Full refutation of John Barker's most significant points in his Don Exodus video!

[lnTheFlesh]

A simple look at the world around me would only show that humanity in general does not follow an objective moral law. Humanity in general does not understand the bigger picture which is necessary in order to come up with an objective moral law. We don't know what happens after death among many other things and our lack of knowledge inhibits us from knowing the full consequences of our actions.

[Mithcoriel]

It's a bit uncomfortable to hear him say one thing and read you say something else. I couldn't really concentrate on either.

[Jabullz]

Um.......this is my theory. because this is based on my name so......fuck you and Im right. Way to go Jeff goldbloom.

[banonKING]

This guy really shouldn't bring up the "We know that rape and murder is wrong in our hearts" coming from a Judo-Christian god....  Does anyone READ the flippin' bible!?!

[jason23296]

I think theist will overlook there biblical interpretations and flip flop between the variations in theological writing to which ever one's appeal to the emotional side rather than the logical side . Example creationist will argue that earth is to unique to be by "chance" reveal a rhetorical assertion that water exist only on earthAndAfter theyAre toldThere is water on mars they will say Well the bibleDoesn'tNecessaryDiscredit theProbability of creation applying to otherPlanets and notJust Earth

[banonKING]

unfortunately I agree with you 100% and disagree 0%. Some theist can be slippery beast and have very short memories. They need their chosen believe to be so "real" so much that they can disregard information that would discredit it or not make their deity look like a very decent being.

[jason23296]

Yes but some theist have a flawed logic by which they believe should be used to acquire knowledge. Some believe that the emotions play a part in determining the existence of a deity. For some they believe that if they assume there is a God based on the assumption that there has to be some kind of creator they will assume that because it makes them feel good that this is proof that God Exist because they'dBelieveThey would not haveTheseEmotionsOtherWiseAndm­ayAttributeTheseEmotionsToTheH­olySpirit

[banonKING]

Very true. From a christian perspective, they have been told time and time again that their "emotions" hold the "real truth". And anything to the contrary is wrong and sinful, because strong (blind) faith is celebrated and shooting down (disproving) the claims are shamed. This creates a system which keeps them in a situation where they can except bad evidence for their faith. This people usually conform to these rules in order to fit into their chosen community.

[jason23296]

banonKING yer statement

"ThisPeopleUsuallyConformToThe­seRulesInOrderToFitIntoTheirCh­osenCommunity. "

I think they assume orHave came to the conclusion that if everyone else believes it then there is most likely(According to there own understanding)a good reason why( God is real) and believe it most logical to accept the belief. Since we really logically can not choose belief but only logically affirm what seems logical according to there strategy by which they believe to be the most effective.

[jason23296]

At obtaining knowledge of the world. Aka (Theists flawed perception of what logic is) "everyone else is assumed to know there is a God therefore it must be and the fact I believe in God and yet stillRemain exuberant and blissful content with the Belief so it must be the holy spirit"

[jason23296]

At obtaining knowledge of the world.

[banonKING]

The Theist argument is flawed. They themselves don't often realize the flaw, or the actions they take to protect this belief. Even still, it is their choice to except evidence for or against the existence of their believes.

[neveruse513]

I'd make this guy a deal... lay down in stone the proper biblical interpretations giving the normative laws of morality as given to him by his god.

If all Christians agree that the list is exhaustive and perfect, I'll buy what he's saying.

[Freakeh411]

"God is not an irreducible primary!!"

Lol. What a loud of arbitrary non-sense, that I might add more importantly was completely unargued. You merely assert. It seems like more randian mobo. Its always good to support your beliefs with philosophy that is credited and respected in more arenas than a couple blog sites and your 9th grade english class. But if you took up some actual research you would realize even secularists make ms. rand the subject of comedic exploit.

hahaha...

[Dhorpatan]

"that I might add more importantly was completely unargued."

^^^What's wrong with you? It clearly said, "as I already proved in a prior video".

[Rijara]

Why make a point that objective morality exists due to a supernatural agent? Because there's no definitive way of falsifying it. Sometimes theists just bug the hell out of me.

[DancingRabbit52]

Yes, I can read.

As a polytheist/pantheist, I find I have a lot more in common with atheists and agnostics than with monotheists, Christian or otherwise. I don't belive that the Rede was dictated by the Goddess. It was written by Doreen Valiente based on similar earlier writings. It, like all other morality, it is a human product and not that of an all powerful transcendent deity. I find it useful as a moral guide.

[Dhorpatan]

@JBark

Blapperz doesn't think too highly of your

video, or it's points. See his recent comment above.

[blapperz]

This is hilarious. What is a binding objective morality that is prescriptive? What does that even mean? How can an ought be objective like descriptions are objective? Even with him reading off his computer screen he still sounds like he's making shit up.

[DancingRabbit52]

I can name you a non-monotheistic worldview that provides practical moral foundation: Wicca.

"Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill, An it harm none do what ye will."

[baxtar1963]

There are immoral thiests and athiests. There are moral thiests and athiests. This doesn't prove god exists. Natural selection proves morality. Everything works better with a team effort, hunting, battling, surviving therefore we take care of each other not because god said so but because we need to for survival.

[DoomedEarth]

I understand the difference, and agree there is a right and wrong for every situation. I do not agree that there is one true objective basis for this judgment. Also, if there was a real God our limited human minds would not be able to fully understand him as the complexity of his very nature would exceed our ability to comprehend it. Simply put, no human written text could ever get God right, no matter how many times and how many years they might try.

[Dhorpatan]

@Epydemic2020

I mean John as in vbfl920.

[Epydemic2020]

Just about every objection you presented demonstrates that you do not actually understand what jrsbarker was arguing.

[Dhorpatan]

@Epydemic2020

Your comment was a bare assertion, and fails accordingly. I thought you were making a concerted effort to ignore me like John and the other Christ fundies?

[Epydemic2020]

I don't think I ever said that I was going to ignore you. I got frustrated at you posting the same questions repeatedly while ignoring my answers... but that was about it.

[mecher3k]

I think he's a idiot, why? Because I said so!!!

Hey why not, that's all his video is. That and showing he's too afraid to actually think about what is good or wrong.

[KentHovindReturns]

But if right and wrong are different depending on the situation, then by definition it is subjective. Please, if you want to represent the Christian faith jrsbarker, please make an educated argument. I'm going to have to devote much more time to finding channels of educated Christians with real insight. Videos like this are a disappointment to me and any other Christian that happen to watch it.

[DoomedEarth]

Except that you ignore the fact that science does not claim one objective truth. Science is not as arrogant as religion, and is open to being changed with new evidence. Scientists understand that facts are subject to evidence. Maybe some day religion will get the hint and actually prove it's validity or change to meet the actual evidence available in the only world we can prove exists. Empathy controls morals more than any belief in God anyway. Those who lack empathy can become dangerous.

[crossoldman]

jrsbaker needs to explain his ontological foundation and then he needs to explain in that context why morals have changed since the OT. Christians love to babble about this stuff but when you get right down to it they seldom seem to know what they are talking about. My theory is that they accept so much BS so easily that they assume the rest of us to be as gullible.

[KentHovindReturns]

He did explain, in his own way. He gave the underwhelming argument of "cuz God done it" like so many other uneducated Christians. I will pray that intelligent Christians make videos to properly represent my religion. I apologize on behalf of the Christian community for all of the so called Christian apologists running wild that are not properly educated and have no real ability to conduct a proper debate.

[destronia123]

Prayer doesn't work. As a christian you should know that. :)

[destronia123]

The bible says gullibility and ignorance are virtues. What else would you expect fron christians?

[DoomedEarth]

Actually, morality is ALL SUBJECTIVE to your time and culture. If there was one true objective moral law, why the hell have the morals of mankind changed so much over time and vary so much from region to region? A simple look at the world around you disproves any possibility of objective moral law. The problem here is that you are unable to think for yourself, and therefore you can't figure out that every moral decision you make goes through your brain first to be processed.

[h8uall66]

I don't see how there can be any morality, in the objective sense, with God. Objective means independent of minds. If morality is merely the opinion of God, then it is by definition subjective.

[DancingRabbit52]

Philosophical jargon aside. What is there to prevent the people of a culture from inventing their own code of morality. I would say that this is how all codes of morality originated. Most things considered immoral by most cultures are also harmful to the culture and its members.

[h8uall66]

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. "Morality", when taken to it's unbiased basis, is simply behavior that is social, as opposed to anti-social. Moral codes follow from the needs of the societies in which they originate.

[Dhorpatan]

@Barks

What do you even mean by ontological moral foundation?

[DoomedEarth]

The meaning of Ontological is "the branch of metaphysics that studies the nature of existence or being as such" which Don Exodous2 already answered his question. Evolution placed empathy in our brains as a tool for the basic survival of species. His piranha example is perfect. The fact that he uses Ontological in his question is more or less trying to beg the question to make it look like there has to be a God. It's basic theists brainwashing showing in his method to defend religion.

[Dhorpatan]

@Barks

That's not an explanation. Saying there is no Ontological foundation, is an assertion. Don't you know the difference?

There's no Ontological foundation? Why? What is an Ontological foundation in the context you're referencing? Why do Theists have it, and Atheists don't? What secular worldview are you referring to? Why does that secular worldview not have an Ontological foundation, but Christianity does? Have you debunked all secular worldviews? Etc.

[TrenchantAtheist]

The text response at 1:56 is the most pertinent point in the whole discussion, in my opinion. An argument is neither logical nor coherent when it relies on an ignorance of the most basic definitions of the words entailed.