In the middle of a great teaching on Kalachakra Dalai Lama obviously loses his temper when he starts to talk his stand on Shugden issue and talks about ban on the deity.In his speech he is so confused that it does not make any sense- he even accuses Shugden pratitioners of replacing Tsonkapa's teaching consisting of 18 volume books by Shugden practiceThis is what I understood watching the video of Kalachakra teaching. Perhaps of low merits of all sentient beings DLama became so confused?
HH is a bodhisattva, his cause is higher benefit for all, have faith that he knows Shugden is harmful and leads away from the cessation of suffering. Buddhists should not protest or fight, be content and learn from your hardships, but do not allow yourself to be moved. A good Buddhist meditates, studies and expounds dharma, I.e. "The Patience of Ethics: which is, while living in the precepts, not reacting to and having patience with the harmful actions of living beings." May all beings be happy.
true! but the white NKT practicioners dont care about the country and the people were their amazing interessting religion comes from, they care about selfish interessts only
Anyway, I was seeking constructive discussion and tbh, hoping to talk to, uh, Tibetans.
Wrong thread! NOT productive.
I apologise if my tone has gone really cr*ppy. I'll be elsewhere.
You stay here, Varavaken, & attack anyone who dares ask a question. As you do. (And accuse them of being DS/CCP.) Why would I want to exchange hostilities. I directed questions at you because you made statements of fact.
If anyone else would like to discuss this issue in a friendly respectful way, email me.
Beyond citing several international news agency reports & journal articles which acknowledge that DS worshippers are being shunned (I can provide links), I don't know what else to say to you Varavaken. I also don't know who you are & what your biases might be, & anyone who accuses me of a DS worshipper pretending to seek information has obviously lost credibility with me. You've been rude to pretty much everyone on this thread. Not sure why you consider yourself the expert - no longer care.
Open invitation to people interested in/concerned by this topic: I care about TB & also human rights & the future of Tibet. I'm an atheist, not a Shugdenite (if that's a word) or a CCP spy, or whatever. I'm simply trying to debate this subject with people who won't accuse me of being a spy. In particular, if any TIBETANS could share their experiences, rather than Westerners (like myself) & people speaking FOR Tibetans, that would be wonderful. You can email me if you'd prefer. Peace. <3 Tibet.
How is that hypocritical? this is so surreal! So you apparently think I'm a Shugden? Riiight. Here we go: I denounce Dorje Shugden, I do not believe in him, I will never worship him. Is that straightforward enough for you?
I AM sad to see Tibetan disunity. I don't know if you're Tibetan, but I have Tibetan friends. They weren't really into discussing politics, tbh - I'll see if they're wililng to talk about this next time, obviously it is sensitive stuff. I know they'd be pro-DL.
By the way, Varavaken, I don't know who you are, as you won't identify yourself, but the TibetansI've met are lovely & would never claim that my concern over this issue meant I was pretending, or hypocritical (especially without explanation of HOW). The certain amount of Tibetan culture I have experienced, while by no means huge, is not something you or anyone else could take away from me. You tell me off for not knowing more, but then tell me that I'm faking it- NOT helpful
For the below reason, I consider that it's necessary to be somewhat cautious about the Dalai Lama, but not in the way that say the CCP might suggest. I don't think his gesture necessarily means he is any less the legitimate leader of the Tibetans or is to be utterly discredited; but yes, I do think this raises significant questions for those who would *idealise* him or Buddhism. The key relationship with the West may be troubled by this, but unsurprisingly he is human, & humans need to debate.
@VoidDeluxe "American Tibetan-style Buddhists, however, will have to digest the occultism, interschool feuding and occasional violence that have long marked the culture they thought was their model."
Note this does NOT mean that the Dalai Lama cannot rightfully rule the Tibetans as political and religious leader (he's elected) or that their struggle is invalid. At the same time, it never was all roses.
Read more: .time com /time /magazine /article/ 0,9171,988311,00.html#ixzz1YuDdTqYK
have hung out with Chinese AND Tibetans. Am white Australian. Love (but can critique aspects of) both cultures. Am atheist. Believe in Tibetan cause but do not believe a religious leader is beyond reproach.
DL has admitted TB regards people with disabilities as being punished for misdeeds in their previous lifetime. To me that lifted the lid on the Western notion Buddhism as perfectly enlightened philosophy of compassion - even Christianity doesn't go there, thats medieval.
@VoidDeluxe bla bla... as an atheist u will never get at the heart of the problem. only fly around it at the rim like a buzzing fly. u are only in this talk cause u like to hear yourself talk - the disease of the intellectual in a nutshell!
the problem with putting your trust in the intellect is that it cuts u off from the heart! and the fact that u are an atheist is just proof of that.
stop buzzing around and start digging. u only know the surface of things.
@Varavaken - could you also background who you are in this debate & provide some evidence for your claims? Murder, in particular. You mention an AI report, but that is from 13 years ago now. (But may contain useful information, do you know of a link?) That was before this recent action in which Shugden followers (of whom I don't know enough about) were excommunicated.
You claim a CCP conspiracy - can you try & support this, have you come across any evidence? (Possibly difficult/impossible)
@Varavaken - I found 1998 "Time" article "Monks vs Monks" (<google)
"apparently ritual 1997 stabbing of three high anti-Shugden monks in the exile capital of Dharamsala, India. The killers escaped, but Indian police traced a call they made to a pro-Shugden organization in New Delhi.
Shugden activists denounce the crime and deny opponents' claims that they receive funds from the Chinese government. But the Chinese, happy at any exile strife, are restoring Shugden temples in occupied Tibet."
@Varavaken - but it also says "Addressing charges of shunning, threats and even physical abuse against Shugdenites, American Dalai Lama adviser John Ackerly admits that "there have been cases of harassment," all condemned by the High Lama."
It's one thing to shun genuine murderers - but even cultists in the West would still be entitled to shop at the supermarket, etc. The DL after all did used to practice Shugden worship too.
I can see how Tibetan unity requires protection - but. Problems.
first of all only a fully selfrealized being can truly guide others. first he himself must attain spirtual perfection, then he can give advice and make rules.
@hitop109 selfrealization, also called enlightenment by some or cosmic consciouness by others, is what Budha attained and the mark of a true spiritual master. it is a state that is recognized by endless compassion and total lack of fear! only a selfrealized masters actions are harmonious and not harmful.
the rest are just politicians. and they create nothing but trouble.
@CT2507 you do know that the dalai lama is the reincarnation of the buddha of compassion where the buddha of compassion chose to be reincarnated to help others instead of escaping the circle of life and death.....so he is a living buddha
if Dalai Lama put his trust in an oracle...a spirit medium basicaly, to create this great split within his own people, to devide his own people, then first of all he is a slave of the opinion of this medium and incapable of making an individual decision on his own. secondly he is singlehandedly creating unbareable lives for thousands of tibetans... the opposite of compassion. and thirdly he is lying about the whole deal!
@CT2507 How do you feel about the Pope & the Vatican, birth control? vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
Note even therapeutic contraception or abortions (ie if pregnancy would take a mother's life) are forbidden.
They will not even allow gluten-free communion host wafers for those with coeliac disease (for who wheat is literally poison).
I think Catholicism sucks, but do we really hear much fuss about these policies?
@CT2507 Or is your complaint that the DL has been placed on a philosophical pedestal, and that it is apparently considered blasphemous for even non-religious parties to consider questioning one of his policies?
I guess this IS the thing I struggle to accept about TB.
However, TB as we know it would not be what it is without the DL - just like Catholicism wouldn't be Catholicism without the Pope and the Vatican. And the DL is considered divine. (& generally seems a lot nicer!)
@VoidDeluxe my complaint is exactly as i stated and not something else. he is a politician and not a spiritual leader and example - which he likes to pretend to be. and as a politician he can be bought, manipulated or scared into letting his own people down.
I don't agree - he IS their spiritual leader, just as the Pope is of the Catholic Church. It's their religion, its not for me or you to say otherwise!
What is your background to this issue? Are you a Westerner, & are you an atheist?
I would agree that any human is capable of letting others down, & I would expect that he himself would acknowledge this.
Debate seems polarised between "he cannot be questioned" & "he has no viability" - I think both approaches are flawed.
heh, I'm not a man. if you're not tibetan, how would you know? is that informal enough for you?
You can say they're not his spiritual leader all you like, till you're blue in the face, and it obviously won't matter. Categorically, it's for them to say! They're not renoucing him. There's a concerning practice of shunning a minority of Tibetans which is problematic. The Pope exists, so does he. Period.
I didn't say you need my approval. It's ok for us to have different opinions. Peace
@VoidDeluxe it doesnt take a tibetan to know weather a man is false or not. just like i dont need to know u personaly to know that u are very proud of your intelectual ability to discuss any subject. worse.. u believe u have a right to discuss anything because of your oratorical skills. u are arrogant, and in spite of your ability with words and juggling of ideas, u are superficial.
usualy people who are shallow tend to compensate by giving a clever impression.
I have a right to discuss anything because of skills? We are all here discussing the same issue, the above video. As much of the debate involved people accusing each other of being spies & so forth, & no one was actually discussing the idea of Tibetan unity, or whether Westerners are actually having a negative impact on Tibetan buddhism carrying out its own business, then I feel its valid to raise those topics, or ask for evidence that people are spies. Thought we had similar views...
@CT2507 I think my arrogance is just a disappointment that responses are in black and white and no one here seems to have considered whether both 'sides' might have decent points. I would never say I had 'oratorical' skills. I am chatting on a forum. Sorry if you think I have some kind of special ability with words - I would never have assumed I was better with language than anyone else posting here. I'm frustrated one side says "liar" and the other side says "spies", and that's all. I like TB.
@VoidDeluxe no no... your arrogance is not because of the subject being discussed. u brought that with u. thats part of your personality. and u do know that u have an above average skill with words. thats what gives u confidence. u think yourself clever enough to enter a discussion with just about anyone without knowing anything about that person beforehand. thats arrogance, which stems from an overinflated self-confidence.
i was like u 10-13 years back. i recognize the traits immediately.
i don't know how stating my opinion but looking for EVIDENCE is any different from you or Varavaken, but i DO think i have taken up too much space here.
i have an academic background, that doesn't make me a snob. when you were rude to me, i was rude back. period. i'm nice to nice people.
your personal opinion of me is kind of beside the point. i'm mildly perturbed i might come off as a tosser, but i'm more concerned about getting to the truth than your psychoanalysis. thanks though.
The Dalai Lama is the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhistm which is non-sectarian. The DS followers are Gelug sectarians. They´ve formed their own groups now.
They have Chinese support and they follow their own teachers.
And I think you are very familiar with the DS websites.
I looked at a DS website last night, since I read this thread I've done a lot of research. I'm a white atheist in Australia who has been fond of the Tibetan Buddhist culture since I was 14. I've studied Chinese & I've been friends with Tibetan refugees. I have no personal investment in DS buddhism. For what it's worth, I have also been accused of being a "nigger" for standing up for black people, & a "CCP keyboard warrior" for questioning whether Red Guards were cannibals. o_O
Obviously I'm not an expert. Spent at least 36 hours or so researching & debating online an issue I haven't come across before.
I'm familiar, in layman's terms, with a degree of Tibetan culture/history.Due to your accusation that I was "pretending", "hypocritical" & that I was "obviously familiar" I did mentioned checking out a DS website, which I did not go to in order to research the issue as it is a biased source. You spread rumours without substantiating them.
I've literally had more productive discussions with racists.
When you mentioned the murders, I asked for evidence, & when you didn't respond in some time, I spent a considerable amount of time researching the murders, substantiating them from reputable sources, & then posted up the information. Did you bother to read before you flamed?
You could simply have shared information in a friendly manner for the good of the cause.
Love Tibet but this "debate" is fruitless on this thread.
I've literally had more productive discussions with racists.
When you mentioned the murders, I asked for evidence, & when you didn't respond in some time, I spent a considerable amount of time researching the murders, substantiating them from reputable sources, & then posted up the information. Did you bother to read before you flamed?
You could simply have shared information in a friendly manner for the good of the cause.
Love Tibet but this "debate" is fruitless on this thread
Btw, I watched several videos, read a number of journal articles, read up on Nyimgpa&Gelukpa - I certainly couldn't get much info here. Rather than be attacked for interest, I will talk about it with Tibetans the next time I have an opportunity to catch up with them, since they're decent people & would never be so freaking cold & snobby. From experience some will may not want to go into politics, but others will be happy to. Peace.
You are the only person in the last several comments who was defending the DL, so you are the person I zoned in on to tell us more about this situation. You mentioned murders by Shugdens, I asked for evidence from you, but then did my own research & confirmed these murders with a citation. You've made other serious claims, I did ask if you can offer evidence. If you can't, that's fine. What evidence is there of most CCP planning & supression? But no proof is problematic.
@Varavaken my complaint is loud and clear in my post. he is creating a big split among Tibetans unnecesarily with this Dorje Shugden nonsense. bringing more suffering to a people who is already in pain.
he is only the spiritual leader of TB as a proffesion, but in actual fact he does harm to his own people.
@Varavaken the former Karmapa had the potential to be a true spiritual leader... today i dont know if any have true spiritual self realisation and integrity.
@Varavaken i think a lot of tibetans are waking up to the fact that dalai lama is not their friend. he has lost the suport of many thousands of tibetans weather u like it or not.
@TheMightyGuri well, common sense says that DS was not a real problem. and has not been until dalai lama said so.
Chinese infiltrators can be in all parts of TB, not only in the lineage of DS.
dalai lama himself could be working for the Chinese. and in fact i suspect him to actually do so. he is too friendly with the US government and they are only friendly with people they have in their pocket! whom they own or otherwise are in bed with.
dalai lamas teachings are childish. i dont trust him.
@CT2507 now something tells me you're not serious here... talking about common sense and accuse the dalai lama for being in bed with the US and working for china at the same time???? that all makes sense to you?? so tibetans got killed by chinese for not denouncing the dalai lama because?? for fun? a game? a play? that it looks real?
@TheMightyGuri ok... so why do u think that Tibet was punished by the Chinese after the WW2? because they were on the side of Hitler, helping Germany, thats why!
forget the show that has been fed to us for generations about communism (Russia) vs capitalism (USA)
both sides are run by the same elite! which is a fascist elite. once u understand that, things begin to make sense.
take a greater look at things and stop getting caught up in details.
"well, common sense says that DS was not a real problem. and has not been until dalai lama said so"
DS's enlightened nature has been debated since his appearance in the 17th century.... and not until the 14th dalai lama said so, and that is not common sense, that is a fact...
@TheMightyGuri so if DS was demonic in nature, why didn't the 16'th Karmapa talk about that issue and ban it or see to that DS followers were put on the right path?!
and if DS is demonic, then many other Tibetan deities are as well.
@TheMightyGuri yea yea.. u are allowed to practice it, but then u dont belong to the tibetan true community anymore do u!!
stop talking through your arse. u know very well weather u call it a ban or not that is just a word. but the fighting amongst tibetans that is now happening is very real and is because dalai lama has declared DS and its followers to be demonic!
dalai lama knows what he has done and so do u. dont twist words like a stupid politician.
i asked you because i know you're unable to answer that :) so answer it please? and if you do that, answer how tibet was on the side of hitler and how the dalai lama helped germany??
and no, i was born many years later, but cool that you moved to personal insults allready :) is your common sense and knowledge empty allready huh?
of course not!!! my style is to make up things and claims so i can tell others to "investigate" for themselfs when asked for details and if they aint satisfied with that, i start to insult them, because im unable to back up my made up claims
i allready made my own research, and there is nothing like "tibet helped germany" so thats why im curious about that bullshit claim a dumbass like you makes :D do you want me to show my knowledge about tibet and the 3rd reich? why the nazis where interessted in tibet? what they believed etc.?? there is no substance in your "tibetans helped germany" claim, so challenge me please :D
oh and btw... talking about tibet helped germany bullshit, why dont you show us the ties between the nazis and the chinese?? Between 1911 and 1941, cooperation between Germany and China was instrumental in modernizing the industry and the armed forces of the Republic of China prior to the Second Sino-Japanese War :) why not teaching the people about that, which is based no real facts and not claims?
i dont worry LOL i know for a fact that its wrong :) Many high-ranking members of the Nazi regime, including Hitler, but especially Himmler and Hess, held convoluted occult beliefs. Prompted by those beliefs, the Germans sent an official expedition to Tibet between 1938 and 1939 at the invitation of the Tibetan Government to attend the Losar (New Year) celebrations.
Several postwar studies on Nazism and the Occult, such as Trevor Ravenscroft in The Spear of Destiny (1973), have asserted that under the influence of Haushofer and the Thule Society, Germany sent annual expeditions to Tibet from 1926 to 1943. Their mission was first to find and then to maintain contact with the Aryan forefathers in Shambhala and Agharti, hidden subterranean cities beneath the Himalayas
Pabongkha introduced this practice in Gelug tradition (less than a hundred years ago) to assert the domination of the so-called "pure tradition" of Tsongkhapa. That´s when DS became a problem.
DS was a minor worldly spirit before that (with a poor reputation). Not a Buddha.
@CT2507 Don´t use the word "compassion". Please....
The CCP is promoting this practice but the Dalai Lama is not working for the Chinese Communist Party.
This intra-religious conflict has nothing to do with religious persecution. Amnesty International dissmissed these claims 1998.
"None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses which fall within AI´s mandate for action - such as grave violations of fundamental human rights..." etc.
@CT2507 - interested to see your comments in this debate. Can you please background who you are, what you know about the DL and Tibetan Buddhism, and where your passionate response to this springs from? What hypocrisy, specifically, have you noted in the DL's actions (other than the Shugden debate) that have caused you to personally discredit him? Can you background these with evidence if possible? (Try a Google search for newspaper articles, only you know what for.)
@CT2507 The CIA comment was pretty off. I've seen it elsewhere, & it's a shame, as it really discredits your argument.
How would you respond to the Shugden ritual murder I've managed to find a citation for above? it may not be representative of all, but certainly in the West if a religious group committed murders in association with demon worship, they'd be discredited.
If UNITY of the Tibetan people interests you, what would you recommend?
CCP is Chinese Communist Party: you know that now.
i have had wonderful experiences while devoted to venerable Shugden. I think they found the wrong Dalai Lama, the Dalai Lama now is a spirit who wanted control of Tibet, and yearns worship.
"Kelsang Gyatso created NKT to spread Shugdenism all over the world.
NKT is a revised version of Gelug Buddhism and it´s shaped by ONE man - Kelsang Gyatso.
Period.
"All you need to become an NKT teacher is to have faith in Geshe Kelsang and know your Dharma a little bit... An individual´s lack of experience or `realisations´is not an obstacle."
@Varavaken Geshe-la was invited to the u.k to help spread holy Dharma to help the beings of the west. His teacher Trijang Rimpoche who was also the teacher of the DL asked Geshe-la to go to the west and told him to present Buddha's teachings in a way westerners could understand. Dorje Shugden is the protector of the Gulugpa lineage. The DL has the right to decide to no longer practise but he does not have the right to ban a practise. He has caused so much suffering to his people by this ban.
NKT is shaped by ONE man - Geshe Kelsang. A monk who´s been aggressively opposed to the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhism in general. He was expelled from Sera monastery in the 90´s, he´s no longer a part of the Gelug tradition.
Your books are written by this one man.
Westerners don´t even know what DS represents when they join NKT. They prefer to think that it´s mainstream Buddhism. But NKT is a cult.
@Varavaken While I think there is a legitimate cause for concern if people are being shunned, it is starting to sound like the debate we are having is based on Westerners interpretations of Tibetan Buddhism. This is a double edged sword - the questions that Westerners are not asking about NKT is the same ignorant bliss that also leads to a fairly blinkered approach to TB. Westerners want Buddhism to be super NICE. & are simply unaware of Tibetan history of sectarianism.
marsh54: H.H.THE DALAI LAMA IS NOT CLAIMING THE POST OF "KING OF BUDHIST" WHOLE WORLD IS BELIEVING DALAI LAMA IS! EXCEPT FEW SHUKTEN PA WHO IS STRAVING FRM CHINESE BLACK MONEY! THEY ALL ARE SEEMS LIKE A "FROG IN THE POND" COZ THEY ALL HAVE VERY SMALL MINDED N SEEING ONLY THIS BIRTH, THEY ALL ARE IN HELL AFTER DEATH IT IS SOME WHT LKIE LAW OF KARMA.MY ADVICE TO ALL DORJEE SHUKTEN PA IS THAT IT IS NOT A LATE TO LEAVE SHUKTEN, TO HAVE BRIGHTER PRESENT N FUTURE BIRTH. SHUKTEN IS ONLY A GOST!.
I'm a kadampa buddhist and I am not a 'spirit worshipper' I am a regular Buddhist, just like you Tenzin. We don't do anything different. We all want world peace, happiness and freedom from suffering. I feel it a very 'un-buddhist' thing to do, to make so many people around the world feel that they are doing something wrong, just because you 'decide' to ban DS practice.
I wish, there would be peace regarding this subject now.
@Varavaken .. The New Kadampa Tradition is not a cult. Clearly you have never taken the time to understand and experience any of the teachings. . Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not our 'only source of authority', Geshe Kelsang has passed down Je Tsongkhapa's teaching through 22 amazing books that he has written himself. Geshe Kelsang's teachings are the Buddha's teachings, we (the NKT) are practising Dharma, this should be encouraged not framed as a cult.
I´´ve been arguing with DS followers for three years now and I´m getting tired of it.
I don´t think you were familiar with Buddhism or Tibetan Buddhism when you joined this group.
Taking refuge in a worldly protector is not Buddhism. Shugden´s status has been disputed as I´m sure you know. The Gelugpas have agreed to "cut the bond" with this controversial protector.
Go to Geden Tradition´s channel. Listen to what they say.
@Varavaken If you are getting tired of arguing with DS followers then I suggest that you stop doing so. What you're doing is shallow minded and offensive. People have the right to worship/seek refuge/ in what ever they like and I really have to say if you've done this nasty messaging to people for three years you've been wasting 3 years of your life for nothing. DS practitioners are passionate about it, and will not change that..
@Varavaken It is a sad but true fact that because of the invasion of Tibet Tibetan Dharma is now spread world wide. Of course I do not agree with what China has done, but what is most important is that all living beings have the oppotunity to escape samsara through Lord Buddha's teachings. If the Tibetans go back to Tibet they are still in Samsara, so they still have no freedom. Tibetans asked Geshe-la to help them with the DS issue and only he had the guts to stand up to DL.
@Varavaken Also, your mind must be in such a negative place if you keep coming on youtube to argue with innocent people. I suggest maybe you practice a little bit of Dharma yourself and gain some inner peace.
And, I want to tell you, I studied Buddhism for 2 years at A Level and got an A. And I'm now doing a BA in it at university. I know a LOT about Buddhism / tibetan buddhism / mahayana / theravada..and I knew a lot before I joined the NKT. It was my choice..hmmmm
@MsOntological I've visited the local NKT center a few times, though not as a member . . . based on what I saw in the gatherings and what little I've read of NKT literature, the Kadampa tradition does not seem to put any form of worship of (or prayer to) Dorje Shugden front and center, so to speak; instead, the primary focus seems to be on teaching Buddhist ethics and Buddhist philosophical principles, perhaps combined with a bit of honorary deference to Shakyamuni Buddha. Is that about right?
@Tigerpaws9097826 Yeah that sounds about right. Obviously, there is sooo much more going on except the practice of Dorje Shugden prayers. We do rely on Dorje Shugden for protection, but amongst that we make offerings to all the Buddhas especially Je Tsongkhapa (the guy who passed on Atisha's teaching and developed Kadampa). We also praise Shakyamuni Buddha and he has his own prayer in the form of a beautiful song which we sing/chant at the beginning of meditation classes.
@Tigerpaws9097826 ...I have to be honest, there IS Dorje Shugden reliance and practice but it is very much hidden amongst other prayers for other buddhas. Kadampa Buddhist place a lot of emphasis on the wellbeing of others and there is a strong theme of compassion for other people in teachings. Dorje Shugden practice is hardly even noticed in classes! However, the prayer for him is beautiful and creates very positive minds. All Dorje Shugden does is protect Je Tsongkhapas tradition. :)
@MsOntological - I know from your name you're a Western woman, as am I. While I see and agree with your point (debating not hassling), I am thinking that part of the problem here may lie with *Western* expectations of what are Buddhist and unBuddhist things to do, based on religious teaching alone. *Tibetan* interpretations of pragmatic Buddhist leadership may have plenty to do with Tibet's actual history (not just its current political situation) in which sectarianism played a defining role.
Because of China, the world has to absorb thibetans coming right from the middle ages. Most thibetans I have met are culturally retarded disrespectful scum. At the same time, it might be simply the effect of loosing ones roots. Still I beg China to control this fucking borders and stop this "things" polluting the western countries.
Now dala lama is retired. I. Tibetans view he should be most peotratic. If he is he should come and join freedom movement by participating in various hunger strike and peace march like other Tibetans citizens do. Instead of enjoing king life style.
ivivism - i've been surfing around and see you spreading these accusations everywhere. Like studyreligions says - show some proof dude! Death threats and abuse are serious - they need to be reported to the police. Unless all this is made up of course. Who beat you up? Spread THAT around, rather than these woolly accusations! I've googled Tsem Tulku and read his stuff. I don't see anything there that contradicts Buddha's teachings. He seems a popular dude and not worshipping any cult.
@Varavaken i think u might in doubt! that's a good question . if tsem tulku is not under influence n he will resarch about shukten n fact is automatically come on ground. m sure he will rally opposed to practice. i think ur in doubt don't go blindly on that , u just resarch it n m sure u'll never under shukten. that is my advice. mostly who is working under shukten is under influence or sicking black money frm china!
The Tsem Tulku Organization runs wwwdorjeshugdencom, they are also the ones dropping DS pamphlets all over Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. People who leave the organization or otherwise find out their secret are subject to abuse and death threats. Kechara House is a dangerous cult that has betrayed His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan Community, and most of all, Gaden Shartse Monastery. Please circulate this information far and wide.
The Tsem Tulku Organization runs wwwdorjeshugdencom, they are also the ones dropping DS pamphlets all over Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. People who leave the organization or otherwise find out their secret are subject to abuse and death threats. Kechara House is a dangerous cult that has betrayed His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan Community, and most of all, Gaden Shartse Monastery. Please circulate this information far and wide.
Guys understand that dala lama wants to unified saka,ningma,geluk and kaguk. Then he wants to be a leader of all this sect. But he feel that particularly shugden partioner will never mixed with other sect espacialy nigma so started banning shugden by accusing all the that things u can imagine. But he forget one individual can study every thing. If a docter study engenering, archetech and etc. Every thing he can be nothing good at all.
For heaven´s sake - the Dalai Lama IS the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism,( four schools, five with the Bön tradition). Just look it up.
One of the most outstanding masters of the 20th century was Chökyi Lodrö. He had authority on all four traditions and was a holder of all lineages. Yes - it is possible.
Non sectarianism is NOT about merging the traditions.
If u guys need proof that dala is encoureging hayrated. Look at the two bigest monastries of tibet. Gadan and set. from thousand years monk leave together now they e sparated and they even hate each other suprisingly dala praies his follower for ostricized
Every problem u have to look side. Weather china, Tibet or middle east issue. In this issue to I look at both side. So to me dala lama flowers hate shugden fllower for no reSon. So they just lablled shugdwn follwer r getting paid by Chinese . Come on if u know the person name speak up u can't blame all shugden fllower.
I don't no religion much. But suprice me. Even in 21 century man who look as a champion of tolerance r isolating their own people who share the same histroy and sufring from china just becoz of their befief. I lost my love becoz of this stupid ban. Her parents don't want her to marry me. Becoz I born in shugden partioner family.
The Tsem Tulku Organization runs wwwdorjeshugdencom, they are also the ones dropping DS pamphlets all over Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. People who leave the organization or otherwise find out their secret are subject to abuse and death threats. Kechara House is a dangerous cult that has betrayed His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan Community, and most of all, Gaden Shartse Monastery. Please circulate this information far and wide.
@ivivism Please provide proof of what you claim. Buddhism is compassion and tolerance, not blind accusations, slander and hate. I appreciate that you are following His Holiness by not practicing Shugden, but he does not endorse hate and claims without evidence.
@ivivism My apologizes then. I'll just call you an underdog spirit with no name who likes to eat sharp pudding with sincerity. I'm sure there's more than that. Why do you not provide proof for your claims? All you are doing is posting everywhere and starting rumors. If there is really something wrong Kechara is doing then prove it. How does going around accusing people being the Shugden police help your practice? Is this the 7th perfection, accusing others? Do what really matters. 6 perfections.
@studyreligions You think you're stupid shugden group online can control people. But here in KL me and my family were threatened by Tsem's students. YOU UNDERSTAND?! THEY HAVE BEEN STALKING MY FAMILY FOR 6 MONTHS! JUST TO KEEP ME FROM TELLING PEOPLE! I am not dealing with this anymore! You can't threaten me anymore! You are not Buddhist! Tsem Tulku is a criminal cult leader and going to hell!
@ivivism I am not trying to control anybody. All I am asking is for proof of what you claim. Instead I get insults and more accusations. I don't practice Shugden but I don't hate those who practice Shugden either. I have learned to respect the religious choices of others. This is what I feel His Holiness teaches. What you say and how you act reflects back on your Guru. If you are a student of His Holiness then act like one.
Fucking hypocrite Liar
spdsboiboi86 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
In the middle of a great teaching on Kalachakra Dalai Lama obviously loses his temper when he starts to talk his stand on Shugden issue and talks about ban on the deity.In his speech he is so confused that it does not make any sense- he even accuses Shugden pratitioners of replacing Tsonkapa's teaching consisting of 18 volume books by Shugden practiceThis is what I understood watching the video of Kalachakra teaching. Perhaps of low merits of all sentient beings DLama became so confused?
shugdenusa12 1 month ago
Watch You Tube: Save Tibet from the Dalai Lama!
TheSpeaknoevil 3 months ago
Dorje Shugden is not a spirit, but rather a fully enlightened Buddha. The practice is very holy. Thank you for your kindness Dalai Lama.
waderslc 3 months ago
@waderslc
Tibetan Buddhists and the majority of Gelug lamas disagree with you.
Varavaken 3 months ago
HH is a bodhisattva, his cause is higher benefit for all, have faith that he knows Shugden is harmful and leads away from the cessation of suffering. Buddhists should not protest or fight, be content and learn from your hardships, but do not allow yourself to be moved. A good Buddhist meditates, studies and expounds dharma, I.e. "The Patience of Ethics: which is, while living in the precepts, not reacting to and having patience with the harmful actions of living beings." May all beings be happy.
kensei85 5 months ago
Tibetans monks inside Tibet are protesting Beijing´s rule. In the last six months three monks have set themselves on fire.
Kirti monastery!
More important than this old dispute.
Varavaken 5 months ago
@Varavaken
true! but the white NKT practicioners dont care about the country and the people were their amazing interessting religion comes from, they care about selfish interessts only
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
China didn´t cause this conflict but are very much involved in it now.
The Shugden society in India are collaborators with the PRC.
Varavaken 5 months ago
Anyway, I was seeking constructive discussion and tbh, hoping to talk to, uh, Tibetans.
Wrong thread! NOT productive.
I apologise if my tone has gone really cr*ppy. I'll be elsewhere.
You stay here, Varavaken, & attack anyone who dares ask a question. As you do. (And accuse them of being DS/CCP.) Why would I want to exchange hostilities. I directed questions at you because you made statements of fact.
If anyone else would like to discuss this issue in a friendly respectful way, email me.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
Beyond citing several international news agency reports & journal articles which acknowledge that DS worshippers are being shunned (I can provide links), I don't know what else to say to you Varavaken. I also don't know who you are & what your biases might be, & anyone who accuses me of a DS worshipper pretending to seek information has obviously lost credibility with me. You've been rude to pretty much everyone on this thread. Not sure why you consider yourself the expert - no longer care.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
You are spreading so much disinformation, VoidDeluxe.
The whole Gelug school has not been"expelled from the community".
What a ridiculous statement. You´re obviously not interwested in the truth.
Varavaken 5 months ago
Open invitation to people interested in/concerned by this topic: I care about TB & also human rights & the future of Tibet. I'm an atheist, not a Shugdenite (if that's a word) or a CCP spy, or whatever. I'm simply trying to debate this subject with people who won't accuse me of being a spy. In particular, if any TIBETANS could share their experiences, rather than Westerners (like myself) & people speaking FOR Tibetans, that would be wonderful. You can email me if you'd prefer. Peace. <3 Tibet.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
I´ve read your comments, VoidDeluxe...
"I´m sad to see any Tibetan disunity".
What a hypocrite you are...
Varavaken 5 months ago
@Varavaken
How is that hypocritical? this is so surreal! So you apparently think I'm a Shugden? Riiight. Here we go: I denounce Dorje Shugden, I do not believe in him, I will never worship him. Is that straightforward enough for you?
I AM sad to see Tibetan disunity. I don't know if you're Tibetan, but I have Tibetan friends. They weren't really into discussing politics, tbh - I'll see if they're wililng to talk about this next time, obviously it is sensitive stuff. I know they'd be pro-DL.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@Varavaken
By the way, Varavaken, I don't know who you are, as you won't identify yourself, but the TibetansI've met are lovely & would never claim that my concern over this issue meant I was pretending, or hypocritical (especially without explanation of HOW). The certain amount of Tibetan culture I have experienced, while by no means huge, is not something you or anyone else could take away from me. You tell me off for not knowing more, but then tell me that I'm faking it- NOT helpful
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
Comment removed
Varavaken 5 months ago
For the below reason, I consider that it's necessary to be somewhat cautious about the Dalai Lama, but not in the way that say the CCP might suggest. I don't think his gesture necessarily means he is any less the legitimate leader of the Tibetans or is to be utterly discredited; but yes, I do think this raises significant questions for those who would *idealise* him or Buddhism. The key relationship with the West may be troubled by this, but unsurprisingly he is human, & humans need to debate.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@VoidDeluxe "American Tibetan-style Buddhists, however, will have to digest the occultism, interschool feuding and occasional violence that have long marked the culture they thought was their model."
Note this does NOT mean that the Dalai Lama cannot rightfully rule the Tibetans as political and religious leader (he's elected) or that their struggle is invalid. At the same time, it never was all roses.
Read more: .time com /time /magazine /article/ 0,9171,988311,00.html#ixzz1YuDdTqYK
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@Varavaken&CT2507:
have hung out with Chinese AND Tibetans. Am white Australian. Love (but can critique aspects of) both cultures. Am atheist. Believe in Tibetan cause but do not believe a religious leader is beyond reproach.
DL has admitted TB regards people with disabilities as being punished for misdeeds in their previous lifetime. To me that lifted the lid on the Western notion Buddhism as perfectly enlightened philosophy of compassion - even Christianity doesn't go there, thats medieval.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@VoidDeluxe bla bla... as an atheist u will never get at the heart of the problem. only fly around it at the rim like a buzzing fly. u are only in this talk cause u like to hear yourself talk - the disease of the intellectual in a nutshell!
the problem with putting your trust in the intellect is that it cuts u off from the heart! and the fact that u are an atheist is just proof of that.
stop buzzing around and start digging. u only know the surface of things.
CT2507 5 months ago
Comment removed
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
Judge them from their actions, CT2507.
They are trators and murderers.
I´m glad their attempt five years ago was prevented.
But they did get away with the triple murder in Dharamsala 1997.
Varavaken 5 months ago
@Varavaken
Traitors and murderers...
Varavaken 5 months ago
@Varavaken - could you also background who you are in this debate & provide some evidence for your claims? Murder, in particular. You mention an AI report, but that is from 13 years ago now. (But may contain useful information, do you know of a link?) That was before this recent action in which Shugden followers (of whom I don't know enough about) were excommunicated.
You claim a CCP conspiracy - can you try & support this, have you come across any evidence? (Possibly difficult/impossible)
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@Varavaken - I found 1998 "Time" article "Monks vs Monks" (<google)
"apparently ritual 1997 stabbing of three high anti-Shugden monks in the exile capital of Dharamsala, India. The killers escaped, but Indian police traced a call they made to a pro-Shugden organization in New Delhi.
Shugden activists denounce the crime and deny opponents' claims that they receive funds from the Chinese government. But the Chinese, happy at any exile strife, are restoring Shugden temples in occupied Tibet."
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@Varavaken - but it also says "Addressing charges of shunning, threats and even physical abuse against Shugdenites, American Dalai Lama adviser John Ackerly admits that "there have been cases of harassment," all condemned by the High Lama."
It's one thing to shun genuine murderers - but even cultists in the West would still be entitled to shop at the supermarket, etc. The DL after all did used to practice Shugden worship too.
I can see how Tibetan unity requires protection - but. Problems.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
Comment removed
Varavaken 5 months ago
These sectarians (a minority) are now seperated from Gelug school.
They can no longer influence Tibetan Buddhism because they are not a part of it.
When their only ally - the CCP - falls apart, they will have no support,
Varavaken 6 months ago
a blind leader attempting to lead others.
first of all only a fully selfrealized being can truly guide others. first he himself must attain spirtual perfection, then he can give advice and make rules.
one who is full of doubts and confusions can not.
...such a hypocrite!
CT2507 6 months ago
@CT2507 what do you mean by self realized?
hitop109 5 months ago
@hitop109 selfrealization, also called enlightenment by some or cosmic consciouness by others, is what Budha attained and the mark of a true spiritual master. it is a state that is recognized by endless compassion and total lack of fear! only a selfrealized masters actions are harmonious and not harmful.
the rest are just politicians. and they create nothing but trouble.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507 you do know that the dalai lama is the reincarnation of the buddha of compassion where the buddha of compassion chose to be reincarnated to help others instead of escaping the circle of life and death.....so he is a living buddha
hitop109 5 months ago
if Dalai Lama put his trust in an oracle...a spirit medium basicaly, to create this great split within his own people, to devide his own people, then first of all he is a slave of the opinion of this medium and incapable of making an individual decision on his own. secondly he is singlehandedly creating unbareable lives for thousands of tibetans... the opposite of compassion. and thirdly he is lying about the whole deal!
and this guy got the nobel prize?!?
shamefull!!
CT2507 6 months ago
@CT2507 How do you feel about the Pope & the Vatican, birth control? vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
Note even therapeutic contraception or abortions (ie if pregnancy would take a mother's life) are forbidden.
They will not even allow gluten-free communion host wafers for those with coeliac disease (for who wheat is literally poison).
I think Catholicism sucks, but do we really hear much fuss about these policies?
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@VoidDeluxe why do u care for these issues anyway... u are an atheist!
probably catholicism thinks u suck.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
isnt he allowed to care about that issue just because he's an atheist?? i am atheist too, so??? does that mean im not allowed to be interessted?
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@CT2507 Or is your complaint that the DL has been placed on a philosophical pedestal, and that it is apparently considered blasphemous for even non-religious parties to consider questioning one of his policies?
I guess this IS the thing I struggle to accept about TB.
However, TB as we know it would not be what it is without the DL - just like Catholicism wouldn't be Catholicism without the Pope and the Vatican. And the DL is considered divine. (& generally seems a lot nicer!)
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@VoidDeluxe my complaint is exactly as i stated and not something else. he is a politician and not a spiritual leader and example - which he likes to pretend to be. and as a politician he can be bought, manipulated or scared into letting his own people down.
people mistake his "act" for humbleness!
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
I don't agree - he IS their spiritual leader, just as the Pope is of the Catholic Church. It's their religion, its not for me or you to say otherwise!
What is your background to this issue? Are you a Westerner, & are you an atheist?
I would agree that any human is capable of letting others down, & I would expect that he himself would acknowledge this.
Debate seems polarised between "he cannot be questioned" & "he has no viability" - I think both approaches are flawed.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@VoidDeluxe i am sure thousands of tibetans no longer see him as their leader!
and it is for me to say "otherwise" if i have eyes to see. i dont need your approval, mr. "intelctual debate" :)
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
heh, I'm not a man. if you're not tibetan, how would you know? is that informal enough for you?
You can say they're not his spiritual leader all you like, till you're blue in the face, and it obviously won't matter. Categorically, it's for them to say! They're not renoucing him. There's a concerning practice of shunning a minority of Tibetans which is problematic. The Pope exists, so does he. Period.
I didn't say you need my approval. It's ok for us to have different opinions. Peace
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@VoidDeluxe it doesnt take a tibetan to know weather a man is false or not. just like i dont need to know u personaly to know that u are very proud of your intelectual ability to discuss any subject. worse.. u believe u have a right to discuss anything because of your oratorical skills. u are arrogant, and in spite of your ability with words and juggling of ideas, u are superficial.
usualy people who are shallow tend to compensate by giving a clever impression.
is that a good reading u think?
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
I have a right to discuss anything because of skills? We are all here discussing the same issue, the above video. As much of the debate involved people accusing each other of being spies & so forth, & no one was actually discussing the idea of Tibetan unity, or whether Westerners are actually having a negative impact on Tibetan buddhism carrying out its own business, then I feel its valid to raise those topics, or ask for evidence that people are spies. Thought we had similar views...
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@CT2507 I think my arrogance is just a disappointment that responses are in black and white and no one here seems to have considered whether both 'sides' might have decent points. I would never say I had 'oratorical' skills. I am chatting on a forum. Sorry if you think I have some kind of special ability with words - I would never have assumed I was better with language than anyone else posting here. I'm frustrated one side says "liar" and the other side says "spies", and that's all. I like TB.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@VoidDeluxe no no... your arrogance is not because of the subject being discussed. u brought that with u. thats part of your personality. and u do know that u have an above average skill with words. thats what gives u confidence. u think yourself clever enough to enter a discussion with just about anyone without knowing anything about that person beforehand. thats arrogance, which stems from an overinflated self-confidence.
i was like u 10-13 years back. i recognize the traits immediately.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
i don't know how stating my opinion but looking for EVIDENCE is any different from you or Varavaken, but i DO think i have taken up too much space here.
i have an academic background, that doesn't make me a snob. when you were rude to me, i was rude back. period. i'm nice to nice people.
your personal opinion of me is kind of beside the point. i'm mildly perturbed i might come off as a tosser, but i'm more concerned about getting to the truth than your psychoanalysis. thanks though.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@VoidDeluxe lol... seems i struck a nerve. could be that my psychoanalysis was pretty close to home after all.
not that i am interested in your person in any way. i was just out to make a point.
also, u started with being rude to me... not the other way around. u started to get personal. so dont come crying.
and u have an acadamic background... hehe... i was wondering how many replies it would take u to play out your "intellectual license" card!... lol
5 replies!! thats how many! :))
CT2507 5 months ago
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@VoidDeluxe lol... seems i struck a nerve. could be that my psychoanalysis was pretty close to home after all.
not that i am interested in your person in any way. i was just out to make a point.
also, u started with being rude to me... not the other way around. u started to get personal. so dont come crying.
and u have an acadamic background... hehe... i was wondering how many replies it would take u to play out your "intellectual license" card!... lol
5 replies!! thats how many! :))
CT2507 5 months ago
@VoidDeluxe
The Dalai Lama is the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhistm which is non-sectarian. The DS followers are Gelug sectarians. They´ve formed their own groups now.
They have Chinese support and they follow their own teachers.
And I think you are very familiar with the DS websites.
Stop pretending.
Varavaken 5 months ago
@Varavaken
I looked at a DS website last night, since I read this thread I've done a lot of research. I'm a white atheist in Australia who has been fond of the Tibetan Buddhist culture since I was 14. I've studied Chinese & I've been friends with Tibetan refugees. I have no personal investment in DS buddhism. For what it's worth, I have also been accused of being a "nigger" for standing up for black people, & a "CCP keyboard warrior" for questioning whether Red Guards were cannibals. o_O
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@VoidDeluxe
Yes, I´ve made serious claims.
I´ve mentioned the triple murder in Dharamsala 1997. (The suspected murderers fled to China.)
And I´ve mentioned a planned attack that was prevented five or six ago years ago.
I don´t know what happened to the seven-member-team from China´s Tibet.
Do you?
You´ve visited one DS website? Is that your idea of doing "a lot of research"?
Varavaken 5 months ago
@Varavaken
Obviously I'm not an expert. Spent at least 36 hours or so researching & debating online an issue I haven't come across before.
I'm familiar, in layman's terms, with a degree of Tibetan culture/history.Due to your accusation that I was "pretending", "hypocritical" & that I was "obviously familiar" I did mentioned checking out a DS website, which I did not go to in order to research the issue as it is a biased source. You spread rumours without substantiating them.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@VoidDeluxe
36 hours is nothing.
This intra-religious conflict is complicated.
Listen to both sides.
Learn about China´s involvement.
The leader of the Indian-based DS society has been collaborating with China for at least twelve years now.
Varavaken 5 months ago
@Varavaken
I've literally had more productive discussions with racists.
When you mentioned the murders, I asked for evidence, & when you didn't respond in some time, I spent a considerable amount of time researching the murders, substantiating them from reputable sources, & then posted up the information. Did you bother to read before you flamed?
You could simply have shared information in a friendly manner for the good of the cause.
Love Tibet but this "debate" is fruitless on this thread.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
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@Varavaken
I've literally had more productive discussions with racists.
When you mentioned the murders, I asked for evidence, & when you didn't respond in some time, I spent a considerable amount of time researching the murders, substantiating them from reputable sources, & then posted up the information. Did you bother to read before you flamed?
You could simply have shared information in a friendly manner for the good of the cause.
Love Tibet but this "debate" is fruitless on this thread
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@Varavaken
Btw, I watched several videos, read a number of journal articles, read up on Nyimgpa&Gelukpa - I certainly couldn't get much info here. Rather than be attacked for interest, I will talk about it with Tibetans the next time I have an opportunity to catch up with them, since they're decent people & would never be so freaking cold & snobby. From experience some will may not want to go into politics, but others will be happy to. Peace.
I don't know what became of the murderers yet.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@Varavaken
You are the only person in the last several comments who was defending the DL, so you are the person I zoned in on to tell us more about this situation. You mentioned murders by Shugdens, I asked for evidence from you, but then did my own research & confirmed these murders with a citation. You've made other serious claims, I did ask if you can offer evidence. If you can't, that's fine. What evidence is there of most CCP planning & supression? But no proof is problematic.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@CT2507
You don´t like the Dalai Lama institution.
Since the 5th Dalai Lama the Dalai Lamas have had a dual role (political and religious).
This have changed. So what are you complaining about?
He´s still the spiritual leader of TB.
Varavaken 5 months ago
@Varavaken my complaint is loud and clear in my post. he is creating a big split among Tibetans unnecesarily with this Dorje Shugden nonsense. bringing more suffering to a people who is already in pain.
he is only the spiritual leader of TB as a proffesion, but in actual fact he does harm to his own people.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
The DS activists follow instructions from the Chinese Communist Party.
That is harmful.
Who is the real spiritual leader of TB according to you? Chinese Panchen?.
Varavaken 5 months ago
@Varavaken the former Karmapa had the potential to be a true spiritual leader... today i dont know if any have true spiritual self realisation and integrity.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
The spiritual leader of TB is the Dalai Lama.
Tibetans inside and outside Tibet have faith in him.
The Dalai Lama is fully supported in his view by the monastic communities.
That´s the way it is, whether you like it or not.
Varavaken 5 months ago
@Varavaken i think a lot of tibetans are waking up to the fact that dalai lama is not their friend. he has lost the suport of many thousands of tibetans weather u like it or not.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
The notorious DS activists follow the orders of the CCP.
Terrorist methods...
Varavaken 5 months ago
@Varavaken and they have done so for hundreds of years?! why haven't the former leaders and Karmapas banned the practice of DS?
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
i think this is too far behind to find out
the question should be: why was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso expelled from the monastery???
lets research that?
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri well, common sense says that DS was not a real problem. and has not been until dalai lama said so.
Chinese infiltrators can be in all parts of TB, not only in the lineage of DS.
dalai lama himself could be working for the Chinese. and in fact i suspect him to actually do so. he is too friendly with the US government and they are only friendly with people they have in their pocket! whom they own or otherwise are in bed with.
dalai lamas teachings are childish. i dont trust him.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507 now something tells me you're not serious here... talking about common sense and accuse the dalai lama for being in bed with the US and working for china at the same time???? that all makes sense to you?? so tibetans got killed by chinese for not denouncing the dalai lama because?? for fun? a game? a play? that it looks real?
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri ok... so why do u think that Tibet was punished by the Chinese after the WW2? because they were on the side of Hitler, helping Germany, thats why!
forget the show that has been fed to us for generations about communism (Russia) vs capitalism (USA)
both sides are run by the same elite! which is a fascist elite. once u understand that, things begin to make sense.
take a greater look at things and stop getting caught up in details.
CT2507 5 months ago
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@CT2507 "because they were on the side of Hitler, helping Germany, thats why!"
wow... common sense... can you explain how tibet was on the side of hitler and how they actually "helped" germany??? :) please explain
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@CT2507
"well, common sense says that DS was not a real problem. and has not been until dalai lama said so"
DS's enlightened nature has been debated since his appearance in the 17th century.... and not until the 14th dalai lama said so, and that is not common sense, that is a fact...
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri so if DS was demonic in nature, why didn't the 16'th Karmapa talk about that issue and ban it or see to that DS followers were put on the right path?!
and if DS is demonic, then many other Tibetan deities are as well.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
what does a ban mean to you?? that you're not allowed to practice it? then there is no ban, right? :)
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri u know what dalai lama has caused... dont try and twist words like dalai lama did. thats just hypocrisy!
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
you said the dalai lama banned it, not me! but actually you're allowed to practice it, therefore there is no ban
thats not hypocrisy, that is a fact! and another fact is, that you're lying, since you claim there is a ban, so stop lying??
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri yea yea.. u are allowed to practice it, but then u dont belong to the tibetan true community anymore do u!!
stop talking through your arse. u know very well weather u call it a ban or not that is just a word. but the fighting amongst tibetans that is now happening is very real and is because dalai lama has declared DS and its followers to be demonic!
dalai lama knows what he has done and so do u. dont twist words like a stupid politician.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
what is the "true tibetan community" may i ask you?? i know you're mad allready but man i wanna use my common sense here ;)
again, it began in the 17th century and not couple of years ago...
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri figure it out yourself if u really are interested.
what began in the 17'th century... your stupidity?
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
i asked you because i know you're unable to answer that :) so answer it please? and if you do that, answer how tibet was on the side of hitler and how the dalai lama helped germany??
and no, i was born many years later, but cool that you moved to personal insults allready :) is your common sense and knowledge empty allready huh?
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri investigate for yourself how tibet was punished for helping hitler. i didnt say dalai lama was helping hitler. u assumed that.
yea, my common sense is empty for u.
so from now on its suck my dick for u.
and while u are at it have a go at my sweaty balls too.. they are especially salty these days!
is that more your style, friendo!?
cheers .. :))
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
of course not!!! my style is to make up things and claims so i can tell others to "investigate" for themselfs when asked for details and if they aint satisfied with that, i start to insult them, because im unable to back up my made up claims
:) friendo LOL
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri thats what i thought...
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
now you're lying again :) dont fool us here and trying to make us believe that you were thinking...
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@CT2507
"because they were on the side of Hitler, helping Germany"
how was tibet helping germany??? can you at LEAST back up that claim by yourself, mr. common sense?? :)
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri sure i can. but im not going to. do your own research.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
i allready made my own research, and there is nothing like "tibet helped germany" so thats why im curious about that bullshit claim a dumbass like you makes :D do you want me to show my knowledge about tibet and the 3rd reich? why the nazis where interessted in tibet? what they believed etc.?? there is no substance in your "tibetans helped germany" claim, so challenge me please :D
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@CT2507
oh and btw... talking about tibet helped germany bullshit, why dont you show us the ties between the nazis and the chinese?? Between 1911 and 1941, cooperation between Germany and China was instrumental in modernizing the industry and the armed forces of the Republic of China prior to the Second Sino-Japanese War :) why not teaching the people about that, which is based no real facts and not claims?
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri all the facts are out there. u do a research if u are interested.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
i know the facts :) but do you?
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri dont u worry about what i know.
CT2507 5 months ago
@CT2507
i dont worry LOL i know for a fact that its wrong :) Many high-ranking members of the Nazi regime, including Hitler, but especially Himmler and Hess, held convoluted occult beliefs. Prompted by those beliefs, the Germans sent an official expedition to Tibet between 1938 and 1939 at the invitation of the Tibetan Government to attend the Losar (New Year) celebrations.
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
Several postwar studies on Nazism and the Occult, such as Trevor Ravenscroft in The Spear of Destiny (1973), have asserted that under the influence of Haushofer and the Thule Society, Germany sent annual expeditions to Tibet from 1926 to 1943. Their mission was first to find and then to maintain contact with the Aryan forefathers in Shambhala and Agharti, hidden subterranean cities beneath the Himalayas
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@TheMightyGuri
Underground nazi mountain cities.
SaviorThree 4 months ago
@SaviorThree
interessting :) some sources for that???
TheMightyGuri 4 months ago
@CT2507
there are even some videos about that on youtube ;)
watch?v=3FuoYg3_WP0&t=5m33s there starts the interessting part why they were interessted in tibet
but you can watch the whole thing if you want to ^^
TheMightyGuri 5 months ago
@CT2507
Why on earth are you talking about the 16th Karmapa?
What is your point???
Varavaken 5 months ago
@CT2507
Pabongkha introduced this practice in Gelug tradition (less than a hundred years ago) to assert the domination of the so-called "pure tradition" of Tsongkhapa. That´s when DS became a problem.
DS was a minor worldly spirit before that (with a poor reputation). Not a Buddha.
You know about this dispute.
Varavaken 5 months ago
the Dalai Lama is beginning to show his true face in this conflict!
he has nothing to do with compassion. he is a false snake.
nothing to do with being a Bodhisattva and working for the benefit of others. but only for the concern of himself and his own ass.
he is the main reason for this conflict
i wouldnt be surprised if he is a CIA agent.
CIA are good at creating figures like him all over the world to devide a people and destabilize an entire region!
CT2507 6 months ago
@CT2507 Don´t use the word "compassion". Please....
The CCP is promoting this practice but the Dalai Lama is not working for the Chinese Communist Party.
This intra-religious conflict has nothing to do with religious persecution. Amnesty International dissmissed these claims 1998.
"None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses which fall within AI´s mandate for action - such as grave violations of fundamental human rights..." etc.
Stop repeating CCP lies.
Varavaken 6 months ago
@Varavaken what lies.. what are u talking about.
im judging dalai lama from his own actions, not from hearsay. i dont know any CCP.
CT2507 6 months ago
@CT2507
I know the slogans.
Varavaken 6 months ago
@Varavaken good for u.
CT2507 6 months ago
@CT2507 - interested to see your comments in this debate. Can you please background who you are, what you know about the DL and Tibetan Buddhism, and where your passionate response to this springs from? What hypocrisy, specifically, have you noted in the DL's actions (other than the Shugden debate) that have caused you to personally discredit him? Can you background these with evidence if possible? (Try a Google search for newspaper articles, only you know what for.)
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
@CT2507 The CIA comment was pretty off. I've seen it elsewhere, & it's a shame, as it really discredits your argument.
How would you respond to the Shugden ritual murder I've managed to find a citation for above? it may not be representative of all, but certainly in the West if a religious group committed murders in association with demon worship, they'd be discredited.
If UNITY of the Tibetan people interests you, what would you recommend?
CCP is Chinese Communist Party: you know that now.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
i have had wonderful experiences while devoted to venerable Shugden. I think they found the wrong Dalai Lama, the Dalai Lama now is a spirit who wanted control of Tibet, and yearns worship.
TheUnemployedsamurai 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
long live hh the dalai lama inorder to serve living beings!!
thuplha1 6 months ago
DS activists have caused a lot of suffering in Tibetan settlements in India.
They´ve been involved in crimes and murder.
Varavaken 7 months ago
The New Kadampa Tradition Buddhists are Gelug Buddhists.
And that is all.
MsOntological 7 months ago
@MsOntological
"Kelsang Gyatso created NKT to spread Shugdenism all over the world.
NKT is a revised version of Gelug Buddhism and it´s shaped by ONE man - Kelsang Gyatso.
Period.
"All you need to become an NKT teacher is to have faith in Geshe Kelsang and know your Dharma a little bit... An individual´s lack of experience or `realisations´is not an obstacle."
Varavaken 7 months ago
@Varavaken Geshe-la was invited to the u.k to help spread holy Dharma to help the beings of the west. His teacher Trijang Rimpoche who was also the teacher of the DL asked Geshe-la to go to the west and told him to present Buddha's teachings in a way westerners could understand. Dorje Shugden is the protector of the Gulugpa lineage. The DL has the right to decide to no longer practise but he does not have the right to ban a practise. He has caused so much suffering to his people by this ban.
nashster1 7 months ago
@nashster1
The majority of the Gelug lamas and monks agree with the Dalai Lama.
They don´t want this practise to continue. You know this.
Pabongkha introduced this practise to promote Gelug sectarianism.
There was no DS in Gelug tradition before Pabongkha.
The 13th Dalai Lama was opposed to it. But after he died (1933) Pabongkha started to spread it.
He broke his promise to the 13th Dalai Lama.
Varavaken 7 months ago
it is so sad that so many people on had their religion shaped by this one man. . .
He believes / does one thing and you all follow..even if it may not be the right thing.
This is why you do not mix religion and politics.
MsOntological 7 months ago
@MsOntological
NKT is shaped by ONE man - Geshe Kelsang. A monk who´s been aggressively opposed to the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhism in general. He was expelled from Sera monastery in the 90´s, he´s no longer a part of the Gelug tradition.
Your books are written by this one man.
Westerners don´t even know what DS represents when they join NKT. They prefer to think that it´s mainstream Buddhism. But NKT is a cult.
Varavaken 7 months ago
@Varavaken While I think there is a legitimate cause for concern if people are being shunned, it is starting to sound like the debate we are having is based on Westerners interpretations of Tibetan Buddhism. This is a double edged sword - the questions that Westerners are not asking about NKT is the same ignorant bliss that also leads to a fairly blinkered approach to TB. Westerners want Buddhism to be super NICE. & are simply unaware of Tibetan history of sectarianism.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
marsh54: H.H.THE DALAI LAMA IS NOT CLAIMING THE POST OF "KING OF BUDHIST" WHOLE WORLD IS BELIEVING DALAI LAMA IS! EXCEPT FEW SHUKTEN PA WHO IS STRAVING FRM CHINESE BLACK MONEY! THEY ALL ARE SEEMS LIKE A "FROG IN THE POND" COZ THEY ALL HAVE VERY SMALL MINDED N SEEING ONLY THIS BIRTH, THEY ALL ARE IN HELL AFTER DEATH IT IS SOME WHT LKIE LAW OF KARMA.MY ADVICE TO ALL DORJEE SHUKTEN PA IS THAT IT IS NOT A LATE TO LEAVE SHUKTEN, TO HAVE BRIGHTER PRESENT N FUTURE BIRTH. SHUKTEN IS ONLY A GOST!.
tenkobe08 7 months ago
I'm a kadampa buddhist and I am not a 'spirit worshipper' I am a regular Buddhist, just like you Tenzin. We don't do anything different. We all want world peace, happiness and freedom from suffering. I feel it a very 'un-buddhist' thing to do, to make so many people around the world feel that they are doing something wrong, just because you 'decide' to ban DS practice.
I wish, there would be peace regarding this subject now.
MsOntological 8 months ago
@MsOntological
DS practice is NOT banned and you know it. DS monks have their own monasteries in India now
and NKT have centres all over the world. No persecution.
NKT is neither mainstream Buddhism nor Tibetan Buddhism.
It´s a new cult. Their only authority is a monk, opposed to the Dalai Lama - Geshe Kelsang.
DS groups are working with China to undermine the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhism.
DS actvists got away with the triple murder -97 (thanks to China).
Varavaken 7 months ago
@Varavaken .. The New Kadampa Tradition is not a cult. Clearly you have never taken the time to understand and experience any of the teachings. . Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not our 'only source of authority', Geshe Kelsang has passed down Je Tsongkhapa's teaching through 22 amazing books that he has written himself. Geshe Kelsang's teachings are the Buddha's teachings, we (the NKT) are practising Dharma, this should be encouraged not framed as a cult.
MsOntological 7 months ago
@MsOntological
I´´ve been arguing with DS followers for three years now and I´m getting tired of it.
I don´t think you were familiar with Buddhism or Tibetan Buddhism when you joined this group.
Taking refuge in a worldly protector is not Buddhism. Shugden´s status has been disputed as I´m sure you know. The Gelugpas have agreed to "cut the bond" with this controversial protector.
Go to Geden Tradition´s channel. Listen to what they say.
Varavaken 7 months ago
@Varavaken If you are getting tired of arguing with DS followers then I suggest that you stop doing so. What you're doing is shallow minded and offensive. People have the right to worship/seek refuge/ in what ever they like and I really have to say if you've done this nasty messaging to people for three years you've been wasting 3 years of your life for nothing. DS practitioners are passionate about it, and will not change that..
MsOntological 7 months ago
@MsOntological
Nobody is stopping DS practitioners from practising.
Follow your own lamas and stop spreading lies!
DS followers don´t mind China´s interference with Tibetan Buddhism.
They are allies with the CCP.
Varavaken 7 months ago
@Varavaken It is a sad but true fact that because of the invasion of Tibet Tibetan Dharma is now spread world wide. Of course I do not agree with what China has done, but what is most important is that all living beings have the oppotunity to escape samsara through Lord Buddha's teachings. If the Tibetans go back to Tibet they are still in Samsara, so they still have no freedom. Tibetans asked Geshe-la to help them with the DS issue and only he had the guts to stand up to DL.
nashster1 7 months ago
@Varavaken Also, your mind must be in such a negative place if you keep coming on youtube to argue with innocent people. I suggest maybe you practice a little bit of Dharma yourself and gain some inner peace.
And, I want to tell you, I studied Buddhism for 2 years at A Level and got an A. And I'm now doing a BA in it at university. I know a LOT about Buddhism / tibetan buddhism / mahayana / theravada..and I knew a lot before I joined the NKT. It was my choice..hmmmm
MsOntological 7 months ago
@MsOntological
So you studied Buddhism for two years before you decided to join NKT?
Well, then you ought to know that NKT is NOT "mainstream Buddhism".
I´m sorry if I sound aggressive, but you are spreading misinformation.
You´re repeating old lies.
Varavaken 7 months ago
@MsOntological I've visited the local NKT center a few times, though not as a member . . . based on what I saw in the gatherings and what little I've read of NKT literature, the Kadampa tradition does not seem to put any form of worship of (or prayer to) Dorje Shugden front and center, so to speak; instead, the primary focus seems to be on teaching Buddhist ethics and Buddhist philosophical principles, perhaps combined with a bit of honorary deference to Shakyamuni Buddha. Is that about right?
Tigerpaws9097826 7 months ago
@Tigerpaws9097826 Yeah that sounds about right. Obviously, there is sooo much more going on except the practice of Dorje Shugden prayers. We do rely on Dorje Shugden for protection, but amongst that we make offerings to all the Buddhas especially Je Tsongkhapa (the guy who passed on Atisha's teaching and developed Kadampa). We also praise Shakyamuni Buddha and he has his own prayer in the form of a beautiful song which we sing/chant at the beginning of meditation classes.
MsOntological 7 months ago
@Tigerpaws9097826 ...I have to be honest, there IS Dorje Shugden reliance and practice but it is very much hidden amongst other prayers for other buddhas. Kadampa Buddhist place a lot of emphasis on the wellbeing of others and there is a strong theme of compassion for other people in teachings. Dorje Shugden practice is hardly even noticed in classes! However, the prayer for him is beautiful and creates very positive minds. All Dorje Shugden does is protect Je Tsongkhapas tradition. :)
MsOntological 7 months ago
@MsOntological - I know from your name you're a Western woman, as am I. While I see and agree with your point (debating not hassling), I am thinking that part of the problem here may lie with *Western* expectations of what are Buddhist and unBuddhist things to do, based on religious teaching alone. *Tibetan* interpretations of pragmatic Buddhist leadership may have plenty to do with Tibet's actual history (not just its current political situation) in which sectarianism played a defining role.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
Because of China, the world has to absorb thibetans coming right from the middle ages. Most thibetans I have met are culturally retarded disrespectful scum. At the same time, it might be simply the effect of loosing ones roots. Still I beg China to control this fucking borders and stop this "things" polluting the western countries.
marendoo 8 months ago
@marendoo ... and, this is the exact attitude that we all worry about encouraging by asking questions about the Shugden thing.
So, where are you from & how is it you have come into contact with so many Tibetans?
Complaining you have met rude Tibetans & wondering if losing one's roots contributes is one thing, but relegating people to "things"? - puhlease.
Interesting though that there's passionate debate about the issue but no one bothered to contradict you. Probably no useful debate.
VoidDeluxe 5 months ago
Peace
MrDel000 8 months ago
Hes full of shit..just like J.W Bush
nockey 8 months ago
@nockey He supported Bush wars !
XpresloX 8 months ago
@XpresloX
No, he didn´t.
He may like Bush as a person, but he has never praised his politics.
(By the way, he liked Mao too.)
Varavaken 7 months ago
Now dala lama is retired. I. Tibetans view he should be most peotratic. If he is he should come and join freedom movement by participating in various hunger strike and peace march like other Tibetans citizens do. Instead of enjoing king life style.
MrLiberal91 10 months ago
@MrLiberal91he can do more than that ! he is spending his whole life for the sack of 6 million tibetan.
tenkobe08 7 months ago
ivivism - i've been surfing around and see you spreading these accusations everywhere. Like studyreligions says - show some proof dude! Death threats and abuse are serious - they need to be reported to the police. Unless all this is made up of course. Who beat you up? Spread THAT around, rather than these woolly accusations! I've googled Tsem Tulku and read his stuff. I don't see anything there that contradicts Buddha's teachings. He seems a popular dude and not worshipping any cult.
TheMahasiddha 10 months ago
@TheMahasiddha
Tsem Tulku´s teacher was a DS practitioner all his life.
I don´t think Tsem Tulku is opposed to this practice.
Varavaken 10 months ago
@Varavaken i think u might in doubt! that's a good question . if tsem tulku is not under influence n he will resarch about shukten n fact is automatically come on ground. m sure he will rally opposed to practice. i think ur in doubt don't go blindly on that , u just resarch it n m sure u'll never under shukten. that is my advice. mostly who is working under shukten is under influence or sicking black money frm china!
tenkobe08 7 months ago
@tenkobe08
I´m not claiming that Tsem Tulku is a DS practitioner.
I know he doesn´t want to be involved in this conflict.
But he´s also a follower of Pabongkha (who introduced DS in the Gelug tradition)...
And he has friendly relations with Shugden lamas.
But I don´t want to jump to any conclusions.
Varavaken 7 months ago
@tenkobe08
Tsem Tulku has friendly relations with Gangchen Lama. Gangchen Lama has friendly relations with China.
He´s been promoting (enforcing?) DS inside Tibet.
Tsem Tulku may be loyal to the Dalai Lama but he has never criticized those who go against him (as far as I know).
Varavaken 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The Tsem Tulku Organization runs wwwdorjeshugdencom, they are also the ones dropping DS pamphlets all over Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. People who leave the organization or otherwise find out their secret are subject to abuse and death threats. Kechara House is a dangerous cult that has betrayed His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan Community, and most of all, Gaden Shartse Monastery. Please circulate this information far and wide.
ivivism 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The Tsem Tulku Organization runs wwwdorjeshugdencom, they are also the ones dropping DS pamphlets all over Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. People who leave the organization or otherwise find out their secret are subject to abuse and death threats. Kechara House is a dangerous cult that has betrayed His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan Community, and most of all, Gaden Shartse Monastery. Please circulate this information far and wide.
ivivism 10 months ago
Guys understand that dala lama wants to unified saka,ningma,geluk and kaguk. Then he wants to be a leader of all this sect. But he feel that particularly shugden partioner will never mixed with other sect espacialy nigma so started banning shugden by accusing all the that things u can imagine. But he forget one individual can study every thing. If a docter study engenering, archetech and etc. Every thing he can be nothing good at all.
MrLiberal91 10 months ago
@MrLiberal91
For heaven´s sake - the Dalai Lama IS the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism,( four schools, five with the Bön tradition). Just look it up.
One of the most outstanding masters of the 20th century was Chökyi Lodrö. He had authority on all four traditions and was a holder of all lineages. Yes - it is possible.
Non sectarianism is NOT about merging the traditions.
Tibetan Buddhism is not Shugdenism, MrLiberal91.
Varavaken 8 months ago
If u guys need proof that dala is encoureging hayrated. Look at the two bigest monastries of tibet. Gadan and set. from thousand years monk leave together now they e sparated and they even hate each other suprisingly dala praies his follower for ostricized
MrLiberal91 10 months ago
@MrLiberal91
The Shugden monks in India have their own monasteries because Gelug monasteries have stopped this practi
Are you refering to the Gelug monasteries in India or Tibet?
I´m not sure what´s happening inside Tibet, if you know more - tell me about it.
China is encouraging this practice, Gangchen Lama too. I´ve heard that they´re even trying to enforce it.
Many monks have left their monasteries in protest...
Varavaken 7 months ago
If u guys need proof
MrLiberal91 10 months ago
Comment removed
ivivism 10 months ago
Every problem u have to look side. Weather china, Tibet or middle east issue. In this issue to I look at both side. So to me dala lama flowers hate shugden fllower for no reSon. So they just lablled shugdwn follwer r getting paid by Chinese . Come on if u know the person name speak up u can't blame all shugden fllower.
MrLiberal91 10 months ago
I don't no religion much. But suprice me. Even in 21 century man who look as a champion of tolerance r isolating their own people who share the same histroy and sufring from china just becoz of their befief. I lost my love becoz of this stupid ban. Her parents don't want her to marry me. Becoz I born in shugden partioner family.
MrLiberal91 10 months ago
Dala lama explaning while laughing. It's not joke. This is serious issued. Lots of family and loved onece sparated becoz of this issue. It hurt me.
MrLiberal91 10 months ago
The Tsem Tulku Organization runs wwwdorjeshugdencom, they are also the ones dropping DS pamphlets all over Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. People who leave the organization or otherwise find out their secret are subject to abuse and death threats. Kechara House is a dangerous cult that has betrayed His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan Community, and most of all, Gaden Shartse Monastery. Please circulate this information far and wide.
ivivism 11 months ago
@ivivism Please provide proof of what you claim. Buddhism is compassion and tolerance, not blind accusations, slander and hate. I appreciate that you are following His Holiness by not practicing Shugden, but he does not endorse hate and claims without evidence.
studyreligions 10 months ago
@studyreligions melvin
ivivism 10 months ago
@ivivism Eric :)
studyreligions 10 months ago
@studyreligions wrong
ivivism 10 months ago
@ivivism My apologizes then. I'll just call you an underdog spirit with no name who likes to eat sharp pudding with sincerity. I'm sure there's more than that. Why do you not provide proof for your claims? All you are doing is posting everywhere and starting rumors. If there is really something wrong Kechara is doing then prove it. How does going around accusing people being the Shugden police help your practice? Is this the 7th perfection, accusing others? Do what really matters. 6 perfections.
studyreligions 10 months ago
@studyreligions You think you're stupid shugden group online can control people. But here in KL me and my family were threatened by Tsem's students. YOU UNDERSTAND?! THEY HAVE BEEN STALKING MY FAMILY FOR 6 MONTHS! JUST TO KEEP ME FROM TELLING PEOPLE! I am not dealing with this anymore! You can't threaten me anymore! You are not Buddhist! Tsem Tulku is a criminal cult leader and going to hell!
ivivism 10 months ago
@ivivism I am not trying to control anybody. All I am asking is for proof of what you claim. Instead I get insults and more accusations. I don't practice Shugden but I don't hate those who practice Shugden either. I have learned to respect the religious choices of others. This is what I feel His Holiness teaches. What you say and how you act reflects back on your Guru. If you are a student of His Holiness then act like one.
studyreligions 10 months ago