AA has worked like a charm for me.... got a sponsor right away took three weeks to five weeks to go through and learn all the steps and put program into action...never looked back....amazing changed my life have not had a drink in nine years....love it!!!
Penn and Teller are ENTERTAINERS whos job is to get rattings. Attacking AA is a great way to do that.I and many friends are sober with the help of AA. AA works just fine....
We need to stop talking in definitives regarding alcoholism . I have done the AA thing and without it i would not have been introduced to the philosophical ( morality ethics and empiricism ) approach to tackling whats wrong with me . That works for me - whatever AA offers does not . BUT THATS ME . I do not prescribe . Alcohol is the solution not the problem . If you solve the problem you will not need the solution if you dont you will . My problem with AA is that it does not seek to evolve
The NIAAA’s 2001–2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC), which surveyed 43,000 Americans, indicated that 75% of those who attained long-term sobriety after alcohol dependence did it without treatment of any kind or attending any kind of support group. Ruminate on that: 75%. No AA, no treatment at all.
AA is the most amazing recovery program!!! do what the bood says and your life will change for ever, no more cravings... a great positive out look on life and you can look any one in the face because youve come clean!!!! Free the mind and the rest will follow!!!! Thank God for AA and the amazing people who teach the program to lost alcohollics....x0
The good news is alcoholics have about %100 chance of full, complete and lasting recovery... the bad news is that they have to DO exactly what the book says to DO, & KEEP doing it. Not one single person, of thousands I've seen in meetings, who HAS done and CONTINUES to do what's in that book, have I seen relapse. Not one. But most ALL those I've seen who DON'T do what's in that book, keep drinking.
But most people I've seen in meetings that DON'T do what's in that book, I see relapse often.
@iamzeronothing said "But most ALL those I've seen who DON'T do what's in that book, keep drinking."
That's because you stay in AA. In SMARTRecovery, our rooms are full of ex-AA members who are happy and sober. You don't see us because we don't go to AA any more.
AA has a 95% dropout rate in the first year alone. That's according to their own Triennial Report statistics.
SMART has a much higher success rate, and people smile a lot more in our meetings.
There are thousands who come in because the court ordered them to, or just to dry out for a while. They should not be included in the stats, IMO. The stats should look at the people who have done all 12 steps. Those are the people who are serious about staying sober. My guess is that the rate would go up to somewhere around 50% if the survey was conducted properly. Yes, that is still a 50% failure rate, but I'll take 50% over a 100% chance that my life would be the way it was if I drank again.
@motolucien i agree, statistics should be taken by the amount of ppl that accually work the 12 steps, not just ppl ordered by the courts that rnt serious about staying sober or ppl that dont get a sponser, work steps etc and just relapse. i go to meetings where about 75% of the ppl have anywhere from 1-30 years, that alone should disprove this. but the sad reality is that alot of ppl do not recover, and that is due to the disease of addiction, not the incompitance of AA. it works if u work it
The AA stats come from a survey done the following way - At some meetings you get a coin for 90 days sober, 3 months sober, 6 months, etc. They did a survey of coins handed out at meeting in California. There were many 90 day coins handed out, fewer 6 month coins, even less 1 year coins, etc. Since AA is anonymous, no one knows why folks stopped coming back, Maybe they quit drinking and didn't need AA anymore. Maybe they re-lapsed. Anyway, that's where the 5% came from.
This is like saying some birds can fly, and some birds can't (like chickens). So let's go up in a plane and keep throwing chickens out until one flies.
AA works for SOME people, and has always maintained that. Yes, it IS one of the most successful methods out there, because no method gets more than 5%. So you can try therapy for alot of money, or, if you're broke and/or therapy doesn't work, you can try AA for free. Stay if you want, leave if you want.
Wonder how the statistics were gathered for the comparison group of people who "quit on their own"? And I wonder if there were controls for variables such as individuals who attended AA for the first time of their own accord vs. those who attended due to coercion by a loved one or were mandated by the courts?
It's meaningless. For many people, AA worked because they couldn't do it on their own. What people should be focusing on here is the dismal rate of recovery for ALL alcoholics, period.
@RacerExx You do know that the Penn and Teller act revolves around this fact, right? It shows the secrets of magic in an entertaining fashion and disproves mysticism at every turn. I'm guessing not, and that yours was a simple ad hominem attack.
Lol...its anonymous that is why their are no statistics.No one is asked to fill out forms or report back. Some people move on to rcover on their own or with friends,but many like me started the road to sobriety by attending free AA meetings.
If you are a homeless drunk just try getting into a rehab center. Wake up Penn and Teller.
Most rehabs just use AA, so they aren't very effective either. Most homeless drunks have been to AA. Yes, it's free, but you're getting what you pay for.
I agree! I will not go to meetings where the meeting is controlled by someone on steriods, as he cusses out a new comer in his high pitched voice. They might be sober, but as they say, "If you like what we have, and are willing to go thru any length to get it, Here are the steps we took" well I don't want they have, as a matter of fact, I do better just not drinking. Oh B T W. the guy who goes on a roid rage has 5 years "Sober" Wow. He probably got tired of being 86ed out of the bar!
A person will either decide to stop drinking or not. If your not truly wanting or willing to stop you will relapse, again and again. AA doesn't help you. You help you. And you can do it.
Penn, PLEASE don't comment on a subject like this. You are an extremely respected entertainer, and if a suffering alcoholic sees a video like this, they are likely to use it as an excuse to completely avoid AA. The 5% recovery rate is a joke--no stats person ever asked me if the program has worked for me (it has), and I don't think any people I know in AA have been asked either. The recovery rate is much higher, but the people gathering data hear only from the people who resent AA.
I never met so many human failings until I was forced to attend AA. Why do so many of my friends and family members have horrible histories with Alcohol, yet they grew up and learned to moderate? Why are so many in AA miserable, depressed, and dead? I can't count the number of relapses, suicides, etc, in the program. Any program or religion which tells you that you can't do anything and are nothing DO NOT WORK. You want to get better? Find the good things in yourself and learn to moderate.
Thank you AA for 6 yrs of sobriety and 6 yrs of sober motherhood. My little girls were 2 and 4 when I got sober. Thank God they haven't had to be raised with a drunk mom the way my older 2 did. I knew I would die drinking-just like my grandmother. Never in my life did I think I'd be able to stay sober. Thank God for AA. I've been given a new life. I found God through the 12 steps. How absolutely amazing. There's no high like the Most High. Yes-I mean Jesus- bet that makes you mad too!
This is true stuff. Notice the number of 1 day chips they give out compared with the number of 1 year chips. AA doesn't work for the vast majority of people because faith healing doesn't work.
I think he was pissed at the time he was saying IT WORKS with that mad, verging on violence, look in his somewhat demented eyes. Did he finish up in a secure institution?
@travillinman321 And you think our little 3 dimensional view (science, etc.) of the universe is sufficient? cmon man...we havent even seen all of our own oceans! science is small minded...Ill take my reality over scientific proof any day of the week.
@HermesvV Here's the deal, if science is sufficient for you, supplies all of your answers and gives you what you need...then that is great. I am happy for you, and I believe you. It is just not enough for me. Science is a beautiful thing. Beautiful. It just isnt enough...for me. You call me ignorant. I call you small-minded. What are we left with? "Mines bigger than yours?" Cmon man. I have found a purpose in life that provides me with everything I need. Is that not enough?
@jamenstep1 I am not afraid of not knowing. I realize that science does not have all the answers. It is sometimes inaccurate, but it is none the less constantly improving. Inaccuracies are improved upon, contradtions and holes are worked at. You call me small minded bc you assume that I think that science provides us with all the answers when I clearly do not nor does any other scientist. It is perfectly fine that you have found such a purpose as long as it is not destructive.
@HermesvV And you call me ignorant bc you assume I think I have all the answers and there is no need for scientific study or an evolving understanding of our immediate surroundings. That is not true. Again, science is beautiful...necessary..but for me, not enough for what Im looking for. If my purpose...of being a good father, a good husband, a good citizen, friend, brother..is in any way destructive...I am dumbfounded how that is. And the results of science...non destructive?
@jamenstep1 No i call u ignorant bc u think that I or any other scientist believes that science has all the answers that is why I called u ignorant and i was not calling ur purpose destructive it was a mere qualification. No one said that those purposes were destructive. And like i said no one is saying science is everything becuase there is a seemingly infinite amount of things taht we just dont know
@HermesvV And it is those infinite amount of things that we dont know, that science cannot explain, that I seek through my own spiritual journey. That is a first order experience that cannot be explained through emperical studies or scientific experiments. And it is personal. Indispensable...cannot be given away. And while I view science as apart of that experience, I seek more, through trial and error, kind of like...scientists. Maybe we are not so different after all.
@HermesvV And the conception that we view AA is an end all, be all, is erroneous. AA is kind of like a jumping off point...some of us grow into buhddists, some catholic, some purely spiritual, and some even into scientists. We start from the ground and grow into ourselves through the principals of the program. Treating others right and learning....forever the student. It has been the single most profound experience of my life.
@HermesvV And if AA has given me an opportunity to seek that....who are you to say it is a falsehood or and rip-off? Do you know? Have you experienced it in the first order? Then the ignorance, my friend, seems abundant. And does it really matter? Dude, I am happy. Productive. I have a wonderful life...all because of this connection. If that is not your road...then that is not your road. But it is mine. And I will not apologize for that.
@travellinman321 And I want no friggin part of your "scientific" treatment. lol. what fun is there in that? Back-door religon? Travel your road. I will travel mine....and I can almost guarrantee I smile much more. Hope to see you on this road one day.
@travellinman321 A very wise man said, "I believe in all roads to God." This is our road. Should you not believe in this road....the insignificance of your belief cannot be overstated. It has worked, for millions. It has worked for me. Given my children their father back, my wife her husband back, and many people a reprieve from my chaos. And, spiritual is in no way "beyond myself". Insane. If that were true, that would mean that I am no part of God, which I dont believe, I KNOW is false.
@travellinman321 I guess I dont understand this movement against it. It is working for lots of people. If someone doesnt like it, dont go. Changing our behavior for the better is the spiritual aspect. We try to develop a st of spiritual principals to live by. A lot of us did not have this at first, or some just lost it. It's not about religion. It's about being honest, accountable to something, willing to try new things and take direction.
@travellinman321 AA has nothing to do with the court making people attend. They have no money for support. The money collected pays rent for meeting space, buys literature, puts together conventions and so on. No one is profiting financially from AA. It works for the people it works for. Who cares? The courts and local treatment centers recognize how effective a 12 step program is, and use it.
AA doesnt have any expenses for these idiots. AA also has 12 traditions. tradition 7, aa ought to be fully self-supportive, declining outside contributions. If the court makes someone go, aa does not benefit financially. The are no dues or fees. A basket is passed around at the end, and you can put a buck in if you want. No one gives you any shit, or even notices if you dont put in a buck. The money pays rent for the space, buys more literature etc.. No one profits financially from aa.
Why AA doesn't work for over 97% of people who join ? Because its the 3 percent that have truly hit bottom and work the program Its the 97 that are usually doing it for the court or someone they love . 97 percent dont have open minds and still have the house and 2 cars in the garage and have no clue what hitting bottom is When down on ur knees because u have no other option you have no where else to turn too those are the 3 percent the 3 % at the meetings i go to are more like 60 % that stay
@TheMarkTheShark86 Most of the time people are court-ordered or forced into it to complete their treatment program. It's a cult, and brought me nothing but grief!
@TheMarkTheShark86 Regardless of the specific percentage, and your bizarre rationalization for how low it is, explain why the recovery rate for people not even in the program is the exact same.
aa is not some huge corporation, i can start a meeting on my front lawn and take that survey. i wish these critics would offer an alternative rather than just criticism, and aa is about recovering along spiritual lines, it will work for some, others it may not work for. i think the fact that courts order people to attend is kinda messed up, but there arent many other FREE alternative programs, and just because a court is ordering you to attend does not mean you have the desire to stay sober.
@nogripwantsurebabies Christianity is also not some huge corporation, but it doesn't mean it's not a cancer. You're right, just because a court is ordering you to AA doesn't mean you're motivated. It DOES mean that it's violating your rights. Here's a free alternative program that works at exactly the same rate: nothing at all. Just think about that for a minute. Doing nothing at all as the exact same success rate as aa.
Glad that big stupid fat bastard knows nothing - he was kicked out Of AA because he had little male men addiction -AA works - that guy is a goof just lol at him - un treachable
AA is a good social group and can give you things to do other than drink. that's a good thing if you've forgotten how to live without drinkin'. But as for a higher power helping you? Probably many people have a misconception that God will intervene in your life if you ask hard enough. Life is just difficult. If you don't like AA, don't go.
Well, you wouldn't argue with a big loud scary bastard like Gary Busey, would you? Yes, whatever you say, Gary, it works, it works!! Doesn't sound like it, but hey! There you are!
god god god higher power higher power god god bait switch bait switch bait switch do good regret do good service service do good regret and hate your former life, then do good, regret, hmm.... kinda like being a cathlolic? lol guilt, remorse, repent!
I can't believe we are still sending court ordered alcohol offenders to this cult for recovery. But I guess the reason is because not only is there no cost for recovering the offender but it's almost gaurenteed the offender will relapse in this program and commit more alcohol related crime which generates money for the system.
@aruble1 if that is what you really think then you would be wrong. No criminals, ppl genuinely recovered from addiction then no need for court systems or judges. AA supports the court systems with it's 5% successful recovery rate. Wake up. AA is a cult doing nothing but perpetuating narcicism and keeping people unhealed from what drove them to CHOOSE drinking in the first place.
@IdahoAngler2 On the contrary, I am very much in touch with what is going on with AA and after years of buying into this being the only help for family members sobriety and healing I see it for what it is - a sham. If you can't even take a momemt to question every AA belief that you hold dear then you are mind controlled and the PROGRAM has done it's job in programming you. Congrats.
Hey, Penn, I caught your stint with Kim Johnson on "Dancing with the Stars." Talk about things that don't work. That is your dancing, dude. That poor babe, Kim Johnson, would have had more success dancing with a water buffalo.
The multi billion dollar treatment industry has to justify employing fuckwits that could do nothing else for a living . The vast majority of which are affiliated with 12 step programs. The courts like it this way . Dr Bob was restored ( returned to a previous capacity) and went on treat alcoholics free of charge his remaining years. His counterpart became a millionaire and frontman for the cult. Could it be as easy as the disease ran its couse and did not kill me ? I will settle for dry drunk.
technically you're right since the 12 steps of AA are translated by bill wilson from the king james bible. the path you've chosen to provide for you and your family is a facade too. or perhaps that presumption by me would be absurd based on the fact that i dont know anything about you. perhaps me judging your life would also be absurd since i dont even know you. moreover, it would be ludicrous for me to think i know anything about you and how you live your life.
penn and teller are fools, talking about something they know nothing about and have no personal life experience with. justifies AA's expenses!!!??? there are no expenses you fucking idiots. you have no clue. what they dont know to explain is that the 5% that are white knuckling it have no change in their life. the 5% that stay sober in AA, well our lives change for the better, we learn how to become better human beings. this video should be deleted burned and then buried under hitler's dog
@MrMZaccone yes, extremely hard to become a better human being if one were to give up rational thought. thank goodness i have learned how to consciously settle my mind and think rationally by what i have learned in AA. now on the other hand, there are a myriad of paths in life to take, whether it be philosophical, metaphysical, or spiritual, that have very effective ways to learn how to think more clearly or more rationally. it just so happens i am a drunk and AA is the path i use
@Taxi502 "learned how to consciously settle my mind and think rationally by what i have learned in AA" ... Not possible. Actually, I bet AA is not the path you use regardless of what you claim. The path you've chosen lies elsewhere and AA is a facade.
In AA we don't pull people off barstools. You wanna drink? BFD, that's your business. But, If you really want to STAY sober for good and all, you DO the steps. Don't want to stay sober? Great, go back out and keep digging.
I'm a Penn and Teller fan but this disappointed me because alcoholics, at least that 5% of of us need group support. It just sounds like Penn and Teller have never dealt with addiction themselves and they are lucky. But their investigation comes off arrogant and contrite. People don't go to AA to be a part of a religion - they go there to TRY to become sober and if they succeed then they are better off. Getting sober on ones own by sheer will power is not easy and seldom accomplished. Cheers
what is wrong with you people? do you know what a higher learning is? i guess not!! if it helps people then where is the wrong doing? you should never condemn something you do not understand! and especially because you failed to understand it, you try to make it so others dont get the help they seek, need or deserve! again i ask "what the hell is wrong with you people"? the AA program has "SAVED MY LIFE" and a number of my friends lives too! PEOPLE SHOULD THINK BEFORE THEY ACT! THIS PROVES IT
AA is an option people have and it's worked for millions and for millions it hasn't worked. The same can be said for going it on your own, using groups, using therapists, using church... whatever.
I can vouch for AA. I've been clean and sober for 15 years.
It's an option. You don't like that option, choose another.
@Clemburke1111 Go to any AA meeting in your area. Then you will have proof. There are always 5-50 people in there with YEARS of sobriety, depending on how big the AA meeting is. It's kind of hard to get accurate stats from a place that is anonymous.
@Clemburke1111 You are either A) someone that was unable to get sober from AA because you were unwilling or B) just someone who likes to start arguments on the internet. Either way I don't really care. You are miserable and I hope life gets better for you. You can have your opinion, I've been in AA long enough to know what the facts are. I think a lot of the principles are bull shit. I can agree with some of that, but I can think of 100 people within my small town who have over 5 year.
@TheRoyal1990 I have not had a drink since august 15th of 1990 and the only thing I had to do was find out why I started ,and to do so one may need to seek a therapist as I did. I love life and have a happy family now and every day is far better,,,yep you drank the cool-aid. your comments are of misery.
@217789jimbo Trust me I do not miss drinking one bit, I am a runner, travel all over the world and am a speaker for gay rights,,I have too much ging for me,,besids is messes up your look,,and I am smokin hot...lol
people who need a hospital and nurses and all this care and support just to stop drinking or taking drugs are WIMPS ! wimps who cry every time life gets hard,
do me a favor and kill your self's . wimps are not wanted
it works if you work it... is it better to take positive action? is it better to think of helping others before helping yourself? or should we all play god and try to run the world to our own advantage? i will take aa....
it is called anonymity you idiot... it is impossible to do an actual survey that is accurate. It's none of your fucking business. What percentage of prisoners are alcoholics. Mind your own business dumbass.
Guess you better not piss Penn and Teller off. AA does not require outside support (financial or otherwise) as he suggested in his attack (err I mean investigative journalism).....this story had no facts. He could come to any open keynote speech at a convention, and see the sobriety countdown. We do not know about those who do not keep coming back.
I don't drink this kool-aid either. 5% success is 5% success(5% more than before,...). Success is a very subjective matter anyway. Of estimated(1993~97 figures) 3.5 million people annually at 96,000 locations is still a big number 175,000 thousand less drunk drivers and so many other implications to families and societies. What statistics exist for people who succeed(define success? Abstinence, controlled drinking?) on their own or via other methods?
Why not just say "I hate this God stuff and court referrals are a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state?" Why go into all this BS that can't be proven one way or another?
If you want to try AA, try AA. If you don't want to try AA, don't. Life is not so complicated. Penn and Teller are completely disingenuous and cynically evangelical here.
AA doesn't monitor people. There are no membership roles, follow up, counselors, bureaucracy or monitors, like the Methodists or Treatment Centers. The statistics are simply not knowable. Anyone that claims to know, including AA, is full of crap. That includes the evangelical atheists that are supposedly "debunking" AA claims. They have no clue. They just hate the mention of God in AA literature and the Courts mandating attendance. With the former, I completely agree. It's bullshit.
I have always heard that it was 1/20 which and this small amount includes a population that is either too old to drink or on so many pharm. prescribed from doctors that there really is nothing. Also, AA is on the way out due to so many cross addicted folks.
Okay, whoever is interested in AA recovery rates should realize that the triennial survey chart shows a 26% retention rate. Not 5% as is commonly reported.
It's an easy mistake to make but the percentage of alcoholics with between 0-1 months is 19%. Not 100%.
My friend Hammersly1967 and I had a pretty thourough discussion which we have agreed to delet because of our mutual insults.
But trust us. The 5% from this chart result is just an internet myth.
The part of the graph would have to be FOUR TIMES SMALLER with a ridiculous superfluous virtually vertical line intersecting with the 100% mark on the % axis - or the graph would have to sprawl over FOUR pages.
It's called pragmatism and presentation...
Happens ALL the time when presenting social research data.
I think that it's an obvious approach to present this way dum-dum...
The base that we are coming off is 19% of the first year members going down to 5% of first year members in the last month of that first year. 5 /19 = 0.2631 or roughly 26%.
I read the chart incorrectly.
(It's NO excuse, but the line graph does seem misleading. Wouldn't it be better set out as a bar graph? Many AA members are also under the misconception that the data shows a 5% efficacy.)
I apologise for being rude, arrogant, ignorant and insulting...
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AA has worked like a charm for me.... got a sponsor right away took three weeks to five weeks to go through and learn all the steps and put program into action...never looked back....amazing changed my life have not had a drink in nine years....love it!!!
donlapcam 2 months ago
Penn and Teller are ENTERTAINERS whos job is to get rattings. Attacking AA is a great way to do that.I and many friends are sober with the help of AA. AA works just fine....
curio1020 2 months ago
We need to stop talking in definitives regarding alcoholism . I have done the AA thing and without it i would not have been introduced to the philosophical ( morality ethics and empiricism ) approach to tackling whats wrong with me . That works for me - whatever AA offers does not . BUT THATS ME . I do not prescribe . Alcohol is the solution not the problem . If you solve the problem you will not need the solution if you dont you will . My problem with AA is that it does not seek to evolve
3seanp 3 months ago
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One year sober and never went to a single AA meeting
twoxland 3 months ago
The NIAAA’s 2001–2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC), which surveyed 43,000 Americans, indicated that 75% of those who attained long-term sobriety after alcohol dependence did it without treatment of any kind or attending any kind of support group. Ruminate on that: 75%. No AA, no treatment at all.
BlatzBeer 3 months ago
Moderation people, solves everything
SuckMyRightToe 3 months ago
I succeeded by getting OUT of AA. Three years without a drink.
ndrthrdr1 3 months ago 5
AA is the most amazing recovery program!!! do what the bood says and your life will change for ever, no more cravings... a great positive out look on life and you can look any one in the face because youve come clean!!!! Free the mind and the rest will follow!!!! Thank God for AA and the amazing people who teach the program to lost alcohollics....x0
donlapcam 3 months ago
100% if you do the work and stay out of your self become unselfish
TheDonny2 3 months ago
Comment removed
ndrthrdr1 3 months ago
The good news is alcoholics have about %100 chance of full, complete and lasting recovery... the bad news is that they have to DO exactly what the book says to DO, & KEEP doing it. Not one single person, of thousands I've seen in meetings, who HAS done and CONTINUES to do what's in that book, have I seen relapse. Not one. But most ALL those I've seen who DON'T do what's in that book, keep drinking.
But most people I've seen in meetings that DON'T do what's in that book, I see relapse often.
iamzeronothing 3 months ago
@iamzeronothing said "But most ALL those I've seen who DON'T do what's in that book, keep drinking."
That's because you stay in AA. In SMARTRecovery, our rooms are full of ex-AA members who are happy and sober. You don't see us because we don't go to AA any more.
AA has a 95% dropout rate in the first year alone. That's according to their own Triennial Report statistics.
SMART has a much higher success rate, and people smile a lot more in our meetings.
ndrthrdr1 3 months ago 3
AA is just another way to sell the god delusion. The courts should not be pushing it, nor should taxpayers be funding it.
FlyingPinkUnicorn 3 months ago
There are thousands who come in because the court ordered them to, or just to dry out for a while. They should not be included in the stats, IMO. The stats should look at the people who have done all 12 steps. Those are the people who are serious about staying sober. My guess is that the rate would go up to somewhere around 50% if the survey was conducted properly. Yes, that is still a 50% failure rate, but I'll take 50% over a 100% chance that my life would be the way it was if I drank again.
motolucien 4 months ago
@motolucien i agree, statistics should be taken by the amount of ppl that accually work the 12 steps, not just ppl ordered by the courts that rnt serious about staying sober or ppl that dont get a sponser, work steps etc and just relapse. i go to meetings where about 75% of the ppl have anywhere from 1-30 years, that alone should disprove this. but the sad reality is that alot of ppl do not recover, and that is due to the disease of addiction, not the incompitance of AA. it works if u work it
quaffed156156 3 months ago
5% recover in AA + 5% recover on their own = 10%
(if you believe this interpretation of the stats)
that's 'horses for courses' - not a recommendation for either approach
nogthedervish 4 months ago
these guys just prove how dumb this world is and close minded,dont talk about AA untill you been there jack asses stats dont mean shit.
DissaplineMuizk 4 months ago
The AA stats come from a survey done the following way - At some meetings you get a coin for 90 days sober, 3 months sober, 6 months, etc. They did a survey of coins handed out at meeting in California. There were many 90 day coins handed out, fewer 6 month coins, even less 1 year coins, etc. Since AA is anonymous, no one knows why folks stopped coming back, Maybe they quit drinking and didn't need AA anymore. Maybe they re-lapsed. Anyway, that's where the 5% came from.
xochosinkox 5 months ago
This is like saying some birds can fly, and some birds can't (like chickens). So let's go up in a plane and keep throwing chickens out until one flies.
AA works for SOME people, and has always maintained that. Yes, it IS one of the most successful methods out there, because no method gets more than 5%. So you can try therapy for alot of money, or, if you're broke and/or therapy doesn't work, you can try AA for free. Stay if you want, leave if you want.
xochosinkox 5 months ago
Wonder how the statistics were gathered for the comparison group of people who "quit on their own"? And I wonder if there were controls for variables such as individuals who attended AA for the first time of their own accord vs. those who attended due to coercion by a loved one or were mandated by the courts?
It's meaningless. For many people, AA worked because they couldn't do it on their own. What people should be focusing on here is the dismal rate of recovery for ALL alcoholics, period.
drkatel 6 months ago
You know what's bullshit? Magic.
RacerExx 6 months ago
@RacerExx You do know that the Penn and Teller act revolves around this fact, right? It shows the secrets of magic in an entertaining fashion and disproves mysticism at every turn. I'm guessing not, and that yours was a simple ad hominem attack.
OtakuStand 5 months ago
Lol...its anonymous that is why their are no statistics.No one is asked to fill out forms or report back. Some people move on to rcover on their own or with friends,but many like me started the road to sobriety by attending free AA meetings.
If you are a homeless drunk just try getting into a rehab center. Wake up Penn and Teller.
timrscott 6 months ago
@timrscott
Most rehabs just use AA, so they aren't very effective either. Most homeless drunks have been to AA. Yes, it's free, but you're getting what you pay for.
TheSinisterKitty 6 months ago
I agree! I will not go to meetings where the meeting is controlled by someone on steriods, as he cusses out a new comer in his high pitched voice. They might be sober, but as they say, "If you like what we have, and are willing to go thru any length to get it, Here are the steps we took" well I don't want they have, as a matter of fact, I do better just not drinking. Oh B T W. the guy who goes on a roid rage has 5 years "Sober" Wow. He probably got tired of being 86ed out of the bar!
Dannyrerun 6 months ago
A person will either decide to stop drinking or not. If your not truly wanting or willing to stop you will relapse, again and again. AA doesn't help you. You help you. And you can do it.
screechymon 6 months ago
Penn, PLEASE don't comment on a subject like this. You are an extremely respected entertainer, and if a suffering alcoholic sees a video like this, they are likely to use it as an excuse to completely avoid AA. The 5% recovery rate is a joke--no stats person ever asked me if the program has worked for me (it has), and I don't think any people I know in AA have been asked either. The recovery rate is much higher, but the people gathering data hear only from the people who resent AA.
jwalsh671 6 months ago
I never met so many human failings until I was forced to attend AA. Why do so many of my friends and family members have horrible histories with Alcohol, yet they grew up and learned to moderate? Why are so many in AA miserable, depressed, and dead? I can't count the number of relapses, suicides, etc, in the program. Any program or religion which tells you that you can't do anything and are nothing DO NOT WORK. You want to get better? Find the good things in yourself and learn to moderate.
genxvoice24 7 months ago
Thank you AA for 6 yrs of sobriety and 6 yrs of sober motherhood. My little girls were 2 and 4 when I got sober. Thank God they haven't had to be raised with a drunk mom the way my older 2 did. I knew I would die drinking-just like my grandmother. Never in my life did I think I'd be able to stay sober. Thank God for AA. I've been given a new life. I found God through the 12 steps. How absolutely amazing. There's no high like the Most High. Yes-I mean Jesus- bet that makes you mad too!
tami4497 7 months ago
This is true stuff. Notice the number of 1 day chips they give out compared with the number of 1 year chips. AA doesn't work for the vast majority of people because faith healing doesn't work.
ndrthrdr1 7 months ago
I think he was pissed at the time he was saying IT WORKS with that mad, verging on violence, look in his somewhat demented eyes. Did he finish up in a secure institution?
gordbard52 7 months ago
Yeah Gary, I can see in your eyes and hear in your voice that it REALLY WORKS!!! DON'T FUCKING ARGUE WITH ME!!!
gordbard52 7 months ago
@travillinman321 And you think our little 3 dimensional view (science, etc.) of the universe is sufficient? cmon man...we havent even seen all of our own oceans! science is small minded...Ill take my reality over scientific proof any day of the week.
jamenstep1 8 months ago
@jamenstep1 i have to laugh...really hard at ur ignorance.
HermesvV 8 months ago
@HermesvV Here's the deal, if science is sufficient for you, supplies all of your answers and gives you what you need...then that is great. I am happy for you, and I believe you. It is just not enough for me. Science is a beautiful thing. Beautiful. It just isnt enough...for me. You call me ignorant. I call you small-minded. What are we left with? "Mines bigger than yours?" Cmon man. I have found a purpose in life that provides me with everything I need. Is that not enough?
jamenstep1 8 months ago
@jamenstep1 I am not afraid of not knowing. I realize that science does not have all the answers. It is sometimes inaccurate, but it is none the less constantly improving. Inaccuracies are improved upon, contradtions and holes are worked at. You call me small minded bc you assume that I think that science provides us with all the answers when I clearly do not nor does any other scientist. It is perfectly fine that you have found such a purpose as long as it is not destructive.
HermesvV 8 months ago
@HermesvV And you call me ignorant bc you assume I think I have all the answers and there is no need for scientific study or an evolving understanding of our immediate surroundings. That is not true. Again, science is beautiful...necessary..but for me, not enough for what Im looking for. If my purpose...of being a good father, a good husband, a good citizen, friend, brother..is in any way destructive...I am dumbfounded how that is. And the results of science...non destructive?
jamenstep1 8 months ago
@jamenstep1 No i call u ignorant bc u think that I or any other scientist believes that science has all the answers that is why I called u ignorant and i was not calling ur purpose destructive it was a mere qualification. No one said that those purposes were destructive. And like i said no one is saying science is everything becuase there is a seemingly infinite amount of things taht we just dont know
HermesvV 8 months ago
@HermesvV And it is those infinite amount of things that we dont know, that science cannot explain, that I seek through my own spiritual journey. That is a first order experience that cannot be explained through emperical studies or scientific experiments. And it is personal. Indispensable...cannot be given away. And while I view science as apart of that experience, I seek more, through trial and error, kind of like...scientists. Maybe we are not so different after all.
jamenstep1 8 months ago
@HermesvV And the conception that we view AA is an end all, be all, is erroneous. AA is kind of like a jumping off point...some of us grow into buhddists, some catholic, some purely spiritual, and some even into scientists. We start from the ground and grow into ourselves through the principals of the program. Treating others right and learning....forever the student. It has been the single most profound experience of my life.
jamenstep1 8 months ago
@HermesvV And if AA has given me an opportunity to seek that....who are you to say it is a falsehood or and rip-off? Do you know? Have you experienced it in the first order? Then the ignorance, my friend, seems abundant. And does it really matter? Dude, I am happy. Productive. I have a wonderful life...all because of this connection. If that is not your road...then that is not your road. But it is mine. And I will not apologize for that.
jamenstep1 8 months ago
@travellinman321 And I want no friggin part of your "scientific" treatment. lol. what fun is there in that? Back-door religon? Travel your road. I will travel mine....and I can almost guarrantee I smile much more. Hope to see you on this road one day.
jamenstep1 8 months ago
@travellinman321 A very wise man said, "I believe in all roads to God." This is our road. Should you not believe in this road....the insignificance of your belief cannot be overstated. It has worked, for millions. It has worked for me. Given my children their father back, my wife her husband back, and many people a reprieve from my chaos. And, spiritual is in no way "beyond myself". Insane. If that were true, that would mean that I am no part of God, which I dont believe, I KNOW is false.
jamenstep1 8 months ago
@travellinman321 I guess I dont understand this movement against it. It is working for lots of people. If someone doesnt like it, dont go. Changing our behavior for the better is the spiritual aspect. We try to develop a st of spiritual principals to live by. A lot of us did not have this at first, or some just lost it. It's not about religion. It's about being honest, accountable to something, willing to try new things and take direction.
lukatme2 9 months ago
@travellinman321 AA has nothing to do with the court making people attend. They have no money for support. The money collected pays rent for meeting space, buys literature, puts together conventions and so on. No one is profiting financially from AA. It works for the people it works for. Who cares? The courts and local treatment centers recognize how effective a 12 step program is, and use it.
lukatme2 9 months ago
AA doesnt have any expenses for these idiots. AA also has 12 traditions. tradition 7, aa ought to be fully self-supportive, declining outside contributions. If the court makes someone go, aa does not benefit financially. The are no dues or fees. A basket is passed around at the end, and you can put a buck in if you want. No one gives you any shit, or even notices if you dont put in a buck. The money pays rent for the space, buys more literature etc.. No one profits financially from aa.
lukatme2 9 months ago
Aa is about internal change and staying sober
hurleythegreat 9 months ago
Why AA doesn't work for over 97% of people who join ? Because its the 3 percent that have truly hit bottom and work the program Its the 97 that are usually doing it for the court or someone they love . 97 percent dont have open minds and still have the house and 2 cars in the garage and have no clue what hitting bottom is When down on ur knees because u have no other option you have no where else to turn too those are the 3 percent the 3 % at the meetings i go to are more like 60 % that stay
TheMarkTheShark86 9 months ago
@TheMarkTheShark86 Most of the time people are court-ordered or forced into it to complete their treatment program. It's a cult, and brought me nothing but grief!
meddetect10 9 months ago
@TheMarkTheShark86 Regardless of the specific percentage, and your bizarre rationalization for how low it is, explain why the recovery rate for people not even in the program is the exact same.
tml4873 9 months ago
where is my help then as a hard atheist/skeptic???
cockbroker 9 months ago
Press 3 for doo-doo
FluffyPidgeon 10 months ago
aa is not some huge corporation, i can start a meeting on my front lawn and take that survey. i wish these critics would offer an alternative rather than just criticism, and aa is about recovering along spiritual lines, it will work for some, others it may not work for. i think the fact that courts order people to attend is kinda messed up, but there arent many other FREE alternative programs, and just because a court is ordering you to attend does not mean you have the desire to stay sober.
nogripwantsurebabies 10 months ago
@nogripwantsurebabies Christianity is also not some huge corporation, but it doesn't mean it's not a cancer. You're right, just because a court is ordering you to AA doesn't mean you're motivated. It DOES mean that it's violating your rights. Here's a free alternative program that works at exactly the same rate: nothing at all. Just think about that for a minute. Doing nothing at all as the exact same success rate as aa.
tml4873 9 months ago
Test
donlapcam 10 months ago
Glad that big stupid fat bastard knows nothing - he was kicked out Of AA because he had little male men addiction -AA works - that guy is a goof just lol at him - un treachable
donlapcam 10 months ago
@donlapcam Ah, the ad hominem attack, the last bastion of the criminally stupid.
tml4873 9 months ago
AA is a good social group and can give you things to do other than drink. that's a good thing if you've forgotten how to live without drinkin'. But as for a higher power helping you? Probably many people have a misconception that God will intervene in your life if you ask hard enough. Life is just difficult. If you don't like AA, don't go.
Lisarata 10 months ago 2
Well, you wouldn't argue with a big loud scary bastard like Gary Busey, would you? Yes, whatever you say, Gary, it works, it works!! Doesn't sound like it, but hey! There you are!
cookinongas 10 months ago
god god god higher power higher power god god bait switch bait switch bait switch do good regret do good service service do good regret and hate your former life, then do good, regret, hmm.... kinda like being a cathlolic? lol guilt, remorse, repent!
DJLunasf 10 months ago
I can't believe we are still sending court ordered alcohol offenders to this cult for recovery. But I guess the reason is because not only is there no cost for recovering the offender but it's almost gaurenteed the offender will relapse in this program and commit more alcohol related crime which generates money for the system.
beautifulmind546 11 months ago
@beautifulmind546
Im sure the judge doesnt want a criminal to recommit a crime because it "generates more money for the system".
aruble1 10 months ago
@aruble1 if that is what you really think then you would be wrong. No criminals, ppl genuinely recovered from addiction then no need for court systems or judges. AA supports the court systems with it's 5% successful recovery rate. Wake up. AA is a cult doing nothing but perpetuating narcicism and keeping people unhealed from what drove them to CHOOSE drinking in the first place.
beautifulmind546 10 months ago
@beautifulmind546 "SMH" As a busy professional, I gotta say you are very out of touch and your opinions are flavored with disillusion & irrelevance.
IdahoAngler2 10 months ago
@IdahoAngler2 On the contrary, I am very much in touch with what is going on with AA and after years of buying into this being the only help for family members sobriety and healing I see it for what it is - a sham. If you can't even take a momemt to question every AA belief that you hold dear then you are mind controlled and the PROGRAM has done it's job in programming you. Congrats.
beautifulmind546 10 months ago
Hey, Penn, I caught your stint with Kim Johnson on "Dancing with the Stars." Talk about things that don't work. That is your dancing, dude. That poor babe, Kim Johnson, would have had more success dancing with a water buffalo.
2001FXSTD 11 months ago
Don't these guys haven't anything better to do?
Hey if AA helps fine by me.
But it's sad that Penn & Teller can't find anything better to do?
Get a life guys........
(or better a career-lol)
TheMage1127 11 months ago 2
The multi billion dollar treatment industry has to justify employing fuckwits that could do nothing else for a living . The vast majority of which are affiliated with 12 step programs. The courts like it this way . Dr Bob was restored ( returned to a previous capacity) and went on treat alcoholics free of charge his remaining years. His counterpart became a millionaire and frontman for the cult. Could it be as easy as the disease ran its couse and did not kill me ? I will settle for dry drunk.
jeffrey19621 11 months ago
technically you're right since the 12 steps of AA are translated by bill wilson from the king james bible. the path you've chosen to provide for you and your family is a facade too. or perhaps that presumption by me would be absurd based on the fact that i dont know anything about you. perhaps me judging your life would also be absurd since i dont even know you. moreover, it would be ludicrous for me to think i know anything about you and how you live your life.
Taxi502 1 year ago
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Sabsterino 1 year ago
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Sabsterino 1 year ago
penn and teller are fools, talking about something they know nothing about and have no personal life experience with. justifies AA's expenses!!!??? there are no expenses you fucking idiots. you have no clue. what they dont know to explain is that the 5% that are white knuckling it have no change in their life. the 5% that stay sober in AA, well our lives change for the better, we learn how to become better human beings. this video should be deleted burned and then buried under hitler's dog
Taxi502 1 year ago
@Taxi502 Hard to become a "better human being" by deliberately giving up rational though, don't you think?
MrMZaccone 1 year ago
@MrMZaccone yes, extremely hard to become a better human being if one were to give up rational thought. thank goodness i have learned how to consciously settle my mind and think rationally by what i have learned in AA. now on the other hand, there are a myriad of paths in life to take, whether it be philosophical, metaphysical, or spiritual, that have very effective ways to learn how to think more clearly or more rationally. it just so happens i am a drunk and AA is the path i use
Taxi502 1 year ago
@Taxi502 "learned how to consciously settle my mind and think rationally by what i have learned in AA" ... Not possible. Actually, I bet AA is not the path you use regardless of what you claim. The path you've chosen lies elsewhere and AA is a facade.
MrMZaccone 1 year ago
In AA we don't pull people off barstools. You wanna drink? BFD, that's your business. But, If you really want to STAY sober for good and all, you DO the steps. Don't want to stay sober? Great, go back out and keep digging.
IdahoAngler2 1 year ago
I'm a Penn and Teller fan but this disappointed me because alcoholics, at least that 5% of of us need group support. It just sounds like Penn and Teller have never dealt with addiction themselves and they are lucky. But their investigation comes off arrogant and contrite. People don't go to AA to be a part of a religion - they go there to TRY to become sober and if they succeed then they are better off. Getting sober on ones own by sheer will power is not easy and seldom accomplished. Cheers
NewsdayLaura 1 year ago
what is wrong with you people? do you know what a higher learning is? i guess not!! if it helps people then where is the wrong doing? you should never condemn something you do not understand! and especially because you failed to understand it, you try to make it so others dont get the help they seek, need or deserve! again i ask "what the hell is wrong with you people"? the AA program has "SAVED MY LIFE" and a number of my friends lives too! PEOPLE SHOULD THINK BEFORE THEY ACT! THIS PROVES IT
billcheney46 1 year ago
AA is an option people have and it's worked for millions and for millions it hasn't worked. The same can be said for going it on your own, using groups, using therapists, using church... whatever.
I can vouch for AA. I've been clean and sober for 15 years.
It's an option. You don't like that option, choose another.
I wish you the best.
johnwalterm 1 year ago
@johnwalterm No need for all this drama.
Also, I absolutely disagree with court ordered attendance at AA meetings.
No one should be forced to walk in the doors of an anonymous and autonomous group.
johnwalterm 1 year ago
@johnwalterm AA is a religion. The courts have determined that.
TheDavid2222 1 year ago
AA isnt an organiztion lol
TheMarkTheShark86 1 year ago
This is bullshit. AA is more effective than no treatment. I'm sorry but they are misinformed. Those statistics are way wrong.
TheRoyal1990 1 year ago
@TheRoyal1990 then give us proof they are wrong buckaroo.
Clemburke1111 1 year ago
@Clemburke1111 Go to any AA meeting in your area. Then you will have proof. There are always 5-50 people in there with YEARS of sobriety, depending on how big the AA meeting is. It's kind of hard to get accurate stats from a place that is anonymous.
TheRoyal1990 1 year ago
@TheRoyal1990 Proof by data and statistics,,not by going to have a look see
Clemburke1111 1 year ago
@Clemburke1111 You are either A) someone that was unable to get sober from AA because you were unwilling or B) just someone who likes to start arguments on the internet. Either way I don't really care. You are miserable and I hope life gets better for you. You can have your opinion, I've been in AA long enough to know what the facts are. I think a lot of the principles are bull shit. I can agree with some of that, but I can think of 100 people within my small town who have over 5 year.
TheRoyal1990 1 year ago
@TheRoyal1990 I have not had a drink since august 15th of 1990 and the only thing I had to do was find out why I started ,and to do so one may need to seek a therapist as I did. I love life and have a happy family now and every day is far better,,,yep you drank the cool-aid. your comments are of misery.
Clemburke1111 1 year ago
@Clemburke1111 You need to give it another try,live a little,see that it will be different now.Then get back to me.
217789jimbo 1 year ago
@217789jimbo Trust me I do not miss drinking one bit, I am a runner, travel all over the world and am a speaker for gay rights,,I have too much ging for me,,besids is messes up your look,,and I am smokin hot...lol
Clemburke1111 1 year ago
people who need a hospital and nurses and all this care and support just to stop drinking or taking drugs are WIMPS ! wimps who cry every time life gets hard,
do me a favor and kill your self's . wimps are not wanted
gullitulli 1 year ago
@gullitulli I'm a wimp and I would make a bet I could make you one too.
bigirish68 1 year ago
5%.
johnsanuy 1 year ago
In other words, "Hi my name is Penn and Teller and I am Hollywood and we hate God and anything that has to do with God"
(Give me a break. This is getting old and lame)
Brunogirlfriend 1 year ago
take this down, i own Aa and you morons make fun of my rip off program.
NA IS BETTER I OWN THAT TOO
Israel1948us 1 year ago
it works if you work it... is it better to take positive action? is it better to think of helping others before helping yourself? or should we all play god and try to run the world to our own advantage? i will take aa....
fobills10 1 year ago
AA has helped keep me sober. If it works for me then I'm game.
irhusker 1 year ago 2
@irhusker nice anecdote. too bad that doesn't count.
IheartFreedom 1 year ago
@IheartFreedom Doesn't count for what? I'm confused as to what it doesn't count for. If I'm sober that counts for a lot to me!
irhusker 1 year ago
it is called anonymity you idiot... it is impossible to do an actual survey that is accurate. It's none of your fucking business. What percentage of prisoners are alcoholics. Mind your own business dumbass.
cygnusesx1 1 year ago
Guess you better not piss Penn and Teller off. AA does not require outside support (financial or otherwise) as he suggested in his attack (err I mean investigative journalism).....this story had no facts. He could come to any open keynote speech at a convention, and see the sobriety countdown. We do not know about those who do not keep coming back.
rickbangkok 1 year ago
pathetic indeed
cygnusesx1 1 year ago
I don't drink this kool-aid either. 5% success is 5% success(5% more than before,...). Success is a very subjective matter anyway. Of estimated(1993~97 figures) 3.5 million people annually at 96,000 locations is still a big number 175,000 thousand less drunk drivers and so many other implications to families and societies. What statistics exist for people who succeed(define success? Abstinence, controlled drinking?) on their own or via other methods?
toddutoob 1 year ago
Why not just say "I hate this God stuff and court referrals are a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state?" Why go into all this BS that can't be proven one way or another?
If you want to try AA, try AA. If you don't want to try AA, don't. Life is not so complicated. Penn and Teller are completely disingenuous and cynically evangelical here.
synapsecracklepop 1 year ago
AA doesn't monitor people. There are no membership roles, follow up, counselors, bureaucracy or monitors, like the Methodists or Treatment Centers. The statistics are simply not knowable. Anyone that claims to know, including AA, is full of crap. That includes the evangelical atheists that are supposedly "debunking" AA claims. They have no clue. They just hate the mention of God in AA literature and the Courts mandating attendance. With the former, I completely agree. It's bullshit.
synapsecracklepop 1 year ago
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synapsecracklepop 1 year ago
I have always heard that it was 1/20 which and this small amount includes a population that is either too old to drink or on so many pharm. prescribed from doctors that there really is nothing. Also, AA is on the way out due to so many cross addicted folks.
chrisgellroy 1 year ago
Okay, whoever is interested in AA recovery rates should realize that the triennial survey chart shows a 26% retention rate. Not 5% as is commonly reported.
It's an easy mistake to make but the percentage of alcoholics with between 0-1 months is 19%. Not 100%.
My friend Hammersly1967 and I had a pretty thourough discussion which we have agreed to delet because of our mutual insults.
But trust us. The 5% from this chart result is just an internet myth.
tjyard 2 years ago
@tjyard No its fairly standard information from all walks of like. AA simply does not work, admit this and then you can begin your recovery
chrisgellroy 1 year ago
yeah, that AA is a threat to people's sobriety. keep up the good work, genius.
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tjyard 2 years ago
@tjyard
The part of the graph would have to be FOUR TIMES SMALLER with a ridiculous superfluous virtually vertical line intersecting with the 100% mark on the % axis - or the graph would have to sprawl over FOUR pages.
It's called pragmatism and presentation...
Happens ALL the time when presenting social research data.
I think that it's an obvious approach to present this way dum-dum...
You're funny!!!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
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tjyard 2 years ago
@tjyard:
You are right.
I am wrong.
The base that we are coming off is 19% of the first year members going down to 5% of first year members in the last month of that first year. 5 /19 = 0.2631 or roughly 26%.
I read the chart incorrectly.
(It's NO excuse, but the line graph does seem misleading. Wouldn't it be better set out as a bar graph? Many AA members are also under the misconception that the data shows a 5% efficacy.)
I apologise for being rude, arrogant, ignorant and insulting...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
No apology necessary.
I can give it out pretty good myself.
For that I'll apologise and we'll be even.
Thank you for sticking with the argument.
I agree the chart is confusing. But I don't think it was ever meant for public distribution.
Yes, a bar graph would be better. But.....it is what it is. :)
It's sad AA members think AA has only a 5% success rate too. 26% is pretty damn low for an affliction like alcoholism.
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Hammersley1967 2 years ago
why does a self supporting group need to "justify expenses"? (the 7th tradition)
oystabwai 2 years ago
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Hammersley1967 2 years ago
THIS MAKES MY PUSSY WET
zooromeo 2 years ago
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taylormark19 2 years ago
nice piece of slight of hand boys.....
good to see someone so good at their job
RAYRBRAYRB 2 years ago
truth hurts
zooromeo 2 years ago
say boys what did you say your day job was?
RAYRBRAYRB 2 years ago
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tjyard 2 years ago
@tjyard:
You DO know that you just embarrassed yourself beyond belief, don't you?
I suggest that you have another little looksy at that graph...
*snigger*
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