John Piper - Sickened By The Ugliness Of Their Own Sinfulness

[TurnIntoGhosts]

This is sickening. How anyone can get behind this ignorant, destructive way of thinking is beyond me.

Coveting your neighbour's possessions is a sin but corrupting a child's mind with this unfounded, harmful tripe is not?

You can make excuses all you want, but in the end, you're brainwashing kids into thinking they are worthless and can only be saved by a life of servitude and devotion to an intangible being that professes to love but who's actions show something different altogether. Despicable

[Zuriox]

@TurnIntoGhosts See, you can't use some biblical terms, like "sin", and overlook all the other biblical facts, in the end, It's a matter of faith, if you do believe in the bible, this isn't harmful or bad at all for the child, it's wonderful, relieving, 'cause we've got Jesus that loves us anyway and calls us to sanctification by grace and we're PLEASED to follow him, not out of fear. Or you don't believe in anything from it (though how bad we are seems obvious to me). A matter of perspective.

[TurnIntoGhosts]

@Zuriox What other biblical facts? The few good things in there? There are so many ways in which kids can grow up to be amazing human beings, telling them they are wicked from birth and can only get better through jesus is definitely not one of them. We know enough about psychology to know that you're doing more damage this way than good.

Believe/have faith all you want, the facts are against you and your perspective is still twisted and vile.

[MrMathjordan]

Jesus died so that consciousness of sins should be removed. 

[TheLaughingOut]

This moron thinks that because he has such self-hatred that everyone should also feel that way.

Fuck you, John Piper.

[Zuriox]

@TheLaughingOut Your post kind of proves Piper's point, doesn't it? Face it, and don't worry, you don't get suicidal or anything bad at all once you realise how BAD you are, you become totatly in amazed, in awe of God's grace and mercy, and it is GOOD! :)

[TheLaughingOut]

@Zuriox If his point was that when you insult the entire human race you get people angry then yeah, I proved his point. Trust me, I've been a Christian, nothing but guilt and fear, especially when your a hell-bound queer like me.

[brendos444]

An Orthodox response to this untrue statement is that all men are created in the image and likeness of God. Therefore all men are able to do good. The problem is that were born into a world of death decay and sin. Children learn sinfulness from those around them. Sin is a disease that requires healing. The appropriate response to a sinner is to love them and NOT to condemn them. Only thru forgiveness will any child see God. The Calvinist project will fall down with this sort of teaching

[xDSlimz]

@brendos444 The only fruit we can bear, and the good things we can do are through Jesus. Not us. We are bad people

[brendos444]

@xDSlimz We are not totally bad ppl. even the worst of us still bears the image of God. we have a tendency towards both bad and good. The problem of the bad still remains and that is the problem. The problem of evil is what Jesus came to destroy. To release us from the bondage to sin and death so that we can be truly and totally human again. I.e. to bear the image of our creator which has been deformed since the fall. God wants to restore us, not punish us as Calvinists suggest

[xDSlimz]

@brendos444 When you say that God doesnt want to punish us you are denying who God is. He is a wrathful and just God. And yes, we are completely bad people. Its called total depravation. But at the same time, he loves us and wants a relationship with us. He is fully wrath and judgement, but also fully loving and kind. and many other things fully. I agree with you halfly

[brendos444]

@xDSlimz No God is Love. Love is not one of many attributes of God, it is the essense of his triune being. the wrath of God used in scripture means that his righteousness and love will be experienced wrath by those who hate God. That is why the scriptures say that God is a consuming fire. To those who love God, his appearance is experienced as life and warmth. This judicial understanding of God is really a big mistake brought in by Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th century.

[brendos444]

btw, the views I expressed above have been held by Eastern Orthodox Christians for 2000 years. The Anselm/Calvin view of God really leaves no room for love because a God who damns those who he preordains to damnation can not be a God of love. Further, the judicial framework that Anselm forces onto scripture was not the interpretation of the apostles or of the early church fathers. It is completely alien to Jewish Christian thought. the idea that God's honor is offended & therefore he needs..

[brendos444]

..to be satisfied or appeased goes right against scriptural, apostolic and patristic teachings and can only be substantiated by taking verses out of context which is what Anselm did, which is what the reformers did. this God who hates us but loves us at the same time is incoherent. Furthermore, it puts forgiveness at nought. Afterall a God who requires satisfaction can not be said to have forgiven in any sense. So we must reject this notion if we at all want to understand God's righteousness

[tweezy100]

@brendos444 sin is not 'learned' as you say, you have to understand it as an inherited disease that existed within you from inception, its a corruption down to the core of your being. It is not like the flu, or a learned behavioral pattern, that smacks of the secular understanding of religion. Secular philosophies teach that humanity is basically good, but this is not christian ideology. We 'were' created good, but we have been corrupted and no longer does good come naturally.

[gabiotta]

Wow, he has some dark inside him and he thinks it is in everybody else.

"Cesspool of my own heart?"

All we can actually learn from this clip is that the speaker hates himself for wanking as much as he does...

[Dtrumpet50]

Well said, very encouraging !

[koala8]

i dont think a child is developed enough to understand that s/he is "bent, corrupt, broken...etc"...LOL!!

[MrJamiegosney]

Would you let this guy babysit your children? I wouldn't, he's super scary...this is not the behaviour of a normal adult.

[anotherxredeemed]

@CornwallSteve it's incredibly clear what the purpose and point of Piper's analogy is: parents need to have a firsthand experience of the ugliness and depravity of sin under the law and then receive the Gospel. A professing Christian who never experienced true repentance (which true and enduring faith springs from) will not be able to show their kids the wonder of the Gospel. It is only when the knowledge of the ugliness of sin is revealed to us that the Gospel shines its brightest.

[iamjohnday]

Don't be blinded by emotion. Always listen to the actual words being said and weigh them in your heart. Don't ever be caught up by the spectacle or performance. So many people get led blindly astray because of this. I'm not accusing Mr. Piper, even though he shows great emotion. The sheer power of God can stir great emotion.

I'm only stating words of the wise, not my own.

[mouthbeats11l2l]

wowww. that is right on John Piper. The Blood has to go all the way to the bottom. 

[blaznlex1]

The bible I read states "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."-matthew18:3 And, no, sin does not come from nowhere, it comes from the world in which we are brought into.

[UnrealHelix]

@aTrueHybrid Well John Piper is the preacher I listen to the most, on the podcasts etc. I can't think of a scripture to back it up, but I can't see how a child can sin before they're born or even have a chance to sin. Those people you're talking about don't know the character of the God revealed in the Bible...He would never condemn someone who can't even understand what sin/or/wrongdoing is

[UnrealHelix]

@aTrueHybrid He's saying both, well, in the Bible, God gives us both angles...I see what you're saying...we are sinner by nature, so we sin, but we're not judged because we're sinners, only because we sin. But the final judgement is only for those who die without being completely forgiven of their sins - by believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[UnrealHelix]

Now THIS IS THE GOSPEL, take it or leave it. Man, this is the Gospel! God bless John Piper.

[Skavar4000]

What a fool... he just discovered that doing good is a choice? Man is capable of evil or good... it only exists within us, and we make the choice every day.

Don't look outside yourself for control of either.

[UnrealHelix]

He's not a fool. He has salvation - the wisdom of God.

[PhreshAirFromGod]

This is So REALLLLLL!!!!!!!!!

[iamalostchildofGod]

:( i am a prisoner freely roaming .the sins of my heart is too much too bad even to be discussed.pride, my way, iam right attitude,my evil rebellion and all i know is not good.i understand that for these i must be punished i have fallen many times i still have to discover.i must be punished.i dont have faith only belief without foundation .i cant express my heart fully ccoz im ashamed.iam writing herre not boz im courageous but bcoz i know i cannot be seen just expressing my views.God help me.

[dchangsy]

This sounds like the version of gospel message that historical preachers such as Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon preached but is no longer preached much these days. We are more used to a different version that gives us the idea that Jesus essentially was sacrificed to redeem our self esteem.

The bibical gospel requires that I first see and admit to my sinful depravity (even for Christians, 1 John 1:8-10) before forgiveness can be discussed. Our carnal mind rejects and hates this idea.

[DanEvans66]

I think Piper has lost his mind! The gospel is not about guilt and shame, it is about love and forgiveness. It is about power over sin, not condemnation about our sin!

[minty11]

Man this video came at just the right time for me. Thank you John for this message. Today I choose to die to myself, take up my cross, and continue in the grace and strength found in Christ.

Before this I've been trying to live "the good Christian life" on my own strength and then beating myself up when I fail, wondering why I (a "good person") kept doing these "bad things". I'm not good; I'm bad. I need a Savior.

While I've read this in the Bible, God has allowed it to become real to me.

[cornwallsteve]

Where does Piper get the idea that we must "crawl through the sess pit" until we get to the bottom as this is the "only" place we can find Jesus' blood - "not half way down"....?

BUT... the Bible says: "...by the blood of Jesus... Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience..." (Heb 10)

[PaulmanC]

@cornwallsteve I think this is what he means. Ephesians 2:1-10 touches on it, I think. The way I see it, unless we truly understand the depth of our sinfulness and spiritual deadness in relation to God, unless we realize how we were "children of wrath" (i.e. God was going to fairly bring about the justice our sinfulness/offense demanded), then we won't truly understand what Jesus' blood "saved" us from.  We'll just think Jesus is necessary for heaven, but I wasn't that evil a person initially.

[cornwallsteve]

eph 2 describes the former sinful state of a reborn Christian (quote: "in times past..) This was indeed exceedingly sinful. But nowhere do we read that Christ's blood is 'beneath' our sin and that as Christians we must "crawl through the sess pit" etc. We had better stick to scriptural truth and avoid dramatic gestures / urgent sounding invented metaphors that dont reflect reality. is it true that the blood of Christ is only found at the bottom of the Christian's sess pit - not half way down? ..

[csu12]

Cornwall- i believe what Piper is saying is that Christ's blood is our foundation.The sins that once took root in our hearts have been uprooted now, and Christ's blood is now the foundation. Yes, we will still sin, but those sins can no longer take root in our hearts. Someone who claims to be saved, but still loves their sin and hates God, is someone who it seems wud have an unregenrate heart. Pipers point is that understanding your sin is apart of repentance. when u repent, what do u repent of?

[cornwallsteve]

this is interesting! reading what csu and paulman wrote: "I think this is what he means..." and "I believe what piper is saying..." Why does Piper need interpreting in this mysterious manner?

Piper said what Piper meant. He said the blood of Christ is only found at the bottom of the Christian's sess pit - not half way down. This is disturbing.

[csu12]

Cornwall- Well, obviously we (CSU and Paulman) are not John Piper, and so for us to say "he meant this" for certain wudn't make too much sense. It also wudn't make too much sense for me (or u) to hear a metaphor, ignore the explanation of that metaphor, and then attack that metaphor based on my (or your) ideas of it. His explanation defines and clarifies his intent. Be disturbed if you will, but i believe that you would agree that understanding sin is apart of repentance.

[csu12]

Cornwall- i would also ask, where in the Bible does it say that the literal Blood of Christ is halfway down inside our physical heart?

[cornwallsteve]

csu - well it doesn't say anything like Piper's description I don't think - neither half way nor at the bottom etc. ..

But we are told that by the blood of Christ our hearts are "sprinkled" (see quote above) and therefore the heart of a born again Christian is a "true heart" (Heb 10) - not a 'sess pit'.

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin at conversion - it's an act of God as a person humbles himself under God, repents of sinful self & turns to Christ.

[cornwallsteve]

"A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you," (Ez 36:26)

[PaulmanC]

cornwallsteve - I think the root of this issue that you have with John Piper's statement has to do with saying things that aren't directly from the Bible. If we are only called to speak truth AS STATED in the Bible, then John Piper has definitely erred. But this is now how life works. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as preachers - only Bible RECITERS. By this logic, sermons are unbiblical. Only reading out the Bible is allowed. Although perhaps only then in Greek and Hebrew?

[PaulmanC]

Secondly, cornwallsteve, I think the difficulty you're having is because Piper used a metaphor. You said, "We had better stick to scriptural truth and avoid dramatic gestures / urgent sounding invented metaphors that dont reflect reality." So would it be ok if Piper used a dramatic, urgent sounding metaphor that DID reflect reality - Biblical, God exalting reality?

I understood the gist of what Piper meant, and it sounded Biblical and God exalting to me. And so I tried to convey that meaning

[PaulmanC]

So in summary, let us argue about whether Piper's metaphor was in line with what God has told us or not, IN MEANING. Let us NOT argue about whether the specific word-picture Piper used can be found in the Bible, because by that standard, we should denounce any pastor who tells you something like, "God wants to be a greater treasure to you than even your beautiful wife Sally", because nowhere in the Bible does God mention Sally. The example is extreme & nitpicky, but the principle is the same.

[PaulmanC]

I hope my comments came across in a normal tone. I don't intend to sound angry. It's just that I want you to give Piper the benefit of the doubt, and try to figure out what he really meant in case there is Biblical, God-loving truth to be found there, before you decide if it's heretical or not. We need to work well together God's people. I'm all for sniffing out mistruths or overstatements. I don't think Piper's explanation was perfect. But let me try to summarize Piper's message again...

[PaulmanC]

Summary of Piper's thought: unless we

1) FULLY appreciate our evilness; and

2) Realize that Jesus' blood totally forgives even that level of evilness from top to BOTTOM;

then we will never FULLY appreciate the wonderfulness of Jesus' blood. Personally.

That's why he used the metaphor of "clawing your way" to the "bottom". He's talking about taking in the full depth and implications of our sin - yes - but ALSO the full depth and implications of Jesus' redeeming/restoring blood. That = joy.

[the13thof12]

@PaulmanC I had the pleasure of seeing this sermon in person. It was GREAT!

[PaulmanC]

@the13thof12 Cool! (Was this at Bethlehem Baptist?) On that note, I had the pleasure of hugging John Piper and then telling him he was my idol ;) Ha ha! (not at exactly the same time, though) - if you Google "paulman hugged idol John Piper" you can see what I'm talking about :P

[csu12]

Cornwall- You are right, it doesn't say anything about the literal blood of Christ collecting in our heart. But Piper was using this metaphor (picture) to describe how evil sin really is, and that when we sin, it affects us, and we repent, not to regain salvation, but because we have been awakened to how sin dishonors God. So when we repent, we are understanding what we are repenting of. Piper was just explaining that repentance has in it, a hatred of sin, not an indifference to it.

[ChristusVlCTOR]

@PaulmanC It's more Rom 7:18 & 24 if you ask me, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

One must be careful tho, to remember that this is Pre-Blood, Pre-Gospel, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:6

[MaxAgond]

EXACTLY what I needed to hear right now. Speak Word of God.

[ThyRavenAscend]

Yes, thank you!

[robbykband]

Absolutely right on