Does Romans Five Destroy Calvinism? Dave Hunt and T.A. McMahon on Berean Call radio

[DLmadison100]

If I may attempt an answer here. Yes. God did so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son. But the same book, gospel of John, also records in 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Truly, were it not for the mercy and grace of God, none should be saved. But God has chosen and us, and drawn us to himself. The gift is to all but, we must be chosen of God to come to Him. We would all go our own way. (Rom. 3;10-18)

[CBALLEN]

So Universalism is true according to Dave,everyone is reconciled to Christ no matter what they believe.Romans 5:18 is always brought up,but why stop there,read 19 too Romans 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.So all who will be saved were once lost and not all will be saved but many.

[DLmadison100]

@CBALLEN No. Dave got that doctrine from Origen, an early Church writer and thinker. (Haven't you read, "There is nothing new under the sun."? Eccl. 1;9) Origen was not knowledgeable of all the scriptures though, and relied at least in part on his own ideas of "just restitution." Still, Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains." (See also !! Thess. 2;10-12)

[turtle4aire]

@turtle4aire More ! Think about it if he knows everything you will do in your life 500 yrs. before your born. He knows if you will choose him and just make it happen when he wants it to happen. There is no choice of anybody but the Lord Knows if you will choose him before your born. he just makes it happen when he wants it to happen !

Calvinism and Arminism is just a waist of time ! you could be reading your bible in that waisted time !

[DLmadison100]

Ephesians 1

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

[DLmadison100]

@CBALLEN Someone spamed your reply to my comment.

I am not sure what you mean... I have also read that some of the earliest copies of this epistle do not say "To the Ephesians." Wherefore, some scholars consider it likely to have been an encyclical letter to all the churches in Asia-minor. (a general epistle.) Regardless, the preserved letter is counted as scripture. It is, therefore, suitable for doctrine and instruction. God is unchanging: His word is not yea and nay but, Yes and, Amen!

[CBALLEN]

@DLmadison100 Eph 1 :1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

 To God’s holy people in Ephesus] the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Well,I just go by what's written in my Bible,but the key to who is being addressed is all the times that "we or us" is used,in other words Paul is speaking to believers about believers like Himself.

[DLmadison100]

@CBALLEN I most certainly agree. What we have in our Bibles is what God has given for us to know Him by; a guide to us in the way He would have us to go. It had seemed that you were (at first) saying the epistle was"exclusively to Ephesians;" (a position I would most certainly dispute, for the very reasoning you now give.) I am all for a right understanding of scripture. With so many denominations and cults, this obviously isn't so. How fortunate that God saves by faith and not merely knowledge.

[DLmadison100]

@turtle4aire It is written: Rev.13;8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."

Before you were born, before the foundation of the earth, God Chose; names were written in the book of life before Adam was created. This points to election. Also: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son..." The sovereignty of God.

[AxelsAlive95]

Now if Calvinists are right who is the "any" referring too? If its the elect, it makes no sense because they could never perish, they are predestined to heaven. If its the un-elect than that makes God a liar since he predestined them to hell. Now look at the end of the verse "but that all should come to repentance." Now wait a second Calvinist's don't have to repent they are predestined. So why is he willing that we come to repentance. Read Romans 10:9-10 and you will see. It is salvation

[DLmadison100]

@AxelsAlive95 It is open to all... sadly, were it not for the mercy and grace of God to save some, all flesh would perish. We are totally depraved and without a desire to come back to God. (Rom. 3;10-12 and, 9;29) He had to come to us. By hearing, the Holy Spirit brings conviction and His grace brings us to our knees before Him in repentance. It is all God and nothing of us. Thank you Jesus! (It would not be fair to leave Salvation in the hands of wretched sinners. We couldn't do it ourselves.)

[AxelsAlive95]

Where do you get the idea that when the Bible says "All" and "Whosoever" it is not talking about "All" or "Whosoever!" I find it especially ironic that I have never met a Calvinist who wasn't an "elect." It seems very convenient to me. The Bible clearly says that the only way to be saved is through belief. How can we then say that people are born to go to heaven, and others born to go to hell. The Bible says in II Peter 3:9 that God is not willing that any should perish.

[DLmadison100]

@AxelsAlive95 God is not willing that any should perish. We, left to ourselves, do not wish to turn to God and be saved. it is His working in us, by His word, that brings hope of pardon and conviction for sin.

I didn't make up God's plan. I do rejoice that He showed me mercy and gave me grace. Do not be angry with Calvanists. Neither be angry with Armenianists. Just be thankful that, when God Called, He enabled you to answer.

[PEDROCLASSIC]

who's the UNTO ALL? the unto all are those who are condemned because of sin. who are the condemned? all human being. JESUS IS LORD bro

[DLmadison100]

@PEDROCLASSIC Yes. Jesus is Lord. But for God's sovereignty, all flesh would perish.

Please, read Luke 14;16-24. We all have an excuse not to come to God. Maybe the loss of a loved one, maybe we want the lie of evolution and godlessness... what ever reason we use, we all reject God as Lord of our lives. How great is His love then that we, who wanted Him not at all should have such great love that He would send His on Son to suffer at our hands, that we, hearing that gospel message, might repent.

[NewDirection4us]

I have a question for you freewill thinking Arminians. In the gospel of John, Chap. 10, Jesus is talking to the Jews at the Temple when he says: "You believe not because you are not my sheep, as I have said to you. My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. He also says: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep". He doesn't say anything about giving his life for those who are NOT his sheep, only his sheep. He is very clear about it. What say you?

[DLmadison100]

@NewDirection4us We all as sheep have gone astray, but Paul also writes: "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

[RozyczkaProAna18]

i think i know where this idea comes from. cos if you read the bible its clear - some people (most) will go to hell. people are scared of the reality in the Gospel - that some will go to hell. and God predestined all that. people are scared cos they dont know if they will go to hell - because they dont see fruit or something and they dont see fruit cos theyre not saved or because they're confused. i dunno. i wish we'd stop reasoning so much and accept everything in the bible.& LOVE HATES EVIL!!!

[DLmadison100]

@RozyczkaProAna18 Reasoning out matters of faith is not a bad thing, if it is to gain greater understanding of God and His will. The Church's history is replete with strivings over interpretations and, what the purposes of God are. Much of it was vain, and not persued with love for the brethren. But, I don't think many serious Calvanists hold themselves aloft as privleged and special above all unsaved people. They ought to know that it was all God's working and choosing, not anything good in us.

[guitargriff]

Dr. Hunt, you would do yourself a service by trying to understand election in the light of the covenant rather than the other way around. From this clip it seems as though you do not understand the concept of federal headship. Calvinism is much more than just the 5 points, it is indeed, nothing more than consistent biblical Christianity. Try again.

[judeucristao]

God bless you Dave Hunt

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[ebsc]

sad to see how these two men jump from merely scratching the surface of these verses and chopping up the Bible in other places to attacking men like John MacArthur..CONTEXT!

[1tmoch]

That verse is not problematic, as if one followed the logic they presented consistently, then all people would be condemned and no people going to heaven. The point of the passage is to show that it was by "one" (or the first Adam) that death came, and is by "one" ( or the last Adam) that life comes. This passage is not discussing the who part.

[bigritchie]

Calvin burned his enemies at the stake and had them executed so he must be good right? right?

How long will people follow men and not follow Yeshua the Messiah? When scripture says the "law" was nailed to the cross, the word is DOGMA, MAN MADE RELIGION. He mailed all the dog and pony churches to the cross. You can sit around on your pews being warmed by the fires of hell and paganism, or you can get off your butts and DO WHAT HE SAYS, and follow him.

[DLmadison100]

@bigritchie Well, I'll need to look into that but, i do know that Queen Mary, the head of the Armenian sided Roman Catholic Church in England, had many Puritan Christians burned at the stake... Does this "shine" well for Armenianism?

[DLmadison100]

@bigritchie Really though, Jesus' didn't say you will know them by their doctrine. He said, "You will know a tree by it's fruit. In study of Church history, I found a Christian man, Atanasius, who was of the orthodox view of Christ as the second person of the Triune Godhead. This man was severely persecuted by the Arian sect, which resorted to many dirty tricks to discredit him in the Church. Later, it was the Orthodox sect using dirty tricks against the Arian sect.

Jesus said Love one another.

[DLmadison100]

@bigritchie Pharisees had the orthodox view of God, but still missed the message and sought to kill Jesus.

Whatsoever things you do, do them as unto Christ. Do this, and you will not hate your brother for a view you disagree with. (Calvinists and Armenians both preach the gospel of salvation to lost sinners.)

[clintjordan]

We don't know who God's elect are. Before the Apostle Paul was converted, what was he doing? Killing Christians. But yet, still, Paul was chosen among the elect.

[clintjordan]

You can read more about predestination in Romans 9, and Acts 4. It's not something that is just made up, as some would have you believe.

[NewDirection4us]

@PEDROCLASSIC God created the first humans, they sinned and brought condemnation upon all who followed. All are guilty, not innocent. God chose to save some and to allow the rest to perish in their sins. He didn't have to save any, but in mercy, He chose to save some and gives us the gift of faith. Not all p[eople are saved nor receive the gift so that is why some cannot believe the gospel. Jesus commanded us to preach to spread the gospel; we are a means towards the end.

[PEDROCLASSIC]

@NewDirection4us That is heresy. if God have chosen some to be saved and comdemns the rest to hell, what's the point of Preaching the Gospel? it didn't say preach the gospel to the saved did it? it said preach the gospel unto all. Hey brother there's no point in debating or arguing over this matter. there's really nothing i can do to be saved apart from God himself who became a man to die for the sins of the WORLD nor can i accept that i am the elect.

[NewDirection4us]

@PEDROCLASSIC the point of preaching the gospel is because Jesus commands us to.

We preach to everyone just as he did, but not all can hear it, many can't hear it as Jesus acknowledged when he said: but you believe not because you are not of my sheep". No the scriptures don't say to preach only to the saved; mainly because we cannot know who the saved are, only God knows. If Jesus died for the sins of everyone in the world then everyone in the world would be saved, right?

[DLmadison100]

@PEDROCLASSIC We preach so that those like us, who believe by hearing, may also hear and believe. This "foolishness" is God's wisdom and choosing. Jesus also said, "I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!" (Praise for Him) Even so, it is also written that: "the LORD is not restrained to save by many or by few." I Sam. 14;6. Preach or don't preach. God will send Jonah, or any like him He chooses.

If I am "Elect" unto God, it is His doing and, I humbly rejoice in His mercy.

[CBALLEN]

@DLmadison100 ' If I am "Elect" unto God, it is His doing and, I humbly rejoice in His mercy."

Amen.so many believe that Calvinists think they're the only ones saved,what they fail to understand is,anyone who believes the Gospel does so,because God has given them the NEW BIRTH,causing them to do something that the natural man is unable to do,Repent and BELIEVE.it's all been granted by God.

[PEDROCLASSIC]

@NewDirection4us it's really nobody's business and certainly not you if he predestined some and not the rest. that is his business. forget it bro. you and i are both sinners. God is merciful. stop promoting it. instead look at your own life. look at your own heart. let's see your life. how are you walking and living a christian life? you cant be out there telling people "hey God predestined me and not you".

[NewDirection4us]

@PEDROCLASSIC Sure it's my business and I don't need you to tell me otherwise. By the way, I never say who is chosen or not chosen, but I do say that unless atheists turn to God that they will die in their sins. Arminians are wrong on this doctrine of who chooses who, but as long as they have faith and believe then they are probably chosen and elect, and still saved.

[PEDROCLASSIC]

@leave it bro. it's all good. just move on now. God's message won't change. i'm still a sinner saved by GRACE. end of story.

[PEDROCLASSIC]

Hello brothers,

i have a friend who have shared and taught me about calvinism. i didn't know what calvinist was. i didnt wanna know. i just knew God's words and the bible until he said that people are TOTALLY DEPRAVED and therefore cannot and unable to chose God for salvation

[kjvonly01]

The more one researches Calvinism, the more blasphemous it becomes.

[Speegs23]

@kjvonly01 you must not be reading anything biblical then.

[Loonypics]

You have to understand that "Calvanists" Suffer from a collective ego problem - sad really -

The way I read scripture is that - self righteusness and pride are frowned on by God !

Think on you Calvies !

[jinkyfc]

As politically incorrect as ever my English brother :)

[LawrenceKennard]

@Loonypics "Think on you Calvies". LOL I'm going to plagerize you on that one. Great comment :)

[proffromgview]

@Loonypics I'm sure that all three of them will....

[MandoMohan]

Dave's a great teacher and sadly missed on radio this year. Thanks for this.

[jinkyfc]

thanks for your comment

i enjoy listening to the guy, he is always measured and sound doctrinally