Separation Of Church & State

[rkzenrage]

@manuatheist1977 Well, we are trying to... just have to wait for the troglodytes to die off.

[daboodeef179]

kind of like what mikepiazza said. the constitution never said anything about separation of church and state.

the constitution said that the government can't regulate the church(elect officials and such). either than that it doesn't say anything else.

[rkzenrage]

@daboodeef179 You just need to read the 1st, you are so far off here.....

[mikepiazza]

Separation of church and state is not found in the constitution or any official U.S. document. The first amendment protects individual liberty and prevents a theocracy. It does not include or exclude religion. It is up to the people to decide. Atheism does not trump any religion and religion does not trump atheism...Jefferson was not a signer of the constitution and did not write the first amendment. Communism is in fact separation of church and state.

[rkzenrage]

@mikepiazza Actually in Communism the state does pass laws regarding religion... you are so fractally wrong on every point it is dizzying

[AiruhnG]

@mikepiazza Separation of church and state was accomplished by judicial fiat in 1947. In 1947 the Supreme Court interpreted the first amendment and ruled that the framers of the Constitution meant that there should be a separation of church and state. So the words are not in the constitution specifically but it is law.

[AiruhnG]

@mikepiazza One important US document that not many people are aware of is the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary. Article XI of this treaty which was started in the administration of George Washington and which was ratified in the administration of John Adams reads, "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. Most founding fathers were Deist not Christians.

[emnity33]

@CesarPhilosophe You sure you didn't just get annoying so he blocked you?

[lemmywhinks]

I think we should just leave things as they are and Christians and Atheists should just leave eachother alone and treat eachother like they would treat themselves.

[rkzenrage]

@lemmywhinks Nope, churches violate the Constitution constantly. When they do not, then a truce is possible.

[rkzenrage]

@lemmywhinks That's the idea, separate government from religion so we can all be left alone.

[Eye2EyeIIIV]

These days, people who are of Christian positions cannot kneel down with one another to pray before a football game at school, for example, & pray to their Lord G-d, & liberals wanna pretend that that’s some "violation" of "separation of Church & State", a doctrine by the way found NO WHERE in the Constitution of the United States.

[rkzenrage]

@Eye2EyeIIIV Read your history.

[Eye2EyeIIIV]

@rkzenrage

And do you think that it's an accident toward ALL that's going on??? Christian people being questioned, being DRIVEN OUT – meanwhile, you have teachers who are actually getting their students to learn about Islam & pray to Mecca & "that's not a violation of separation - that's okay. Because they're learning new cultures & all."

The phrase, "separation of church & state" is not in the Constitution, but was mentioned in some letters to Baptist pastors Jefferson wrote.

[rkzenrage]

@Eye2EyeIIIV HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.... please tell me where christians are being "driven out" LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!

[pyr666]

@Eye2EyeIIIV

"who are of Christian positions cannot kneel down with one another to pray before a football game at school"

yes they can. the school (which is an agent of the government) simply cannot compel its students, in any way, to do so.

[rkzenrage]

@pyr666 Exactly.

[rkzenrage]

@Eye2EyeIIIV Students can absolutely pray before, during and after a game or in school, it just cannot be STATE MANDATED OR LED in any way.

Kids can pray all they want, you are just not allowed to endorse it through your government with is just poorly disguised bullying to those who do not believe or have different beliefs.

There is NO REASON the state should be involved in personal belief other than to protect it and keep yours off of mine.

[HedeenJeff]

Seperation of Jesus Christ and state is offensive and ridiculous. The world and everything in it belongs to Jehova. Jesus is in the Father and the Father in him. Hope everyone enjoys the air they breath, the water they drink, the food they eat, etc. Dont bite the hand that feeds you.

[potentatewags]

This is why the Founding Fathers made our nation a REPUBLIC, not a Democracy, to try to avoid tyranny of the majority.

I would think "enlightened" liberals would stand for freedoms, not against, trying to oppress peoples basic fundamental rights.

[rkzenrage]

@potentatewags I am for the freedom of and from religion, absolutely!

[nightfrog65]

Far Left: Ban all religion and make government the State religion (N. Korea, USSR)

Far Right: You can practice any religion as long as its Christianity (medevial Europe, US religious right during GW

Bush)

Separation of Church and State: You believe in Jesus, who cares? Enjoy your Bible study, but don't rub it in my face.

You don't believe, that's ok too-have a nce day,

[historian65616]

The founders did not want the govt establishing a religion as did the one in England at the time, or for the church to dictate the actions of the govt as happened during the Crusades. The constitution prohibits the above stated behavior, as well as the crushing public religious displays such as ten commandment monuments, prayer in schools, Bible studies, etc.according to the 1st amendment.  It was understood until around the 50's when anti-thiest became increasingly bold and influential.

[oedivelgoog]

--- Fully Separate Church and State ---

I am a member of a Church first and as such I should not be taxed by the State.

Taxation on me by the state is crossing over into the Church authority; thus government is violating the separation principle.

Nor should the laws of the state override the laws of the Church.

[nocturnezero]

No. Being a member of a church doesn't mean you are a religious institution. You're still a citizen.

[rkzenrage]

@oedivelgoog Then you are as unamerican an you can be.  You want a theocracy not a republic.

[008ReBEcCa]

ohhhhh wrong video i thought this was then seperation between church and skate by nofx lol XD

[JackJ1957]

The words "separation" "Church" & "State" do not appear anywhere in the U.S. Constitution.

The phrase actually comes from a private letter Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists. He told them that no particular Christian denomination was going to have a monopoly in government. His words, "wall of separation between Church and State," were not written to remove all religious practice from government or civic settings, but to prohibit the domination of particular religious sects.

[Ringo84]

Where do I even begin with that? Firstly, Separation is not something Jefferson pulled out of his rear end in 1801. This was Madison's first draft of the first Amendment:

'''The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.''

Separation existed long before the Danbury Baptist letter.

[JackJ1957]

And that's why Jefferson, among many others, attended church services held in the capitol building (they continued to be held there until the construction during the Civil War)? Obviously the founding fathers had a much different interpretation of "separation" than do modern "progressives," who seem to be expert in showing that they don't know what not "prohibit(ing) the free exercise thereof" means.

[Ringo84]

Just because Jefferson and other founders attended church doesn't mean that they wanted the government to interfere in religious matters.

I keep hearing that complaint: that the meaning of separation is different now than it was at the time of the country's founding. Separation has NEVER meant 'prohibit the free exercise thereof' but PROTECT the free exercise thereof by keeping the government out of our personal religious business.

[rkzenrage]

@Ringo84 Exactly, George Washington attended church all the time, however he NEVER took communion NOR stated he believed.

[rkzenrage]

@Ringo84 Best post I've read all day!!!!!

[nocturnezero]

The word State appears a couple hundred times, and who cares if it doesn't appear? The First Amendment guarantees the same thing as Separation of Church and State.

[JackJ1957]

I meant to say "State" in conjunction with "Separation" and "church." It also says "...or prohibit the free exercise thereof." So congress shall make no law establishing a religion or prohibiting it's free exercise. That's it. No law promoting, no law banning religion. The practices and writings of the authors of the constitution show clearly what they believed about the 1st Amendment's meaning. Modern reinterpretations notwithstanding.

[nocturnezero]

Right.

[rkzenrage]

@JackJ1957 Several letters and Adams described the 1st in the same way. The treaty of Tripoli states clearly what our nation thinks of christianity.

[JackJ1957]

@rkzenrage While the Founders themselves openly described America as a Christian nation, they did include a constitutional prohibition against a federal establishment; religion was a matter left solely to the individual States. Therefore, if the article is read as a declaration that the federal government of the United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion, such a statement is not a repudiation of the fact that America was considered by them a Christian nation. CONTEXT!

[JackJ1957]

@rkzenrage While the Founders themselves openly described America as a Christian nation, they did include a constitutional prohibition against a federal establishment; religion was a matter left solely to the individual States. Therefore, if the article is read as a declaration that the federal government of the United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion, such a statement is not a repudiation of the fact that America was considered by them a Christian nation. CONTEXT!

[rasaxSF]

Amen! Great video. Thanks!!

[BeanGene]

That was awesome. I really don't understand why this discussion persists. I think there must be some enjoyment from endless agruement. The Government is the lawbreaker, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech; or of the press; or the right of the people to assemble... Get the government out of the classroom, it is destroying this country. Tyranny always looks to mold young minds..

[12outland12]

separation of chruch and state was and still is a good idea the last time religon had complete control in government we had the dark ages while the king looked like he had religion was really in control just look at the cusades thousands of men died in the promise that if they died while denfending the holy land all their sins will be forgive. while it may never get that again it shows the scope of it all

[Habakkuksaid]

The more we take God out of our governmint the more messed up things get. What we need is National repentance day and put the bibles back in school. Also we need to put the Lord in charge of our Governmental finances He is the only one that could really bail us out of this one. Can I get a witness???

[rkzenrage]

@Habakkuksaid Funny, the more we have done it the lower crime, drug use and violence becomes in our nation and the nations with the lowest levels of those horrible things are the least religous... hmmm, probably just a coincidence.

[Cameron816]

Putting the Lord's name on our money which is proclaimed by the word of God "the love of money is the root of all evil". Putting the Lord's name on something that if we love it will result in evil is nothing more than using the Lord's name in vain by the state. So much for the seperation of church and state.

[dragun39]

What we need to focus on is not seperation of church and state. What we need more than anything else is the seperation of private corporations and the government. This unholy union of greed has taken the lives of millions upon millions of people just within the last couple of decades. Time for people to wake up and not be distracted by these types of overplayed non issues like 'church and state'. That's not the problem we're faced with in 2008

[rkzenrage]

Churches are corporations.

[Cabanas751Dunhill]

Amlost ALL of them, but the preachers that KNOW God, will not allow it - they are a true unincorporated Ecclesia. In fact, truth be known, a REAL God FEARING preacher will NOT marry any male+female with a state approved license. He would NOT ever MARRY any same sex members even if threat of death or jail from the state.

[Eye2EyeIIIV]

And do you think that it's an accident toward ALL that's going on??? Christian people being questioned, being DRIVEN OUT – and meanwhile, you have teachers who are actually getting their students to learn about feel Islam, so that they'll turn toward Mecca & pray and "that's not a violation of separation - that's okay. Because they’re learning new cultures & all."

[lemmywhinks]

@Eye2EyeIIIV YOU ARE A FUCKING GENIUS. i give you a thumbs up.

[lemmywhinks]

@dragun39 Since when were church's corporations. my church stays afloat with nothing but donations

[rkzenrage]

@lemmywhinks That has no bearing on it's incorporation status.

[trumpetofheritage]

You forgot to include a few things in your video, like FOOTNOTES where you got those quotes. For every quote you gave, I can give many more by the same person - documetned- that says the opposite.

You use undocumented quotes to assert your opinions. I draw my opinion from documented quotes & even better full texts not taken out of context.

You have prob never read Th Jefferson's ENTIRE letter. By the way, 3 days after writing that metaphor, he attended church IN THE U S CAPITOL!

[rkzenrage]

But not a state church.

Please provide one quote that states that there should be a mixing of church and state.

How religious some of these people were is not the point, the separation of church and state is the point.

I guess reading is hard for you.

[JWonn]

"I do not trust men who know so well what god wants, as i notice it always happens to coincide with their own will"

-Susan B Anthony

[rkzenrage]

@JWonn I agree, because if you know what your imaginary friend is thinking you have REALLY gone over the deep-end.

[politicalphantom]

Video response: KIJeusd7lQU put this after the = in place of the other alphanumeric digits. God bless and spread the word!!!

[That80sGuy1972]

Blurring the lines between church and state only corrupts both the church and the state.

It also borders on treason in my eyes... and I am a Christian.

The best way to put the Devil in charge is to put a man of God in power.

[rkzenrage]

Well stated.

When it does happen the church always ends-up getting screwed.

[That80sGuy1972]

Thank you... and the state gets crewed too. ;)

I have a deep hatred for the hypocrisy required to allow church and state toe be anything but separate. On a personal level, hypocrisy is tolerable. On a governing level, it is an evil monster.

God forgive me, but I endorse assassins (and other evils) who work to remove the political hacks that remove these greater evils.

[rendao1977]

That's a crazy way of putting things, but it's true in a sense! I support any religion that can conduct their faith, worship, and lifestyle without infringing on others behaviors and lifestyle. Our forefathers opened the door too our right to higher more universal humanitarian rights and humanitarian way of life. Smudging the line between chuch and state is definately treason as well as a step backwards. We can govern ourselves... give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's...

[dbsoldguydavid]

Thank you! Someone who knows that seperation of church and state DOESN'T EXIST! It doesn't say anything in the constitution.

[rendao1977]

Article I

"Congress shall make NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

This means religion is not welcome as a basis for laws of our culture. We are a humanitarian, equality, reasoning society. Freedom to worship is a part of America. America is not a part of your religion... buddy! "An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against" James Madison... Go eat your one nation under god bullshit!

[ciarom23]

When the founding fathers created america, they did not want a certain religion to control the country. Instead they wanted religion to come in as a moral guide, not to banish it.

Separation of Church AND State, not separation of Church FROM STATE.

[rendao1977]

Welp evidence can be interpreted either way I guess. Bottom line is religion is a double edged sword. While they tend to develop a moral society, Muslims, Christians, and Jews tend to be intolerant to other religions and specific behaviors... In time humanity will out grow all three as we become more aware of our universe, just as the religions we now lump into paganism and mythology are. We have been advised to keep separation and you are to respect that if you consider yourself a patriot.

[rkzenrage]

@ciarom23 Some pretty fancy time-travel-mind-reading there... wow!

[rkzenrage]

You have not read it then.

[dbsoldguydavid]

I was not talking to you. Oh, by the way, your quotes are taken out of context...

[rkzenrage]

None of the quotes are taken out of contex in any way.

[dbsoldguydavid]

Read their entire quotes. You only posted half of them, if that.

[rkzenrage]

In no way does that relate to context.

By your reasoning the only way to quote a book in context is to reproduce the entire text. LOL... too funny.

[rkzenrage]

Are you implying that somewhere Thomas Jefferson said that the US should be a christian nation...perhaps Thomas Paine, any of the others?

Too funny!

[rendao1977]

LMFAO you want to preach about out of context?! Just head off to church some Sunday... btw no it wasn't taken out of context. Look into your reading disability/selectve interpretations.

[rkzenrage]

I have been to many churches... their entire gig is taking specific quotes out of context to further their control over the congregation.

[rkzenrage]

This video will be on the gochongo(dot)com separation of church and state video contest starting Jan 10th.

Please Vote for me!

Thanks to splaster for enrolling me!

rkzenrage

[nokriy312]

you took Luke 20:15 out of context.  It was talking about taxes, not separation of Church and State.

[rkzenrage]

Wow, you read Jeus' mind, amazing!

It was not just Luke20:15, try:

Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21 & Luke 20:25...

Nice try.

[nokriy312]

well if you want to play that way.... once again keep it in context.

Mk 12:14-15 "...is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not. Shall we give or shall we not give"

Mt 22:17 "is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar or not?".... Mt 22:19 "she me the tribute MONEY..."

Lk 20:22 "Is it lawful for us to give tribue unto Caesar, or no?"... 20:24 "She me a penny. Whose image and superscription hat it? They answered and said, Caesar's"

[nokriy312]

Every verse pointed out is in the context of talking about money and taxes, not separation of government and religion. I don't have to read Jesus' mind to figure that out, I just have to read his word.

[rkzenrage]

It's a good thing our founding fathers were more intellegent than he on this topic then, if you have such a narrow interpretation.

[nokriy312]

Psalms 22 (don't remember which verse), says Blessed is the nation who's God is the Lord. I think Jesus was very intelligent on Politics and Religion. Genesis 12 says God will make Abraham a BLESSED NATION. How is God supposed to do that if all of a sudden, he doesn't want to get involved?

And you can't say I have a narrow interpretation, because you can't take something out of its context to change its original meaning. That's illogical.

[rkzenrage]

Still reading Jesus's mind... fascinating.

Jesus contradicted everything he said and most of the commandments.

The basic fact is that the US model is best, a complete separation of church and state.

One's religion has no place in the public square.

Best for the public AND best for the church.

At least you have shown your true colors and we know you want a theocracy.

[Swa6543]

It's not enough for you Christians that you already have total and absolute religious freedom! But, You don't really believe in TRUE freedom. And you know why? Because true 'SECULAR' freedom protects everybody!! Not just Christian Americans, but homosexuals, atheists, other religions and every other group YOU MORAL POLICEMEN don't agree with!

[Swa6543]

You can spew out your bible-babble all you want! Our constitution is crystal clear on that wall of seperation, FUCK your 'Blessed Nation' - This is a 'free nation' (so far) and our founding fathers had enough foresight to try and ensure that we were free from religious tyranny!

[markotraco]

Well, in fact there is no wall of separation. If you think there is, you have not read the Constitution. Our Constitution is totally neutral on religion. Also, the 2nd amendment applies to the legislative branch only. Btw, I am not religious at all and I don't believe in god.

[markotraco]

I obviously meant 1st amendment, for all you folks that will nitpick about my mistake.

[Swa6543]

You mean read his 'MYTH!

[briankofke]

Good stuff. Keep it up. Thomas Paine said it best. Pass me the Ron Paul please.

[rkzenrage]

Ron Paul 08!!!

[iviewthetube]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks rk.

[jasonhoblin]

nice.

[Swa6543]

I don't think most Christians realize Thomas Jefferson was practically an atheist!

[rkzenrage]

I think he was a deist and pretty clear on that point, but did not like the "magic" of religion, true on that point.

[Swa6543]

Our founders knew that the 'magic' of religion had no place in our government, and these Christian fanatics that want to force their 'morality' into our political system piss me off to no end! People need to wake up to how dangerous this is!

[markotraco]

To me, it is just the same as any other people trying to force their morality on me. The environmentalists or folks that believe in a welfare state are just as bad, or sometimes worse that christian fanatics. Especially since christian fanatics don't try to steal your money as much as those in favor of a welfare state.

[gaybibleresearcher33]

what's wrong with trying to protect the environment? environmentalists often only ask people to make small changes such as switching light bulb types, or turning the thermostat down a few degrees.

[markotraco]

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Being wasteful is horrible and littering should be a jailable crime in my book. I usually follow any reasonable sounding suggestions, and my biggest charity is a wildlife org. So, I do what I can. But when I see people who seem to be doing it to get back at humans or hinder freedoms, rather than help the cause, red flags go up. Same as a religious fanatic.

[gaybibleresearcher33]

okay, it just looked like you were lumping all environmentalist in with those nutjobs, so i felt i had to say something.

[rkzenrage]

You mean the light bulbs full of mercury? Yeah, great for the environment!

LOL!

[markotraco]

Oh, well I didn't know that. Tell me about it. So you're saying that the things these new longer lasting and lower energy lightbulbs are made of actually outweigh the wastefullness of the old ones. I'm interested, explain it to me.

[rkzenrage]

Look it up. The halogen lights are full of mercury & unless you live in a major urban area (and are willing to travel then) there are not disposal areas for them, so they just go into landfills and the merc just goes into the aquifer or nearest water-source.

Stay green!

Last longer... kill more!

[docrufus]

Was thinking...

Indeed there is not a finer cultural/political expression put to paper than the U.S. Constitution.

Sometimes we get lucky- enlightened elites can get it right in principle- yet- perhaps the concept/practice of nationhood, economic power structures & elites controlling the masses is the next major hurdle for humanity- just a thought.

[rkzenrage]

This is why we are not a democracy (I don't know where that rumor came from) but a Constitutional Republic and need to remain so.

Democracy is mob rule and for insane people.

[docrufus]

Maybe because it's governmental 'representative democracy'.?

I often question the sanity of governmental democracy (mob rule?) as well. *~*

[Swa6543]

'I see this country moving towards a fascist state!' -Frank Zappa 1986.

[rkzenrage]

Oligarchy.

Pretty much the same thing.

[Swa6543]

The declaration and the constitution are greater documents than any biblical scripture! FREEDOM is more powerful than Religion. The statue of liberty as a symbol, is a greater incentive to the human race than any damn crucifix!!

[GypsyWytch]

Keep the shit seperate! Rock on.

[charlietcc]

Insofar as the concept of separation of church and state has any value in America, it finds its most meaningful expression not in any particular quote from any particular Founding Father, but in the Constitution which was the expressed will of <i>all</i> the Founding Fathers; and there was <i>zero</i> conflict between said expression and the placement of Roy's Rock in the Alabama courthouse. :)

[rkzenrage]

As long as you would feel the same way about a pedestal quoting the foundations of the Satanic Church in front of another judge's court.

[Swa6543]

Do you infer that it's just as out of place to have a monument to Satanism in front of a courthouse? You bet it is!..and equally ridiculous! However, Satanists have a right to put such a monument on THEIR CHURCH PROPERTY! In other words, keep these damn religions where they belong!!

[rkzenrage]

I agree, was trying to make a point.

[docrufus]

Ya- some choice quotes in there- nice vid.

[MaraNikki]

"Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right."—

I am going to remember that quote. Good video!

[bubbaj30]

Well done, my friend!

[efchellion69]

If there were a 6th star I'd give it 10!

[efchellion69]

OUTSTANDING!!! "FIVE STARS", raves Everett of efchellion69 channel!!

[rkzenrage]

Thanks, that is very kind of you. I'm going to watch your new one tonight.

[bendingnote]

sorry to bother you, but some guy called tmf886 internalized this clip into his favourite collection, probaly before he blocked me. could you say that bendingnote apoligizes for his radically rude behaviour and copy and paste this into a letter directed to tmf866:i posted some refinements, mostly concerning your thinking since i am the standard of all sophistication, they didn't come trough so i figured you blocked me in a frenzy, right?