Easter They Don't Tell You About & Resurrection - A.E. #545

[SinnFein4ever]

YAY for bondage-bunnies!

[patrickthesaint]

If Satan went back in time and invented false saviours, then how do we know Jesus isn't one of them?

[Naiant]

Man, I hate this sort of crap. Most of what he says about the Pagan gods is just wrong. For instance, Mithras was born from a rock, not a virgin (unless the rock was a virgin), and we don't have a birthday for him. There are similar problems with the other deities. The story of each is as different from each other as the story of Jesus is different from them. It makes non-Christians (of which I am one) look like idiots when they repeat this sort of misinformation.

[danielrrjd]

@Naiant that was very honest

[Shavarnarak]

List of Life-Death-Rebirth Deities;

Julunggul, Wawalag, Tammuz, Ishtar, Quetzalcoatl, Xipe Totec, Melqart, Zalmoxis, Osiris, Amun-Min, Atunis, Cronus, Dionysius, Persephone, Izanagi, Heitsi Eibib, Kaknu, Baldr, Gullveig, Attis, Mithras, Veles, Jarilo, Dummuzi, Inana and Jesus.

There's probably more.

[Shavarnarak]

@Shavarnarak

Notably, some of these deities of course spawned from cultures completely unrelated to eachother, which shows the life-death-rebirth thing is a common theme. It probably has to do with the changing of the seasons or things like sunrises.

Where a season (or the sun) dies and is reborn again when it comes back.

[danielrrjd]

@Shavarnarak Let me respectfully give you a quote:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. John 14:12

Maybe all these people believed in the Father? and reached what he could do?

I just feel it's worth talking to you about this. Because as you know our universe is RELATIVE and what you sense as time is not absolute (it depends on your perception)

[Rockster969]

@danielrrjd Let me less than respectfully say piss off with your white noise of nonsensical scripture.

[danielrrjd]

@Rockster969 I recommend a healthy dose of Psilocybin mushrooms. Not for the sake of getting high, but to experiment the actual relativity of time and space. Einstein was very right, and real, and sensical, and logical...

[Rockster969]

@shavarnarakLet me less than respectfully say piss off with your white noise of nonsensical scripture.

[neverAcquiesce]

Dead on. Jesus is just the latest in a long line of retreading the same myth.

And the crucfied bunny is AWESOME.

[Lilart1981]

People worship the Devil & that's the true "God" that they serve. They say Satan went back in time to trick everybody? Why are they giving him so much credit? They say the "Good God" is more powerful but he always seems to get outsmarted by Satan!

It is coincidential that Jesus is real but all the other "Saviors" who came before him is mythical.

I love how religious folk always has an answer. They don't care if it's right or wrong!

A truely HUMBLE person would say "I don't know!"

[Lilart1981]

Damn he made a hell of a point! If Jesus was resurrected 3 days later then there is no sacrafice! I would sacrafice myself every week if I knew I could come back a couple days later! I honestly think Neo from the matrix is more of a hero because at least he died at the end of the trilogy!

That's another Loophole! I never understood that it's not ok to kill UNLESS it's in Jesus's name! I've noticed a few people reference Hitler & he's not really a bad guy because he also killed in Jesus's name

[andrewh817]

The hilarious thing about that devil going back in time rationalization is that you could apply that argument to Christianity as well!

[sullivanthemighty]

Beware of Lucifer the great deceiver. For he is the master of the Flux Capacitor!!

[masternick100]

Satan drives a  Delorean!

[DandAinTac]

I have a big question about the crucifixion of Jesus. There are at least 500 billion galaxies in the universe. If intelligent life arises on average, only once on average per galaxy (a conservative estimate, considering our galaxy alone has about 500 billion stars), then this means that Jesus has to get nailed to the cross 500 billion times on each of those worlds to save the inhabitants of those planets--right? OUCH! What did Jesus do to piss off his father so bad?

[db10001110101]

So let me get this straight. Jesus came back as a bunny and the eggs represent Gods love and the chocolate represents Jesus's poo. Oh, I get it.

[2crazy4pf]

they crucified the easter bunny! lmfao. hmm what to do on easter? kill a bunny, skin it, roast it, offer it to a kid. once he sinks his teeth on the juicy meat tell him it's the easter bunny. lol jk, that's just mean.

[viridismonasteriense]

The Holocaust did not happen in the name of Jesus. Hitler was a Catholic, but he specifically states in 'Mein Campf' that he didn't pick on the Jews for their religion. It may be part of the equation, but it was not a religious move. His hatred was based on race, not faith.

[AtheistEvolution]

@viridismonasteriense I would have to agree with that. Hitler talked about how what he was doing was "gods will" but the holocaust was clearly NOT about religion.

It was about dogma, nationalist dogma.

Well said virid

[AtheistEvolution]

@viridismonasteriense I would have to agree with that. Hitler talked about how what he was doing was "gods will" but the holocaust was clearly NOT about religion.

It was about dogma, nationalist dogma.

Well said

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution No, indeed the Jews were not targeted for their beliefs.

But on the other side of the equation, religion did play a great part in the motivations of the Nazi Party.

In the words of Joseph Goebbels in 1928:

"One day soon National Socialism will be the religion of all Germans. My Party is my church, and I believe I serve the Lord best if I do his will, and liberate my oppressed people from the fetters of slavery. That is my gospel."

(continued)

[AtheistEvolution]

@viridismonasteriense Religion played a part in the expression of their goals, but never their motivation behind them. Goebbels statement spoke to his fervour for nationalist dogma, not for religion. He was likening that ideology with the fundamental nature of a religious one. They certainly spoke of religion but only in a poetic sense, and in a manner to most easily garner public support. I just can't blame religion for the holocaust, it seems intellectually dishonest.

Well said though

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution A lot of Hitler's Third Reich was overtly dramatic. The symbolism. The speeches. The choreographed gatherings, the greetings, flags, uniforms...all so theatrical. If anyone'd just said 'tone it down a notch!'

It was designed to be ritualistic, to evoke similar religious zeal and redirect it towards their Party Leader. Total obedience and blind worship.

The Pope has rituals, pompous gatherings, symbols, greetings, uniforms...

Hitler undoubtedly learned from the best.

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution No, I agree that religion was not the prime motivator for the holocaust. Hitler himself stated that he did not seek out to annihilate the Jews for their beliefs.

But I can't see how anyone can say 'Christianity is the source of morality' or 'Christians have better morals' when the mayority of those that followed Hitler unquestionably and were the hands that committed his atrocities were undoubtedly Christian.

[AtheistEvolution]

@viridismonasteriense I can't disagree with most of what you said, but I really dislike using Hitler as an example of the immorality of religion. Religion didn't seem to inform his morality. That would be like using Stalin or Mao as a standard for atheist morals.

Just doesn't follow.

If you are to use an example for religious morality you have to use a person whose religious convictions informed terrible and immoral actions, not one whose actions were incidental to religion

Good post though!

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution I soo want to agree with you, but I believe that the tiniest things contribute to the bigger picture and religion wasn't a tiny thing in Hitler's life, as he was baptized and raised a Roman Catholic, attended monastery school and was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church. As a young man he was confirmed a "soldier of Christ" and was studying to become a priest.

And all the while his antisemitism grew and did not conflict with his Xtian beliefs whatsoever...

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution Hitler even used Jesus as the ultimate example of a fighter against the Jews in his many speeches and he really believed he was anointed by God, his Providence, to be the leader of Germany. In his brainwashed nature he grew a superiority complex and ultimately aimed to even change Christianity itself in Germany to make himself a worshipped prophet.

Hitler then turned from Christianity, without becoming an atheist (in his own words he aimed to "stamp them out") (continued)

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution (contd) And for some reason he parted ways with it and started insulting it, thinking Germany would've been better off with the Japanese beliefs. Made them stronger warriors. Fitting words for a man who was losing his war.

My point being that his religion made him who he was; if it hadn't brainwashed him I do believe it still wouldn't have done him any good. He was a man who literally believed he had God on his side.

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution But I'm not solely blaming religion, let me say that loud and clear. It's an element of his personality that made him who he was, but it wasn't the part that made him succesful or ruthless. Perhaps just ambitious.

He himself was also a product of his time. There are many altar boys who did not become mass-murderers. There were also good Nazis who saved lives risking their own. But there were also many who became deluded by Hitler's dream of Germany.

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution " That would be like using Stalin or Mao as a standard for atheist morals."

They were both communists. Socialists. Stalin never condemned fascism because it was too similar to his Stalinist communism.

Atheism is a lack of belief and it does not preach to have any moral code or doctrine. Christians do claim to have moral superiority over everyone, forgetting the fact that their morals don't come from the Bible, but from modern day society.

(contd)

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution (contd) Christians are *supposed* to be good, moral, and righteous, but then when they condone such things as Hitler's fascism or slavery or racism or subjugation of women, they show their true colours: that their morals don't come from the Bible which preaches all those things (not the holocaust, but still the slaughter of all unbelievers, even your own family) and that they don't need the Bible to be good. They can be better, if they just rid themselves of their mental bonds.

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution "Religion didn't seem to inform his morality."

I agree with you on that. Hitler himself called the shots, he was not divinely mandated by his God to rid the world of the Jews; he was just influenced by this Lutheran anti-semitic interpretation of the Bible and his belief that he was guided by 'Providence' would only make his superiority complex worse.

But it did take religion -or similar, like Hitler's national socialism- for the good people of Germany to do evil things.

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution Crap. Those were a lot of messages. Sorry if it seems too much. I try to keep it short, but the thoughts keep piling up.

[tdjdk]

@AtheistEvolution

*pfft* an example of religious morality?

Just turn to the pope. Quick quiz :

Which of the following does the pope find more immoral?

1. Child abuse

2. Genocide

3. Condoms

[AtheistEvolution]

@tdjdk True enough. :)

[Atrofia2]

@tdjdk dahhhh obviously condoms, they are the work of satan

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution (contd) Christianity inspired the anti-semitism that in its turn inspired the holocaust. It all started with Martin Luther...

Bernhard Rust, Minister of Education in Nazi Germany wrote in 1933:

"I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp."

Hans Schemm, Bavarian Minister of Education and Culture's slogan: "Our religion is Christ, our politics Fatherland!"

[viridismonasteriense]

@AtheistEvolution (contd) Nationalism and Religion got intentionally mixed up to the point that Hitler was preached to be God's appointed leader of the Nazi Party and Germany.

Nowadays Christians put the blame solely on Hitler and deny Hitler's upbringing & that he was a theist altogether, lie that he was an atheist OR say that Hitler only proves the Bible right since it predicted there'd be 'false Messiahs'.

They don't see that Hitler is just as bad as Yahwe. They refuse to even think it.

[Naiant]

You're working with some seriously bad sources. The details you give of the Pagan deities' lives are simply not true. For instance, Isis was not a virgin; she had sex with a phallus she had made for Osiris. He was not followed around by anyone, let alone three people. And so on.

I'm a Pagan, so I'm not invested in whether Christianity is true or not. But I do like stories about my own gods to be told right.

[yahshuah29]

@Naiant I must say that actually it is you who are mistaken! You may be a pagan but you know nothing of the Gods of kemet judging from your comment you have not been initiated in any mystery school not alone one that knows the mysteries of isis and osiris! Stop pretending to know something you do not! I dont mean to knock you or your beliefs but they are only beliefs! The religion of kemet was not a religion or a belief it is & was a science & historical preservation for the descendants of kemet

[LouisPlume]

The "Crusades" "inquisition" is getting really boring, there are far more atrocities than those two examples in History. The attempted invasion by Spain of England was a Catholic crussade. The extermiination of all the Jews in England was a Christian crusade, the 30 yrs war. There are just loads and loads, lets be a bit more immaginative here in our examples.

[gir908922]

I've actually had an apologist tell me that Jesus traveled around the world before he was cruified, so that's why there are so many similarities in messiah stories.

[CO2Junkie]

Atheism is like the Consumer Reports for theism.

[JOEFRO2]

Check out "The Golden Bough" if you want to know more about the Savior myth.

[creepyoldman2]

im pretty sure that some of this stuff has been disproven. Zeitgeist caught some flak for it. not to say that jesus is real, but im not exactly sure if this information is correct.

[ctvwr]

@creepyoldman2

It is unfortunate that Zeitgeist had that stuff in it. The specific story presented in Zeitgeist is garbage, but much of the stuff about the preponderance of saviour gods and the story about the church claiming demonic mimicry is true. I loathe that conspiracy nut movie, but don't let its mere association with this idea change your mind.

[Wraithofvolsunga]

@creepyoldman2

Zeitgeist made some additional claims that were false, but what they said here is accurate.

[sarcasmagasm]

Which roman god is he talking about ? Addus ? Im unfamiliar with it and not sure if Im even hearing it correctly, how is it spelled ? Id like to google it.

[jimbrown257]

@sarcasmagasm

It's Attis.

[ChaosWillThrive]

That satan, he's so clever. Gosh, always the trickster, messing with god like that. Hawhawhaw.

But, seriously? So now Satan can time travel, as well as creating his own breed of little fake Jesus'? ...

[jimbrown257]

@ChaosWillThrive

No no no; Satan can't travel back in time, that's just silly. He can, however, see into the future. That is how he knew to make all the little fake Jesi.

[kaichi23]

@jimbrown257 Love the plural for Jesus :P

look a herd of Jesi all walking on water!

[Loa4EVER]

The bunny it's cute :D

[Einsteinian99]

Jesus is not a myth! He mows my lawn once a week! Oh, that Jesus, yes he is a myth and probably never existed. Miracles? Grow up you 5 year olds!

[lgbuzals]

@Einsteinian99 Yes, "Geez-us" not "Hey-sus"! :D

[Thunderstick1971]

That Satan! Always messing with people and using time travel to trick us, so clever. Why didn't god stop satan from going "to the dark side" in the 1st place? The same reason that Batman never kills the Joker, he needs the devil so that you will need him.

[Xxninja195xX]

@Thunderstick1971 Batman has morals,god does not.

[JovialEel]

@Thunderstick1971 Or it could be because the charlatans that wrote the bible were too stupid to process information in a logically concise manner and didn't realize all the loopholes of their claims of omni-potence,benevolence and omniscience.

[Cootabux]

That story about "the devil did it!" Actually, that "devil" excuse was started by an early church father, Justin Martyr, when he was confronted with pagan saviors having the same attributes as jesus. That was the excuse he came up with, as crazy as it sounds, he tried it. I guess he figured he could get away with it at that period of church history with all it's superstition. Unfortunately, in many ways we haven't advanced much.

[odder999]

zeeitgeist takes the facts and exaggerate them too much. They are correct in their argument, but some of their facts are off.

[BRtankbuster]

Well, that's quite inaccurate. There's quite a strong case to be made for the existence of a character named Jesus.

What he did during his life, on the other hand, is most likely made up or exaggerated.

[JJGMTS]

To my knowledge, there is no extra-biblical contemporary evidence that attests to the existence of someone named Jesus who did what is reported in the bible.

[BRtankbuster]

Both Flavius Josephus and Pliny (the older one) mentioned some kind of preacher by the name of Jeshua was running around in Palestine around 25-30 AD.

[JJGMTS]

Josephus wasn't contemporary, though, and the section in his writing describing Jesus is largely regarded by historians as having been altered at a later date. Pliny was not contemporary either, and all his writing shows is that there were Christians in the first century - he never mentions a character named Jesus.

[BRtankbuster]

Well, what contemporary historians were there who investigated Palestinian history?

Also, the sheer fabrication of the story is impressive. See Christopher Hitchens Fairtytales and Myths.

[JJGMTS]

None - and that's precisely why I doubt that Jesus existed.

I'm not sure that fact that a story is very bizarre gives it credibility. For me, it is not believable because it is incredible.

[BRtankbuster]

So you just dismissed two historians that did mention him because they weren't contemporary, and now you're admitting that there were no contemporary historians. So what do you expect? All the evidence that we could expect there to be if Jesus had indeed existed, is there.

And the story is so clearly fabricated precisely to make it fit with some crazy preacher. The unnecessary construction to make Jesus of Nazareth be born in Bethlehem, for example.

[JJGMTS]

I dismiss Josephus because the section that refers to Jesus was tampered with. I dismiss Pliny because he doesn't even mention Jesus. The fact that they were both not contemporary is also important.

All I'm saying is that there is not sufficient evidence to claim that the this Jesus character definitely existed (or that he definitely didn't exist). His historicity is at least to an extent in doubt.

[BRtankbuster]

Well, there were two sections about Jesus in Josephus' work, actually, only one of which is dubious.

Tacitus also very clearly mentions Jesus.

Of course, the historicity of ANY historical person is in doubt to an extent, but it's really a stretch to say, like Zeitgeist, that the evidence points to his non-existence.

We have all the evidence we could expect for the life of a charismatic Jewish preacher.

[JJGMTS]

The first is likely to have been tampered with, and the second is only a passing mention - it is still a mention, however. Tacitus lived 100 years after Jesus, and many miles away - you can't really give much historical weight to such a passage.

Well, to an extent, but not a large one - we can see photos of Lincoln, read things written by him (etc), so we don't doubt his existence. We only doubt the historicity of someone if the evidence pointing to their existence is limited or questionable.

[JJGMTS]

There are no other contemporary historians (and there actually were some - I retract my earlier statement, made in haste) that mention him or what he did.

Granted, he is referred to in a few small passages, albeit fleetingly at best. I don't claim that he doesn't exist, just that to claim that he certainly did is very foolish, as the evidence indicating that he did is scarce.

[JJGMTS]

There are no other contemporary historians (and there actually were some - I retract my earlier statement, written in haste) that talk about him.

Granted, his is mentioned in a few places, though rather fleetingly at best, and I don't claim that he didn't exist, just that to claim that he definitely did is rather rash.

[xvirg]

This particular episode started off so negative & distasteful I couldn't get past the first 2 mins. I can usually take a lot. You actually may be hindering your own cause here. Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do.

[SomeGuyInWhite]

LOL

[aRchEneMy543]

you should watch zeitgeist echo there are a lot more "gods" that came before this "god"

[phoenixshade3]

Joseph Campbell! I was surprised to hear his name here. I'd also have to recommend his "Masks of God" series of books, in four volumes, to anyone who wants to explore the sources of much of today's religious symbolism, in particular Occidental Mythology, which covers the Judeo-Christian religions.

[EchoGamer]

Very interesting.

Only thing I knew was the Horus thing, had no idea about everything else.