Post-Cast Lead

[saqib09]

War? What war? Israel is NOT fighting a war. Israel is the 4th most powerful military power in the world. Find me one expert, one organization that thinks that Hamas' military power is even remotely close to that of Israel's. Its not a war. Are you joking? Its extermination. You don't use white phosphorous if you are trying to avoid civilian causalities. Be Zionist all you want. Don't insult people's intellect.

[mickeysms]

War is always a mistake, but while fighting mistakes are made.

Israel has done the upmost to prevent this.

The difference between Israel and Palestine:

Israeli soldiers battel for their citizens, while the Hamas put the cevilians on the front to protect them self.

[perazh]

U call Phosphorous Bombs "non-lethal flash weapon that would be fired at the roof"?!!

WOW You are such a good example of a Nazionist

Havent U seen the pictures of burned to ashes bodies?

Even PIGsraels officials admited of using Phosphorous boms but they had excuse of "conducting their internal investigation"

BUT U Say they didnt use it what about other deadly weapons

what about 420 kids that were killed

are they just playing dead???

[mbrown0315]

No, perazh, I was not talking about phosphorous bombs.

[perazh]

HOHO

I love your disinformations

Would you explain how it is human to use white Phosphorous bombs on the high populated region

U are a nice source of Shit

[mbrown0315]

How it is humane? There's the problem. No one should ever expect a war to be humane. The issue is how to make the conflict humane AS POSSIBLE. White Phosphorous is an extremely effective tool for masking troop movement. International law stipulates that the agent is not to be used to harm civilians. That some Palestinians were harmed by white phosphorous doesn't necessarily mean that the IDF was using the weapon specifically to harm civilians. Indeed, the ICRC is still looking into the matter.

[iBegToDiffer]

"as humane AS POSSIBLE"

Are you honestly telling me, that the 4th largest military power in the world, fighting in one of the poorest, most densely populated areas of the world, could not find a HUMANE alternative to using white phosphorous? Really?

Its hard to imagine that the IDF with its 18.7 billion dollar budget isn't capable of purchasing safer, cleaner, non-incendiary smokescreens. Certainly, engaging in "humane" combat isn't the IDF's top priority.

[mbrown0315]

That's precisely what I'm telling you. If THE largest military power in the world cannot find an alternative in Fallujah, it stands to reason that the 4th cannot either.

If the IDF were completely disinterested in making urban, guerilla warfare (which is inherently inhumane) as humane as possible, then I imagine "roof knocking" would have never been implemented.

[iBegToDiffer]

Let's not even start with the Americans, they really don't have the best track record for humane military combat (the horrors of depleted uranium in Afghanistan is just one example among many.)

And "cannot find an alternative" simpy isn't an argument.There are non-lethal alternatives available for smokescreen, such as smoke shells that are even produced by an local Israeli company!!

[mbrown0315]

This is typical of people debating this matter. Do you come from a military background? Because you seem so confident that a perfectly viable alternative to white phosphorous is readily available, and that the IDF insists on using white phosphorous even while there is a cheaper, less controversial, and equally effective alternative. Why? Because they're sadistic, of course. Never mind that they invested in roof knocking, field hospitals, daily ceasefires, etc.

[iBegToDiffer]

No I don't have a military background, nor am educated in politics for that matter, but it doesn't take a lot to know what constitutes as a moral, ethical and human rights violation.

If I'm not mistaken, "roof knocking" is another of the IDF's many scare tactics. Hundreds of roofs of been knocked, but few have been subsequently bombed. Why? Because pyschological warfare is effective and cheap.

Don't limit attacks to just the physical, why not violate someones pysche too?

[mbrown0315]

Are you talking about roof knocking or phone calls? It's true that not all houses called were subsequently bombed, but I've never heard that the IDF spent valuable ordinance with a specific purpose just to scare people. Source please?

Even if it's true, until you talk with the people who deal with these situations (and I have) you do well to admit that you're arguing from ignorance.

[mbrown0315]

Clearly, the IDF expends military and human and monetary resources blockading Gaza because they get a kick out of it. The fact that the blockade coincided with the aggressive rise to power of Hamas has nothing to do with it... It's just plain old evil sadism.

[iBegToDiffer]

I'm glad your comment isn't reaking with sarcasm, and that you agree the IDF is sadistic.

[mbrown0315]

I'm glad that you're crafty enough to counter sarcasm with sarcasm.

[mbrown0315]

And since you're so confident that smoke shells are such a fine alternative, perhaps you could elucidate the efficacy of smoke shells to mask thermal signature? Are they also superior to red phosphorous? What's the dissipation rate? What about the possibility of confusing signaling mechanisms with masking mechanisms? And is this further complicated by smoke naturally occurring from fires started by combat, burning tires, etc?

Again...it's complicated.

[mbrown0315]

Furthermore, we need to really consider what "humane AS POSSIBLE" means.

Here's an example.

In 2002, the IDF implemented a policy of sending soldiers house-to-house to flush out militants that were operating among civilians and booby trapping the houses. That's much more humane than the common practice of just leveling hostile territory with an air raid (see Dresden, Chechnya, Serbia, etc). However, many Israeli soldiers died in the process.

[iBegToDiffer]

Thats great. And Israel should have kept up such ethical policies in all is areas of conduct.

But the fact is I can give you countless other examples of the IDF's belligerence. Indiscriminately killing innocents, using unethical and illegal warfare tactics and generally showing disregard for Palestinian and even Israeli lives.

[mbrown0315]

I absolutely agree that the IDF should always make an effort to operate as ethically AS POSSIBLE. I recognize that there has been misconduct and that it should be addressed. However, I can't stand people who think it's always a simple choice between being good and being evil.

[iBegToDiffer]

The choice certainly doesn't have to be complicated. Then again it depends on where you get your moral grounding in the first place, and since our influences and sources vary, I suppose it IS complicated.

[mbrown0315]

Sigh...

This is getting cyclical.

[iBegToDiffer]

Yes, this is rather cyclic.

Neither one of us is convincing the other of anything, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the tone of this debate isn't particularly cordial. I'm not saying its hostile, but its not friendly either. Or productive.

And then of course theres the bias...

[ListenLiberal]

iBeg, I don't think it makes sense to challenge barbarians on their tactics. Instead, challenge them on their whole politico-ideological project. When we examine the history of violence, MBrown sees the imperative of Jewish survival as the thesis and Arab push-back as the antithesis. I, on the other hand, see the foundational problem being a Zionist project that was corrupted by chauvinism and racial nationalism

[ListenLiberal]

Not that our host is a barbarian

[mbrown0315]

Negative again.

I don't think Hamas currently poses a threat to Jewish survival (though I will admit that I would be uncomfortable if Hamas invited its benefactor the Iranian Revolutionary Guard into the West Bank).

[mbrown0315]

That Hamas declares in its charter and television shows a desire to annihilate the Jews does not mean that I'm concerned about them actually doing it. However, it evidences a disposition that I do not find conducive to Israeli well-being. A campaign of suicide bombings does not mean the annihilation of the Jewish people, but I still don't care for it and understand the Israeli rationale for trying to prevent it.

[iBegToDiffer]

Hmm. I don't know.

Last I check suicide bombing was a last resort tactic used by the extremely desperate, as a retaliation to Israeli attacks and theats. A retialiation- as in there was previous provocation. Not that it justifies the deed.

[mbrown0315]

Suicide bombing is indeed a tactic of the poor and ill-equipped, as is attacking with a regular army is a tactic of the relatively rich and properly equipped. Remember, there were wars fought against Israel prior to 1967. There were fedayeen raids while Arabs controlled the West Bank and Gaza, evidencing that it's not just the West Bank and Gaza that's the goal of the armed struggle.

[mbrown0315]

Now, Fatah seems to have made it clear that the old armed struggle for all of historic Palestine is over. A state comprising the West Bank and Gaza is the goal. Hamas is different. Hamas adheres to the old platform, so the fact that they implement a tactic of the ill-equipped is irrelevant. Israel simply cannot negotiate with an entity that calls for Israel's destruction.

[iBegToDiffer]

Decimating Palestinian lives and homes in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, expanding settlements illegally on occupied territory, crippling, subjugating, and dehumanizing a population...

I'm pretty sure Palestinians wouldn't want to negotiate with a country that is seeking out its destruction out as well.

The only difference is, Hamas is not, and is no where near being capable of destoying Israel. Israel on the other hand has the power obliterate Palestine.

[iBegToDiffer]

Depends on your definition of barbarian.

In ancient times it simply meant a non-Greek. In that case most of us are barbarians. Yippee.

[iBegToDiffer]

Certainly  it is one of THE root causes from which this conflict, aswell past and future P/I conflicts are stemming from. Until it is addressed the other issues will not cease, but will only increase in frequency and intensity.

[mbrown0315]

People just don't understand the validity in drawing comparisons to other scenarios of urban, guerilla warfare and recognizing that it's not as innocuous as picking flowers. People refuse to recognize the significance of the fact that Hamas operates among civilians, which often forces the IDF's hand.

[mbrown0315]

The IDF decided that this was unreasonable for sustaining the willingness of IDF soldiers to fight. Rather than resort to the tried and true method of carpet bombing, it identified houses that were being used as sniper posts and bomb-making factories, warned all residents to evacuate, and then demolished the houses with armored bulldozers.

You'll say "that's inhumane" without taking into account the common practice (air campaigns) and what was tried previously (house-to-house searches).

[mbrown0315]

If there were an innocuous alternative to white phosphorous, I'd be the first to advocate for it; however, unlike most people on YouTube, I hold Hamas at least partly responsible for civilian deaths and injuries, as they have chosen to operate among civilians.

Again, I hope that IDF research and development can find an alternative to white phosphorous (as they managed to do when they devised "roof knocking"), but until then....I understand the tragic circumstances of urban, guerilla warfare.

[mbrown0315]

Just for your information, here's what roof knocking is.

The IDF had had the experience that when they called a household telling them to evacuate, Palestinian civilians would be ordered to gather on the roof of the house to prevent it from being bombed. In response, the IDF devised a non-lethal flash weapon that would be fired at the roof. It would not explode or hurt anyone, but it would scare everyone off the roof.

This, of course, was condemned as psychological warfare.

Figures.

[ListenLiberal]

"What are you supposed to do?" You're supposed to remove your boot from the neck of the subjugated helot. Even as he squirms to reach up from ground and stab you. Expect resistance. Certainly, you have no right to complain about the stabbings so long as your heel is pressed to his neck. As for Falk's soft pacifist formulations, they seem quite sound to me. I imagine a domestic Hamas based out of an US ghetto and wonder how the authorities would treat the local citizenry. That is the standard.

[mbrown0315]

This attitude reflects the idea that it is Israel that holds all of the cards and that Hamas actually poses no threat and, moreover, that it will not pose a greater threat if allowed to blossom into a legitimate representative of a sovereign Palestinian nation. The end goal is that the boot is removed, yes, but it's not done according to your thinking, which is counter-productive for both Israelis and Palestinians.

[mbrown0315]

Also, I hope you realize that "What are you supposed to do?" does not refer to "Should Israel attack or not?"

It refers to how Israel should conduct itself in an attack against an enemy that is so diligent about operating among civilians. This question applies not only to Israel, but also to any country engaged in urban, guerilla warfare.

Falk's answer is not "your war is being fought for an unjust cause, so cut it out." Instead, it's "Sucks for you. Hamas played the unbeatable civilian card."

[ListenLiberal]

Yes. And Falk is obviously correct: if your military objectives cannot be accomplished without endangering civilians, your war is probably immoral. You cannot unburden yourself of your crimes by blaming the inevitable consequence of your actions on enemy partisans hidden among the innocents. Also, you seem attached to the absurd fiction that Cast Lead was a rational response to rocket fire (coincidentally staged before elections) and not a futile campaign gimmick by the bloodless Israeli center

[ListenLiberal]

I understand that my approach to war and violence puts me well outside the parameters of serious policy debate. The difference is that whereas Washington think tanks and military affairs journals are mostly staffed by savages and necrophiliac corpse-fuckers, I am a civilized person.

[mbrown0315]

Negative. I'm of the opinion that the war on Nazism was a valid and just war. I don't blame Hamas for operating among civilians. I understand the tactic. It clearly works. But yes, I assign a causal relationship between that tactic and a significant portion of Palestinian civilian casualties.

[ListenLiberal]

I think it's true that destroyig the Nazi regime was, in principle, worth a terrible price. It's also true that the war itself, as it was really fought, jostled the genocidal machinery of Hitler's Europe into full operation, while trapping the victim populations behind closed borders and abandoning them to their grim fate. It's also true that the Allies themselves were guilty of gratuitous, terroristic and even genocidal violence. The sacralization of WWII is the mother of many errors.

[mbrown0315]

I don't want to start a debate about worthy vs. unworthy cases of American intervention. We got enough to talk about here without getting into Hitler and Milosevic. I agree with you that sacralization of WWII is wrong, but dismissing it as irresponsible is also wrong. My point is that the age of "clean" war died with parallel lines of musket-wielding regulars. And, of course, those wars weren't "nice" either.

[mbrown0315]

That's right. War is an artifact of antiquity. We in this rich, overly leisured, thoroughly distracted, and completely unsustainable society are beyond such nastiness.

We'll have to wait and see.

[ListenLiberal]

Well, I like the snark. But it is precisely our isolated comfort and escapist lifestyle that allows us to murder literally millions of Indochinese people without any significant reflection or afterthought. Instead we remember that episode in our history as vignette in Forrest Gump or the beginning of a so-called culture war between squares and hippies.

[mbrown0315]

So then you agree with me?

Anyway, my point is more that you're a civilized person because you have no reason to be uncivilized. What provocation do you experience on a daily basis? How much do you struggle to obtain resources? I have a feeling that you are civilized, but you need to put yourself to the test to know for sure.

[mbrown0315]

Quick story to illustrate:

I was walking with a friend once in Jerusalem through an Arab neighborhood while wearing a kippah (why I was in an Arab neighborhood wearing a kippah is a whole other story). My friend was a pacifist bordering on a hippie, or at least that's how he had always described himself until we had baseball-sized rocks thrown at us by Arabs on the other side of the street. Suddenly it was the pragmatic centrist urging the pacifist to drop the rocks and just walk away.

[mbrown0315]

There might be some truth to the assertion about elections.

As for it being a rational response...keep in mind that it was preceded by much smaller responses. As far as I can see, rocket fire has gone down drastically, there's a relaunching of prisoner exchange talks, and there are talks in place about international observers to monitor crossings.

As for the Hamas approval rating, I've seen conflicting reports, but it seems Gaza is getting fed up with Hamas.

[ListenLiberal]

My understanding is that the rocket fire dramatically intensified during Cast Lead and even killed a few people, something that hadn't happened for months-to-years before the assault. Israel could've commenced prisoner talks on its own terms at any moment before or after this war.

[mbrown0315]

Of course it intensified when an actual military confrontation was underway, but the point is the end result. The alternative was allowing the rockets to continue at their pace, sapping the southern economy and ruining people's lives (I have a cousin who teaches at a college in Sderot, so I know that it doesn't take death to ruin life). Though, of course, allowing the rockets to continue at that pace would eventually mean more deaths, even in spite of early warning systems and shelters.

[mbrown0315]

At the conclusion of Cast Lead, Hamas was deterred enough to insist that lone groups of rocketeers cease their firing immediately, belatedly following suit with the many in Arab and Muslim countries (including your friend ModernPharaoh) who were and are tacitly acknowledging that Hamas was behaving irresponsibly and recklessly.

[mbrown0315]

That is, unless they were prevented from acknowledging it, as was the case in Iran. As for negotiations, it's foolish to downplay the fact that pre-Cast Lead Hamas was unwilling to allow international observers in, while post-Cast Lead they were amenable. They're even willing to let Fatah patrol some of the crossings. Now if they could only kiss and make up...