he's found the secret to it?
XenOfOrrinoco 6 months ago
im sorry that i cannot put in to words what is in my heart, there is so much on this issue. Please watch yt page fuelproject vid know your enemy. Tracing the masonic influence throughout history with its roots in babylon and the fallen angels that they worshipped. How the symobolgy seen in architecture and in the layout of vatican and the pentagram on un flag etc it all ties in with the NWO for one religion and control
toiwin 6 months ago
this "new" church doctrine is nothing more than an aim to deceive the christians into a warm and fuzzy PC religion. Many will be deceived and go that way, and ultimately deny the deity of christ, as this is that driving forces aim. That all religons and people embrace the earth and eosoteric masonic angel worship under a one world religon, this outbreak of the christian church is just the first step in bringing them all together. Notice Muslim and catholic meetings,
toiwin 6 months ago
things that take away from and undermine the God Head and deity of Jesus Christ is NOT of christ. BEWARE of this new type religion as the true roots are in masonic rituals. All religons are being attacked by this watering down of their theology in order to form a new world religon. Christians HEAD UP ! now is the time to STAND See yt know your enemy it is on page fuelproject, i would say essential viewing for all faiths
toiwin 6 months ago
R. C. Sproul is stuck in fixed belief, and yet, people applaud his Flat Earth Theology :(
theNCGstudios 6 months ago
Protestantism is the catalyst for post-modernism, so these men talking about the problem of PM are only talking about what their tradition gave to the world. So who are they really fighting, themselves, or the many offshoots they gave birth to?
xlamentx 6 months ago
The telling aspect of this video is the confusion of these men as to why the "emergent" church has developed. Yes, there is the influence of post modernism, but there is also the culture of the church, which is FULL of elements directly responible for this so-called emergence. No admission of responsibility for such a thing exists here, and that is a huge piece of the problem. The church has dismally failed in its own ability to correct itself.
denoinwa 6 months ago
@denoinwa true in some ways, but essentially as a believer in Jesus Christ who is God, that cannot be watered down no matter how PC it may be to aim for peace with those who sin. The sin of sexual depravity is in no uncertain terms outlawed by God and is an abomination in his sight. So we know this, but society is bit by bit pushing for that aspect to be overlooked. We would be condemned at the moment verbally, for a stand against those sins.
toiwin 6 months ago
Sproul RULES! WUH WUHT!!
MegaMandrake99 6 months ago
Who is the host?
SouthCarolinaSon 6 months ago
dliberty, amen! You can just view all this conversation and see how totally blind some of these people seem to enjoy.
gretanojoke 6 months ago
I think there is an absolute truth, but you won't be punished for failing to see it. Doxastic voluntarism has been shown completely false and so I think post modernists have been trying to find a way to deal with those who aren't predisposed to see the truth.
LIGHTRONIX 7 months ago
The pernicious thing about Biblical fairy tales is their inherent supposition that without mythological beasts threatening us we would all be murderers, thieves, and rapists. Most people in prison are devoutly religious. Most atheists are well-educated and law-abiding. What does that tell you?
funboy7979 7 months ago
@funboy7979
atheists like hitler?
1988TheHitman 7 months ago 3
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@1988TheHitman
"atheists like hitler?"
Hitler, from Mein Kampf:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
In other words: Hitler was not an atheist.
MomoTheBellyDancer 4 months ago
@funboy7979 That's a bit misguided. "Most" people in prison who are proclaiming to be devout believers came to know Christ after incarceration.
flcn92 6 months ago
Because I know Him. I have the nature of Christ and the Holy Spirit inside of me. Anyone who is a true believer has the mind of Christ. Besides, I am not fallen any more. I was in Adam, but now I am in Christ. The biggest lie of the church today is that you cannot trust your heart...I know...I know...the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked! Exactly-pre Christ this is true. Not true anymore my friend. Jesus makes all things new. I have a new nature and a new heart.
dliberty1988 7 months ago
The love of Christ is, in fact, enough. Truth will always come out of love. Modern Christianity is mostly sin-management. The assumption is made that God is not awesome enough on His own to love. We have to scare people into believing. Fear has never and can NEVER produce genuine love. Perfect love casts out fear. The one who fears is not perfected in love. I don't sense much love in these "experts" in their suits. They strike me as the kind of people whom Jesus would have termed Pharisees.
dliberty1988 7 months ago
@dliberty1988
What irritates me about your position (and Rob Bell's) is that you make tremendous presumptions on the the character of God.
So tell me, how do you know what true love or justice really is? what moral foundation do you stand on to judge whether your version of 'love' is really the same as Gods version?
What moral foundation (as a fallen human being) do you have other than your own opinions and experience?
How can you as a fallen human being 'judge' what a good God can or can't do?
slooob23 7 months ago
I think the bottom line in emergent church thinkers is that they really did not accept the Bible or the Gospel as being literally true and their experience has not happened to participate in believing so they modify it to their likings. They like being in the position of God because of a lack of faith or belief. these people probably did not receive true conversion to Christ
magicbrainman 8 months ago
A new form of liberalsim in the church? How refreshing!
Mick77 8 months ago
I would love to hear Mohler's answer to the last sentence. If anyone is well read on him, do you have an idea of how he would have answered his proposed question?
RealBloppy 9 months ago
@RealBloppy Yes, he would certainly affirm that heterosexual relations within a monogomous marriage is the way God intended sexuality to function.
magikkell 8 months ago
@magikkell I guess I understand/expect that.. but with the example he brought up (which is a tough one) about having two homosexuals in his office asking what they're going to do, he says Christianity does have an answer, but this video cuts off I guess from the answer he would probably say to them. ..Unless his answer is just flatly, "Welp, you're gay. It's not what God intended. Don't be one anymore. Good luck to you." I'm asking because it's a really tough situation for us Christians.
RealBloppy 8 months ago
@magikkell And I think we need to be able to respond better to these critical issues of our time aside from just saying "homosexuality is wrong." I think that route is too simplistic and creates pretty intense barriers. These are deep, complex issues. To toss them aside with fire and pitty to just say, "you're wrong, fix yourself, then come to Jesus." I think the Biblical and Christian response need to be the fact that Christ IS the healer. We come to him broken. We don't fix ourselves.
RealBloppy 8 months ago
I'm totally rambling, haha. Sorry, but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to get across.
RealBloppy 8 months ago
@RealBloppy
I get what you are saying. I just researched this topic to put together a sermon on homosexuality for an apologetic preaching class. I would basically say that the "being that way" or "being born that way" is not a valid reason to act that way. I am a born procrastinator, but if I "live out my nature" of procrastination I will lose my wife, flunk out of school, and move into my mom's basement and play World of Warcraft 18 hours a day. That is my nature, but that is not my calling.
magikkell 8 months ago
@magikkell U RESEARCHD WAT
jwdimick74 8 months ago
Its very sad to read the above comments of funboy n mypolicy9 they have probably had a harsh encounter with hard liners who show no grace. but I would say to them God is a gracious God who is full of mercy n compassion we have all sinned and fallen short of God's plan for us but he extends the had of love and friendship to all who will come. However, if you do not come to meet him as a compassion saviour u will meet him as a judge
Jen8973 9 months ago
he sounds so cool and clever
ArcherVII 9 months ago
Amen brothers!!!!!
carkim521 9 months ago
Jesus is the only way.... not mohammed, not budda, only Christ
zoltron30 9 months ago 2
taking it for granted that emergent is heresy, nevertheless these men here talked about christian responsibility, courage, truth.
do they know anything of delight, joy peace and rest in christ?
emergent is the fire they jumped in to. but we, pharisees and hypocrites, are the frying pan they jumped from
how do we orthodox think we are better than the emergent?
we do not believe our own doctrine, we would be full of love joy peace etc if we did
Strefanasha 9 months ago
"were they bored with God?"
No. they never knew him. but they were bored with the dead aridity of a doctrinal and creedal system which was not in fact believed by the likes of us, as seen by our fruit.
that is to say WE the carnal orthodox, encouraged them to reject doctrine, because all we had was doctrine, and not the reality that doctrine purports to.
emergent is pure heresy but we are the pharisees and hypocrites that spawned them . so let us not point the finger too vigourously
Strefanasha 9 months ago
@Strefanasha exactly, so true. the emergent church didnt come from thin air, its reactionary and is here because of hypocrisy in the church
patriciacarrasco 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
funboy7979 is a TROLL
funboy7979=bumpyjjeans=walterglanz=bc9021010000=freestuffff=adamcortes=mmmmmrazor=jupiterdingo=tonzimala=zoooooperdoooooper and there are more
They are all the same person. They all post on the same videos, click the "like" button on their comments, have disabled their channels, flag as spam those who disagree with his trollish ways.
415jln 9 months ago
Dang. 35 seconds in, and dude had already covered nearly every base in the falsities of Rob Bell's "Love Wins", and the "Emergent" theology behind it. That's what I call a confirmation!
natemup 9 months ago
very nice video!!! great men of God
zoltron30 9 months ago 3
@jesseplume the purpose of why they are meeting is in the title. Why would someone go and spend their evening there to listen to them if they didn't already believe the basic core truth's of what the speaker's believe?
drumhoppy 9 months ago
I really like how these guys talk about the church and its current state of affairs but never once in this entire speech used Scripture to back it up. Only using theological terms and big words. The final truth about any Christianly doctrine or theology is and should always be Christ died for ALL sin from killing to drunkenness and by forming a relationship with him we are set free to live a life of grace and peace not bound by Calvinism or whateverism. All Scripture points to grace!!!
jesseplume 9 months ago
@Junboy7979, @Bumbyjeans. Will you guys please STOP blaiming the "topoic" as the cause for bullying!!!! christianity does not casuing hating on gays! Poeple can still CHOOSE how to respond, We can CHOOSE to obey what we are taught. Chrsitianity NEVER says kill gays! Jesus tells us to love one another. you can still love people while disagreeing! You guys are saying that poeple are stupid, and can't stop themselves form doing violence. What On earth happened to SELF control!!!.
willph18 10 months ago
People don't like orthodox christians not because of their Absolutes. Everyone is absolute on things like Justice, Fairness and Equality. People don't like you conservatives because of your sexist racist, xenophobic, mysogynistic, homophobic, self-righteousness, worshipping of capitalism. Just like Jesus no doubt? The only ones going to Hell are you, Jesus will hurl you in there himself. Go back to the Dark Ages you losers, -signed: A non-rightwing lunatic Christian.
Shojahan 10 months ago
Just wanted to point out a real example of Al Mohler's quote: "If you get the truth question wrong, you will be abhorrent in the life of you church" Could that not be apparent on the current events of catholic priests? the scandals, the sex abuses? that is abhorrence in the catholic church. It shows. I am not saying you will do what they did if you don't get the truth. It is, however obvious, that the catholics do not have the truth. Christianity is a matter of direction, not perfection.
willph18 10 months ago
a bunch stupid moth..f..ckers
mrpaiva04 10 months ago
Brilliant commentary -- I would expect no less from three guys like Ravi Zacharias, Al Mohler, and R. C. Sproul!!
lambyoung 10 months ago 7
@lambyoung
i like the way Ravi called Albert Mohler an expert because Ravi is quite brilliant as well
zoltron30 5 months ago
While it's important to address heresies in the Church, we shouldn't spent too much time or energy on it, unless it's the prevailing opinion. The Emergent Movement.is just a fraction of Christianity, and has been "done" before. Mainline churches everywhere embraced this kind of liberalism 40 yrs ago, and shriveled up. But orthodox Christianity will all its absolutes remains strong. People ar still looking for absolutes. Proof of that is the growth of conservative evangelicalism and Islam.
draesonh 10 months ago 2
I just wanted to post one thing, These guys are talking about the issues of right and wrong. THey do both exist. is there a rigth and wrong, or isn't there? The only thing that people can say is that we don't know which is right or which is wrong. It is ridiculous to say "right and wrong" don't exist. because when you say "they don;t exist" you claim that you are RIGHT about that. and that is absolute or not. If you believe that, you need to ask yourself this: "Are you sure?"
willph18 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Boy, do I see modern phylacteries and tassels here?
javajeff2 10 months ago
Boy, do I see modern phylacteries and tassels here?
javajeff2 10 months ago
@javajeff2 I agree-I used to be an evangelical. This talk makes me sick. 5 years ago, I would have been amening these guys all over the place. People think the narrow way is having right doctrine instead of just loving people and knowing Jesus. I feel like I could throw up after watching this.
dliberty1988 7 months ago
@dliberty1988
The narrow way is growing in grace AND truth.
The truth is our most valuable commodity in Christianity, love in itself is not enough, true love is not possible without truth.
Grace gives us the ability to see things the way they really are without condemnation, truth enables us to walk away form the things that bring judgement. Grace and truth ALWAYS go together.
Grace is not given for us to feel ok just the way we are, it is given to lead us towards the truth.
slooob23 7 months ago
@slooob23 I didn't say that having right doctrine wasn't important. It is really simple. Love the Lord. Love people. You can have the right doctrine without love and that is what is really dangerous. I went to a church for years and years where they had "right doctine." I didn't sense one speck of love in the place. I am meeting now with people who are being challenged as to what we actually believe. There is more freedom there and more genuine love than I have ever experienced.
dliberty1988 7 months ago
@dliberty1988 How could you love people and know Jesus if you don't believe in what he is saying, or if what you believe is not consistent with the scriptures and what Jesus taught?????
maidenshazza 7 months ago
There is a return of God in postmodern thought... Derrida, Bauman and Levinas all being good cases in point. I really enjoyed post-modern theology and ethics - 'Shadow of Spirit', 'Postmodern Ethics' both excellent reads. Postmodernism is not an attack on religious faith - rather a way of looking at truth, knowledge, power etc in our world. The irony is that the religious makes a return in post-modern thought!
willhum 10 months ago
Christians should not be persectuing gay boys @mypolicy9, THe biBloe says to love one another, and OBEY GOD. Just as God says to ALL of humanity, I love Y-O-U, YOU! but not what you are doing. (sin) You don't have to agree with someone to LOVE them,you don't have t olike what they do to lOve them either., I think that church that protests outside funerals of gay people entirely misses that point, and they are giving christinaity a bad name.
willph18 10 months ago
Comment removed
willph18 10 months ago
@willph18 I meant this to go towards @funboy7979, Not to you
willph18 10 months ago
cool. instead of changing the schematic of the way poverty wrecks the world, lets sit around and talk about what churches are what
Vinny192 11 months ago
Clear as mud.
forsalebygail 11 months ago
Truth is "the real state of affairs"...that seems like a very plain statement! But what does even THAT mean? Here's a quick stab at a faithful translation: Truth...is "the way things really are"...is that any clearer to anyone? What I love about "emergent" is that it says..um, there's some depth there, let's talk about it...see what scripture says about it, let the Spirit lead us into understanding it, and hold ourselves acccountable for Living it.
edzotube 11 months ago
Hideous furniture.
nicksum29 1 year ago
The problem of evil is resolved by free will.
But in heaven we assume we have free will and that there is NO evil.
Do we have free will in heaven?
if yes:
Such a possible world where NO evil and free will can EXIST...
if not:
Then free will is NOT an adequate defense for evil.
-an atheist
skepticnyc 1 year ago
@skepticnyc Please have a read of Alvin Plantinga's free will defense of the logicl problem of evil and then see if you still agree. Virtually every critic has accepted Plantinga's defense. Only the resurrection of Jesus as revealed in scripture solves the experiential problem of evil.
netpropheting 1 year ago
@netpropheting
I know of many highly regarded apologists. I am a grad student and unfortunately do not have enough time to read essays. The reason I comment on youtube is for someone who HAS read and is knowlegable to answer my "objecttions" if not only questions.
skepticnyc 1 year ago
RETARDS! It's really quite simple you can't support your religious views with postmodern philosophy. You can't even support atheism with postmodern philosophy. All you can support is agnosticism! Postmodernism =/= new age.
HillDueceua 1 year ago
your best arsenal against the self proclaming christians who act like the "criminally insane" (WHICH again is in violation of the lifestyle and fundamentals of christianity) is to tell them HOW and THAT they are breaking gods laws and the teachings of christianity. If the christian hears you and still acts otherwise, then he/she is not a true Christian. NOT because he/she doesnt change because of what YOU say, but because of what he Should Know JESUS said.
Brian42Own 1 year ago
@Brian42Own You need to learn your mother tongue.
bumpyjjeans 1 year ago 3
If your trying to debunk christians, then there is no one to tell you to do otherwise, However if your trying to assume that all Christians are hypocrits or "criminally insane" then your not using logical and rational thinking because it is obvious to anybody who looks at the fundamentals of Christianity, that those who supposedly calaim to be Christian, and act as "criminally insane" people, are doing this in VIOLATION of what the bible and Christ/Christianity teaches, not according to it.
Brian42Own 1 year ago
@mattetho I don't support a tax-exempt organization teaching children to hate gay boys, or to hate themselves if they are gay. It is child abuse. Christianity is criminal insanity.
funboy7979 1 year ago 2
@mattetho Homosexuality is neither a crime nor a disease, yet Christian lunatics still abuse their children with the ancient superstition that gay boys are monsters. This causes beatings, murders, and suicides. Criminal insanity.
funboy7979 1 year ago 2
One word. Sad. They sit there like the papal curia. Talk like them too.
tarmbruster1 1 year ago
@bumpyjjeans
The crime here is homosexuality being a crime against nature.
RubberJoelzilla 1 year ago
seems like a lot of homo's posting in here eh funboy? lol
TheSupersneed 1 year ago
@Sweet92Sue That is Al Mohler
121JRo 1 year ago
Hi all, I recognize Ravi Zacharias and RC Sproul (both fabulous writers, teachers and speakers), but who's the gentleman with the striped tie, the one who spoke last?
If he wrote any books, I think I'd like to read them. :)
God bless and thanks!
Sweet92Sue 1 year ago
@Sweet92Sue That's Fatty McFatterson.
funboy7979 1 year ago 7
Perhaps they should have had a postmodernist on panel... then they could at least had a good understanding of what postmodernism is. Levinas and God? Derrida and Atheism? Apparently, this doesn't matter to those up on the stage that probably just read the wikipedia article 5 minutes beforehand.
Arodinme6 1 year ago 11
@Arodinme6 this wasn't about post-modernism, this was about being scared of change. If they want to talk about "the abdication of Christian Cougage", maybe they should examine hunkering down in the mud of tradition, and not facing the questions of today.
musicguy1987 11 months ago
@musicguy1987 THis is CLEAR as day, THey are talking about postmodernism, I love ravi's quote "2000 years and suddenly this guy found the "secret" message of Jesus? " Suppose I ask, Lets all make Incest Ok, Are you just afraid of it? No IT is clearly wrong, You guys don't have a definiton for right and wrong, so you can't ask us if we ever thought we are wrong. We just know that there IS a right and wrong answer. You say there is not.
One of us is right, the other is wrong!
willph18 10 months ago
@Arodinme6 these guys are knowedgable in historu, they have studied many many years of history, in refernce to the refernce to erasmus, and luther, that is what happened, these guys are learned men, you don't have to listen, even though they are speaking truth.
willph18 10 months ago
@Arodinme6 these Guys are knowledgeable, and have lived and know what goes on in history, referencing luther and erasmus, that is what happened!. Please don't be ignorant of their intelligence, They are not saying we should not help the world in poverty, they are saying we should not throw away the importance of truth.
willph18 10 months ago
Christian bigots make the world miserable for gay boys. So when encountering a Christian, a rational person is not going to ask them for their recipe for cupcakes. A rational person is going to ask a Christian why they promote hateful criminal insanity against gay boys. When Christians renounce and condemn their history of persecution of gay boys, then rational people will stop thinking of Christians as being criminally insane.
aaaavedon 1 year ago 14
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@aaaavedon Hello again, Sockpuppet. "Gay boys gay boys gay boys." Hahaha!
mypolicy9 1 year ago
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@mypolicy9 When Christians stop harassing, bullying, bashing, and murdering gay boys, rational people will stop bringing up the fact that Christians teach their children that they have an Invisible Cloud Father who commands them to harass, bully, bash, and murder gay boys. Criminal insanity.
funboy7979 1 year ago 16
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@funboy7979 look funboy go be Happy touching other men and leave us alone
BrandonClapp74 1 year ago
@BrandonClapp74 When you stop teaching children to bully, bash, and murder gay boys and insisting your idiot superstitions get taught in public schools, rational people will have little reason to acknowledge the existence of your ugly little fringe cult. Isn't it time for you to go sacrifice a goat now and dance around a rock?
funboy7979 1 year ago 5
@funboy7979 I want everyone to just think about this for a minute. Please find for me a Bible verse that says you are supposed to bully/make fun of short, skinny, or fat people. Here Is the issue. "religion" as you guys say is the "cause" for bullying TOTALLY falls apart here. AHA! see the point. Gay act different, AND look different THAT is why they are bullied, There are atheists who still bully gays. You have no argument that Christianity is the cause.
willph18 8 months ago
@funboy7979 However this NEVER (I use caps for emphasis) Excuses the idiots like that dumb "fundamentalist" Church who protests at gay's funerals from doing what they do. they ARE giving Christianity a BAD name! Jesus Came and died! that is the greatest display of love ever! Now, HOW can you say that "christianity" is the cause when I have proven it is NOt at the core of the bullying! Differences are!
willph18 8 months ago
@funboy7979 Did you lose a nerve or something? I wouldn't want *your* superstitions and ignorant stupidity near me, so I have little reason to acknowledge the existence of your brain.
CarlosMarti123 7 months ago
@funboy7979 you're an idiot. I usually don't post to you guys, but this stupidass bullshit.
EastofForever 1 year ago
@EastofForever What is "stupidass (sic) bullshit?" That homosexuality is neither a crime nor a disease? Much as I like to be guided by anonymous internet shills, no legal authority in the US criminalizes homosexuality and quite a few prosecute hate crimes specifically committed against homosexuals. No medical authority describes homosexuality as a disease, but do view as pathological a paranoid obsession with homosexuals. Christians are criminally insane.
funboy7979 1 year ago 3
@funboy7979 you're insanely biased and a stupidass....and you definitely need to work
at reading comprehension.
EastofForever 1 year ago
@EastofForever By Christian logic, anybody who doesn't believe in your Invisible Cloud Father, is "insanely biased and a stupidass." Christianity = criminal insanity. Go howl at the moon and dance around a rock.
funboy7979 1 year ago 3
@funboy7979 lame lame lame.
pathetically even.
here son. here's some help. if you're going to "do the atheism thing" you need
more lame ammunition:
bartonpaullevenson doth cohm/Atheist.html
EastofForever 1 year ago
@EastofForever Christians brainlessly and slavishly follow dogma, and cannot fathom that rational people generally think for themselves and rely on common sense. Thanks for the tip, Sparky, but I tend not to be guided by spam supplied by the criminally insane.
funboy7979 1 year ago 3
@funboy7979 Many good things have been misused by people in history. True Christians are known for their love for others, based on the example of Jesus and how He treated others, with compassion and grace. Those who do not are either misguided or wolves in sheep's clothing, and either way misrepresent what the gospel is meant to be about. In some cases it has become criminal insanity, but that is not what Jesus commands his followers to do. Such blanket statements as yours are inaccurate.
Falkon85 1 year ago
@Falkon85 For centuries Christian mobs have terrorized innocent people and committed mass murder in the name of your Imaginary Magic Zombie Boy. Rational people are sick of your criminal insanity.
funboy7979 1 year ago 2
@funboy7979 Yes, that has happened when liars claimed to be Christian. When ones claims to be something but does not follow it with their actions, that makes them a liar and a hypocrite. How many atrocities have been committed in the name of racism and evolution, in honestly following the core tenants of their belief system? Criminal insanity is not limited to those falsely claiming to follow God.
Falkon85 1 year ago
@funboy7979 Christianity does not teach anyone to "harass, bully and bash" anybody. The antithesis of this, actually. It is very wrong that people use their religion to justify many acts of atrocious iniquity. I don't think that you're ever going to find a case where anybody of any particular dogma (or who takes up the flag of the absence of any) is of perfect character. What you ask for is an impossibility that, self-contradictorily, rejects an underlying appeal to justice through continuity.
Undeluded1 1 year ago
@funboy7979 Can you show me anywhere where Jesus(the leader of Christianity.) allows or commands anyone to bash, bully or murder gay people? Can you show me please. God has the power to say whats right and wrong, however its followers don't. No true Christian judges anyone for anything. That doesn't negate the fact that it is still wrong but Christians are told to love, not judge. We call those people "nominal christians" people who say they r but there life doesnt prove it.
JPBuysjr 1 year ago
@funboy7979 Can you prove that Christian are harassing, bullying, bashing, and murdering gays? Please show proof?
uncarvedrock 9 months ago
@uncarvedrock GFE --
Google
Fucking
Exists
funboy7979 9 months ago
@funboy7979 You said it and I'm not letting you off the hook. Please prove it if you can? That's what happens when you state something as fact. The burden of proof is on you.
uncarvedrock 9 months ago
@aaaavedon i am a Christian. and on behalf of those who call themselves Christians who have treated you in such a manner, I would like to sincerely apologize. You are so right. Christianity is not about hating people. I just want you to know that not all Christians are like that. There are some of us who are trying to follow our Calling and love and accept people, just as we saw Jesus doing in our Holy Book. I am so sorry for those Christians who do not act in this way.
joyxacts2024 1 year ago
@aaaavedon christian bigots are idiots, i agree, but lets remember what the bible teaches...
1. ALL sexual acts outside of marriage is sinful
2. Marriage is defined as between a man and a woman
a real christian should be promoting those points and against anything (including homosexuality and heterosexual fornication). that is not in those laws.
nwsaboy 11 months ago
@nwsaboy I agree. Any sex outside of marriage is considered sin. Whether it is heterosexual or homosexual.
It is dishonest to single out one and turn a blind eye to another. Keep watching!
Wildcard120 11 months ago
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@Tobytrim "It's just unknown to them"
--Right. So you agree this is an instance of a truth (a true proposition) someone doesn't know to be true.
So what you say is false. You have no case, punchy.
Knowledge is relativized to the person. The truth is not.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@Tobytrim "You are still confusing the event or entity itself with the value of a statement about it!"
--No I am not. "P" is true if and only if P. "The universe is expanding" is true if and only if the universe is, in fact, expanding.
You are still confusing the truth of a proposition with someone's knowledge of it. You are still confusing the truth of a proposition with someone's verifying it. Dumbass.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
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mypolicy9 1 year ago
@Tobytrim No you're lying too. Here is a direct quote from YOU:
B) To currently say it WAS true can only be contingent on proposition A. Truth requires knowledge!"
--See? You emphatically assert "Truth requires knowledge!" But it doesn't. We have seen this time and time again.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@Tobytrim Why are you contradicting yourself now?
You said "Give me an example of a truth that you are unaware of?"
--See? Obviously you think there are no truths that are unknown. But this is false. There ARE truths that are unknown.
"The universe is expanding" is a truth unknown to someone in Papua New Guinea who has no knowledge of the conditions of the universe.
So what you say is obvioiusly false.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
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@mypolicy9 " There ARE truths that are unknown "
Name one! If you can't, how can you say there are any?
""The universe is expanding" is a truth unknown to someone in Papua New Guinea who has no knowledge of the conditions of the universe"
No! the correct statement would be: no-one who doesn't know the universe is expanding , knows the universe is expanding.
No-one in Papua can offer that as a truth statement , if he doesn't know about it!
"
Tobytrim 1 year ago
@mypolicy9 "See? You emphatically assert "Truth requires knowledge!" But it doesn't. We have seen this time and time again."
No. It's an abitrary declaration you keep trying to slip past me!
The knowledge exists today that the universe IS and WAS expanding.
200 years ago, it couldn't even be an honest proposition to be evaluated as any kind of actuality.
The truth is the verified statement You are still confusing the event or entity itself with the value of a statement about it!
Tobytrim 1 year ago
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mypolicy9 1 year ago
@Tobytrim "The truth is the verified statement"
--No. "The truth" is a true proposition, verified or not. Stop confusing the truth of a proposition with the verification of it--or the knowledge of it. "P is true" does not mean "S verifies P." Nor does it mean "S knows P."
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@Tobytrim "It's just unknown to them"
--Right. So you agree this is an instance of a truth (a true proposition) someone doesn't know to be true.
So what you say is false. Knowledge is relativized to the person. The truth is not.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
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@mypolicy9 You're confusing "identity" logic of existence, etc often called a "truth value" With truth itself.
And you've gone around this circle to long too keep me from being bored with it.......(Yawn)
Tobytrim 1 year ago
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@Tobytrim The facts speak for themselves. We've proven there are true propositions some people don't know to be true. So what you say is false. The truth-value of a proposition is NOT contingent upon someone's knowing it to be true, but rather solely upon on actual states of affairs in the world. Q.E.D.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@mypolicy9 ". There ARE truths that are unknown."
That "the universe is expanding" may not be known to the people of Papua New Guinea, but it is NOT now unknown. - It's just unknown to them.
If you were to make that statement to them, they could evaluate the TRUTH of it!
Your arguments are really absurd!!
Tobytrim 1 year ago
@Tobytrim "It's just unknown to them"
--Right. So you agree this is an instance of a truth (a true proposition) someone doesn't know to be true.
So what you say is false. You have no case, punchy.
Knowledge is relativized to the person. The truth is not.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@Tobytrim ""universe is expanding" was not true 200 years ago because it was not known." Strawman too! The proposal was not known to be true or false!"
--But you keep saying "truth is contingent on knowledge." That means, punchy, that the truth of P requires someone knowing that P. But this claim is proven to be false because it entials a contradiction, as I have already demonstrated.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@mypolicy9 "" that the truth of P requires someone knowing that P"
Again Strawman! P relies on knowledge of P . Truth cannot be ascribed to what is not known!
"
Tobytrim 1 year ago
@Tobytrim "Truth cannot be ascribed to what is not known!"
--False. Yes it can. The proposition expressed by the sentence "The unvierse is expanding" is still true, even if no one 200 years ago knew it was true. Therefore, truth is ascribed to a proposition some don't know to be true. According to you, truth requires knowledge. So, since John does not know P, P is not true. Bill knows that P, so P is true. Contradiction. You don't have a case, punchy. Sorry.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
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@mypolicy9" False. Yes it can.
Prove it! ............Give me an example of a truth which is not known?
The proposition expressed by the sentence "The unvierse is expanding" is still true"
Yes, It "IS" true. and "it IS " is now a viable proposition;. That is because the universe IS expanding.
This is not an example of a truth which is not known. It is an example of something that WAS what it WAS, 200 years ago, as it IS what it IS today.
We now know this to be the truth?
Tobytrim 1 year ago
@mypolicy9 Ha ha! I get the distinct impression that you are persisting with this silly circular argument hoping to catch me on some kind of semantic faux pas?
Are you that shallow?
Tobytrim 1 year ago
@mypolicy9 Here is the remedial analogy just for you ;
A)You don't know if someones answer is the truth until you get it.
B) You cannot get an answer till you ask the question.
C) You cannot ask the question till you know what quetion to ask.
D) 200 years ago, for example, who could ask who whether the universe is expanding and have the truth?
Tobytrim 1 year ago
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@Tobytrim ""universe is expanding" was not true 200 years ago because it was not known" Strawman too! The proposal was not known to be true or false!"
--But you keep saying "truth is contingent on knowledge". That means, punchy, that the truth of P requires knowing that P. But this claim is proven to be false, as I have already demonstrated.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@Tobytrim Precisely for this complication philosophers have said that propositions are abstract entities like numbers, whose truth value cannot depend on persons since their truth-values depend ONLY on facts and states of affairs in the world. "P" is true if and only if P. Even if no one exists to entertain a true proposition, it is still true nevertheless. Your view entails a logical contradiction, so you desperately need to modify it. Here...
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@Tobytrim "And here, yet again, you make the admission that truth requires a proposition!"
--Of course because like I said a "truth" is a true proposition. A falsehood is a false proposition. But it doesn't follow that the proposition has to be entertained or known by some particular person in order to be true!!!!!!! The proposition expressed by the sentence "the universe is expanding" is true only if the universe is, in fact, expanding. Dipshit! End of story!
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@Tobytrim "Who do you suppose is doing the proposing???!"
--The proposition "the universe is expanding" doesn't have to be proposed by Bill across the street for it to be true. It is still true regardless that someone "proposes" it.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
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@mypolicy9 "The proposition "the universe is expanding" doesn't have to be proposed by Bill across the street for it to be true"
No..It doesn't need to be proposed by Bill - but someone with a mind needs to.
"It is still true regardless that someone "proposes" it."
Really?? A proposal that hasn't been proposed??A true one at that!!! Lol!!
Talk about a contradiction of definitions!!
Tobytrim 1 year ago
@Tobytrim "A proposition does not exist until the concept is known"
--Well, surely people had a grasp of the concept of "a universe" and the concept of "expansion" 200 years ago. So even though the proposition expressed by the sentence "The universe is expanding" was not known, the proposition was still true nevertheless. There exist plenty of true propositions not known to be true. Not everyone is a scientist, for instance. Do you seriously think everyone is omniscient??
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@mypolicy9 "Well, surely people had a grasp of the concept of "a universe" and the concept of "expansion" 200 years ago"
Haha! It took you a while to get to this one!! I even pre-empted it but erased my comment .
We're back to our fortune teller. If it had been, it wouldn't have been a truth statement. To make it as such, would be a lie. If it was speculated, the speculation would have been later proved right when it could called a truth statement in the light of knowledge. T
Tobytrim 1 year ago
@mypolicy9 " So even though the proposition expressed by the sentence "The universe is expanding" was not known,"
And here, yet again, you make the admission that truth requires a proposition!
Who makes the proposition, and how can they know what to make the proposition about?.
Tobytrim 1 year ago
@Tobytrim "We're back to our fortune teller. If it had been, it wouldn't have been a truth statement."
--What are you talking about? The proposition "You lose 5 dollars on Jan 1 2010" is always true. Someone's knowledge has nothing to do with whether it is true or false.
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@mypolicy9"What are you talking about? The proposition "You lose 5 dollars on Jan 1 2010" is always true" You yourself said it wasn't truth at the point she said it - It became the truth ... You called it belief , I think.
"Someone's knowledge has nothing to do with whether it is true or false"
Knowledge of the proposition is unquestionably required.
Are you saying that someone who makes a prophesy, is making an honest truth statement because it coincidentally comes true later?.
Tobytrim 1 year ago
@Tobytrim "You yourself said it wasn't truth at the point she said it - It became the truth ..."
--I did not. I said it becomes known to be true. If there was ambiguity about that, then it was probably my failure to be clear, since it is still the case that tensed propositions are always true because they mention times. "You lose 5 dollars on Jan 1 2020" is ALWAYS TRUE. It is true at ALL TIMES
mypolicy9 1 year ago
@mypolicy9
I know a developmentally "challenged " disabled person who won $1500 on the state lottery , poetic justice ?
What would ole Mr.Modus say about that ! Hell , I'll go you one further . What would Mr. Tollens say about that ?
bet they'd dig on that !
hieronomy 1 year ago
@Tobytrim "Knowledge of the proposition is unquestionably required."
--No it is not. Over and over again I show your arguments for this claim are all invalid.
The proposition expressed by the sentence "the universe is expanding" is true now, and it was true back then, even if someone did not know it was true. Prove to me this proposition was NOT true!!!!!
mypolicy9 1 year ago