Star Trek - Picard on Death

[MartialArtsfreestyle]

lol data looks so confused at the end.

[bertski89]

Picard is a P-I-M-P

[TheAH67]

realy, realy he's a fucking cyborg and he wants to know what death is realy

[universallyacclaimed]

@TheAH67 it wasnt Data who asked the question but merely a projection of Data. Did you watch the episode?

[WolfySnackrib666]

Data: Say wuuuut?!

[zombiemurloc]

i giggle every time they same "come" lol "why are they always talking about cum?!

[florenmage]

Picard=One of the wizest mother fuckers in entertainment history.

[lishkoburger12]

What song is playing in the background when he's talking to Data>?

[doncarbone11]

@lishkoburger12 its called 'gymnopedie no. 1" (of 3) by Erik Satie.

Search wikipedia for "The Gymnopédies" - "...published in Paris starting in 1888, are three piano compositions written by French composer and pianist Erik Satie."

[skekze]

One note dies so another can be born. Giving rise to the entire infinite song.

[skekze]

Life has a way of surviving, like a seed waiting it's turn to grow, so Death is but a pause in the music. We need those pauses to make the melody all the more beautiful.

[TheEthug]

The tides go in.... the tides go out.

[PlanetMan77]

I was scared this was going to be the usual miserable claptrap about how you blink into nothingness but this is still somehow good blah blah blah.... instead Picard's sentiment ended up being very close to my own. Just about made my day. Thanks, uploader, Star Trek and reddit.

[StudioTaralqua]

What is Death? Turn around, Deanna is there. She's going to get you, man.

[truman890]

Death is when you cease to have contact with those who perceive themselves as not dead.

[Hayashirice911]

Song is "Gymnopedie No.1" by Erik Satie

[WhatDoneIsDone]

1:29 when the hell did she enter the room??

[WakeSideLife]

As with all of life's great questions... they can be answered with a Star Trek reference

[hlyleh]

@WakeSideLife You can thank Gene Roddenberry for that. Such a great man.

[DutchNordic]

Afterlife will be the same as before life.

[drizzit2012]

TIL: picard supports the strong anthropic principle.

[quikgamer]

I love this scene and I agree with Picard.

[ORACLE063]

The simple act of being aware is an energetic process. Awareness is energy.. when u die the energy changes state. So awareness changes. Memories are tied to the physical brain. They are not taken with you. Who knows you might be falling through alternate realities. Dying in one, being born in another. Reincarnation might be a candidate also (simple - die be reborn where the "energy" is needed ie cells, ants, flies, maggots )... energy cannot be created or destroyed so who knows...

[johncharnley1]

I believe this episode is called 'where silence has Lease' - quite interesting about Picar's philosophies.

[charvelgtrs]

Picard is so fucking high. Pot must be legal in their time.

[theinquisitor]

@charvelgtrs, well he was facing apparent certain death in less than 20 minutes. Would you be sober?

[kieranmullen2]

@theinquisitor Which episode was this?

[ZeroPermission]

@charvelgtrs Replication technology. FTW.

[thespecialneedsgroup]

@charvelgtrs Surprisingly, Vulcans grow the best hydro kush in the whole damn quadrant.

[neil73]

I like this. We must all remember that anyone claiming to know what happens to us after we die are either lying, mentally ill, both or after something. Am I the only one who finds psychics who claim to be able to speak to the dead fundamentally sick? Giving comfort for money in some kind of twisted prostitution of emotions?

[theinquisitor]

@neil73, I also find psychics utterly reprehensible. Especially the big ones like John Edward and Sylvia Browne. Rather than allowing the person to grieve and heal, they draw out the pain and poison the memories of the dead person with the psychic's bullshit messages from them. It's just an old carnival trick called cold reading. The money is one thing, but there should be laws against this kind of fraud that causes real emotional harm to people.

[neil73]

@theinquisitor Me too. And they always have the audacity to say they aren't in it for the money. I read back my last comment and I realise Ive (sort of ) quoted Tim Minchin's poem 'Storm'. If you've not seen it, I highly recommend it to you - its about an atheist humanist (Minchin) who argues with a newager hippy type at a dinner party. Search 'Tim Minchin - Storm' and you'll find it - 9 minutes of class

[theinquisitor]

@neil73, oh yes Storm is brilliant. Tim Minchin is hilarious. I saw Storm performed live by Tim at TAM London 2009. That was awesome and it was the first time I'd heard it. Also, at TAM London 2010, I saw an unfinished version of the short animation that's been made to go with the poem that's supposed to be released sometime this year.

Let me return a recommendation for the more obscure George Hrab. He also writes skeptically themed music, such as the song "Everything alive will die someday".

[condhor]

@theinquisitor it is technically their Constitutional right. Not saying I agree with it or condone it, just saying there shouldn't be a law against it.

[CambridgeHeights]

@neil73 I know what happens after we die. Nothing! Worms eat our bodies. We rot.

[AngelFluttershy767]

@neil73

How do you know you aren't lying to yourself right now? To say that anyone who says that is just lying or mentally ill or after something is just plain idiotic. Maybe YOU are lying or mentally ill, or after something. How does that feel?

[neil73]

@AngelFluttershy767 I don't know what happens when we die. Well, I do, but I'm not going into details. Loads of people believe we carry on after death - that our minds continue to exist beyond the death of the physical body. Unfortunately, this unknown is exploited by devious and wicked people for the purposes of gaining power OVER other people. And that, to me is evil.

Now tell me, What was so idiotic about my last comment?

[StargateMunky]

"I believe that there is a nexus where time isnt real.... and then I will get kirk killed in some bullshit red shirt death scenario"

[CamButler]

I farted watching this

[TheGreenVoter]

This was one of the most beautiful scenes in Star Trek history. What the fuck is y'all's problem? Do you literally achieve an orgasm by turning your noses up at something? "Dude, when that band first came out, they were cool, but now they suck!" and so on ...

What Picard was describing was 1) Christianity, 2) atheism and 3) agnosticism -- and as usual, Sir Patrick Stewart did it with his unique flair ... It's so simple, even an inbred retard could understand ...

[Nopperabou]

Well I have to agree with Picard. Niether explanation goes far enough for me.

[BaloogaStudios]

If you accept the raw science (which you should, as it's rigorously proven), our entire existence is simply what we experience due to sensory inputs. However, these sensory inputs are governed by our existence. Therefore, any speculation as to who we are or what happens after our death is just that: speculation, and cannot be proven, disproven, or given probability.

[PaleHearse]

It would be very interesting to find out how this scene was written. Did they allow Patrick Stewart to imagine what Picard's response would be and write it himself, or were the words written for him in a screen play. I would be very curious to learn the answer to that.

[Keysteeze]

Perhaps not in the TOS or TNG. But in Deep Space Nine and Voyager there are serveral episodes that would give the impression that there actually is a Dualism to consciousness. That a persons self is not reducible to the workings of the brain. That a non-material person exist.

[drche420]

Vague and poorely thought out line for him in the script... I love Picard but the writers fucked up big time on this one.

[busterpiggle]

Why does our existence need to be anything more than it appears? Why add an unknowable element to it?

[theinquisitor]

@busterpiggle, well there is more to it than there appears to be. Not only the aspects of reality that science has revealed like quantum physics, which shows that there is a strangeness to the small that we cannot have imagined, but there are undoubtedly countless mysteries remaining to be discovered, or perhaps never to be discovered. One thing science has shown us is not so much the depth of our knowledge, but the depth of our ignorance. There are still wonders in the universe.

[Hepathos]

@busterpiggle Because if human history teached us anything, is that there is ALWAYS something more out there, much more that we're considering the full extend of our knowledge.

[darian1968]

cool :)

[known12]

anyone know what episode where pople on the planet thought Picard was God? and they invited a woman on board and she saw her planet from space?

[theinquisitor]

@known12, it's "who watches the watchers". Great episode. I will probably upload some clips from that episode at some point, but the hard part is trying to figure out which bits to leave out.

[known12]

@theinquisitor thanks for the info. I;ve always loved that scene with the woman on the ship and picard is telling her its her planet seen from far above with that beautiful spacey music playing in the background. I'm going to buy or rent that episode anyways. thanks again!

[known12]

@theinquisitor actuallty now that I know the name of the episode there are clips of the whole episode online already, got to love youtube and it has the scene I'm talking about. a powerful scene.

[theinquisitor]

@known12, yeah it's definitely one of my favourites. Picard's rant against supernaturalism is also a great moment.

[mycatisamoron]

@theinquisitor What rant against supernaturalism are you referring to? I don't remember that (although I love when he responds with "let us do no such damn thing" when Q says "let us pray" lol). Thanks

[theinquisitor]

@mycatisamoron, when one of the anthropologists suggests indulging their belief in his divinity to give them guidelines, Picard refuses and he says, "millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural, and now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement? To send them back into the dark ages of ignorance and superstition and fear? No!"

Damn, that's awesome. And yeah I also like the response to "let us pray".

[KillSwitch2]

What Season and Episode is this?

[theinquisitor]

@KillSwitch2, season 2, "Where Silence Has Lease".

[TheGuyAlwaysOnTime]

He's listening to Gymnopedie (1?) ! :D wonderful...

[friartuck000]

A funny thing about science fiction is that not only are alternate sciences and technologies explored but alternate views of the universe. Stories of bald faced materialism and it's consequences for the human mind are shelved side by side with stories of psychics and aliens that harness mystical energy.

In this world I'm not a believer but I think it interesting to explore fictional worlds in which belief is warranted or even undeniable.

[keeblergraham21]

Good grief. That mealy-mouthed Picard has poor Data looking at him like he's Sarah Palin explaining economic policy.

[bustermk2]

Huh?

[quikgamer]

I agree with Picard, laws of the Universe, complexity of it all. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

[MykRefer]

The Captain let me down there.

[sdgdsgs]

lol, troi just appears

[TheReasonWhyGuy]

I think we become, what we were before we existed, which is something which doesn't exist.

I see us fading out, not in a flash, but just as our brain decays, so to do we fade... slowly, and steadily, assuming that we don't die from our heads being crushed -.-

This fading out. would be similar to how we fade into consciousness, no 1 point in time, was our first experience, unless you would count it as being the first synapse firing, but the level of activity increases, like a fade, in reverse

[pete275]

heh, what a cop-out

[rnvogel05]

In the 24th century, religion has evolved to from people believing in god to believing that they transform into a god. You gotta love Star Trek's predictions. Fascinating.

[theinquisitor]

Indeed. If there are gods in the space time continuum, it makes more sense that they are in the future rather than the past.

[wally1139]

I wounder if this is what Stewart really believes.

[TheOneOwner]

lol isnt that the song in Kingdom hearts 2? idk sounds like it but still great video :D

[theinquisitor]

It's a piece of classical music from the 19th century called Gymnopedie number 1 by Erik Satie. I think Kingdom Hearts 2 probably came after that.

[TheOneOwner]

well it sounded like the music in kingdom hearts 2 thats all i said -.-

[theinquisitor]

Perhaps so. I've always thought we have a lot more to learn from Data than he has to learn from humanity.

[theinquisitor]

Probably, however it does raise the quesion of whether the human brain has the capacity to fully understand itself.

I imagine you'd need an internal representation of the entire brain in the brain, but then this would entail having a representation of the representation and so on. It's like a computer running a simulation of the operations of that same computer. Like that painting of a painter painting a painter painting a painter and so on.

Maybe we'll need to rely on our computers for that.

[MeIsArtTickYouLet]

windows 7 advertises that capability

[theinquisitor]

"Wouldn't data best understand death, because of a lack of any weird delusions of a soul?"

Perhaps he would merely be interested in the human pespective on it. Also, it wasn't really Data in this scene, but Negilum in disguise.

"He could probably just use a 24th-century neuroscience textbook"

Yeah this is one of the problems of portraying the far future. We can't know the discoveries that are to come and so the apparent gaps in the knowledge of the characters seems inappropriate.

[clokverkorange]

I think you missed the subtle joke.

Star Trek has introduced so many beings with godlike powers that it becomes sort of a moot point. Apparently 60% of the creatures in the galaxy could wipe out the human race with a snap of the fingers, but choose not to because humans are so "amusing", or "interesting", or "fascinating", or whatever the descriptive summary is in that episode. Somehow humanity manages to squeak by on ingenuity, inventiveness, and sheer dumb luck, every single time.

[rhynerisdead]

reading some of the comments here makes me sad that people are so arrogant to think they have any idea what life and death is all about

the person who uploaded this video is very wise and you should carefully consider what he is saying

[simplybornhuman]

Nature wants us to strive to live forever, and if we don't do so, we FAIL!

And all that was given, will be taken, as we are not spoilt kids, we are engineers, and we should act like it, for our own sake.

Death, is the enemy, all rational things want to survive, we are all fighting as a part of this algorithm. Lets go with it, and try and achieve our wildest fantasies and immortality.

[clokverkorange]

Q is God. Canon. No argument possible.

Well, either that or V'Ger is God. I can't remember back that far.

[OuroborosChoked]

Data's like: "Damn, another fucking creationist. I'm about to end and I get the 'watch equals watchmaker' argument."

[theinquisitor]

That's not what I thought he was saying at all. How is saying that the universe is more complicated and mysterious than we can imagine anything to do with the watchmaker argument?

[OuroborosChoked]

I'm joking. It's based on the setup between 1:35 and 1:46, it's almost like he's about to say, "You get the sense that there's some kind of intelligent designer behind it all..."

That's the gag.

[theinquisitor]

Humour. It is a difficult concept. It is not logical.

[Trancemaster2052]

This is one of my favorite TNG episodes.

[knowpassword]

what music is the capt. listening to?

[smellincoffee]

What we don't see:

Data: May I speak frankly, sir?

Picard: By all means, Mr. Data.

Data: That sounded like a load of hooey.

[Robikus]

But it wasn't Data, don't forget that.

[theinquisitor]

True, but I think it's a question Data might have asked, to get a human perspective on the issue.

[Robikus]

But he would have never said hooey, and if he ever did it would be followed by a humber, 'with all due respect sir.'

[theinquisitor]

Indeed, and he would have thrown in a "suffice it to say". They say that a lot.

[churchmousie]

@Robikus He'd be borrowing a phrase from L. Q. "Sonny" Clemmons, back from Season 1, "The Neutral Zone".

[elliotcheely]

you are right. it is a contradiction to picard's character.

[TomWaitsLivesWithout]

This isn't very good writing. TNG's script was good at the exact time Riker grew his beard.

[clokverkorange]

"TNG's script was good because Riker grew his beard".

Fixed.

[billyboyjennings]

Plato's Cave

[AntiChrist67]

COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT !!!

[theinquisitor]

Have you seen how many Star Trek clips there are on youtube? They've been here for years, I'm not worried.

[websnarf]

"Fair Use".

[websnarf]

Oh come on ... the discussions between Lorien and Sheridan is way beyond this. I never really liked Star Trek, and this clip does not improve that opinion.

[theinquisitor]

Blasphemy!

Seriously though, what did Lorien and Sheridan have to say? Do you mean that stuff about tick and tock?

[websnarf]

Yeah. And "Its easy to find something worth dying for ... "

[theinquisitor]

"...do you have anything worth living for?"

Yeah that was good. Babylon 5 was an amazing epic. Have you seen the new DVD the Lost Tales?

[Mjhavok]

Haha no way I just re-watched Babylon 5. Tons of philosophy and science stuff and religious/spirituality in that show. Quite interesting.

Lorien pwns the Shadows and Vorlons :-D

[TariqAlSuave]

Understanding is a three-edged sword

[mwest1234]

I have to agree with you here. I was watching this clip going, how the hell did I ever not laugh at this show? What the heck is he going on about? Is he on drugs? :)

[Brainmold]

Great show.

[zombiemouse]

5*'s awesome 'data' upload yuk yuk yuk

[yancur]

As I see it, what Picard says is just a convenient way to say "I want to believe in after life, but my common sense doesn't allow me to fully admit it".

[theinquisitor]

I don't think that's it at all. He seems to believe that the universe is far more than it appears, and that any understanding we can have is merely the tip of the iceberg of reality. The truth about life and death is far stranger and more wonderful than we can imagine. Our existence must be more than either of these philosophies.

[yancur]

Well and what is that then? There either is some kind of continuation of life after death, or there is not.

Besides, what Pickard said is not quite true, because when we die, the atoms from our bodies continue to exist (probably) forever. So in this sense our existence continues, but I don't think it's what he meant.

When we die it's the same as when a fly dies. No difference there..

[theinquisitor]

It depends on what you mean by continuation and life. I don't think he was talking about the continuation of the matter of his body. I'm not sure how to put it better than Picard does.

Imagine a caveman looking at the stars a million years ago. He has so little to go on that they are dismissed as just little dots. We see death less clearly than they saw the stars, and yet we presume knowledge of it.

[bryanao]

hmmm...inquisitor I'm impressed. You almost sound like one of us deist's. To quote Einstein, "I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details". What changed your atheist stance?

[theinquisitor]

Well I'm a skeptic first, and my atheism towards the theistic god is a result of that. In regards to a deistic god I have to be necessarily agnostic about an entity that is claimed to be necessarily undetectable, but it is still only one of many possibilities, many of which we probably can't imagine. There's not much more reason to suppose such an entity as there is to suppose the invisible donkey sitting behind me. Having said that...

[theinquisitor]

... despite how much we've learned, there is still surely a great deal more to learn than we do know. The point I think Picard was getting at is that all of our approximations about reality are all woefully inadequate and so therefore there is necessarily a lot more to it than we see. Something like consciousness is so fundamentally mysterious, that nothing we've come up with so far explains it. So if we can't comprehend being alive, how can we know what it is to lose that?

[AntiChrist67]

"consciousness is so fundamentally mysterious"

What part of consciousness do you find so mysterious? To me, there is nothing mysterious about it and it is a simple and natural byproduct/consequence of evolution for it offers valuable survival benefits.

[theinquisitor]

It certainly makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that consciousness would have a survival advantage. What interests me is not why we have consciousness, but how. You can reduce the functions of every braincell to the same chemical processes in single celled life forms, and yet they aren't conscious. Something about the trillions of interactions between the braincells causes consciousness, but how it does that is the question.

[theinquisitor]

Why didn't animals evolve as "zombies" or "robots", which could respond to stimulus, but there without a conscious experiencer that feels what is happening. We presumably think of computers as non-conscious but could we make one complex enough to become conscious? How would we tell the difference between a truly conscious computer and one that just behaves like one? These are the kinds of questions that fascinate me.

[theinquisitor]

The question of how consciousness works is interesting for the same reason the question of how photosynthesis or digestion works. Certainly we understand that photosynthesis and digestion have evolved because they confer survival advantages, but figuring out the "designs" that natural selection has come up with is very interesting. Consciousness has been "designed" by natural selection, and if we can figure out how, that would be fascinating.

[theinquisitor]

Also I think Einstein's concept of god was the same as Spinoza's, a god that is non-personal, non-moral, naturalistic and really barely fitting the original definition of the concept at all. So when Einstein said he wanted to know god's thoughts, I think he was trying to say in a provocative way, that he wanted to know how the universe works. I think that putting a consciousness on the universe is anthropomorhising. I don't see anything pointing to that except our egos.

[bryanao]

"Einstein wanted to know how the universe works". Exactly! Deists don't believe in miracles, holy books or divine intervention. It is a constant quest for the answers to questions. No entity is undetectable. At one time no one could imagine detecting a virus, an atom or DNA. Deist believe the complexity yet the consistency in the universes is too ambiguous to be shelved as mere chance.

[bryanao]

An entity that must come in the last second to save the day is not a good planner. Only perfection could be responsible for all we are able to witness. What limits humanity is language and our inability to translate ideas. Mathematics is irrefutable. Mathematics may be the only true consciousness. It gives us the ability to understand a germ or a supernova. In numerals may be the answers, not in chapters or verses. I agree with you. Stay skeptical and open minded.

[theinquisitor]

I think I know what he means, but I can't put it into words. Every time I try it comes out trite and stupid sounding. It's not like I'm suggesting there is an afterlife, but I think that there is more to our existence than this, and even if our conscious minds don't continue, they have always existed in time. I can't get it out, never mind.

[yancur]

Let's assume you are right but what about flies, horses, apes? Does their life also continue in some unspecified way? If not why not? And how about Bacteria? Viruses? Simple self-replicating molecules?

[theinquisitor]

I really don't think it's about continuation or the afterlife. It's the idea that what we perceive as reality is merely a shadow of a much larger reality which we don't understand. So to simply say that death is it, snap, or to say that we continue to exist is too simplistic. The complete truth is probably more complicated than we can understand, but that doesn't mean in any way we should start falling back on ancient dogmas about souls.

[theinquisitor]

What I'm saying is that there is still a lot of work that science has to do before we can understand death. I think the childish religious perspectives about it have polarised this issue. We don't even understand what consciousness is really. All the explanations of the chemical processes of the brain do not explain consciousness, at least not yet. So if we can't explain thought, how can we explain the loss of it?

[theinquisitor]

I don't expect to continue to exist after I die, but when I consider things on the edge of scientific understanding, the idea of infinite universes, quantum strangeness and entanglement, it seems like every part of the universe is affected by every other part. I am as much a part of the universe as all the rest of it, and being a part of something so grand makes me think that even if <b>I</b> die, there is much more than me.

[yancur]

I remeber when I was a child and my Dad told me that one day every one dies I couldn't imagine it and was afraid. It took me quite a while to realize that being dead is the same as not being born, that it is the same "feeling".

Sure Universe is more complex then we think, but I don't see any reason to believe that there is a "thrid option".. :) I would have to take it on faith, which something I do not like to do.. :)

[theinquisitor]

Indeed, I'd never advocate faith, this is all just speculation. However I do think we have a biased impression of what reality is by the fact that we're trapped in this prison of flesh and bone, not that we could exist outside it, but this does mean we don't really see things as they are. Time is perceived as a continuum going from beginning to end, but as we know our intuition about time and space isn't quite right.

[HanifXHier]

Kudos.

[theinquisitor]

I don't believe this idea firmly in any way, but then I don't firmly believe in anything. I doubt even my doubts, and I know how small and blind we are, so it doesn't really take any faith for me to say there's much more to it than I know. The simple and straightforward answer of blinking into nothingness doesn't seem irrational, but I think it's only part of the picture.

[yancur]

Well if this speculation is true, I'll be only glad, but unless we find something that will change my mind, I'd better stay skeptic. Though to be completely honest, I like speculations ;)

BTW: Seems like you are big fan of Star Trek, am I right?

[theinquisitor]

Yeah I'm very much a trekkie, but I don't wear the uniforms. I started watching the next generation when it first came on BBC2 and watched it every week all the way to the end. I think it had a lot to do with who I became. Underneath the sci-fi stuff, it's really a morality play, and a vision of hope about what human potential could do. I think this kind of modern mythology has the potential to replace the lessons religion is supposed to teach, without the need to see it as fact.

[yancur]

I love mostly the science part of it, though it's bit exaggerated and sometimes even contradictory, but overall shows various scientific propositions, and opens mind to the vast possibilities and complexities that may lie ahead..

BTW: Did you know that there is Klingon language and that there is actually a wikipedia in Kiligon? :)

[theinquisitor]

I knew about the Klingon language, but I didn't know about the Klingon wikipedia. I heard that you can even get a degree in the language. Futurama did an episode which talked about how Star Trek became a religion. If you look at the devotion of some of the Trekkies, you can see that it's not too much of an exaggeration. They take it more seriously than a lot of people take their religions.

[yancur]

LOL, that may be true. I remember one quote (not the author though :-/) saying something like "That what replaces religion is bound to become one"

And it actually did happen in many communist countries...

[HanifXHier]

Agh! Deanna's a teleporter as well as telepath! Picard's response actually strikes me as slightly more agnostic, but I loved it just the same.

[theinquisitor]

Yeah he sounds pretty agnostic about the true nature of reality itself, but he certainly has a lack of belief in a god. He has described the abandonment of belief in the supernatural as a major achievement of civilisation. Although he has met many entities that could fit some definition of a god. Perhaps it would have been better to call him a 24th century skeptic, I might change the title to that.

[HanifXHier]

True, true. You'd made your point.

Also, I like the new title idea.

[HanifXHier]

That's "You've", contraction of "you" and "have".

...

[Katalyzt]

Aaaah, that is the episode when an alien created avatars that looked like 'Data' and 'Troy'. After meeting one of the 'Douwd' and members of the 'Q' continuum I understand Picard's answer.

Katalyzt