CCW 2.49: Brian Bendis versus female characters...again! Part 2

[thekuduman]

first off, love the show you guys do-its honest and in your face as far as addressing the genre and likes and dislikes. The one fella is so passionate about comics to a point where he appears to be "this" close to having a breakdown. But yes I agree, comics is escapist entertainment and I think there is way too much violence in them today and if it's a reflection of our society then what does that say about us? ;)

[cdbtoo]

Brian Michael Bendis is the reason I no longer read Marvel Comics - which I'd been collecting for more than thirty years at that point. Once he turned the Scarlet Witch into the villain of the piece of Avengers Disassembled, I was done with him and Marvel.

Thank you both for speaking out against all the misogyny in comics (I'm really glad I wasn't around for the Tigra rape story -- ugh!) I'm with you: I want my heroes to act like heroes!

[hugeloads]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this or if you guys covered it in another video but does any one remember when Luke Cage kicked Electra(skrull) in the Vagina!!

[comicculturewarrior]

That was actually before we stated these videos. I did cover that scene though on the blog a couple of months ago.

J.

[Baec]

preach you guys preach. I haven't been a big fan of New Avengers for a while. But I feel I can't help but read sometimes. Three of my favorite marvel characters are on the team Cage, Spidey, Wolvie(even though they are not always written well).

Sadly. I am still in mourning about Spider-Man OMD so my emotional attachment to Spider-Man is null in void. Wolverine has also been overplayed. I went through a the hood, than Ares than Daken phase. Now my favorite books are the new Batman ones.

[firewalkwithbob]

ugh you guys bitch and bitch and bitch about Bendis- stop.reading.his.comics!

[comicculturewarrior]

So, unless we have something good to say about BMB, don't say anything? In other words, don't have an opinion of our own?

I take it you are new to this channel? Unlike others, people are free to express themselves in a constructive manner.

Try that and see if it works for you.

Elliott

[HyperVegito]

I think that women are starting to get the same treatment as men in comics. Is this example a good thing? No, but at least women are getting their recognition.

[comicculturewarrior]

Good god, if I hear someone make that argument again, I'm gonna scream. To say that killing/objectifying women in comics is 'equal treatment' to men is just downright silly. Sorry, but you're kinda missing the point behind our arguments if all you can do is say 'women are getting equal treatment' now.

You want 'equal treatment' of women in comics? Look at anything by Rucka, Simone, Trautmann, Dini to name a few.  What you see in Bendis' books these days is NOT 'equal treatment.'

Elliott

[HyperVegito]

I know exactly what your saying. Like I said, it might not be a good example, but at least there is one.

[comicculturewarrior]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA­AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA­AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH­HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Elliott

[HyperVegito]

Then again, it looked prety damn awesome lol.

Fatality.

[comicculturewarrior]

So not funny. E.

[herosymbiote]

No it did not. It was gross, disgusting, insulting to female readers, and should have had editorial say a BIG NO to that DISGUSTING splash page.

[HyperVegito]

It's called opinions.

[herosymbiote]

Honestly, opinion or not it is STILL disgusting to look at!

[hell1on]

To look only at violence against women in his comics is really manipulation and missuse of facts, wolverine had his dick shot off, tony was turned into a woman, clint was killed twice.

I'm not a huge fan but its on my pull list as it is central to Marvels current story arc. I think your argument is overly critical of bendis personally, he's writing comics for adults and in real life bad stuff happens to people, like in his comics people are hurt, not men, not women but people.

[comicculturewarrior]

So. Not. The. Point.

I'm so tired of this argument, it's not even funny. No sense in debating a point with a side that has already made up its mind.

Elliott

[HyperVegito]

Fatality.

The Sentry Wins...

(I only really found it badass because it really caught me off-gaurd)

[Shendue]

You can't just answer "Not the Point" everytime you disagree.

I don't personally like very much Bendis writing, preferring other writers over him.

Still i don't think he's overviolent over women. He's as violent with women as he's with men, that's it.

Thinking women should get a special treatment is pretty hypocritical, like it or not. And Bendis women are often portrayed as strong and capable as men, unlike other comics, where they are mere sexual objects.

[comicculturewarrior]

@Shendue Ya, Ms. Marvel is not treated like a sexual object in Dark Avengers at all, right? You lose.

Also, "Not the Point!"

J.

[Shendue]

For one example where a female character is oversexed in his comic book, you can point 10 where he does the opposite.

His fictional women are less a sexual object then 95% of other comics, so why going all witch-hunting against Bendis.

Before burning him to ashes i'd take a look at many other writers if i wanted to start a crusade for equal treatment of both sexes in comic books.

[comicculturewarrior]

The reason Bendis is discussed so much is because he's Marvel's #1 writer. Watch some more of our videos and you'll see that we've taken other writers to task as well. I was particularly disappointed with Andy Diggle and his Hawkeye miniseries. But I'll tell you what, give me examples of other Marvel writers who have as many depictions of violence towards women as Bendis does. As for 10 examples of protrayals where women are not 'oversexed' in Bendis' books. I'd like those as well. Elliott

[Shendue]

I may have expressed wrong.

I'm not saying that Bendis women AREN'T oversexed.

I'm saying that, DESPITE being obviously oversexed (i always find funny that almost all mainstream superheroins have a pornstar's body), they are still written as likeable, strong, capable and smart women, unlike in other comic books where they are just airheads.

About the 10 examples, you have a point, i can't recall them by memory, but Echo, Jessica Drew, Jessica Jones are pretty good examples.

[Shendue]

I'd say Jessica Drew, Jessica Jones, Kat Farrel, Maria Hill aren't portayed in a negative way.

Wasp, i know he killed her, but it was a tragic potrayal of the character that didn't disrespect her.

About Ms. Marvel, i never cared much about the character, since it's always being bland, oversexed and uninteresting.

They tried to make her interesting as Warbird making her a Stark clone, and even then she was bland.

It's not a Bendis fault.

[comicculturewarrior]

Maria Hill didn't become a fully realized character until Matt Fraction started using her in Iron Man. Now you say that woman ARE oversexed in Bendis' comics? Ms. Marvel was called Warbird in another writers' version of Avengers, the writer being Kurt Busiek who wrote her very well IMO. Now, the original question WAS NOT what other characters are oversexed, but to tell me how many OTHER writers depict violence towards women as frequently as Bendis does.

Still waiting.

Elliott

[adbunch1986]

I read it because I'm hoping that some where down the line they will bring back Eddie Brock as Venom and I don't want to miss it if they do. Plus I didn't know about the whole kill of women that the writers been doing since Dark Avengers #3 was the first new comic I've bought in about five or more years. But I was kind of shock by it and a little upset.

[comicculturewarrior]

Actually adbunch, Eddie Brock is back as the new Anti-Venom. There was a story line in Amazing Spider-Man a few months ago called "New Ways to Die" where they brought back Brock and had him fight the current Venom. Marvel is collecting the story into a hardcover and should be out soon in case you can't hunt down the back issues. Check it out. It was a good read. Thanks for watching and commenting.

J.

[Armistance]

she's an evil sorceress from Odin knows what century!! should we give her a blowjob and hopes she goes to sleep instead of ravaging a small Eastern european country?

Would you hug a female suicide bomber instead of taking a head shot and save lives in the process.

You guys don't seem to have a good grasp on what it really means to be treated equally.

[comicculturewarrior]

I have a feeling you don't have a grasp of what we are actually talking about after reading that comment. Sorry mate.

Who are you to tell us that we don't know what it really means to be treated equally? Do you know what protests we have personally attended,what causes we personally advocate or how inequality has effected us? No? Well, I suggest that you rethink your completely unjustified insults so as not to come off as such an ignorant prick.

J.

[ValisX]

instead of wasting 20 mins "reviewing" a book that you didnt like why don't you.......*ever* review some cool non-bendis, non-marvel books (besides invincible) that are good

the eisner list just came out and its full of nominations for independent books that i've never heard of. Instead of giving yourself a stroke over.... Dark Avengers... of all things... go review some of these eisner nominations that no one has any knowledge of

[comicculturewarrior]

Watch more of our videos and you'll see we do, ValisX. Dark Avengers is one of Marvel's top selling books, so giving it some attention is obvious. Watch some of our other videos and you'll see we review LOTS of books that we like, discuss a couple indies and other creators that we feel do great work.

So the point I'm making is...WATCH MORE THAN ONE VIDEO BEFORE MAKING A JUDGMENT.

Cool name BTW. Phillip K. Dick is one of my fave sci-fi writers.

Thanks for commenting,

Elliott

[comicculturewarrior]

Instead of wasting all that time and space complaining that we don't review non-bendis, non-marvel books (besides invincible) that are good why don't you watch some of our other videos where we do just that. Or were you just trying to be a smart ass and/or a dick? Maybe both?

Jose

[ValisX]

this dude got waaaay too worked up over this

[comicculturewarrior]

Which dude? Jose or me? Jose gets worked up all the time, especially about Bendis. I do too, especially since Bendis is one of my favorite creators but appears to be slumming it right now.

Elliott

[PILKK90]

what are your thoughts on the whole blob/ wasp thing in ultimatum 2? i thought it was too much by loeb and was used to try and shock people

[herosymbiote]

if bendis changed his writing style for some reason do you think people would stilll buy his books

[comicculturewarrior]

Bendis is a very talented and popular writer who really doesn't need to change his style as much as his focus. If he decided to a) focus on putting more ACTION in his books and not having the heroes spend half the book standing around and talking and b) lay off the graphic depictions of violence towards women, I doubt his sales would suffer.

Elliott

[herosymbiote]

i totally agree

[ChrisHatesBeach]

Part TWO: As for children picking up the comics and seeing the males killing females, well this isnt 60s. Look all around you, do you realize whats on TV nowadays? Bendis isnt writing for readers from 60s, this is another century and different audience now. I dont understand why you guys are offended when Doom called that female character a whore when Tv they praise whores all the time. MTV makes it seem like its fine to call females whores and females make it seem like its totally fine

[comicculturewarrior]

I've been reading Marvel Comics for a very long time and think I know the character of Doctor Doom. In all the years I've read stories about him, he has never, NEVER, stooped to calling a woman a 'whore.' That sort of language is just beneath him. And it's not just 60's mores we're talking here, I'm including the 80's when comics were as dark as they'd ever been. Alan Moore gave us Watchmen in the 80's ya' know. Oh, and don't look to MTV for moral guidance, eh? ;-)

Elliott

[ChrisHatesBeach]

This is for Elliott,

I understand what you are saying about Doom but if you haven't noticed in every marvel comic book you pick up, it tells you about 5 times the "accept change" logo. They are pretty much telling you that EVERYTHING is different including characters. Just because they aren't the same to previous issues you shouldnt get mad. You cant expect characters to stay the same for years to come. Change is necessary, reinventing is a way to keep things alive. IMO best way to not get stale

[comicculturewarrior]

So because MTV and mainstream television say it's fine to call women whores and treat them like one we should all just fall in line and do so? That's one of the most fucking idiotic things I have ever heard in my life. Do you not have any morals?

That's really sad if you think that that behavior is ok just because you are TOLD it is. And the fact that you are defending women be treated as inferiors kind of sickens me.

Jose

[ChrisHatesBeach]

This is specifically directed to Jose.

No, you didnt understand where i was getting at, Bendis does a great job because hes writing for the generation of this time, he is incorporating everything that is happening in the REAL world into his comic book. I don't mean directly everything but the morals that people have nowadays. I never said this was correct way of treating woman. I always have seen comic books to satirize our everyday lives. I don't look at MTV for moral guidance ;-]

[comicculturewarrior]

You make some good points ChrisHatesBeach. I think Jose and I will discuss them in our next session.

Thanks for commenting!

Elliott

[ChrisHatesBeach]

Part ONE: You guys are complaining about Bendis-female characters but what do you really expect? Everywhere is the comic says accept change. Instead of being repetitive and sticking to the old super hero good-guy norm, they have completely changed everything where good is evil and vice-versa. I know you guys want the characters to be super heroes and save livesbut its the Dark Reign. It wouldnt make sense if the dark avengers were saving lives, they are villains after all.

[LordBifford]

I don't know why you're friend is getting so worked up about Bendis' mysogyny in this book. In this comic, we see a woman totally kicking the ass out of Dr Doom and the Dark Avengers, and even beats death itself.

[LordBifford]

In The Dark Knight Returns, Batman blames himself for every murder the Joker commits "by letting [him] live." Frank Miller's Batman was so influential, but it's still a unique Batman in some ways.

[comicculturewarrior]

I had a discussion with one of the writers in the Batman stable a while back about that very subject. I asserted that Batman was indirectly responsible for ever life the Joker took by not killing him. The response? 'Batman doesn't kill.' Of course, there is somewhat of an ideological disconnect when we consider certain realities versus comics, but that's what makes comics great: in comics we can be idealists. If heroes kill at will, what makes them different from villains?

Elliott

[LordBifford]

Who they kill and why is what would separate a hero from a villain. Do not make the common mistake in reasoning that a hero who is willing to kill will also be an evil, fascist bastard.

[comicculturewarrior]

No, not 'willing to kill' but 'kill at will' meaning that's the first thing that comes to mind when it comes to dealing with an enemy. In my mind, heroes save lives while villains take them, at least in the world of comics. If the real world were like that, it wouldn't be so bad would it?

Elliott

[LordBifford]

Why is it that fanboys never throw fits when heroes kill in other fiction? Why do we cheer Luke Skywalker or Arnie when they leave long trails of corpses in their wake?

[LordBifford]

I remember reading an Asterix comic book where Julius Caesar sends a legion comprised entirely of women to conquer the village, knowing that the Gauls' honor forbids men from fighting women, even ones that are armed and trained to kill.

[agmaster]

Well no, Jose said that's what people want, but HE doesn't agree with it. He's observant, but the odd man out as far as the market goes.

Poor guy.

[comicculturewarrior]

Oh, Jose and I are getting quite accustomed to having the minority opinion. Then again, just because the majority goes along with an idea, it doesn't always mean it's a good one. ;-)

Elliott

[BlackPhoenix06]

Spectacular episode, CCW. Jose's tirades are always worth the time out of my life it takes to watch.

[comicculturewarrior]

This is the second week in a row where Jose has had to do a recording session on two hours of sleep and when he doesn't get sleep he gets grouchy. Last week that happened and I thought he was awesome. When he told me he didn't get any sleep again this week, I told him 'this is gonna be great!' ;-)

Thanks for being a part of the conversation BlackPhoenix06!

Elliott

[deemar325]

To answer your question Jose, I initially liked the premise of DA (More so the Bulleye as Hawkeye deal) it intrigued me but your right it's kinda disturbing and beheading LeFay was cruel.

I don't think Bendis has editor oversight at this point, he says he does but c'mon no editor is gonna challenge him, they'll lose their job.

[agmaster]

Jose hit it right, audiences want the world they escape to to resemble their own.

[BlackPhoenix06]

LOL

[locusmortis]

No, Jose said the opposite :)

Thats why I'm loving comic books like Godland and Jersey Gods, stories of pure imagination and esapism told by adults for adults, not fake maturity and grimdarkness...

[agmaster]

I can't tell you what I like about that book specifically, but I like heroes with dark grey tones because their flaws and how they persist through it to try to do the right thing is admirable.

I'm thinking of the authority specifically and by no means am I calling DA as worthwhile as the worst of the authority, however they do share similarities. Granted all of the authority are heroes but in their case they realize they have to make the hard decisions even though they really can't.

[comicculturewarrior]

The DA aren't heroes by any stretch of the imagination. They are villains who are finally in the drivers seat when it come to determining the status quo. The Authority did what they did for the betterment of humanity. The DA do what they do for their own benefit. It will be interesting to see if Bendis takes the book in the direction where the villains, being in charge, realize it's not all that they thought it would be. 'Heavy is the head that wears the crown', eh?

Elliott

[BlackPhoenix06]

Sentry's a hero, isn't he? As easily minipulated as he is, whether he's a true hero or not is questionable, no? Incidentally, maybe you guys can do a video on how Sentry is a terrible character and is an overall detriment to the MU and its stories.Everyone knows this. Maybe its time for it to be said!

[comicculturewarrior]

Heroes don't rip the heads off of women.

Nuff said.

Elliott

[LordBifford]

What about men?

[comicculturewarrior]

Heroes don't kill. And if they do, never as the first option.

Elliott

[LordBifford]

And they sometimes pay a terrible price for their mercy.

[Pinkhamsterino]

Maybe it's a reflection of videogame morality seeping into comic books. The entire goal of Mortal Kombat was to score the goriest dismemberments possible, and the Grand Theft Auto series allows the hero to do most of this stuff (no dismemberments thus far). Even in Halo, which is less violent, the big deal now is players simulating rubbing their testicles on the face of players they've just killed in deathmatch. It all kind of speaks to a disrespect for human life and tolerance for cruelty.

[locusmortis]

spot on pinkhamsterino, its just another symptom of society as it is now.

theres always been violence in comics but now its just getting nasty and brutish. Its a disrespect for life and dignity like you say.

[Pinkhamsterino]

Okayyyyy... She doesn't die. (I hadn't read the comic.) What does it take, pulling out her brain and eating it?

[fanboydee]

question: if morgan lefay was a dude, would you have thought that moment was cool?

[comicculturewarrior]

I'm not gonna lie to you, fanboydee. If Lefay was a dude, that would have been a really cool moment. But the fact is that it it wasn't a dude, but a woman, and that seems to be a trend that's been going on in the Avengers books. Don't get us wrong, we're not saying that we're against violence in comics, and let's face it, that what makes superhero comics what they are, but this whole theme of women getting their heads shot/lobbed/smashed etc. has gotten old for Jose and I.

Just our opinion.

[fanboydee]

cool, i thought that's what you'd say...might have to hit you with a video response if i get time tomorrow - this subject is too big for a lil' comment box!

[comicculturewarrior]

I've been looking forward to seeing a video response from someone! Hope you can do it!

And thanks for being part of the conversation!

Elliott

[locusmortis]

I think the moment would have been just as stupid and fanwankish if Lefay had been a bloke. imo.

[comicculturewarrior]

Naw, I don't hate Bendis (although I can't speak for Jose) in fact I'm a fan. But does being a fan mean that I can't call him out on issues like violence towards women in his books?

And yeah, Morgan didn't die in the book, but what about all those other instances we point out in the segment involving other female characters?

Tell me what you think. Is it acceptable? Jose and I made our case in the video, we'd like to hear yours.

Thanks for commenting!

Elliott

[lugo012685]

Really do you truly just hate Bendis. I thought it was good. She didn't even die in the comic.

[locusmortis]

that whole time travel thing was the most bs cop-out i've seen in a comic in a long time.

It was still a hero ripping the head off a human being.

the time travel excuse is just a way for bendis to excuse his fanboy splash page head ripping off moment.