Hey Jay ... How's your crook steals-from-old-people Mom doing ? Oh ya , she's DEAD ... and where she belongs ... IN HELL !!!!!! Where you're Dad is heading too.
hopefully you won't follow in their foot steps ... but when you get their inheritance I'm sure you'll do the right thing and return it to the families your family stole from or at least give it ALL to charity !
If you're in the Dallas area & wld like a live interactive Gay friendly venue to discuss these issues Living Faith Covenant Church Hosts the Maximizing Ministry Conference (MMC) Sat Nov 20, 2010 from 10:30am - 3:30pm. The theme is "Reconciling Faith w/Sexuality" Sessions topics: "What Really Happened at Sodom and Gomorrah?" - "Is God Angry about who I sleep with?" & "What's so Good about the Good News?" A 15.00 Donation is encouraged Lunch is provided Contact Living Faith on Facebook to R.S.V.P.
Sure there is when it's not the truth. Christianity is well known & documented for embelishing the truth of the Gospel to manipulate its followers & set up empire in the earth. I am Gay & I am a Christian neither of those terms do I particularly love. I guess a better way for me to say it is I am a follower of Christ that happens to be Same Gender Loving. Once I came to the realization that those two realities werent mutually exclusive of each other the power came back on in my walk with God.
You have no walk with God my lost friend, you are in complete rebellion against Him. There is no truth in you, just like there is no truth in Jay Bakker or Rockymtntruth either. It is an irony of ironies, that he even has the word "truth" in his name.
There is no such thing as a gay Christian. You show me someone who claims to be "gay" and "Christian" and I'll show you an unrepentant, unregenerated sinner.
So now you equate yourself with God in your ability to look upon another human beings heart & judge it's very intents. I did not nor will I receive a spirit that makes me a slave again to fear, Ive received the Spirit of sonship. & by him (Jesus) I cry, Abba, Father & The Spirit himself testifies with my spirit that I am God's child. Bro. We all have to come to God the same way through Jesus Christ so there really shouldn't be any such thing as a judgemental christian but evidently we have em.
Was Paul being judgmental when he pointed out the sin of those at the church at Corinth?
There is nothing in the Bible that precludes a Christian from judging, provided the judgment is a righteous judgment, which is based on the truth of God's Word.
@Whitese7en "Judge not lest ye be judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." (Matthew 7:1-2) Those words are in red. They are a response to the kind of judging the Pharisees were doing. Much like you. Looks like you're going to reap what you sow and you're sowing a tremendous amount of judgment for yourself.
Again, there is nothing in scripture that precludes a Christian from judging, provided the judgment is a righteous judgment, which is based on the truth of God's Word.
I'm not sowing judgment at all. I've already been judged my lost friend.
@Whitese7en Your judgment is not righteous judgment but Pharisaical self-righteous judgment. You appear to worship Paul and hardly ever talk about what Jesus has said that was written in red. You might as well be a Paul follower rather than a Christ follower.
It's not righteous to you, but to the Word of God(which is all I care about), it is indeed a righteous judgment. The reason being, is that my judgment is based on the Word of God and nothing else.
As to your question: No Paul wasnt being Judgemental. Paul dealt w/a specific situation in Corinth. Although it must have been a big deal if news of it got back to Paul wherever he was. It's not like they had phones. Paul I believe made a decision in the best interest of a church he planted & the individual involved & from a distance I might add. Paul also probably had a LOT of ingrained Judaic ideas of his own to contend with. Would he have made a different decision if he were actually there?
My point however, is that he judged someone based on sin and he was not wrong to do so. Christians are never wrong to make judgments which are righteous judgments based on the truth of the Word of God.
@Whitese7en Again you are making self-righteous judgments that are not good. They are in fact very divisive, very mean spirited and very evil in nature. Evil because people like you harm people. You harm gay people who want to be close to God but who are constantly harassed and told that their inner self is "broken" well I've got news for you. Gay people in and of themselves (their orientation) is NOT Broken. You're broken and you have proven so by your sick & twisted self-righteous hate.
No, I am making biblically righteous judgments, which are based solely on God's Word. Whenever and wherever the Word of God is proclaimed, it's going to be divisive. That is the nature of the Gospel and that is why Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword". His entire message is divisive. I am harming no one by speaking truth. The only one who is harming "gays", is Jay Bakker and those who continue to encourage his heretical teachings.
I think we also need to remeber that Paul wasnt Jesus & Paul though a very powerful testimony of what life in Christ can be like. Paul was just as human as you & me & had just as much potential to get things screwed up as you or I & I think he realized that too which is why I think he was always so grateful for the GRACE of God. What the Bible does say about Christians judging is that we need to be careful about it bcuz the same measure w/which we judge others by that measure we'll be judged.
By the same token what was Jesus' example of how to deal w/sinners. (which is all of us by the way) He said if they don't recieve you treat them as publicans or unbelievers but by example how did Jesus treat these? He dealt w/them w/compassion, he ate meals w/them even engaged in practices of social justice on behalf of those who were the outcasts. If Jesus ever passed judgement on anyone it was the religious minded folk who thought they had "righteousness" all wrapped up & figured out.
The woman at the well wasnt caught in anything. She was asked a question by Jesus & she answered it truthfully. She was a gentile & wasnt governed by Jewish law But she recognized who Jesus was & she was compelled by Jesus' interaction w/her to ask of him for the living water he spoke of. Even the story of the adulterous woman who was caught in the act couldve very well been a set up by religious folk to entrap Jesus. The one who was sleeping w/her very well may have been standing amongst them.
Read it again my friend. The woman at the well was indeed guilty of adultery.
As for the woman caught in a adultery, Jesus acknowledged that she had indeed sinned. Read that story again also, if you don't believe me.
I agree, the one she was caught with was most likely standing right there as one of her accusers. That, is why Jesus handled it the way He did. He knew the others were guilty of the very same sin.
Accusing her. Jesus drawing in the dirt less concerned about her sin. The focus of the story is these men who were void of mercy & failed to examine their own lives yet were prepared to stone this woman that each of them probably took their turn with. The message is the same then as it is now Jesus died for everybody "God so loved the world" not just church folk that believe everything I believe. What I dont understand is why Christians have such a problem w/ the concept of unconditional love?
@Mistabiggstuff I believe many Christians (especially religious fundamentalist Christians) have a problem with unconditional love because they want to feel that they are special. They want to believe that Jesus treats them as special and the other folks who are non-believers or outside their belief system as the not special ones. If they just believe Jesus they will be special like they are. It's an ego trip for many of them.
"No, it's biblical truth and nothing else." That's just what the Jehovah's Witness's argue. It's what the Branch Davidians have said as well. White7en what you are really saying is "no my interpretation of the Bible is the truth and nobody else's is correct because I know the answers and I'm right." That is nothing but pure arrogance.
There a huge difference however in what I'm saying. Everything I have said, is scriptural truth. The same can not be said about the Branch Davidians or the JW's.
That's exactly what they say about your interpretation of the Bible there Whitese7en. Various Christian sects just argue and contend with each other over many things. They've done that throughout most of history. You are just another example of many over the past 2 millennia.
Rocky what do you expect from a self-righteous, arrogant, Pharisaical lawyer like Whitese7en? You shouldn't expect anything less than this prick has to say. He's a holier than thou religious windbag.
Most Christians that I encounter seem to think that salvation is obtained by means other than faith in Jesus. or that they need to do something in addition to faith in Christ to obtain salvation. This provision was made for the whole world purely by God's decision to love us regardless of who we are & amazingly "while we were yet sinners" That's why it was the "good news" But religion as it often does feels the need to "improve" upon what God has already done inevitably producing more problems.
@Mistabiggstuff RIGHT ON! I think Paul (who was a mortal man who did great things) was a little bit full of himself sometimes. He definitely was steeped in O.T. Jewish legalism. Even after he had his epiphany he just replaced his Jewish legalism with a big C for Christian legalism. He also was a bit of a split personality. On the one hand he preached grace yet on the other he was often obsessed and conflicted with the issue of sin. His Jewish legalism may have been the thorn in his side.
Yes, he replaced law with grace. The reason being, is because that is how people are saved. They come to a realization that the law will never be able to save them, so they trust in Christ to save them instead. That is what we are all supposed to do, if we want to be saved.
@Whitese7en Paul was talking about people who were doing things that harmed and pained others. People who harm others through their own self-aggrandizement (stealing money from those who are poor) and selfishness definitely need to be corrected if possible.
@usisguy OF course you will no longer argue with gay Christian people or gay affirming heterosexual Christian people. That's because you think you're right and they are wrong. You keep emphasizing sin just like a self-righteous, holier than thou Pharisee.
He is right and they are wrong. The problem, is that because you are an unregenerated sinner, you can't distinguish between the truth and the deceptive lies of the enemy.
There are far more verses about heterosexual sins than that are unmistakable than there are about the obscure and ambiguous interpretations of some scriptures about homosexuality. I think people just love to use their belief systems to castigate and demonize "the other" which is proof of that old Tribal fearbased mindset of many humans.
"A sin is a sin my friend..." Yes and it's not your job to judge and make judgments against LGBT children of God. God is doing a great work to humble the high and mighty Pharisees among the Evangelicals and gay people are among the folks whom He uses to do this. His Spirit is among many gay Christians.
like I said before usisguy Yes and it's not your job to judge and make judgments against the LGBT children of God. Gay people's sins are just as plentiful as heterosexual peoples; but it's not their sexual orientation or their committed loving relationships that are the sin. You can go on and on about the Apostle Paul saying this or that but Jesus Christ said nothing about this issue and Paul is NOT God! Too many Christians treat Paul as though he were God.
@Whitese7en In case this went over you childish head anal rape was not uncommon as a sign of victory over an opponent (i.e. in the case of war) in the ancient world. It was a horrific, deprave act of humiliation. Rape (wether it is homosexual or heterosexual) has no more to do with the love shared by two committed loving gay people than it does about two loving heterosexual people. Rape is rape and it is a horrific, sickening and barbaric act.
I could not agree more. Rape is definitely a horrific, sickening and barbaric act. But, what this has to do with what were talking about, I have no idea.
@Whitese7en "Are you denying what I said, regarding the rape in question being homosexual in nature?" Talking about the rape discussed in the story of Sodam and Gomorrah. The fact that these men were intent on raping these angels is what I was talking about. That's the sin mentioned in that book.
@usisguy there are only 8 verses that refer to homosexuality. That's not "loads". And, I believe, most of these references are about Sodom and Gomorrah, which in itself, were not about homosexuality at all but about dominating people. Sodomites used anal sex as a way to assert dominance and THAT is a sin. NOT when there is love involved in a same gender relationship. Things are much different when sex is consensual.
Actually brennanahell these ministers and religious lot don't know their history very well. Some of Sodam & Gomorrah was known for their rape and taking from others what was not rightfully theirs. They attempted to rape angels in the story in the Old Testament. All these religious bigots can do is repeat old worn out bigoted stories that are not based in fact but in their dogmatic fiction.
Are you denying what I said, regarding the rape in question being homosexual in nature?
I see how you dodged i the question which is a common tactic of a lost person like yourself, who can't effectively refute the Word of God. Attack and destroy the messenger, rather than deal with the message itself.
Ezekiel 16:49 (King James Version) 49Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. There is no mention of homosexuality being the sin that brought Gods wrath upon the city of sodom.
Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Yes, S&G were indeed prideful, no question about that, but that is not the sin they were destroyed for. Being prideful, is not a capital offense. Being prideful, is what led to their fornication and sexual immorality, which is what they were ultimately destroyed for.
I didnt realize God had capitol offenses, I always thought the wages of sin was death & that Jesus paid the price for sin once & for all. (it is finished) But just for the sake of argument Prov 6:16-19 These 6 things doth the LORD hate; yea, 7 are an abomination unto him: a proud look, a lying tongue, & hands that shed innocent blood a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, he that soweth discord among brethren.
Yes, God definitely has "capitol offenses" at least according to Jewish Law. Adultery and homosexuality(which is a form of adultery) are just two offenses that were punishable by death.
Yes, God absolutely hates pride, which is at the root of all sin, no question about that, but, it is not an offense punishable by death in accordance with Jewish Law. It just isn't so. If you believe it is, please provide a verse that says so.
Ok I am now supposing the you have chosen to live under Jewish Law? or that I give you Galatians 5:1-6 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
No, I haven't chosen to live by the law. I have been saved by grace going on 24 years now. Just because I defend and proclaim the truth of scripture concerning the sin of homosexuality, it doesn't mean I have chosen to live under the Law. Read what Paul wrote in Romans 6:1-2.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love
If you are going to live by any part of the Law then you are required to live by all of it and by choosing to do so you nullify the work of the cross in your life. Are you really willing to take that chance?
And yeah I can see God having a problem with humans having sex with Angels and or animals. (Strange Flesh) which is also quite possibly what is being described in Jude. None of these references point to Same gender affectioned or Homo-sexual Identified persons as being particularly abomnible to God.
Ok again you are dealing with Jewish Law and Customs. ..and if you really look at it you wont find a prohibition of sex outside of marriage at least for men anyway. Men could sleep with pretty much whoever they wanted as long as it wasn't another man's wife or a part of idolotrous worship. If a woman had sex before marriage she was pretty much culturally branded as a whore or a concubine the only thing that brought about the death penalty was if either of the partners were married. And it
Gen 2:24, was not written to the Jews exclusively.
In Leviticus, homosexuals were to be put to death.
Lev 20:13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
A man could not just "sleep with pretty much whoever they wanted". That is absolutely incorrect. There were dire consequences for those who disregarded God's law concerning sex.
seem that God didn't have any problem with men having more than one wife and God only knows how many other concubines. So our ideas & definitions of fornication & adultery cuturally are vastly different from what they actually were in the times that the Bible was written. I would say God has a problem with unbridled sexual activity that is outside of the species, or has no regard for the individuals that are participating, sex that degrades, demeans or harms & or is outside of God's love ethic.
The church is trying to take control yet again in how they define all marriages as "one man and one woman" and again the government and the law are going to be the final word in taking the sword of the Constitution to powerfully cut off religious control over civil marriage.
Unfortunately that kind of sex often occurs whether you are married or not. Now if you are married then thats another ball game where covenants are involved and God is very serious about covenants. And believers especially ought to honor the covenants they make w/their own mouthes and before God. But the idea that idea that everybody has to be married in order to have sex is a church idea not necessarily a Bible or dare I say a God idea. And I realize I just opened up another can of worms..lol
Mistabiggstuff that totally makes sense what you wrote. I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says you have to be married in a church. It's the religious zealots (like whitese7en who try to force people to believe their pompous, holier than thou dogma as though his interpretation of the bible is the one true interpretation. It was the government who finally wrestled away the church's controlling domain over marriage as though the church was the only entity that could marry people.
Yes, it was that but it was also homosexuality that S&G were guilty of.
God also has a "problem" with humans having sex with each other as well, when not married, or when the person one is having sex with, is of the same gender.
They absolutely point to same gender sex being one of the many sins of S&G.
I would have to emphatically oppose that position. As I study the Genisis 2:24 passage I notice that the speaker changes from God to Moses hence the passage should'n't be taken as a direct command from God. But more an explanation of things by Moses as he understands them. Also again there is absolutely no indication in the story of S&G that these men were Gay. A very similar story occurs in Judges 19:1-30 & it is clear that what is intended by the custom is violent rape & gender didnt matter.
"Also again there is absolutely no indication in the story of S&G that these men were Gay."
You can't possibly be serious with this statement.
Have you ever even read the following verse?
Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
If these men were not gay, they sure had a funny way of showing it.
Presuming you are a male - if you forced another man to have sex w/you would that make you gay? If YOU were forced into sex w/another male would that make you gay? NO! It would make you a rapist or a rape victim. Even if you consentually participate in gay sex it doesnt necesarily make you gay anymore than if I as a gay man had sex w/a woman make me straight. The story of S&G wasn't about gay people but about hate, greed, selfishness, pride, gluttony & violence things God actually does abhor.
In most peoples minds, yes, that would make you gay. A gay man, is a man that either willingly does have sex with other men, or that does desire to have sex with other men.
No, if a man was forced against his will to have sex with a man, no, that would not make him gay. It would however make him a victim of rape.
My Word, S&G were destroyed due to their sexual immorality, of which, homosexuality was a chief culprit. "All the men of the city" tried to have sexual relations with the two strangers who were also in the form of men. C'mon, get real!! You have no argument and you know it, which is why you are so desperately grasping at straws. "The men of Sodom were wicked sinners". When God says this, He doesn't mince words.
Most people's minds? Ok education moment. The act of having sex does NOT determine ones sexual orientation. A person can be Gay or Straight & choose to not have sex at all. One can choose to exert physical or mental power over another by sexually violating them regardless of gender this is called rape & has no bearing on one's sexual orientation in fact it is often indictative of the perps hatred for the gender of the victim. Sexuality is primarily determined by biology in some cases by choice.
There are those that have sex for money with all genders & this has no impact on whether they themselves are gay or straight. There are those who are gay who are functioning in marriages & the sex is not making them any less gay. There are men in prison having sex w/each other but as soon as they get out will resume straight lives Sex does not make you Gay or Straight.
Innate sexual orientation is what it is. It is the default so to speak. Those who are gay who are functioning in heterosexual marriages are quite often conflicted and have a tough time. I know of many such folks. There are some who can do it but most have not been able to for a sustained time. It's obviously against their innate nature. It's just plain wrong because women deserve to be loved wholly (sexually as well as spiritually) and not in part. It's not fair to women to live a lie.
Adam didn't have a Father or a Mother to leave from. Until humans devise marriage customs there was no such thing you won't find anything in the Bible about how people were supposed to cerimonialy get married. In fact before there were weddings and laws surronding who was a wife and who was a concubine it was whoever the man decided to have sex with that made them one. or his wife or whatever. Weddings are a human institution marriages involve covenants & covenants are not gender specific.
The Genesis model for marriage, wasn't supposed to BE Adam & Eve, it was only supposed to BE LIKE Adam & Eve. Because He made them male(Adam) and female(Eve), for this cause a man will leave his parents and cleave unto his wife and the two will become one flesh.(Gen2:24) This is a general statement that was made that laid the foundation for marriage. This wasn't for Adam and Eve, it was for those who would come after Adam & Eve.
So we should take it as God's word when Paul said slaves obey your masters and women should keep silent in the church? And perhaps we need to ban the eating of shellfish & the playing of football & make sure we kill everyone who has ever remarried after getting a divorce. Like I said if you want to live by any part of the law then you are bound to live by all of it. It's what the Book says.
It also says that the law was weak. We keep forgeting that Faith in God was the 1st form of righteous living (Abraham) the law came later. (Moses) God has from the beginning desired to interact w/humanity from a place of faith & not a list of rules. So basically as the Bible states WHOSOEVER will believe (FAITH) on the Lord Jesus Christ shall NOT perish but they SHALL have everlasting life.
And New revelation as I am sitting here typing this Thank you Holy Spirit. There was no law about men lying w/men at the time of S&G. So even if they were Gay what Law of God were they breaking since the law did not exist until Moses? The text does not indicate anything else other than what is stated in Eze 16:49-50
Whether the law had been given yet or not, is irrelevant. Sin did exist in the world at that time. Sin, came into the picture, in Genesis 3. From that point forward, the Law did not have to exist for God to declare someone a sinner.
He Himself, declared (before the giving of the law) that the men of Sodom were not just "sinners", but "WICKED SINNERS".
Ok I can go with that but there is no way that we can declare that the sin of Sodom was homosexuality the text just does not support it. Now we can say that as much as we want and even believe it if we want but we can not declare it as the truth because there is and never has been any basis for it. What there is basis for are the sins I mentioned before.
The fact, that they attempted to break down Lot's door in order to get to the men, is evidence enough that the men of the city were indeed homosexual. If you deny that simple fact, you are being intellectually dishonest.
..and did God not judge the city of Gibeah because they instead chose to rape the concubine all night long as opposed to having gay sex w/the Levite traveler they originally surrounded the house beating on the door & demanded for?
"The fact, that they attempted to break down Lot's door in order to get to the men, is evidence enough that the men of the city were indeed homosexual. If you deny that simple fact, you are being intellectually dishonest." Have you spoken to the Jewish rabbi's about their understanding of these passages? They will tell you something quite different than the opinion you grew up believing.
There is no indication in the text that Gen 2:24 is a model for marriage one might be able to thinly argue that it might be an idealistic model for parenting but with so many examples of horrible heterosexual parenting I can't imagine it holding up under any scrutiny. The strongest biblical model we can get from Genisis is that of human procreation. Not to minimize the miraculous of the so many species God has created that can reproduce on their own or w/out even having sex.
"There is no indication in the text that Gen 2:24 is a model for marriage"????
Can you read?
Where verse 24 says "THEREFORE", what is being done, is two ideas or statements are being linked together. "Therefore", is used to communicate to the reader that there is a cause/effect relationship between the two statements that are being linked together.
This is a general statement that man(the male of the species) will leave his parents and cleave unto his wife(the female of the species) and they (man & wife) shall be one flesh.
Btw, "cleave", means to "be joined".
Sorry bud, but God gives no other provision for marriage, in the Bible. None, nada, zip, zilch.
Ok Adam states the obvious then Moses makes an observation about the imformation he has & in the culture in which he lives he make a determination in the context of what makes sense to him. Nothing wrong with that, just maybe not completely applicable to 21 century America. I can imagine Moses do his best to answer questions like "How did we get here?" As a Dad would who did not have all the answers himself. Doing his best with the knowledge that he had.
I think its neat too that there seems to be two accounts of the creation of mankind in Gen. 1 in Ch 1 & another in Ch 2. In Ch 1 the argument could be made that Adam was created a bi-gendered species that is described as "in the Image of God" "..created he them" could be written pluaralistic just as when God says Let 'US" make man in "OUR" own image. So the diverse gender expressions that we see in humanity today could very well be a reflection of the image of God in us of our original state.
I wasn't refering to you. I don't know you that well to know whether you have just taken the EZ road or really looked @ scripture as its ability to trancend our realities. But other people read these comments too. I was referring to those who might be seeking answers. I want to stimulate thought. That's why I try to stay away from personal attacks. I don't believe thats the character or nature of the Spirit of God. I simply do my best to present what I believe to be true & let God do the rest.
There's only one account, which is divided into two parts. The first part, is a general chronological account and the second part, is an expansion of the first part. The expansion, focuses on the creation of man.
@Whitese7en "I see how you dodged i the question which is a common tactic of a lost person like yourself, who can't effectively refute the Word of God. Attack and destroy the messenger, rather than deal with the message itself." LMAO. A crackpot like you should talk about dodging questions. All you do is respond with dogma. The men of Sodham who wanted to rape that angel were showing forth what is called "phallic aggression."
Also 1776 the words malakoi and arsenokoitai are translated the way they are today in several modern bible translations because cultural bias has crept into these translations. It doesn't surprise me that you would stick with the old corrupt translation of the dark ages because it supports your religious dogma.
Also 1776 look up Jason & DeMarco sometime on YouTube and learn about another wonderful same gender couple who are deeply committed to Christ. The fruits of the Spirit follow them. If that happens with a same gender couple (which it does) then this is certainly a mystery and proof yet that God is above all and not beholden to the Pharisaical rules that too many Christians try to force on Him or expect of Him. He knows infinitely more about this issue than you do 1776.
1776iscoming watch the video The Bible Tells Me So and try to think about the reality of the homophobic tradition that has permeated much of Christianity for quite a long time. There are several Christian Churches that are gay affirming. The Society of Friends (Quakers) are another one. That does not mean they accept gay people or heterosexuals being promiscuous, drug addicted, etc. They do all they can to reach out and help people to overcome their addiction to drugs, sex, etc.
You are saying the God changed His moral standard after He came to this earth. I'm not just focusing on homosexuality like some people do, it just so happens, that's what this video is about I can say the same thing about "pastors" who preach the word of faith thing and made idols out of money, it's unbiblical and downright evil.
A lot of pastors make Idols out of money and it's very insidious. To speak about gay people in a loving, kind and positive way the way that Jay does is very Christlike. You're pretty stupid to not believe that God changed His way of doing things after He sent His Son. If you think God is a static being then you worship a stone cold rock. Also (again) there are some things that Paul wrote that are his own opinion and not God's will. Women having to shut up in Church is one example.
1776 "There is no evidence for your argument, it has always been understood to mean homosexuals. The Greek "soft men" has never been understood any other way until recently. You're going to believe what you want, I just pray that the Holy Spirit shows you the truth and that you'll listen to Him, later." Man alive you're in major denial. There is plenty of evidence that is what that word means. It has not been understood that way for a long time because of lying Pastors and corrupt translators
Again 1776iscoming the self-righteous Pharisee is ignoring the fact that Jesus did condemn divorce very loudly and clearly yet many Pastors and Church leaders get divorced even for reasons other than their spouse being unfaithful. That's called hypocrisy 1776 and I see it a lot in the Evangelical community. They (like the Pharisees) love to condemn others but man alive when the tables are turned they can't handle it. It's pretty pathetic.
Dude you keep trying to say that I'm being hypocritical, no, I'm being true to scripture. I don't believe any man or woman of God should advocate or prop up any sinful lifestyle or act, divorce or homosexuality. The Spirit of God, who lives in those that accept Jesus as Lord, would not urge any true believer to advocate or accept living in sin. You are trying to pick/choose and twist scripture to what you want it to say. Paul's letters are as God inspired as any other scripture in the Bible.
Paul's ORIGINAL Greek letters are God inspired, however several (not all) modern translations are not translated correctly and have flaws. Homosexual orientation in & of itself is NOT sinful anymore than heterosexual orientation. Orientation is a gift from God. What we do with that orientation is our Gift back to Him. If you act in promiscuity then that's one thing but being true to that person whom you love is not condemned. You're the one who is twisting scripture to suit your bigotry!
Well, all I can say is that I hope the blinders fall from your eyes, you are decieving yourself and your eternal home is hanging in the balance. God bless you.
1776iscoming Nice. Thanks for the sweet & kind response. With friends like this who needs enemies?
One thing is for sure you can't talk common sense or critique tradition with someone who has already made his mind up and even if u show in original ancient Greek that "Malakoi" NEVER meant homosexual but actually meant "soft" like soft clothing you won't believe it because you are so indoctrinated by tradition.
There is no evidence for your argument, it has always been understood to mean homosexuals. The Greek "soft men" has never been understood any other way until recently. You're going to believe what you want, I just pray that the Holy Spirit shows you the truth and that you'll listen to Him, later.
Hey 1776 do even bother arguing with people who are blind being lead by the blind.The Bible says that a time will come when man will not endure sound doctrine.They do not even understand what a pharasie is.
One thing that I disagree with however, is that divorce is not a sin in and of itself. What I mean by that, is even though God does hate divorce, it is allowed under certain circumstances.
Your obsession with "sin" tells us a lot about your Pharisaical, judgmental, lifestyle yourself. Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments. That is to love God and to love your neighbor, upon this hangs all the law and the prophets. That means He fulfilled the law and His grace is infinite. Nobody ever could keep the law as we are all imperfect beings. When we follow Jesus we strive to be like Him. Jesus never said one thing about homosexuality. He condemned divorce very clearly.
If I was having an adulterous relationship, would you tell me that I was living a Godly life? You keep bringing up these pastors who have fallen, so what? I'd think they(if they are biblical, true Christians)would tell you that they're lifestyle contradicted scripture. It sounds like you are prideful and are unsuccessfully trying to justify sinful lifestyles. I've been there man, not in the same way, but I've been apart from God, while believing it was no big deal. Jesus told us to repent..
1776iscoming an adulterous relationship is living with someone you are not married to when you are married to someone else. If you are gay and not married to anyone and fall in love (which most gay people naturally do just like heterosexual people do), date, court and then marry that person as legally as possible, live in love and trust with that person (even raise kids which many gay couples do) that so called "lifestyle" is vastly different than if someone were to go out and be promiscuous.
People have to be EXTREMELY careful when they become Christians and those who are currently Christians need to be extremely careful that you seriously question the history of the Bible, exegesis and that you question the dogma that has grown up with the Bible after it was compiled several hundred years after the founding of Christianity. Too many Christians just take what is fed to them by their pastors/leaders and say "amen" and "hallelujah" without ever questioning the interpretation.
Also 1776 are you aware of how Paul was steeped and brewed in Jewish law and legalistic thought? Paul's Jewish legalism just switched over to his version of Christian legalism. Why do you think he told women to shut their mouths in Church? So you do pick and choose what the hell you want to believe and completely ignore other passages including Jesus deeply condemning words on divorce. Yet your pastors and other leaders have had divorces and remarriages many times. You're all hypocrites!
This must be the first time you've seen him, both he and his mom advocate homosexual "marriage". He's advocating the lifestyle, that is not biblical in the least.
It's time Christians started questioning the history of the Bible and the translations of the Bible as opposed to letting themselves be brainwashed by traditional interpretation that just is not verified by historical inquiry and looking at the original texts. Too much tradition has corrupted the modern interpretation of some of the Bible. It's time Christians got out of that arrogant and Pharisaical rut and started being humble. Many Christians can't seem to live without being special.
No, this guy is picking and choosing scripture. He is leading people to hell and will be judged. Nobody is perfect, but this guy is justifying sin, which true repentence is not compatible with.
How is Bakker justifying sin? If u are going to quote from Leviticus, Deuteronomy & the story of Sodom, please spare me your literal interpretation of these quotes. Also u say he picks & chooses scripture when u seem to be doing just that. The bible says to stone ur children to death if they are disobedient.(Deuteronomy 21: 18-21) Do u approve of that law? Self-righteous & judging Christians like u who would cast the 1st stone at others pick & choose bibical laws for your convenience to follow!
Sorry man, I'm not picking and choosing anything. The civil law that you spoke of, as well as the ceremonial laws of the OT became irrelevent once Christ died and was resurrected because they all pointed to Him and were fulfilled through Him. They also showed how serious God views sin. Homosexuality is not only condemned in the OT either, i.e. Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9. I'm not singling out any sin though, I would have said the same thing if he was trying to justify lying or murder.
Furthermore, I'm not judging anybody, he is in fact going to be judged by God more harshly since he has chosen to teach. He is teaching a false gospel. Would you feel the same if the man was telling others that murder is tolerated in scripture?
Lovechild6969 you're right about some Christians who cast the first stone at others picking and choosing biblical laws for their own convenience. They do this to support their homophobic tradition which tradition is not based in ancient Christianity. Homophobic theology is a modern phenomenon and interpretation of ancient scripture.
1776iscoming - Christians pick and choose what they will emphasize in scripture and have been doing so since scripture was even written. Obviously the Levitical laws are no longer in effect as Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. So you can eat shellfish and pork now. Everyone interprets scripture in various ways within a certain parameter. The Lord looks at the heart and Jay Bakker's heart is a heart of love as he is a lover of peace and the Prince of Peace who is Jesus Christ.
Jackson, I have no doubt that this man loves people. My problem is that he is propping himself up as a teacher of God's holy word and he's telling people it's ok to engage in sexual lifestlyes other than that which God established. God's moral law never changes, this guy is leading people on a path to eternity apart from God.
1776iscoming. You have absolutely no Idea what he is teaching. Have you ever been to one of his meetings? You are so self-righteous and judgmental it's not funny. We don't need another modern Christian Pharisee of which there are far too many in Christianity. That's what you're acting like and being like and it drives people away from Church. You're blinded self-righteous mind can't see that though. It's pretty pathetic.
1776iscoming you need to go to Evangelicals Concerned Website and learn how gay Christians are changing as a result of coming to Christ AS THEY ARE! They have found their lives have changed profoundly. It's a remarkable thing how the Spirit works. Some fellow Christians who are anti-gay deny that reality but the sun still shines on gay Christians no matter how much anti-gay Christians deny it.
I don't hate people that practice this lifestyle. I would say the same thing about anybody that calls themselves a Christian and supports, turns the other way while their congregation is involved in pedophilia, pornography, bestiality, adulterous affairs, theft, whatever. He is preaching false doctrine and leading people further away from Christ. Christ taught repentance, as well as grace and faith.
1776iscoming you show me a Christian Church that supports and upholds pedophilia, pornography, bestiality and affairs. You're comments are incredibly Medieval and ignorant.
To compare loving, committed same gender couples to pedophiles and addicts (pornography) is not only downright insulting and hurtful it is seriously flawed thinking and based in ignorance and lies. It's time you got out of your narrow little box and started educating yourself.
I'm sorry man, it is a lifestyle that is condemned in the Bible, the OT and the NT. It is not the only sinful lifestyle by any means, but the biggest one I see trying to be justified by liberal christians.
I'm sorry man yourself you're interpretation is dead WRONG. You really know how to pick and choose what you want to believe to support your stupid bigotry. So you pick the Levitical scriptures which also state that you should not wear fabric of different weaves, not eat shell fish, not eat pork, not to mention not have sex with your wife while she is menstruating. These are all considered abominations. Do you know how arcane and sexist those patriarchal laws are? Man you're dense!
No, you are picking and choosing. God's word says that all scripture is God inspired. There were ceremonial, civil and moral laws in the OT. When Jesus died and was resurrected, He fulfilled the ceremonial and civil laws, they pointed towards Him and forshadowed HIm. God's moral law is eternal, it is what makes Him perfectly holy and righteous. You are trying to justify a condemned lifestyle because you don't like what it says, it's pride. I was living in an adulterous relationship, cont'd.
1776iscoming WRONG!! You are quoting from a modern interpretation of an ancient book. Your modern interpretation is quite far removed from the ancient one.
So why are we not taking up the torch against those who remarry after divorce. Is this not also living a sinful lifestyle? This was somthing Jesus clearly spoke against.
Yes but Jesus said if they get divorced let them not remarry. Havent done the statistics on it but Im willing to bet theres a huge portion of mordern christianity who have remarried after a divorce in direct defiance of the instructions of Christ but somehow manage to rely on their understanding of Gods Grace which they believe justifies them while they are living in what can be clearly defined as sinful lifestyle yet Gods Grace is sufficient for these people but somehow not for the Gay person.
@Mistabiggstuff Sorry, I missed this comment the first time.
They are only to not remarry if the divorce was not scriptural.
Matt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
@Whitese7en Reading this passage I wld have to disagree with you. The passage just doesnt say that. Even if that were the case. How many people do we see getting repeatedly divorced & remarried for things as trivial irreconcilable differences, but yet it's Gay people who are "destroying the sanctity of the institution of marriage?" No one marching around w/God HATES your ADULTUROUS LIVING signs outside the 1-2-3 Divorce Law c
@Whitese7en The word grace means unmerited favor.....
joshpgarner 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hey Jay ... How's your crook steals-from-old-people Mom doing ? Oh ya , she's DEAD ... and where she belongs ... IN HELL !!!!!! Where you're Dad is heading too.
hopefully you won't follow in their foot steps ... but when you get their inheritance I'm sure you'll do the right thing and return it to the families your family stole from or at least give it ALL to charity !
BAKKERS = THEIVES !!!!!!!
IamLate4You 1 year ago
"One punk under God" ? What the hell is that.
Dude. Your parents are Jim and Tammy Fae! Make a clean break, Give up the Christian dogma and just be yourself.
pushover1 1 year ago
If you're in the Dallas area & wld like a live interactive Gay friendly venue to discuss these issues Living Faith Covenant Church Hosts the Maximizing Ministry Conference (MMC) Sat Nov 20, 2010 from 10:30am - 3:30pm. The theme is "Reconciling Faith w/Sexuality" Sessions topics: "What Really Happened at Sodom and Gomorrah?" - "Is God Angry about who I sleep with?" & "What's so Good about the Good News?" A 15.00 Donation is encouraged Lunch is provided Contact Living Faith on Facebook to R.S.V.P.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
(Deep Breath) Ah the good old christian anthem ...I HATE YOU.....in love.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
There's nothing hateful about telling people the truth regarding the sin of homosexuality.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Sure there is when it's not the truth. Christianity is well known & documented for embelishing the truth of the Gospel to manipulate its followers & set up empire in the earth. I am Gay & I am a Christian neither of those terms do I particularly love. I guess a better way for me to say it is I am a follower of Christ that happens to be Same Gender Loving. Once I came to the realization that those two realities werent mutually exclusive of each other the power came back on in my walk with God.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
@Mistabiggstuff RIGHT ON!! That is awesome!!
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
You have no walk with God my lost friend, you are in complete rebellion against Him. There is no truth in you, just like there is no truth in Jay Bakker or Rockymtntruth either. It is an irony of ironies, that he even has the word "truth" in his name.
There is no such thing as a gay Christian. You show me someone who claims to be "gay" and "Christian" and I'll show you an unrepentant, unregenerated sinner.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
So now you equate yourself with God in your ability to look upon another human beings heart & judge it's very intents. I did not nor will I receive a spirit that makes me a slave again to fear, Ive received the Spirit of sonship. & by him (Jesus) I cry, Abba, Father & The Spirit himself testifies with my spirit that I am God's child. Bro. We all have to come to God the same way through Jesus Christ so there really shouldn't be any such thing as a judgemental christian but evidently we have em.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
Was Paul being judgmental when he pointed out the sin of those at the church at Corinth?
There is nothing in the Bible that precludes a Christian from judging, provided the judgment is a righteous judgment, which is based on the truth of God's Word.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
@Whitese7en "Judge not lest ye be judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." (Matthew 7:1-2) Those words are in red. They are a response to the kind of judging the Pharisees were doing. Much like you. Looks like you're going to reap what you sow and you're sowing a tremendous amount of judgment for yourself.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
Again, there is nothing in scripture that precludes a Christian from judging, provided the judgment is a righteous judgment, which is based on the truth of God's Word.
I'm not sowing judgment at all. I've already been judged my lost friend.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
@Whitese7en Your judgment is not righteous judgment but Pharisaical self-righteous judgment. You appear to worship Paul and hardly ever talk about what Jesus has said that was written in red. You might as well be a Paul follower rather than a Christ follower.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
It's not righteous to you, but to the Word of God(which is all I care about), it is indeed a righteous judgment. The reason being, is that my judgment is based on the Word of God and nothing else.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
As to your question: No Paul wasnt being Judgemental. Paul dealt w/a specific situation in Corinth. Although it must have been a big deal if news of it got back to Paul wherever he was. It's not like they had phones. Paul I believe made a decision in the best interest of a church he planted & the individual involved & from a distance I might add. Paul also probably had a LOT of ingrained Judaic ideas of his own to contend with. Would he have made a different decision if he were actually there?
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
No, I think he would have made the same decision.
My point however, is that he judged someone based on sin and he was not wrong to do so. Christians are never wrong to make judgments which are righteous judgments based on the truth of the Word of God.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
@Whitese7en Again you are making self-righteous judgments that are not good. They are in fact very divisive, very mean spirited and very evil in nature. Evil because people like you harm people. You harm gay people who want to be close to God but who are constantly harassed and told that their inner self is "broken" well I've got news for you. Gay people in and of themselves (their orientation) is NOT Broken. You're broken and you have proven so by your sick & twisted self-righteous hate.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
No, I am making biblically righteous judgments, which are based solely on God's Word. Whenever and wherever the Word of God is proclaimed, it's going to be divisive. That is the nature of the Gospel and that is why Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword". His entire message is divisive. I am harming no one by speaking truth. The only one who is harming "gays", is Jay Bakker and those who continue to encourage his heretical teachings.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
I think we also need to remeber that Paul wasnt Jesus & Paul though a very powerful testimony of what life in Christ can be like. Paul was just as human as you & me & had just as much potential to get things screwed up as you or I & I think he realized that too which is why I think he was always so grateful for the GRACE of God. What the Bible does say about Christians judging is that we need to be careful about it bcuz the same measure w/which we judge others by that measure we'll be judged.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
Yes, we need to be certain our judgment is righteous before we judge anyone. I could not agree more.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
By the same token what was Jesus' example of how to deal w/sinners. (which is all of us by the way) He said if they don't recieve you treat them as publicans or unbelievers but by example how did Jesus treat these? He dealt w/them w/compassion, he ate meals w/them even engaged in practices of social justice on behalf of those who were the outcasts. If Jesus ever passed judgement on anyone it was the religious minded folk who thought they had "righteousness" all wrapped up & figured out.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
Was the woman at the well "religious minded folk who thought they had "righteousness" all wrapped up & figured out"?
or
Was the woman caught in adultery "religious minded folk who thought they had "righteousness" all wrapped up & figured out"?
No my friend, Jesus didn't limit His judgments to just the "religious minded folk".
Whitese7en 2 years ago
The woman at the well wasnt caught in anything. She was asked a question by Jesus & she answered it truthfully. She was a gentile & wasnt governed by Jewish law But she recognized who Jesus was & she was compelled by Jesus' interaction w/her to ask of him for the living water he spoke of. Even the story of the adulterous woman who was caught in the act couldve very well been a set up by religious folk to entrap Jesus. The one who was sleeping w/her very well may have been standing amongst them.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
Read it again my friend. The woman at the well was indeed guilty of adultery.
As for the woman caught in a adultery, Jesus acknowledged that she had indeed sinned. Read that story again also, if you don't believe me.
I agree, the one she was caught with was most likely standing right there as one of her accusers. That, is why Jesus handled it the way He did. He knew the others were guilty of the very same sin.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Accusing her. Jesus drawing in the dirt less concerned about her sin. The focus of the story is these men who were void of mercy & failed to examine their own lives yet were prepared to stone this woman that each of them probably took their turn with. The message is the same then as it is now Jesus died for everybody "God so loved the world" not just church folk that believe everything I believe. What I dont understand is why Christians have such a problem w/ the concept of unconditional love?
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
@Mistabiggstuff I believe many Christians (especially religious fundamentalist Christians) have a problem with unconditional love because they want to feel that they are special. They want to believe that Jesus treats them as special and the other folks who are non-believers or outside their belief system as the not special ones. If they just believe Jesus they will be special like they are. It's an ego trip for many of them.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
No, it's biblical truth and nothing else.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
"No, it's biblical truth and nothing else." That's just what the Jehovah's Witness's argue. It's what the Branch Davidians have said as well. White7en what you are really saying is "no my interpretation of the Bible is the truth and nobody else's is correct because I know the answers and I'm right." That is nothing but pure arrogance.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
There a huge difference however in what I'm saying. Everything I have said, is scriptural truth. The same can not be said about the Branch Davidians or the JW's.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
That's exactly what they say about your interpretation of the Bible there Whitese7en. Various Christian sects just argue and contend with each other over many things. They've done that throughout most of history. You are just another example of many over the past 2 millennia.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
Rocky what do you expect from a self-righteous, arrogant, Pharisaical lawyer like Whitese7en? You shouldn't expect anything less than this prick has to say. He's a holier than thou religious windbag.
Jacksonholenativ 1 year ago
What makes you think we have a problem with "unconditional love"?
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Most Christians that I encounter seem to think that salvation is obtained by means other than faith in Jesus. or that they need to do something in addition to faith in Christ to obtain salvation. This provision was made for the whole world purely by God's decision to love us regardless of who we are & amazingly "while we were yet sinners" That's why it was the "good news" But religion as it often does feels the need to "improve" upon what God has already done inevitably producing more problems.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
@Mistabiggstuff RIGHT ON! I think Paul (who was a mortal man who did great things) was a little bit full of himself sometimes. He definitely was steeped in O.T. Jewish legalism. Even after he had his epiphany he just replaced his Jewish legalism with a big C for Christian legalism. He also was a bit of a split personality. On the one hand he preached grace yet on the other he was often obsessed and conflicted with the issue of sin. His Jewish legalism may have been the thorn in his side.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
Yes, he replaced law with grace. The reason being, is because that is how people are saved. They come to a realization that the law will never be able to save them, so they trust in Christ to save them instead. That is what we are all supposed to do, if we want to be saved.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
@Whitese7en Paul was talking about people who were doing things that harmed and pained others. People who harm others through their own self-aggrandizement (stealing money from those who are poor) and selfishness definitely need to be corrected if possible.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
No, the passage I'm referring to, he's talking about people involved in sexual sins.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
I pray you people wake up, I will no longer argue with you.
usisguy 2 years ago 2
@usisguy OF course you will no longer argue with gay Christian people or gay affirming heterosexual Christian people. That's because you think you're right and they are wrong. You keep emphasizing sin just like a self-righteous, holier than thou Pharisee.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
He is right and they are wrong. The problem, is that because you are an unregenerated sinner, you can't distinguish between the truth and the deceptive lies of the enemy.
You're sadly lost my deceived friend.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
This man is a heritic, becareful of this Goat Herder.Homosexuality is a sin!There are loads of versses that prove it.
usisguy 2 years ago 2
There are far more verses about heterosexual sins than that are unmistakable than there are about the obscure and ambiguous interpretations of some scriptures about homosexuality. I think people just love to use their belief systems to castigate and demonize "the other" which is proof of that old Tribal fearbased mindset of many humans.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
A sin is a sin my friend, we all and I mean all come short of the Glory of God.
In Love,
Usisguy
usisguy 2 years ago 5
"A sin is a sin my friend..." Yes and it's not your job to judge and make judgments against LGBT children of God. God is doing a great work to humble the high and mighty Pharisees among the Evangelicals and gay people are among the folks whom He uses to do this. His Spirit is among many gay Christians.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
like I said before usisguy Yes and it's not your job to judge and make judgments against the LGBT children of God. Gay people's sins are just as plentiful as heterosexual peoples; but it's not their sexual orientation or their committed loving relationships that are the sin. You can go on and on about the Apostle Paul saying this or that but Jesus Christ said nothing about this issue and Paul is NOT God! Too many Christians treat Paul as though he were God.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
I is our job to proclaim truth, which is all that usisguy and I, are doing.n It is the truth which judges you, not us.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
@Whitese7en In case this went over you childish head anal rape was not uncommon as a sign of victory over an opponent (i.e. in the case of war) in the ancient world. It was a horrific, deprave act of humiliation. Rape (wether it is homosexual or heterosexual) has no more to do with the love shared by two committed loving gay people than it does about two loving heterosexual people. Rape is rape and it is a horrific, sickening and barbaric act.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
I could not agree more. Rape is definitely a horrific, sickening and barbaric act. But, what this has to do with what were talking about, I have no idea.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
@Whitese7en "Are you denying what I said, regarding the rape in question being homosexual in nature?" Talking about the rape discussed in the story of Sodam and Gomorrah. The fact that these men were intent on raping these angels is what I was talking about. That's the sin mentioned in that book.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
Amen friend!! You speak truth.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
@usisguy there are only 8 verses that refer to homosexuality. That's not "loads". And, I believe, most of these references are about Sodom and Gomorrah, which in itself, were not about homosexuality at all but about dominating people. Sodomites used anal sex as a way to assert dominance and THAT is a sin. NOT when there is love involved in a same gender relationship. Things are much different when sex is consensual.
brennahell 2 years ago
Actually brennanahell these ministers and religious lot don't know their history very well. Some of Sodam & Gomorrah was known for their rape and taking from others what was not rightfully theirs. They attempted to rape angels in the story in the Old Testament. All these religious bigots can do is repeat old worn out bigoted stories that are not based in fact but in their dogmatic fiction.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
Yes, and that attempted rape was homosexual.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
@Whitese7en You're so damned brainwashed in your cult that you can't even see reality. You bask and love being in your self-righteousness.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
Are you denying what I said, regarding the rape in question being homosexual in nature?
I see how you dodged i the question which is a common tactic of a lost person like yourself, who can't effectively refute the Word of God. Attack and destroy the messenger, rather than deal with the message itself.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Ezekiel 16:49 (King James Version) 49Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. There is no mention of homosexuality being the sin that brought Gods wrath upon the city of sodom.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Yes, S&G were indeed prideful, no question about that, but that is not the sin they were destroyed for. Being prideful, is not a capital offense. Being prideful, is what led to their fornication and sexual immorality, which is what they were ultimately destroyed for.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
I didnt realize God had capitol offenses, I always thought the wages of sin was death & that Jesus paid the price for sin once & for all. (it is finished) But just for the sake of argument Prov 6:16-19 These 6 things doth the LORD hate; yea, 7 are an abomination unto him: a proud look, a lying tongue, & hands that shed innocent blood a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, he that soweth discord among brethren.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
Yes, God definitely has "capitol offenses" at least according to Jewish Law. Adultery and homosexuality(which is a form of adultery) are just two offenses that were punishable by death.
Yes, God absolutely hates pride, which is at the root of all sin, no question about that, but, it is not an offense punishable by death in accordance with Jewish Law. It just isn't so. If you believe it is, please provide a verse that says so.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
It would seem as though if there were capitol offenses with God PRIDE would literally be at the TOP of the list.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
Not according to Jewish Law.
Pride is something which leads people to commit capitol offenses, however it is not a capitol offense itself.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Ok I am now supposing the you have chosen to live under Jewish Law? or that I give you Galatians 5:1-6 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
No, I haven't chosen to live by the law. I have been saved by grace going on 24 years now. Just because I defend and proclaim the truth of scripture concerning the sin of homosexuality, it doesn't mean I have chosen to live under the Law. Read what Paul wrote in Romans 6:1-2.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Just because those of us who are saved are now under grace, it doesn't give us a license to sin.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
If you are going to live by any part of the Law then you are required to live by all of it and by choosing to do so you nullify the work of the cross in your life. Are you really willing to take that chance?
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
And yeah I can see God having a problem with humans having sex with Angels and or animals. (Strange Flesh) which is also quite possibly what is being described in Jude. None of these references point to Same gender affectioned or Homo-sexual Identified persons as being particularly abomnible to God.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
He has problems with people having sex in any way that is outside of His boundaries for marriage and sex.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Ok again you are dealing with Jewish Law and Customs. ..and if you really look at it you wont find a prohibition of sex outside of marriage at least for men anyway. Men could sleep with pretty much whoever they wanted as long as it wasn't another man's wife or a part of idolotrous worship. If a woman had sex before marriage she was pretty much culturally branded as a whore or a concubine the only thing that brought about the death penalty was if either of the partners were married. And it
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
Gen 2:24, was not written to the Jews exclusively.
In Leviticus, homosexuals were to be put to death.
Lev 20:13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
A man could not just "sleep with pretty much whoever they wanted". That is absolutely incorrect. There were dire consequences for those who disregarded God's law concerning sex.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
seem that God didn't have any problem with men having more than one wife and God only knows how many other concubines. So our ideas & definitions of fornication & adultery cuturally are vastly different from what they actually were in the times that the Bible was written. I would say God has a problem with unbridled sexual activity that is outside of the species, or has no regard for the individuals that are participating, sex that degrades, demeans or harms & or is outside of God's love ethic.
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
The church is trying to take control yet again in how they define all marriages as "one man and one woman" and again the government and the law are going to be the final word in taking the sword of the Constitution to powerfully cut off religious control over civil marriage.
Jacksonholenativ 1 year ago
Sex that is not between a man and woman exclusively, is outside of God's plan, period.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
Unfortunately that kind of sex often occurs whether you are married or not. Now if you are married then thats another ball game where covenants are involved and God is very serious about covenants. And believers especially ought to honor the covenants they make w/their own mouthes and before God. But the idea that idea that everybody has to be married in order to have sex is a church idea not necessarily a Bible or dare I say a God idea. And I realize I just opened up another can of worms..lol
Mistabiggstuff 2 years ago
Mistabiggstuff what you have presented here is excellent. Much to think about too.
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
Mistabiggstuff that totally makes sense what you wrote. I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says you have to be married in a church. It's the religious zealots (like whitese7en who try to force people to believe their pompous, holier than thou dogma as though his interpretation of the bible is the one true interpretation. It was the government who finally wrestled away the church's controlling domain over marriage as though the church was the only entity that could marry people.
Jacksonholenativ 1 year ago
No one is saying that one must be married "in a church", only that one must be married, period.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
No, it's a "Bible idea".
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
Yes, it was that but it was also homosexuality that S&G were guilty of.
God also has a "problem" with humans having sex with each other as well, when not married, or when the person one is having sex with, is of the same gender.
They absolutely point to same gender sex being one of the many sins of S&G.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
I would have to emphatically oppose that position. As I study the Genisis 2:24 passage I notice that the speaker changes from God to Moses hence the passage should'n't be taken as a direct command from God. But more an explanation of things by Moses as he understands them. Also again there is absolutely no indication in the story of S&G that these men were Gay. A very similar story occurs in Judges 19:1-30 & it is clear that what is intended by the custom is violent rape & gender didnt matter.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
"Also again there is absolutely no indication in the story of S&G that these men were Gay."
You can't possibly be serious with this statement.
Have you ever even read the following verse?
Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
If these men were not gay, they sure had a funny way of showing it.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
Presuming you are a male - if you forced another man to have sex w/you would that make you gay? If YOU were forced into sex w/another male would that make you gay? NO! It would make you a rapist or a rape victim. Even if you consentually participate in gay sex it doesnt necesarily make you gay anymore than if I as a gay man had sex w/a woman make me straight. The story of S&G wasn't about gay people but about hate, greed, selfishness, pride, gluttony & violence things God actually does abhor.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
In most peoples minds, yes, that would make you gay. A gay man, is a man that either willingly does have sex with other men, or that does desire to have sex with other men.
No, if a man was forced against his will to have sex with a man, no, that would not make him gay. It would however make him a victim of rape.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
My Word, S&G were destroyed due to their sexual immorality, of which, homosexuality was a chief culprit. "All the men of the city" tried to have sexual relations with the two strangers who were also in the form of men. C'mon, get real!! You have no argument and you know it, which is why you are so desperately grasping at straws. "The men of Sodom were wicked sinners". When God says this, He doesn't mince words.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
Most people's minds? Ok education moment. The act of having sex does NOT determine ones sexual orientation. A person can be Gay or Straight & choose to not have sex at all. One can choose to exert physical or mental power over another by sexually violating them regardless of gender this is called rape & has no bearing on one's sexual orientation in fact it is often indictative of the perps hatred for the gender of the victim. Sexuality is primarily determined by biology in some cases by choice.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
Right on Mistaabiggstuff.
Jacksonholenativ 1 year ago
There are those that have sex for money with all genders & this has no impact on whether they themselves are gay or straight. There are those who are gay who are functioning in marriages & the sex is not making them any less gay. There are men in prison having sex w/each other but as soon as they get out will resume straight lives Sex does not make you Gay or Straight.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
Innate sexual orientation is what it is. It is the default so to speak. Those who are gay who are functioning in heterosexual marriages are quite often conflicted and have a tough time. I know of many such folks. There are some who can do it but most have not been able to for a sustained time. It's obviously against their innate nature. It's just plain wrong because women deserve to be loved wholly (sexually as well as spiritually) and not in part. It's not fair to women to live a lie.
Jacksonholenativ 1 year ago
Adam didn't have a Father or a Mother to leave from. Until humans devise marriage customs there was no such thing you won't find anything in the Bible about how people were supposed to cerimonialy get married. In fact before there were weddings and laws surronding who was a wife and who was a concubine it was whoever the man decided to have sex with that made them one. or his wife or whatever. Weddings are a human institution marriages involve covenants & covenants are not gender specific.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
The Genesis model for marriage, wasn't supposed to BE Adam & Eve, it was only supposed to BE LIKE Adam & Eve. Because He made them male(Adam) and female(Eve), for this cause a man will leave his parents and cleave unto his wife and the two will become one flesh.(Gen2:24) This is a general statement that was made that laid the foundation for marriage. This wasn't for Adam and Eve, it was for those who would come after Adam & Eve.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
Regardless of whether or not it was God speaking or Moses speaking, it is still the Word of God.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
So we should take it as God's word when Paul said slaves obey your masters and women should keep silent in the church? And perhaps we need to ban the eating of shellfish & the playing of football & make sure we kill everyone who has ever remarried after getting a divorce. Like I said if you want to live by any part of the law then you are bound to live by all of it. It's what the Book says.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
It also says that the law was weak. We keep forgeting that Faith in God was the 1st form of righteous living (Abraham) the law came later. (Moses) God has from the beginning desired to interact w/humanity from a place of faith & not a list of rules. So basically as the Bible states WHOSOEVER will believe (FAITH) on the Lord Jesus Christ shall NOT perish but they SHALL have everlasting life.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
And New revelation as I am sitting here typing this Thank you Holy Spirit. There was no law about men lying w/men at the time of S&G. So even if they were Gay what Law of God were they breaking since the law did not exist until Moses? The text does not indicate anything else other than what is stated in Eze 16:49-50
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
LOL!! The Holy Spirit didn't tell you anything.
Whether the law had been given yet or not, is irrelevant. Sin did exist in the world at that time. Sin, came into the picture, in Genesis 3. From that point forward, the Law did not have to exist for God to declare someone a sinner.
He Himself, declared (before the giving of the law) that the men of Sodom were not just "sinners", but "WICKED SINNERS".
Whitese7en 1 year ago
Ok I can go with that but there is no way that we can declare that the sin of Sodom was homosexuality the text just does not support it. Now we can say that as much as we want and even believe it if we want but we can not declare it as the truth because there is and never has been any basis for it. What there is basis for are the sins I mentioned before.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
The fact, that they attempted to break down Lot's door in order to get to the men, is evidence enough that the men of the city were indeed homosexual. If you deny that simple fact, you are being intellectually dishonest.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
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Were all the men in the city of Gibeah Gay too? Judges 19 1-30?
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
..and did God not judge the city of Gibeah because they instead chose to rape the concubine all night long as opposed to having gay sex w/the Levite traveler they originally surrounded the house beating on the door & demanded for?
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
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Jacksonholenativ 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"The fact, that they attempted to break down Lot's door in order to get to the men, is evidence enough that the men of the city were indeed homosexual. If you deny that simple fact, you are being intellectually dishonest." Have you spoken to the Jewish rabbi's about their understanding of these passages? They will tell you something quite different than the opinion you grew up believing.
Jacksonholenativ 1 year ago
Were all the men in the city of Gibeah Gay too? Judges 19 1-30?
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
There is no indication in the text that Gen 2:24 is a model for marriage one might be able to thinly argue that it might be an idealistic model for parenting but with so many examples of horrible heterosexual parenting I can't imagine it holding up under any scrutiny. The strongest biblical model we can get from Genisis is that of human procreation. Not to minimize the miraculous of the so many species God has created that can reproduce on their own or w/out even having sex.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
"There is no indication in the text that Gen 2:24 is a model for marriage"????
Can you read?
Where verse 24 says "THEREFORE", what is being done, is two ideas or statements are being linked together. "Therefore", is used to communicate to the reader that there is a cause/effect relationship between the two statements that are being linked together.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 [THEREFORE] shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
This is a general statement that man(the male of the species) will leave his parents and cleave unto his wife(the female of the species) and they (man & wife) shall be one flesh.
Btw, "cleave", means to "be joined".
Sorry bud, but God gives no other provision for marriage, in the Bible. None, nada, zip, zilch.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
Ok Adam states the obvious then Moses makes an observation about the imformation he has & in the culture in which he lives he make a determination in the context of what makes sense to him. Nothing wrong with that, just maybe not completely applicable to 21 century America. I can imagine Moses do his best to answer questions like "How did we get here?" As a Dad would who did not have all the answers himself. Doing his best with the knowledge that he had.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
I think its neat too that there seems to be two accounts of the creation of mankind in Gen. 1 in Ch 1 & another in Ch 2. In Ch 1 the argument could be made that Adam was created a bi-gendered species that is described as "in the Image of God" "..created he them" could be written pluaralistic just as when God says Let 'US" make man in "OUR" own image. So the diverse gender expressions that we see in humanity today could very well be a reflection of the image of God in us of our original state.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
You're grasping at straws dude.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
Not grasping at straws just presenting perspectives that help people ask questions rather than merely swallowing whatever is being spoon fed to them.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
"Spoonfed" LOL!! No one, and I mean NO ONE, spoonfeeds me.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
I wasn't refering to you. I don't know you that well to know whether you have just taken the EZ road or really looked @ scripture as its ability to trancend our realities. But other people read these comments too. I was referring to those who might be seeking answers. I want to stimulate thought. That's why I try to stay away from personal attacks. I don't believe thats the character or nature of the Spirit of God. I simply do my best to present what I believe to be true & let God do the rest.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
I appreciate your staying away from personal attacks. I will do the same in the future, with you.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
There's only one account, which is divided into two parts. The first part, is a general chronological account and the second part, is an expansion of the first part. The expansion, focuses on the creation of man.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
@Whitese7en "I see how you dodged i the question which is a common tactic of a lost person like yourself, who can't effectively refute the Word of God. Attack and destroy the messenger, rather than deal with the message itself." LMAO. A crackpot like you should talk about dodging questions. All you do is respond with dogma. The men of Sodham who wanted to rape that angel were showing forth what is called "phallic aggression."
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
I don't dodge questions my lost friend.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
@Whitese7en Mistabiggstuff does a far better job of stating what I need to say and what I should say!
Rockymtntruth 2 years ago
No surprise there, because he's incorrect.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
The verses prove nothing except that homophobia is as old as dirt.
mojo001103 2 years ago
Also 1776 the words malakoi and arsenokoitai are translated the way they are today in several modern bible translations because cultural bias has crept into these translations. It doesn't surprise me that you would stick with the old corrupt translation of the dark ages because it supports your religious dogma.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
The traditional creeds of the fathers have been strongly riveted upon the hearts of the children.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
Also 1776 look up Jason & DeMarco sometime on YouTube and learn about another wonderful same gender couple who are deeply committed to Christ. The fruits of the Spirit follow them. If that happens with a same gender couple (which it does) then this is certainly a mystery and proof yet that God is above all and not beholden to the Pharisaical rules that too many Christians try to force on Him or expect of Him. He knows infinitely more about this issue than you do 1776.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
LOL!! I just watched "Jason & DeMarco". Please explain to me what exactly that was supposed to have proven to me?
"Jason & DeMarco", is proof of nothing, except 2nd Tim 4:3-4, which I didn't need proven to me because you prove that every time you post.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
1776iscoming watch the video The Bible Tells Me So and try to think about the reality of the homophobic tradition that has permeated much of Christianity for quite a long time. There are several Christian Churches that are gay affirming. The Society of Friends (Quakers) are another one. That does not mean they accept gay people or heterosexuals being promiscuous, drug addicted, etc. They do all they can to reach out and help people to overcome their addiction to drugs, sex, etc.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
You are saying the God changed His moral standard after He came to this earth. I'm not just focusing on homosexuality like some people do, it just so happens, that's what this video is about I can say the same thing about "pastors" who preach the word of faith thing and made idols out of money, it's unbiblical and downright evil.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
A lot of pastors make Idols out of money and it's very insidious. To speak about gay people in a loving, kind and positive way the way that Jay does is very Christlike. You're pretty stupid to not believe that God changed His way of doing things after He sent His Son. If you think God is a static being then you worship a stone cold rock. Also (again) there are some things that Paul wrote that are his own opinion and not God's will. Women having to shut up in Church is one example.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
1776 "There is no evidence for your argument, it has always been understood to mean homosexuals. The Greek "soft men" has never been understood any other way until recently. You're going to believe what you want, I just pray that the Holy Spirit shows you the truth and that you'll listen to Him, later." Man alive you're in major denial. There is plenty of evidence that is what that word means. It has not been understood that way for a long time because of lying Pastors and corrupt translators
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
Again 1776iscoming the self-righteous Pharisee is ignoring the fact that Jesus did condemn divorce very loudly and clearly yet many Pastors and Church leaders get divorced even for reasons other than their spouse being unfaithful. That's called hypocrisy 1776 and I see it a lot in the Evangelical community. They (like the Pharisees) love to condemn others but man alive when the tables are turned they can't handle it. It's pretty pathetic.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
Dude you keep trying to say that I'm being hypocritical, no, I'm being true to scripture. I don't believe any man or woman of God should advocate or prop up any sinful lifestyle or act, divorce or homosexuality. The Spirit of God, who lives in those that accept Jesus as Lord, would not urge any true believer to advocate or accept living in sin. You are trying to pick/choose and twist scripture to what you want it to say. Paul's letters are as God inspired as any other scripture in the Bible.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
Paul's ORIGINAL Greek letters are God inspired, however several (not all) modern translations are not translated correctly and have flaws. Homosexual orientation in & of itself is NOT sinful anymore than heterosexual orientation. Orientation is a gift from God. What we do with that orientation is our Gift back to Him. If you act in promiscuity then that's one thing but being true to that person whom you love is not condemned. You're the one who is twisting scripture to suit your bigotry!
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
Well, all I can say is that I hope the blinders fall from your eyes, you are decieving yourself and your eternal home is hanging in the balance. God bless you.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
1776iscoming Nice. Thanks for the sweet & kind response. With friends like this who needs enemies?
One thing is for sure you can't talk common sense or critique tradition with someone who has already made his mind up and even if u show in original ancient Greek that "Malakoi" NEVER meant homosexual but actually meant "soft" like soft clothing you won't believe it because you are so indoctrinated by tradition.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
There is no evidence for your argument, it has always been understood to mean homosexuals. The Greek "soft men" has never been understood any other way until recently. You're going to believe what you want, I just pray that the Holy Spirit shows you the truth and that you'll listen to Him, later.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
Hey 1776 do even bother arguing with people who are blind being lead by the blind.The Bible says that a time will come when man will not endure sound doctrine.They do not even understand what a pharasie is.
usisguy 2 years ago 2
That time is definitely here my friend.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
White just shake the dust off your feet.
usisguy 2 years ago
AMEN Friend!!!! You speak truth.
One thing that I disagree with however, is that divorce is not a sin in and of itself. What I mean by that, is even though God does hate divorce, it is allowed under certain circumstances.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
from all sin. We'll never be perfect, but we should strive to live sin free. Jesus said if you love Him, then you'd obey Him. That says it all.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
Your obsession with "sin" tells us a lot about your Pharisaical, judgmental, lifestyle yourself. Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments. That is to love God and to love your neighbor, upon this hangs all the law and the prophets. That means He fulfilled the law and His grace is infinite. Nobody ever could keep the law as we are all imperfect beings. When we follow Jesus we strive to be like Him. Jesus never said one thing about homosexuality. He condemned divorce very clearly.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
If I was having an adulterous relationship, would you tell me that I was living a Godly life? You keep bringing up these pastors who have fallen, so what? I'd think they(if they are biblical, true Christians)would tell you that they're lifestyle contradicted scripture. It sounds like you are prideful and are unsuccessfully trying to justify sinful lifestyles. I've been there man, not in the same way, but I've been apart from God, while believing it was no big deal. Jesus told us to repent..
1776iscoming 2 years ago
1776iscoming an adulterous relationship is living with someone you are not married to when you are married to someone else. If you are gay and not married to anyone and fall in love (which most gay people naturally do just like heterosexual people do), date, court and then marry that person as legally as possible, live in love and trust with that person (even raise kids which many gay couples do) that so called "lifestyle" is vastly different than if someone were to go out and be promiscuous.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
AMEN!!!! He certainly did tell us to repent.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
People have to be EXTREMELY careful when they become Christians and those who are currently Christians need to be extremely careful that you seriously question the history of the Bible, exegesis and that you question the dogma that has grown up with the Bible after it was compiled several hundred years after the founding of Christianity. Too many Christians just take what is fed to them by their pastors/leaders and say "amen" and "hallelujah" without ever questioning the interpretation.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
Also 1776 are you aware of how Paul was steeped and brewed in Jewish law and legalistic thought? Paul's Jewish legalism just switched over to his version of Christian legalism. Why do you think he told women to shut their mouths in Church? So you do pick and choose what the hell you want to believe and completely ignore other passages including Jesus deeply condemning words on divorce. Yet your pastors and other leaders have had divorces and remarriages many times. You're all hypocrites!
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
This must be the first time you've seen him, both he and his mom advocate homosexual "marriage". He's advocating the lifestyle, that is not biblical in the least.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
arrogance.
Alex123456797 3 years ago
It's time Christians started questioning the history of the Bible and the translations of the Bible as opposed to letting themselves be brainwashed by traditional interpretation that just is not verified by historical inquiry and looking at the original texts. Too much tradition has corrupted the modern interpretation of some of the Bible. It's time Christians got out of that arrogant and Pharisaical rut and started being humble. Many Christians can't seem to live without being special.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
Wow...Pastor Jay Bakker has a deep understanding of Jesus & the Bibles message of LOVE, even with his wife Amanda. Way to go!
lovechild6969 3 years ago
No, this guy is picking and choosing scripture. He is leading people to hell and will be judged. Nobody is perfect, but this guy is justifying sin, which true repentence is not compatible with.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
How is Bakker justifying sin? If u are going to quote from Leviticus, Deuteronomy & the story of Sodom, please spare me your literal interpretation of these quotes. Also u say he picks & chooses scripture when u seem to be doing just that. The bible says to stone ur children to death if they are disobedient.(Deuteronomy 21: 18-21) Do u approve of that law? Self-righteous & judging Christians like u who would cast the 1st stone at others pick & choose bibical laws for your convenience to follow!
lovechild6969 2 years ago 2
Sorry man, I'm not picking and choosing anything. The civil law that you spoke of, as well as the ceremonial laws of the OT became irrelevent once Christ died and was resurrected because they all pointed to Him and were fulfilled through Him. They also showed how serious God views sin. Homosexuality is not only condemned in the OT either, i.e. Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9. I'm not singling out any sin though, I would have said the same thing if he was trying to justify lying or murder.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
Furthermore, I'm not judging anybody, he is in fact going to be judged by God more harshly since he has chosen to teach. He is teaching a false gospel. Would you feel the same if the man was telling others that murder is tolerated in scripture?
1776iscoming 2 years ago
Lovechild6969 you're right about some Christians who cast the first stone at others picking and choosing biblical laws for their own convenience. They do this to support their homophobic tradition which tradition is not based in ancient Christianity. Homophobic theology is a modern phenomenon and interpretation of ancient scripture.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
1776iscoming - Christians pick and choose what they will emphasize in scripture and have been doing so since scripture was even written. Obviously the Levitical laws are no longer in effect as Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. So you can eat shellfish and pork now. Everyone interprets scripture in various ways within a certain parameter. The Lord looks at the heart and Jay Bakker's heart is a heart of love as he is a lover of peace and the Prince of Peace who is Jesus Christ.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
Jackson, I have no doubt that this man loves people. My problem is that he is propping himself up as a teacher of God's holy word and he's telling people it's ok to engage in sexual lifestlyes other than that which God established. God's moral law never changes, this guy is leading people on a path to eternity apart from God.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
1776iscoming. You have absolutely no Idea what he is teaching. Have you ever been to one of his meetings? You are so self-righteous and judgmental it's not funny. We don't need another modern Christian Pharisee of which there are far too many in Christianity. That's what you're acting like and being like and it drives people away from Church. You're blinded self-righteous mind can't see that though. It's pretty pathetic.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
1776iscoming you need to go to Evangelicals Concerned Website and learn how gay Christians are changing as a result of coming to Christ AS THEY ARE! They have found their lives have changed profoundly. It's a remarkable thing how the Spirit works. Some fellow Christians who are anti-gay deny that reality but the sun still shines on gay Christians no matter how much anti-gay Christians deny it.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
I don't hate people that practice this lifestyle. I would say the same thing about anybody that calls themselves a Christian and supports, turns the other way while their congregation is involved in pedophilia, pornography, bestiality, adulterous affairs, theft, whatever. He is preaching false doctrine and leading people further away from Christ. Christ taught repentance, as well as grace and faith.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
1776iscoming you show me a Christian Church that supports and upholds pedophilia, pornography, bestiality and affairs. You're comments are incredibly Medieval and ignorant.
To compare loving, committed same gender couples to pedophiles and addicts (pornography) is not only downright insulting and hurtful it is seriously flawed thinking and based in ignorance and lies. It's time you got out of your narrow little box and started educating yourself.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
I'm sorry man, it is a lifestyle that is condemned in the Bible, the OT and the NT. It is not the only sinful lifestyle by any means, but the biggest one I see trying to be justified by liberal christians.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
I'm sorry man yourself you're interpretation is dead WRONG. You really know how to pick and choose what you want to believe to support your stupid bigotry. So you pick the Levitical scriptures which also state that you should not wear fabric of different weaves, not eat shell fish, not eat pork, not to mention not have sex with your wife while she is menstruating. These are all considered abominations. Do you know how arcane and sexist those patriarchal laws are? Man you're dense!
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
No, you are picking and choosing. God's word says that all scripture is God inspired. There were ceremonial, civil and moral laws in the OT. When Jesus died and was resurrected, He fulfilled the ceremonial and civil laws, they pointed towards Him and forshadowed HIm. God's moral law is eternal, it is what makes Him perfectly holy and righteous. You are trying to justify a condemned lifestyle because you don't like what it says, it's pride. I was living in an adulterous relationship, cont'd.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
1776iscoming WRONG!! You are quoting from a modern interpretation of an ancient book. Your modern interpretation is quite far removed from the ancient one.
Jacksonholenativ 2 years ago
"It is not the only sinful lifestyle by any means, but the biggest one I see trying to be justified by liberal christians."
...which in most cases, are not Christian at all.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
So why are we not taking up the torch against those who remarry after divorce. Is this not also living a sinful lifestyle? This was somthing Jesus clearly spoke against.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
Because divorce is not a sin in and of itself.
It can be, but it is not always a sin. Divorce is allowed under certain circumstances. Yes, God hates all divorce, but He does allow it.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
Yes but Jesus said if they get divorced let them not remarry. Havent done the statistics on it but Im willing to bet theres a huge portion of mordern christianity who have remarried after a divorce in direct defiance of the instructions of Christ but somehow manage to rely on their understanding of Gods Grace which they believe justifies them while they are living in what can be clearly defined as sinful lifestyle yet Gods Grace is sufficient for these people but somehow not for the Gay person.
Mistabiggstuff 1 year ago
@Mistabiggstuff Sorry, I missed this comment the first time.
They are only to not remarry if the divorce was not scriptural.
Matt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Whitese7en 1 year ago
@Whitese7en Reading this passage I wld have to disagree with you. The passage just doesnt say that. Even if that were the case. How many people do we see getting repeatedly divorced & remarried for things as trivial irreconcilable differences, but yet it's Gay people who are "destroying the sanctity of the institution of marriage?" No one marching around w/God HATES your ADULTUROUS LIVING signs outside the 1-2-3 Divorce Law c