dubified89 brings up an excellent point. Market freedom provides the maximum number of options, which understandably lends itself to a kind of individualism. Consumerist culture, however, is largely about conformity. What you're talking about--bombastic, histrionic, "Look at me, I'm a god unto myself, so f*** you!"--sounds like crude collectivism in individualistic clothing. I'd also note that one can be libertarian with respect to political economy and communitarian with respect to culture. :)
Individualism is a myth, because it assumes we live in a vacuum, and that our own choices affect our life the most. Both of those are false. Reality is a web of things and beings that affect other things and beings, and everything is relative to everything else. Nothing can just "be" by itself: it has to inter-exist as part of everything else. From the time we are born, circumstances and choices outside of our control form who we are, from developmental psychology to our day-to-day lives.
It's related to the draw towards reality TV (the most base form of 'entertainment' possible). It started with the existentialist artists and has simply devolved into a popular fad tending towards debasement. However, it's not in any way individualism. Thoreau was an individualist. Today's "individualist" is actually a collectivist with no true sense of self outside the consumerism that defines them. The proper individualists today are obscure and unknown, for sake of their intellectual survival.
It is trendy to be an Cynical non-conformist. There is something truly paradoxical about the herd mentality of internet "freethinkers." I wouldn't call them individualistic, though. I would call them simple-minded collectivists who fancy themselves as iconoclastic individualists -- it's the image that was sold to them.
One of the best breakdowns on this topic is Thomas Frank's 'One Market Under God' (Doubleday 2000). Or, even moreso, the Frank-edited collection of pieces from his journal The Baffler 'Commodify Your Dissent: Salvos from the Baffler' (Norton 1997).
Dude, everyone fucking says this. It's become such a cliche. 'Capitalism thrives on individualism', etc. No it doesn't. The kind of consumerism thrives on collectivism. You want to 'fit in'? You want to be cool? You want to be part of the group? You have to buy our product to attain that. The people you're describing on youtube, from my experience, typically have fake SOCIAL identities. They act a certain way in order to stand out, not in a truly individualistic way but in a way to get approval
from a segment the audience. They just want approval from someone, and so they act in ways that they think are cool and will stand out. It's a phony individualism. Everyone throws the term individualism in the mud, it's like a must if you're going to be considered an intellectual. But just cause capitalists claim their system is individualistic doesn't make it so, they also claim it's about 'free markets' but in practice it's often protectionist & reliant on subsidies. They also claim that the
wars are for defense, that's not true. So nothing they present is really what it is and it's the same with their philosophy on capitalism being representative of individualism. When in practice it subverts individualism. For example most people have to work a job in order to live where they can't just tell their boss whatever's on their mind.
This is a really good video, i agree with the points made but its worth pointing out its maybe a bias segment of society to be looking at and wont reflect the whole but then i often think perhaps it does and this is people with less games/masks to maintain.
However the point about ego and internal totalitarianism (totalitarianesk schemas) is very true, ive seen take freedom to be more free arguments over and over. To me the "rugged indv" is similar to the "we are all gods" shite new agey meme.
@SothisAmon Im in a different part of the world, social circle so things are obviously different; but when i see channels like "the bunker report" i have to laugh, theres a portion of americans building bunkers and stock piling ammo and food for a situation that would probably make that useless if it came about but i see that as part of the same "thing".
There are oricals in their lives who tell them what to do... but they are individuals... strong, free in thought! lulz.
I don't agree with this. I think should definately have the chance to state their views in whatever way possible. Maybe aethiests are swearing and talking loudly and seem arrogant to you but to me they are talking more sence than any religious videos I have watched on Youtube (which have zero substance). I think everyone SHOULD take pride in their beliefs- that is what Youtube is for after all. Telling people your opinion (as are you in this video- sounding MORE than a little "arrogant' too).
I don't agree with this. I think should definately have the chance to state their views in whatever way possible. Maybe aethiests are swearing and talking loudly and seem arrogant to you but to me they are talking more sence than any religious videos I have watched on Youtube (which have zero substance). I think everyone SHOULD take pride in their beliefs- that is what Youtube is for after all. Telling people your opinion (as are you in this video- sounding MORE than a little "arrogant' too).
This is what I felt instictively but could not verbalize it as well as you. I personally feel that foul language is not the only indication of cockiness. There are quite eloquent and glib people that have some substance going on in what they say but are still selling themselves to get Youtube dollars. I wil name names. Thunderf00t, Zomgitscriss, dprjones.
have watched a couple of your vids now...i have to say i am impressed by your passion and lack of pretense. please keep making videos - it is nice to stumble upon the occasional voice of reason in this sea of what you rightly call 'barbarism'.
Thanks for the recommendation, I really enjoyed this.
It's hard to be genuinely open minded & compassionate on YT. Unfortunately, people crave answers & loathe questions, esp. ?s which target thoughts/suppositions on which they want to "close the book."
I try, more & more, to approach problems not so much in their specific application but as emblems of trends in human behavior. Genuine compassion is difficult though. It will not make you friends & get you subs like being cocksure will.
As far as people pontificating about freedom, I'm concerned by how few people address the flip side of freedom, which is responsibility. Other factors can be brought in as well, like fairness. If your freedom impinges on someone else's, is it still ok?
But responsibility is not as sexy as freedom, so people just skip it and go to dessert. Unfortunately, we're seeing the fruits, sociologically speaking, of skipping dinner.
Maybe money adds to the equation aswell , but there's always been some form of ideology-selling etc. Because it's easier to control a society whos people hasn't seen their full potential.
This is how it's always has been... As far as the majority of people not learning and not making 'real' arguments, but instead take on a view without really looking and then shoot poo-poo around.
Just more information flooding now, faster & faster as time goes by, and a somewhat different ideology/dogma on top.
This video should be used as a reply to TAA latest video. Haha. I think Anton has a very real point here..consider how lately TAA has made 20 minute videos reviewing Transformers and GI-Joe. Even though he gave these movies bad reviews, he is still giving a big portion of his time over to these "commercial" movies..and that is all that commercial media asks of people. They either want us to love them or hate them. The one thing they do not want is indifference. Thus, TAA is their tool.
Dogmatic relativism...Yes...But some people here INSIST that it's objective TRUTH that he are she has found...So it's true on both ends of the spectrum, and equally unpalatable.
But "performative" Individualism?...Yes, exactly.
Btw I think your speaking rational sense into a hurricane of conformity, but I honestly wish you the best of luck.
When we killed God with the materialistic reductionism that plagues our current zeitgeist, the "forbidden" became all that's exciting.
"Fuck" has replaced "God" in the common vernacular. I see it as naive mental slaves parading as freethinkers.
All they are doing is rearranging their egos with the ideas of others to impress people. It's not about meaning, it's about posturing, and I'm speaking from personal experience. I've been just like that.
Ideology always drains, for ''it's own'' maintaining, the person holding it. Atleast if one's blind enough, limiting -your-self- to much to it's, in comparison, futile scope.
Excellent point, Anton. What you speak of is a kind of result of 'intellectual fetishism'- young people are conditioned to adopt an attitude toward intellectualism in ways which are pretentious. It is in vogue to be intelligent...so let's learn a little of the philosophical lexicon and pretend we are saying something profound.
For me, a person who has a penchant for Wittgenstein's analytical approach toward philosophy, it is painful to see so many people babbling so nonsensically.
i can see what your talking about, but not everyone whose yelling and throwin around attitude is some individualist trying to sell themselves, i know a few who are reacting out of the mass of trolls and negativity that are flowing towards them.
I think individualism is sold, yes, absolutely, but don't confuse the product with the actual thing. Lots of people want to buy an image, but I think you're trying to say that it's impossible to be an individual; that somehow all individualistic outspoken people who cuss and put on shows are fearful of being the mindless consumer that they are.
Mixing individualism and capitalism...hmm...you'll have to give a better explanation.
One might ask the question this way: What is the difference between entertainment and recreation and how is entertainment a modern cult of self-pandering to an immediate self?
Hm, well I think it's just that people are drawn to what catches their attention. Entertainers know this, that's the whole point of drama and audience. Youtube is an entertainment site; unfortunately, that leaves very few people who are here to engage in discussions that make them think etc.
Maybe what you mean is the fight club quote:
'single-serving friends'
How everything is less catered to sharing in a community, and more spread out because of modernity.
We all seek some sense of self though; an identity ... especially the young. Plus, people say stuff on the internet that they would never say 'in the flesh'.
wow. love the correlations. the "branding/marketing" of beliefs. and wonderful line about communication = vulnerability to humanity of others. big stuff.. yeah.. hahaha i think new media can still transform. the allure to the "barbaric" probably stems from the same reason why people still watch telenovelas (tv soaps) or wrestling matches. like an imitation of life, of what ifs, of courage... maybe these "characters" function like an addiction, just another thing you can hide from
On a more personal note, the internet isn't always a great place to expose "vulnerability". It's so common to get "trolled". "Drive by" slander is common.
When dealing with an anonymous public, one has to be on their toes. It can be nerve racking, especially to people with more naive sensibilities and general emotional immaturity. I'm mostly talking about the predominance of young people as users.
Just like in pop culture, say books, the best sellers generally aren't intellectually robust.
This is the new frontier. One needs to speak out to be heard. One needs to appeal to the lowest common denominator to get numbers.
Not everyone IS looking for something meaningful. Many, if not most, are strictly here as a diversion. It's the new social scene, which is dominated by ego and pretense.
The medium is the message. Television & radio set the standard of the shock jock & sensational drama. Why are we surprised when consumerism plays out in this new media and culture?
I find this video very interesting,you've to put in words what probably many of us have thought, but never managed to put a finger on what the problem is.And this mainly because the vloggers points seem so valid and because of black and white "the cold truth" image that they try to project, with no regard to shades.I see this in the software development community too where everyone has a groundbreaking idea which they [most often not] manage to realize, instead of collaborating for a common goal
dubified89 brings up an excellent point. Market freedom provides the maximum number of options, which understandably lends itself to a kind of individualism. Consumerist culture, however, is largely about conformity. What you're talking about--bombastic, histrionic, "Look at me, I'm a god unto myself, so f*** you!"--sounds like crude collectivism in individualistic clothing. I'd also note that one can be libertarian with respect to political economy and communitarian with respect to culture. :)
ElasticGiraffe 1 month ago
Individualism is a myth, because it assumes we live in a vacuum, and that our own choices affect our life the most. Both of those are false. Reality is a web of things and beings that affect other things and beings, and everything is relative to everything else. Nothing can just "be" by itself: it has to inter-exist as part of everything else. From the time we are born, circumstances and choices outside of our control form who we are, from developmental psychology to our day-to-day lives.
RipTheSystem33 1 month ago
It's related to the draw towards reality TV (the most base form of 'entertainment' possible). It started with the existentialist artists and has simply devolved into a popular fad tending towards debasement. However, it's not in any way individualism. Thoreau was an individualist. Today's "individualist" is actually a collectivist with no true sense of self outside the consumerism that defines them. The proper individualists today are obscure and unknown, for sake of their intellectual survival.
intricatic 3 months ago
Thank you for spending your time to give us your presentation. I really acquired some insights and some new things to thing about.
rodgerbroome 7 months ago
Individualism and Consumer Capitalism
From: Professoranton | Aug 28, 2009 | 1,416 views
You liked this video. We'll use this to improve your recommendations.
totemdynamics 8 months ago
The capitalist society is hollow.
visvaldisX 10 months ago
Agree with what you are saying.
DinaStrange 11 months ago
It is trendy to be an Cynical non-conformist. There is something truly paradoxical about the herd mentality of internet "freethinkers." I wouldn't call them individualistic, though. I would call them simple-minded collectivists who fancy themselves as iconoclastic individualists -- it's the image that was sold to them.
ElasticGiraffe 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Theamazingatheist = pig ignorant
Fyapowar 1 year ago
Theamazingatheist - pig ignorant
Fyapowar 1 year ago
One of the best breakdowns on this topic is Thomas Frank's 'One Market Under God' (Doubleday 2000). Or, even moreso, the Frank-edited collection of pieces from his journal The Baffler 'Commodify Your Dissent: Salvos from the Baffler' (Norton 1997).
bapyou 1 year ago
haha you say " my colleagues" that makes it sound very intellectual man. great job!
clifton062 1 year ago
Dude, everyone fucking says this. It's become such a cliche. 'Capitalism thrives on individualism', etc. No it doesn't. The kind of consumerism thrives on collectivism. You want to 'fit in'? You want to be cool? You want to be part of the group? You have to buy our product to attain that. The people you're describing on youtube, from my experience, typically have fake SOCIAL identities. They act a certain way in order to stand out, not in a truly individualistic way but in a way to get approval
dubified89 1 year ago 6
from a segment the audience. They just want approval from someone, and so they act in ways that they think are cool and will stand out. It's a phony individualism. Everyone throws the term individualism in the mud, it's like a must if you're going to be considered an intellectual. But just cause capitalists claim their system is individualistic doesn't make it so, they also claim it's about 'free markets' but in practice it's often protectionist & reliant on subsidies. They also claim that the
dubified89 1 year ago
wars are for defense, that's not true. So nothing they present is really what it is and it's the same with their philosophy on capitalism being representative of individualism. When in practice it subverts individualism. For example most people have to work a job in order to live where they can't just tell their boss whatever's on their mind.
dubified89 1 year ago
"...open vulnerability to one another*....lovely
GestaltTherapy1 1 year ago
i dislike americans for this reason you have articulated, not every american is like that but most seem to be
RadicalSyndicate 1 year ago
@RadicalSyndicate seems to discombobulated,
We will never see in him what his mama see.
8-P
SmartAMF 1 year ago
This is a really good video, i agree with the points made but its worth pointing out its maybe a bias segment of society to be looking at and wont reflect the whole but then i often think perhaps it does and this is people with less games/masks to maintain.
However the point about ego and internal totalitarianism (totalitarianesk schemas) is very true, ive seen take freedom to be more free arguments over and over. To me the "rugged indv" is similar to the "we are all gods" shite new agey meme.
SothisAmon 1 year ago
@SothisAmon Im in a different part of the world, social circle so things are obviously different; but when i see channels like "the bunker report" i have to laugh, theres a portion of americans building bunkers and stock piling ammo and food for a situation that would probably make that useless if it came about but i see that as part of the same "thing".
There are oricals in their lives who tell them what to do... but they are individuals... strong, free in thought! lulz.
SothisAmon 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I don't agree with this. I think should definately have the chance to state their views in whatever way possible. Maybe aethiests are swearing and talking loudly and seem arrogant to you but to me they are talking more sence than any religious videos I have watched on Youtube (which have zero substance). I think everyone SHOULD take pride in their beliefs- that is what Youtube is for after all. Telling people your opinion (as are you in this video- sounding MORE than a little "arrogant' too).
Catherine6821 1 year ago
I don't agree with this. I think should definately have the chance to state their views in whatever way possible. Maybe aethiests are swearing and talking loudly and seem arrogant to you but to me they are talking more sence than any religious videos I have watched on Youtube (which have zero substance). I think everyone SHOULD take pride in their beliefs- that is what Youtube is for after all. Telling people your opinion (as are you in this video- sounding MORE than a little "arrogant' too).
Catherine6821 1 year ago
it's about turning your self into an product.
Forkroute 1 year ago
This is what I felt instictively but could not verbalize it as well as you. I personally feel that foul language is not the only indication of cockiness. There are quite eloquent and glib people that have some substance going on in what they say but are still selling themselves to get Youtube dollars. I wil name names. Thunderf00t, Zomgitscriss, dprjones.
canaan1967 1 year ago
@SeriousJulian Thanks for the kind words. Please help others find my channel
Professoranton 1 year ago
are you referring to anyone who is a proponent of individualist ideas by virtue of the content of their propositions?
fede2 2 years ago
why do leftist all have the same accent. anton has the liberal accent an dmany liberals i know have the same accent.
greenghost2008 2 years ago
Who are you talking about in your video? Give me specific names so I can look at them.
TheHowardr 2 years ago
my vids usally are.
greenghost2008 2 years ago
I wouldn't characterize this behavior as barbarism. I would characterize it as puerility.
DanMorgan98 2 years ago
have watched a couple of your vids now...i have to say i am impressed by your passion and lack of pretense. please keep making videos - it is nice to stumble upon the occasional voice of reason in this sea of what you rightly call 'barbarism'.
InevitableComedown 2 years ago
Comment removed
Mephistophilus 2 years ago
Perhaps they are. That is fine. It depends upon what people want to be when they grow up.
Professoranton 2 years ago
Comment removed
Mephistophilus 2 years ago
Comment removed
Mephistophilus 2 years ago
STFU n00b! Richard Dawkins 4 lyfe! Ron Paul 2012!
Hehehe...Excellent thoughts. I agree.
silversoul7 2 years ago
Thanks for the recommendation, I really enjoyed this.
It's hard to be genuinely open minded & compassionate on YT. Unfortunately, people crave answers & loathe questions, esp. ?s which target thoughts/suppositions on which they want to "close the book."
I try, more & more, to approach problems not so much in their specific application but as emblems of trends in human behavior. Genuine compassion is difficult though. It will not make you friends & get you subs like being cocksure will.
FeelFreeToArgue 2 years ago
As far as people pontificating about freedom, I'm concerned by how few people address the flip side of freedom, which is responsibility. Other factors can be brought in as well, like fairness. If your freedom impinges on someone else's, is it still ok?
But responsibility is not as sexy as freedom, so people just skip it and go to dessert. Unfortunately, we're seeing the fruits, sociologically speaking, of skipping dinner.
FeelFreeToArgue 2 years ago
It seems that attitude/a big ego can go pretty far in swaying people, unfortunately...
I think it's important to have vulnerability for any real discussion to take place. An open attitude is really lacking on this website.
I think a lot of people are anti-growth or change, and their attitudes are definitely animalistic.
ninapoetry 2 years ago 3
well said.
alovelytime 2 years ago
Maybe money adds to the equation aswell , but there's always been some form of ideology-selling etc. Because it's easier to control a society whos people hasn't seen their full potential.
handianus 2 years ago
This is how it's always has been... As far as the majority of people not learning and not making 'real' arguments, but instead take on a view without really looking and then shoot poo-poo around.
Just more information flooding now, faster & faster as time goes by, and a somewhat different ideology/dogma on top.
Great video tough..
handianus 2 years ago
This video should be used as a reply to TAA latest video. Haha. I think Anton has a very real point here..consider how lately TAA has made 20 minute videos reviewing Transformers and GI-Joe. Even though he gave these movies bad reviews, he is still giving a big portion of his time over to these "commercial" movies..and that is all that commercial media asks of people. They either want us to love them or hate them. The one thing they do not want is indifference. Thus, TAA is their tool.
mathiasgandy 2 years ago
Dogmatic relativism...Yes...But some people here INSIST that it's objective TRUTH that he are she has found...So it's true on both ends of the spectrum, and equally unpalatable.
But "performative" Individualism?...Yes, exactly.
Btw I think your speaking rational sense into a hurricane of conformity, but I honestly wish you the best of luck.
Excellent video!
2bsirius 2 years ago
"You're speaking"...Oops!
2bsirius 2 years ago
When we killed God with the materialistic reductionism that plagues our current zeitgeist, the "forbidden" became all that's exciting.
"Fuck" has replaced "God" in the common vernacular. I see it as naive mental slaves parading as freethinkers.
All they are doing is rearranging their egos with the ideas of others to impress people. It's not about meaning, it's about posturing, and I'm speaking from personal experience. I've been just like that.
Right on Professor, thanks.
Monolith1618 2 years ago
excellent video.
individualism, of the type we see in the US, is a mental and emotional illness.
capitalism divides and conqures us down to the individual.
makes one think they must look out for #1.
alovelytime 2 years ago
Ideology always drains, for ''it's own'' maintaining, the person holding it. Atleast if one's blind enough, limiting -your-self- to much to it's, in comparison, futile scope.
handianus 2 years ago
its too bad great ideas become no more than "ideologies" for those who think too highly of their ownselves.
alovelytime 2 years ago
I think ideologies are useful, and great sometimes....
Tough it's only a fractal of human thought and all that can be made from it.
handianus 2 years ago
yes.
ideas about hoarding and sharing, and how they effect social animals sharing an ecosystem, are well beyond the fractal stage though.
we see the truths of these ideas, these behaviors, almost in their entirety, if not entirely.
alovelytime 2 years ago
Excellent point, Anton. What you speak of is a kind of result of 'intellectual fetishism'- young people are conditioned to adopt an attitude toward intellectualism in ways which are pretentious. It is in vogue to be intelligent...so let's learn a little of the philosophical lexicon and pretend we are saying something profound.
For me, a person who has a penchant for Wittgenstein's analytical approach toward philosophy, it is painful to see so many people babbling so nonsensically.
TheEpoche75 2 years ago
I am grateful for these videos - they are an asset to both myself and my students...thank you Corey.
barrydliss 2 years ago
i can see what your talking about, but not everyone whose yelling and throwin around attitude is some individualist trying to sell themselves, i know a few who are reacting out of the mass of trolls and negativity that are flowing towards them.
MeursaultBatemen 2 years ago
The AmazingAtheist... right? lol (fits the profile)
ShiroZuku 2 years ago
you could just say it, TAA...
MeursaultBatemen 2 years ago
I think individualism is sold, yes, absolutely, but don't confuse the product with the actual thing. Lots of people want to buy an image, but I think you're trying to say that it's impossible to be an individual; that somehow all individualistic outspoken people who cuss and put on shows are fearful of being the mindless consumer that they are.
Mixing individualism and capitalism...hmm...you'll have to give a better explanation.
CoffeesIsBack 2 years ago
read some books on the topic.
alovelytime 2 years ago
I'm cocky and barbaric. Also, I'm pretty loud. But I'm a lot of other things too. I do it to convey my emotion....
I have more problems with monotones, or soft spoken 'steady' people, than I do people who like to be vibrant/vulgar in expression.
I do know what you mean by the high sub rates, but you have to realize that has more to do with entertainment in spirited speech and outrageousness.
The biggest problem is that we aren't individuals BECAUSE of capitalism, and so we stress it more.
CoffeesIsBack 2 years ago
One might ask the question this way: What is the difference between entertainment and recreation and how is entertainment a modern cult of self-pandering to an immediate self?
Professoranton 2 years ago
Hm, well I think it's just that people are drawn to what catches their attention. Entertainers know this, that's the whole point of drama and audience. Youtube is an entertainment site; unfortunately, that leaves very few people who are here to engage in discussions that make them think etc.
Maybe what you mean is the fight club quote:
'single-serving friends'
How everything is less catered to sharing in a community, and more spread out because of modernity.
CoffeesIsBack 2 years ago
thank you thank you
sophia11roma 2 years ago
yes. the tribal mentality ...
We all seek some sense of self though; an identity ... especially the young. Plus, people say stuff on the internet that they would never say 'in the flesh'.
TWITfromURANUS 2 years ago
I concur
CammieSpectrum 2 years ago
I completely agree
peanarchist 2 years ago
wow. love the correlations. the "branding/marketing" of beliefs. and wonderful line about communication = vulnerability to humanity of others. big stuff.. yeah.. hahaha i think new media can still transform. the allure to the "barbaric" probably stems from the same reason why people still watch telenovelas (tv soaps) or wrestling matches. like an imitation of life, of what ifs, of courage... maybe these "characters" function like an addiction, just another thing you can hide from
katerinabonvora 2 years ago
On a more personal note, the internet isn't always a great place to expose "vulnerability". It's so common to get "trolled". "Drive by" slander is common.
When dealing with an anonymous public, one has to be on their toes. It can be nerve racking, especially to people with more naive sensibilities and general emotional immaturity. I'm mostly talking about the predominance of young people as users.
Just like in pop culture, say books, the best sellers generally aren't intellectually robust.
SBRslacker00 2 years ago
I agree.
This is the new frontier. One needs to speak out to be heard. One needs to appeal to the lowest common denominator to get numbers.
Not everyone IS looking for something meaningful. Many, if not most, are strictly here as a diversion. It's the new social scene, which is dominated by ego and pretense.
The medium is the message. Television & radio set the standard of the shock jock & sensational drama. Why are we surprised when consumerism plays out in this new media and culture?
SBRslacker00 2 years ago
I find this video very interesting,you've to put in words what probably many of us have thought, but never managed to put a finger on what the problem is.And this mainly because the vloggers points seem so valid and because of black and white "the cold truth" image that they try to project, with no regard to shades.I see this in the software development community too where everyone has a groundbreaking idea which they [most often not] manage to realize, instead of collaborating for a common goal
1PercentRDA 2 years ago