I'm a white Christian conservative. And rev. Wright is CORECT about the HORRIBLE THINGS this country has done. It's NOT CHRISTIAN to endorse slavery, fund and engage in the genocide over the indians, Use black enlisted men in the US Army as guinea pigs, use capitalism to opress, Intern thousands of Japanese in WWII, promote child labor, Smash unions. ban integration. allow abortion THESE ARE HORRIBLE PARTS OF THE US HISTORY. Does God bless these??? LIberty??? Abortion takes that away in the womb
thats not true. that only happened in the old testement if you would leave your faith you would get stoned to death thats why god sent jesus to die on the cross and pay for our sins
The problem with a religion like christianity is that most of the 'holy' scriptures are contradictory. Bush chose to interpret the part of the bible which tells us that the christian god wanted his followers to destroy 'unbelievers'.
Then you get people like Obama who chose to interpret different parts of the bible, like to treat others as you would treat yourself. How can any religion function properly if there is this much variation in it?
The non-abrahamic religions function so much better. It is such a shame that they have not become the most powerful religions in the most powerful nations. Had that happened, the world would be a much better place (this is my opinion as an atheist).
For example, there is a phrase in the hindu scriptures that says of god
'He knows... Or, he may not know'
they have the guts, and their religion is open enough to admit its flaws.
Every Sunday? Jesus said those who do not abide in my father's will shall not enter into the Kigdom of Heaven. I don't believe Abortion is something the Lord would stand for nor say it's ok. the Killing of the innocence is an Abomination? but didnt wright killing of innocent but they stand for abortion :S they worry about the war but then kill babies? come on man Liberal's get free'd from satan accept Christ
It really bothers me when Christians think tearing someone down and acting defensive is the best way to promote the Author of Love! I'm studying to be a youth pastor and I'm proud to have voted Obama and greatly regret voting for Bush the first time. What Bush and Rove did (convince Christians they have to vote Republican) was legitimately evil!
As a Christian, I thank God for a candidate and President like Obama after 8 years of Bush, the most anti-Christ president in history. Bush was also the worst president in our history.
And also, yes, the universe is finite, but the "end of everything" will come only when ALL energy has taken its most diluted form - heat. (Science is my religion.)
Why do you people think your better then everyone? We are all the same, we are all from the energy. It doesnt matter what you are black,white, wiccan, christian, gay, or str8. we are all cut from the same cloth. I dont think everything the preacher is saying is right....but i feel good knowing Barack Obama is an open minded president and i hope to know one day i will be free to do what i will.
Amen im glad to see others spreading the truth because we live in the last days and God is coming for his people it's time to wake up!!! God Bless you!!!!
Vote for Jesus Christ, running for president! He wants to take money from the rich and help the poor. He wants healthcare for all! He wants to end the Iraq war! He wants to help save his beautiful planet from global warming.
Hm. Jesus sounds pretty liberal to me! Unless, of course, you're too narrow-minded and only focus on one issue (ie: abortion). That would make you a conservative (read: moron).
I can't wait until you're in The White House PRESIDENT Obama!
who sais God wants to do any of these things? I don't believe that a single one of them is true really. he wishes to bless his ppl with eternal riches in heaven. he wishes to save our souls from eternal death and give us life through salvation by his son jesus christ. idk and i dont clain to know his exact position on the war in iraq, but i can tell you that the 911 attacks as well as hurracane catrina were thigs that he allowed to happen because we have become an evil nation.
Now who told you that he ALLOWED those things to happen? God does not ALLOW things to happen, or MAKE them happen if they are bad things. God is there to help you in any way possible, not to ever punish.
**continued** also he gave us this planet, and i know that it does not matter what i do (i will still do everything to preserve the beauty of earth because it all gives glory to Him in its beauty)because he already has everything planned out, and this world is finite, that is to say it has an end, and we can do nothing that will destroy it before he sais so. i am narrow minded, cause i know the truth. so, i don't need to have an open mind. I attempt to love all ppl, and hate sin. just like Jesus
"i dont clain to know his exact position on the war in iraq"
Really? You really can't tell if God would be pro- or anti- war? Interesting, for a loving and peaceful God.
"but i can tell you that the 911 attacks as well as hurracane catrina were thigs that he allowed to happen because we have become an evil nation."
You've got to be kidding me. I never say this, because I don't believe such a place exists, but go to hell. You are sickly narrowminded and disgusting in your belief.
Now what exactly do you define as "sin?" If you mean hurting other people and doing just plain bad things, then I agree with you, I hate sin as well. But if you mean like masturbation and other things like that, not that's just silly.
Excuse me for a minute while I finish laughing. Seriously, you are aware that there are BILLIONS of religions out there? The chance of YOU being right is one in infinity!
Cougs, I couldn't agree with you more. Obama's stands on the issues are very close to those of Jesus of the Gospels. On the other hand, the actions of Bush are pretty much the opposite of the Jesus of the Gospels.
Christianity is a hoax. Christianity is Roman war propaganda against the Jews and nonwhites. New testament was written by Romans to demean and destroy Judaism. Titus Flavius who destroyed the Jewish Temple commissioned the Christian hoax as a replacement for Judaism. Titus' Flavius military campaign against Jerusalem was transformed into Jesus' ministry against Judaism
your right but people only see what they wanna see but IMO in 3-4 generation christianity will be just a cult because people are starting to see that all this crap with religion is not only a waste of time and just wasted the society, the things were a lot better a few thousand years ago, people cared about each other for their own survival, now no one cares bout the others (only the ones that that affect them, though they wanna seem that way) because the others are needed only for the economy
Spare me all the religious doubletalk on both sides. they do that to jerk off the mental midgets, just like Bush and Palin did. Wright is a pig, that is why I hate theocons period. Blacks are basically morons, the A bombs dropped on Japan ended the war, a war where the Japs murdered millions in Asia for no reason.
The right wing pig who posted this nauseasting trash must think A bombs are okay but abortion is bad.
theres a muslim in the white house???? what the fuck is wrong you democrats just because he's black he has to be in the white house? wait for a good black man to run this guy is going to kill us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gay marriage & civil unions are constitutional. The rights of homosexual couples are protected because of our constitution. The bible plays no role in government because not everyone is a christian. If you think Jesus is against gay marriage, then don't marry a gay person. :)
Can you show me any verses in the bible where Jesus himself criticizes gays? I dont know about you, but I thought that above all, Jesus promoted love and tolerance. Never did he promote heterosexuality.
Actually the Dead Seas Scrolls (which are only the Hewbrew Bible "Old Testament') show that the Bible has barely changed at all since then and now.
Stop trying to rewrite history like an idiot.
There is only ONE Version of the Bible (two if you count the differences of the Septuaigint and the Masoretic Old Testaments which are simply that the former has more books canonized) and many interpretations such as King James versus New International Version or the Bible in German or French etc.
Fortunately Obama got elected, because things are going to get really fun now that the brainwashed conservative evangelical movement is getting exposed. By the end of this term it will be realized that
1. The Bible is a bunch of ancient opinions that should be approached as a big piece of inspirational literature.
2. Any real insights that are in The Bible are shared with many other world religions, namely the Golden Rule and The Dying God Archetype.
3.The major religious institutions perpetuate inter-faith conflict.
4.Allowing religious bias to trump the rational integration of ideas toward a useful median is the greatest weakness of humanity.
When we clear this hurdle, humanity will be more honest. Instead of saying "I don't like Obama cuz hes Moslem.", that famous lady can admit "I don't like him because he's Black and I think all blacks are Moslem and scary." That way all can clearly see how sick she is and the healing can begin.
We choose what religion we think is right,cant you see how much we want to seek the truth,if it happen that we choose the wrong one cant you see that is fated?Good people who seek the truth will find the right path guide by Him.Pray for His light,He will show you the truth.Stop fighting who is rite or wrong!Please help ourself may God help us find way out of the darkness.Stop pick pointing religion shortcomings,let us unite and believe the is God who create us.
Are you an imbecile? The Bible hasn't changed since it was written 2,000 years ago. And it says there will be NO MORE GOSPELS after it...that includes Mohammad the FALSE Prophet.
The Bible has not changed constantly, froggy, the copies that are extant agree with one another in amazing detail. It is, in fact, the best documented work of antiquity.
I don't know if you refer to english versions or if you refer to New Testament manuscripts.
1. with regard to english versions: the differences are mostly about updating english usage to make it contemporary with current use of the language with minor other differences.
2.With regard to manuscripts: almost all differences are additional phrases, the gender of names, definite articles, conjunctions, really small stuff that does not change the meaning.
You clearly need a history lesson. There are many varying versions of the bible. The dead sea scrolls show us that the bible has changed over the years.
pardon me, but that is precisely what the dead sea scrolls did NOT show. What they showed was that the Old Testament books, particularly Isaiah, is amazingly close to other Hebrew and english translations we already have.
"Amazingly close"? If the bible as we have it is the pure, inerrant word of God, then it should be the exact same as it was originally. Fun fact: Did u know that modern bibles contain extra information in I John 5:7? The phrase "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost" is NOT in the oldest found manuscripts. Ofcourse that is just ONE example.
proghog, I've got a fun fact for you. You are wrong about I John 5:7. It is virtually only the King James version that contains the errant text in that verse. No other modern translation makes that mistake that came from Erasmus' translation.
Another fun fact, there are more than 5,000 manuscripts that were hand copied throughout the centuries and the differences between them are miniscule. No other book from antiquity is that highly documented.
When I said modern, I was referring to the most popular modern bible (KJV. You do now admit that the KJV is NOT the pure, inerrant word of God. You must also realize that for centuries, Americans had only the flawed version on of I John 5:7 and MANY of them still believe this verse is a part of the inerrant word of God. Furthermore, your idea of "miniscule" is subjective. Some people feel that every single line of the bible is straight from God and that ANY variations makes it errant.
Let's revert to reality. I NEVER said the KJV is pure. I never said ANY translation is pure. No translation of anything is going to be copied without error for hundreds of years.
In fact, of all the modern translations, the KJV is the LEAST accurate.
People who believe God wrote the perfect, word for word Bible are clueless.
While the Bible is inspired by God, there are some glosses and redactions. Look at John 7:53-8:11. That story, while probably accurate, was never in the origional.
Ah you're speaking of the "Pericope Adulterae". Yes, I have done my research on that passage. The problem with the bible being "impure" is that there is NO clear consensus about what parts to take as the pure, inerrant, word of God and what parts to dismiss as human creation. And for many years, before scholars began to critique the bible diligently, passages such as the Pericope Adulterae were accepted as truth. In fact, many Christian denominations still believe in such passages.
You are in error. There is very clear consensus on what parts of the Bible are clearly from the origional manuscripts. The Aland greek New Testament is widely accepted. Aside from the references to John 8 and I John 5, there are only 1 or 2 other passges in question. What's left are literally very minor variations to words, phrases.
Actually, I do believe the John 8 text is legit even though John probably never included it. The story probably actually happened.
"The Aland Greek New Testament" is not widely accepted because many people haven't even done the research to find out that it exists. There are many denominations who still believe the KJV is the only version that can be trused and others who believe that it is the the best version. And your opinion that John 8 is legit does not make it legit. Many different people can have various opinions about what parts of the bible are correct. Just b/c it sounds right to u, doesn't make it true.
wrong again. The Aland N.T. is widely accepted. Christian Scholarship is pretty universal about that. There are some independent churches that don't even know what scholarship is. We just have to let them be where they are. Of course my opinion about John 8 is not final for anyone but me.
Bottom line: The Scriptures as we have them are the best documented work of antiquity. And that is saying something.
The term "widely accepted" is subjective. Can you tell me how many denominations use the Aland N.T. when they quote scripture. From my observations, most quote the from versions such as the KJV or NIV. & Even if the bible is the "best documented work of antiquity" (which is also subjective), that doesn't mean that it is The Truth or that it should be the standard by which we base our law system. Many scholars believe that even many parts of the N.T. are merely pseudepigrapha.
Virtually all theologians use modern translations such as NRSV. Many also use a modern paraphrase, THE MESSAGE. That paraphrase was completed by an outstanding scholar. You are wrong about at least 2 things:
1. The Bible is the best documented work of antiquity - is not subjective. There simply is no comparison.
2. Most scholars do not believe many parts of the N.T. are pseudepigrapha. You can always find a "scholar" out there in left field, but scholarship is pretty much of one mind.
What do you mean by "best documented"? That is a subjective phrase because I don't know what STANDARDS you are using. "Best" in what way? Even if it is, that DOESN'T make it true. CORRECT? Also, MANY (I never said "most" b/c I don't have specific numbers)scholars do believe that many parts of the NT are pseudepigrapha. You never did tell me about how many common Christians actually reference the Aland N.T. Maybe textual critics use it but how many copies of it is sold in comparison to the KJV?
Good grief, the Aland Greek New Testament is written in --- kione Greek. How many can read that??? By best documented - the fact that there are more than 5,000 N.T. manuscripts that are in virtual agreement with each other virtually assures the reader that the text we have is from the origional writer. There is no ancient manuscript that even comes close to this much corroborative evidence.
So, the version of the bible that is most authentic is not even available for most of mankind to read? What a divine way to spread the true word of God! "Virtually all in agreement" is very subjective. I have read that the "major" Greek texts are in complete agreement for about 63% of the time. Again, how does this make the bible true? Also, human beings have the capability of producing vast copies of fictional works, DON'T THEY? Many copies of a book doesn't disqualify it from being false!
You just aren't getting it. The Aland Text is used in translating into the modern languages. So the NIV, NRSV, NASB, RSV, NEB, for example, all have the advantage of using the best manuscripts in their translation. The only thing that makes these english translations different from one another is audience they are reaching. NASB - exact word for word (but less easily readible), NRSV - easy to understand (not quite as exact) etc.
All of them authentically use the origional language.
I know for a fact that the NIV contains the Pericope Adulterae which you earlier said is most likely NOT an original part of John. Therefore, there are some variations between modern translations and the "original" text. (which we ofcourse don't have) EITHER WAY, you still have not explained how various copies of an ancient book prove that the book is nonfiction. There are many ancient copies of the Koran which are in agreement with each other. Does that make Islam true?
The NIV includes John 8:1-11 but with a note that says the best manuscripts do not contain these verses.
I never claimed that all the evidence I have produced, proves that the N.T., itself is telling the truth. That is a faith issue.
As for the Quran, just examining the life of the prophet Muhammad and comparing it with Jesus of Nazareth, I'll follow Jesus every time. Compare the two ways of life and make your own judgment.
You don't know what all Jesus of Nazareth did, do u? His whole life is not included in the bible, is it? Secondly, even if Jesus were a perfect role model (according to the bible), you have not given me sufficient reason to believe that the bible is true in the FIRST PLACE!
Also, I might not believe that a God who mandates bloody, gruesome human/animal sacrifices is a perfect and moral God. I might not agree with a god who commands men to stone children to death!
1. I don't know everything Jesus of Nazareth did. No one does. I said believing the Bible is true is a faith issue. You need to develop your spirituality.
2. As for the events of the Old Testament, you need a history lesson. Your reference to stoning children to death requires that you know much more about a culture that survived about 3,200 years ago. Before you criticize, read some good scholarly commentaries. Talk to a Rabbi. You will learn something.
1. I don't believe that "developed spirituality" means that you believe that a particular ancient book is the true word of God simply b/c people say that it is. That sounds more like social conformity to me.
2. Tell me, SPECIFICALLY, what is wrong with the fact that I don't believe that a moral god should have people in a particular culture to stone their bad children to death? What is wrong with the fact that I don't believe that bloody/gruesome sacrifices should be necessary for forgiveness?
1. You are deflecting the real issue. If you don't take a serious look at connecting spiritually, you need to face the liklihood that you are missing something important.
2.You apparently know nothing about Israel culture 3,200 yrs. ago. The animal sacrifices replaced the usual religious practice of child sacrifice, for example. You will need to provide me with the text for the "capital punishment of children" statement. I don't have it.
1. I do take a serious look at spirituality. I simply disagree with YOUR OPINION about what true spirituality means.
2. Deut 21:18-21 (stone children to death). I also don't like the part that requires that a raped women MUST MARRY HER RAPIST (Deut 22:28). Ofcourse, all of us don't have the same types of morals and values. These are simply mine.
You still have not bothered to understand a culture of s fledgling tribe in the midst of a hostile environment, seeking survival.
No parent was required to stone a child. This referes to an older son (a drunkard) and only if the parents were so consumed by misbehavior that they took him to the elders of the city.
As for a woman required to marry her rapist. This is untrue. The Father was allowed to refuse this marriage. This law also appears in more complete form in Exodus 22:16.
The fledging tribe was so desparate in their quest for survival that they had to stone disobedient children to death? And if they were so busy seeking survival, then how did they have time to build altars and sacrifice animals to their blood thirsty god? And you have twisted the passage. It does not say that it HAS to be an "older son" and it does not say that he HAS to be a "drunkard." Also, yes, the woman IS required to marry her rapist UNLESS her father refuses. Her father may not refuse.
You are wrong about all of your responses. Re-read my post. I told it to you straight. Too bad you don't have any retort. Torah, whether you like it or not, is the most compassionate law code of the ancient world. Deal with it.
Of course our Constitution is more compassionate than Torah. Israel doesn't live by that code anymore either. In virtually every instance the laws were less severe than what was traditionally practiced in every nation around Israel. Again, deal with it.
"You are wrong, you are in error...blah, blah, blah..." That's all you can say. I don't tell you that you're wrong, but I give you hard cold FACTS. All you do is make baseless, subjective claims. Is it not true that vaginal bleeding required that women slaughter two birds? Is is not true that disobedient children, drunkards, etc. were stoned to death? My claims come STRAIGHT FROM THE BIBLE. I have even included the specific verses.
As long as you are insisting on reading laws made for a culture 3,200 years ago, and remain unwilling to see how that culture differs from the 21st Century you will be stuck in ignorance. I already explained how animal sacrifice was introduced to eliminate child sacrifice. The laws for punishment of criminal behavior were far more just than surrounding nations.
What you have given is total distortion of the intention of the writer of the text.
Maybe I believe that a perfect and moral God does not have to require child OR animal sacrifice. You act as if slaughtering live creatures has to be a necessary part of life. And you are the one who keeps talking about how advanced and compassionate their law code was. I think its barbaric. Also, I think that a perfect God could have given them much more decent laws. God should be outside of time and culture. God shouldn't have to be limited b/c it was 3200 years ago!
you need a little trip to reality. What was it I said about animal sacrifice: IT REPLACED THE COMMON PRACTICE OF CHILD SACRIFICE. Torah is commonly recognized as one of the most compassionate law codes of the ancient world.
Of course it seems barbaric - have you forgotten you are looking at it from the 21st Century????
God is outside of time and culture
Its US, PEOPLE, who are IN time and stuck in our culture.
Stop playing games. The Torah was a great step forward from what most any culture had experienced to that date. You have apparently ever bothered to do the slightest research in ancient history. Otherwise you wouldn't be without the slightest clue.
As I said, you have apparently never read word one in ancient history. Saying why didn't they have hummers in Moses' day makes as much sense as your last comment.
You say that the Torah was one of the best law codes of its time. (Does this imply that I should worship the god attributed to that law code?) I say that the Egyptian pyramids are some of the most brilliant monuments of the anceient world. (Does this mean we should worship the Egyptian gods to which the pyramids were dedicated?)
I really think you should investigate those egyptian gods. If you read legitimate works of ancient history you will discover gods that make your skin crawl. And you thought Torah was barbaric.
My point is not that I should worship Egyptian gods per se. My point is that great societal accomplishments (pyramids, law codes, etc.) does not mean that I should worship the god of the society responsible for those great accomplishments. Furthermore, I don't think that the Torah is all that great anyway. Ofcourse that's all subjective.
Of course you don't think Torah is that great, and with all the advanced reading you have done on the subject I can see how you came to that conclusion.
BTW, the pyramids were all build with slave labor in the harshest conditions, another reason to love those egyptian gods.
Once again, I am not advocating that we worship Egyptian gods. Re-read my post so that you can understand the point I was making. Secondly, why don't you justify the Eyptians's actions in the same way that you justify the Israelites. Remember, you can't judge ancient cultures by our modern standards.(YOUR WORDS)
I do compare egyptian gods and actions by the same standars I use when looking at Torah. Egypt had nothing comparable to the detailed and compassionate law code that Torah was.
You criticize the Egyptians, using modern standards of morality. However, you do not criticze the Torah using modern standards of morality. That is my point.
Compare what? Do you have some list that shows all of the ancient Egyptian laws side by side with all of the laws of the Torah? Have you developed some methodology to compare the two cultures? Have you developed methodology to compare the standards of those cultures to modern standards? Where are your results and how do you interpret them?
As far as my questions are concerned, I take that as a "no". Also, I do not have time to do extensive research about those ancient cultures. I have many other things to do. Once again, my point was not to suggest that we should acknowledge Egyptian gods.
I'm just tired of this back and forth. There are some legit ways to compare Torah with other cultures. I don't have a chart of ancient religions and cultures if that's what you mean. I have taken a course or two in ancient history and I'm not making up my conclusions.
You might be interested to know that Torah is known as one of the most advanced and compassionate law codes in history. For example I know of no other ancient law code that provided for welfare for the poor. Torah did. In fact there was a law that said, "there shall be no poor among you."
If you want to pick at Torah please make an effort to understand the culture in which it was written. So far you have made no attempt to do that.
I am not trying to write a detailed essay about the lives of ancient Jews. I simply stated a few examples from the Torah. I believe that the U.S. Constitution is much more compassionate than the Torah. We don't stone people to death for being drunkards, we try to rehabilitate them. We don't slaugher birds simply b/c women have menstrual bleeding. (Lev 15:30) The Koran says, "For Allah loves not those who do wrong". That's a nice quote. Is this supposed to make me convert to Islam?
To your last question: many copies doesn't disqualify it from being false - If the many copies were all copied by one or two people one could wonder if they were inventing their own text. However, these copies are from all over the mediteranean basin, copied in different centuries by many different people. Now, when collected and discovered to agree in such detail - that's irrefutable documentation.
As to the 63% alleged agreement. The only differences are very minor, not changing the meaning.
What?!?! Can't fictional stories be spread around the world for many centuries? The fact that the bible was copied and spread around does not make it true, DOES IT???
if you believe in Jesus as the son of God, so Why would you pray and ask forgiveness form the son of God, but not God himself?
Why Bible is different from my country than yours?, than my friend in the Middle East?, than my other friend in Asia?, than my other friend in up north Europe?, than the ones down south Australia?
I'm not sure what faith U are alluding 2, but if it was 2 followers of christ (christian).Then they would be asking God 2 forgive them in the name of Jesus.However Jesus and God are 1 in the same."In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God ,and the word was God." verse 2 "He was in the beginning with God." verse 14 "And the word became flesh and dwelt among us,and we beheld His glory,the glory as of the only begotten of the father,full of grace and truth."This is why the difference
I literally gasped at Obama's comment that "If my daughters make a mistake, I will not want them to be punished with a baby." He would prefer to have his unborn grandchildren chopped up and scraped into a medical waste receptacle so that they wouldn't "punish" his daughters? So horrifying.
If you're pro-life, pro-life with exceptions or even pro-choice but only limited to early pregnancy then google "PETITIONS AGIANST FOCA" and sign one to show Congress that America does not support The Freedom of Choice Act. Make sure it's AGAINST it, though.
You say I will never look at Obama the same again? more like, I will never look at you the same again.
You guys are not looking at the big picture. The president does not have the authority to change legislation regarding abortion, gay rights, ect. That's just an illusion perpetrated by the Republicans. After 6 years of complete control of legislative, executive, and judical branchs did they overturn any of these laws? NOPE!
put the Word of God into our horrible, ugly and corrupt media! thank you making a vioce! i am only under 18 and i say, we have made ahorrible decision in picking Barrack Obama as our next president. pray that God changes his heart. pray for mercy on our nation! the millaseconds are urgent
I thank God for Obama's victory, daily! Finally, we will have a President who actually behaves like a Christian instead of Bush, the most anti-Christ President in history.
1bulma1, please reconsider your thought that politics and religion must not be mixed. This is the exact reason that the country is in the place its in. Our founding fathers were emphatic and can be proven that they purposely wanted christianity to be the bedrock of our constitution. We have done nothing but take God out of everything since 1963 and it can be proven what has happened since then has been nothing less than catatrophic. America needs God like never before.
yeah but like I said we live in a world that is diverse and no one has the right to force christian tradition on others,these are the kinds of thing that lead to war
christinity is a personal relationship with u and God
am a christian and I think u are getting this obama thing very very wrong,the bible
said give wat is to cesear his and what is too God his.obama seves a nation that is full of diversity christian,muslim,hindu,scientolgist e.t.c and he owes a duty to all of them.he
cant say becos he is a christian short out every other religon when he is ruling a country that is diverse
Matt 24:24 "False christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead if possible even the elect." If works get you to heaven, Jesus' sacrifice was done in vain. Jesus is the only way to the Father. Obama has sugar coated immorality and many have taken the bait. I am not saying I know he is antichrist but he certainly resembles him. Only God knows. All we can do is make sure we are ready.
In the bible it speaks of Jesus' Lover, his closest disciple Thomas. That is why they removed the Gospel of Thomas out of the Bible, becuase it reveals the truth. The bible revised.The other disciple were jealous of him. He reveals why he is crucified on the cross. They didn't believe the son of God could be gay, Jesus reveals to Mary his Mother. It says in the Bible, when you see the rainbow you that God is coming back. It's not a coicidence that LGBT represnet the "Rainbow".
While Jesus never spoke in opposition to homosexuality, the reference to Jesus being gay is just silly. The Gospel of Thomas wasn't written by Thomas. That much is certain. It was written long after Thomas' death. While your understanding of the Bible is wacky, this much I agree with you. The New Testament does NOT condemn homosexuality. The wording I Cor 6:9 and I Timothy 1:10 are best not translated "homosexual". The Rom. 1:27 text is actually against aphrodite worship, not homosexuality.
The serpent in the garden was pro-choice too. That independence away from God and His revealed truth is what has messed up the whole world. Many of the serpent's lies and corruptions manifest in religions. God has stepped into the world to rescue and restore us through Jesus. He is out only hope.
The audacity!...how can the reverend bring damnation to his own country through his words? doesnt he know that the scriptures declare that words uttered through our mouths are powerful to bless or to damn... this is sad
1.The 2 Old Testament texts, Sodom and Gomorrha - not about homosexuality but rape (and see Ezekiel 16:49 for explanation). Lev.18:22, was about keeping away from other nations where homosexual prostitution prevailed. The 3 New Testament texts I already refered to. And...Jesus never mentioned homosexualilty. He certainly knew about it.
You are left without any Biblical text opposed to homosexuality. All you have is your prejudice.
yo ma brther sorry but i must of wrote my message wrong!!! iw as actually agreeing with you!! i was stating that this video is wrong.sorry my brother PEACE
I dont know what Bible your reading! Sodom and Gomorrha was homosexuality... and in lev. it says that homosexuality is an abomination if you want to disagree with me go ahead but i dont suggest you disagree with God!
Landsdown I am always willing to be corrected by the Word of God with the Word of God. You have accepted the truth for a lie. You have accepted man's reasoning over the Word of God. With your reasoning we should not marry because Jesus never said to get married as well. It is simple compromise that leads to hating God's word as it is simply stated. If you are going to correct me, use only God's word, not man's. What scripture will you use to correct God?
And you, twosulcata, are unwilling to let the Word of God speak to you. Instead, you take your bigotry and try to squeeze it into the Bible. Well, the Bible won't take your squeezing. It stands above your bigotry.
BTW, I have corrected you using only God's word. You are putting your bigotry onto God's word. Shame on you.
Nice try at being sarcastic, twosulcata! I have been in several conversations about the Bible. Tell me what your issue was and I will re-give you the Biblical resources.
I thought it was obvious, sorry. What scripture do you use to show God condones homosexuality? (same gender sex if you are offended with the modern term) Biblical sources only. Also I am curious about your veiw. Who goes to heaven and Why?
And how do you explain away Romans 1:20-27? It is not as you have explained away "required to have sex both ways" IF you use the BIBLE to interpret the Bible. Otherwise, "exchanged" wouldn't fit. When you exchange, you trade one for another. It is not both and... "Men with men committing what is shameful" does not give any room for having "sex both ways". Leviticus 18 says NOTHING about "male temple prostitution", nor is it even in the CONTEXT. You are deceived.
twosulcata, Paul wrote Romans from Ephesus where the temple of Aphrodite was located. Paul wrote against that idolatry. And, of course, "exchanged" fits perfectly. When required to go both ways you are exchanging a natural function for an unnatural one.
Leviticus 18:2-3,24;20:23- a warning against doing what the egyptians and canaanites did. Ancient history says that male prostitution was rampant. No where in Lev. does it prohibit a homosexual relationship.
And I'm writing from Kansas (where the abortion captial of the world resides), so maybe I'm just writing to the abortion industry? And maybe when John wrote from the isle of Patmos from the 3rd heaven he was visiting, it only applies to the angels & natives on the isle? That's ridiculous twisting of the Word and inconsistent with the Bible as a whole. Maybe I can write from my corner of the world to an audience larger than a fifty-mile radius. On that count, we can redefine the entire Bible.
Moreover, Paul wrote Romans to ROMANS (see 1:7) and Ephesus is NOT Rome, nor even the same area of land or country. I DO let the Bible speak to me. Maybe that's counsel you should heed yourself.
I just gave the thumbnail version of those texts. The evidence is quite conclusive that there is no opposition to homosexuality in Scripture. Also - Jesus never mentions it and if it were so darn important, why did he leave it out!
The "evidence" being "quite conclusive" only fits your thumbnail when it's twisted to do so. Maybe Jesus "left it out" because it was just that obvious... If you want to make a list of the sins Jesus left out, we could also condone child abuse and incest, bestiality, slavery, and the list goes on and on. Jesus and the Father are one. He didn't need to repeat what God had already said. What He did repeat, He refined, not deleted or twisted.
twosulcata, you are missing my entire point. The religious right in this country has made "anti-homosexuality" one of only 2 planks in its platform. All that without Jesus saying anything about it.
First, the religious right isn't a political party and thus doesn't have a platform. Secondly, four sin categories (if you will) defile the land: broken covenants, idolatry, innocent bloodshed & sexual immorality. I'd love to address each of these, but time does not permit. Maybe abortion and homosexuality are so prevalent in debate because it's a good starting point. But if we can pervert the truth for a lie, then even sin isn't "sin" anymore in our self-righteous eyes. (Isaiah 5:20)
I'm well aware what a political party is and isn't. But Dobson and Robinson etc. have so distorted the teachings of Jesus and have worked to mobilize evangelicals to march to the tune of only 2 issues.
And I DON'T CARE what Bobson and Robertson have mobilized. I follow neither of them. Obama hasn't won until the states ratify him on December 15. And to parallel Obama with truth is only indicative of the height of deception you are walking in. Truth is ONLY found in the person of Jesus Christ. (which Obama is not, nor does he emulate)
come on now, you that's rediculous. Your refusal to look at context of Scripture is because you would rather keep prejudice intact. - What, you don't think the electors will ratify the will of the people on 12-15?
I only mean Obama stands for truth and his Faith is a bright light. I thank God for Obama's victory and a return to Christian values in the White House instead of the evil of the last 8 yrs.
And I said Paul wrote Romans FROM Ephesus!! That helps explain the context of his letter.
Paul writing from Ephesus no more changes the context than me writing from Kansas. THAT is what is ridiculous. He is writing to the CHURCH, and he said exactly what he meant. The context of Romans 1:27 is defined IN Romans 1, which Paul clearly addresses as FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD (see vs. 20), not from a narrow "Aphrodite temple in Ephesus at this point in history" perspective. That is truly grasping for straws and twisting the Word to make it fit what you want it to say.
and IF you're going to say that Lev 18 was written as a warning against what other nations was doing, then so must ALL of Lev be interpreted, which is FAULTY. That completely changes the Blood Atonement model of Lev 16&17, which is a dangerous place to go, because it was one of the models to prepare the way for the ultimate Blood Atonement in Jesus. Wow, at that rate, we can make the Bible say anything we want. Scary...
You have made an erronous conclusion to justify your unwillingness to listen to Scripture. All of Lev. does not need to be interp. the same as the passage in which that warning occurs. The Atonement of Jesus, which I accept, is not in jeapordy. I'm afraid you are the one making the Bible say what you want because it won't be squeezed into your prejudice.
As for the Romans text. The context I mention does not prove my point, but it renders your conclusion, once again, baseless.
If God was addressing male temple prostitution, (as you assert in Lev 18:22), He is fully capable of saying that, which He had no trouble in various other places of Scripture. I am not prejudiced and this has nothing to do with prejudice. "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." is nowhere contexted within male shrine prostitutes. I can pull anything out of history to change context, but the Word of God interprets itself.
Actually, the Bible expects us to use the brains God gave us to understand His Holy Word. If you are going to stick to "the Bible interprets itself", I hope you are willing to pluck out your eye or chop off your hand or other limb when you use it to sin. That is precisely what Matthew tells us Jesus said.
Most Christians I know don't think the Bible interprets itself in Matthew. Maybe you need to use the resources God gave us to interpret Leviticus as well.
I repeat: when you take ONE verse out of an ENTIRE book & render the context changed just for that ONE...[your conclusions are incomplete & erroneous] No serious student of anything, (Bible, science, lit, whatever), can justify such a conclusion. It is absurd.
Actually, if left alone to the human brain to understand His Word (Is. 55:6-11), we'll always fall short. We need His Spirit, (which I use in conjunction with my brain), with His Word.
And I repeat that I have only allowed the Bible to say what it is trying to say. You have decided to inject your prejudice into the Bible and you want the Bible to uphold your prejudice and the Bible just won't do that for you. You continue to invent ways to make that happen. If you really believe the Bible is the word of God you need to use the tools/resources we have been given to bring out the truth, whatever it says.
I study the Word of God with the Holy Spirit and prayer. I can't think of a higher authority on God's Word than God Himself. I'll stick with His Spirit to understand His Word, thank you. I'll leave man's theologies to man's demise. In the Words of Jesus, "wisdom is justified by her children."
He also said we'd know a tree by its fruit. My branch bears fruit only because of its connection to the Vine. But that fruit IS consistent with Christ's fruit-- which speaks for itself.
great ending there, twosulcata, just looks like you selfrighteously place yourself right up there with Jesus and, of course, that leaves me somewhere without Jesus. I consider that shameful. I serve the same Jesus you claim as your savior. We disagree over interpretation of Scripture and you interpret it as much as anyone. One obvious conclusion is that this "anti-homosexual" thing you have going is anything but an open and shut case. You would do well to let Jesus be the judge and not you.
Your interpretation of my last comments shed much light on how you misinterpret the Bible as well. I said nothing about being "right up there with Jesus" or you "without Jesus". Nor did I mean anything remotely close. But it just goes to show how you twist things. Las
I'm a white Christian conservative. And rev. Wright is CORECT about the HORRIBLE THINGS this country has done. It's NOT CHRISTIAN to endorse slavery, fund and engage in the genocide over the indians, Use black enlisted men in the US Army as guinea pigs, use capitalism to opress, Intern thousands of Japanese in WWII, promote child labor, Smash unions. ban integration. allow abortion THESE ARE HORRIBLE PARTS OF THE US HISTORY. Does God bless these??? LIberty??? Abortion takes that away in the womb
MarkCox73 3 years ago
thats not true. that only happened in the old testement if you would leave your faith you would get stoned to death thats why god sent jesus to die on the cross and pay for our sins
sindinicon13 3 years ago 19
You do know theres been a team going for over a hundred years searching for proof that jesus was ever alive and they've found nothing
MiikeDante 3 years ago
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t0m44 3 years ago
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t0m44 3 years ago
The problem with a religion like christianity is that most of the 'holy' scriptures are contradictory. Bush chose to interpret the part of the bible which tells us that the christian god wanted his followers to destroy 'unbelievers'.
t0m44 3 years ago
And just look how that turned out.
Then you get people like Obama who chose to interpret different parts of the bible, like to treat others as you would treat yourself. How can any religion function properly if there is this much variation in it?
t0m44 3 years ago
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t0m44 3 years ago
The non-abrahamic religions function so much better. It is such a shame that they have not become the most powerful religions in the most powerful nations. Had that happened, the world would be a much better place (this is my opinion as an atheist).
For example, there is a phrase in the hindu scriptures that says of god
'He knows... Or, he may not know'
they have the guts, and their religion is open enough to admit its flaws.
t0m44 3 years ago
If all christians stopped trying to silence their brothers' views and accepted them for what they were,
honest interpretations of the same bible they read from
then america could once again become a great and respected nation.
Until that happens, though, there can never be peace.
t0m44 3 years ago
thank you so much for this video.
TrelleborgtheLegend 3 years ago 7
im confused wright claims to be a preacher of god but from all ive seen is that he preaches politics is he a preacher or a politicion i dont get
sindinicon13 3 years ago 4
I hope someone publicly asks him, Barack Obama, if he believes Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.
Thisisnotmyrealname8 3 years ago 4
God Bless all theee only true and Living God JESUS CHRIST
Jiballin 3 years ago 2
Every Sunday? Jesus said those who do not abide in my father's will shall not enter into the Kigdom of Heaven. I don't believe Abortion is something the Lord would stand for nor say it's ok. the Killing of the innocence is an Abomination? but didnt wright killing of innocent but they stand for abortion :S they worry about the war but then kill babies? come on man Liberal's get free'd from satan accept Christ
Jiballin 3 years ago 2
I'm pretty sure Jesus taught peace, love, and understanding.
Jesus was a liberal.
Nojintt 3 years ago 2
It really bothers me when Christians think tearing someone down and acting defensive is the best way to promote the Author of Love! I'm studying to be a youth pastor and I'm proud to have voted Obama and greatly regret voting for Bush the first time. What Bush and Rove did (convince Christians they have to vote Republican) was legitimately evil!
OptimusJon 3 years ago 5
As a Christian, I thank God for a candidate and President like Obama after 8 years of Bush, the most anti-Christ president in history. Bush was also the worst president in our history.
landsdown44 3 years ago
I confess I voted for Obama... but I ask God to forgive me if this was not His will...
rnmultimedia 3 years ago
Grow balls and ur own mind! Make a choice, an informed one and stick to it...
ritapham 3 years ago
And also, yes, the universe is finite, but the "end of everything" will come only when ALL energy has taken its most diluted form - heat. (Science is my religion.)
FireRagnarok 3 years ago
I hope barack obama is an atheist in disguise. Or at least a smart believer.
guitarmaestro078 3 years ago
The person who made this video is the true deceiver
benswrath 3 years ago 2
Only a fool claims to know what Jesus would say or do without actually examining the LIFE of Christ, to know for sure.
I'll tell you who Jesus would vote for....
He wouldn't vote at all!!!
The only "Christian nation" left is Ethiopia, and look how the world views and treats them.
If the world hates you, REJOICE! The world, the flesh, and the devil are God's enemies, and they always make war with those whom God loves.
Grimblix 3 years ago 2
You know, I think I'm gonna have to agree with you on that. I don't think Jesus would vote at all.
marcos57431 3 years ago 2
Why do you people think your better then everyone? We are all the same, we are all from the energy. It doesnt matter what you are black,white, wiccan, christian, gay, or str8. we are all cut from the same cloth. I dont think everything the preacher is saying is right....but i feel good knowing Barack Obama is an open minded president and i hope to know one day i will be free to do what i will.
Bokertov86 3 years ago
Fucking pigs.
ohmyjapan 3 years ago
Amen im glad to see others spreading the truth because we live in the last days and God is coming for his people it's time to wake up!!! God Bless you!!!!
rckt220 3 years ago 2
Vote for Jesus Christ, running for president! He wants to take money from the rich and help the poor. He wants healthcare for all! He wants to end the Iraq war! He wants to help save his beautiful planet from global warming.
Hm. Jesus sounds pretty liberal to me! Unless, of course, you're too narrow-minded and only focus on one issue (ie: abortion). That would make you a conservative (read: moron).
I can't wait until you're in The White House PRESIDENT Obama!
Cougs08 3 years ago
Cougs08:
who sais God wants to do any of these things? I don't believe that a single one of them is true really. he wishes to bless his ppl with eternal riches in heaven. he wishes to save our souls from eternal death and give us life through salvation by his son jesus christ. idk and i dont clain to know his exact position on the war in iraq, but i can tell you that the 911 attacks as well as hurracane catrina were thigs that he allowed to happen because we have become an evil nation.
buddyynot 3 years ago
Now who told you that he ALLOWED those things to happen? God does not ALLOW things to happen, or MAKE them happen if they are bad things. God is there to help you in any way possible, not to ever punish.
marcos57431 3 years ago
**continued** also he gave us this planet, and i know that it does not matter what i do (i will still do everything to preserve the beauty of earth because it all gives glory to Him in its beauty)because he already has everything planned out, and this world is finite, that is to say it has an end, and we can do nothing that will destroy it before he sais so. i am narrow minded, cause i know the truth. so, i don't need to have an open mind. I attempt to love all ppl, and hate sin. just like Jesus
buddyynot 3 years ago
"i dont clain to know his exact position on the war in iraq"
Really? You really can't tell if God would be pro- or anti- war? Interesting, for a loving and peaceful God.
"but i can tell you that the 911 attacks as well as hurracane catrina were thigs that he allowed to happen because we have become an evil nation."
You've got to be kidding me. I never say this, because I don't believe such a place exists, but go to hell. You are sickly narrowminded and disgusting in your belief.
Cougs08 3 years ago
Now what exactly do you define as "sin?" If you mean hurting other people and doing just plain bad things, then I agree with you, I hate sin as well. But if you mean like masturbation and other things like that, not that's just silly.
marcos57431 3 years ago
"i am narrow minded, cause i know the truth."
Excuse me for a minute while I finish laughing. Seriously, you are aware that there are BILLIONS of religions out there? The chance of YOU being right is one in infinity!
FireRagnarok 3 years ago
Cougs, I couldn't agree with you more. Obama's stands on the issues are very close to those of Jesus of the Gospels. On the other hand, the actions of Bush are pretty much the opposite of the Jesus of the Gospels.
landsdown44 3 years ago 2
Christianity is a hoax. Christianity is Roman war propaganda against the Jews and nonwhites. New testament was written by Romans to demean and destroy Judaism. Titus Flavius who destroyed the Jewish Temple commissioned the Christian hoax as a replacement for Judaism. Titus' Flavius military campaign against Jerusalem was transformed into Jesus' ministry against Judaism
Search "Joseph Atwill" -author Caesar's Messiah
See youtube video- watch?v=dCNJf83bqjs
pt1200 3 years ago
your right but people only see what they wanna see but IMO in 3-4 generation christianity will be just a cult because people are starting to see that all this crap with religion is not only a waste of time and just wasted the society, the things were a lot better a few thousand years ago, people cared about each other for their own survival, now no one cares bout the others (only the ones that that affect them, though they wanna seem that way) because the others are needed only for the economy
FreddyGod2 3 years ago
Obama will be good for this country,give him a chance.
BDBOH 3 years ago
For the love of God, wake up!!!!!!!
ShAyAnDjAmEs09 3 years ago
google : obama campaign linked to chechen terrorism
fthrcast 3 years ago
Christians god is going to damn america after the rapture...we love you jesus!!!
sandroeleven 3 years ago
Brainwashing.
JonathanWKG 3 years ago
Spare me all the religious doubletalk on both sides. they do that to jerk off the mental midgets, just like Bush and Palin did. Wright is a pig, that is why I hate theocons period. Blacks are basically morons, the A bombs dropped on Japan ended the war, a war where the Japs murdered millions in Asia for no reason.
The right wing pig who posted this nauseasting trash must think A bombs are okay but abortion is bad.
jakefree25 3 years ago
theres a muslim in the white house???? what the fuck is wrong you democrats just because he's black he has to be in the white house? wait for a good black man to run this guy is going to kill us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ortizbrosproductions 3 years ago
Gay marriage & civil unions are constitutional. The rights of homosexual couples are protected because of our constitution. The bible plays no role in government because not everyone is a christian. If you think Jesus is against gay marriage, then don't marry a gay person. :)
Can you show me any verses in the bible where Jesus himself criticizes gays? I dont know about you, but I thought that above all, Jesus promoted love and tolerance. Never did he promote heterosexuality.
xilikeporkx 3 years ago
Actually the Dead Seas Scrolls (which are only the Hewbrew Bible "Old Testament') show that the Bible has barely changed at all since then and now.
Stop trying to rewrite history like an idiot.
There is only ONE Version of the Bible (two if you count the differences of the Septuaigint and the Masoretic Old Testaments which are simply that the former has more books canonized) and many interpretations such as King James versus New International Version or the Bible in German or French etc.
IDNeon 3 years ago
Fortunately Obama got elected, because things are going to get really fun now that the brainwashed conservative evangelical movement is getting exposed. By the end of this term it will be realized that
1. The Bible is a bunch of ancient opinions that should be approached as a big piece of inspirational literature.
2. Any real insights that are in The Bible are shared with many other world religions, namely the Golden Rule and The Dying God Archetype.
synch1216 3 years ago
3.The major religious institutions perpetuate inter-faith conflict.
4.Allowing religious bias to trump the rational integration of ideas toward a useful median is the greatest weakness of humanity.
When we clear this hurdle, humanity will be more honest. Instead of saying "I don't like Obama cuz hes Moslem.", that famous lady can admit "I don't like him because he's Black and I think all blacks are Moslem and scary." That way all can clearly see how sick she is and the healing can begin.
synch1216 3 years ago
wHAT A HATEFUL MINISTRY.
pricelesspam 3 years ago
We choose what religion we think is right,cant you see how much we want to seek the truth,if it happen that we choose the wrong one cant you see that is fated?Good people who seek the truth will find the right path guide by Him.Pray for His light,He will show you the truth.Stop fighting who is rite or wrong!Please help ourself may God help us find way out of the darkness.Stop pick pointing religion shortcomings,let us unite and believe the is God who create us.
satisfucktor 3 years ago
Opps, sorry that was in the book of John. G_D Bless!
MelodiesfromHeaven 3 years ago
Damn that Obama thinking muslims have rights
hebrewhammershabbat 3 years ago
There should be another Divine book that God has sent after the Bible got changed.
What is the Divine book that NEVER EVER CHANGE?
wake up people!!!
Peace upon the two prophets Mohammad and Jesus.
mboostji 3 years ago
Are you an imbecile? The Bible hasn't changed since it was written 2,000 years ago. And it says there will be NO MORE GOSPELS after it...that includes Mohammad the FALSE Prophet.
IDNeon 3 years ago
You are delusional. The Bible has changed CONSTANTLY. You don't know what you are talking about. Bible=Fiction.
froggyola 3 years ago
The Bible has not changed constantly, froggy, the copies that are extant agree with one another in amazing detail. It is, in fact, the best documented work of antiquity.
landsdown44 3 years ago
actually there are thousands of differences between the varying versions of the bible
liber8me 3 years ago
I don't know if you refer to english versions or if you refer to New Testament manuscripts.
1. with regard to english versions: the differences are mostly about updating english usage to make it contemporary with current use of the language with minor other differences.
2.With regard to manuscripts: almost all differences are additional phrases, the gender of names, definite articles, conjunctions, really small stuff that does not change the meaning.
Other than that, you are just wrong.
landsdown44 3 years ago
You clearly need a history lesson. There are many varying versions of the bible. The dead sea scrolls show us that the bible has changed over the years.
porghog 3 years ago
pardon me, but that is precisely what the dead sea scrolls did NOT show. What they showed was that the Old Testament books, particularly Isaiah, is amazingly close to other Hebrew and english translations we already have.
landsdown44 3 years ago
"Amazingly close"? If the bible as we have it is the pure, inerrant word of God, then it should be the exact same as it was originally. Fun fact: Did u know that modern bibles contain extra information in I John 5:7? The phrase "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost" is NOT in the oldest found manuscripts. Ofcourse that is just ONE example.
porghog 3 years ago
proghog, I've got a fun fact for you. You are wrong about I John 5:7. It is virtually only the King James version that contains the errant text in that verse. No other modern translation makes that mistake that came from Erasmus' translation.
Another fun fact, there are more than 5,000 manuscripts that were hand copied throughout the centuries and the differences between them are miniscule. No other book from antiquity is that highly documented.
landsdown44 3 years ago
When I said modern, I was referring to the most popular modern bible (KJV. You do now admit that the KJV is NOT the pure, inerrant word of God. You must also realize that for centuries, Americans had only the flawed version on of I John 5:7 and MANY of them still believe this verse is a part of the inerrant word of God. Furthermore, your idea of "miniscule" is subjective. Some people feel that every single line of the bible is straight from God and that ANY variations makes it errant.
porghog 3 years ago
Let's revert to reality. I NEVER said the KJV is pure. I never said ANY translation is pure. No translation of anything is going to be copied without error for hundreds of years.
In fact, of all the modern translations, the KJV is the LEAST accurate.
People who believe God wrote the perfect, word for word Bible are clueless.
While the Bible is inspired by God, there are some glosses and redactions. Look at John 7:53-8:11. That story, while probably accurate, was never in the origional.
landsdown44 3 years ago
Ah you're speaking of the "Pericope Adulterae". Yes, I have done my research on that passage. The problem with the bible being "impure" is that there is NO clear consensus about what parts to take as the pure, inerrant, word of God and what parts to dismiss as human creation. And for many years, before scholars began to critique the bible diligently, passages such as the Pericope Adulterae were accepted as truth. In fact, many Christian denominations still believe in such passages.
porghog 3 years ago
You are in error. There is very clear consensus on what parts of the Bible are clearly from the origional manuscripts. The Aland greek New Testament is widely accepted. Aside from the references to John 8 and I John 5, there are only 1 or 2 other passges in question. What's left are literally very minor variations to words, phrases.
Actually, I do believe the John 8 text is legit even though John probably never included it. The story probably actually happened.
landsdown44 3 years ago
"The Aland Greek New Testament" is not widely accepted because many people haven't even done the research to find out that it exists. There are many denominations who still believe the KJV is the only version that can be trused and others who believe that it is the the best version. And your opinion that John 8 is legit does not make it legit. Many different people can have various opinions about what parts of the bible are correct. Just b/c it sounds right to u, doesn't make it true.
porghog 3 years ago
wrong again. The Aland N.T. is widely accepted. Christian Scholarship is pretty universal about that. There are some independent churches that don't even know what scholarship is. We just have to let them be where they are. Of course my opinion about John 8 is not final for anyone but me.
Bottom line: The Scriptures as we have them are the best documented work of antiquity. And that is saying something.
landsdown44 3 years ago
The term "widely accepted" is subjective. Can you tell me how many denominations use the Aland N.T. when they quote scripture. From my observations, most quote the from versions such as the KJV or NIV. & Even if the bible is the "best documented work of antiquity" (which is also subjective), that doesn't mean that it is The Truth or that it should be the standard by which we base our law system. Many scholars believe that even many parts of the N.T. are merely pseudepigrapha.
porghog 3 years ago
Virtually all theologians use modern translations such as NRSV. Many also use a modern paraphrase, THE MESSAGE. That paraphrase was completed by an outstanding scholar. You are wrong about at least 2 things:
1. The Bible is the best documented work of antiquity - is not subjective. There simply is no comparison.
2. Most scholars do not believe many parts of the N.T. are pseudepigrapha. You can always find a "scholar" out there in left field, but scholarship is pretty much of one mind.
landsdown44 3 years ago
What do you mean by "best documented"? That is a subjective phrase because I don't know what STANDARDS you are using. "Best" in what way? Even if it is, that DOESN'T make it true. CORRECT? Also, MANY (I never said "most" b/c I don't have specific numbers)scholars do believe that many parts of the NT are pseudepigrapha. You never did tell me about how many common Christians actually reference the Aland N.T. Maybe textual critics use it but how many copies of it is sold in comparison to the KJV?
porghog 3 years ago
Good grief, the Aland Greek New Testament is written in --- kione Greek. How many can read that??? By best documented - the fact that there are more than 5,000 N.T. manuscripts that are in virtual agreement with each other virtually assures the reader that the text we have is from the origional writer. There is no ancient manuscript that even comes close to this much corroborative evidence.
landsdown44 3 years ago
So, the version of the bible that is most authentic is not even available for most of mankind to read? What a divine way to spread the true word of God! "Virtually all in agreement" is very subjective. I have read that the "major" Greek texts are in complete agreement for about 63% of the time. Again, how does this make the bible true? Also, human beings have the capability of producing vast copies of fictional works, DON'T THEY? Many copies of a book doesn't disqualify it from being false!
porghog 3 years ago
You just aren't getting it. The Aland Text is used in translating into the modern languages. So the NIV, NRSV, NASB, RSV, NEB, for example, all have the advantage of using the best manuscripts in their translation. The only thing that makes these english translations different from one another is audience they are reaching. NASB - exact word for word (but less easily readible), NRSV - easy to understand (not quite as exact) etc.
All of them authentically use the origional language.
landsdown44 3 years ago
I know for a fact that the NIV contains the Pericope Adulterae which you earlier said is most likely NOT an original part of John. Therefore, there are some variations between modern translations and the "original" text. (which we ofcourse don't have) EITHER WAY, you still have not explained how various copies of an ancient book prove that the book is nonfiction. There are many ancient copies of the Koran which are in agreement with each other. Does that make Islam true?
porghog 3 years ago
The NIV includes John 8:1-11 but with a note that says the best manuscripts do not contain these verses.
I never claimed that all the evidence I have produced, proves that the N.T., itself is telling the truth. That is a faith issue.
As for the Quran, just examining the life of the prophet Muhammad and comparing it with Jesus of Nazareth, I'll follow Jesus every time. Compare the two ways of life and make your own judgment.
landsdown44 3 years ago
You don't know what all Jesus of Nazareth did, do u? His whole life is not included in the bible, is it? Secondly, even if Jesus were a perfect role model (according to the bible), you have not given me sufficient reason to believe that the bible is true in the FIRST PLACE!
Also, I might not believe that a God who mandates bloody, gruesome human/animal sacrifices is a perfect and moral God. I might not agree with a god who commands men to stone children to death!
porghog 3 years ago
1. I don't know everything Jesus of Nazareth did. No one does. I said believing the Bible is true is a faith issue. You need to develop your spirituality.
2. As for the events of the Old Testament, you need a history lesson. Your reference to stoning children to death requires that you know much more about a culture that survived about 3,200 years ago. Before you criticize, read some good scholarly commentaries. Talk to a Rabbi. You will learn something.
landsdown44 3 years ago
1. I don't believe that "developed spirituality" means that you believe that a particular ancient book is the true word of God simply b/c people say that it is. That sounds more like social conformity to me.
2. Tell me, SPECIFICALLY, what is wrong with the fact that I don't believe that a moral god should have people in a particular culture to stone their bad children to death? What is wrong with the fact that I don't believe that bloody/gruesome sacrifices should be necessary for forgiveness?
porghog 3 years ago
1. You are deflecting the real issue. If you don't take a serious look at connecting spiritually, you need to face the liklihood that you are missing something important.
2.You apparently know nothing about Israel culture 3,200 yrs. ago. The animal sacrifices replaced the usual religious practice of child sacrifice, for example. You will need to provide me with the text for the "capital punishment of children" statement. I don't have it.
landsdown44 3 years ago
1. I do take a serious look at spirituality. I simply disagree with YOUR OPINION about what true spirituality means.
2. Deut 21:18-21 (stone children to death). I also don't like the part that requires that a raped women MUST MARRY HER RAPIST (Deut 22:28). Ofcourse, all of us don't have the same types of morals and values. These are simply mine.
porghog 3 years ago
You still have not bothered to understand a culture of s fledgling tribe in the midst of a hostile environment, seeking survival.
No parent was required to stone a child. This referes to an older son (a drunkard) and only if the parents were so consumed by misbehavior that they took him to the elders of the city.
As for a woman required to marry her rapist. This is untrue. The Father was allowed to refuse this marriage. This law also appears in more complete form in Exodus 22:16.
landsdown44 3 years ago
The fledging tribe was so desparate in their quest for survival that they had to stone disobedient children to death? And if they were so busy seeking survival, then how did they have time to build altars and sacrifice animals to their blood thirsty god? And you have twisted the passage. It does not say that it HAS to be an "older son" and it does not say that he HAS to be a "drunkard." Also, yes, the woman IS required to marry her rapist UNLESS her father refuses. Her father may not refuse.
porghog 3 years ago
You are wrong about all of your responses. Re-read my post. I told it to you straight. Too bad you don't have any retort. Torah, whether you like it or not, is the most compassionate law code of the ancient world. Deal with it.
Of course our Constitution is more compassionate than Torah. Israel doesn't live by that code anymore either. In virtually every instance the laws were less severe than what was traditionally practiced in every nation around Israel. Again, deal with it.
landsdown44 3 years ago
"You are wrong, you are in error...blah, blah, blah..." That's all you can say. I don't tell you that you're wrong, but I give you hard cold FACTS. All you do is make baseless, subjective claims. Is it not true that vaginal bleeding required that women slaughter two birds? Is is not true that disobedient children, drunkards, etc. were stoned to death? My claims come STRAIGHT FROM THE BIBLE. I have even included the specific verses.
porghog 3 years ago
As long as you are insisting on reading laws made for a culture 3,200 years ago, and remain unwilling to see how that culture differs from the 21st Century you will be stuck in ignorance. I already explained how animal sacrifice was introduced to eliminate child sacrifice. The laws for punishment of criminal behavior were far more just than surrounding nations.
What you have given is total distortion of the intention of the writer of the text.
landsdown44 3 years ago
Maybe I believe that a perfect and moral God does not have to require child OR animal sacrifice. You act as if slaughtering live creatures has to be a necessary part of life. And you are the one who keeps talking about how advanced and compassionate their law code was. I think its barbaric. Also, I think that a perfect God could have given them much more decent laws. God should be outside of time and culture. God shouldn't have to be limited b/c it was 3200 years ago!
porghog 3 years ago
you need a little trip to reality. What was it I said about animal sacrifice: IT REPLACED THE COMMON PRACTICE OF CHILD SACRIFICE. Torah is commonly recognized as one of the most compassionate law codes of the ancient world.
Of course it seems barbaric - have you forgotten you are looking at it from the 21st Century????
God is outside of time and culture
Its US, PEOPLE, who are IN time and stuck in our culture.
landsdown44 3 years ago
So God did not create the barbaric rules found in the Torah? It was created by man.
porghog 3 years ago
Stop playing games. The Torah was a great step forward from what most any culture had experienced to that date. You have apparently ever bothered to do the slightest research in ancient history. Otherwise you wouldn't be without the slightest clue.
landsdown44 3 years ago
Who cares if the Torah was better than the law codes that came before it? The U.S. Constitution is more advanced than the Torah.
porghog 3 years ago
As I said, you have apparently never read word one in ancient history. Saying why didn't they have hummers in Moses' day makes as much sense as your last comment.
landsdown44 3 years ago
All you do is insult my character and knowledge. However, you cannot point out anything specifically wrong with my responses.
porghog 3 years ago
The advancement of human civilization is a natural process. A more sophisticated law code doesn't make the law code infallible or the word of God.
porghog 3 years ago
You say that the Torah was one of the best law codes of its time. (Does this imply that I should worship the god attributed to that law code?) I say that the Egyptian pyramids are some of the most brilliant monuments of the anceient world. (Does this mean we should worship the Egyptian gods to which the pyramids were dedicated?)
porghog 3 years ago
I really think you should investigate those egyptian gods. If you read legitimate works of ancient history you will discover gods that make your skin crawl. And you thought Torah was barbaric.
landsdown44 3 years ago
My point is not that I should worship Egyptian gods per se. My point is that great societal accomplishments (pyramids, law codes, etc.) does not mean that I should worship the god of the society responsible for those great accomplishments. Furthermore, I don't think that the Torah is all that great anyway. Ofcourse that's all subjective.
porghog 3 years ago
Of course you don't think Torah is that great, and with all the advanced reading you have done on the subject I can see how you came to that conclusion.
BTW, the pyramids were all build with slave labor in the harshest conditions, another reason to love those egyptian gods.
landsdown44 3 years ago
Once again, I am not advocating that we worship Egyptian gods. Re-read my post so that you can understand the point I was making. Secondly, why don't you justify the Eyptians's actions in the same way that you justify the Israelites. Remember, you can't judge ancient cultures by our modern standards.(YOUR WORDS)
porghog 3 years ago
I do compare egyptian gods and actions by the same standars I use when looking at Torah. Egypt had nothing comparable to the detailed and compassionate law code that Torah was.
landsdown44 3 years ago
You criticize the Egyptians, using modern standards of morality. However, you do not criticze the Torah using modern standards of morality. That is my point.
porghog 3 years ago
I know what your point is and I did not do that. Use the same standards for both societies and compare.
landsdown44 3 years ago
Compare what? Do you have some list that shows all of the ancient Egyptian laws side by side with all of the laws of the Torah? Have you developed some methodology to compare the two cultures? Have you developed methodology to compare the standards of those cultures to modern standards? Where are your results and how do you interpret them?
porghog 3 years ago
proghog, compare the cultures and draw your own conclusions. Do some reading.
landsdown44 3 years ago
As far as my questions are concerned, I take that as a "no". Also, I do not have time to do extensive research about those ancient cultures. I have many other things to do. Once again, my point was not to suggest that we should acknowledge Egyptian gods.
porghog 3 years ago
I'm just tired of this back and forth. There are some legit ways to compare Torah with other cultures. I don't have a chart of ancient religions and cultures if that's what you mean. I have taken a course or two in ancient history and I'm not making up my conclusions.
landsdown44 3 years ago
Even if the Israelites were a "better" culture, it does not mean that their law code is the true, divinely inspired word of God. Point blank!
porghog 3 years ago
You might be interested to know that Torah is known as one of the most advanced and compassionate law codes in history. For example I know of no other ancient law code that provided for welfare for the poor. Torah did. In fact there was a law that said, "there shall be no poor among you."
If you want to pick at Torah please make an effort to understand the culture in which it was written. So far you have made no attempt to do that.
landsdown44 3 years ago
I am not trying to write a detailed essay about the lives of ancient Jews. I simply stated a few examples from the Torah. I believe that the U.S. Constitution is much more compassionate than the Torah. We don't stone people to death for being drunkards, we try to rehabilitate them. We don't slaugher birds simply b/c women have menstrual bleeding. (Lev 15:30) The Koran says, "For Allah loves not those who do wrong". That's a nice quote. Is this supposed to make me convert to Islam?
porghog 3 years ago
To your last question: many copies doesn't disqualify it from being false - If the many copies were all copied by one or two people one could wonder if they were inventing their own text. However, these copies are from all over the mediteranean basin, copied in different centuries by many different people. Now, when collected and discovered to agree in such detail - that's irrefutable documentation.
As to the 63% alleged agreement. The only differences are very minor, not changing the meaning.
landsdown44 3 years ago
What?!?! Can't fictional stories be spread around the world for many centuries? The fact that the bible was copied and spread around does not make it true, DOES IT???
porghog 3 years ago
if you believe in Jesus as the son of God, so Why would you pray and ask forgiveness form the son of God, but not God himself?
Why Bible is different from my country than yours?, than my friend in the Middle East?, than my other friend in Asia?, than my other friend in up north Europe?, than the ones down south Australia?
Why has Bible changed?
Where had the true Bible gone?
mboostji 3 years ago
I'm not sure what faith U are alluding 2, but if it was 2 followers of christ (christian).Then they would be asking God 2 forgive them in the name of Jesus.However Jesus and God are 1 in the same."In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God ,and the word was God." verse 2 "He was in the beginning with God." verse 14 "And the word became flesh and dwelt among us,and we beheld His glory,the glory as of the only begotten of the father,full of grace and truth."This is why the difference
MelodiesfromHeaven 3 years ago
fuck the bible!!!!!!!
cozeh387 3 years ago
Amen!
Jeremyguru 3 years ago
I literally gasped at Obama's comment that "If my daughters make a mistake, I will not want them to be punished with a baby." He would prefer to have his unborn grandchildren chopped up and scraped into a medical waste receptacle so that they wouldn't "punish" his daughters? So horrifying.
validopinion 3 years ago
I know yo
ChristianSoldier23 3 years ago
If you're pro-life, pro-life with exceptions or even pro-choice but only limited to early pregnancy then google "PETITIONS AGIANST FOCA" and sign one to show Congress that America does not support The Freedom of Choice Act. Make sure it's AGAINST it, though.
froggywind 3 years ago
This video was a complete joke,
You say I will never look at Obama the same again? more like, I will never look at you the same again.
You guys are not looking at the big picture. The president does not have the authority to change legislation regarding abortion, gay rights, ect. That's just an illusion perpetrated by the Republicans. After 6 years of complete control of legislative, executive, and judical branchs did they overturn any of these laws? NOPE!
They were too busy robbing us blind
KlavierPlaya 3 years ago 3
thanks for taking the time to point out the truth to us in this video!!!
theelliechronicles 3 years ago
put the Word of God into our horrible, ugly and corrupt media! thank you making a vioce! i am only under 18 and i say, we have made ahorrible decision in picking Barrack Obama as our next president. pray that God changes his heart. pray for mercy on our nation! the millaseconds are urgent
twosulcata 3 years ago
I thank God for Obama's victory, daily! Finally, we will have a President who actually behaves like a Christian instead of Bush, the most anti-Christ President in history.
landsdown44 3 years ago
and what is with obama and this gay
thing ,didnt u listen to his speech he said black,white hispanics
asian,gay,straight,disable and not disable we are and 4 eva more are the united states of america
he is serving the united state of america not the christians of america and he owes and
should give equal treatment to every citizen of USA
so pls dont say he is not Godly,
u must never mix politics with religon
1bulma1 3 years ago
1bulma1, please reconsider your thought that politics and religion must not be mixed. This is the exact reason that the country is in the place its in. Our founding fathers were emphatic and can be proven that they purposely wanted christianity to be the bedrock of our constitution. We have done nothing but take God out of everything since 1963 and it can be proven what has happened since then has been nothing less than catatrophic. America needs God like never before.
twosulcata 3 years ago
yeah but like I said we live in a world that is diverse and no one has the right to force christian tradition on others,these are the kinds of thing that lead to war
christinity is a personal relationship with u and God
1bulma1 3 years ago
am a christian and I think u are getting this obama thing very very wrong,the bible
said give wat is to cesear his and what is too God his.obama seves a nation that is full of diversity christian,muslim,hindu,scientolgist e.t.c and he owes a duty to all of them.he
cant say becos he is a christian short out every other religon when he is ruling a country that is diverse
contd
1bulma1 3 years ago
Matt 24:24 "False christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead if possible even the elect." If works get you to heaven, Jesus' sacrifice was done in vain. Jesus is the only way to the Father. Obama has sugar coated immorality and many have taken the bait. I am not saying I know he is antichrist but he certainly resembles him. Only God knows. All we can do is make sure we are ready.
tudierudielovesJesus 3 years ago
sarah palin 012
mitchum22 3 years ago
Jesus is Gay
In the bible it speaks of Jesus' Lover, his closest disciple Thomas. That is why they removed the Gospel of Thomas out of the Bible, becuase it reveals the truth. The bible revised.The other disciple were jealous of him. He reveals why he is crucified on the cross. They didn't believe the son of God could be gay, Jesus reveals to Mary his Mother. It says in the Bible, when you see the rainbow you that God is coming back. It's not a coicidence that LGBT represnet the "Rainbow".
otalove 3 years ago
While Jesus never spoke in opposition to homosexuality, the reference to Jesus being gay is just silly. The Gospel of Thomas wasn't written by Thomas. That much is certain. It was written long after Thomas' death. While your understanding of the Bible is wacky, this much I agree with you. The New Testament does NOT condemn homosexuality. The wording I Cor 6:9 and I Timothy 1:10 are best not translated "homosexual". The Rom. 1:27 text is actually against aphrodite worship, not homosexuality.
landsdown44 3 years ago
the rainbow is the promise that He will never flood the earth again...
ArkansasStateChamp10 3 years ago
salvation is not a prayer and an "invitation" of Jesus to come into your heart.
Repent and believe the Gospel.
Bogzy1989 3 years ago
The serpent in the garden was pro-choice too. That independence away from God and His revealed truth is what has messed up the whole world. Many of the serpent's lies and corruptions manifest in religions. God has stepped into the world to rescue and restore us through Jesus. He is out only hope.
DeanCo7777 3 years ago
You people are so sick.
Yes, let's condemn a man who believes in equality and openness and values and morals
Religion has ruined the world.
Mamlog 3 years ago
The audacity!...how can the reverend bring damnation to his own country through his words? doesnt he know that the scriptures declare that words uttered through our mouths are powerful to bless or to damn... this is sad
naara05 3 years ago
read the bible!!!!
benzkii 3 years ago
benzkii, reading the Bible is dangerous. It could lead you to accepting homosexuals as your equal and giving them their civil rights.
landsdown44 3 years ago
theres is nothing like that in the bible!! u must understand the bible, so many people read it but still miss understand it
benzkii 3 years ago
benzkii, here are the facts from the Bible:
1.The 2 Old Testament texts, Sodom and Gomorrha - not about homosexuality but rape (and see Ezekiel 16:49 for explanation). Lev.18:22, was about keeping away from other nations where homosexual prostitution prevailed. The 3 New Testament texts I already refered to. And...Jesus never mentioned homosexualilty. He certainly knew about it.
You are left without any Biblical text opposed to homosexuality. All you have is your prejudice.
landsdown44 3 years ago
yo ma brther sorry but i must of wrote my message wrong!!! iw as actually agreeing with you!! i was stating that this video is wrong.sorry my brother PEACE
benzkii 3 years ago
I dont know what Bible your reading! Sodom and Gomorrha was homosexuality... and in lev. it says that homosexuality is an abomination if you want to disagree with me go ahead but i dont suggest you disagree with God!
ArkansasStateChamp10 3 years ago
Landsdown I am always willing to be corrected by the Word of God with the Word of God. You have accepted the truth for a lie. You have accepted man's reasoning over the Word of God. With your reasoning we should not marry because Jesus never said to get married as well. It is simple compromise that leads to hating God's word as it is simply stated. If you are going to correct me, use only God's word, not man's. What scripture will you use to correct God?
twosulcata 3 years ago
I felf my typo was worth correcting. What I meant to say was you have traded the truth for a lie. Sorry...my bad.
twosulcata 3 years ago
And you, twosulcata, are unwilling to let the Word of God speak to you. Instead, you take your bigotry and try to squeeze it into the Bible. Well, the Bible won't take your squeezing. It stands above your bigotry.
BTW, I have corrected you using only God's word. You are putting your bigotry onto God's word. Shame on you.
landsdown44 3 years ago
I must've missed it. Will you give me those Scripture references (you corrected me with) again? Thanx!
twosulcata 3 years ago
Nice try at being sarcastic, twosulcata! I have been in several conversations about the Bible. Tell me what your issue was and I will re-give you the Biblical resources.
landsdown44 3 years ago
I thought it was obvious, sorry. What scripture do you use to show God condones homosexuality? (same gender sex if you are offended with the modern term) Biblical sources only. Also I am curious about your veiw. Who goes to heaven and Why?
twosulcata 3 years ago
As for the Bible and homosexuality, I claimed the Bible has no opposition to it.
1.Rom. 1:27 is oppostion to the aphrodite religion in which you are required to have sex both ways. That's idolatry of the worst sort.
2. I Cor. 6:9 and I Tim. 1:10 use a word the origin of which is unknown. To translate it as "homosexual" is to insert bias into the text.
3. Lev.18:22 is a warning not to participate in male temple prostitution of other nations.
4. Sodom/Gomorrah story - see Ez. 16:49
landsdown44 3 years ago
And how do you explain away Romans 1:20-27? It is not as you have explained away "required to have sex both ways" IF you use the BIBLE to interpret the Bible. Otherwise, "exchanged" wouldn't fit. When you exchange, you trade one for another. It is not both and... "Men with men committing what is shameful" does not give any room for having "sex both ways". Leviticus 18 says NOTHING about "male temple prostitution", nor is it even in the CONTEXT. You are deceived.
twosulcata 3 years ago
twosulcata, Paul wrote Romans from Ephesus where the temple of Aphrodite was located. Paul wrote against that idolatry. And, of course, "exchanged" fits perfectly. When required to go both ways you are exchanging a natural function for an unnatural one.
Leviticus 18:2-3,24;20:23- a warning against doing what the egyptians and canaanites did. Ancient history says that male prostitution was rampant. No where in Lev. does it prohibit a homosexual relationship.
Let the Bible speak to you.
landsdown44 3 years ago
And I'm writing from Kansas (where the abortion captial of the world resides), so maybe I'm just writing to the abortion industry? And maybe when John wrote from the isle of Patmos from the 3rd heaven he was visiting, it only applies to the angels & natives on the isle? That's ridiculous twisting of the Word and inconsistent with the Bible as a whole. Maybe I can write from my corner of the world to an audience larger than a fifty-mile radius. On that count, we can redefine the entire Bible.
twosulcata 3 years ago
Moreover, Paul wrote Romans to ROMANS (see 1:7) and Ephesus is NOT Rome, nor even the same area of land or country. I DO let the Bible speak to me. Maybe that's counsel you should heed yourself.
twosulcata 3 years ago
I just gave the thumbnail version of those texts. The evidence is quite conclusive that there is no opposition to homosexuality in Scripture. Also - Jesus never mentions it and if it were so darn important, why did he leave it out!
landsdown44 3 years ago
The "evidence" being "quite conclusive" only fits your thumbnail when it's twisted to do so. Maybe Jesus "left it out" because it was just that obvious... If you want to make a list of the sins Jesus left out, we could also condone child abuse and incest, bestiality, slavery, and the list goes on and on. Jesus and the Father are one. He didn't need to repeat what God had already said. What He did repeat, He refined, not deleted or twisted.
twosulcata 3 years ago
twosulcata, you are missing my entire point. The religious right in this country has made "anti-homosexuality" one of only 2 planks in its platform. All that without Jesus saying anything about it.
landsdown44 3 years ago
First, the religious right isn't a political party and thus doesn't have a platform. Secondly, four sin categories (if you will) defile the land: broken covenants, idolatry, innocent bloodshed & sexual immorality. I'd love to address each of these, but time does not permit. Maybe abortion and homosexuality are so prevalent in debate because it's a good starting point. But if we can pervert the truth for a lie, then even sin isn't "sin" anymore in our self-righteous eyes. (Isaiah 5:20)
twosulcata 3 years ago
I'm well aware what a political party is and isn't. But Dobson and Robinson etc. have so distorted the teachings of Jesus and have worked to mobilize evangelicals to march to the tune of only 2 issues.
Thank God, Obama and truth won and they lost.
landsdown44 3 years ago
note: Robertson, not Robinson.
landsdown44 3 years ago
And I DON'T CARE what Bobson and Robertson have mobilized. I follow neither of them. Obama hasn't won until the states ratify him on December 15. And to parallel Obama with truth is only indicative of the height of deception you are walking in. Truth is ONLY found in the person of Jesus Christ. (which Obama is not, nor does he emulate)
twosulcata 3 years ago
come on now, you that's rediculous. Your refusal to look at context of Scripture is because you would rather keep prejudice intact. - What, you don't think the electors will ratify the will of the people on 12-15?
I only mean Obama stands for truth and his Faith is a bright light. I thank God for Obama's victory and a return to Christian values in the White House instead of the evil of the last 8 yrs.
And I said Paul wrote Romans FROM Ephesus!! That helps explain the context of his letter.
landsdown44 3 years ago
Paul writing from Ephesus no more changes the context than me writing from Kansas. THAT is what is ridiculous. He is writing to the CHURCH, and he said exactly what he meant. The context of Romans 1:27 is defined IN Romans 1, which Paul clearly addresses as FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD (see vs. 20), not from a narrow "Aphrodite temple in Ephesus at this point in history" perspective. That is truly grasping for straws and twisting the Word to make it fit what you want it to say.
twosulcata 3 years ago
and IF you're going to say that Lev 18 was written as a warning against what other nations was doing, then so must ALL of Lev be interpreted, which is FAULTY. That completely changes the Blood Atonement model of Lev 16&17, which is a dangerous place to go, because it was one of the models to prepare the way for the ultimate Blood Atonement in Jesus. Wow, at that rate, we can make the Bible say anything we want. Scary...
twosulcata 3 years ago
You have made an erronous conclusion to justify your unwillingness to listen to Scripture. All of Lev. does not need to be interp. the same as the passage in which that warning occurs. The Atonement of Jesus, which I accept, is not in jeapordy. I'm afraid you are the one making the Bible say what you want because it won't be squeezed into your prejudice.
As for the Romans text. The context I mention does not prove my point, but it renders your conclusion, once again, baseless.
landsdown44 3 years ago
If God was addressing male temple prostitution, (as you assert in Lev 18:22), He is fully capable of saying that, which He had no trouble in various other places of Scripture. I am not prejudiced and this has nothing to do with prejudice. "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." is nowhere contexted within male shrine prostitutes. I can pull anything out of history to change context, but the Word of God interprets itself.
twosulcata 3 years ago
Actually, the Bible expects us to use the brains God gave us to understand His Holy Word. If you are going to stick to "the Bible interprets itself", I hope you are willing to pluck out your eye or chop off your hand or other limb when you use it to sin. That is precisely what Matthew tells us Jesus said.
Most Christians I know don't think the Bible interprets itself in Matthew. Maybe you need to use the resources God gave us to interpret Leviticus as well.
landsdown44 3 years ago
I repeat: when you take ONE verse out of an ENTIRE book & render the context changed just for that ONE...[your conclusions are incomplete & erroneous] No serious student of anything, (Bible, science, lit, whatever), can justify such a conclusion. It is absurd.
Actually, if left alone to the human brain to understand His Word (Is. 55:6-11), we'll always fall short. We need His Spirit, (which I use in conjunction with my brain), with His Word.
Regardless, Truth will prevail.
twosulcata 3 years ago
And I repeat that I have only allowed the Bible to say what it is trying to say. You have decided to inject your prejudice into the Bible and you want the Bible to uphold your prejudice and the Bible just won't do that for you. You continue to invent ways to make that happen. If you really believe the Bible is the word of God you need to use the tools/resources we have been given to bring out the truth, whatever it says.
My conclusion is not the absurd one, yours is.
landsdown44 3 years ago
I study the Word of God with the Holy Spirit and prayer. I can't think of a higher authority on God's Word than God Himself. I'll stick with His Spirit to understand His Word, thank you. I'll leave man's theologies to man's demise. In the Words of Jesus, "wisdom is justified by her children."
He also said we'd know a tree by its fruit. My branch bears fruit only because of its connection to the Vine. But that fruit IS consistent with Christ's fruit-- which speaks for itself.
twosulcata 3 years ago
great ending there, twosulcata, just looks like you selfrighteously place yourself right up there with Jesus and, of course, that leaves me somewhere without Jesus. I consider that shameful. I serve the same Jesus you claim as your savior. We disagree over interpretation of Scripture and you interpret it as much as anyone. One obvious conclusion is that this "anti-homosexual" thing you have going is anything but an open and shut case. You would do well to let Jesus be the judge and not you.
landsdown44 3 years ago
Your interpretation of my last comments shed much light on how you misinterpret the Bible as well. I said nothing about being "right up there with Jesus" or you "without Jesus". Nor did I mean anything remotely close. But it just goes to show how you twist things. Las