Let's see... the actual god will be worth my belief, no you have not seen him, no one has, why believe in something you have never seen? You're not going to see him when you die, your going to see 3 seconds of a dream.
What would it take for me to believe God as described in the Christian Bible?
Honestly? I think that God, as strictly described in the Bible, as already been soundly disproven. For me to believe in him, this universe would have to be physically different from how it is now. The sun would have to revolve around the Earth. The Earth would have to be flat. The sky would have to be a dome with the stars painted on it. And miracles would have to be as dramatic and common as they were in the Bible.
@boscoblack peoples lack of belief in God is not based on a lack of evidence but what some see as a lack of credible evidence,and other issues such as the problem of evil.not a no brainer..
@ProudPatriotPapa Yes, because there is no objective evidence for any supernatural being, some rely on philosophical arguments to come to a conclusion. But the only reason it comes to that is due, again, to the lack of evidence. That's because there is none. And please, if you are arguing for the existence of any of the thousands of gods that have "existed" throughout time, I would be more than happy to hear what great, reliable evidence you have.
@ProudPatriotPapa no evidence no beliefs ,that simple no brainier,why do you always gotta make everything seem more complicated then it actually is? if i told you i had a magic unicorn in my basement ,im pretty sure you wouldn't believe in it until you see it ,same things with all gods .. gods were made up because they had no answers to nothing, you don't know how we came to be? , instead of looking for answers you take the easy way out and say "god did it" religion 101
I want to see a faith healer who can, upon command, harness the power of the God to restore the severed limb of an amputee. I want to meet the amputee so that I can examine the nub where the limb used to be. I want to examine the limb before and after the "healing." I want to see it firsthand, in front of my own eyes, and in front of a room full of biologists, physicians and skeptics. And I want to see it multiple times. I'm actually curious as to why the faithful have not thought of this first.
@ProudPatriotPapa Not true. Through Meiosis, a different pair of 23 chromosomes are needed to make a stable and healthy child. In the Bible, it is not only said that Adam and Eve created the rest of the human off-spring, but Adam made Eve with one of his ribs. Through the two, humanity would not be able to survive. There would need to be more than 2, more than 100.
Gods fall into the category of unobservable things that have no apparent effect on the perceptible universe. Any specific member of this category is as likely as any other because there is no reliable method of demonstrating its existence. The number of possible unobservable things is infinite, so our odds are not good that we would guess correctly.
My conversion would be very easy to a religion based on reality. It would just take a confluence of evidence, like with anything else I believe.
This is actually not that bad a question. Except for the part where you said the god of the bible. For me to believe in the god of the bible he would have to show up on my doorstep and fly me up to see heaven and hell because there is no other possible series of events in which I could even contemplate the existence of such a stupid self centred jealous A-Hole. If it is indeed the god of the bible who exists I would rather go to hell then spend my after life worshiping him
@ProudPatriotPapa "What would it take for you to belive in god? What evidence and proof would you require?"
I honestly don't know but I imagine it would be the similar to the evidence that it would take to convert you to any of the following:- Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Cheondoism, Taoism, Shinto, Spiritism, The Rastafari movement, Scientology etc.
@ProudPatriotPapa Why atheism, I always had questions when I was a kid and I was never truly satisfied with the given answers. As I grew older, I became aware of other faiths, then I thought to myself If I was born to:- a Hindu, a Sikh, a Muslim, a Jew, a Buddhist, an Aboriginal, a native American Indian, a Shinto family, a Taoist, an Akan family, a Scientologist etc. Wouldn't I just follow the family religion as most people do? If so then doesn't that make religion just an accident of birth?
Atheism is not a belief, it's a refusal to believe. In my case because of a total lack of proof, and the reasoning that faith can be blinding if not questioned. I questioned, and concluded that god does not exist. I can't believe in unicorns because they do not exist. This is not lack of belief in unicorns it is fact. Good luck to those who do believe but count of out.
Atheists tend to require scientific evidence of God. Which is rather anomalous because if God were scientifically proven, then It would be a utility of science. It would be x in that final equation. Ergo, God would not be God.
As for the Bible God..well, that one can be anything anyone likes to think It is.
Too many faults in the bible. Too much threats of....or else! The clarity of looking on the outside and seeing that it (the bible) is a tool to control masses of people is apparently obvious to anyone who tries to see the truth and asks why.
@1coffeecup You are correct, especially in saying the bible is a tool. In the past preist used the bible to gain wealth and power by telling people to buy their way into "heaven".
its not a question to atheists, B/c we do not have an answer.. What we do have is questions... Why god? where did god come from? who made god? what made god? why does the swin flu evolve and other viruses? Why was there a group of people that voted in what went into the bible? Why wasn't all the books put into the bibile? Why change from old testoment to new? and atheists questions go on and on and on... Just saying!!!
@valarmanwe That should be obvious... don't you think? I did state them at the beginning and its not just one question... Your question would of been more acceptable like so "what questions would that be?" Just give any subject and it produces more questions then it can possibly answer.. Where are we (which i mean me or you or other) are satified to stop asking questions? Do you see how i produce more questions than can be answered?
@curemymind I do indeed see that. That is my point. Ie, that the answesr are there for science to discover, and when they are discovered they becomes part of science. And when the next question is answered, it too becomes part of science. That is what I meant when I said that if God were discoverd by science, then God would not be God.
A digression: Did you listen to Copleston vs. Russell ?
@valarmanwe :|... I got that long time ago.. I have yet to find the time to listen to Copleston vs Russell.. But i will have some time off soon for this.. I work in an office which im trying to get out of, but i do have some time to check my comments and video comments... I just don't have a lot of time on me to properly listen.. But i will.. thanks for the info.. I always like to listen to different people as listening is one of the hardest things a person can do...
For me: If this is a decision that would impact my life in a way that would cause me to live for eternity or burn for eternity then god would need to make himself known in a literal sense. If he was real then not a single person could deny or doubt his existence. Religion wouldn't be set up in a way that he can remain hidden and he shouldn't have to leave it up to sinful humans to push it on people. He should notice Atheist's concerns and not just ignore them and send us to hell anyway.
I'll use the words of Matt Dillahunty, I don't know what it would take, but if your god is what the bible says he is, then HE knows what it would take, and would have the power to do it. The fact that your god has not proven himself shows that he either wants me to go to hell, or doesn't exist. If he wants me to go to hell, then your god is an asshole. There is more evidence suggesting that your god doesn't exist. Following the evidence and facts leads to the conclusion that god doesn't exist.
@ProudPatriotPapa Lets apply some reason to this. 1. The bible says God created the Universe roughly 6,000 years ago, we know that this is wrong. 2. An all powerful being that created everything, could not find some peaceful alternative to "wicked" behaviour, and used a genocidal flood as the answer. If god is as powerful as the bible says, then he would have been able to find another more peaceful solution. 3 Jesus. god sacrifices himself, to himself, to create a loophole in a rule he created.
@TenchiJeff What I'm really getting down to, is that it makes no sense at all. Things that are real, ARE REAL. My tv, my desk, gravity. These are all things that can be measured and proven to be real. The burden of proof is on those that claim that their is a god. If you say that god is a being that cannot be measured, and exists outside of reality, then that is same as NOT BEING REAL!
@TenchiJeff A 7 dimensional being is real..we do not as of yet have the technology to interact with such in a way you ( and all of science )would accept.
@TenchiJeff Misconception 1..the bible does not say exactly how long ago the universe was created.I'll send you a vid to straighten that out.The flood eliminated an entire generation of people so evil even modern atheists would call for there destruction.Why he chose the solution He did we don't know.human beings are not capable of seeing the results of our actions in the short term let alone the entire term of human history.So that is kinda moot point.
@proudpatriotpapa - Let me get this straight: You are proposing that a half human, half god, child was born to a 13 year-old virgin girl in 1st century Palestine. The child then completely disappears from history for the next 30 years, then suddenly turns up again preaching that the end of the world is about to take place. He was then executed by the Roman authorities for sedition and disturbing the peace, was then miraculously raised from the dead...TBC...
@dingodavid Scripture doesn't give Mary's age,so your off there.You have his birth,toddler events ,youth events then from 12 to 30 nothing is said.He did not preach the end of the world was about to happen but the destruction of Israel.The last days and his return are prophesied as much later events.He was found innocent by the Romans of any crime,guilty of blasphemy by the Jewish leaders because he claimed to be the Messiah,the Son of God.He died was resurrected on the 3rd day.
@ proudpatriotpapa - P2...He then secretly appeared to only a small group of his closest followers on and off for a few days, and then flew away into the sky never to be seen again.
And yet you claim that I'm the one reaching? OK???
@dingodavid He appeared publicly to over 500 of his followers over the course of the following 40 days then ascended in front of multiple witnesses.His Resurrection appears to have marked the cloth used to bury him in.His miracles were even acknowledged by his enemies.He will return in the same manner he left.All this is documented better than the life of most Caesar's by eyewitnesses.So you can accept there report or not.
@ proudpatriotpapa: I assume that you reject the claims all other religions apart from the one that you belong to. When you understand why you reject the claims of all other religions, then you will understand why atheists simply go one step further, and reject the claims of your religion as well. Atheists are simply being consistent.
Evidence? Some well documented and irrefutable miracles would help, as well as proof that praying to the god of the Bible actually does something.
No, I t is simply impossible, unless an athaeist thinks of his wroldview as irrational.
The egsistence of God is not the only one issue, but it also contains many, sometimes different statements of every aspect of life, of the wrold of all that sorrounds us. Atheism is in 6/7 Theism with additional letter A, wich stands for an opposition. It is opposite view for theist view, so it has to deny all of the theist claims, not the major one. And, that is what atheist are trying to do.
im just making an assumption, and by no means trying to offend.
but since you're a christian, i assume that you dont believe in allah, or zeus, or thor.
what it would take for me to believe in a christian god, is what it would take for a christian who doesnt believe in zeus to turn around and believe in him.
Atheism isn't a belief. It is a responce to the claim that god(s) exist. Theists claim that gods exist, atheists don't accept that claim due to a lack of evidence. I assume you do not accept that the gods of the greek/roman pantheon (Zeus, Apollo, Venus, etc) are real. That makes you an atheist with respect to those gods. Now carry over that frame of reference with respect to ALL gods and you will understand the point of atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief. It makes no claims.
@robtheman74 By definition atheism claims there are no deities of any kind .period.That is a claim in and of itself.not just in reference to one particular deity.So what makes you think this way?
@ProudPatriotPapa Because there is no evidence for the existence of any Gods. If you say Leprechauns do not exist, you do not need to prove that they don't exist (because you cannot prove a negative) but Leprechauns or those who believe in them must show themselves to exist. As far as an atheist is concerned, God and Leprechauns are equally false until proven true.
@ProudPatriotPapa atheism doesn't claim anything. It just doesn't believe anyone else's claim. Comes from the greek word "Atheos" A meaning an absence of or lacking, and THEOS meaning god. An Atheist has no god.
There ought to be multiple video recordings, showing multiple angles of the biblical God showing up at his book signing, transported to Earth via lightning bolt. And seeing him autograph bibles!
I stopped believing in God when I was 10 year old. The reason at the time does not matter. The reason I can not believe in the God of the Bible is because I can not see a good loving God in the Bible, instead I see a cruel God. Even the whole story about Jesus is just plain cruel in my eyes. In order for me to believe, I would need to see proof that such a god is a loving god and that he is real.
@darththeo The scourging and Crucifixion was taken by Yeshua(Jesus)in our place.Jesus was the physical manifestation of God as foretold in the old testament. he will make two appearances,one to save our souls one to rule over us.He took our just punishment upon himself.No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his friends.I can't explain all the events that happen in this world.Some are extremely evil some extremely good.But they are all done by men.
@ProudPatriotPapa What father sends his own son to basically be a lamb to slaughter? That is "love" ... I am sorry, that is no love I know or want. Jesus first came for the sole reason to die ... I find that rather cruel. I don't see love there.
@darththeo And will be judged by God in the end.If you want more details you can continue this here or pm me.I sense there are some things you do not want to discuss in public.
I was raised in the church, and was very close to being ordained as a deacon, after discipleship. As fervent as I was about serving the church, and its members, I never felt any kind of spiritual presence. I supposed it had to be there, but just not exposing itself to me.
I found that what convinces us is not always based on the same things for all people. Some, were completely convinced with the giddy feeling they had during worship. Others, like me, need more. We are not as open to suggestion
Not really. Different denominations may have particular incantations or traditions they feel are more important than others. They may have disparate views on certain historical event, and their importance. It doesn't give any of them any more credibility, as all of their beliefs are based on the same thing.
I suppose you are going to tell me that your preferred flavor is the right one, when all the others are mistaken. But, how do you know?
@Pernic10us Your ignorance of Christianity shows in this statement,there are huge differences between say Jehovah's witnesses and Catholics and Mormons and protestants.So which one were you?
I cut my first 'debate' teeth on JW's and Mormons.
I was a KJ-based, although I didn't use just the KJ, prayin', lovin' Christian. I think the church had a foundation in Baptist, but were not crazy snake-wielding types.
Like I said, it doesn't matter, though. Faith is the fundamental ingredient in religious belief, and I have no faith in faith. Different interpretations of the bible are all still presuming that it is all true.
@Pernic10us So what part did you think was not true?Every historical event in the old and new testament has been shown to be real and accurate by archeology, cosmology,physics and m theory.So what s the problem?
There is not enough space in these comment boxes to elaborate on all the errors in this claim. The bible includes explanations of the world from a Bronze Age level of understanding, and point of view. Much of it was borrowed from earlier ideologies, which are all also false.
This is beside the fact that the idea of original sin, and primitive blood cult rituals to cure it is immoral and reprehensible.
@Pernic10us That's what I've gotten every time a person here has claimed that Judaism/Christianity was rooted in Egyptian or other Roman faiths.You have something different?
It had some good information on earlier messianic heroes, but there is no way to reliably draw a direct connection to the character of Jesus, or any of the idolic characters of the Old Testament. It doesn't matter though.
I have written many comments now, (probably too many). Please make sure you use "Veiw all comments" instead of just replying to the ones that show up in your message inbox. It is hard to fit everything in 500 chars for us loquacious YT users.
@Pernic10us string theory covers the multidimensional existence of matter and energy.It allows for the Creator to exist both as part of our universe and outside of it at the same time.to be eternal and for the existence of a literal hell and heaven.As to cosmology I'll send you a video on that one.It covers creation and evolution as well.
That is a huge leap to insert a creator here. Much of String Theory is still purely conceptual. It includes assertions itself that are very difficult to test and verify. Even what we do understand is very complex and hard to understand by laymen, myself included. There is nothing about it to suggest that there is a creator hiding in the cracks somewhere. That is a blind assertion based on a presupposition. We could propose any number of supernatural claims like this. -->
There is no way to prove one is more likely than the other. You can just choose the one that sounds best to you, but this is no better than wishful thinking.
Deepak Chopra has a number of claims based on "Quantum Physics" as well. And there is no way to dismiss them with the logic that you are using to correlate M Theory to the existence of your particular god.
This is based on an old form of argument we call God of the Gaps. It is a fallacy.
@Pernic10us I never said it proves his existence but it does allow for it.combined with Dawkins proof from biology of design in evolution it makes for a strong case for the existence of God not against it.
I don't make the same conclusion about anything Dawkins has said or published.
There are literally infinite amounts of things that are possible, but not observed. None of us can claim to have all of the answers, or be able to disprove every claim. This is not justification for asserting things based on religious dogma. Especially the absurd suppositions of Christianity, or any other deistic theology.
Back to the bible. I would like to see the video you mentioned.
@Pernic10us yes i have explored the text of Islam and Judaism.So what inaccuracy are you going to try to bring up?In every supposed one I've heard it has been a misunderstanding of the person reading the text (taking things out of context ) or deliberately twisting clear meaning of the text. Don't forget the cultural context of some of the old testament scriptures.
@Pernic10us this thread has gotten off base a bit ..you claimed you found issues with the origins of the Bible and i asked what they were ..still waiting for an answer to that.
Historically, I thought the stories of Eden, the Tower Babel, and Noah's flood to be anecdotal, at best. I felt that symbolically they were relevant and added to the bigger picture of the character of god. This led to a bit of contention with my fellow congregants that insisted them to be true. I think this is where I really started to dig into archeology, biology, and the history of the bible itself.
Turns out that according to evidence uncovered through exploration, these things could not have possibly happened. If my faith was supposed to based on the veracity of these claims it was not going to have much of a foundation. This is where my critical mind really began to stretch it's legs. I looked to the known Christian apologists to get a perspective that should have been closer to mine (Romans 12:2). What I found was a frustrating string of fallacies.
I wanted to know where the disconnect was. There had to be a misunderstanding about a passage, or contextual errors due to culture changes. I spoke to my leaders and those I admired so much growing up in the church for a little guidance. Surely someone had been where I was, and found the answer, faith intact.
The only responses I got were along the lines of, "Just pray, and God will tell you through your faith."
But as I mentioned before, I was not on god's mailing list.
Basically, I have found no reliable extra-biblical sources of information that any of the supernatural claims in it. This didn't even do it yet, though. I figured that there must be some great conspiracy of lies that have been concocted to hide the real truth.
But there isn't. The scientific method is built on a system of demonstrable evidence. It shows that the Universe does not revolve around us. We did not come from two humans in a garden.
...And snakes do not have anything that resemble vocal chords!
This left me with only the moral reasoning for holding on to faith. I began to think about what sin is, how it came to be. How is it defined, and measured. But these are just concepts inside our own minds, strictly from our own perspectives.
What was this "gift of salvation" that was teetering on the line?
Is pain, and the shedding of blood a *good* way to solve problems, or pay debts?
I think that the process of collection and authorization of the books in the bible we have now is one of things that was a turning point for me. I was not even aware of how it was carried out, and neither did any of the leaders or elders in my church. (They were also sure that the "B.C.-A.D." calendar change was initiated because of Jesus.)
@Pernic10us yes i know what you mean about limited space here,i get wordy myself sometimes.the new testament scriptures were written from about 45ad to about 90-95 ad.Some were dictated ,some were hand written by there authors As the need arose for teaching material among the churches that did not have a direct disciple leading them.A standard was required,A council was formed and the material reviewed.the criteria used was authenticity ,agreement with doctrine,and age of material considered.
It is hard to determine when they were written, we don't have any of the original manuscripts. They were pieced together as best as could be done at the time. In some cases, such as the parts of the gospel that are considered synoptic, they had to borrow from one (mostly Mark) to fill the gaps of record.
"A council was formed and the material reviewed.the criteria used was authenticity ,agreement with doctrine"
This is one of my greatest contentions with the process. -->
The church, and its doctrine had already been established by the time they were authorizing the texts on which the doctrine would be governed. How many did they have to choose from, and what was left out?
It is important also to know when the council was formed and charged to carry out the process of canonization. It wasn't anywhere near 95 CE.
@Pernic10us One of the issues they had to deal with was false letters/scriptures were being passed around at the same time the originals were.there is mention of this by Paul in his letters.The last book of the New testament was written between 90-95 ad(revelation). the oldest fragment is from the book of john(the John Ryland fragment) and it dates to 125ad.The ones that were not chosen are called the apocrypha and are kept out of historical interest only
The writings of Paul predate the gospels. Any false records he would have mentioned would not have had anything to do with them.
I can't find any information pertaining to the radiometric dating of Ryland's finds as being accurate to this time frame, much less a reliable method of dating that could be accurate to a specific centurial quartile at all. Can you please cite a good source for this?
@Pernic10us the writings of Paul are from between 48ad(Galatians) and 67ad(2Timothy) while the Gospels were written as such Mark 40-70ad(most place it in 60's)Matthew 50-70 in Jerusalem or 70-80 in Antioch Luke 61 or 62 ad and John 50's .so they were written all about the same time period.James before 50ad Johns letters 85-95ad peters letters 64ad Jude 60-68ad revelation 90-96ad.
@Pernic10us The only set of texts that were banned and destroyed where the Gnostic gospels ,which were heretical documents that were 3rd century creations.
How were these writings deemed heretical over the ones that survived criticism? On what basis did they dismiss them if the purpose was to reveal the truth *through* them?
@Pernic10us When looking at the apocrypha the content does not cleanly match that of the rest of the NT.They were mostly written in the 3rd century so did not qualify as scripture.(meeting age and consistency requirements)
I think I am going to jump to the end here. I think we established earlier that the standard by which we use to decide what is true is different. And that's fine.
Once I was able to let go of the fear of the unknown, I was able to ponder things from a different perspective.
Let's explore what it is you have to believe in order for the bible to be true and wholly accurate. There is an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-loving(?) being that is the ultimate author of reality. -->
This being, capable of truly anything it even thinks or speaks as a possibility. As limitless as such a character is, it is somehow critically plagued with the pettiest of *human* emotions. Possessiveness, jealousy, rage, and insecurity.
It creates and owns everything that exists. The reality it does create consists of a seemingly infinite universe, centered around an insignificant speck. On this rock is a multitude of life, including a primitive self-aware race of apes (us).
With us, it places the only thing that it can not possibly own, free will. If this free will is not consciously returned to it, the consequence is eternal punishment and damnation.
Now, it is even foreseen, that the vast majority of this race will either not know to submit, or refuse to. But for the fractional minority that do sign up for the exclusive ego-stroking club to this transcendental tyrant, will get spend all of eternity serving it indefinitely. -->
All the while knowing that most of those that they loved and lived with are in eternal torment.
No thanks. Even if I did believe such a character existed, I wouldn't want anything to do with it.
It really is too bad that this what you have to think is true in this country in order to be considered the least bit moral. But it is my own morals that makes that scenario so repulsive.
So, a discussion about whether the bible's books are written at a certain time, or by certain people is a moot point. To consider the words true you have to adopt the morals and principles of an era long-gone. And gone for a reason!
No supposed religious revelation has ever played a significant role in the beneficial progress of mankind. We can appreciate the stories and myths without having to impede human knowledge because of them. None of us are chosen above one another. All we have is us.
@Pernic10us How long you burn is determined by your acts in life,for most it will be but an instant.For others,like Hitler,it will last much longer.This would be consistent with Gods justice and mercy.
Any god that can transcend time, and *needs* to create a hell in the first place is not one worthy of worship. I am a mere mortal, limited in intellect, knowledge, and hindered by primitive fears and emotions. Yet, even I can imagine an existence without the need for pain and sacrifice as payment for transgression.
But the god of the bible can not be any better than the primitive men who created it.
@Pernic10us Hell is merely another word for the grave.The time when the world will exist without pain and suffering is coming.As far as payment for wrong doing,we have a criminal justice system in every nation on earth why shouldn't God?
I'm not talking about any of the many interpretations that we have come up with to make the story easier to swallow.
Take it as you like, but I mean the final, conclusive solution to an opposition that is inherently, supposedly, inferior to an infinite being. The lake of fire, Hifhel, Jaheem, or any other idea of eternal damnation.
The courts are a reactionary solution to a natural problem. If any judge could go back, and prevent crimes, but doesn't, is a criminal himself.
@Pernic10us But that would violate the concept of free will,nullifying the concept of true justice.Making us robots incapable of self determination for good or evil.You want free will you have to deal with the consequences of it.That means dealing with evil people or people who are just selfish and uncaring save for themselves.Why blame the creator for something a human being has done?That person is responsible for there actions.
"Love me or die!" This is not free will, it is extortion!
True free will requires the informed evaluation of two or more choices, and acting on a conclusion. What information would we use to do this based on supernatural criteria? You said yourself that concepts in the bible are still debated. Couldn't a perfect god be competent enough to just provided a clear message in the first place?
"dealing with evil people or people who are just selfish and uncaring"
The psychology of selfishness, and what many consider evil, is derived from living in a world with limited resources. When there is not enough to go around, you make sure you, and your offspring, get what is needed to survive.
Besides, there are many, many caring and altruistic people that will shun the Christian doctrine just as easily as I do.
But what is good in some cases is not always good in others. The difference is intent, considering specific consequences.
If a desperate person steals a little to feed her children, is this wrong? If she steals millions of dollars in pension funds, is that also wrong? Both were done to fulfill a need of some sort. How do we decide which one was more or less wrong?
@Pernic10us Like the parallel but the greater evil is that greedy people allowed the situation to arise in the first place.Right and wrong is very black and white..but you must first have all the information
"but the greater evil is that greedy people allowed the situation to arise in the first place."
We could take that all the way back to the source of creation itself, couldn't we?
As I said before, greed and selfishness is derived in an environment where resources are limited. It is wrong when the society in which the crime is committed finds fault with it. Cooperation, and some conformity, is required in a successful community. Rules are imposed accordingly.
@Pernic10us We have the greatest resources in the world in America ..and the greediest people.lack of resources has nothing to do with it.Human nature does.Rich people are more morally bankrupt(greedy and selfish)than your average person.Very few people steal out of need for resources.In fact is an abundance of resources that increases the chances that a person would steal,rob murder, lie etc.
It hasn't always been this way. Until the agricultural revolution, resources were not as readily available. It was during the time before that in which many of our mannerisms were formed generation by generation.
Our current position in this country is rather out of the ordinary in the world. Hunger is still an issue, even for non-Americans. Do me a favor and do a Google image search for "Africa+poverty"
I don't think that I can convince you of that, and I wouldn't try to. But hopefully you have a better understanding of my point of view. I answered your challenge, and feel that I covered the topics you've presented.
I am not blaming anything. I am trying to demonstrate how absurd it is to believe in a perfect, loving god while living in world that we do. In reality, there is no need to beckon a supernatural deity to find answers, or someone to blame.
I don't blame Santa Clause that I did not receive an Aston Martin DBS last Christmas. The reality is that I don't have the economic means to afford one, and a house, and food. Blaming St. Nick is pointless!
You have dodged several of my inquiries, and provided no sources of information to substantiate your claims about biblical (supernatural) evidence in archeology, history and cosmology.
Without real information in front of me, I can not make a good evaluation of these claims. Blind assertions aren't doing either of us any good.
@Pernic10us The eyewitness testimonies in the Gospels and references to Yeshua's abilities in the Jewish Talmud.These are the only direct references created by Eyewitnesses.And there is enough variation to prove they are truth and not myth or exaggeration.But like every atheist I've run across here you hate the Bible and reject it's historical truths despite the fact that is has guided many archeologists to famous sites..like Jericho,Ur,Babylon..need I go on?
Even eyewitness accounts of recent events are hard to rely on. Even that doesn't validate the claims of the bible or Talmud.
Even if we could verify that a charismatic rabbi was raised from the dead, it does not negate the fact that this sort of sacrifice for payment is IMMORAL! It is based on a primitive blood cult practice, and has no place in currently celebrated mythology.
Now, could you please cite your sources of information on these archeological finds?
References to locations mentioned in the mythical texts are not an acceptable form of *evidence*.
The comic book stories of Spider-Man take place in New York. I can actually go to New York. That doesn't prove that Spider-Man exists.
Do you have sources that document the evidence of super-natural occurrences? Or anything from real scientists, or archeologists that support your claim?
It doesn't have to be some shoddy website! I have ready access to a modern college library system. If they don't have a certain book, they can have it here within the week.
Despite the misinformation commonly spewed in churches, and by apologists, I am one of many that would love to learn that I have come to the wrong conclusion!
Please, enlighten me by pointing me in the direction that has so decidedly convinced yourself!
In these archeological finds, it would also be important to be able to identify that supernatural events took place there.
The story of Spiderman, in a series of comic books, takes place in New York City. I can go to NY, and see it for myself. But the fact that NYC exists, is not proof that Spiderman is real!
Also, don't mistake disagreement with hate. I don't find the bible particularly interesting, or entertaining. I definitely don't think that all of its stories are true. But I don't hate it.
That is a demonstration of the divisive nature of religious belief. This is what I abhor about it.
There are no eyewitness accounts in the Gospels. They are all anonymous 2nd, 3rd, and 4th hand accounts which were written down decades after the events described in them were supposed to have occured. They would not be permitted to be entered as evidence in any court of law in the civilised world. Heresay evidence is not permitted in court.
@dingodavid In that respect you are incorrect.The Gospels of John and Matthew were written by there respective authors while Luke was written in the manner you suggest(much like a modern reporter would write his story). Mark was dictated by Peter to John Mark.So all 4 of the Gospels would be admissible in a court of law as evidence.You can testify in court to what is directly said to you so Luke can be included.
The earliest gospel (Mark) wasn't written until around 70 AD. This means that none of the gospels could have been written by eyewitnesses. The names we find attached to our canonical Gospels were atributed to them by church leaders in the second and third centuries. Even so, the church leaders who attached those names to them were only working on heresay evidence themselves. As for the shroud of Turin; it is a 14th century Medieval fake.
@dingodavid The Shroud of Turin is not a fake..they messed up the carbon dating..took a sample from an area that had material of vastly different ages.So that has to be redone..all other data says its real..including pollen samples
@dingodavid Mark was written between 45 and 50ad.that's 15 to 20 years after the Resurrection,Matthew between 50 and 70 Luke 61-62 John 50-70.The majority of the new testament was written between 50 and 60 ad.The witnesses would have still been alive and well able to write the Gospels.Your assertions are faulty.
@ProudPatriotPapa I have already investigated all the claims that you made in your previous few replies, and have found the evidence supporting them to be unconvincing. What I have discovered over the course of these investigations is that religious apologists and religious historians aren't always entirely honest with themselves when examining the evidence for the claims they make.
@ProudPatriotPapa A 2000 year old pollen grain in an ancient cloth does not mean that a man rose from the dead, walked around for a couple of days, then flew off into the sky, never to be seen again.
@dingodavid But it does show where its been and about how old it is.Which proves its age and its travel lineage.from Jerusalem to Antioch to Turkey to Europe.The image fits the forensics and the historically correct form of death.The image is non reproduce able by modern tech. Goto the site I gave you ..spend a week reading there reports then get back to me.
@ProudPatriotPapa Actually, I don't recall reading anywhere that any of the pollen grains were carbon dated. Also, In 2005 an identical reproduction of the shroud was made by draping a wet linen cloth over a bas relief sculpture. Cotton wool, was then used to carefully dab ferric oxide, mixed with gelatine, onto the cloth to make blood-like marks. When the cloth was turned inside-out, the reversed marks resulted in a similar image as is found on the shroud. It was also wash and heat resistant.
@dingodavid I've seen the attempts to reproduce, it all have failed ..some looked similar but had no 3d info contained in the image and failed to leave the image just on the outer fibrils.The marks on it are blood not just blood like marks,that also match the facecloth.
@ProudPatriotPapa Does it strike you as odd that the image on the shroud has one arm longer than the other? Does it also strike you as odd that the image on the shroud appears to be that of a medieval caucasian, rather than a 1st century Palestinian Jew? The image appears to be just what would be expected if the shroud was indeed a Medieval fake. It looks just like the anachronistic representations of Jesus that were painted and sculpted in and around 14th century Europe.
@dingodavid The pollen was dated by the type of plant and region.some of the pollen found is from plants that only grew in the Jerusalem region about 2000 years ago so no carbon dating was needed.
@dingodavid i have to go back and see just which plant(s) were referenced,the 3d computer modeling done doesn't show a European but a middle eastern Jew and the arms and legs are within normal proportions.Your really reaching to try to prove your point.ALL the scientific evidence points to authenticity.All that's needed is confirmation from c14 test.
If you want to support your ridiculous claims, then you should be the one providing the basis of your information! You are clearly not an archeologist, or well informed in anthropological sciences, so I know you are not coming up with this yourself.
There is only one conclusion that I can come to by your repeated refusal to do so. You have absolutely no confidence in the substance of your own education (which is apparently somewhat limited, to be honest).
Which god? There is no substantial evidence to show that any one of the many gods from mythology are more likely real than another.
Any one would require an entirely different set of standards.
In the end, the only way to morally accept your god is by presupposition. Your moral judgment would be based on the fact that only the god could be right, and you would have no compass of your own.
@Pernic10us The doctrine of eternal torture is something that is debated inside the Church still.I am of the opinion,based on scripture, that the only beings held in that state are the beings that are eternal to begin with.The rest of us either receive eternal life or are snuffed out of existence,the lake of fire is eternal, the burning in it isn't.
I didn't make a conscious decision to be an atheist. After learning about religion's history, and claims and the veracity of them, I *discovered* I had become one. It was frightening at first, something I never though possible!
I had no control over what I believed, but had come to terms with it. Now, as I look back, it was the most liberating experience of my life! I have found wonders in this world that dwarf those of the ancient texts! I have never looked back, since.
Upon heeding the call to serve as a deacon, I began to read the bible like I never had. I wanted to know everything about what I had been charged to teach. My reading didn't stop at just the bible. No one in the church had a very much knowledge outside of it. I began to read about the history of it. How it was written, and preserved for us. Then I found out why they don't teach about its history in the church.
Many of my struggles with faith, and religion became very clear.
Proof first was put under spot light by another Christian. She then ask for me to repent ecter, as one say testing god. She made me ashamed of it. I dn why. Seems bit mean . Most convincing was in spirit so means nothing to someone else, very personal and cant share it .
hmm 6 days ago i must been so naive , i no longer think like that. sorry if offend anyone
I am always curious to see what it is that ultimately convinces different people, and how much they have learned about, and from, religious conversions.
Our interpretations of "spiritual" things is interesting to me because they seem to vary per person. That, and I have never had a true spiritual experience myself.
@Flaw55 I dont understand why atheist get so so uptight. Science isnt a requirement for atheism, you dont need to believe in the big bang and evolution or any other scientific fact or theory to believe that there isnt a god. Please try not to be such an arrogant snob. You are making other atheist look bad.
To see him
cybersnake88 3 days ago
Let's see... the actual god will be worth my belief, no you have not seen him, no one has, why believe in something you have never seen? You're not going to see him when you die, your going to see 3 seconds of a dream.
nickimew15 4 days ago
What would it take for me to believe God as described in the Christian Bible?
Honestly? I think that God, as strictly described in the Bible, as already been soundly disproven. For me to believe in him, this universe would have to be physically different from how it is now. The sun would have to revolve around the Earth. The Earth would have to be flat. The sky would have to be a dome with the stars painted on it. And miracles would have to be as dramatic and common as they were in the Bible.
FrankLightheart 1 week ago
Hmmm... Lets see.
Considering atheists are atheists because there is no evidence for God, I can imagine that's what it would take: evidence. No brainer
boscoblack 1 week ago
@boscoblack peoples lack of belief in God is not based on a lack of evidence but what some see as a lack of credible evidence,and other issues such as the problem of evil.not a no brainer..
ProudPatriotPapa 1 week ago
@ProudPatriotPapa Yes, because there is no objective evidence for any supernatural being, some rely on philosophical arguments to come to a conclusion. But the only reason it comes to that is due, again, to the lack of evidence. That's because there is none. And please, if you are arguing for the existence of any of the thousands of gods that have "existed" throughout time, I would be more than happy to hear what great, reliable evidence you have.
boscoblack 6 days ago
@ProudPatriotPapa no evidence no beliefs ,that simple no brainier,why do you always gotta make everything seem more complicated then it actually is? if i told you i had a magic unicorn in my basement ,im pretty sure you wouldn't believe in it until you see it ,same things with all gods .. gods were made up because they had no answers to nothing, you don't know how we came to be? , instead of looking for answers you take the easy way out and say "god did it" religion 101
reym613 1 day ago
I want to see a faith healer who can, upon command, harness the power of the God to restore the severed limb of an amputee. I want to meet the amputee so that I can examine the nub where the limb used to be. I want to examine the limb before and after the "healing." I want to see it firsthand, in front of my own eyes, and in front of a room full of biologists, physicians and skeptics. And I want to see it multiple times. I'm actually curious as to why the faithful have not thought of this first.
fuzycheese 1 week ago
I don't believe in god because science de-bunks most of his stories.
biohazardsoldierPMK 1 week ago
@biohazardsoldierPMK Not true..science has debunked nothing of the sort .It either confirms it or has no bearing upon it.
ProudPatriotPapa 1 week ago
@ProudPatriotPapa Not true. Through Meiosis, a different pair of 23 chromosomes are needed to make a stable and healthy child. In the Bible, it is not only said that Adam and Eve created the rest of the human off-spring, but Adam made Eve with one of his ribs. Through the two, humanity would not be able to survive. There would need to be more than 2, more than 100.
biohazardsoldierPMK 1 week ago
Gods fall into the category of unobservable things that have no apparent effect on the perceptible universe. Any specific member of this category is as likely as any other because there is no reliable method of demonstrating its existence. The number of possible unobservable things is infinite, so our odds are not good that we would guess correctly.
My conversion would be very easy to a religion based on reality. It would just take a confluence of evidence, like with anything else I believe.
BrooklynRagtag 1 week ago
This is actually not that bad a question. Except for the part where you said the god of the bible. For me to believe in the god of the bible he would have to show up on my doorstep and fly me up to see heaven and hell because there is no other possible series of events in which I could even contemplate the existence of such a stupid self centred jealous A-Hole. If it is indeed the god of the bible who exists I would rather go to hell then spend my after life worshiping him
masterE000 2 weeks ago
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@ProudPatriotPapa "What would it take for you to belive in god? What evidence and proof would you require?"
I honestly don't know but I imagine it would be the similar to the evidence that it would take to convert you to any of the following:- Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Cheondoism, Taoism, Shinto, Spiritism, The Rastafari movement, Scientology etc.
MrSitemaster2 2 weeks ago in playlist Commented Videos
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@ProudPatriotPapa Why atheism, I always had questions when I was a kid and I was never truly satisfied with the given answers. As I grew older, I became aware of other faiths, then I thought to myself If I was born to:- a Hindu, a Sikh, a Muslim, a Jew, a Buddhist, an Aboriginal, a native American Indian, a Shinto family, a Taoist, an Akan family, a Scientologist etc. Wouldn't I just follow the family religion as most people do? If so then doesn't that make religion just an accident of birth?
MrSitemaster2 2 weeks ago
Atheism is not a belief, it's a refusal to believe. In my case because of a total lack of proof, and the reasoning that faith can be blinding if not questioned. I questioned, and concluded that god does not exist. I can't believe in unicorns because they do not exist. This is not lack of belief in unicorns it is fact. Good luck to those who do believe but count of out.
ianmc42 1 month ago
The evidence is the lack of evidence for god. What would be enough evidence? I'm not sure but things you can instantly remove from the list.
The Bible or any verse in it.
Personal testimony.
Logical fallacys.
Guesswork. (lets be honest nobody cares what you think)
doombow666 1 month ago
Atheists tend to require scientific evidence of God. Which is rather anomalous because if God were scientifically proven, then It would be a utility of science. It would be x in that final equation. Ergo, God would not be God.
As for the Bible God..well, that one can be anything anyone likes to think It is.
valarmanwe 1 month ago
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valarmanwe 1 month ago
Too many faults in the bible. Too much threats of....or else! The clarity of looking on the outside and seeing that it (the bible) is a tool to control masses of people is apparently obvious to anyone who tries to see the truth and asks why.
1coffeecup 2 months ago
@1coffeecup You are correct, especially in saying the bible is a tool. In the past preist used the bible to gain wealth and power by telling people to buy their way into "heaven".
Grrx8 1 month ago
its not a question to atheists, B/c we do not have an answer.. What we do have is questions... Why god? where did god come from? who made god? what made god? why does the swin flu evolve and other viruses? Why was there a group of people that voted in what went into the bible? Why wasn't all the books put into the bibile? Why change from old testoment to new? and atheists questions go on and on and on... Just saying!!!
curemymind 2 months ago
@curemymind You might be interested in a video in YT titled "Fr.F.C. Copleston vs. Bertrand Russell,"
valarmanwe 1 month ago
@valarmanwe But my questions would still stand no matter what i see..
curemymind 1 month ago
@curemymind What question is that ?
valarmanwe 1 month ago
@valarmanwe That should be obvious... don't you think? I did state them at the beginning and its not just one question... Your question would of been more acceptable like so "what questions would that be?" Just give any subject and it produces more questions then it can possibly answer.. Where are we (which i mean me or you or other) are satified to stop asking questions? Do you see how i produce more questions than can be answered?
curemymind 1 month ago
@curemymind I do indeed see that. That is my point. Ie, that the answesr are there for science to discover, and when they are discovered they becomes part of science. And when the next question is answered, it too becomes part of science. That is what I meant when I said that if God were discoverd by science, then God would not be God.
A digression: Did you listen to Copleston vs. Russell ?
valarmanwe 1 month ago
@valarmanwe :|... I got that long time ago.. I have yet to find the time to listen to Copleston vs Russell.. But i will have some time off soon for this.. I work in an office which im trying to get out of, but i do have some time to check my comments and video comments... I just don't have a lot of time on me to properly listen.. But i will.. thanks for the info.. I always like to listen to different people as listening is one of the hardest things a person can do...
curemymind 1 month ago
For me: If this is a decision that would impact my life in a way that would cause me to live for eternity or burn for eternity then god would need to make himself known in a literal sense. If he was real then not a single person could deny or doubt his existence. Religion wouldn't be set up in a way that he can remain hidden and he shouldn't have to leave it up to sinful humans to push it on people. He should notice Atheist's concerns and not just ignore them and send us to hell anyway.
Thanks
OfficialOmegaVoX 2 months ago
I'll use the words of Matt Dillahunty, I don't know what it would take, but if your god is what the bible says he is, then HE knows what it would take, and would have the power to do it. The fact that your god has not proven himself shows that he either wants me to go to hell, or doesn't exist. If he wants me to go to hell, then your god is an asshole. There is more evidence suggesting that your god doesn't exist. Following the evidence and facts leads to the conclusion that god doesn't exist.
TenchiJeff 2 months ago 7
@TenchiJeff What evidence is it that suggests he does not exist?
ProudPatriotPapa 2 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa Lets apply some reason to this. 1. The bible says God created the Universe roughly 6,000 years ago, we know that this is wrong. 2. An all powerful being that created everything, could not find some peaceful alternative to "wicked" behaviour, and used a genocidal flood as the answer. If god is as powerful as the bible says, then he would have been able to find another more peaceful solution. 3 Jesus. god sacrifices himself, to himself, to create a loophole in a rule he created.
TenchiJeff 2 months ago 2
@TenchiJeff What I'm really getting down to, is that it makes no sense at all. Things that are real, ARE REAL. My tv, my desk, gravity. These are all things that can be measured and proven to be real. The burden of proof is on those that claim that their is a god. If you say that god is a being that cannot be measured, and exists outside of reality, then that is same as NOT BEING REAL!
TenchiJeff 2 months ago
@TenchiJeff A 7 dimensional being is real..we do not as of yet have the technology to interact with such in a way you ( and all of science )would accept.
ProudPatriotPapa 2 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa Wonderful how you are unable to address my points, and instead respond with "he's real" and don't give any reason or evidence.
TenchiJeff 2 months ago
@TenchiJeff Misconception 1..the bible does not say exactly how long ago the universe was created.I'll send you a vid to straighten that out.The flood eliminated an entire generation of people so evil even modern atheists would call for there destruction.Why he chose the solution He did we don't know.human beings are not capable of seeing the results of our actions in the short term let alone the entire term of human history.So that is kinda moot point.
ProudPatriotPapa 2 months ago
@proudpatriotpapa - Let me get this straight: You are proposing that a half human, half god, child was born to a 13 year-old virgin girl in 1st century Palestine. The child then completely disappears from history for the next 30 years, then suddenly turns up again preaching that the end of the world is about to take place. He was then executed by the Roman authorities for sedition and disturbing the peace, was then miraculously raised from the dead...TBC...
dingodavid 2 months ago
@dingodavid Scripture doesn't give Mary's age,so your off there.You have his birth,toddler events ,youth events then from 12 to 30 nothing is said.He did not preach the end of the world was about to happen but the destruction of Israel.The last days and his return are prophesied as much later events.He was found innocent by the Romans of any crime,guilty of blasphemy by the Jewish leaders because he claimed to be the Messiah,the Son of God.He died was resurrected on the 3rd day.
ProudPatriotPapa 2 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa I recall hearing, that Jesus did say the rapture would happen within the lifetime of his followers.
TenchiJeff 2 months ago
@ proudpatriotpapa - P2...He then secretly appeared to only a small group of his closest followers on and off for a few days, and then flew away into the sky never to be seen again.
And yet you claim that I'm the one reaching? OK???
dingodavid 2 months ago
@dingodavid He appeared publicly to over 500 of his followers over the course of the following 40 days then ascended in front of multiple witnesses.His Resurrection appears to have marked the cloth used to bury him in.His miracles were even acknowledged by his enemies.He will return in the same manner he left.All this is documented better than the life of most Caesar's by eyewitnesses.So you can accept there report or not.
ProudPatriotPapa 2 months ago
@ proudpatriotpapa: I assume that you reject the claims all other religions apart from the one that you belong to. When you understand why you reject the claims of all other religions, then you will understand why atheists simply go one step further, and reject the claims of your religion as well. Atheists are simply being consistent.
Evidence? Some well documented and irrefutable miracles would help, as well as proof that praying to the god of the Bible actually does something.
dingodavid 3 months ago
Atheism isn't a belief. It is a lack of a belief.
xbertocoaylax 3 months ago
@xbertocoaylax look at the description of the video please..
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@robtheman74
No, I t is simply impossible, unless an athaeist thinks of his wroldview as irrational.
The egsistence of God is not the only one issue, but it also contains many, sometimes different statements of every aspect of life, of the wrold of all that sorrounds us. Atheism is in 6/7 Theism with additional letter A, wich stands for an opposition. It is opposite view for theist view, so it has to deny all of the theist claims, not the major one. And, that is what atheist are trying to do.
SirLuke3375 3 months ago
@SirLuke3375 Haha the A before actually means an absence of. It's greek. from a- "without" + theos "a god" Two greek words.
xbertocoaylax 3 months ago
im just making an assumption, and by no means trying to offend.
but since you're a christian, i assume that you dont believe in allah, or zeus, or thor.
what it would take for me to believe in a christian god, is what it would take for a christian who doesnt believe in zeus to turn around and believe in him.
hope to hear back from you, sir.
KILLYOSELF666 3 months ago
Atheism isn't a belief. It is a responce to the claim that god(s) exist. Theists claim that gods exist, atheists don't accept that claim due to a lack of evidence. I assume you do not accept that the gods of the greek/roman pantheon (Zeus, Apollo, Venus, etc) are real. That makes you an atheist with respect to those gods. Now carry over that frame of reference with respect to ALL gods and you will understand the point of atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief. It makes no claims.
robtheman74 3 months ago
@robtheman74 By definition atheism claims there are no deities of any kind .period.That is a claim in and of itself.not just in reference to one particular deity.So what makes you think this way?
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa Because there is no evidence for the existence of any Gods. If you say Leprechauns do not exist, you do not need to prove that they don't exist (because you cannot prove a negative) but Leprechauns or those who believe in them must show themselves to exist. As far as an atheist is concerned, God and Leprechauns are equally false until proven true.
TheSobek 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa atheism doesn't claim anything. It just doesn't believe anyone else's claim. Comes from the greek word "Atheos" A meaning an absence of or lacking, and THEOS meaning god. An Atheist has no god.
xbertocoaylax 3 months ago
Evidence to convert an atheist?
For starters...
There ought to be multiple video recordings, showing multiple angles of the biblical God showing up at his book signing, transported to Earth via lightning bolt. And seeing him autograph bibles!
seanmatthewrosen 3 months ago
I stopped believing in God when I was 10 year old. The reason at the time does not matter. The reason I can not believe in the God of the Bible is because I can not see a good loving God in the Bible, instead I see a cruel God. Even the whole story about Jesus is just plain cruel in my eyes. In order for me to believe, I would need to see proof that such a god is a loving god and that he is real.
darththeo 3 months ago
@darththeo The scourging and Crucifixion was taken by Yeshua(Jesus)in our place.Jesus was the physical manifestation of God as foretold in the old testament. he will make two appearances,one to save our souls one to rule over us.He took our just punishment upon himself.No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his friends.I can't explain all the events that happen in this world.Some are extremely evil some extremely good.But they are all done by men.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa What father sends his own son to basically be a lamb to slaughter? That is "love" ... I am sorry, that is no love I know or want. Jesus first came for the sole reason to die ... I find that rather cruel. I don't see love there.
darththeo 3 months ago
@darththeo And will be judged by God in the end.If you want more details you can continue this here or pm me.I sense there are some things you do not want to discuss in public.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa I will only be judged by God if he is real and that god judges us.
darththeo 3 months ago
I was raised in the church, and was very close to being ordained as a deacon, after discipleship. As fervent as I was about serving the church, and its members, I never felt any kind of spiritual presence. I supposed it had to be there, but just not exposing itself to me.
I found that what convinces us is not always based on the same things for all people. Some, were completely convinced with the giddy feeling they had during worship. Others, like me, need more. We are not as open to suggestion
Pernic10us 4 months ago
@Pernic10us Which church?or denomination?It can make a huge difference.
ProudPatriotPapa 4 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Not really. Different denominations may have particular incantations or traditions they feel are more important than others. They may have disparate views on certain historical event, and their importance. It doesn't give any of them any more credibility, as all of their beliefs are based on the same thing.
I suppose you are going to tell me that your preferred flavor is the right one, when all the others are mistaken. But, how do you know?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us Your ignorance of Christianity shows in this statement,there are huge differences between say Jehovah's witnesses and Catholics and Mormons and protestants.So which one were you?
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Do you consider JW's or Mormons Christians?
I cut my first 'debate' teeth on JW's and Mormons.
I was a KJ-based, although I didn't use just the KJ, prayin', lovin' Christian. I think the church had a foundation in Baptist, but were not crazy snake-wielding types.
Like I said, it doesn't matter, though. Faith is the fundamental ingredient in religious belief, and I have no faith in faith. Different interpretations of the bible are all still presuming that it is all true.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us So what part did you think was not true?Every historical event in the old and new testament has been shown to be real and accurate by archeology, cosmology,physics and m theory.So what s the problem?
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
I'm sorry, this is not true.
There is not enough space in these comment boxes to elaborate on all the errors in this claim. The bible includes explanations of the world from a Bronze Age level of understanding, and point of view. Much of it was borrowed from earlier ideologies, which are all also false.
This is beside the fact that the idea of original sin, and primitive blood cult rituals to cure it is immoral and reprehensible.
How much have you studied about history?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us i know where your going with this I think..Zeitgeist? that has been debunked very thoroughly.By secular and religious scholars alike.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
Comment removed
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Zeitgeist?!
Really?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us That's what I've gotten every time a person here has claimed that Judaism/Christianity was rooted in Egyptian or other Roman faiths.You have something different?
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
It had some good information on earlier messianic heroes, but there is no way to reliably draw a direct connection to the character of Jesus, or any of the idolic characters of the Old Testament. It doesn't matter though.
I have written many comments now, (probably too many). Please make sure you use "Veiw all comments" instead of just replying to the ones that show up in your message inbox. It is hard to fit everything in 500 chars for us loquacious YT users.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Would you mind citing a few of your favorite sources of information that would support cosmological or archeological accuracies in the bible?
How does the String Theory have anything to do with the bible?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us string theory covers the multidimensional existence of matter and energy.It allows for the Creator to exist both as part of our universe and outside of it at the same time.to be eternal and for the existence of a literal hell and heaven.As to cosmology I'll send you a video on that one.It covers creation and evolution as well.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
That is a huge leap to insert a creator here. Much of String Theory is still purely conceptual. It includes assertions itself that are very difficult to test and verify. Even what we do understand is very complex and hard to understand by laymen, myself included. There is nothing about it to suggest that there is a creator hiding in the cracks somewhere. That is a blind assertion based on a presupposition. We could propose any number of supernatural claims like this. -->
Pernic10us 3 months ago
There is no way to prove one is more likely than the other. You can just choose the one that sounds best to you, but this is no better than wishful thinking.
Deepak Chopra has a number of claims based on "Quantum Physics" as well. And there is no way to dismiss them with the logic that you are using to correlate M Theory to the existence of your particular god.
This is based on an old form of argument we call God of the Gaps. It is a fallacy.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us I never said it proves his existence but it does allow for it.combined with Dawkins proof from biology of design in evolution it makes for a strong case for the existence of God not against it.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
I don't make the same conclusion about anything Dawkins has said or published.
There are literally infinite amounts of things that are possible, but not observed. None of us can claim to have all of the answers, or be able to disprove every claim. This is not justification for asserting things based on religious dogma. Especially the absurd suppositions of Christianity, or any other deistic theology.
Back to the bible. I would like to see the video you mentioned.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Also, a question about biblical accuracy. Would just one instance of inaccuracy be sufficient?
How substantial would it need to be?
Have you explored the texts from other religions that have similar claims to the ones in the bible?
Just trying to get an idea of where this conversation is going.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us yes i have explored the text of Islam and Judaism.So what inaccuracy are you going to try to bring up?In every supposed one I've heard it has been a misunderstanding of the person reading the text (taking things out of context ) or deliberately twisting clear meaning of the text. Don't forget the cultural context of some of the old testament scriptures.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
Comment removed
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us this thread has gotten off base a bit ..you claimed you found issues with the origins of the Bible and i asked what they were ..still waiting for an answer to that.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Oh. You're right. Sorry about that.
Historically, I thought the stories of Eden, the Tower Babel, and Noah's flood to be anecdotal, at best. I felt that symbolically they were relevant and added to the bigger picture of the character of god. This led to a bit of contention with my fellow congregants that insisted them to be true. I think this is where I really started to dig into archeology, biology, and the history of the bible itself.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Turns out that according to evidence uncovered through exploration, these things could not have possibly happened. If my faith was supposed to based on the veracity of these claims it was not going to have much of a foundation. This is where my critical mind really began to stretch it's legs. I looked to the known Christian apologists to get a perspective that should have been closer to mine (Romans 12:2). What I found was a frustrating string of fallacies.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
I wanted to know where the disconnect was. There had to be a misunderstanding about a passage, or contextual errors due to culture changes. I spoke to my leaders and those I admired so much growing up in the church for a little guidance. Surely someone had been where I was, and found the answer, faith intact.
The only responses I got were along the lines of, "Just pray, and God will tell you through your faith."
But as I mentioned before, I was not on god's mailing list.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
I'm droning on a bit again.
Basically, I have found no reliable extra-biblical sources of information that any of the supernatural claims in it. This didn't even do it yet, though. I figured that there must be some great conspiracy of lies that have been concocted to hide the real truth.
But there isn't. The scientific method is built on a system of demonstrable evidence. It shows that the Universe does not revolve around us. We did not come from two humans in a garden.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
...And snakes do not have anything that resemble vocal chords!
This left me with only the moral reasoning for holding on to faith. I began to think about what sin is, how it came to be. How is it defined, and measured. But these are just concepts inside our own minds, strictly from our own perspectives.
What was this "gift of salvation" that was teetering on the line?
Is pain, and the shedding of blood a *good* way to solve problems, or pay debts?
No. It isn't.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
I think that the process of collection and authorization of the books in the bible we have now is one of things that was a turning point for me. I was not even aware of how it was carried out, and neither did any of the leaders or elders in my church. (They were also sure that the "B.C.-A.D." calendar change was initiated because of Jesus.)
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us yes i know what you mean about limited space here,i get wordy myself sometimes.the new testament scriptures were written from about 45ad to about 90-95 ad.Some were dictated ,some were hand written by there authors As the need arose for teaching material among the churches that did not have a direct disciple leading them.A standard was required,A council was formed and the material reviewed.the criteria used was authenticity ,agreement with doctrine,and age of material considered.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
It is hard to determine when they were written, we don't have any of the original manuscripts. They were pieced together as best as could be done at the time. In some cases, such as the parts of the gospel that are considered synoptic, they had to borrow from one (mostly Mark) to fill the gaps of record.
"A council was formed and the material reviewed.the criteria used was authenticity ,agreement with doctrine"
This is one of my greatest contentions with the process. -->
Pernic10us 3 months ago
The church, and its doctrine had already been established by the time they were authorizing the texts on which the doctrine would be governed. How many did they have to choose from, and what was left out?
It is important also to know when the council was formed and charged to carry out the process of canonization. It wasn't anywhere near 95 CE.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us One of the issues they had to deal with was false letters/scriptures were being passed around at the same time the originals were.there is mention of this by Paul in his letters.The last book of the New testament was written between 90-95 ad(revelation). the oldest fragment is from the book of john(the John Ryland fragment) and it dates to 125ad.The ones that were not chosen are called the apocrypha and are kept out of historical interest only
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
The writings of Paul predate the gospels. Any false records he would have mentioned would not have had anything to do with them.
I can't find any information pertaining to the radiometric dating of Ryland's finds as being accurate to this time frame, much less a reliable method of dating that could be accurate to a specific centurial quartile at all. Can you please cite a good source for this?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us the writings of Paul are from between 48ad(Galatians) and 67ad(2Timothy) while the Gospels were written as such Mark 40-70ad(most place it in 60's)Matthew 50-70 in Jerusalem or 70-80 in Antioch Luke 61 or 62 ad and John 50's .so they were written all about the same time period.James before 50ad Johns letters 85-95ad peters letters 64ad Jude 60-68ad revelation 90-96ad.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@Pernic10us The only set of texts that were banned and destroyed where the Gnostic gospels ,which were heretical documents that were 3rd century creations.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
How were these writings deemed heretical over the ones that survived criticism? On what basis did they dismiss them if the purpose was to reveal the truth *through* them?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us When looking at the apocrypha the content does not cleanly match that of the rest of the NT.They were mostly written in the 3rd century so did not qualify as scripture.(meeting age and consistency requirements)
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
I think I am going to jump to the end here. I think we established earlier that the standard by which we use to decide what is true is different. And that's fine.
Once I was able to let go of the fear of the unknown, I was able to ponder things from a different perspective.
Let's explore what it is you have to believe in order for the bible to be true and wholly accurate. There is an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-loving(?) being that is the ultimate author of reality. -->
Pernic10us 3 months ago
This being, capable of truly anything it even thinks or speaks as a possibility. As limitless as such a character is, it is somehow critically plagued with the pettiest of *human* emotions. Possessiveness, jealousy, rage, and insecurity.
It creates and owns everything that exists. The reality it does create consists of a seemingly infinite universe, centered around an insignificant speck. On this rock is a multitude of life, including a primitive self-aware race of apes (us).
Pernic10us 3 months ago
With us, it places the only thing that it can not possibly own, free will. If this free will is not consciously returned to it, the consequence is eternal punishment and damnation.
Now, it is even foreseen, that the vast majority of this race will either not know to submit, or refuse to. But for the fractional minority that do sign up for the exclusive ego-stroking club to this transcendental tyrant, will get spend all of eternity serving it indefinitely. -->
Pernic10us 3 months ago
All the while knowing that most of those that they loved and lived with are in eternal torment.
No thanks. Even if I did believe such a character existed, I wouldn't want anything to do with it.
It really is too bad that this what you have to think is true in this country in order to be considered the least bit moral. But it is my own morals that makes that scenario so repulsive.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
So, a discussion about whether the bible's books are written at a certain time, or by certain people is a moot point. To consider the words true you have to adopt the morals and principles of an era long-gone. And gone for a reason!
No supposed religious revelation has ever played a significant role in the beneficial progress of mankind. We can appreciate the stories and myths without having to impede human knowledge because of them. None of us are chosen above one another. All we have is us.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us How long you burn is determined by your acts in life,for most it will be but an instant.For others,like Hitler,it will last much longer.This would be consistent with Gods justice and mercy.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Any god that can transcend time, and *needs* to create a hell in the first place is not one worthy of worship. I am a mere mortal, limited in intellect, knowledge, and hindered by primitive fears and emotions. Yet, even I can imagine an existence without the need for pain and sacrifice as payment for transgression.
But the god of the bible can not be any better than the primitive men who created it.
Cheers!
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us Hell is merely another word for the grave.The time when the world will exist without pain and suffering is coming.As far as payment for wrong doing,we have a criminal justice system in every nation on earth why shouldn't God?
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
I'm not talking about any of the many interpretations that we have come up with to make the story easier to swallow.
Take it as you like, but I mean the final, conclusive solution to an opposition that is inherently, supposedly, inferior to an infinite being. The lake of fire, Hifhel, Jaheem, or any other idea of eternal damnation.
The courts are a reactionary solution to a natural problem. If any judge could go back, and prevent crimes, but doesn't, is a criminal himself.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us But that would violate the concept of free will,nullifying the concept of true justice.Making us robots incapable of self determination for good or evil.You want free will you have to deal with the consequences of it.That means dealing with evil people or people who are just selfish and uncaring save for themselves.Why blame the creator for something a human being has done?That person is responsible for there actions.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
"Love me or die!" This is not free will, it is extortion!
True free will requires the informed evaluation of two or more choices, and acting on a conclusion. What information would we use to do this based on supernatural criteria? You said yourself that concepts in the bible are still debated. Couldn't a perfect god be competent enough to just provided a clear message in the first place?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
"dealing with evil people or people who are just selfish and uncaring"
The psychology of selfishness, and what many consider evil, is derived from living in a world with limited resources. When there is not enough to go around, you make sure you, and your offspring, get what is needed to survive.
Besides, there are many, many caring and altruistic people that will shun the Christian doctrine just as easily as I do.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us so you call good evil and evil good?
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
No.
But what is good in some cases is not always good in others. The difference is intent, considering specific consequences.
If a desperate person steals a little to feed her children, is this wrong? If she steals millions of dollars in pension funds, is that also wrong? Both were done to fulfill a need of some sort. How do we decide which one was more or less wrong?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us Like the parallel but the greater evil is that greedy people allowed the situation to arise in the first place.Right and wrong is very black and white..but you must first have all the information
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
So how about the scenario I offered? Which one is, if just one, is wrong? What does the bible have to say about it?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
"but the greater evil is that greedy people allowed the situation to arise in the first place."
We could take that all the way back to the source of creation itself, couldn't we?
As I said before, greed and selfishness is derived in an environment where resources are limited. It is wrong when the society in which the crime is committed finds fault with it. Cooperation, and some conformity, is required in a successful community. Rules are imposed accordingly.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us We have the greatest resources in the world in America ..and the greediest people.lack of resources has nothing to do with it.Human nature does.Rich people are more morally bankrupt(greedy and selfish)than your average person.Very few people steal out of need for resources.In fact is an abundance of resources that increases the chances that a person would steal,rob murder, lie etc.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
It hasn't always been this way. Until the agricultural revolution, resources were not as readily available. It was during the time before that in which many of our mannerisms were formed generation by generation.
Our current position in this country is rather out of the ordinary in the world. Hunger is still an issue, even for non-Americans. Do me a favor and do a Google image search for "Africa+poverty"
Would you mind answering my question now?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us no you cannot blame God for man's actions no matter how much you want to.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
You are absolutely correct!
It is because there is no god to blame.
I don't think that I can convince you of that, and I wouldn't try to. But hopefully you have a better understanding of my point of view. I answered your challenge, and feel that I covered the topics you've presented.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us They why do you keep shifting the blame onto him?instead of man where it belongs?You cannot have it both ways.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
I am not blaming anything. I am trying to demonstrate how absurd it is to believe in a perfect, loving god while living in world that we do. In reality, there is no need to beckon a supernatural deity to find answers, or someone to blame.
I don't blame Santa Clause that I did not receive an Aston Martin DBS last Christmas. The reality is that I don't have the economic means to afford one, and a house, and food. Blaming St. Nick is pointless!
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
So no reply on the question?
You have dodged several of my inquiries, and provided no sources of information to substantiate your claims about biblical (supernatural) evidence in archeology, history and cosmology.
Without real information in front of me, I can not make a good evaluation of these claims. Blind assertions aren't doing either of us any good.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us The eyewitness testimonies in the Gospels and references to Yeshua's abilities in the Jewish Talmud.These are the only direct references created by Eyewitnesses.And there is enough variation to prove they are truth and not myth or exaggeration.But like every atheist I've run across here you hate the Bible and reject it's historical truths despite the fact that is has guided many archeologists to famous sites..like Jericho,Ur,Babylon..need I go on?
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Even eyewitness accounts of recent events are hard to rely on. Even that doesn't validate the claims of the bible or Talmud.
Even if we could verify that a charismatic rabbi was raised from the dead, it does not negate the fact that this sort of sacrifice for payment is IMMORAL! It is based on a primitive blood cult practice, and has no place in currently celebrated mythology.
Now, could you please cite your sources of information on these archeological finds?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us City of Jericho,UL,Sodom,Gomorrah,Niniva, Babylon..etc Culture of the Hittites...You really should read more
ProudPatriotPapa 1 week ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
References to locations mentioned in the mythical texts are not an acceptable form of *evidence*.
The comic book stories of Spider-Man take place in New York. I can actually go to New York. That doesn't prove that Spider-Man exists.
Do you have sources that document the evidence of super-natural occurrences? Or anything from real scientists, or archeologists that support your claim?
Pernic10us 1 day ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
It doesn't have to be some shoddy website! I have ready access to a modern college library system. If they don't have a certain book, they can have it here within the week.
Despite the misinformation commonly spewed in churches, and by apologists, I am one of many that would love to learn that I have come to the wrong conclusion!
Please, enlighten me by pointing me in the direction that has so decidedly convinced yourself!
Pernic10us 1 day ago
@Pernic10us The bible itself
ProudPatriotPapa 1 day ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Any extra-biblical sources to verify?
The bible itself is only one source. And it is one that has been exclusively under the control of those that hold it sacred. Dogmatically so.
One can start there, but it is premature to make any conclusions. There are no modern historical evidence of some of its cornerstone claims.
Pernic10us 21 hours ago
@ProudPatriotPapa The bible contains so many logical fallacies even in the first book of each testament, it makes for a horrible source material.
LegalizeMyFreedom 7 hours ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
In these archeological finds, it would also be important to be able to identify that supernatural events took place there.
The story of Spiderman, in a series of comic books, takes place in New York City. I can go to NY, and see it for myself. But the fact that NYC exists, is not proof that Spiderman is real!
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Also, don't mistake disagreement with hate. I don't find the bible particularly interesting, or entertaining. I definitely don't think that all of its stories are true. But I don't hate it.
That is a demonstration of the divisive nature of religious belief. This is what I abhor about it.
Disagreement ≠ Hate or Discrimination.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
There are no eyewitness accounts in the Gospels. They are all anonymous 2nd, 3rd, and 4th hand accounts which were written down decades after the events described in them were supposed to have occured. They would not be permitted to be entered as evidence in any court of law in the civilised world. Heresay evidence is not permitted in court.
dingodavid 3 months ago
@dingodavid In that respect you are incorrect.The Gospels of John and Matthew were written by there respective authors while Luke was written in the manner you suggest(much like a modern reporter would write his story). Mark was dictated by Peter to John Mark.So all 4 of the Gospels would be admissible in a court of law as evidence.You can testify in court to what is directly said to you so Luke can be included.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
The earliest gospel (Mark) wasn't written until around 70 AD. This means that none of the gospels could have been written by eyewitnesses. The names we find attached to our canonical Gospels were atributed to them by church leaders in the second and third centuries. Even so, the church leaders who attached those names to them were only working on heresay evidence themselves. As for the shroud of Turin; it is a 14th century Medieval fake.
dingodavid 3 months ago in playlist My Videos
@dingodavid The Shroud of Turin is not a fake..they messed up the carbon dating..took a sample from an area that had material of vastly different ages.So that has to be redone..all other data says its real..including pollen samples
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@dingodavid Mark was written between 45 and 50ad.that's 15 to 20 years after the Resurrection,Matthew between 50 and 70 Luke 61-62 John 50-70.The majority of the new testament was written between 50 and 60 ad.The witnesses would have still been alive and well able to write the Gospels.Your assertions are faulty.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa I have already investigated all the claims that you made in your previous few replies, and have found the evidence supporting them to be unconvincing. What I have discovered over the course of these investigations is that religious apologists and religious historians aren't always entirely honest with themselves when examining the evidence for the claims they make.
dingodavid 3 months ago
@dingodavid How so ?a 2000 year old pollen grain is what it is regardless of your viewpoint.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa A 2000 year old pollen grain in an ancient cloth does not mean that a man rose from the dead, walked around for a couple of days, then flew off into the sky, never to be seen again.
dingodavid 3 months ago
@dingodavid But it does show where its been and about how old it is.Which proves its age and its travel lineage.from Jerusalem to Antioch to Turkey to Europe.The image fits the forensics and the historically correct form of death.The image is non reproduce able by modern tech. Goto the site I gave you ..spend a week reading there reports then get back to me.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa Actually, I don't recall reading anywhere that any of the pollen grains were carbon dated. Also, In 2005 an identical reproduction of the shroud was made by draping a wet linen cloth over a bas relief sculpture. Cotton wool, was then used to carefully dab ferric oxide, mixed with gelatine, onto the cloth to make blood-like marks. When the cloth was turned inside-out, the reversed marks resulted in a similar image as is found on the shroud. It was also wash and heat resistant.
dingodavid 3 months ago
@dingodavid I've seen the attempts to reproduce, it all have failed ..some looked similar but had no 3d info contained in the image and failed to leave the image just on the outer fibrils.The marks on it are blood not just blood like marks,that also match the facecloth.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
Comment removed
dingodavid 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ProudPatriotPapa Does it strike you as odd that the image on the shroud has one arm longer than the other? Does it also strike you as odd that the image on the shroud appears to be that of a medieval caucasian, rather than a 1st century Palestinian Jew? The image appears to be just what would be expected if the shroud was indeed a Medieval fake. It looks just like the anachronistic representations of Jesus that were painted and sculpted in and around 14th century Europe.
dingodavid 3 months ago
@dingodavid The pollen was dated by the type of plant and region.some of the pollen found is from plants that only grew in the Jerusalem region about 2000 years ago so no carbon dating was needed.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa What plants were growing in the middle east 2000 years ago which aren't still growing there today, or indeed in the 14th century?
dingodavid 3 months ago
@dingodavid i have to go back and see just which plant(s) were referenced,the 3d computer modeling done doesn't show a European but a middle eastern Jew and the arms and legs are within normal proportions.Your really reaching to try to prove your point.ALL the scientific evidence points to authenticity.All that's needed is confirmation from c14 test.
ProudPatriotPapa 2 months ago
@Pernic10us Oh no..you want to know search for yourself..don't be intellectually lazy.Treat it as a term paper..do the research for yourself.
ProudPatriotPapa 1 week ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
If you want to support your ridiculous claims, then you should be the one providing the basis of your information! You are clearly not an archeologist, or well informed in anthropological sciences, so I know you are not coming up with this yourself.
There is only one conclusion that I can come to by your repeated refusal to do so. You have absolutely no confidence in the substance of your own education (which is apparently somewhat limited, to be honest).
Pernic10us 1 day ago
@Pernic10us God is no more responsible for our actions than a parent who has adult children is responsible for there grown offspring's actions.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Which god? There is no substantial evidence to show that any one of the many gods from mythology are more likely real than another.
Any one would require an entirely different set of standards.
In the end, the only way to morally accept your god is by presupposition. Your moral judgment would be based on the fact that only the god could be right, and you would have no compass of your own.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us The doctrine of eternal torture is something that is debated inside the Church still.I am of the opinion,based on scripture, that the only beings held in that state are the beings that are eternal to begin with.The rest of us either receive eternal life or are snuffed out of existence,the lake of fire is eternal, the burning in it isn't.
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@Pernic10us Had to send links to your profile page ..it would not let me post them here..sorry bout that
ProudPatriotPapa 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
I didn't make a conscious decision to be an atheist. After learning about religion's history, and claims and the veracity of them, I *discovered* I had become one. It was frightening at first, something I never though possible!
I had no control over what I believed, but had come to terms with it. Now, as I look back, it was the most liberating experience of my life! I have found wonders in this world that dwarf those of the ancient texts! I have never looked back, since.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@ProudPatriotPapa
Upon heeding the call to serve as a deacon, I began to read the bible like I never had. I wanted to know everything about what I had been charged to teach. My reading didn't stop at just the bible. No one in the church had a very much knowledge outside of it. I began to read about the history of it. How it was written, and preserved for us. Then I found out why they don't teach about its history in the church.
Many of my struggles with faith, and religion became very clear.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
Yup i was atheist that had very thing he said happen i basically asked myself what be proof. i then asked. Now Christian.
New age atheist, if you try arguing you showing weakness in your state of mind thus meaning you agnostic.
If you look outside in field and see no one would you go out and start shooting at the no one?
soMeRandoM670 4 months ago
@soMeRandoM670
What proof was the most convincing to you?
Pernic10us 3 months ago
@Pernic10us
Proof first was put under spot light by another Christian. She then ask for me to repent ecter, as one say testing god. She made me ashamed of it. I dn why. Seems bit mean . Most convincing was in spirit so means nothing to someone else, very personal and cant share it .
hmm 6 days ago i must been so naive , i no longer think like that. sorry if offend anyone
soMeRandoM670 3 months ago
@soMeRandoM670
You didn't offend anyone.
I am always curious to see what it is that ultimately convinces different people, and how much they have learned about, and from, religious conversions.
Our interpretations of "spiritual" things is interesting to me because they seem to vary per person. That, and I have never had a true spiritual experience myself.
Pernic10us 3 months ago
wow, this guy has asked a valid question and so many people have jumped to the dislike button.
Danthious 4 months ago
Atheism is not a belief dumb***. It's understanding science in a way YOU don't want to understand it.
Flaw55 4 months ago
@Flaw55 never said it was dumb,and I do understand science, it is one of the pillars of my beliefs.
ProudPatriotPapa 4 months ago
@Flaw55 I dont understand why atheist get so so uptight. Science isnt a requirement for atheism, you dont need to believe in the big bang and evolution or any other scientific fact or theory to believe that there isnt a god. Please try not to be such an arrogant snob. You are making other atheist look bad.
beautifulxmelancholy 4 months ago