Are Tongues Necessary? Debate (David Bernard vs James White) 3/5

[ApostolicMinister12]

It's safe to believe that you must be a part of the body of Christ in order to be saved. Can you find one single scripture that says you can get in the body by only believing? The Bible does say however that we are "Baptized" into the body. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. SPIRIT BAPTISM.

[manualboyca]

@ApostolicMinister12 um.... John 3:16

[tyronb2009]

The emphasis is not Tongues but the filling on the Holy Ghost becuz when it comes down to it Tongues are not going to get you into heaven only the Holy Ghost just like shoes the Tongues come with IT! It just more of an assurrance to our beliefs that when he comes back with out a shadow of a doubt were going by faith in obedience to the scriptures..Now I don't have a Heaven or Hell to put nobody but I say this if its a gift or sign why not have it if its freely given of God!!...SELAH!

[7moseley7]

David Bernard you are the man brother!

[1love1Lord]

Good job Dr white? Dr Bernard put him in his place but he just hurt that he hasn't spoke in tounges, perhaps he should seek it.

[morrisondan]

Good job, Dr. White!

[bull1504]

Boy...Dr. Bernard was surely backpedaling after Dr. White carried his position to an end!!

[metanoeo1]

This Bernard talks in circles.

[filoIII]

Eph 2:8a For by grace are ye saved through faith. -That's present tense.

[filoIII]

The theif didn't speak in babbling tongues yet he went to heaven.

[7moseley7]

@filoIII Jesus said he would see him in Paradise not "Heaven". Understanding the kingdom of God is also very complex i suggest you do a study. But the holy ghost was not given bc jesus (flesh) wasnt dead yet. therefore his spirit was not yet poured out. The thief died under the law.

[higherground2050]

@7moseley7 But you can not limit God or make him logical by putting a time line or restriction on him. God is not logical like us. Logic is for man in the earthly realm. Just like how time is for earth and eternity is for heaven.

If Jesus said he would be in paradise then all bets are off and he went to paradise. Who can put a schedule or restriction on God.

[7moseley7]

@higherground2050 I wasnt puttin a restriction on God brother. Ive just been in an in-depth study on "The kingdom". Its interesting, study it.

[mikgorblack]

@filoIII Jesus didnt die yet when he spoke those words. The curtian was not torn and the thief did not fall under this new salvation plan. He still lived under the old law. The in filling of the Holy Ghost was to come after Jesus died. Thats what Jesus actually said. So to explain how the thief got to heaven, he confessed his sin to Jesus, and Jesus was that "lamb" sacrifice. The thief obtained salvation under the old plan before Jesus died.

[filoIII]

@mikgorblack You're saying Jesus DIDN'T die before the thief? You reject this passage? Heb 9:16-17  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

[TheDogfight55]

@filoIII He didn't tarry in a upper room several days later either and he didn't go to heaven first..he went to paradise

[metanoeo1]

@TheDogfight55 The word used for "Paradise" in that context is used in three places in the New Testament and all three refer to Heaven.

[TheDogfight55]

@metanoeo1 Well now you have all kinds of problems. Luke 16:22, Eph 4:8. John 20:17 is really an issue because he tells Mary he hasn't ascended to the father yet and it's 3 days later (TODAY thou shalt be with me in paradise). or 1Pet.3:19. The word Heaven is used 256 times in the N.T. and unless I missed a couple the definition is different than the word Paradise, "heaven" has an elevated twist in it's definition where as "paradise" just means park,etc.

[metanoeo1]

@TheDogfight55 No issue if you understand what the Bible says regarding the presence of God and that the word for Paradise in Luke 23:43 is used only 3 times in the NT - 2 Cor. 12:3 and Rev. 2:7 - and is the same word used for the garden of Eden in the LXX. In all three NT uses, it clearly refers to heaven, not a garden or a park. No elevated "twist" just a clear understanding of that word in Scripture.

[TheDogfight55]

@metanoeo1 You failed to account for Lk16:22, Eph4:8, Jn.20:17 or 1Pet.3:19 and the obvious fact that Heaven is a different word in the greek than paradise. Having looked into your theory regarding the lxx opinion, it clearly states that the word evolved into a later period and borrowed from the persian and states it's original meaning was and I quote"The word paradise is probably of Persian origin and signified originally a royal park or pleasure ground." (catholic dictionary)

[metanoeo1]

@TheDogfight55 Check in any Greek lexicon and consider the context of Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:3 and Revelation 2:7 and allow the Scripture to interpret itself, always the best way, and you see that "heaven" is a possibile definition for the word and the logical choice. As for what you claim I haven't accounted for, you're grasping at straws and trying to read things into Scripture. Also, your source is questionable at best - there are much better sources than a catholic dictionary.

[TheDogfight55]

@metanoeo1 "possible" definition. I have not debated the use of the word Paradise because clearly "paradisos" is the word that is used (3 times only) however the word heaven is "ooranos" meaning sky implying the abode of God (strongs). The word "ooranos" is used over 250 times so yea, I will let scripture interpet itself, heaven and paradise are not the same. The cath. dict. was just one source. avoiding the scriptures I used seems to be a pattern. 2 cor12:3 was the 3rd heaven btw not 1st

[filoIII]

Apostolics are definately heretical.

[Olmos4Christ]

God has given us a gift, it is a precious gift, and as his children, I believe we should be thankful for any gift our father gives us, to love the Lord, we need to have an open heart, and be sincere with our selves, the Holy Ghost Is a beautiful experience, a happy cry, a connection to our father, and a life changing experience, don't follow the world, but seek the things of God!!!! Bless u all

[MANUAIM]

Overall this is a nice discussion and D. Bernard sems to be a genuinely humble person. I like mature biblical discussions from opposing points of views, they are humbling. May ABBA give Dr. White the Baptism of the Holy Spirit experience according to the book of Acts.

[MANUAIM]

I want to add that Peter even after believing and repentance and (water baptism IF Jn.3:25-26 and Jn.4:1-2 is saying the disciples were water baptized unless they were by John the Baptist if not I don't know where they were water baptized) even after the Baptism of the Holy Spirit for Peter in Acts 2:4 in Acts 15:11 He says: "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

So here he affirms salvation is a process. I agree with D. Bernard.

[MANUAIM]

Yes Dr. Bernard was wise in his response and I applaud him on that. And then Dr. White then answers and explains in truth as to what many are saying that without tongues people are going to hell. Romans 10:6-8 is a wise declaration in this matter, and so is Rom.9:15-26.....So it is not wise to say someone is going to Hell, because that is to condemn them and Jesus said He came to save not condemn. However, Jn.3:3-7 is clear and so is Rom.8:9-11 but the bottom line is GOD has the last say so!

[higherground2050]

@MANUAIM If Romans 8:9-11 means the Holy Ghost then a lot (many millions) of sincere Christians who have passed on did not make it to heaven. How can this be?

[MANUAIM]

@higherground2050- Have you ever read Romans 9 on the doctrine that GOD in the end says who will make it and who will not.

I have so many scriptures on the Baptism of The Holy Spirit......Jesus was clear in John 3 also, nevertheless, my heart sir, is that GOD ALMIGHTY in the end will determine who will be rescued and who will not.

Let's say...I say people who have not received the Baptism of The Holy Spirit will make into heaven and YHVH says not so, or yea...What shall I do? See...shalom

[higherground2050]

@MANUAIM yes brother I believe in the baptism of the holy spirit. But not every believer has this gift. This gift empowers the believer. some in the church have this give and some don't. But they are all true believers living by faith whether they have it or not.

[higherground2050]

@Gwarrior0690 a sign for unbelivers and spiritual edification for the believer that has that gift.

[Gwarrior0690]

@higherground2050 Yeah I totally agree with you that It was a sing for the unbeliever, but were I disagree is in you saying that it was for the edification of the believer who had the gift for the Apostle Paul Rebuked the Church of Corinthians for doing it this way.

[MANUAIM]

@Gwarrior0690..

Part 1-I can't agree with you right here saying Paul rebuked them for using it as a edification for oneself. I'll explain why from both 1Cor.14 and Jude 1.....

#1- Paul was not simply rebuking them for individual edifcation, but rather for not exhorting collective edification OVER individual edification.

1Cor.14:4-He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

I will continue.....

[MANUAIM]

@Gwarrior0690-Part 2

1Cor.14

6-Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

16-Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17-For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Part 3 comin

[MANUAIM]

@Gwarrior0690-Part 2

1Cor.14

6-Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

16-Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17-For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Part 3 comin

[MANUAIM]

@Gwarrior0690- So Paul taught below as I posted that speaking in tongues was a individual edification, but as I posted also his focus in 1Cor.14 was not individual edification but collective edification.

Nevertheless, collective edifcation is not to make light of individual edifcation, thus he said forbid not speaking in tongues at the end of 1Cor.14 but also said let all things be done decent and in order.

The Jude passage is verse 24.....I'll post it....

[MANUAIM]

@Gwarrior0690- Sorry...I said it was 24 but it was v.20....I get those passages mixed up sometime both are my favorite in Jude.....

Jude 1:20-But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jude says to build yourselves up by praying in the Holy Ghost. Praying in the Holy Ghost is what Paul was talking about in 1Cor.14:14....

Building up the spirit man.....but also the same reason why he says pray for interpretation for the unknown tongue..

[Gwarrior0690]

@MANUAIM Of curse because there is no other way we can pray to God but By His Holy Spirit. Meaning being control by Him. Not necessarily speaking in tongues, because not all spoke in tongues like 1 Corinthians 12:31 well address it. Because if praying in the spirit recurred tongues it would of being mention that all of them should speak in tongues for praying motives, and the subject is not regarded to the Church as a whole. But few who had the gift and Paul regard it as lower gift 1Cori 14:5

[MANUAIM]

@Gwarrior0690-I understand it is not easy to get an understanding all the time in these little comment sections. I also do not believe that all have the gifts of tongues which was what 1Cor.12:31 was talking about..

It was not talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as the beginning of 1Cor.12 is dealing with those that have *already received the Holy Spirit. But was dealing with some of the gifts of The Holy Spirit....

[MANUAIM]

@Gwarrior0690-Can I also say Paul in 1Cor.14 mentioned both the understanding and in the spirit.....i.e. praying.....or singing....he wasn't necessarily saying that only speaking in tongues is the Holy Spirit exclusively thus around v.13-16 he mentions doing both...in the spirit and with the understanding.....and Paul did not regard it as a lower gift in 1Cor.14:5...he said prophesying is greater EXCEPT there is an interpretation and remember the theme is that *collective edification is better.

[MANUAIM]

@Gwarrior0690-I don't want to seem argumentative at all, just want you to look a little deeper as we all need to.....but 1Cor.14:5 Paul did not regard it as a lower gift *exclusively, he explained that *unless there is an interpretation of the unknown tongues then to prophesy is greater because collective edification equals a greater amount of people being edified.

Individual edifcation is awesome i.e. 1 soul being saved is awesome, but more than 1 being saved is even more awesome. Shalom..

[October31st1517]

Notice how at 3:33 Mr Bernard renounces UPC doctrine. The UPC has always taught that if you do not obey Acts 2:38 (as interpreted by the UPC) you are lost. He's actually on one hand trying to affirm this yet deny with the other.

[uberfatmoocow]

@October31st1517 I don't think he is denying it, he is only recognising that a Christian's walk is a journey and hence someone who hasn't been baptised in the Spirit just hasn't reached that part of the journey (notice he says 'God will judge' - not 'Spiritual baptism is not necessary’). I actually think this is a more constructive way to put it than to take the hardline approach that just alienates anyone that hasn't been brought up with that particular theology.

[October31st1517]

@uberfatmoocow Well if he is trying to deny it I applaud him. Oneness pentecostals take acts 2:28 out of context. The scripture clearly shows in acts 2:37 that the Holy Ghost was already at work and these men had already realized their need for a savior. These are the actions of someone who has already been regenerated. (1 John 5:1) I was raised pentecostal, but we were trinitarian.(Like most pentecostals)

[uberfatmoocow]

@October31st1517 I definitely agree that the scriptures are clear on the trinity. In regards to Acts 2:37.. I'm not sure if it can be taken in that way. It does say they were pricked in their hearts, but the reply in Acts 2:38 clearly says repent, be baptised and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. There is a clear differentiation in that repentance is something we do, and the filling is something God does. That is where the faith comes in.. that we believe that God WILL fill us

[October31st1517]

@uberfatmoocow 2 Tim. 2:24-26 clearly states that God GRANTS repentence, as does Acts 5:30,31 & Acts 11:17. This is not something that we work up on our own. Remember, That you are a Christian not because of anything you did, but what God has done. The reason these men's hearts were pricked was a work of the Holy Ghost. Therefore you can be assured when the bible says tobe "confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

[uberfatmoocow]

@October31st1517 If I understand you correctly, you are saying repentance / belief itself is all that is required for salvation and the filling of the Holy Spirit occurs at the time of repentance / belief. Doesn't that contradict the examples in Acts where believers receive the Spirit after their repentance (e.g. Acts 19:1-7. Note: They had already experienced baptism unto repentance [v4] prior to this experience)? Also note the question [v2]: Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?