John Piper - Why Doug Wilson?

[dartme18]

"Doug Wilson is a risk taker, we all know that."?

[trident343]

John piper will joyfully buddy up with anybody who 1) Believes in predestination and 2) de facto denies Sola Fide - Justification by faith alone

[LetReasonPrevail1]

Having someone taking a test for you is NOT good news. It is poor logic and really bad advice that flies directly in the face of the "self reliance"-type attitude that has made the U.S.A. the successful country that it is.

[LetReasonPrevail1]

By the way, Doug Wilson believes in overthrowing our current system of democratic representation & replacing it with a biblically-based gov't that makes laws in accordance with the Old Testament.

He also co-authored a lovely little booklet a few years back that extolled the virtues of the "Old South" in which he asserted that blacks lived in harmony as slaves to their white owners & that this was all supported by biblical law.

Nice, eh?

Bullshit is bullshit no matter how you package it.

[Dankster312]

@LetReasonPrevail1 : I recommend reading Doug Wilson's pamplet "Southern Slavery, As it Was", to see what sort of things he says when he's not filtering for his audience. He directly says that Blacks had it better under slavery than they've ever had it since and slaveowners were great Christians, with a better Christian community than we've had before or since. He has a number of associations with White supremacists. Wilson's view of a theocratic America under his ideology is sick.

[lordrangerful]

doug wilson is the YALIBAN OF THE PALOUSE and I knew him when he was GAY oh well ,, things change because he was an ugly dude anyway

[aLOVINGinfidel]

Why can't you people keep your imaginary friends to yourself?

[LetReasonPrevail1]

@aLOVINGinfidel

Oh, come on. What's the fun in that? Plus, haven't you ever heard of the magical transformative power of group think?

Here's how it works:

If you believe in and talk to an imaginery friend, you will considered insane.

But if can get lots of other people to pretend to believe in and pretend to talk to the same imaginery person, then you will be referred to as religious.

How cool and / or retarded is that?

Cheers,

And let reason prevail (some day I hope)

[bobbiespants]

And...wait for it...there was that genetic fallacy I was talking about.

Cheers, Quake City. I'm always up for a good discussion, but life's too short to get into bitter disputes with fellow Christians. If you're ever in Lynchburg, VA, you're welcome to visit Providence Church. We would welcome you to the table.

Until then, in the words of the immortal Jack Sparrow, "I wash my hands of this weirdness."

[QuakeCityRockers]

The thing that sucks for you is that all you have Roman Catholicism and Federal Vision. I have the bible and the history of the reformed faith locked up in the creeds you dont! Romans 4:4-6! Look at the failure and imputation of sin in Adam in the Covenant of Works and the Deliverance and Salvation in Christ in the Covenant of Grace! Romans 5:12-21! You cant deal with the text! WLC 70-73! Your claim to believe in Sola Fide is a counterfeit claim meant to deceive!

[QuakeCityRockers]

All errors are not equal some errors associated with Rome or Doug Wilson or FV is eternally damning. If I exercise the FV way of doing things I will be trusting my own works for that final (2 stage) justification, have I done enough to get me over the top. Christianity is trusting and resting on the finished work of Christ despite my many failures to keep his law because there was a onetime legal transaction on my behalf declaring me righteous. You think thats junk thats why youre an FVist!

[thefederalvision]

You're right, but FV doesn't disagree...not sure where you're getting your info...

[Arminian100]

it's just strange. Do me a favor, please. Look up every single verse in the Bible pertaining to FINAL JUDGMENT. Tell me, does it say we'll be judged according to "works" or "faith."

It says "works." So FV is just trying to follow the Bible. The Bible says that JUSTIFICATION is by FAITH. God's initial act of salvation is by FAITH ALONE. But final judgment is according to WORKS. How that goes together... We don't trust in ourselves. We trust in the SPIRIT to produce good works.

[talitha00cumi]

Arminian, I think you misunderstand the final judgment. Believers and unbelievers are judged by faith. That's it. That's what sends a person to Heaven or Hell.

Our works are the outward sign of our faith. If they are not there, neither is saving faith.

[Arminian100]

Sounds like you're not dealing with the verses. Every verse says we are judged according to our works. EVERY. SINGLE. VERSE.

So... I'm not misunderstanding - you're the one confusing present justification and final judgment.

[MahanaimCh]

@talitha00cumi We are sent to hell because we are sinners, period. God gives faith for the elect to have assurance.

[jdfain]

we will be judged by works. If we are saved, we will be judged by Christ's works through imputation.

[Arminian100]

@jdfain

Sorry. There's just not a single verse in Scripture which says that. In fact, not even in Paul. Instead, in Paul, Christians are described by such characteristics as could be called "good works."

In Paul, if Christians are judged according to works, it is not according to Christ's works - it is according to their own works wrought in them through the Holy Spirit - made possible by the saving work of Jesus Christ.

Rather large difference there. Most every current Paul scholar agrees

[janeym]

@Arminian100 or is it that because we are written in the Lamb's book of Life we are not part of the groupt that is judged? wait, it says "every man..." doesn't it...hahaha

well thank GOD for imputation! LITERALLY! hahaha

[QuakeCityRockers]

There is an absolute difference between our two competing religions. Your religion of the CREC or the RCC is a religion of works and law you are still damned under the Covenant of Works. My religion is simply of faith. Faith as in trusting or resting not doing, doing is of the law. Christ did the doing that is required in the Covenant of Works and imputes that active obedience so I can rest in the Covenant of Grace. Galatians 3:6-25! Your view of the Christian and the law is eternally wrong

[QuakeCityRockers]

Obviously you are not learning a thing from Horton or Sproul because if you did you would be repulsed by the satanic Romanist errors of Thomas Howard or Peter Kreeft. Just as I though you are in the CREC a religion of works and law. Though maybe and I am serious maybe you belong in the Roman Catholic Church. Didnt your boss Doug Wilson implement the 1646 version of WCF? What about Ch 25.6? Not very ecumenical of loving towards Kreeft and Howard.

[bobbiespants]

I try to apply the same standard when I'm reading modern books. Lord knows we all have our doctrinal errors, and us Reformed folk don't have a monopoly on truth. So I try to read broadly and seek Wisdom where she may be found. And that alluring and tricky Lady shows up in the strangest places. So whether its Michael Horton or Thomas Howard, R.C. Sproul or Peter Kreeft, I always try to read with grace and learn what I can from these men who are wiser and older than myself.

[bobbiespants]

I guess the point I'm trying to make with all this is a point I often make to my students. I teach Medieval history and literature, and when reading medieval Christians, students like to pick apart all the things that are wrong with them. I tell them, that we're not reading them to find all the things wrong with them (though there are errors), but rather to see what we can learn from them. Rather than reading to find error, read to find truth, and gladly accept it.

[bobbiespants]

If it makes a difference to the discussion (I suspect that it doesn't, but only opens the doors for a genetic fallacy), I am a member of a CREC church. Growing up, my father was the pastor of an Independent Christian church until we joined a Southern Baptist church when I was in high school. That's about it for my denominational pedigree. I have visited PCA, OPC, ARP and have good friends in those circles. I also have good friends who are Roman Catholic, and who love and serve the Lord Jesus.

[QuakeCityRockers]

bobbiespants one more thing by your standard of true church does that mean you include the Roman Catholic church as a true church? Maybe you claim to sola fide aint so genuine anymore??? Please sink the evil Roman Catholic church into the abbyss of non-church status. Don't be a Doug Wilson Federal Vision and include The Roman Catholic with it's pope and apostates like Scott Hahn as part of your fraternal brotheren in the Lord.

[bobbiespants]

I'm certainly not any sort of independent individualist. My elders quite happily accept churches who affirm the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Council of Chalcedon as Christian churches and we welcome members of such churches to partake with us in the Lord's Supper.

I firmly believe that I am saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

I firmly deny that I am saved by believing that I am saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone

[QuakeCityRockers]

bobbiespants for the point of clarification may I ask what denomination you are in? are you in a NARARC church the OPC, PCA, ARP, KAPC, RPCNA, URC, RCUS? Or are you in one of those CREC's or independent presbyterian churches like the PCCGA or RPCUS type of deals. Come out from the shadows be proud (in a good sense) of your church be true and let me know what kind of church body you come from.

[QuakeCityRockers]

As far as the covenant of works goes, denying that will lead you to deny the active obedience of Christ. If you deny the active obedience of Christ that means you have to supply your own obedience that means youre not a Christian but a legalist. There are some who are inconsistent like John Murray. Please see T. David Gordons contribution in By Faith Alone ed. Guy Waters & Gary Johnson; and Law is not of Faith ed. Brian Estelle & David Van Drunen & John Fesko

[QuakeCityRockers]

If youre in a URCNA or RCUS all bets are off. Please see Belgic Confession 29. Those churches will not recognize Baptists and Methodists as churches. None the less if you are in a NAPARC church then youre elders should direct you to what the church has always church this way your personal solipsisms of independent individualist silliness will be snuffed out. If youre in a CREC DW church then youve been had youre not reformed or Presbyterian and have nothing to do with the WCF!

[QuakeCityRockers]

bobbiespants if you are a member of an OPC or PCA then I would default to your church ob your objection. They only deal with other NAPARC churches. If a OPC or PCA helps out a Baptist church its because they believe they still have the essence of the church (Luthers view of Justification at the article that then church stands or falls) but in a lesser form then Presbyterians on a doctrinal basis. Methodism has historically been hostile to the doctrines of grace, i.e. Justification & election.

[bobbiespants]

What about Baptists or Methodists who don't even hold to Covenant Theology? Are they, therefore, heretics? If renaming the "covenant of works" to the "covenant of life", and saying it was gracious makes one a heretic, does being a dispensationalist make one an even bigger heretic? Those who are want to declare Doug and Piper heretics aren't holding everyone to the same standard. Can we disagree about the nature or number of the covenants without trying to excommunicate one another? Yes we can.

[QuakeCityRockers]

It is impossible to affirm Justification by faith alone if you do not believe in the imputation of the Active and Passive obedience of Christ. You cant hold to an Active Obedience of Christ doctrine if you deny the Covenant of Works and that covenant was republished at Sinai for Christ to live under. Doug Wilson, John Piper, Norman Shepherd, Federal Vision and many evangelicals who are currently under the banner of Together for the Gospel and Gospel Coalition deny the Covenant of Works!

[aLOVINGinfidel]

I like to observe you people argue over the details of your imaginary friends.

[ToshiroHoshi]

@aLOVINGinfidel How do you know the God of the Bible is imaginary? Are you saying that you have come to an absolute knowledge of everything in the universe? And form that absolute knowledge, ruled out any possibility of His existence? Are you saying that you've debunked each and every argument for the reality of the God of the Bible?

[QuakeCityRockers]

Heres the thing that calvinus1954, bobbiespants (both of whom pose as a confessional Presbyterian) and others are clueless on. DW and Piper deny the covenant of works. The theological outwork of this is that they deny that the covenant at Sinai was a republication of that covenant of works that Christ had to live under to take out final exam so to say thus there is no active obedience to impute as the second Adam.

[QuakeCityRockers]

There is a helpful discussion on R Scott Clarks blog the heidelblog. One poster mentioned Pipers Mono-covenantalism which is close to Wilsons and is the key to why Piper has an unorthodox view on Justification and the imputation of Christ active obedience to the elect who believe. Piper also has a future grace future justification model and his so called Christian hedonism is Law not Gospel. He is right up the FV alley when it comes to preaching covenant moralism.

[RedBeetle]

Listen to John Piper's and Douglas Wilson's idiotic analogy in this video.

Listen carefully.

The teacher cheats by taking the test for the kid. Cheating is a sin. But God does not cheat when He justifies His elect, for God is both "just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Romans 3:26).

God doesn't cheat the Law, but He satisfies it. Wilson's analogy is a false one, just like his false gospel. Doug Wilson and John Piper both reject Justification By Faith Alone!

[ClarkApologetics]

LOL--So much for Douglas Wilson's analogical reasoning!

[foucachon]

You're logic is...wow...ReformedLou's video put it well.

[csu12]

Have you ever considered that maybe the teacher stepping in and taking the test, speaks of Christ satisfying the Law, saying to us that we can do nothing on our own to inherit the Kingdom. That the Good News is that Christ has done what needed to be done. I mean, if you wanted to, you could say, listen carefully to the analogy...they compare Christ to a woman teacher. He was no woman..that's heresy!!

[eustace482]

Did Christ cheat the law by dying in our place? No. Teachers determine what cheating is. What of teachers that give open book tests? The author of the law did not "cheat" the law by dying in our place, he fulfilled it. Christ, knowing we could not "pass the test" chose to out himself in our "desk" and offer his score as ours! What's wrong with the analogy?

[dwoods828]

The proclamation of Christ involves warning and teaching.

"Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man."

Our message must certainly include teaching and instructing believers about the person and work of the Lord Jesus.

However, it must also include warnings about the things that are not of Him--the flesh and self-centered living in the wisdom of this world. All of this teaching and warning must be done "in all wisdom"--that is, by seeking the wisdom of God.

[dwoods828]

Sola Scriptura

Sola Fide

Solus Christus

Sola Gratia

Soli de Gloria

God has a gloriously rich message that He wants us to declare. It is about His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Him we preach (proclaim)." Our message is about a Person.

It is not about success or health or wealth. It is not about revolution or recovery or religion. It is not about philosophy or psychology. It is not about politics or programs.

We are sent forth to proclaim "Christ in you, the hope of glory." PERIOD

[QuakeCityRockers]

Pipers book Future Grace is in the same vain as Norman Shepherds Call of Grace! What Im afraid is that John Piper may end up like John Armstrong if you all remember him. They are both of the same new covenant/mono-covenantal line type. Piper is close to future eschatological Justification like NT Wright and Doug Wilson. I know that John MacArthurs Churchs book store outlawed DW books because of rank heresy and hopefully Johnny Mac tried to straighten out Piper when he was out there.

[TheLogicalCalvinist]

Piper said:

"Doug (Wilson) gets the gospel right."

We shouldn't be too surprised by this, because Piper is no Calvinist, and he may not even be a Christian.

Only time will tell if Piper blatantly and explicitly denies the biblical gospel. He's headed in that direction now given what he wrote in his book FUTURE GRACE, and his endorsements of Wilson and even N.T. Wright, of whom he said that he (Wright) doesn't get the gospel wrong, he just preaches a "confusing gospel".

Piper is wicked!

[TheLogicalCalvinist]

bobbiespants said,

"...I'll wait to hear from the other 99.982% of of the Church. I'll post when they give me a call."

Spoken like a true Roman Catholic.

Stop following church counsels like a blind fool, and test everything by the scripture.

The Bible Alone Is The Word Of God!

[calvinus1954]

"stop following the church counsels like a blind fool."

Exactly! And that is why saying that "all the reformed denominations call FV heresy" is not valid. I heard the PCA do it...it was a slip-shod job, done no better than Luther at Worms.

Exactly...go to scripture...and you might find yourself agreeing with some of Doug Wilson's teaching, and the FV.

[bobbiespants]

Actually, I'm a Presbyterian. 5 point Calvinist. WCF subscriber. Paedobaptist. 5 Solas. Whole shebang. But, ah well...

[calvinus1954]

So am I - all the above! And I also think that Doug Wilson is not a heretic - far be it.

[QuakeCityRockers]

Does John Piper believe in a covenant of works and a covenant of grace distinction as classical old school reformed theology teaches? How can he make sense of Romans 5:12-21 and Romans 4 in the same way as confessional reformed churches do? Maybe John Piper doesnt believe in the active obedience of Christ like we do in the confessional world. John Piper is Mono-covenantal. Norman Shepherd, DW, FV, NNP, NT Wright, Roman Catholicism is mono-covenantal. Mono-covenantalism is bad news.

[QuakeCityRockers]

In the end it has been documented that DW and his FV that they believe in salvation by works they did this to themselves and the Wilsonites cant do a thing about it. The OPC, PCA, RCUS and URCNA along with WSCal, RTS Jackson, and MARS have victoriously defeated the FV and NPP in their reply. The sad thing is John Piper could care less what the confessional reformed churches have said and had disrupted the peace of the Church!

[foucachon]

Listening to the PCA GA on FV, I could not believe how they barely quoted scripture in condemning FV... instead they used the certain language of the WCF and pitted it against the FV language which is using some of the words in a more biblical sense. They are not opposed unless you twist words! WCF AND FV language are both good. They do not collide unless you make them.

If you condemn a man without scripture proof, how can you claim to be better than the Papists who condemned Luther and Calvin?

[QuakeCityRockers]

I would direct you to the official published reports found on the PCA website and READ it and not just listen to the floor debate. The written report is loaded with tons of scripture so read it and consider your last post refuted and that you spoke without doing any due diligence and contributing to the demise of your own credibility. You are about as familiar to the WCF as you are with the Chinese language both are foreign to you! Oh Dr. Leithart is going to get canned at the 2010 PCA GA.

[magma2]

The Committee was charged with limiting their examination of the FV/NPP in order to determine to what degree, if any, these movements conform with the church's doctrinal standards. Plus, the WCF is already an exposition of Scripture, therefore any doctrine that controverts the WCF, controverts Scripture. And, since the FV/NPP does not deal with secondary issues, but rather the core of the Gospel, it follows that the FV/NPP are damnable heresies.

[foucachon]

Magma, you say that doctrine that contradicts WCF is heresy - wrong. I believe that the WCF is a valid and good interpretation of scripture. I hold to the WCF heartily. But to say that they are equal to scripture sounds very papist to me. Church tradition, as the Reformation pointed out, is not perfect, though it is valuable. The gospel is not such that we can bottle it in one confession. Thankfully, it is much much more. If FV is wrong, I want to be shown through scripture.

Sola Scriptura

[magma2]

I didn't say the WCF is "equal" to Scripture, but is an accurate expression of the very system of doctrine taught in Scripture. All those ordained in the PCA publicly vow to their assent on this point. So, for the PCA's purpose, it is enough to show that the FV contradicts the WCF to demonstrated that those who teach contrary to the Confession ought to come under church discipline. As far as demonstrating the FV is contrary to Scripture...

[magma2]

... that has been done numerous times and in numerous places. The PCA is under no obligation to write a report to suit you. And, also, the Confession hasn't "bottled" the Gospel, but it accurately explains what it is and to whom it applies, which is not everyone who had his head damped by some so-called "authorized representative of the church" as Wilson claims.

[QuakeCityRockers]

I think John Piper is not revealing his whole hand I think he is truly sympathetic to FV and NNP and even NTW himself. I read his book on NT Wright and found it to be weak, feeble and insipid and even too friendly compared with the hard core sola fide defense from our confessional guys like Guy Waters, John V Fesko and the book from Westminster California ed. by Scott Clark. Those books unlike John Pipers really put the knockout blow to FV and NPP.

[CRHE]

I find many of the charges against Wilson. . . perplexing. Indeed, it was his preaching, 3 years ago, that led me to believe in justification by faith alone, through grace alone.

[waltherchemnitz]

Well, then he failed categorically. It's Justification BY grace alone, THROUGH faith alone. The prepositions are of utmost importance here. Not BY faith alone, THROUGH grace alone...

[calvinus1954]

Amen and Amen!! I've heard Doug Wilson emphasize over and over Justification by faith alone!

[ShinuMirai]

Not to put down Doug Wilson with the heresies he's involved with. But come'on Dr.Piper, surely there are more suited candidates for the DG conference with the theme being Calvin. It's not every year that we get to celebrate John Calvin's 500th birthday. DG should have chosen wiser. [Well the Lord's purposes wills stand.]

[resivordog17]

I wish I was mistaken.

[tmhurley27]

I think Piper makes a good point in noting that the gospel should be preached in such a way that Romans 6:1 is the question people ask.

[resivordog17]

Fouachon writes: "Justification is by faith alone, plus nothing - Doug Wilson believes this firmly."

This is simply false. Wilson incorporates works into his definition of saving faith which is how he and other Federal Visionist can seemingly affirm JBFA while simultaneously denying it. His understanding of faith differs very little from that of Rome. So, while I can understand a layperson being fooled, what's Piper's excuse?

[tmhurley27]

Well, perhaps he's not fooled, because perhaps it's true, and perhaps you're mistaken?

[magma2]

Utterly shameful. Piper is completely delinquent in letting a charlatan, fraud and Federal Vision pitchman Wilson speak at his conference. But, then again, to anyone who has read that horrible tome "Future Grace," Wilson and the FV have more in common with Piper than many suspect.

Regardless, if Piper is truly a Christian pastor his actions here are shameful and sinful. The Judaizers in Paul's day never had it so good.

[foucachon]

I would be curious in knowing what you believe concerning grace and salvation...it sounds like you disagree with both Piper and Wilson - I'd be hesitant to do that...

Seriously, what do you believe? and (not that it truly matters) what denomination are you?

[bobbiespants]

So the OPC, PCA, and RPCUS declared Doug Wilson a heretic (even if it's not true on all fronts, bear with me). This means that 3 denominations comprising a total of roughly 385,000 members think Doug Wilson's views are heretical. In a world with 2,100,000,000 Christians, this means that effectively .018 % of the Church has excommunicated Wilson. A Great Ecumenical Council to be sure, but I'll wait to hear from the other 99.982% of of the Church. I'll post when they give me a call.

[LockNLoadRonPaul2008]

Just because the remaining amount of Christians are silent on the issue doesn't mean that Wilson is free from error. Furthermore, in all reality how many of thse 2.1 billion Christians are confessional?

[QuakeCityRockers]

Doug Wilson does not believe according to HIS writings in the same justification by faith alone as the confessions do c.f. WLC 170,171,172. The GA reports of the OPC, PCA and RCUS have confirmed this and have reported that Doug Wilson is out of line with the confession thus he is not reformed! Please respect the reflection of the church! Do you want the links to the GA reports? See also the Mississippi Valley PCA (Ligon Duncan) report on Federal Vision.

[graydomn]

Oh anonymous person,

You clearly have not read the OPC report as it does nothing of the sort. Bearing this sort of false witness brings shame on your name. Perhaps that is why you hide your name.

[foucachon]

QuakeCityRockers,

Have you listened to Doug Wilson preach? I have listened to him preach for 4 years. I am the son of a PCA pastor, and have grown up on the mission field, and have been in many PCA churches because of that. Doug Wilson preaches and understands the gospel like few do in these days.

[foucachon]

Jason, seriously, please do listen to a few of Doug Wilson's sermons, and then come back...

[QuakeCityRockers]

foucachon, thanks for calling me by name have we meet? Anyways silly anecdotal appeals of your former days as a reformed guy does not make for a good case for FV it sounds like one of those Scott Hahn testimonials. The fact is your guy DW and his FV peeps have written and spoke incriminating stuff against sola fide. The NAPARC churches studied the material and refuted them in their denomination reports! I pray that we can rescue Doug Wilsons robots and bring them into the truth into Christ!!!

[foucachon]

Jason, I wasn't saying I * used * to be reformed - I'm saying I * am * reformed. My views on Justification by faith alone, plus nothing, have not changed in the slightest - and Doug Wilson's preaching has only made those beliefs firmer and firmer.

Again, have you listened to Doug Wilson actually preach, or have you only listened to his opponents?

[foucachon]

And concerning the NAPARC reports - just remember that the RCC made a lot of official "reports" concerning the Reformers...Man and "Committees" can always be flawed, and make mis-judgments (even if the institution they represent is not corrupt). But true doctrine is measured by scripture...or do you not believe in sola scriptura?

I listened to the PCA GA concerning FV...I can't help but think that most of those voting had not read the material...just a dark suspicion of mine..

[QuakeCityRockers]

foucachon, just a reminder that man made theology like DWs FV is also subject to futility and sorrowful misjudgments. Um we did due the due diligence of reading the FV materials and doing biblical exegeses to counter DW and FV. Sadly you have refused to consider the labors of the church in their careful examination of DW and his FV. Youre like a Jehovahs Witness who wont read anything examining the Watchtower! Your dark suspicion is just you surprising the truth youre a desperate rebel!

[bobbiespants]

This is related to my previous comment. The point I'd like to make is, can we say something like "labors of the church" when we're really referring to the labors of a few of the smallest denominations in Christendom, none of which exercise any authority over Doug Wilson in his denomination. What does it take these days to consider something the declaration of "the Church"?

[calvinus1954]

Very good and valid point!

[Reformchick]

Doug Wilson communicates like an academic among theologians so there is going to be some communication clashes. I don't always agree with him (or Piper for that matter) but I definitely can't wait for this conference.

[RevMarcLloyd]

Well, or like a Pastor?

[Reformchick]

Certainly, but Wilson studied Philosophy right? Being conversant in post-structuralist/modernist philosophy is like speaking another language and when you read some of his stuff you can tell he is merging that language with his theological insight.

[HisFatherlyHand]

Did you even listen to what Piper said in the video before you started commenting, QuakeCityRockers?

[QuakeCityRockers]

On even further reflection the church i.e. NAPARC denominations in their presbyteries, classes and general assemblies and synods have gone through painstaking study to produce documents that have reflected their due diligence on the matter and have warned of the heretical ways of Doug Wilson and FV. The problem is that American independent individualists with their influence like John Piper under mind the doctrinal peace and purity of the church to endorse FV-ists like Doug Wilson.

[RevMarcLloyd]

Piper is an Elder in the Church of God, isnt he? And is thus worthy of respect.

[QuakeCityRockers]

Doug Wilson is as far away from confessional orthodoxy as it gets read R. Scott Clarks book on Recovering Reformed Confessions. Professors from Mid American Reformed Seminary Alan Stange and Cornelius Venema have critique Mr. Wilsons views and found them exegetically unbiblical. How could you give you blessing on Doug Wilson you are sadly misleading people to self-righteousness and the evils of Federal Vision and New Paul, havent you read Covenant, Justification and Pastoral Ministry?

[RevMarcLloyd]

What is your evidence for these serious charges that Doug Wilson is guilty of misleading people like that?

All things can be misunderstood. Wilson has been careful to deny any kind of meritorious justification by works.

[borgkyle]

Ummm...do you realize almost every denomination in NAPARC (OPC, PCA, URC, etc) has definitively and decidedly declared Wilson et al to be out of accord with orthodoxy? Is that enough "evidence"?

[calvinus1954]

No...because they were not judged according to scripture. Part of the debate on the floor at the PCA GA was to come back next year with scripture proofs. Sure, FV language is different that WCF language. But then again, even the Heidelberg and WCF have their langauge differences...

To use a different theological language is not heresy. FV and WCF do not appose one another. They SHOULD compliment each other, and I think they do.

[resivordog17]

The evidence is in Wilson's many writings, not least of which Reformed is Not Enough. Wilson explains: Those who obligate themselves under the terms of the covenant law to live by faith but then defiantly refuse to believe are cut away (134). In Wilsons scheme, breaking covenant occurs because of unbelief, lack of faith, and because of lack of good works (134), and fulfilling the conditions of the covenant occurs by faith and good works.

[QuakeCityRockers]

I feel betrayed because Doug Wilson is a Federal Visionist!!! The OPC, PCA and RCUS have gone against his views on Justification. Doug Wilson is a foot solder of NT Wrights views. If you think Doug Wilsons views are right on, on Justification then you too John Piper are an enemy of the Justification By Faith Alone and stand on the same side of FV and NPP! Read John V. Feskos book on Justification or Guy Waters books or the book from Westminster Seminary California defending Justification.

[juanfirebird]

Just would like to know the views of Doug Wilson on justification and what is a Federal Visionist?

[dbzgtcrazy]

He doesn't think of justification differently than other Reformed people other than the addition of a kind of "justification," in addition to what happens upon first faith, that means a final vindication of a believer based upon God's looking at the whole life lived (cf Romans 2), which I think simply means God looking at works as evidence of having been truly saved on the basis of faith alone.

[RevMarcLloyd]

Which is of course standard Reformed orthodoxy

[dbzgtcrazy]

Also, Federal Vision is mainly concerned with the objectivity of the New Covenant; that is, they consider all children of believers in the church, and all people in a local body to be members of the New Covenant, whether believing or not, and if those people continue in unbelief and are never saved, they are considered "covenant-breakers." It basically just takes Reformed sacramentalism to the extreme based on a pretty radical covenant theology. FV is not simple or monolithic, though.

[foucachon]

Justification is by faith alone, plus nothing - Doug Wilson believes this firmly.

The confusion of some come because he also says that true living faith will manifest itself by living works. But those works don't do a darn thing for our Salvation - they too are a gift of God for which we give thanks

[magma2]

This is simply false. Wilson incorporates works into his errant definition of faith which is how he and other FV antichrists can seemingly affirm JBFA while simultaneously denying it. I'm hard pressed to see how Wilson's understanding of saving faith differs from Rome.