Samaritan marriage - 05 Oct 07

[psmx7]

Why would they need a ukrainian wife? Palestinian women are not good enough? Samaritans are just Palestinian jews, so they should marry a palestinian muslim or christian women, if they want to suvive.

[nesikhaNofret]

why ukraine...lol this is sad.

[ZviJ1]

Shalom,

No Arab empire created their existence, if that's what you call the eastrrn Semitic Assyrians... (The Arabs are considered southern Semites.)

[ZviJ1]

As a fiercely anti-antisemitic Jew I _adore_ this comment and hope many more people will vote it positive so that it ultimately gains positive rating.

[Firewall2153]

There is no ground for dialogue between us, but you keep spewing your filthy openion about Islam, which I am not interested to discuss with a children killer nazi parasite anyway.

You are not sincere about your own faith to the point where you are avoiding the swear of curse if you are wrong. Until you have enough faith in God, keep screaming & shouting like a (bit...).

[Firewall2153]

Again, you are trying to intellectualize about straight simple questions.

If you are sincerely faithful & truthful on your openion about Islam & Koran, then why are you so hesitant to swear the curse as I've already done.

I've invited you to swear at the name of the LORD of Heaven & Earth that the God worshipped by Muslims & the Koran are the wrong path.

You failed from the very begining & I am not surprised if you stumble at the next.

[Firewall2153]

Why didn't you to swear the curse on yourself & your family if you are wrong?

I was generous & faithful enough to begin with myself asking God to curse me & my family if you were true. Why don't you have the same faith if you sincerely believe in what you are uttering.

I am not here to listen to your bullshitting & neither am I interested in your openion of what Islam/Koran is or is not. We are not here to debate, anymore. Make the swear & let God ends the discussion in his OWN way.

[Firewall2153]

I am not a racist and I don't need an evidence nor do I need to look for evidence that you & your ancestors the descendants of pigs & baboons are the scum of this planet.

[Firewall2153]

Refute me then Mr. BULLSHIT.

I dare you to show us your DNA lineage.

[Firewall2153]

Stinky children killer Khazar ..

Even the real Israelites would look more like Palestinian than you Mr. Load of Crap.

[Firewall2153]

Samaritan are the only REAL Israelite left today. So, they are the brotherens of Mose's & his people & cousins to Arabs.

The rest of Israelites (descendants of Abraham through Jacob) are lost among Arabs & Persians.

They also relate to Jesus who most likely looked like one of them.

[Irtidad]

Samaritans are not really Jews, but more like pre-Jews, since they were the ones who stayed behind in the Land of Israel while the to-be Jews were taken into exile in Babylon.

[ZviJ1]

Sorry... even the Tanakh shows that some Judahites remained in Israel during the Babylonian captivity.

[Ldb29corn]

Amen.

[Ldb29corn]

these are the only true Jews I can think of

[sumpo80]

I think that they are jews.If ethiopian falassha people can be jews,the samaritans also!

[Greyshark09]

Samaritans are not jews, they are Israelite at most, but not Judeans for sure.

[Ldb29corn]

The term Jew comes from the word yehudi, which is like the work ehad, which means one, therefore, yehudi is probably a term for "individual".

[Greyshark09]

you don't even know what jew means.

go preach other nations, you know nothing of Judeans and Israelites apparently.

ekhad is totally different spelling in semitic than yehuda. funny man.

[Ldb29corn]

I am Israelite.

[Greyshark09]

go study Hebrew, you have lack of knowledge

Yehuda = Thankful to G-D

[Greyshark09]

Samaritans themselves claim they are not Judean, but Israelite tribes of Yosef's sons.

[ZviJ1]

As in a "British Israelite"?

[hagolan]

of course they are not jewish. they are israelites but not jews - being descendants of ephraym, not yehuda. but still we belong to the same people (israel) and worship the same g-d. so whe are brothers.

[Arabman666]

Poor Palestinian Jews. I wish they were a little more large scale.

[MetallicaSucksNow]

Samaritans vs Nazis?

[every1hatesitschrisc]

Samaritans didn't buy into that talmud non-sense. The Talmud is full of fables. that the Talmud contains a large assortment of pointless naïvetés, taboos, superstitions, demonic lore, myths," - The Book of Jewish Knowledge, by Nathan Ausubel.

[raanan111]

Hmmm, do you think there are other books on the planet that DISAGREE w/Nathan Ausubel? How would Nathan Ausubel KNOW if these "naivetes" are pointless? What's wrong w/publishing taboos??? Many superstitions have been found to have a basis that was initially unapparent to folks in the West. The Rambam seems to understand the demonry as a way of expressing unhealthy habits & how can to prove something is a myth?

[every1hatesitschrisc]

If it is truth, it is true.

[rafvrab]

Assuming the Talmud is wrong just because some secularist said so is not an educated opinion.

It is remarkable that the Shomronim, unlike the Karaites, do put on Tefillin, write Mezuza scrolls, and follow halachic rules for shechitah. If none of the Oral Torah was true, where would they have picked that from? The Shomronim/Kutim were fervently opposed to Rabbinic Judaism, they didn't copy all that from them.

I'd say the Shomronim if anything are living proof of the existence of the Oral Torah.

[Ehav4Ever]

Actually, the Shomronim don't put on Tefillin. They do put up Mezuzot, but not scrolls. They use plaques over their doors.

[ZviJ1]

You've been misled by some mendacious "info".

the Shomronim donot put on Tefillin nor write "Mezuza" scrolls.

The real querstion isn't whether the "oral" Torah is true, but how it's been conceived which didn't hapen in Tanakhic times but rather from late 2nd Temple till the Geonic rabbis.

You've got a scarce idea what you're saying.

[hahistorion]

@rafvrab

wha??????????

[raanan111]

@every1hatesitschrisc Well, a good way to test this is to see if they employ "eye for an eye" literally as Muslims do, but JEWS don't BECAUSE of the Talmud.

[kloratis]

0:54 - the priest says: "when she grows up - he marries her".

He says "grows up", but back then the Samaritans used to marry 14, 13, 12, even 11 year old girls. I personally know a Samaritan priest whos parents were married when his father was 39 and his mother was 14...

[raanan111]

Originally from Assyria,resettled in Samaria (Shomron), Israel by Sancheriv. Lions began to attack them, so they converted to Judaism. Later found to be worshiping an IDOL on Mt. Gerizim. Tried to prevent rebuilding of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, but Alexander of Macadonia, or one of his men, turned on them for this. Their Judaism was ruled invalid already 2000 yrs ago. R. Meir's disciple, Sumkhos, was originally one, but converted to Judaism properly.

[ZviJ1]

You've got a few factual holes in your narration.

1. The "found worshipping on Mt. Gerizim" is a Rabbinic canard.

2. Before the 2nd Temple era there was only proto-Judaism or Israelitism.

3. Alex of Macedonia didn't turn on them for the reason you cite.

[raanan111]

ZviJ1, why do you think the dove worship on Mt. Gerizim is a rabbinic canard? Before the 2nd Temple there were far less rabbinical decrees & ordinances, but it was still Judaism. Why do you think Alexander turned on the Samaritans? You sound like you are against the Talmudh, if so, why? r

[ZviJ1]

I'm not here to discuss my personal beliefs.

I will say that scholars in the relevant disciplines have thoroughly examined the Talmudic "Samaritan dove worship" allegation on what the Shomronim consider Mt. Gerizim (in reality an adjacent mountain) and have found it to be a baseless concoction.

But if you rather take the Talmud's word, knock yourself off.

[ZviJ1]

Oh...If you wish to call the Judahite version (vs. Northern Kingdom's) of Israelitism prior to the 2nd Temple Judaism, suit yourself. This isn't a point worth bickering over from my POV.

Before the 2nd Temple there were zero rabbinical decrees and ordinances. This is historical fact, just as the Rabbis were preceded by the Pharisees that wouldn't appear until 199 BCE at the earliest. If you can't come to terms with these givens of history, we've got nothing to discuss in that niche

[hahistorion]

@raanan111

i am against the talmud and for many reasons.

[hahistorion]

@raanan111

some tannaim held they were gerey emet.

most of them are not fom assyria but natives who never left the land.

[JosherForder]

I am trying to reseach Samaritan Hebrew, but there is too little information on it.

[shanoni79]

raanan what the hell are you talking about this are pure decendants of israel i think you really need to learn a little

of history from a friend shanoni79

[raanan111]

Okay, I'm open, please tell me what you know.

My source of information is the carefully-guarded Talmud, what's YOUR source of information?

[rafvrab]

They were mixed with the Assyrians, that is proven both in Talmudic tradition and in DNA research. But for 24 centuries the small community only married inside. Now, if Ashkenazim have problems like tay-sachs and gaucher because of the small genetic diversity, one can only imagine the case of the Shomronites/Kutim.

Interestingly, there is no mention of the Ukranian woman converting. Do they consider her to be Jewish? Is it suddenly OK for them to marry Gentiles?

[raanan111]

I thought that they were PURE Assyrians (at least originally). I heard that THEY are claiming that they married surrounding Jews in ancient times. Where did you see DNA studies on them? Don't know about their religious standards for marrying out.

[rafvrab]

There is some information in Wikipedia's "Samaritan" article. The 2004 DNA test was also reported in Israel's media (I only saw it in Hebrew).

Answering my own question: apparently they're only that meticulous about the patrilinear heritage, hence they're definitely not Jews al pi halacha.

[Ehav4Ever]

In fact the Samaritans don't like being called Jewish. They posit that they are from the Shevatim of Ephrayim and Levi and not Yehudah. Thus they prefer to be called Shamarim Yisraelim.They are meticulus about the matrilinial line, thus the reason they only recently allowed men to marry non-Samaritan women. The issue for them is that it is preferred that both sides are Samaritan. The female side, only recently could convert from Judaism to Samaritism.

[Ehav4Ever]

Even though they didn't mention it, the Ukranian women had to convert to the Samaritan Minhag. I once met with one of the heads of the Samaritans community in Holon. Samaritans for hundreds of years did not accept Geirim. It was only recently that they changed this ruling. The woman though has to be Jewish. So some of them married Russian Jewish women.

[ZviJ1]

1. As far as I know they didn't accept Geri for more than 2 millennia.

2. You're wrong that all the women thay take from outside their Community need to be Jewish. Menashe Tzedaqa wrote a few years ago in Hebrew in a written Q&A session with Israelis that he *hopes* all those "Russian" brides are Jewish, but "go figure".

[Ehav4Ever]

As I mentioned their Halakhah is that they can marry Jewish women who convert/change to the Samaritan tenents. Just because the women they have been bringing in may or may not be Jewish due to the Russian issue their halakhah is clear that the women, at the least, were SUPPOSED to be Jewish. This was a modified halakhah because for a long while they did not accept non-Samaritans. Even if the person was Jewish. This was a recent thing due to their numbers.

[ZviJ1]

But the "Russian issue" can't account for the Muslim women they've imported from Turkey....

So it'd appear like they're unoffcially ignoring their halakha for the time being.

[Ehav4Ever]

Either way, if they are ignoring their own halakhah it is still their halakhah. If they had to readjust it again it was probably because being a Samaritan woman is tough and the number of women who would join it would be a small number. Especially if the men they end up marrying are older..

[hahistorion]

@raanan111

carefully guarded talmud...lol

you mean the hodgepodge of legend, superstitions, confused traditions and no consensus on anything?

[ZviJ1]

"Pure" descendents? Nonsense. Shen's 2004 genetic study pokes a huge hole in your statement.

[KadosCohen]

why don't the Samaritans just marry other Jews if they have a shortage?? instead of a complete stranger...

[JosherForder]

Most do.

[raanan111]

Samaritans are not halakhically Jewish. Interesting that their COHEN married a Russian non-Jew.

[Elinitsam]

A Russian or Ukrainian? They are different.

[raanan111]

Sure, Russian & Ukrainians are different, but Aharon's descendants are not allowed to marry a first generation convert from ANY gentile nation. I wonder if Samaritans have the kohanic gene. Russian=gavaril Ukrain=havaril Yemenite=JABARIL

[abuzinnar]

Their cohanim marry Samaritans. Why shouldn't they marry Ukrainians? מאי נפקא מינה.

[raanan111]

Are their cohanim descendents from Aharon?

HaNafqa mina is that those Ukrainians they marry are for sure nokhriyoth, but...someone told me that the Samaritans are MIXED w/the surrounding Jews around 2000 yrs ago.

[abuzinnar]

You're right. But what's their din today?

[raanan111]

I saw a sefer that's oser qiddushin w/Benai-Chabash because MAYBE one of them is a real Benai 'Amenu & therefore there is a safeq mamzeruth because of their lack of gittin (despite their sefeq sefeqa status & giyur)& I would say Benai Shomeron are in a similar status, except they don't want a giyur, con'd

[ZviJ1]

Your racism against Jews of Ethiopian extraction is shocking and violates the Tanakh. Another reason why Orthodox Judaism, and better yet Rabbinical Judaism as a whole, should be disbanded.

[raanan111]

ZviJ1,

Benai-Chabash DID NOT GIVE GITTIN in Chabash, this is an INDISPUTABLE FACT! I am offering a solution lehatir nesu-in w/all others, how in the WORLD is that racist? I'm trying to find a consistency in your point of view, but I just don't understand where you are coming from, if you're willing, I'd like to understand you better. BTW, if seems there's been a more recent dna study showing Samaritans have OUR DNA!!! Can you verify?

[ZviJ1]

Indeed a Beta Yisra'el Get is unacceptable by Halakha, yet were strict in guarding against intermarrige. They didn't marry outside the Jewish community at all.

You'd have the same issue with Qaraite Jews though and in both cases I dissent.

I apologize for dubbing you racist; you were showing loyalty to Halakha and I misclassified your stand.

The 2004 Shen et al. study (and possibly subsequent ones) did find "our" DNA in the Shomronim. You can find & read this study on the internet.

[raanan111]

con'd

so mitzadh piquach nefesh, a better question is would chilul shabbath be in order & would say YES as a safeq de-oraitha lechumra metzadh shei, just like w/Benai Chabash BEFORE giyur may be Benai 'Amenu, so, too, it may be true w/the Benai Shomeron/Kuthim of TODAY (whose status maybe be MORE Benai 'Amenu today because of nesu-im w/surrounding Benai 'Amenu 2000 yrs ago & after the churban. kol tuv,r

[rafvrab]

In the times of the Gemarah the "gerei kutim" were questionable in their status, but their Matzah was acceptable as Kasher. Yet today's Shomronim are not. If a Jew brings a Shomronite woman to a beit din, they won't allow the wedding unless she undergoes a giur and abandons all Shomronite practices and beliefs (in all that concerns their differences with Rabbinic Judaism).

[ZviJ1]

Who misinformed you that the Shomronim had had been marrying with Jews 2000 years prior to 1924? This is ahistorical rubbish.

[ZviJ1]

Whether those "Ukranian" females aare nokhriyot or Gerot, they're Christian and aren't permitted for kohanim.

[Bm0h]

who on earth are the samaritians and how did it get so bad that there are so few of them....

[JosherForder]

The Samaritans descend from Joseph, son of Jacob who is Israel, son of Abraham.

[ZviJ1]

Shen's genetic study done in 2004 indicates that their females descend from gentile Assyrian and Babylonian women.

[palimony]

nice, mail ordering ukes

aka selling

[MustafaPresents]

Uh...would it be possible if I could get a copy of that catalog?

[junge1984]

lol. i just saw a video about ex-soviet mail order brides who marry and leave their husbands just to get a new life elsewhere. i can't imagine her staying around long!

[MustafaPresents]

A month is better than nothing.

[junge1984]

check out czech-brides(dot)com LOL. i can't believe they want to marry any foreign man and many of them are beautiful! so weird lol...

[polo1o1]

this man has no carrots

[foititis]

haha..That poor mail order bride

[msgg81]

its a poor fact but this is the only way