DEBATE: Ephesians 1:1-11, Was Jesus' Death Predestined To Save Some or All People?

[DougCameraMan]

A an almighty God powerful enough to create the universe and everything that is in it could also determine what shall happen on this little planet. Arminians like to think of God as the creator who must rely on humans to cooperate with him to accomplish what God wants. They say Jesus died for everyone, yet Jesus said to a group mocking him: "You are not my sheep" - John 10:26. Arminians, answer why Jesus called some people not his sheep if he was going to die for them?

[CAnswersTV]

@DougCameraMan Excellent points!

[Goodlife51]

The bald guy DENIES the Trinity....HE believes Jesus IS the Father.....since his foundation is wrong,his theology will be wrong.....i saw him attempt to debate a guy on the subject and he said that there was no need to look at the greek,the translators had done a good enough job!..

[CAnswersTV]

@Goodlife51 Excellent observation! What made this debate interesting for us was that a classic heretic (someone who would deny the Trinity much like Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, UPC, Mormons, etc) is taking the Arminian position (virtually all cultic groups take the Arminian/Pelagian position on the atonement of Christ - this is so they can work or "earn" their salvation rather than depend on God's SOVEREIGN GRACE, Eph 2:8-10). In one part of this 4 hr debate Larry showed how the Trinity saves.

[elderaps]

@razputin34 If people who were eternally predestined were also eternally justified, Ephesians 2 would be incorrect. You are conflating PREDESTINATION with CALLING and JUSTIFICATION. They are different. The Bible never speaks of justification or calling as being done before the foundation of the world, only predestination.

[elderaps]

@razputin34 Your analogy falls short of the biblical testimony. You are leaving out the fact that people must respond to the gospel in order to become Christians. People are adopted into God's family when they repent of their sins and trust in Christ alone for salvation. God soveriegnly works through the desires of human beings as they repent and believe in order to fulfill the things which He has predestined. Eph 2 is right when it says you WERE dead in trespasses but GOD made you alive

[razputin34]

@elderaps First let me say thank you for taking time to respond to my comments. Secondly, I want to let you know that I am not doing this just to argue with someone who sees God working in this way. I enjoy dialogue and this is one area that I have the biggest issues with. I would have to classify my view as an open view of God's foreknowledge, so the to one of your responses I would say God doesn't necessarily know who is going to saved from all eternity.

[CAnswersTV]

@razputin34 You've already DISQUALIFIED yourself as a true believer in the God of the Bible by your very comment here. You clearly state that you've an "open view of God's foreknowledge" meaning "God doesn't necessarily know who is going to [be] saved from all eternity." Wow, at least you're honest about NOT believing in the same God as Bible believers. Since your god is DIFFERENT than the Biblical God it's no wonder you disagree with God's right to SAVE who HE wants (Hebrews 4:13, Eph 1:1-11).

[razputin34]

@CAnswersTV See, you reference these scriptures as if your view is the only recognized way to understand what Paul is saying here. I am trying to discuss the scriptural and philosophical issues that can arise from our differing views. I am in now way married to my position of the open view, but I do see major holes and problems within the Calvinist view. I have seen nothing about the potter in Jeremiah 18. I have seen nothing in the way of argument as it relates to how we are in Christ...

[CAnswersTV]

@razputin34 The question arises from your declarations that you don't believe God knows the future- can the "Christ" you believe in truly "save" you by his power since he never really knew who or what he was really coming to "save" in any real sense of the word? This "God" & "Christ" you believe in is without the attributes of omnipotence & omniscience which then denigrates the very nature of God Himself to such an extent as to be unrecognizable in the Biblical sense. Prophecy proves you wrong.

[elderaps]

Ephesians doesn't say the elect were "In Christ" (i.e. saved) before time, it says they were PREDESINTED in Christ before time.....

[CAnswersTV]

@elderaps Very nice observation. Most dabblers into Biblical theology can't seem to grasp that God Almighty can PREDESTINE an individual to salvation BEFORE the world was created but in EARTHLY human time that same individual can be a wretched sinner for years UNTIL the moment of DIVINE INTERVENTION when that wretched sinner is suddenly "born again" (John 3:3-8, Titus 3:5-7, Colossians 1:13-14) & BECOMES a true Christian, "in Christ." A good reference - DrOakley1689 (James White) on YOUTUBE.

[razputin34]

@elderaps Man is born a wretched vile person and can't do anything to help himself, correct? We are born with spiritually dead DNA that only God can regenerate into a righteous DNA. We can't chose to even think about God without him dragging us to Him, right? Does God create us? Do we get into this world because He creates us in the womb? If God creates us knowing he is not going to choose us to be saved and is going to send us to hell, then how on Earth can he hold us accountable?

[CAnswersTV]

@razputin34 The Sovereign God of the universe does want He wants NOT what we want Him to do (Daniel 4:35). To add emphasis to this please see our 11 hr video series on GOOGLE VIDEO entitled, "Unpopular Bible Doctrines" (or type LARRY WESSELS in their homepage search box). God makes some men to go to heaven & others are made for a destiny in hell (please read Paul's explanation In Romans 9:10-23, "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"). Proverbs 16:4, "Lord made ... wicked for the day of evil."

[razputin34]

@CAnswersTV I will watch when I get time, but I have listened to James White and watched a variety of Calvinist thinkers, but I see the same problems in their arguments. Sure, God can do what He chooses to do, but the problem is God cannot hold me accountable for anything that I do. God creates me without the ability to choose and goes even further by forcing me to either love Him or reject Him. He then holds me accountable for the actions he forced on me to begin with. This makes no sense.

[CAnswersTV]

@razputin34 Once again you're in deep Biblical error (which is understandable since you don't believe the Bible anyway & think that God really doesn't know the total future). The god you believe in is NOT the same as the Biblical God, not only because of your "open view of God's foreknowledge,"but your comment here saying "God cannot hold me accountable for anything I do." You're eternally wrong because God WILL hold you ACCOUNTABLE whether you believe it or not (James 2:10, Ecclesiastes 12:14).

[razputin34]

@CAnswersTV I believe the Bible and I am a follower of Christ. I do much to build up the body on a daily basis. You question me because of how you read Romans. Since you want to attack me when it comes to God's knowledge of future events, please explain Genesis 22:12. However, make sure you read how chapter 22 starts. God tested Abraham and then what does God say in response..NOW I KNOW that YOU FEAR the LORD..when did God know it? I know about anthropomorphic statements, but that ...

[CAnswersTV]

@razputin34 How are you building up the Body of Christ when you don't believe that God knows the future? How do you know if God might suddenly change His mind in the future & just go ahead & get rid of the whole creation & start something completely different with creation elements that do not relate at all to what we now find? Your misuse of Gen 22:12 to prove God doesn't know about Abraham, let alone everything else, is just bogus in context to the rest of Scripture. Your doctrine is false.

[LothairOfLorraine]

@CAnswersTV I don't see how God can change his mind in the future and be consistent with his own revelation.

[CAnswersTV]

@LothairOfLorraine Very well said & a good point for people who deny that God knows the future to ponder. God already has the future planned out & ordained. Anytime God reveals a prophecy it means that the future event or events is absolutely certain because God will make it come to pass: Genesis 41:32; Job 14:5; Jeremiah 15:2, 27:7; Habakkuk 2:3; Matthew 24:36; Luke 21:24, 22:22; John 8:20, etc. The dozens of Messianic Old Testament prophecies about the coming of Jesus also prove the point.

[razputin34]

Respond to this video...In response to your point about Romans 9...I find it interesting that everyone just ignores the fact that we can look at Jeremiah 18 for the complete illustration for the Potter and the Clay. In Jeremiah it is clear that the Potter will relent and change His intended outcome, if the clay repents. It also says that if a nation is going to be built up, but does evil, the Potter will reconsider what to do with the vessel. Surely, He chooses, but not arbitrarily

[CAnswersTV]

@razputin34 Your problem here once again is that you just simply will NOT believe in the God of the Bible as He has revealed Himself through his prophets & apostles. Even when the Bible verses are clearly & plainly stated in black & white you REFUSE to heed & listen. Romans 9 is the passage of full mention on this topic & you simply reject it as if it weren't there. Romans 9:11 says, "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done ANY GOOD OR EVIL, that the purpose of ELECTION ...).

[razputin34]

Respond to this video...I actually do believe in the God that has revealed Himself in the Bible. I just disagree with you on what Paul is trying to tell us. You quote Romans 9 like this seals your case air tight, but it doesn't. I mentioned Jeremiah 18 in a prior post and haven't seen one response to it yet. Are you telling me that the verse in Romans 9 about God loving Jacob and hating Esau concerns individual salvation? Elected for what purpose? Why are you assuming salvation?

[razputin34]

Respond to this video...BTW, I have enjoyed many of your videos and I thank you for making these available. 

[elderaps]

@razputin34 I would disagree that we "can't even think about God without him dragging us to Him." We can think about him, but we cant do anything that pleases him apart from grace, including repentance and faith.

Do you believe that God FOREKNOWS who will be saved? If God foreknows someone will not be saved and yet still decides to create them, isn't he just as guilty? Why didn't he chose only to create those who he knew would by their own free will believe and be saved?

[razputin34]

@elderaps As I mentioned above, since I take an open view position, I do not necessarily believe that God knows for certain who will choose Him. I am sure this would be another topic of discussion. :) So you would say we can't have faith unless we are regenerated? Are any of the people listed in Hebrews 11 the product of regeneration? Did God choose Abraham and then regenerate him, so that he could believe? If we can think about Him, then how come we can't pick up a Bible and then choose...

[elderaps]

@razputin34 But to answer your question, Paul raises the same question in Romans 9:14-24. He gives two answers to whether God is fair and whether he can actually hold us accountable for our actions.

Romans 9:14ff What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses,"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

[elderaps]

@razputin34 Paul continues

Romans 9:19ff You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

[Dejavu12321]

USE YOUTUBE TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL: God the son came to the earth as Jesus Christ to live a sinless life worthy of being able to defeat death and paying our price as a sacrifice for all the sins each and every one of us has committed against a just and holy God. He suffered the punishment/wrath of God for all of the worlds sin while he hung on the cross. Place your trust and faith in him. Believe in him and repent of your sins. Once you are truly saved, you become a new creation!

[CAnswersTV]

@Dejavu12321 Now that's the right idea! That's our purpose & why we go to Jehovah's Witness conventions, Muslim student centers, Mormon wards, Christian Science reading rooms, Moonie meetings, Campbellite debates, New Age bookstores, etc. That's why we do street preaching, campus evangelism (see our Youtube video SATAN IN YOUR NOSE & OTHER MUSLIM TEACHINGS), television, radio, the internet, newsletters, etc. It's all about what you said. We preach the Gospel because God will give the increase.

[mgundy]

5-pt Calvinism teaches a 'love' that makes one's blood run cold.

[CAnswersTV]

@mgundy You call it "5 Point Calvinism" but what really makes "one's blood run cold" is Biblical Theology which you clearly do not like. Unless it is theology by Joel Osteen or Robert Schuller it probably isn't Bible teaching to you, right? What about "flying Adams" by Benny Hinn or men being "little gods" by Kenneth Copeland, you like that better? Does God love Esau (Romans 9:13)? How about the Amalekites (Ex 17:14, 1 Sam 15:3)? Canaanites (Deut 20:16-18)? Blasphemers of the Spirit (Matt 12)?

[mgundy]

@CAnswersTV I was quoting John Wesley. Thank you for your assumptions about my faith. Sorry to disappoint :)

[CAnswersTV]

@mgundy If you're quoting Wesley, why say, "5 point Calvinism teaches a 'love' that makes one's blood run cold.' as if YOU were saying it instead of Wesley. The TV "Health & Wealth" Gospel preachers say the same thing about their preconceived notions of what "Calvinism" is. The problem is always the same, men who have not been "born again" (John 3:3-8) think God "loves" everybody the same which is Biblically NOT the case (Romans 9:10-23). A truly "born again" Christian UNDERSTANDS God's love.

[mgundy]

@CAnswersTV It's a pretty famous quote from Wesley. I would think anyone who studies the Scripture with multiple viewpoint commentaries would be fairly familiar with it. Especially from such a revered theologian as John Wesley.

[CAnswersTV]

@mgundy Wesley is a "revered" Arminian preacher by Arminians who refuse a Sovereign God in the salvation of souls. If you read the book, "John Wesley: A Biography" published by Eerdmans in 2003, it shows that Wesley lacked faith in the God he was preaching. John Wesley wrote to his brother Charles in June of 1766 (long after his so-called "conversion"), "I do not love God. I never did. Therefore I have never believed, in the Christian sense of the word. I am only an honest heathen." (page 168).

[mgundy]

@CAnswersTV I have not read the book, I'll look into it. However, if your argument is as you claim and not taken out of context, it still commits the genetic fallacy.

[mgundy]

@CAnswersTV After about 15 minutes of research on the topic the discrepancy is obvious. Wesley was a Moravian at the time. Murray explains this in his book Wesley and the Men Who Followed (Banner, 2003). Unfortunately, the Moravians believed that if one has true faith, then one is totally released from all doubts and Wesley, at least for a time, adopted this belief. If you have any remaining doubts, then you do not yet have true faith.

[mgundy]

@mgundy I'd recommend checking out sermonindex(dot)net which as an informative discussion on this. However, you're probably right. John Wesley was a heretic and the Methodist Church is a perversion *sigh*.

[vennchris]

When Christ died, He simply opened up the chance for anyone to be saved. And these "Anyones" will inevitably be the "Chosen" of God. All things work according to God's purpose. But not everyone will be saved. Yes, God's children are pre-destined in Christ Jesus.

Jesus' death was pre-destined to give everyone the chance and hope of salvation in Christ alone. By the end, only God's chosen will walk with Him.

I'm not contradicting myself. You're just taking the video title out of context.

[CAnswersTV]

@vennchris The only one out of context is you. Your mind has been so preconditioned by continual Arminian preaching rather than simply studying what the Bible itself has to say you can't see what the Bible is plainly saying. You remind me of the Scribes & Pharisees who were so steeped in their human traditions that could not grasp Jesus' teaching even though they were familar with the Scriptures. The Gospel is not a "chance" (what an insult to God) but a CERTAINTY for those CHOSEN BY GOD (Jn 6).

[vennchris]

@CAnswersTV The world calls it "arminian tradition". I call it, "sitting down at the table, pulling out my bible, and reading it", like you say I should be doing. I'm not perfect, but I'm trying and you've got to give me credit for that. Yet, you still call it "arminian tradition". I've never even heard of that word before.

Listen, I respect your beliefs. And I've presented mine. Let us not try to be right here. Let us just believe God and His word, like you said. Humans aren't perfect.

[CBALLEN]

Men are born again by God,their response to this is to repent and believe.In other words repentance and belief are the first fruit of being born of God. 1JOHN 5:1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

[CAnswersTV]

Unfortunately for you "Dwrancho144" your "question" is obviously a phony one since it is based on a logical fallacy known as a COMPLEX QUESTION. This type of fallacy assumes a yes or no answer but the answer actually involves several different issues & thus a yes or no is not feasible. This is to say that your question was not serious from the beginning & therefore does not justify a reply. Others can go to YAHOO VIDEO (search LARRY WESSELS on their homepage) & see our PREDESTINATION series.

[TheWitnis]

@Dwrancho144 God decreed everything before the foundation of the world,including who His sheep were.He foreknew us = loved before hand,it were these same sheep that he predestiened to be conformed to the likeness of His Son.

[TheWitnis]

@Dwrancho144 Dwrancho144 Some say that God merely had the knowledge of who would chose Him brings up many problems for the Arminian,chiefly,rendering some scripture as false.Jesus loved us first that's why we love Him,but if God simply depended on man's decision to base His election on,then it would mean man loved God first , He really didn't choose us first at all,but rather we chose Him first before He called us to Christ.John 6:44 should have been left out if this was the case

[CAnswersTV]

@TheWitnis Excellent point here. Good job!

[tgillspy]

calvinism is exceedingly wicked and a stupid man' s theology

[CAnswersTV]

@tgillspy What do you mean when you say "calvinism" because many people have different definitions as to what exactly "calvinism" is? For our purposes we have defined it in a 6 hour video series called PREDESTINATION which can be found on YAHOO VIDEO or GOOGLE VIDEO (type LARRY WESSELS in their respective homepage search boxes & then look for it). Thus depending on how you define what "calvinism" is will determine whether your comment here has any validity to it. Who then chooses in salvation?

[tgillspy]

@CAnswersTV You know what calvinism is -it is theology that is set up in such a way that is calls into question Christ command :which is what he preached repent and believe the gospel. Reformed calvinism is modern day pharisee cult that takes tulip teaching and makes it try to fit - John 3 kjv by saying God loves only some......

[CAnswersTV]

@tgillspy You're correct when you say we know what "calvinism" is & it is defined in our 6 hour PREDESTINATION series on YAHOO VIDEO (type LARRY WESSELS on their homepage search box; see also our 11 hour UNPOPULAR BIBLE DOCTRINES series as well) . I doubt you've watched these series or this entire debate here (4 hours) on LIMITED ATONEMENT. The question was to find out if YOU knew & it's now obvious that you do not by your answer. Was the "love" of God preached in Acts? Does God "love" Esau?

[October31st1517]

Point # 2: At 5:37 Steve is confronted with his claim that he is a former Calvinist and he refuses to answer this question.

However in Steve's defense I do think Bob Ross should not have asked this question. It took time away from Larry & Steve's dialouge. Larry needed no help. He was defending his position flawlessly.

[October31st1517]

Steve does not understand the difference of Actually & Positionally. Are we actually in Christ before conversion. No. Are we positionally. Yes.

It's like this. Are we sinners? Acually, Yes. Positionally, No, because of what Christ has done. This is why his "let your yeh be yeh, & let your neh be neh" argument is irrelevent.